Guild Wars 2

Was munching some peanuts and was thinking – “what would my ideal PvP changes be like”, and realized many of them would be reverts of existing changes. I can guarantee 100% that none of these would ever be (re)implemented, so this thread is just for the lulz.

My dream list:

1. Solo q/ Ranked q (equal rewards)

2. Reverting of rank so r80 is still an unobtainable goal. Can be reworked with the current system to give infinite ranks, so there’s no limit to how high you can go. Also, all rank obtained from skyhammer is null and void.

3. PvP and PvE gear appearance is separate.

4. PU changes reversed

5. Stability can be corrupted to fear. And fear gets applied with damage anyway.

6. Option to turn off all flashy effects from skills.

7. Courtyard abomination is banished to separate q.

8. Dailies can always be completed within PvP alone

9. iLeap (3rd sword skill for mes) works as intended :’(

10. No need to spam a skill to ensure that it works

These are the biggies I can think of from the top of my head right now.

P Fun Daddy.1208:

bhagwad.4281:

Lexiceta.4156:

Explain? ok, Point assault has a huge advantage they know where point defender will eventually have to be i.e. the point itself with it’s limited space and with one exception no point has los barriers, where as point assaulter has many barriers and the freedom to move anywhere, this is not 1v1 , this is point assault and defense, as designed the advantage is given to point assault, this makes sense since the opposite would make the game pretty boring. But this not 1v1 where both players only have one objective, to defeat the other player. As a defender you have multiple objectives, prevent capped point from becoming decaped, prevent assaulting player from achieving a tactical or strategic advantage and lastly prevent re assault. Of course there are more such as assaults ability to disengage more easily etc etc but you get the point, pun intended. Assaulting player also has multiple objectives primary of which is decapping the point, so on so on defeating the other player may solve these objectives, but it not the goal as it is in 1v1. This why many teams try to defend points at choke locations on the map there by lessening the defenders disadvantage.

I think you’re getting confused between 1v1 and dueling. In dueling, the objective is to kill the other person. 1v1 is any situation where there are only 2 players in the immediate vicinity – hence, “1v1”.

And conquest has a lot of 1v1s. Therefore, the game has to be balanced around certain 1v1 situations also.

Also, curious about this statement of yours “As designed the advantage is given to point assault”. How do you know it was designed with this intention? Did the developers say something like this? Or did you just make this up on the spur of the moment?

It’s pretty obvious that the advantage will nearly always be to the assaulter rather than the defender, simply by nature of having multiple paths of approach and only one place you can defend from, and also the existence of stealth (surprise is a huge advantage).
I an also safely assume this is thought out and by design, because a game where the advantage is to the defender is extremely boring (think about it…).

I disagree. It makes most sense for neither to have an advantage. The surprise of stealth is precisely why people are asking for it to be toned down. It’s one thing for the attacker to have an advantage because of the way things are (because the way things are can be changed), and quite another for the attacker to have an advantage by design.

Also, the magnitude of the advantage has to be taken into consideration. If we feel that stealth gives too much of it, then stealth is OP. Mind you, I main a mesmer and you can imagine how much of a benefit stealth is to me. But having a fun and fair game is more important to me than simply boosting my class.

People cannot simply throw up their hands and say “Oh, 1v1s!” Balance for 1v1s is crucial and simply cannot be ignored.

rchu.8945:

bhagwad.4281:

Lexiceta.4156:

Explain? ok, Point assault has a huge advantage they know where point defender will eventually have to be i.e. the point itself with it’s limited space and with one exception no point has los barriers, where as point assaulter has many barriers and the freedom to move anywhere, this is not 1v1 , this is point assault and defense, as designed the advantage is given to point assault, this makes sense since the opposite would make the game pretty boring. But this not 1v1 where both players only have one objective, to defeat the other player. As a defender you have multiple objectives, prevent capped point from becoming decaped, prevent assaulting player from achieving a tactical or strategic advantage and lastly prevent re assault. Of course there are more such as assaults ability to disengage more easily etc etc but you get the point, pun intended. Assaulting player also has multiple objectives primary of which is decapping the point, so on so on defeating the other player may solve these objectives, but it not the goal as it is in 1v1. This why many teams try to defend points at choke locations on the map there by lessening the defenders disadvantage.

I think you’re getting confused between 1v1 and dueling. In dueling, the objective is to kill the other person. 1v1 is any situation where there are only 2 players in the immediate vicinity – hence, “1v1”.

And conquest has a lot of 1v1s. Therefore, the game has to be balanced around certain 1v1 situations also.

Conquest maps are cater to group vs group, which maxed at 5 per team. This is what I find the most hilarious in sPvP matches, people who died during any x vs 1 encounter, they spew out some venom like another classes joining in on a oncoming 1 vs 1 is wrong. What did you expect other players to do? form a line and wait for 1 vs 1 to be over, and winner fight the next person from the enemy group? Conquests are meant to be play as group, whatever means necessary to win by points.

That’s not what this is about. This is about recognizing the reality that in many situations, there will be only 2 people in the vicinity – 1v1s. And the outcomes of those fights can be absolutely crucial.

Your hypothetical scenario is a complete strawman, since no one is suggesting any such thing in the first place. No one complains about others joining a fight unless it’s hotjoin. At medium level of play, everyone understands the objectives.

Lol, that mesmer really hated you. But you were more or less just trolling. LoS’ing does nothing to help cap the point and the skill you displayed was (in my opinion) more about running around obstacles LoS (with the flesh wurm as well), than the build itself…

Lexiceta.4156:

Explain? ok, Point assault has a huge advantage they know where point defender will eventually have to be i.e. the point itself with it’s limited space and with one exception no point has los barriers, where as point assaulter has many barriers and the freedom to move anywhere, this is not 1v1 , this is point assault and defense, as designed the advantage is given to point assault, this makes sense since the opposite would make the game pretty boring. But this not 1v1 where both players only have one objective, to defeat the other player. As a defender you have multiple objectives, prevent capped point from becoming decaped, prevent assaulting player from achieving a tactical or strategic advantage and lastly prevent re assault. Of course there are more such as assaults ability to disengage more easily etc etc but you get the point, pun intended. Assaulting player also has multiple objectives primary of which is decapping the point, so on so on defeating the other player may solve these objectives, but it not the goal as it is in 1v1. This why many teams try to defend points at choke locations on the map there by lessening the defenders disadvantage.

I think you’re getting confused between 1v1 and dueling. In dueling, the objective is to kill the other person. 1v1 is any situation where there are only 2 players in the immediate vicinity – hence, “1v1”.

And conquest has a lot of 1v1s. Therefore, the game has to be balanced around certain 1v1 situations also.

Also, curious about this statement of yours “As designed the advantage is given to point assault”. How do you know it was designed with this intention? Did the developers say something like this? Or did you just make this up on the spur of the moment?

Elegie.3620:

Some builds are better at 1v1 than others, for sure. I don’t see the problem with that, though: as the OP has stated, the game is a team effort, if you find yourself dueling on a point when you don’t have the right build for it, then either you’re greedy (so be punished if you cannot overcome the build handicap), or you’ve got a big rotation issue (your role is to be doing something else somewhere else).

So at least we agree that 1v1s do have a role, and that they cannot be ignored. Great. Consequently, a build that is too good in 1v1s for all classes is clearly unbalanced.

choovanski.5462:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

Premade /= winning

Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.

In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.

Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.

And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.

People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.

There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?

they don’t get extra rewards. winning or losing while in a party gives you the same rewards as if you were not in one.

If you read the entire comment thread, the person I’m responding to is saying that if a team/solo Q is implemented, they should get higher rewards than the solo q.

Lexiceta.4156:

Not sure which matches you are playing or maybe it is terminology, in conquest you are defending or assaulting or both, hardly what one would call a 1v1, maybe you are thinking of custom arena. If you are fighting another player on the point in which your team controls you are at a serious disadvantage, hardly what anyone could think of calling a 1v1

Come again? Fighting on a point you control to prevent it from being decapped or capped can never be a 1v1 and is a serious disadvantage?

Could you explain why you think this?

Shadow.1345:

bhagwad.4281:

Shadow.1345:

Premade /= winning

Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.

In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.

Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.

And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.

People team up for different reasons. Not all of them do it for their team composition or to get ressed more or anything like that. In fact I bet the number 1 reason people queue up together is because they know each other and just want to enjoy a social game together with people they know instead of strangers.

There you go. You’re saying that people q up because they enjoy it. So why do they need to get extra rewards for something they will do anyway?

Shadow.1345:

Premade /= winning

Not every premade is some strategically thought out team composition. Not every group of people partied are even on voice chat. It’s just people that know each other and queue up together. They might be more inclined to res each other than some group of strangers but premades get beaten everyday by pugs. Not every premade gets beaten by pugs but everyday their are parties of people getting beat by 5 solo queuers.

In fact I am willing to bet that the over half of the groups queuing up together are not on voice chat or even all that good at pvp. They’re just queuing with guildies and friends because it’s more fun to get your kitten kicked with friends than 4 strangers.

Maybe…but why do people team up? Because it gives them better chances of winning. It allows them to select their team comp. It allows them to know each other’s builds. And as you mentioned, it allows them to coordinate better resses etc. Even if they’re not on voice chat, these basic advantages apply.

And if they can take the effort to form a team to improve their chances of winning, then that’s seriously enough to go to a team q where they can remain out of the hair of dedicated soloers IMHO.

Did you know that fights also happen and close and far? The typical game does not go like this:

a) Team A sends one person close. Team B sends one person to their close
b) Rest 4 people go mid and everyone fights there till timer ends
c) Profit…!

In a real match, lots of 1v1s take place. Saying “Oh, game is not balanced around 1v1s and it shouldn’t be”, is (I am sorry to say), ignorant. Lots of isolated, but yet crucial fights happen in a typical conquest game.

Bottom line: All maps are not courtyard.

Morwath.9817:

bhagwad.4281:

Morwath.9817:

-> Separate ques.
-> Give better rewards in premade que.
-> …
->Profit.

I don’t mind separate queues. But there is no reason whatsoever to give higher rewards for premades. If there are higher rewards for team q, then I will solo in team q – just like everyone did last time.

Premades are no more deserving of higher rewards just because they choose to form a team.

If there would be better rewards in team q, I guess you couldn’t que as solo ;-)
And obviously, premades deserve better rewards, because fighting organized teams is much more difficult than fightning soloQ players.

Last time Anet had a team q / solo q split, soloers could enter team q as well. And most people did simply because the rewards were better. Soloers are necessary to fill up the gaps. If individuals were not allowed, q times would soar to very very long heights.

Everyone I’ve spoken to so far likes to say that GW2 is social, and that they enjoy playing in teams, and it’s so satisfying, and that rewards are not important, blah blah blah. So why are rewards so suddenly crucial for teams?

If queuing up is so difficult…then don’t! No one is asking people to team up and play. The fact is that teaming up improves chances of victory. And if you have increased chances of victory, then you win more often. If you win more often, you automatically get nicer rewards. That’s how it works.

Queuing up is simply a choice. Just because it takes effort does not mean Anet needs to reward that. Playing without any skill utilities 6-10 is also very difficult. But just because it’s tough, doesn’t mean that Anet specially gives higher rewards for those who disable their utility bar!

Morwath.9817:

-> Separate ques.
-> Give better rewards in premade que.
-> …
->Profit.

I don’t mind separate queues. But there is no reason whatsoever to give higher rewards for premades. If there are higher rewards for team q, then I will solo in team q – just like everyone did last time.

Premades are no more deserving of higher rewards just because they choose to form a team.

MithranArkanere.8957:

In Both GW1 and GW2, the ‘skill queue’ has just 1 skill. Any additional presses will replace the next skill queued.

Many skills have an Aftercast Delay too.

So, during an aftercast delay, additional presses will just change the queued. Once queued skill is activated, you can queue another skill.

Because of this, in some cases, for some players, it may seem nothing is happening, what in actuality you are massing keys while aftercast delays are still taking place, and merely re-queuing the same skill. A higher latency will this more likely to happen.

If this was the problem, then pressing a skill key just once in the aftercast of another skill should immediately queue it up and will get executed without fail when the previous skill completes.

However, this does not happen since after the patch.

P.S: I was a GW1 player as well, so I know what’s supposed to happen and I also know when something is wrong and it’s not working like it should.

Deathmatch (at least 5v5) in GW2 is a very different beast compared to GW1. GW2 has too much skill spam, too many AoEs, too much CC, and no resource management. The end result is a complete mess with everyone simply trying to use the max AoE spells all the time, and CC’ing the other team.

It’s just too fast and not strategic enough. Oh, and don’t forget minions/pets/illusions making it look like there are 20 instead of 10. A lot of “bling” adds to the trouble, making it just about impossible to see what’s happening.

Galandil.9641:

In theory, the skills activation should work something like this: client recognizes the key press, sends the information to the server, server acknowledges the skill, it executes it and sends back the “skill executed” info to the client. You can check it when you get heavy lag (usually prior to a d/c), if the communication with the server is down you can see that the skill starts blinking when you press it but ofc it isn’t executed so it remains in “blinking mode” indefinitely until communication with the server is up again.

To the thieves, I noticed this while playing some pve with s/p with withdraw as heal.
If I try to use withdraw during the autoattack chain, I need to spam it on average almost 3-4 times before it’s acknowledged, it’s easier to notice this due to slower sword autoattacks. BUT, if I queue withdraw during the pistol whip execution, I only have to press it once and it’s always correctly queued and executed.

Could it be that it’s because of skills with aftercast timers/animations? PW doesn’t have them, while all sword autoattacks have them.

It’s definitely possible. But if so, it’s a new issue introduced by the patch.

Ross Biddle.2367:

bhagwad.4281:

Ross Biddle.2367:

bhagwad.4281:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Crow.1683:

am a PU mesmer i like to think of my self like batman i come out of no where bursting the kitten out of you and let police do the capping am the one who burst thy ele thy engi thy thief thy ranger and i kitt thy warrior and thy guard am invisible hand ( literally)

but in all seriousness me having different style doesnt make me bad i just serve another purpose

I came across a PU mes the other day running all the stealth skills. The thing is, because he’s dropping into stealth I know that all I have to do is duke in and out of the cap point, decap it, and play hide and seek with him. I don’t even need to use stealth, just LoS and teleport around ledges, casting phants when he comes out of stealth. The point gets decapped very quickly, and he has no way to recap it. So while we may not kill eachother, I’ve tied him up in a 1v1 on his point and he looses the match for his team because he’s not earning anything.

That’s the real trouble with PU burst from stealth. The predictability of it. Not even the predictability of the incoming burst, but the predictability of the gameplay surrounding the fight over conquest. If you’re successful with it, it’s only because your opponent doesnt know how to play the game, sorry to say.

The point you make is valid only if you are doing the capping. When facing a PU build, the roles will usually be reversed. You will be the one trying to hold the point and stop it from getting decapped. You know how fast that can happen, and you can’t afford to leave your circle.

The PU is not meant to hold points. It is meant to decap/kill. One or the other will happen.

Sure, but if im playing home point defender I’m going to be running a build that’ll counter such nonsense until help arrives. Might be a problem in a pug game with no TS, but with a propper comp and comms, yeah…

Pugs are the majority of games on GW2. If it’s not balanced in solo q, it’s not balanced at all. Team speak is a far distant cry from what most of us do.

Meh, a bit of pre match text planning can make a pug team work wonders. Just takes one person to start the conversation. And more often than not there’s at least one other person on your team with a clue about how to pvp.

This leads me to conclude that you haven’t really soloed and tried talking to your teammates. If there is one rule to follow, it’s this – you cannot rely on anyone else. You have to be self sufficient and treat what other people do as an act of god. You cannot influence it in any way.

It’s the only way to keep your sanity.

I would bet on globs of ectoplasm. Even in GW1, they were the de facto currency for large amounts. They retain their value extremely well.

zone.1073:

bhagwad.4281:

On my necro, I’m finding that I need to press a skill several times rapidly to ensure that it activates. If I press it once, it’s not queued up…this has often been my downfall since before the patch I was used to a “press it and have faith it will work” approach.

Does this happen to you as well?

Edit: Only for skills with cast times.

Actions have a queue system, where if multiple skills are pressed in succession, some skills have priorities over others and will cancel the others. Heal, for example, will usually cancel out any other abilities in queue.

So yes you do have to spam the skill if you want to 100% ensure it will work right then and there. Otherwise if you rotate through a bunch of skills pressing them just once each, the skills will make your character think and change priority left and right, and you’ll just be sitting there casting and doing nothing.

It works with other classes though. Thief skills have a teeny tiny bit of casting lag, but they are all pretty equal in priority. So, if you press thief skills once and “have faith”, they usually happen in the exact sequence that you pushed the skills in.

But obviously something has changed after the patch. I’ve been playing for 3 years since beta and I know what it felt like before. Before, I could press a skill button while an existing one was casting, and immediately after, the skill whose button was pressed would activate.

I’m not talking about pressing 1,2,3,4 buttons successively. I’m talking about pressing just one button once. And something has definitely changed after the patch. I noticed it within 5 minutes of logging on that day.

Zelulose.8695:

Yup same issue but I have began double, triple, and quadruple clicking to make skills work.

Same here. I basically have to spam the skill for it to work even once.

I’ve been searching youtube and reddit for some good guides to events in dry top. Basically I want a complete run through without any cuts to show the events and more importantly, how to reach them.

For example, I see some event on some high cliff and have no clue how to get there. Map chat isn’t very helpful and the videos I’ve seen simply cut to the action without showing the access point or the jumps.

If anyone knows of such a resource, I’d really appreciate it if you can share the link with me!

On my necro, I’m finding that I need to press a skill several times rapidly to ensure that it activates. If I press it once, it’s not queued up…this has often been my downfall since before the patch I was used to a “press it and have faith it will work” approach.

Does this happen to you as well?

Edit: Only for skills with cast times. Also, I’ve been playing for 3 years since beta and I have this problem only after the latest patch…

Akrasia.5469:

After reading all this I think necros should have a stealth skill. It’s thematic, Dark scary monster appears out of no where. How many movie monsters (Jason, Freddie etc) just vanished when the victim looks back. Vampires vanish in a puff of smoke or swarm of bats. Our escape and possible answer to mobile characters should be some kind of stealth and better pulls. Our teleport and pulls would work better (even slow as they are) if our target didn’t know which direction they were coming from.
Agree? Disagree? Or just know it may never happen.

How about a Master trait called Ghost Form where the necro seems to dissolve into a pool of blood (leaving behind a cool graphic) when they use their heal skill granting them stealth and mist form for 3 seconds.
OR an elite skill that does the same thing for a 5 second duration but the necro can’t attack in that form.

Oh no. I’d like to see the necro get some roaming based skills too. But not more stealth. It’s a terrible mechanic!

Ross Biddle.2367:

bhagwad.4281:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Crow.1683:

am a PU mesmer i like to think of my self like batman i come out of no where bursting the kitten out of you and let police do the capping am the one who burst thy ele thy engi thy thief thy ranger and i kitt thy warrior and thy guard am invisible hand ( literally)

but in all seriousness me having different style doesnt make me bad i just serve another purpose

I came across a PU mes the other day running all the stealth skills. The thing is, because he’s dropping into stealth I know that all I have to do is duke in and out of the cap point, decap it, and play hide and seek with him. I don’t even need to use stealth, just LoS and teleport around ledges, casting phants when he comes out of stealth. The point gets decapped very quickly, and he has no way to recap it. So while we may not kill eachother, I’ve tied him up in a 1v1 on his point and he looses the match for his team because he’s not earning anything.

That’s the real trouble with PU burst from stealth. The predictability of it. Not even the predictability of the incoming burst, but the predictability of the gameplay surrounding the fight over conquest. If you’re successful with it, it’s only because your opponent doesnt know how to play the game, sorry to say.

The point you make is valid only if you are doing the capping. When facing a PU build, the roles will usually be reversed. You will be the one trying to hold the point and stop it from getting decapped. You know how fast that can happen, and you can’t afford to leave your circle.

The PU is not meant to hold points. It is meant to decap/kill. One or the other will happen.

Sure, but if im playing home point defender I’m going to be running a build that’ll counter such nonsense until help arrives. Might be a problem in a pug game with no TS, but with a propper comp and comms, yeah…

Pugs are the majority of games on GW2. If it’s not balanced in solo q, it’s not balanced at all. Team speak is a far distant cry from what most of us do.

Sigmoid.7082:

Bottom line: Roles and playstyles have to come from builds, and not from classes.

As long as classes have inherent differences is class design and functionality there wont be equality. Some classes ,because of design, are going to inherently be better at some things than others. Its literally part of the design of the game.

Some classes have weaknesses and shortcomings by design because the game is balanced around 5v5 and its meant to e if you cant do something or your classes is inherently bad at it that someone else on another class that may be better at that aspect of the game by design can cover you for it.

If you are roaming by yourself in a roaming build regardless of what because you are just one person on one class you will suffer the shortcomings of that class or build because of design. You may have the best roaming build your class can offer but doesnt stop others doing better at you than it on another class just because they are that class. Nobody should be able to do everything just as well as everyone else just because they want to.

We’ll have to disagree. Mind you, nothing is stopping Anet from adding a few necro options for either:

1. Teleport (reliably I mean…you can’t count on DP to hit a 1200 range enemy)
2. Reflects
3. Some movement skills

None of these options are inherently antithetical to the necromancer. Classes are different, yes. The mark of a well designed difference is one that allows you to do the same things differently. It’s simply not a good option to say “xyz class is bad at abc”. The ideal is that you should be able to say “xyz build is bad at abc”.

No one wants to do everything. But everyone wants to be able to do each thing individually.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Crow.1683:

am a PU mesmer i like to think of my self like batman i come out of no where bursting the kitten out of you and let police do the capping am the one who burst thy ele thy engi thy thief thy ranger and i kitt thy warrior and thy guard am invisible hand ( literally)

but in all seriousness me having different style doesnt make me bad i just serve another purpose

I came across a PU mes the other day running all the stealth skills. The thing is, because he’s dropping into stealth I know that all I have to do is duke in and out of the cap point, decap it, and play hide and seek with him. I don’t even need to use stealth, just LoS and teleport around ledges, casting phants when he comes out of stealth. The point gets decapped very quickly, and he has no way to recap it. So while we may not kill eachother, I’ve tied him up in a 1v1 on his point and he looses the match for his team because he’s not earning anything.

That’s the real trouble with PU burst from stealth. The predictability of it. Not even the predictability of the incoming burst, but the predictability of the gameplay surrounding the fight over conquest. If you’re successful with it, it’s only because your opponent doesnt know how to play the game, sorry to say.

The point you make is valid only if you are doing the capping. When facing a PU build, the roles will usually be reversed. You will be the one trying to hold the point and stop it from getting decapped. You know how fast that can happen, and you can’t afford to leave your circle.

The PU is not meant to hold points. It is meant to decap/kill. One or the other will happen.

Sigmoid.7082:

bhagwad.4281:

Roe.3679:

So what you’ve been doing is forcing necro into a roaming role even though it’s been known for years to have weaknesses in that area, and then complaining when better roaming classes have an advantage. This is the definition of forcing a round peg into a square hole, and you’re complaining that it’s not fitting.

Again, he’s complaining that being good or bad in roaming should be a function of your build, not your class.

Some classes have to be innately better at something than other classes else there would be no reason at all to have more than one class in the game. Sure you can spec for something build wise but doesnt mean you are going to be as effective at it as another class built to do the same thing. Sure you could argue that “play your way, you build” but we know for a fact each class has a design and a designed role/philosophy behind it.

No one’s saying all the classes have to play in the same way. That is what mechanics are for. Adrenaline, Shatters, DS…these have nothing to do with roles in a team. There is no rule that says Adrenaline = better bunker, better damage, better roaming etc.

The classes are all supposed to play differently. However, each and every one of them must be able to fulfill every single role depending on how they are built. So for example, even if a mesmer is a light armor, they should be able to spec as bunker if necessary via evades, reflects, (some) stealth, CC etc.

Bottom line: Roles and playstyles have to come from builds, and not from classes.

Roe.3679:

So what you’ve been doing is forcing necro into a roaming role even though it’s been known for years to have weaknesses in that area, and then complaining when better roaming classes have an advantage. This is the definition of forcing a round peg into a square hole, and you’re complaining that it’s not fitting.

Again, he’s complaining that being good or bad in roaming should be a function of your build, not your class.

Laraley.7695:

Caedmon.6798:

Can’t kill the bunker huh… ? Right right…Dps is insane atm,if you have issues killing a bunker,mate..you have issues !

I did play bunker guard for couple of games and I never got killed in a 1v1, I don’t think it’s possible really. Bunker specs also gained additional stats, which helps their survability/healing.

His specific complaint is that the bunker killed him!. In which case, I guess it’s not a bunker after all :P

Zalavaaris.5329:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Rock- “Nerf paper please paper is OP!!”

Ps: scissor is balanced

you’re missing my point.
my point is, every class can build to be either paper, rock or scissors.
necro can only go paper or rock. they don’t have the scissors option.

i mean necros dont have the ability to handle kiting builds on even grounds but every other class can build themselves to handle kiting builds.

Since you can ONLY be one spec at one time it doesnt matter because there will ALWAYS be a hard counter.

Those hard counters should counter builds, not classes. The philosophy of Anet is that all classes can play all roles. There are no dedicated healers, damage dealers, or tanks. The builds you choose determine what role you play. The class you choose should be able to spec any type of build and fulfill any role. Including that of roamer.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zalavaaris.5329:

Rock- “Nerf paper please paper is OP!!”

Ps: scissor is balanced

you’re missing my point.
my point is, every class can build to be either paper, rock or scissors.
necro can only go paper or rock. they don’t have the scissors option.

i mean necros dont have the ability to handle kiting builds on even grounds but every other class can build themselves to handle kiting builds.

I agree with this. Every class should be able to build for every aspect of the game and every situation. Of course, they can’t be everything at one time, but to say that an entire class in general is bad at something…that is not acceptable.

If the bunker was able to kill you, then it’s not really a “bunker” is it? Remember the guardians of old sitting and camping spots with staff? That was a bunker.

Attrition is a strategy like all others. Not everyone likes the high risk/high reward style of gameplay. You can still burst bunkers down if they get careless. It’s just that now you’re not going to be able to just press a button and win.

I’m collecting all the Ambrite skins and each reward track gives me an insect and some 350 geodes or so (varies because of the piles of silky sand). I’ve collected 12 insects, but have geodes only for 8 of them so far. Which means after getting all 16 insects, I’ll have to repeat the track around 6 more times.

This also means I will have to throw away 6 additional insects which seems…incredibly wasteful. Don’t you think Anet should give us more geodes to prevent such a waste by having to destroy earned insects?

I mean..you’re literally trashing the most important reward of the track…!

I’ve been using this build and have made the following modifications to suit my playstyle:

1. I take Foot in the Grave
2. I take DS cool down reduction
3. I take healing when coming out of DS

My playstyle now revolves around constantly jumping in and out of DS every 7 seconds (with every third rotation casting torment and siphon). This means I:

1. Get stab for 3 seconds
2. Heal for 2k (and allies)
3. Apply 10 seconds of AoE weakness and some bleeds (and weakness in general all the time thanks to weakening shroud)

Every 7.5 seconds.

This combined with my wells, constant “dagger 1” spam, and condi transfer keep me alive and I can deal out some good damage.

Today for the first time, I killed one of these new GS/Hammer warriors with insane quickness and rampage. Twice! Big time validation

P.S I’m also messing around with well of blood – the additional well makes it seem that I’m always in the middle of something dangerous, taking a bit of pressure off me in team fights. Not sure how that’s working out yet – have to still see if the loss of CD and condi removal is worth it.

Mr Snotty Pants.3980:

And it’s a struggle. This was a sword/sword melee build I enjoyed in PvE.

In the old system there weren’t any GM traits I cared too much about. I dipped into domination for empowered illusions and chaos for illusionary defense but didn’t want anything higher up in those trees. But you can’t do that anymore.

So what’s the current thinking on phantasm builds?

I’m leaning towards Dueling and Inspiration and maybe Domination. That seems to push me towards interrupts and maybe mantras..?

I empathize. I never used to use any GM traits either – they just didn’t seem to fit the playstyle of phantasms. Either they focused on interrupts, or shatters, boon stripping…but nothing phantasm related.

Sadly, this last patch has made me give up my phantasm build. What with the high burning and the numerous new dangerous traits (both offense and defense) given to other classes (like heightened focus on warrior), I’m no longer able to keep up. Not to mention that shatter mesmers themselves got a huge boost and with something like PU, simply attritioning them takes too long and allows them ample time to set up their burst.

However if I had to go phantasms, my lines would depend on my weapons. I preferred sword/focus + scepter/pistol, so I would take Dueling, Inspiration, and chaos. The Chaotic Interruption GM trait is the closest thing to useful for a phantasm build since I get two interrupts via my focus and pistol – but really, my build wasn’t built for interruption so it was a bonus if it occurred. Very sad that we’re now forced to take useless GM traits when there’s nothing good for phantasms.

The Inspiration line at least has a good GM trait where you get regeneration from phants and this coupled with the chaos line that gives you 3 secs protection when you gain regeneration (15s ICD) synergizes nicely.

But I’m afraid it’s really not just viable anymore. Anet has done a good job of making shatter so much stronger that phantasms are just pushed out of the equation. All the complaints you hear about mesmers on the forums are not directed towards our phantasms, but towards shatters.

So while I tried to make my phantasm build work (and it didn’t do too badly – after all, I’ve been using it for a long time, and I know how to work it), I just felt too crippled by not taking shatter – which I hate to do because I don’t like bursty (literally!) playstyles.

So I’ve just rolled a necro now to suit my attrition style of play . I wish it wasn’t like this. In my heart, I love the mesmer playstyle best – I think it suits me better than any other. But Anet (and others on this forum) think that Mesmer = shatter, and as long as that mindset is prevalent, and as long as Anet continues to buff shatter and show special treatment towards it, using phantasms is just too much of an opportunity cost over shatter builds.

I’m liking the tankiness of this build and its damage. As with all necro builds, the weak point is probably the active heal – easy to get interrupted accidentally or purposely – maybe use the well that provides stability first…not sure.

I have a lot to learn – mostly with regard to CD management and when to use which wells. Hard not to panic and blow them all

MidoriMarch.8067:

iLeap doesnt seem to be working properly.

Anyone else got the same problem?

It’s very badly bugged. Doesn’t work half the time for me. Really bad after the patch.

Necrotize.2974:

bhagwad.4281:

To those who’re saying “stealth doesn’t contest a point”, that depends on how fast the PU mesmer can kill you by superior positioning granted by long stealth duration. If it’s fast enough, then killing you + gaining the point after your death is an excellent compromise.

Also, for those saying “long stealth durations…simply avoid the burst etc”. The point is that the mesmer (or thief) can break stealth at any time. They don’t have to wait out the full duration of stealth to initiate their burst. This uncertainty means you have no idea when to blow your CDs. If you dodge too early, then you just have to pray that the mesmer has chosen that moment to burst you.

The whole point of stealth is its unpredictablity. You know what…this gives me a great idea for modification to stealth. Stealth effect:

Stealth: You cannot break stealth till the duration ends. You cannot do any damage in stealth.

I guarantee you that if this change occurs, all the complaints about stealth will end. Why? Because you have removed one key element – the unpredictability of when to come out of stealth.

What do you think?

I doubt the complaining will end. People would still be annoyed that they can’t target the mesmer until stealth ends. And especially in PvP, these condi mesmers aren’t exactly bursting anyone from stealth yet those seem to be the builds complainers are most vocal about. Probably because PU condi is/was a problem in WvW roaming, but not so much in PvP, where Anet seems to focus a lot of their balancing time.

But that change itself would single-handedly cripple thieves’ stealth attacks and probably destroy main-hand dagger for thieves. Even if they could somehow use backstab at say the final second of stealth, it’d still mean giving your opponents a guaranteed 3 seconds to recover/prepare. People are complaining about stealth because countering it isn’t as simple as slotting a certain utility or using a certain skill at a certain time. Its application is very open ended and suits the mesmer well, meaning skilled players can do amazing things with the help of stealth. Anet seems pretty adamant about leaving stealth as is and instead giving certain classes more reveal access and uptime.

I understand. I feel however, that if the stealthed person gets a 3 second respite, then the opponent needs to get one too. It’s not like a boon which can be removed, nor an invul which has extremely long CDs and short durations. And in invul you can see the timer, know when it’s going to expire etc. So the opponent has some information.

I feel that by making stealth durations mandatory, the opponent gets some information as well.

P.S. I just put this up as a general suggestion…

I think the essential problem of stealth is the unpredictability in the sense that you can choose to burst immediately, or towards the end of your stealth. With long stealth durations like PU, this means you have no idea when the attack is going to come, no tells, no information. At least with the thief you know they need to get close (and behind) you, so your auto attack chains advance and you know the guy is there.

When people say “Stealth doesn’t cap a point”, that is true of course, until you realize that the purpose of the PU mesmer is not to keep the point contested, but to kill you in short order, and then take the point gaining 5 + the point. The few ticks you get in your favor by the mesmer stealthing is not enough to offset this.

So here’s a suggestion to change stealth itself.

You cannot break out of stealth until the duration has run out. And of course, you can’t do any damage in stealth either.

Possible addition: You take no damage in stealth…

This has two effects:

1. It discourages overly long stealth durations if the purpose is to get control of a point

2. It introduces an element of information, which is currently absent with stealthing. The opponent knows approximately when you’re likely to come out and thus stealth becomes a defensive state that can also position you whenever you want.

The end result will be quick bursts of stealth for strategic purposes and not unpredictably long durations.

As a mesmer, it took me a long time to learn to deal with thieves – and never fully successfully. Stealth was always a cheap tactic, with limited counterplay. Now I find my class starting to use it overmuch as well and it kinda shames me to see the mesmer played in a way we all knew was unfun.

To those who’re saying “stealth doesn’t contest a point”, that depends on how fast the PU mesmer can kill you by superior positioning granted by long stealth duration. If it’s fast enough, then killing you + gaining the point after your death is an excellent compromise.

Also, for those saying “long stealth durations…simply avoid the burst etc”. The point is that the mesmer (or thief) can break stealth at any time. They don’t have to wait out the full duration of stealth to initiate their burst. This uncertainty means you have no idea when to blow your CDs. If you dodge too early, then you just have to pray that the mesmer has chosen that moment to burst you.

The whole point of stealth is its unpredictablity. You know what…this gives me a great idea for modification to stealth. Stealth effect:

Stealth: You cannot break stealth till the duration ends. You cannot do any damage in stealth.

I guarantee you that if this change occurs, all the complaints about stealth will end. Why? Because you have removed one key element – the unpredictability of when to come out of stealth.

What do you think?

The big difference between thief stealth burst and mesmer stealth burst is range. When a thief is in stealth, I know he’s somewhere around me. My autoattacks have a chance to hit him, which makes it a bit more risky for him to stand around taking time to position. The mesmer’s stealth burst can be initiated from range which is one reason why it’s more difficult to counter.

Choppy.4183:

They’re using Heightened Focus, a grandmaster trait in the Discipline line.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heightened_Focus

Some may even be packing Frenzy (a quickness stance), but most will just have the trait.

Wow…no ICD to this huh? (at least none that’s mentioned in the wiki)

Since the patch, I’m seeing a lot of really fast warriors. It might be my imagination, but often they’re paired up with guardians and wow…they move fast, stomp fast, and I can’t get them off me. They usually use a hammer and greatsword.

Which comp is this?

denis.9487:

How do you factor in illusions dying from just being there? Why not shatter?

Honestly with 2-3 illusions out, it’s not easy for me to see their health at all times. Not to mention that if they indeed get hit, they they die too quickly for me to shatter them. Usually I spawn my duelist well away from the action. They provide me with constant ranged DPS at a safe distance. The warden on the other hand is meant to be right in the middle of the action. I hide inside its reflects against a number of classes, and also to protect myself against stealthed thieves who hesitate to take damage to get to me.

Now I can shatter the warden because it doesn’t last too long, but that would mean my duelist would run in and die as well. Since my duelist is my source of long term pressure from far, shattering would mean I lose that benefit. If I could choose which illusions live and which ones die when I shatter, that would be much more beneficial. But as things stand, they all get taken out – the useful ones and the almost dead ones.

Archon.6481:

Analogy with US/USSR is flawed because there was an equilibrium situation that was beneficial to annotation. In a 1v1, one has to live and one has to die. Two opponents in conquest will not be happy just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

You either kill or be killed. Living peacefully in tension is not an option.

In such a situation, your 300k skill is no defence at all. Use it and have a 50% chance to win. Don’t use it and you die since you have no other defence and the other guy will simply run you down and kill you.

Now you tell me which is better? A 50% chance to win, or 0 chance to win? The alternative of peacefully watching each other does not exist.

Archon.6481:

Yes, the necro can switch out at any time, but what I mean is that the necro cannot immediately use his weapon skills.

When you say “immediately”, what do you mean? The time it takes to exit death shroud is instantaneous. So you must be referring to the milliseconds it takes to press the DS key and get back normal skills yes? And DS being on CD has nothing to do with it since we’re talking examining two necros – one with the ability of DS and one without DS. Who is better off do you think?

Archon.6481:

I see the problem. You are using the incorrect definition of opportunity cost.

That depends on how you’re framing the problem. If you’re looking at the facet of who/when to use steal then you’re right. If you’re looking at the facet of ever using steal at all (regardless of whom), then I’m right. I’m framing the problem in terms of the latter, not the former.

I think you’re deriving your entire argument from the fact that steal brings you closer to your opponent. Just to hammer this point home, if steal didn’t teleport you and instead left you where you were, would you still be thinking this way?

Let’s look at the necro then – tell me…what is the downside or opportunity cost to a necro going into DS? Remember – we’re talking about the act of entering DS itself – not the time at which it’s entered. In other words, imagine 2 necros – one with DS and one without. The one with DS enters it and exits it immediately afterwards. Is the one who used DS paying a price that puts them in a worse position than the necro who doesn’t have DS?

Now ask that same question of the warrior’s adrenaline skill. If you’ve made it this far into my reasoning, I think you’ll see the point I’m getting at.

Also, consider that in terms of a thief’s steal, closing the gap to your opponent can be a good thing or a bad thing (most of the time when you use steal you indeed want to get closer, but let’s pretend for the sake of argument).

However, the disappearance of a mesmer’s illusions is always a bad thing. There is literally no situation in which a mesmer will say “I wish my illusions were dead for no other benefit”.

Hence the mesmer is in a worse position than the thief. Because most of the time you want to get close to your opponent using steal. If Anet were to tomorrow change the functionality of steal to “no longer teleports you”, most thieves would call it a nerf. But regardless of that, a mesmer’s shatter skills always impose an immediate an unequivocal cost.

Archon.6481:

bhagwad.4281:

1. Consider thief A and thief B
2. Thief A has access to Steal
3. Thief B has no access to the steal skill at all
4. Thief A uses steal
5. Thief B has nothing
End result: Thief A is at the very least equal to thief B. Most likely he’ll be better off because of the boons, and if he lands it, then all kinds of nice things happen as well.

I can prove your analogy flawed by finding a single example of where thief A will be worse off if he steals.

Thief A is 1100 range away and has 2 health. Thief B’s steal is on CD and he has 20k health. Thief A will die if he steals, so he definitely will not be “better off” if he steals.

bhagwad.4281:

Ergo: Steal is a free additional utility with no cost.

False, it has an opportunity cost, in fact, i listed an example above where steal is bad if yo use it. If there really was no way to be worse off by stealing, then thieves would be spamming steal on CD. The reason they don’t is that they are wasting resources. They would be inflicting opportunity costs upon themselves because they are potentially ignoring some of steal’s benefits: teleport, daze, boon strip.

No one is forcing thief A to steal . Thief A has the “option” to steal. It’s not a thief class mechanic that steal is used automatically after CD.

Kako.1930:

That’s why I said elementalist. Or ranger. Both can be INCREDIBLY hard to kill while still managing to remain offensive. (Nothing bursty like zerkers but it’s not non-existent like cleric).

Celestial elementalist with a staff, or d/d, or d/f would all work well. Trait into water, arcana, and whatever other trait line you like. I use earth for the added stability and Diamond Skin trait, but you could also go with fire for more burning or air for more direct damage.

Bunker condi ranger (settler or celestial amulet) is also pretty strong. Especially with beastmatery and your pet F2 skill inflicting taunt. Even with stability or diamond skin or condi removal or evades/immunities taunt will make your character attack the pet instead of the ranger and so it’s incredibly strong atm. Every time you press F2 your enemy will be interrupted for 2 seconds and then have to re-target you.

Those would be my top 2 choices, but minion master necromancers are pretty decent atm too.

Hmm…what a pity. The only two classes I’ve never played are ranger and ele! Guess I might have to give them a whirl…

Laraley.7695:

bhagwad.4281:

Ok, let me say this once again. I do NOT want a zerker build. I want an attrition build.

But honey, then you would have to stop playing phantasm builds and say how you lose damage with that.

Since when do necros have phantasms?

P.S. Wonder if I can delete troll responses.

Ok, let me say this once again. I do NOT want a zerker build. I want an attrition build.

Guys…attrition is the opposite of one shotting people. Attrition means a fight in which you slowly maneuver your way to victory while holding a point. I don’t want to one shot people. Because one shotting them means you have to go glass cannon and I don’t like playing glass cannon.

In fact, one shotting people = cheese. What I’m asking for is the opposite of cheese!