Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

bhagwad.4281:

What @Fay said. Phantasm builds are pretty tough for me to build now for the following reasons:

A similar argument could be made for shatter builds:

You want Domination, for Rending Shatter, Shattered Concentration, and Mental Anguish.
You want Duelling, for Blinding Dissipation and Deceptive Evasion
You might want Chaos, for Bountiful Disillusionment
You might want Inspiration, for Restorative Illusions and Mental Defence
You definitely want Illusions, for a lot of reasons.

Can’t have’em all, so which do you choose? Particularly since, even for a shatter build, you may well make some decisions based on reasons other than what gives you the best bonuses when shattering (keeping yourself alive, for instance).

I think this is where the current system arguably helps build diversity. Instead of having one build that cherry-picks all the phantasm traits, you have to make decisions about which ones are more important to you. It’s actually possibly easier to make the decisions with phantasm builds, because IMO you don’t really need Chaos (the combo of Illusionary Membrane and Illusionary Inspiration is actually, IMO, antisynergetic due to Membrane having a 3s duration versus a 15s cooldown: I’d rather have the protection when I actually need it, such as when Metaphysical Rejuvenation triggers, than being triggered by a phantasm when I’m not under attack at all). So where before you might have one optimum phantasm build, now you need to make decisions of which traits you really want.

It’s possible that the end result is genuinely that phantasms have been made weaker than they should be, and the phantasm traits should be improved to account for the fact that you can’t have all of them now. But that’s a separate issue: having to make choices between the traits seems to be the system working as intended. The mesmer isn’t the only profession that’s having to make difficult choices: a shroud-focused necromancer really does have good traits for shroud-oriented builds spread throughout their specialisations, and it’s going to get even more complicated for necromancers that want to go Reaper.

Honestly I’ve never played shatter in 3 years of mesmering, so what you’re saying about having to give up some traits for others might well be true. I’m not contesting that.

However, I feel that the patch treated phantasms and shatters unequally. Shatters got a lot of tasty additional functionality with the patch like blind, stability, shatter recharge reduction, IP etc. I don’t think anyone on this forum can deny that a shatter mesmer today is very much more powerful than it was. There are just so many new benefits that having to choose between them is rational.

With phantasms, apart from the base 15% increase, Santa Claus hasn’t been good to us. We still have to deal with pretty much the same few traits – and they’re spread out between trait lines that we can’t access unlike pre-patch.

Now here’s the thing – this patch has increased damage across the board significantly. So we have a worse build in an environment where everyone else is hitting a lot harder.

It’s not that I mind having to choose between phantasm traits. It’s that there aren’t that many to begin with compared to shatter, and we haven’t gotten any new ones unlike shatter.

Happy about: Mantra recharging fix

Unhappy about: No fix for duelist’s discipline!!

Olba.5376:

What’s with people and titles?

Everyone seems to want a title for everything.

It’s an MMO. The whole idea is to show off..

Golgathoth.3967:

Not that I know of, but we did get a nifty hat.

kitten , I think I deleted the hat…

Oh ok. But nothing for the pre-purchasers of the original release?

SlimChance.6593:

oh.. so the 2.75 second channel is “insta” now.

And nevermind that in order to safely charge that “insta” channel, the Mesmer has to use a stealth or blink or decoy or MI or TW or run away to cast that “insta” channel.

Before the patch, we would have to wait 30 seconds to channel MoD again. And waiting 2.75 seconds is actually faster than waiting 5 seconds for the CD of MoD. So it’s actually less of a wait.

Besides – you’re skirting the actual point. Name one class with the requisite number of stunbreaks/blocks/invul frames to outdo a MoD chain of 6 stuns. Not to mention of course that those defensive abilities will also be used to negate some burst.

Thank you for the guide. Love your videos! Nemesis provides hands down the best tutorials on GW2.

SlimChance.6593:

Um.. what? six of them?

Sure. Harmonious mantras gives you 3 MoDs. And if it’s been 30 seconds since the mesmer’s last fight, they get to insta-channel it again for another 3 (can easily be done in stealth of course)

That’s six stuns insta ranged stuns with CS.

ResJudicator.7916:

The counter is to bait out the MOD, or stunbreak/port/block/invuln/weakness the follow-up burst and then counterburst. Rampage war is probably the worst counter to mesmer, since he can just moa the rampage (or blink away).

Best counters is still a well played D/P thief, who can time his blinds & mug (for weakness application + interrupt). But it’s closer to a 50/50 fight now, rather than the 90/10 it used to be.

There’s not just one MoD. There are six of them that can be chained with an interval of 5 seconds thanks to recharging mantras in the background. That’s six chained instant stuns from range. Good luck having that many stunbreakers, invul/blocks available.

Was wondering if there’s a title for players who pre-purchase the game. Either the original GW2 early access weekend 3 years ago, or the new HoT pre-purchase…

How do necros generate LF out of combat?

Can you imagine the outcry if thief got invulnerable frames? . I’m sure thieves would love it though…

What @Fay said. Phantasm builds are pretty tough for me to build now for the following reasons:

1. I want Domination for the 15% damage increase. Unfortunately this means I’m pretty much forced to take GS. GS is a very offensive weapon, and I prefer focus for defence. The domination line is very heavily focused on interrupts/dazing and shatter.

Needless to say, phantasm builds don’t (hardly ever) shatter

2. Chaos contains the very important “Illusionary Membrane” which synergizes with “Illusionary Inspiration” in Inspiration. Unfortunately, the Chaos GM traits are again focused around shatter, interruption and stealth – not conducive to phantasms.

3. Illusions has very useful traits for phantasm, but now I can’t take 4 trait lines! So I’m pretty much forced to give up my either Chaos or Illusions – both of which absolutely kill a phatasm build.

Pre-patch, I would take no GM trait. I could get almost everything I wanted. The only trade off was whether I would take the 15% inc. damage in Dom, or the 10% toughness to condi.

The next problem is that shatters have been tremendously boosted with lower CDs, and more effects. A build’s viability also depends on the opportunity cost. By taking phantasms, I’m getting a worse build that I had pre-patch but to make matters worse, the shatter builds are now far, far better than they were.

This is another reason why phantasm builds are dead.

Finally when Chrono hits and I want the trait where shattered phantasms respawn, what on earth am I going to give up? Can I give up dueling? Can I give up the defence from Chaos? Can I give up warden reflects from inspiration?

I honestly think that phantasm builds with Chrono will have zero viability. As it is, most of my move valuable traits are scattered around all the trees. Chrono will just dilute the pool further.

The entirety of the problems stem from the fact that we are now forced to invest 100% in a tree. We can’t pick and choose. If I go chaos, I have to take chaotic dissipation. If I go Inspiration, I have to use ineptitude. Previously I could save the points and take something more valuable even if it wasn’t a GM trait.

So much for build diversity. The patch effectively killed phantasm only builds and made shatter/lockdown (with stealth) the sole viable means of play.

Though I see the boonsharing mesmer is doing quite well. Not my playstyle, but it’s unique at least.

Keep in mind that unranked is the unofficial solo q. Most teams are well mannered and decent enough to not go unranked q against soloers. There are still those who are a bit ill mannered, but what that’s just something we have to live with.

I too am struggling with taking Soul Reaping…problem is, Blood magic gives me the following:

1. Well CD and Prot
2. Warhorn locust lasts longer
3. Dagger movement speed
4. And of course, vampiric

As you said, the LF generation is lower without soul marks. My primary method of generation is Locust swarm with 50% greater effectiveness. Essentially the idea is simply to pop locus and AA. The cripple ensures the other guy has difficulty running away from me.

It’s a very tough choice – soul reaping vs blood magic. I was initially running without the spite tree, but them might stacks!

I’ve been seeing a lot of posts lately post-patch about the “condi thief”. What is it? Does anyone have a link to builds/gameplay?

Salamander.2504:

Silverkey.2078:

…In particular, I don’t know how to properly use my signets. Between the might, the boon corruption and their own intrinsic effect, I am never quite sure when to use them. Could anyone explains me briefly the main strategy of the build?…

Use plague signet when you need to dump a lot of condis: it’s your main condi clear and lowest CD stun break. If you see 3+ burn stacks from an ele/guard/condi ranger with 1 or 2 other condi’s, feel free to pop it quick (preferably only if SA off CD), because those burns can do a lot of damage in a short period of time. Use locust signet in large battles to aoe corrupt boons; also can be used in a bind as a second heal to the same effect. The CD’s of these are low enough that you don’t need to “save” them; you’ll know to use them when you’ve been condi-bombed or the opposing team has an ele/guard dishing out boons like candy. This happens regularly, so don’t be afraid to keep them on CD.

I try to avoid using signet of vampirism frequently so that I can benefit from the heals over time, but if you need a quick burst heal, use it. It’s especially effective when your team is focusing down one player, as the active effect will improve your team’s DPS on that target. Unlike the passive effect, the active works through DS, so if your life force is full and you need some heals/dps, pop it before entering DS.

Corrupting stability turns it into fear: use this to your advantage when securing a rezz or a stomp (or to get an FT engi off point); locust can help you get this off quickly because you don’t even need a target, but plague signet is equally good because it’s instant-cast.

Don’t waste your signets just to stack might, just think of that as an added bonus; you’ll acquire plenty of might passively through a combination of siphoned power, plague sending, sigil of strength, reaper’s might and rune of strength.

bhagwad.4281:

…A bonus would be to know how to survive in a group fight when you’re constantly the focus of attacks because you’re the necro

These aren’t cele-signet specific, but what I can think of now: Pop SA and start out a fight in plague form to get the most out of the vitality boost if: 1) you’re outnumbered on point which ticks in your favor; or 2) incoming mesmer/thief [stealth] burst that happens frequently at mid right when the match starts. Don’t be afraid to pop shroud to eat a backstab and then instantly leave it to regen your LF(+). On the same token, take advantage of the low CD fear of DS 3 to pop DS—>fear—>leave DS if your health pool is above ~75%—-your dagger AA DPS is still high enough that leaving DS for the 10 s CD isn’t a gamebreaker(+), and using fear like this does help take some pressure off in the long run. Use dagger 2 life siphon immediately following signet of vampirism active to get a beefy heal; you can use DS 4 to secure the last ~3.5 seconds of the active. Use DS 5 to help kite, and locust signet for a second heal if needed. I personally use FitG for the stability and stunbreak, which helps relieve CC pressure under focus.

(+) (these strategies do work best if you have unholy sanctuary [so you don’t get caught with DS on CD] but there isn’t really a traitline you can sacrifice in the cele-signet build we’re discussing, so I mention this purely as food for thought. Either way, flashing shroud defensively when (1) your LF is too low to spend lots of time in it; or (2) your health pool is high, ensures aoe weakness uptime from weakening shroud, so try not to let your LF get lower than 10%)

I hope this helps.

Thanks for the awesome tips!

Mak.2657:

Mak.2657:

You know “stability” boon (cowered with other boons or just pulsing)?

Mesmer’s instant stealth skills:
1. Decoy (can be done when stunned)
2. The prestige (can not be done when stunned, need torch)

Thieves instant stealth skill:
1. Blinding powder (can be done when stunned),
2. Hidden thief trait (can be done when stunned, need trait ofc)

Both can cast stealth skills with cast time or combos from stealth.
Mesmer bursts works at melee or almost melee range. Mesmer can initiate burst from distance. Thief can too.

Do not playing with cs right now. Have no big problems vs cs shatter neither on mesmer, nor thief. Idk, mb hadn’t meet good cs shatters. I eat most part of stealthed combo burst, but usually manage to escape and burst back.
Though cs is banned now on angz server, didn’t notice big problems with it when it was allowed (mb just coincidence).

Played pug round as a thief right now. Enemy had 2 mesmers with cs. They couldn’t burst me even together. Keep them busy and contesting point most time of the round through the kiting and los.
I m not good thief, pretty mediocre probably. But knows some basics.

Stealing to gain stealth has costs. To start with, it’s just 2 seconds. Second, it teleports you right into range of your enemy. If you teleport to a clone, it’s even worse. 2 seconds stealth for the loss of an extremely powerful skill that didn’t even damage the other guy… If the purpose of stealth is to confuse your opponent and not let them know where you are, stealing to achieve that is counter productive.

The point I’m making has to do with trade offs and counterplay. When a mesmer decoys or torch stealths, there is no counterplay. No chance of disrupting the stealth. They don’t give up anything. There is no downside to stealthing other than the CD of course.

I mean if a thief is fighting a mesmer, using steal on a clone just to gain 2s of stealth is even worse, because think of the boons they’re giving up!

Mak.2657:

Again both mesmer and thief have a same number of “non counterable” stealth ability – 2.

Which are the two thief ones? And what’s the duration of stealth they can stack? And how frequently?

Actually, my point is an accumulation of many things. The non tracking of stealth, the ability to initiate a burst from range, and the ability to chain 6 stuns with a gap of 5 seconds.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Yeah, okay, I’ll make one more response.

bhagwad.4281:

And wait – did you just say that no class other than engi can pull a thief out of shadow refuge? This is the mesmer forum right? Did you forget focus 4? Did you forget GS 5? Did you forget necro fear marks? Did you forget ele CC? Did you forget Warrior stomp?

Wow – just wow.

Moreover, did you forget AoE in general? The key here is counterplay. Pulling a thief out of shadow refuge is one type of counterplay. AoE’ing the well defined area is another type of counterplay.

You’re clearly not the right person to cast aspersions on another’s PvP experience if you say that only engis can throw thieves out of shadow refuge. In any case, you shouldn’t get personal.

You missed the part where that already got brought up. Read the thread, bro.
I was referring to ending the stealth specifically, not getting knocked out of the ring (which has counterplay, as both I and the other poster noted).

As far as focus4, you’re running torch, you don’t get to use that.
GS5 was addressed by the poster who already addressed my oversight.

It’s not simple, it’s not straightforward, but you keep insisting that it is.
That’s the problem here, not that you’re not addressing points (though you do miss stuff because apparently you don’t take the time to read the thread before you post), but that when you do, you just leave out the stuff that complicates things, insisting that it’s clear cut.

It’s not that there’s no play around the idea of using Hide in Shadows for stealth vs healing, it’s that you completely ignored its existence in a post where you claimed to compare all the sources of stealth between mesmer and thief.

It’s not that you didn’t say something about thief stealth, or that there isn’t a point to be made about thief complexity, but you claimed thief instant stealth wasn’t even a thing.

Yes, there are more. No, I’m not going into them, because this kind of poor debating behavior is best dealt with by ending debate.

If you are interested in making a fair, full comparison between all the options thieves and mesmers have at their disposal, I’m interested in being convinced.
Otherwise, I’m not interested in debating with someone who is not interested in a rational consideration of the subject.

Enough has been said to make it clear to lurkers that you are not arguing in good faith, I’m content that you can’t do any damage as you are.

We are not discussing a duel between a thief and a mesmer using torch. We are discussing stealth counter capabilities in general. As a mesmer, I have pulled a thief out of Shadow innumerable times. But the main point is addressed – shadow refuge has counterplay.

Counterplay is all anyone is asking for.

You say I ignored “hide in shadows”. Yet when you brought it up, I addressed it. So what is your complaint about me not responding to your points? Moreoever, this entire thread has also been focused heavily on insta cast stealth skills, which hide in shadows is not.

Counterplay – hide in shadows has counterplay. As you admit. So what is the problem?

In an earlier post, I’d already mentioned that instant thief stealth is available with blinding powder. So what is your complaint exactly?

Show me one point that you have brought up that I have refused to address, and your post has merit. Otherwise, no.

The general point I’m making is pretty obvious. Thief stealth has counterplay. Mesmer stealth does not. All your examples and posts have done nothing to even hint at otherwise.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

bhagwad.4281:

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your Prestige as a stealth, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me unblinded/burned and healthy

Your “last post” unfortunately had no response to what I just said.

Read it again.
I’ll give you a hint: he quoted you twice, except one isn’t actually what you said, but points out that your point applies equally to both classes.

I’m gonna take his lead and exeunt, though. It’s clear that you have no interest in making a rational comparison to get to the real bottom of things, so there’s no point in arguing further.

He is most welcome to specify exactly why the comparisons are not fair. And when he and you both have mentioned something, I take the trouble to specifically address the point. He talked about hide in shadows. I addressed that with PU boons. He talked about stealth on steal. I addressed that as well. He talked about BS repeatedly and I addressed that too.

Exactly which points pray have you brought up that I haven’t addressed?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

What Sunflowers said. The complexity of thief stealth options doesn’t make them unusable.
Frankly, as long as a player has a certain minimum level of experience, complexity is irrelevant, only durations, cooldowns and cast times matter.
If a thief can instant-stealth when they need it, on a decent cooldown so it’s up when they need it, and it really is effectively instant, it doesn’t matter how complicated it is.

As for teleporting into melee range, I’m operating off the fact that past a given range, the difference between instant and short-cast isn’t important. So, decoy and prestige being instant matters most where? When you need to get out of dodge, aka in melee.
Guess what, stealth on steal in melee doesn’t change the fact that you’re already in melee.
Steal is a great engage, but it’s also my favorite way to start a stealth escape on my thief (when I can’t CnD).

You forgot Hide in Shadows.

You keep conveniently ignoring things in your comparisons.

You did a “direct” comparison of Mesmer abilities, but whoops, you forgot some stealth sources!

You claim that Shadow Refuge is the ultimate counterable stealth ability, but whoops, you forgot that you can’t pull a thief out of stealth if you’re not an engineer, they take 25% less damage in stealth, they’re gonna come out of that SR with 10s of stealth, and they move much, much faster in stealth than a mesmer is even capable of!

Your comparisons suck because you aren’t making fair comparisons, and that damages your credibility so much that no one believes you.

If you seriously think you’re right, stop slanting your analysis, and take absolutely everything into account for both classes.
The fact that you have not simply makes me think that on some level, you know you’re wrong and are afraid that using the full facts will show you up. You want us to believe your experience on both thief and mes means a kitten , you gotta show it, and you’ve done a kitten poor job so far.

Let’s take these points one by one.

Complexity does matter for two reasons:

1. Complex maneuvers take more time than simple ones
2. There’s always a chance of something going wrong

I mean BS+HS is undoubtedly more complex than simply pressing a button. If you had a target to start with, you have to de-target first to stack stealth. Then you have to have camera angles etc. Plus, it takes time. It’s definitely not instant.

So complexity matters – very much.

What about Hide in Shadows? You want to burn your 30s heal skill for 3 secs of stealth even when you don’t need the heal? Great! That’s a sacrifice you made. I don’t need counterplay when you’ve already shot yourself in the foot.

And wait – did you just say that no class other than engi can pull a thief out of shadow refuge? This is the mesmer forum right? Did you forget focus 4? Did you forget GS 5? Did you forget necro fear marks? Did you forget ele CC? Did you forget Warrior stomp?

Wow – just wow.

Moreover, did you forget AoE in general? The key here is counterplay. Pulling a thief out of shadow refuge is one type of counterplay. AoE’ing the well defined area is another type of counterplay.

You’re clearly not the right person to cast aspersions on another’s PvP experience if you say that only engis can throw thieves out of shadow refuge. In any case, you shouldn’t get personal.

Let’s keep it clean huh?

Sunflowers.1729:

Ok I’ll make an exception and post one last time. Do you even hear what you are saying?

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

bhagwad.4281:

If you want to use your Prestige as a stealth, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me unblinded/burned and healthy

Seriously, anyone else can just read his original post (I didn’t quote the entirety of it above) and you see the hypocrisy. It’s so big and obvious.

Basically what Alpha said above. Your comparisons are not fair in the slightest and nobody will take you seriously.

Your “last post” unfortunately had no response to what I just said.

Sunflowers.1729:

Now you’re just being disingenuous and ignoring the facts.

Does PU give condi removal (no, but torch trait removes one). Does it give cooldown reduction (no, but pledge does, for two skills only). A massive hard hitting attack? (no). Consistent might? (No, it gives crappy amounts of might). The SA line gives all of those benefits consistently, all the time.

And try to counterplay my instant 1200 range dazing 20s CD stealth. Gotcha. So it puts me into melee range. You speak of it as ‘counterplay’. Guess what, you can use it on any clone, or even without a target. And I want to use it as a teleport. Are all teleports bad now because they put you into melee range?

Furthermore BP is 4 seconds when traited into SA Get your facts right. With each post it just reveals that you have never played Thief.

I’m not going to continue arguing with you, this is pointless and a waste of my time.

There are many who would find the tasty PU boons more than enough compensation. Does thief stealth give you Aegis? Does thief stealth give you 33% instead of 25% damage reduction (via protection)? You can say that thieves get a different packet of benefits while in stealth compared to the mesmer, but it’s far from a given that it’s better.

If you want to use your steal as a teleport to a clone, good for you. And even better for me! You’ve just had to make a sacrifice to get your stealth. A sacrifice that will see me undazed and healthy

Come on…give me one example of thief stealth besides blinding powder that has no counterplay or trade off of some sort of the other.

And do you want me to do the same for mesmer? Do I need to?

Sunflowers.1729:

bhagwad.4281:

And are we even addressing the torch CD reduction the longer one is in stealth? You mention 25% less damage in stealth? Weigh that against the boons a PU mesmer gets when in stealth. Blinding powder = 3 seconds stealth. Decoy = 6 seconds with PU.

Can I get condi removal, might, cooldown reduction (initiative), health regeneration, movespeed, less damage taken, and a massive hard hitting attack in stealth? Oh yes make it spammable on my weapon skill too.

Your claims of “everyone knows that I’m right” are kind of showing that you don’t have anything to argue with now.

Here are the boons you can get from PU: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prismatic_Understanding

I think that covers everything you’ve mentioned?

Sunflowers.1729:

Contortions? That was just how to counter someone standing in BP. I didn’t even mention all the other instant stealths available to Thieves, or all the passive benefits from stealthing.

Let’s list them right here:
Blinding Powder (can be used when stunned, or to instantly combo with BP as it is a blast finisher)
Stealth on Steal (21s CD, traited, can be used when stunned)
Stealth from stealing from other Thieves
Shadow Refuge (it’s instant, technically).

And I, too, have played both classes. I can also claim to know that you are wrong, although that doesn’t prove anything

Let’s take those one by one:

1. BP – 3 seconds stealth vs decoy 6 seconds (with PU of course)

2. Stealth on steal – you just brought yourself into my range. Congratulations. I have counterplay

3. Stealth from other thieves – conditional. You cannot rely on it. Pretty rare actually

4. Shadow refuge – what? The biggest “tell” of them all. Counterplay = maximum.

Keep in mind that mesmer steal was fine before this. It’s PU that puts it over the top. And the CD reduction on pledge. And CS. So all your examples may have been valid before the PU buff. But no longer.

All of these together is what combines to make the mes worse than the thief.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

bhagwad.4281:

You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

That’s not entirely true.
The Prestige has a visible flame animation when it ends.
If the player doesn’t appear when that happens, you can be pretty sure they popped MI, or at least decoy (not if they’re smart, decoy’s cooldown is long enough that they should be keeping it for emergencies, or if they’re running away).
You can tell whether they popped The Prestige or Decoy because decoy pops a clone and The Prestige does aoe smoke/blind.
You can tell whether they popped Veil because veil.
You can tell whether they popped MI because it has a channel.
They can hide MI behind other stealth, they can sometimes prevent decoy from dropping a clone depending on the situation, but they can’t hide The Prestige.

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer can burst from distance.

You and others have repeated this ad nauseum, and to my knowledge none of you have replied to the counterpoint that inevitably comes up:
Mesmer distance burst sucks, relatively speaking. You lose at least half your shatter damage, the rest of the shatter has the biggest tell in the entire game (3 fake mesmers running straight for you), Mirror Blade only hits once, etc.
I don’t mean to say they can’t do ranged damage, but it doesn’t rise remotely close to the level you’re complaining about.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Thief can top it with shortbow or pistol, tbh.

bhagwad.4281:

unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Stealth on steal + infiltrator’s arrow/shadowstep = a thief who could be anywhere.
Pop Hide in Shadows immediately and you’ve got more stealth time, and then you can pop other stealth to extend the space.
You want to bring up the best of mesmer stealth, you’ve gotta compare it to the best of Thief stealth too. Using uneven comparisons is disingenuous at best, intentionally deceptive at worst.

bhagwad.4281:

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Confounding Suggestions has an ICD of 5s, the most stun you can get out of MoD is what, 1.5s?
How are you getting chain stuns? Or do you just mean how frequently you can stun? Because it’s not like the target champ has no tricks up their sleeve either, and sometimes all they need is breathing room. I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant by applying pressure.

That said, if there’s anything that I think should be toned down in some way, it’s Confounding Suggestions.

None of these “tells” compare to a huge red circle on the ground that you know the thief is most likely going to be jumping through for the next 2 seconds. I mean…decoy leaves a clone – what does that tell you? That he could have dodged in any direction afterwards.

Come on – mesmer stealth is far simpler and evadeable than a thief’s. Just let a neutral person see the comparisons.

The ranged damage is enough IMHO to be very threatening – especially when it can be pulled off this frequently.

“Stealth on steal + infiltrator’s arrow/shadowstep = a thief who could be anywhere.”

You’ve just had to press 2 buttons instead of 1. And I know exactly how slow inflitrator’s arrow is. You’ll be lucky to escape unscathed. Moreover, if you’ve switched to bow, you’re not going to be backstabbing me any time soon. You’ve made lots of tradeoffs, not to mention the fact that you’ll be lucky to escape as easily without paying a price.

Guys…most people in this discussion have played both classes. I have mained a mesmer for 3 years. I know what is easy and what isn’t. Most people here do. So let’s not over extend. The more examples you give of thief play, the more it’s obvious that it’s not just “press button – vanish poof!”.

And are we even addressing the torch CD reduction the longer one is in stealth? You mention 25% less damage in stealth? Weigh that against the boons a PU mesmer gets when in stealth. Blinding powder = 3 seconds stealth. Decoy = 6 seconds with PU.

What is this argument even about? Is anyone here suggesting that thief stealth counterplay is less than mesmer stealth counterplay?

Sunflowers.1729:

You can run back into the BP and HS away from the enemy standing inside, to continue stacking stealth. Shouldn’t be too hard if you do it with the camera facing down. And really doing that is putting a big “BACKSTAB ME” sign on your head.

Also, if you block my Backstab, I pay the heavy price of….waiting 1 second and Backstabbing you again. While gaining might, removing conditions, taking less damage, and regaining initiative.

Just try backstabbing me and getting 5 stacks of tormet plus heavy damage. Thieves who do that end up revealed in the down state. Bring it on – I’ll trade you a backstab for my counter . Remember I’m not glass.

You just need to read the number of contortions you have to go through to pull your stealth off. I mean…the more you write, the more you make it clear that stealthing is not as simple as just pressing a button.

You can’t seriously say that all this is easier than a mesmer insta cast stealth right?

I mean – I’ve played both classes. I know which is easier, so why is there even a discussion on this?

Sunflowers.1729:

I don’t know what kind of thieves you’ve been fighting who don’t have a million different instant ways to get behind you to backstab.

Edit: As a Thief player myself stealth has very little counterplay. You forgot that the BP+HS combo blinds you with a projectile making landing CC extra difficult. And where’s the counterplay to our spammable teleports? Or instant get-out-of-any-trouble Shadowstep? There isn’t either. So….yeah.

And the counter to “Oh look he has Aegis and I’m blinded never mind I will just 1111111111111111”

I just need to run into the BP field to disrupt stealth stacking as the thief will hit me with HS and get revealed. Not to mention that auto attacking is also effective since the blind only pulses once every two seconds. Give me 2 seconds AA as a necro and see how much damage I do . Not to mention I can just cast locust swarm, run up and spam my marks/wells on the BP field. Locust will consume the blind easily.

And what do you think will happen when a guardian unleashes WW on a BP field? That is either a dead thief, or a thief that can’t stack stealth.

So…much…counterplay.

Next, the BS is exactly one packet of damage. As a mesmer, I have skills that block one attack and if I manage to catch that single BS on the block, the thief pays a heavy price. A mesmer’s burst consists of multiple damage packets and a single block isn’t going to negate it. Not to mention – once again – that it can happen from range.

And we’re not even going to get into the multiple stuns from CS are we?

Iavra.8510:

Shatter is our class mechanic, so it should be kinda mandatory. You can (in theory, didn’t test) combine it with Phantasms by traiting Persistence of Memory and/or – when Expansion hits – Chronophantasma.

I would say that shatter is a class mechanic, not the class mechanic. I would say that Phantasms are a unique mesmer class mechanic as well. If I want, I should have a viable build that relies entirely on phantasm damage, just like many mesmers rely entirely on shatter.

In fact, I’d written a long post explaining why I don’t shatter: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Why-I-Refuse-to-Shatter/first

That build was possible before the patch. Now it’s not. Hooray for build diversity!

Phantom Master.9582:

Yes we’re the cheap ones now, the opponents we fight may not have direct counters but they do have options of their own.

Mesmer’s burst can be quick, but not as ridiculously quick as thieves, it also takes a decent while to set up for a shatter burst after recently attempting one.

This means our opponents can wait patiently while we’re in stealth (their fingers on their blinks, breakstuns or invincibility while their other cooldowns also finish), to quickly dodge once they see a quick sign of incoming burst (like a mirrorblade projectile or CS stun) and then immediately instill pressure upon us while we’re revealed. (Forcing us to pop our distortion of blurred frenzy, or lock us down to force our blink)

Being a burst build means we lack attrition, if we always sit in stealth and lose our exchanges out of stealth, that means we’re loosing.

The other option is to just… run, unlikes thieves we can’t move much while we’re in stealth, we don’t have the shortbow shadow stepping and our blink is precious on a 22sec cooldown if traited. If they run we have to chase them and we won’t be able to efficiently burst, once we do get revealed we end up at their mercy with all their cooldowns back.

There is no class that has enough stunbreaks to keep up with our six chained stuns with CS and background mantra recharge. Moreover, stun from stealth does not even cause reveal! And apart from that, where is the question of dodging when you’re stunned?

Stunbreaks, invulns etc are precious, few, and far between. They simply don’t keep up with the frequency of damage bursts and stuns available to mesmers post-patch.

And of course, our stealth has no counter. Stealth skills are insta cast and take no set up – unlike thieves where everyone knows ways to disrupt the famous BP+HS combo. And even if they can’t, they know where the thief is for a few seconds while they stack stealth.

Where is the setup for using “The Pledge”? Or “Decoy”? You can even chain Mass invis while your other stealth is about to run out and your opponent has no way of knowing.

Counterplay. The idea is to have counterplay. Thief stealth has counterplay. Mesmer stealth does not. Thief burst also has a lot more counterplay than mesmer burst – at least you know the thief has got to be close to you to Backstab. A mesmer can burst from distance. After stunning of course.

And this is why I stopped playing mesmer after June 23rd. Pre-patch, I DID NOT use the following:

1. Shatters
2. Stealth
3. Interrupts/lockdown

Guess which Mesmer mechanics got boosted in the patch?

1. Shatters (so many more effects)
2. Stealth (PU)
3. Lockdown (CS, mantra backround recharge etc)

Looks like Anet wants all mesmers to stealth, shatter, and lockdown. Phantasm damage builds can go $%^& themselves.

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

bhagwad.4281:

My point is even more fundamental. Why should I have to PvE get PvP rewards? PvP players can even get legendaries without ever stepping into a PvP arena.

because those are actually pve rewards

This. You’re getting Dungeon rewards without playing the most difficult part of the dungeon… you’re only required to beat the easiest part of it to get the reward track. Seems pretty fair to me.

I disagree that dungeon rewards are PvE rewards. Before April 2014, we could craft all dungeon skins in the Mystic Forge with PvP tokens. In fact, that’s exactly how I have most of my dungeon skins in the first place! After last year, Anet gave us other ways to get them in PvP.

Dungeons are definitely PvE content. Dungeon reward skins are not.

Here’s the celestial signet build: http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Celestial_Signet

I too would like some tips on how to play this. Never sure when to use the signets, and the best situations for them. Any good gameplay on youtube?

A bonus would be to know how to survive in a group fight when you’re constantly the focus of attacks because you’re the necro

So after June 23rd, I’ve been playing a necro instead of a mesmer because I would prefer not to use PU or Confounding Suggestions (CS).

Predictably, I’m having trouble beating mesmers now with their huge, frequent bursts coupled with long stealth times. I play a celestial well necro (as of now). I’d appreciate tips for how you guys currently deal with mesmers one on one in PvP. I’ve managed to down a few mesmers so far, and come close to winning against a few others, but most of the time the stealth and bursts are too much for me.

Here’s what I’m trying right now with some success. I would appreciate more ideas/tips from you guys…

1. Use locust swarm and dagger AA
The cripple and my swiftness really helps keep mesmers close to me. I use Weakening Shroud, so weakness robs them of frequent dodges and protects me from their crits as well

2. DS #4 to consume their clones and lower burst (the problem is that it’s super easy to interrupt making it rather dangerous when the mesmer is using Power Block)

3. DS #5 is good too. Pretty much impossible to deliberately interrupt

4. Spam marks when mes is stealthed. But it’s risky because I have to be ready to insta dodge.

5. Dark Path #3 dagger to pin them down for some AA

6. The spite tree allows me to stack might when he gets below %50 and cast spinal shivers as well.

But all this only works as long as he’s visible. As soon as the mesmer vanishes and I lose track of where he is in stealth, I’m at risk. If he moves away and initiates a burst from stealth, I have to pray I can dodge in time or it’s game over.

Moreover, I have just one stun break – well of power. A typical mesmer these days will have six instant stuns from range that don’t even break stealth if it’s not an interrupt. So I can’t even dodge away to avoid a burst. Since I have nothing to protect me – no invulns, no blocks, no evades, no damage negation…nothing, I had better pray that I have some LF or it’s over. The heal is also pretty telegraphed, so I try and reserve my well of power (1.5 seconds stab) after exiting DS to reliably use my heal skill.

I’ve noticed that the key is to pounce on the mesmer as soon as they show themselves. You can’t allow them to do their own thing or you’ll always be on the defensive. I need to stick to them closer than kittene on a wet blanket, or I’m never going to come out on top.

But even when I’m on them, the stuns act as a failsafe, allowing time to move away and initiate a burst or go into stealth.

So what suggestions do you necros have to fight mesmers? What do you use to lock them down and avoid their burst? What traits do you find useful? What skills are particularly effective against today’s mesmers with their stealths, burst, and stuns?

MailMail.6534:

DHawk.2687:

MailMail.6534:

I don’t get the point of this thread. I still don’t feel sorry for thieves and never will.

I don’t use PU, because I dislike the playstyle but that doesn’t change the fact that thief has been an OP class and one that HARD-countered power Mesmers for the entirety of this game’s invention until June 23rd. This is to be celebrated.

That being said, do not fear my fellow Mesmers. We’ll be nerfed back into the ground where other classes gain more with 50% less effort put into their builds.

^thief hasn’t been OP for a long time, and in it’s current state the thief is just pathetic, why do you think so many ppl are leaving the thief to play mesmer or smth else, it’s not just about thief vs mesmer, thief in general was kittened with the patch

Thief hasn’t been OP since June 23rd. In it’s current state, I think at best it’s mid-tier. Having 2 thieves on a single team = auto loss based on my experiences. I agree that thieves got nerfed a lot in this recent patch. They’re totally replaceable with PU zerk Mesmer… However, condi thief is very underrated right now and might be the strongest spec currently.

As an aside, what is this condi thief build everyone’s referring to? Got a link to a build or video?

My point is even more fundamental. Why should I have to PvE get PvP rewards? PvP players can even get legendaries without ever stepping into a PvP arena.

You need to complete the story mode again. Personally I find this whole system absurd – why should we be forced to do PvE content to access PvP rewards?

denis.9487:

Choppy.4183:

Normally I wouldn’t ask for someone to defend why a change shouldn’t be made, but some of you are effectively saying where the stealth buff is a problem doesn’t matter, and anywhere that does matter the stealth bonus is a non-factor.

Neither of those is an argument to keep the buff. The closest you get to it is the first part, and that amounts to “it’s not worth looking at” not “the buff should stay as is”.

So you’re either digging in over something you think doesn’t matter or you think the buff does matter and you haven’t been straight about why it should be left alone.

If there’s no value to the buff, then you should have no objections to reducing it in the face of people pointing out where it is a problem.

The last sentence speaks volumes. Because some people have an issue it needs to be nerfed? L2p l2 count higher than 5. Do not roam alone and bring a friend because after all this is guild wars not solo roam wars.

This is ridiculous. Just because this is a team game doesn’t mean you need to have friends to play with. You can solo q just fine with 4 strangers as a team. That doesn’t make them your friends.

Rome.7124:

strange community indeed, when good buffs are given, you guys want nerfs? Seriously, is there a medical condition that describe this strange behavior?

A functioning sense of fairplay isn’t pathological.

Thief stealth =/= mesmer stealth.

For one, a thief can’t stack stealth in a fight without painting a massive target over his head saying “I’m stealthing! Do something! You know I’m here”. As a mesmer, here are things I can do to counter thief stealth stacking:

1. GS 5 on BP or Refuge
2. Focus 4 on BP or Refuge
3. Stand in the circle and disrupt the stealth stack chain
4. Cast Chaos storm on it

Other classes can do even more. I mean…you know the thief is there! That red circle is a huge marker.

Next. A thief’s main burst from stealth comes from close to you – right behind you in fact. Now I’ve suffered with this just like any mesmer…I’ve always thought stealth was cheesy, but there is at least something you can do. If the thief doesn’t stack stealth, I know he has around 3 seconds to position himself behind me. I might not always succeed in preventing a BS…but I have a shot.

A mesmer’s stealth skills on the other hand are instant apart from Mass Invis (which they can start casting before their other stealths run out). Instant casts means no counterplay to prevent it – unlike a thief. Torch stealth is immediate. Decoy is immediate.

Next – a mesmer doesn’t have to be in melee range to initiate a decent burst. Completely unlike a thief for whom, burst = behind you.

So please stop pointing to thieves and saying “Oh, thieves can stack stealth”. Sure they can…at great personal risk. Mesmers can stack stealth without huge signs over their heads saying “Here I am!!”

I can’t believe I’m defending thieves here. I mean, I’ve QQ’d about thieves probably more than anyone else – right from the days when MUG could crit. Just check out this 2 year old post of mine about ridiculous thief damage on my mesmer: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Ridiculous-Steal-Backstab-17k-in-sPvP/first

That was long ago…when tournaments still required tickets to play in. Anyone remember those days?

Never ever thought a day would come when I’m defending them!

I’ve seen some really funny necro videos lately.

You know what? We need to have a sticky only for funny necro videos. Here’s a funny suicide one I watched recently

It’s taken me some months to get all the Ambrite weapons via PvP, and it’s been great. Awesome to have something to work towards, while knowing that other avenues to get it are approximately as efficient.

But after this, what’s next for PvP’ers? Sure, there are dungeon tracks and getting all the skins, but there are three problems:

1. Running dungeons is way, way more efficient to get tokens than completing tracks
2. The dungeon tracks give a lot of exotic weapons when we usually need armor pieces
3. We need to do the story mode to permanently unlock the tracks

Really not sure why the last one even exists – bad design. I mean, we don’t ask PvE’ers to win 20 PvP games before allowing them to do some PvE content right? I mean…you can even get a legendary weapon without touching PvP! So why the absurd and illogical gating here? PvE bores me and I don’t want to have to do it.

The other two points need to be addressed also. Dungeon token accumulation via PvP is absurdly inefficient. A full run of 40 steps give us…240 tokens? There was a time when I used to do CoE and Ascalon runs – I could get 240 tokens in a couple of days!

So can Anet please create some new PvP reward tracks that feel you know…rewarding? Something where I don’t feel like I’m wasting my time reaching for rewards that can be more efficiently gathered via PvE content?

So two suggestions:

1. The Amrbite weapons were awesome. Though the geodes are not enough, you can just PvP more to get the geodes. So some new weapon track like that would be much appreciated.

2. Give us tokens on dungeon tracks instead of weapon choices. That way I won’t feel like I have to mystic forge all the extra weapons I get and will actually be able to use the tokens to expand my dungeon collection…

Saiyan.1704:

bhagwad.4281:

Yeah, I dislike the burst meta as well. Counterplay is always important. And even glass cannons need to have counterplay. So simply saying “Oh, you’re glass cannon so you deserve to be one shotted” isn’t enough.

Of course, I gave up playing glass a long time ago – but fair is fair. Unreactable bursts shouldn’t exist.

Then go Marauders instead if you can’t react fast enough in Zerk gear.
Still can’t?
Go Celestial/Barbarians/Knights
Still can’t?
You should change builds, professions, or just get out of competitive pvp.

I think you missed the part where I said I don’t play glass.

Yeah, I dislike the burst meta as well. Counterplay is always important. And even glass cannons need to have counterplay. So simply saying “Oh, you’re glass cannon so you deserve to be one shotted” isn’t enough.

Of course, I gave up playing glass a long time ago – but fair is fair. Unreactable bursts shouldn’t exist.

Which class are you playing? As a well necro, minion mancers are very easy. Throw some marks, throw a couple of wells, switch to Death Shroud, hit “4”, and minions are dead. Necromancer is then alone and can be easily killed.

On the other hand, if your build focuses on single target damage, you’re dead. The MM has too much sustain if you can’t take out the minions.

This is weird for me. For all of GW2 history, I have disliked thieves. As a mesmer player, they used to make my life miserable. The stealths really used to annoy me and I slowly learned ways and means to at least put up a fight before dying. Auto attacks, throwing up blocks when I expect a BS, running into their black powder to disrput stealth stacking, CC’ing the black powder area, running Mantra of Resolve to instantly clear blinds etc.

But despite all that, I hated thieves. I would single them out on my mesmer and try and take them down. And in all the youtube videos of mesmers fighting thieves, I was rooting for my class to take the thief down. To teach that stealthing little snit a lesson.

All that changed on June 23rd.

I realized this as I was watching a WvW video of a thief and mesmer dueling and to my shock, I found myself rooting for the thief! This has never happened before. And the reason is of course simple.

Now mesmers are the stealthing little snits abusing stealth and bursting…more than the thief ever did. When I saw the thief stealth, I could see the mesmer make some defensive moves – port around, throw up a block to anticipate the time of reveal, CC shadow refuge, CC black powder, run into the black powder field to prevent stealth stacking etc.

But when the mesmer stealthed, there was nothing the thief could do. Apart from Mass invis which has a CD, the other mesmer stealth skills were insta cast. And the mes used Mass invis just as the other stealth was ending – essentially free. I felt bad for the thief. And let me tell you, this has never happened before.

What really gets me is the identity crisis the PU builds have created for me. I used to be the class that could hold the moral high ground with stealth. Clones, porting, deception – was what I would use to fight. Honest deception in the sense that the opponent would be able to combat me fairly.

But this…this repeated camping in stealth for long periods of time and bursting down. That was behavior I despised in thieves. And now we do it!. It’s worse actually because it can be done from range with no counterplay to repeated stealth unlike the thief.

I remember a time before the patch where mesmer PU builds were considered essentially trolling. “Real mesmers” shunned the stealth camping and ran shatter. I never ran shatter myself, because that’s not my playstyle, but hey – shatter was legit. Now that PU has been buffed unimaginably, mesmers have suddenly flocked to this despised trait that was considered “trolly” even before!

And of course…CS. What was Anet thinking with that! Made even worse by MoD recharging in the background.

I never thought I would be saying this. But mesmers are the bad guys now. My class that was my very first character in GW2, the one I have played 80% of my games on, the class that I love to bits really…is the one on the wrong side of the debate here.

It’s an identity crisis. I can’t come to terms with the fact that I’m the cheap one!.

Kudos to those mesmers who don’t run PU and who don’t use the broken CS traits. You do our class proud. I know, I know…I’m in the minority here. It’s just that for all of GW2’s history, the mesmer was my identity.

And now my identity is relegated to “that cheap class”. And boy, does it sting!

Kusa.6438:

Lol there is counter play. I’ve been using it for years on Mes against theifs. Its called AOEs, Knockbacks, and pulls. Play a thief or a mesmer for a while and you’ll learn how people typically path while stealthing. Then its pretty easy to attack someone in stealth.

We use AoE, knockbacks and pulls on regular enemies as well. Those are not stealth specific counterplays. Not to mention that these skills have long CDs. AoEs also work on thieves because they have to be in proximity to you, so you have a decent bead on their location. If a stealthed thief is at a distance, the threat is much lower.

With the ability of a mesmer to burst from even a short range however, AoEs are not enough. And of course, the ability to stealth is far greater than the CDs of any AoEs, knockbacks and pulls at your disposal. Could you let me know which knockbacks can be spammed with the same frequency a mesmer can stealth? I’d like to see that skill!

And I’ve been playing on mes since beta. Thief stealth is far easier to counter than mesmer stealth.

Anet needs to make it so that stealth has a trade off with damage. If you have lots of stealth, you need to sacrifice damage. If you have low damage, you can stealth.

The complaint about stealth is (and always has been) about the lack of counterplay. It’s not a boon – you can’t remove it. It’s not even a buff like berserker’s or endure pain because you don’t know when it’s going to end and you can’t see the remaining time. In any case, the stealthed person can even choose to end it prematurely.

Now if Anet gave all professions something like the engi’s revealed skill, that would cut down the complaints on stealth significantly. There needs to be something you can do to counter stealth other than simply trying to anticipate a burst, or dodge randomly, or use your CDs.

If Anet cannot provide counterplay to stealth, then make it so that we have to sacrifice damage.

After a long time, I learned about a thief’s weakness in stealth…they have to be close in to land their burst. So autoattacking around made sense. And you knew both the duration as well as the approximate location of the thief. This made it possible for me as a mesmer use my block skills strategically. Unless the thief used shadow refuge, which as everyone knows has its own counterplay.

But mesmer stealth comes with no drawbacks. No counterplay. The mesmer can burst from ahead, or from behind. From far, or from near. Not to mention even the Counfounding Suggestions doesn’t reveal the mesmer without the Power Block trait (and that too on interrupt)!

Counterplay. That’s the key – everything needs to have counterplay.

This is also the reason for the complaints about the constant instant chained stuns. Stunbreakers typically have long CDs and a mesmer can chain together six instant stuns (even from stealth and without reveal!).

Counterplay. That’s all people are asking for.

witcher.3197:

bhagwad.4281:

Does anyone know why Anet doesn’t make MMRs visible?

They “don’t want to encourage elitism/calling out others.”

How about making them only visible to the owners…?