Guild Wars 2

TsurugiOni.7910:

First of all that screenshot proves nothing. The post-death recap sorts in descending order of dmg. It shows nothing about skill order. Ur 2nd screen even shows a CnD so it’s impossible to do it “right after” even if u que CnD before you steal. The fact that you think that screencap is somehow “proof” just goes to show how little you really know.

You got hit for a 14k backstab. You can’t even do basic damage calculations to see that there was some extremely cheesey build that killed you.

Yes I believe it’s possible to do a steal + backstab combo when ur pre-cloaked (super hard for most). More likely what happened is that he was already cloaked, backstabbed him, then stole right after. It looks the exact same in summary.

Everyone has an opinion, doesn’t mean it’s good. If every developer balanced against nubs snipers would be banned from every FPS cuz “OP dmg + range”.

Surely you’ll agree that the exact mechanics of how this happened in 0.5 seconds is irrelevant. The point is to highlight that there’s something wrong. It’s up to the devs to decide what it is an how to fix it.

I’m highlighting the symptom – instant down with no chance of counterplay. How the devs want to diagnose and treat the problem is upto them.

WhiteRose.6934:

Normally I full heartily believe that thieves deserve to be toned down. I made one this weekend, threw together a full glass set, and proceeded to smash buttons in sPvP and do better than I do on my characters that I have hours upon hours of practice on. That’s a little too forgiving if you ask me, and dare I say much less complicated than thief players try and make it seem.

But in this case I will point out (what most people here have already stated) that the mesmer is also glass. No offense, but when the match-up becomes glass vs. glass, neither side has the right to complain. Fastest burst wins, and that was the thief in this case. If you build your glass set thinking you’re going to be awesome just bursting everyone down clicking a few buttons, don’t be upset when someone comes along and does the same thing to you.

Being a glass cannon doesn’t justify being instantly killed with no chance for counter attack.

I agree with you that fast burst wins. But “fast” does not equate to “instant”. And when there’s no counterplay it’s even more unjustifiable.

Dual.8953:

bhagwad.4281:

Dual.8953:

bhagwad.4281:

I think if a bunker engineer were to sacrifice all of their damage to increase survivability they should be able to hold out indefinitely against a single glass cannon. A thief sacrificing all their damage should be able to stealth, annoy, and escape one player.

But never two or more. I don’t believe a bunker guardian or engineer or ele should ever be able to hold off two players at the same time.

Why don’t you head on to the Ele board and tell them they shouldn’t be able to 3v1 and win.
If you want to make it so one can never beat two, good luck with that, you’d first need to get rid of all the AoE in the game. All damage would have to be single target. You’d also need to dumb the game down to the point that skill in combat wouldn’t matter. Two fresh players could take a single veteran because there’s more of them.

1vXing is the result of skill difference, not class balance.

When I say 1 should never beat 2, I’m talking about comparably skilled players naturally. Then it becomes an issue solely of class balance.

That’s relative too. Say the 2 skilled players focus on condition damage and they come against an equally skilled player who’s specced with strong condition removal and crits. Who should win?
In any case, why are you saying classes shouldn’t be able to 1v2 in the board of the class that’s iconic for 1v1 mastery?

In your example, the single player should lose even though they have strong condition removal simply because he/she would be unable to cope with the number of conditions applied by two. Again – two should always beat out one.

I’m sorry, I didn’t understand your last comment…

Larynx.2453:

bhagwad.4281:

Larynx.2453:

Use the signet, start casting Cloak and Dagger, Steal, CnD stealths you, instantly backstab, and use a heartseeker or two. You’ll need 25/30 in the top two trait lines. Put the remainder in whatever you want. I like getting Feline Grace personally. Just build pure crit damage, precision and power, and get all the damage modification traits possible.

As a note, you do not want to use the steal stealths you trait.

Thanks. Why not use the “steal stealths” trait? If not, how do I remain in stealth immediately after a steal to execute a backstab like in this screenshot ?

Because the combo does less damage. Steal is an instant teleport, which means you can use it without interrupting the current action (even stomping for example). CnD has 1/2 second cast time. If you use Steal before CnD goes off, the damage from Steal won’t unstealth you.

The actual order of events is CnD -> Steal -> Backstab, but the damage goes Steal -> CnD -> Backstab

If you’ve ever played a frost mage in WoW, it’s like Water elemental shatters. Start casting the frostbolt, wait till it’s going toward the target, and then use Freeze.

Got it. What runes/sigils do you recommend? I see in the screenshot that there was a lightning strike, so sigil of air perhaps?

Larynx.2453:

Use the signet, start casting Cloak and Dagger, Steal, CnD stealths you, instantly backstab, and use a heartseeker or two. You’ll need 25/30 in the top two trait lines. Put the remainder in whatever you want. I like getting Feline Grace personally. Just build pure crit damage, precision and power, and get all the damage modification traits possible.

As a note, you do not want to use the steal stealths you trait.

Thanks. Why not use the “steal stealths” trait? If not, how do I remain in stealth immediately after a steal to execute a backstab like in this screenshot ?

Esplen.3940:

I use Beryl Orbs on my Zerk-set.

I use centaurs all the time in sPvP. Need the speed to cap points. Bonus is you can’t be interrupted while healing. Still I’d use ether fest if I had a choice, but I really need the speed.

Ok – to start off, this is not a flame attempt. After seeing this , I want to do it too.

I know nothing about playing a thief, so I want to start one. Can anyone tell me what weapon sets to use, runes/sigils as well as traits so that I can two shot people in sPvP with the following damage and test it out for myself?

1. Steal: 7k followed by
2. Backstab: 10k

or

1. Cloak and Dagger: 5.8k followed by
2. Steal: 7.5k followed by
3. Backstab: 14k

Would much appreciate some insights on how to get kills like that.

Razor.6392:

I speak so skeptically because in over 800 hotjoin matches I have never been instagibbed as badly as you did… and I doubt that whatever spec that thief is using, is that rare that can pull such damage while being relatively unknown to most people.

I’m a lvl 29 mesmer. It happened to me twice in one day (as the screenshot shows). As I mentioned originally, I already have plenty of experience fighting thieves. So advice to use stunbreakers etc are preaching to the choir. I already know.

This is about not having enough reaction time to hit a stunbreaker button. And I don’t even know if I was stunned. It was that fast. All I knew was that I was on the ground suddenly from full health.

TsurugiOni.7910:

I do almost exclusive tPvP, tons of paids. Backstab thieves really aren’t all that. R40 (Not that that means I’m a god).

-If you didn’t see a thief coming did he pre-stealth? If so that nerfs his combo dmg. If not, that’s probably you’re fault since on any node there’s usually only 2 spots a person can come from. I mean hell dude you died by the cannon (hotjoin) with only 2 staircases.

-As a mesmer traited 50% health shatter recharge you have 2x distortion and 2x point blank daze. Staff chaos storm on self has a high chance of aegis/protection as a instant counter to his burst dmg. 17k x .33 = 5610 dmg reduction just by using chaos storm on self (considering you don’t get aegis). You can decoy as soon as he approaches / stealths and get superior positioning.

-For all you know the thief could have been buffed with stacks of might from teammates combined with all crits.

Listen, let’s say a theoretical base 2000 dmg on backstab. Base crit dmg = 150% + 62% crit dmg (30 traits, 20 amulet, 12 runes) = 212% dmg. 4240 dmg. You see even if you add in dmg from passive traits the dmg difference is coming from somewhere else.

-If something is so broken look at the meta. Since thief is never overly utilized (or at all) by top tier teams it probably means it’s not broken.

You’re not even using all of the tools available to you given your build to deal with the situation. You got caught off guard, it happens.

And especially since you’re in a hotjoin with 0 communication, there’s absolutely no reason to change balance based off of this type of situation. I certainly wouldn’t want the game to be balanced around fringe situations in a wholly uncompetitive setting.

There are definitely ways to pull off a backstab immediately after a steal. The fact that I posted a screenshot of the two happening together is proof enough. Unless you think I’m lying and that it didn’t happen in half a second.

If it’s the latter there’s nothing I can say that will convince you. It happened. Somehow. And that’s that.

Razor.6392:

bhagwad.4281:

Razor.6392:

Were you afk? As a 100% glass cannon elementalist, I have never EVER been hit that much in spvp.

I wasn’t afk. I was running to cap a point. But how will being afk increase damage?

Being afk would explain not reacting at all or seeing it coming.

Try to use your “lock-in nearest target” keybind more often.

I usually blow a stun breaker whenever they use basilisk on me (I assume he did with Steal)

It’s not as if I don’t know how to fight thieves. I kill a lot of them using exactly the same tactics you mentioned.

This is about having no reaction time. By the time you’re halfway to pressing the button you’re dead.

Dual.8953:

I think if a bunker engineer were to sacrifice all of their damage to increase survivability they should be able to hold out indefinitely against a single glass cannon. A thief sacrificing all their damage should be able to stealth, annoy, and escape one player.

But never two or more. I don’t believe a bunker guardian or engineer or ele should ever be able to hold off two players at the same time.

Why don’t you head on to the Ele board and tell them they shouldn’t be able to 3v1 and win.
If you want to make it so one can never beat two, good luck with that, you’d first need to get rid of all the AoE in the game. All damage would have to be single target. You’d also need to dumb the game down to the point that skill in combat wouldn’t matter. Two fresh players could take a single veteran because there’s more of them.

1vXing is the result of skill difference, not class balance.[/quote]

When I say 1 should never beat 2, I’m talking about comparably skilled players naturally. Then it becomes an issue solely of class balance.

Razor.6392:

Were you afk? As a 100% glass cannon elementalist, I have never EVER been hit that much in spvp.

I wasn’t afk. I was running to cap a point. But how will being afk increase damage?

Dual.8953:

bhagwad.4281:

Dee Jay.2460:

I’m not even going to attempt to justify such damage.

I’ve been saying that Mug needs a nerf and this is just further proof.

Vgman.4019:

Engis you can see coming, engis you can prepare for, engis you can preempt. Already stealth thieves? Your dead before theirs a chance to react.

To be fair, and already stealthed Thief can’t hit you like that. Mug would apply Revealed to him which would ruin his consecutive Cloak and Dagger + Backstab.

An already stealthed Thief can only hit you with Backstab.

A big problem with the “instant-gib” combo is that it is instant and almost completely untelegraphed. Steal has no animation and the Cloak and Dagger is a very subtle melee attack too, let alone that it is pre-cast most of the time.

If I’m not mistaken, the trait known as hidden thief overrides the reveal on steal.

You’d be wrong there.
And it’s a Master trait in the Shadow Arts tree. Thieves looking to do the BS combo won’t touch it.

You can see from the damage report that backstab was used immediately after stealth. Immediately without any time to cast another skill. So you explain that how exactly?

From the Wiki page of the “Mug” trait : http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug

“Using this trait will cause Stealing to break stealth, as it counts as an attack. (does not break stealth granted by Hidden Thief)”

Yuujin.1067:

bhagwad.4281:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well by that logic bunker eles, guardians, and even some engi builds definately need rebalancing.

If that’s what it takes, then yes. Two players should always beat one player with ease in every possible way. A glass cannon should never be able to dish out enough damage to kill two people. A bunker should never have enough health to outlast two people.

A glass cannon should dish out more than a balanced player – enough to kill them. A bunker should be able to hold out against one player.

But never against two. No matter what profession, race, weapon set or traits, two (or more than two) people should never be troubled by one player in any way.

That’s quite the design philosophy but I completely disagree with you.

If a bunker Engineer sacrafices his ability to deal damage to increase his survivability, he should be able to hold out against multiple opponents for an extended period of time.

If a thief sacrifices her ability to deal damage or have useful utility to extend the duration of her stealth to occupy the attention of a handful of players and distract them away from an objective she should be able to do that.

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting a vanish thief or bunker engineer should be able to 2v1 someone in a fight and win.

This is the thief, not the warrior forum.

(I kid, I kid.)

What amazes me about this thread is it was supposed to be a discussion about making thieves more enjoyable to play. Instead it has turned into a choir of people calling for nerfs on an already boring class that lacks variety.

Take away our damage and stealth and thieves are left with literally nothing.

Nothing.

I think if a bunker engineer were to sacrifice all of their damage to increase survivability they should be able to hold out indefinitely against a single glass cannon. A thief sacrificing all their damage should be able to stealth, annoy, and escape one player.

But never two or more. I don’t believe a bunker guardian or engineer or ele should ever be able to hold off two players at the same time.

Maugetarr.6823:

bhagwad.4281:

Maugetarr.6823:

Well by that logic bunker eles, guardians, and even some engi builds definately need rebalancing.

If that’s what it takes, then yes. Two players should always beat one player with ease in every possible way. A glass cannon should never be able to dish out enough damage to kill two people. A bunker should never have enough health to outlast two people.

A glass cannon should dish out more than a balanced player – enough to kill them. A bunker should be able to hold out against one player.

But never against two. No matter what profession, race, weapon set or traits, two (or more than two) people should never be troubled by one player in any way.

The game would simply turn into a numbers game then. Whoever brings more wins. No picking weapons and traits that synergize well so you can take on more than one player, especially if you are skilled in your profession. If the game were balanced so that 1 person could never give 2 trouble, people would just go glass in order to take down people faster. What’s the point in more defense when it would just extend the fight and leave it to chance whose teammates could get there faster to decide the victor.

I think it should be a numbers game if we’re talking about equal skill level. The counter to a glass cannon would be a bunker one on one. If help from any side arrives, it should tilt the balance heavily in the favor of one side.

As it is, I never fight 2v1. Even if I’m winning a fight and I see another approaching from the corner of my eye, I bail. I’m not arrogant enough to think I can take on two people.

Theplayboy.6417:

What I fail to see is how you even let this happen. The screenshot clearly shows that you got hit with Steal and then Backstab. Where is the Cloak and Dagger? It’s not there. This means the thief hit you with Steal then had had to use a stealth skill then had to get into position behind you in order to hit you with his backstab for that high of an amount. With all the tools you have to avoid this from happening it looks to me like you were just easy prey and need more practice.

I don’t think you’ve played a thief. If you had, you’d know that “hidden thief” allows you to retain stealth on steal.

Dee Jay.2460:

I’m not even going to attempt to justify such damage.

I’ve been saying that Mug needs a nerf and this is just further proof.

Vgman.4019:

Engis you can see coming, engis you can prepare for, engis you can preempt. Already stealth thieves? Your dead before theirs a chance to react.

To be fair, and already stealthed Thief can’t hit you like that. Mug would apply Revealed to him which would ruin his consecutive Cloak and Dagger + Backstab.

An already stealthed Thief can only hit you with Backstab.

A big problem with the “instant-gib” combo is that it is instant and almost completely untelegraphed. Steal has no animation and the Cloak and Dagger is a very subtle melee attack too, let alone that it is pre-cast most of the time.

If I’m not mistaken, the trait known as hidden thief overrides the reveal on steal.

Jumper.9482:

Engies can’t stealth or have scorpion wire?
This is news to me.

I have yet to be hit by an engineer who I didn’t know was there in the first place.

Maugetarr.6823:

Well by that logic bunker eles, guardians, and even some engi builds definately need rebalancing.

If that’s what it takes, then yes. Two players should always beat one player with ease in every possible way. A glass cannon should never be able to dish out enough damage to kill two people. A bunker should never have enough health to outlast two people.

A glass cannon should dish out more than a balanced player – enough to kill them. A bunker should be able to hold out against one player.

But never against two. No matter what profession, race, weapon set or traits, two (or more than two) people should never be troubled by one player in any way.

Yuujin.1067:

oellph.9450:

I have a level 80 Thief, Mesmer and Guardian. I’ve seen things from both sides of the fight and I’ve seen more than enough examples of entire groups being unable to take down a thief and for that thief to either escape or come back to harass the group. AOE isn’t a viable counter. It’s positively infuriating to fight against a thief who stealths every 4-5 seconds. It takes a few seconds just to get sight of him again, target him and try to land a couple skills, by which time he vanishes again. Some say ignore the thief. But the truth is you can’t.

I would like to see thief stealth skills brought in line with those of the Mesmer. Short duration, longer cool down. Effective but not overpowered. But in doing so other aspects of the class will need a careful boost because, as others have said, the Mesmer also has clones.

No, the truth is you can just ignore him. If he is stealthing as much as you claim he is, he’s gone into the SA tree and most if not all of his utility is for stealthing purposes. I’m going to wager he didn’t kill a single person during this entire skirmish and just frustrated you enough to make you feel like you deserved to be able to kill him.

He can’t deal damage by stealthing like you can by blowing up clones. He also doesn’t have a decoy that he can pop while he stealths that can completely misdirect most enemies or get blown up in their face to cause a status effect.

I’m amazed at how kitten people are about being distracted by a thief. There is a reason your Commander yells in all caps “IGNORE THE THIEF” when people start chasing stealth thieves. It is because they can’t do anything but stealth. One trick pony that cost them all their utility and a great deal of damage.

It’s a basic tenet of balance – one player should never be able to trouble two players (in any way). Never mind more than two.

Volrath.1473:

I play a thief as main, i cant tell you how to play your class cuz my Mesmer is lvl 14ish
but i can tell you how i behave wile in HJ’s

As i very erll know the power of a backsteb build, I’m NEVER static, if im caping a point I stay in the circle but moving around and turning, they need to be behind you to deliver the burst and if they miss it the following bursts are alot less deadly.

I Have played many many builds and different weapon combos, and the BS build is the one i disliked the most due to its unexistent (and intened) survivability. i play a “tanky” control build atm with D/D + SB that relies on stealthing as often as i can and delivering small bursts (3-4k) in between stealths wile chain blinding my opponent.

versus a BS thief i do the following (again as a thief, you guys need to use what you have):

1- He came out of no were, didn’t see him arrive and i get petrified (Basilisk Venom), i got 3 tools that i can use to avoid the bust.

a) Steal + dodge – it brakes any CC and dodge is your friend
b) blinding powder will blind the thief and make him miss the BS and stealthed me at the same time.
c) Shadowstep utility will also brake the CC and teleport me to a safe distance.

If i don’t have any of the above available, he kills me whitch is fair or he lives me with a very low HP pool allowing me to stealth and run away to regain health.

I do not believe this build needs nerfing since by doing so the OTHER builds that depend on BS as main dmg dealer (like my own) will become powerless because as i mention before my BS hits for 3-4k crit it BS gets tuned down this build will fall as many others.

the 10 point trait Mug is in deed very strong for a mere 10 points, it should get its dmg adjusted (not hammered to the ground)…

I hope this helps, now you need to look at the stun brakes available to your profession and do not be a siting duck asking to be insta killed…. stay mobile and try not to have your back facing the same direction for long…

I’m able to avoid most backstabs when the thief stealths. This however happened to me as I was running to a cap point and thought I was alone.

This is not a regular complaint about backstab and repeat stealth. This is about problems when starting out with stealth in the first place and you don’t even know the thief is there.

I already carry two stunbreakers. They were useless cause I had no time to react. And unlike a thief, I can’t stealth and run away either.

Aurum.8793:

Let me tell you why that’s bullkitten.

1.) You are wearing a berserker amulet, and you have 916 toughness, which is base toughness at level 80. You sir, are the squishiest of the squish. You shall be called squishy, and you shall be mine, and you shall be my squishy.

2.) As a person who avidly plays Thief backstab builds, I can honestly say you’re blowing this way out of proportion. In order to pull off a proper backstab, and take off a respectable chunk of your health without you instantly retaliating, I need four or five of my cooldowns up, including Steal. For every minute I’m in PvP, and I’m alone and not in a group, I will spend 5-10 seconds of that minute actually fighting. Because that 5-10 second window is the only chance that I have to burst without the threat of immediate and deadly retaliation. A proper backstab Thief is also very, very, very squishy, and we will melt immediately when exposed to small amounts of damage.

3.) We aren’t even the most OP thing in the game. As a shatter Mesmer, I’m sure you know this. Not only can Mind Wrack hit for upwards of 7000+ damage (plus it’s technically an AoE), you also have invisibility, invulnerability, teleportation, Phantasms, and Time Warp. If you INSIST on complaining about profession imbalance, take a serious look at yourself because you probably abuse one of the most unfair builds in the entire game, right beside backstab Thieves.

Good day to you, sir.

Again, it’s all about counters. A shatter mesmer has a counter. You move around and you can dodge them running to you. Many skilled players have avoided my shatters.

When someone steals+backstabs you starting from stealth, there IS no counter. Enjoy your backstab days while you can because you know it’s gonna be nerfed.

Nuffed said.

jportell.2197:

yes this is true. I am however of the philosophy that if you are a Glass Cannon just be ready for the wet sneeze that will make you crumple. I run GC builds a lot as well and its great but I die a lot too just incase I get caught off guard. Its just one of those things that is inherent about being a glass cannon. And the only class that can really be GC and survivable is thieves due to stealth and its not that stealth makes them invuln or anything people just stop and wait with their thumbs in their you know where waiting to get killed.

I’m actually comfortable with fighting thieves. I know to dodge, swing around to avoid a backstab etc. I’d written about a possible issue on the forums earlier at the request of the moderators: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback/page/46#post1356994

I used to die a lot more often against thieves till I learned how to counter them. But like I said, this is still absurd. As a mesmer I have a lot of other defensive skills like Decoy, Blink, and of course my clones to divert damage away from me. I don’t need to rely too much on armor. But this bursting from initial stealth when you never even know the thief is there…has no counter.

It should be impossible.

jportell.2197:

@Bhagwad. you can build your Mesmer to bunker. I have to agree with the rest here that your total armor is not 2800 the number on the right is the sum of the number on the left plus your base armor. However for those that think a Mesmer needs to reroll just to bunker. It is entirely possible to out bunker guardians (not ele’s) as a Mesmer by going 0/0/20/20/30. Give it a shot and run all soldiers. You will shine.

I agree I was wrong about the armor. I’ve also played a bunker mesmer with a retaliation build – as someone posted here a while ago called “The immortal mesmer build”.

I just enjoy this playstyle more. And while it makes me more susceptible to damage, there should be limits.

daydream.2938:

To quote the devs. “thiefs give new players alot of trouble, but kinda fade out the higher level of play you get to”

I’ve beaten a lot of thieve and gotten beat by them too. I used to die a lot more when I was starting out, but by lvl 30 I know how to counter them.

This however, is still unacceptable.

Daecollo.9578:

Your first mistake was assuming your alone, never assume your alone in pvp.

Again, this doesn’t matter when we’re talking about 0.5 second reaction times. I’d like to see you do the same. It’s not humanly possible no matter how skilled you are. By the time your finger has pressed an escape button you’ve lost 18k health.

If you see the thief first and then they stealth you can take defensive measures. Not when they start out in stealth.

Be reasonable.

Unless you’re advocating that we all bot.

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

Well, heres the deal, I said “Play a Guardian” if you don’t have the skill to be bursted down as another class, its a soft fix.

Again, you’re being a jerk and deliberately unhelpful. Please tell me how a “skillful” mesmer would counter a burst that starts 100% from stealth?
.
.
.
crickets

I still believe though that you might have some useful insights. If I can only pry them out of you. But it takes two to have a meaningful discussion. I did my best.

Using a Staff, pressing ‘2’ when he hears the stealth noise.

Fail. Either deliberately dense or didn’t read anything. We’re talking about never hearing anything. We’re talking about thinking you’re alone one moment and down on the ground the next.

Daecollo.9578:

Well, heres the deal, I said “Play a Guardian” if you don’t have the skill to be bursted down as another class, its a soft fix.

Again, you’re being a jerk and deliberately unhelpful. Please tell me how a “skillful” mesmer would counter a burst that starts 100% from stealth?
.
.
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crickets

I still believe though that you might have some useful insights. If I can only pry them out of you. But it takes two to have a meaningful discussion. I did my best.

Daecollo.9578:

Its called Aegis and Virtue of Courage, if you don’t like thieves, maybe you should play Guardian? It has a low skill cap and a lot of there skills are well rounded to be against burst.

Mesmer however is not, and takes a much higher skill cap.

Lol. I don’t think you need to say anything more. Your solution to not being bursted from stealth is to play a guardian.

QED.

PS. Everyone has something meaningful to contribute. I’m sure you do too. So why are you acting like a jerk?

Daecollo.9578:

The counter is block, aegis, death shroud, stun removal, teleport…

There is also bunkering, and many other things you can do.

You could also ltp, but that may require more thought and skill.

Umm…“Block” 100% of the time just in case a thief is lurking? Stun removal when you need reflex times of 0.5 seconds?

Don’t bullkitten me and troll. Instead, why don’t you meaningfully contribute to this discussion?

Eduardo.4675:

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

Yes, he is completely full glass, and then he is surprised… whats more ridiculous, he insists that “i didnt know he was there”, which means lack of awareness. This kind of inflamatory anti class posts freak me out.

Facts are facts. Whether it’s anti class is entirely upto you. I didn’t put that spin on it. You did.

When you arrive at a point and see no one, and the next second you’re on the ground, I challenge you to tell me what kind of awareness you’re talking about?

Don’t defend the indefensible.

Dude, if you wanna make a stand that a thief should not do 7k dmg with steal and 14k with backstab, go ahead, im not stoping you, in fact im in favor of reducing some skill modifiers: BS down from 2.4 to 2.0, and most importantly, heartseeker should only have 2 states, not 3, with the second one starting at less than 66% HP and reducing the skill modifier from 2.0 (almost the same as a perfect BS) to 1.6. Im a thief, with all my heart, but i understand that ppl are revolted with “cheeselers”, so be it. It would be a way to separate the wheat from the chaff. However, you cannot lie. If you do so, and i see the post, ill post back. Im very familiar with #s, and i know when ppl lie about their stats. This post climbed on a lie to gain strenght, and that is not fair.
My 2 cents.

Edit: you dont know how to read the stats panel. A mesmer has 916 tufness base and 920 defense base. Thas a total of 1836, not 2800. You are adding the base tufness on the left with the TOTAL armor on the right. Hence, you lied, either intentionally or by lack of knowledge. In both ways, it doesnt make you look pretty. And you still try to defend you defenseless point.

I have NO problems with 7k or even 14k damage. BUT, everything has (or should have) a counter. As a mesmer, my damage is possible only when the conditions are right. There are plenty of situations when it’s just not possible and I have to run.

I also have no issues being screwed by a skilled player. It’s happened lots of times. Sometimes by thieves themselves. It always sucks naturally but it’s fair. I replay the match (I record them), see what I did wrong, , see what the other person did to me and how I can counter it the next time.

My problem with this particular combo from stealth is that there is no counter. It’s understandable if the thief was there, then vanished and I start dodging around to avoid a backstab, the thief is good and skillful so lands it anyway and this happens a couple of times and I die. That’s ok. That’s a fair fight. That’s something I can improve on and learn to play better.

But to START a combo from stealth with NO chance of counterattack, with NO chance to use a stunbreaker….I have HUGE problems with that. Because it doesn’t have a counter. There’s nothing I can do about it. I can’t say “Next time I’ll try xyz….”

No. This is just wrong. Glass cannon or not, it should require skill to turn out that kind of damage on anyone.

Khyras.8021:

You have 916 toughness and 1800 armor not 2800 from what i see. You probably copied glass cannon build off the internet then you went to pvp to kill your fellow players but got jumped by another no skill required burster, then you came here to complain about how unfair life is. Game is unbalanced in both 1vs1 and 5vs5, maybe you just realized that now, for the most PvPers tho it is a well known fact.

I’ve been playing since beta. From your comments I can only surmise that either you have no idea of what you’re talking about or you play a thief yourself. Saying “The game is unbalanced” is a bug. Not a feature!

Eduardo.4675:

As all can see now, the OP lied. He has 1836 armor, not 2800. I was right. To achieve 2800 armor, he needs 964 tufness, as I said above. I knew he was lying. Thats why i said all that about amulets. And appears as though i know quite a lot, mesmer. You, on the other hand, know nothing.
Edit: daecollo, when i made that post, i didnt see the second screenie.

Define “lie”. Read up the terminology on the wiki. I was giving you the total armor since toughness is a straight add up to it.

Regardless – this kind of damage compressed into an instant should be impossible. NO class should be able to do this to anyone. I’ve doled out a lot of damage myself. I know what is “high” damage and what is “impossible damage”.

At least it should require some skill to do this. As a mesmer, I have to look at positioning, make sure my clones are out, immobilize the target to shatter etc. Please tell me what skill is being displayed to deal out this absurd damage?

This is from stealth. It’s not as if I saw him and he vanished and I relaxed. I NEVER SAW HIM!

Eduardo.4675:

Yes, he is completely full glass, and then he is surprised… whats more ridiculous, he insists that “i didnt know he was there”, which means lack of awareness. This kind of inflamatory anti class posts freak me out.

Facts are facts. Whether it’s anti class is entirely upto you. I didn’t put that spin on it. You did.

When you arrive at a point and see no one, and the next second you’re on the ground, I challenge you to tell me what kind of awareness you’re talking about?

Don’t defend the indefensible.

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

OP, I dont believe you a single bit. Im almost sure you are lying. The only way a mesmer achieves 2800 armor is by adding 964 tufness, and im pretty sure there is no build out there (on a mesmer) that recommends adding 1K tufness. If you have a build with shaman amulet on a mesmer, thats a very weird build, and in that case i dont believe you know how to fight thieves. You would need 300 points from traits + amulet and jewel with tufness as secondary stat to achive 2780 armor, which is still 20 tufness shy of 2800. So, what do you have to say?

Doesn’t matter if you disbelieve me. I just added another screenshot with my hero stats.

Looks like your wearing the berserker’s amulet… you have 900 toughness… and your a cloth wearer, so weakest base defense…

It doesn’t justify instant down from full health when I thought I was alone. I’ve attached my hero stats.

It does, your a squishy DPS, you have “NO POINTS IN THE TOUGHNESS OR VITALITY TREE.” you have “THE DPS AMULET.”

All your traits are for damage, and your reaction speed is terrible.

You deserved being one shot, sorry.

Sorry. I know what is reasonable and what isn’t. If you say I’m full DPS, then I should be able to down someone in 0.5 seconds. I can’t. Because it’s not meant to happen.

I’m lvl 29 and I know what high damage is. This is aburd. I’m not denying that I’m susceptible to damage. But there’s a limit.

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Eduardo.4675:

OP, I dont believe you a single bit. Im almost sure you are lying. The only way a mesmer achieves 2800 armor is by adding 964 tufness, and im pretty sure there is no build out there (on a mesmer) that recommends adding 1K tufness. If you have a build with shaman amulet on a mesmer, thats a very weird build, and in that case i dont believe you know how to fight thieves. You would need 300 points from traits + amulet and jewel with tufness as secondary stat to achive 2780 armor, which is still 20 tufness shy of 2800. So, what do you have to say?

Doesn’t matter if you disbelieve me. I just added another screenshot with my hero stats.

Looks like your wearing the berserker’s amulet… you have 900 toughness… and your a cloth wearer, so weakest base defense…

It doesn’t justify instant down from full health when I thought I was alone. I’ve attached my hero stats.

Daecollo.9578:

bhagwad.4281:

Now let me make it clear that I know how to fight thieves. I know how to try and avoid a backstab when they stealth. But I first have to know they’re there! I have to know I’m fighting one. I have 17k health and 2800 armor.

This just happened to me. Never saw him coming. Didn’t even know he was there. I don’t care what the design philosophy is, this just shouldn’t be possible.

Exactly what skill is required to pull this off? Downing a player from full health in literally zero time?

Anet – what exactly the kitten are you doing about this?

Don’t use Frenzy.
Get Toughness.
Use a Stun breaker.
Get more defensive abilities.
Put defensive things on your Utility Slot.

Irrelevant. I thought I was alone. What stunbreakers are you going to use in 0.2 seconds? And what utility slots? I was down before I even saw him.

I attached my hero stats, so don’t tell me I don’t have toughness and health.

Eduardo.4675:

OP, I dont believe you a single bit. Im almost sure you are lying. The only way a mesmer achieves 2800 armor is by adding 964 tufness, and im pretty sure there is no build out there (on a mesmer) that recommends adding 1K tufness. If you have a build with shaman amulet on a mesmer, thats a very weird build, and in that case i dont believe you know how to fight thieves. You would need 300 points from traits + amulet and jewel with tufness as secondary stat to achive 2780 armor, which is still 20 tufness shy of 2800. So, what do you have to say?

Doesn’t matter if you disbelieve me. I just added another screenshot with my hero stats. As you can see I indeed have 916 toughness.

Apparently you don’t know as much as you think.

Mssg.7804:

Well my friend, this is hotjoin… He prop get like xxx buffs and hotjoints are generaly kittenfest where every1 die in 2 sec. On paids or frees u know if u fight agains thief and u know when u may expect him, ur teammates should be active and informative about positions of other players.

Dont play hotjoints, I stop palying hj cuz hj make me sad.

good luck

I disagree. I love hotjoins. Sure, it may be a killfest but it still requires skill. I’ve been outplayed many times and I don’t like it, but it’s fair. I even say “Well played” at the end of it.

But this? I can’t commend the thief for pressing two buttons. There is no skill required to do that. I thought I was alone. Didn’t even know he was there.

Now let me make it clear that I know how to fight thieves. I know how to try and avoid a backstab when they stealth. But I first have to know they’re there! I have to know I’m fighting one. I have 17k health and 2800 armor.

This just happened to me. Never saw him coming. Didn’t even know he was there. I don’t care what the design philosophy is, this just shouldn’t be possible.

Exactly what skill is required to pull this off? Downing a player from full health in literally zero time?

Anet – what exactly the kitten are you doing about this?

Edit: It happened again just now. May be the same guy I don’t know. And for those who’re wondering what my stats are, I also attached the hero panel

Edit: I was wrong about 2800 armor – I was adding the toughness to it. It’s 1800. But my point still stands that no matter what your armor is, it should be impossible to compress so much damage into such little time. See my detailed explanation here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Ridiculous-Steal-Backstab-17k-in-sPvP/1406500

Often while casting spells and phantasms, I get the “obstructed” message even though I can see the other guy right up to their knees. This happens if they’re slightly elevated like in the Foefire sPvP map and the other person is standing on the quarry or waterfall.

It doesn’t make sense. I’ve tried jumping while casting and it doesn’t help. It essentially means I have to run right onto the platform before I start casting giving the other guys plenty of time to do their own damage.

If it’s obstructed for me, it should be obstructed for them too! But no – the person on the platform can cast spells on me with just a foot of elevation.

Does anyone know what exactly constitutes "obstructed?

So what exactly are the rules for getting out of combat. It’s not distance cause I’ve sometimes run to the other end of the sPvP map and still remained in combat. It’s not enemies around – sometimes there’s no one for anywhere close. It’s kitten off because while dueling in sPvP we don’t stomp and let the other person heal up, but since we’re still in combat we gotta use heal skills maybe two or three times to start again and that takes time.

Much better if we knew the rules for when exactly we leave combat so we can heal up normally.

I’m becoming more and more convinced that most people in sPvP aren’t interested in capping points or killing lords. They just wanna get into a bust up with adrenaline running high and keep respawning only to go back there.

How else does one explain one team having all three points for quite a while without anyone contesting them? For those of us trying to cap points, it’s boring when all three belong to you and nothing’s getting contested.

What these guys want is actually a plain old deathmatch with no more strategy to it. Give them a large arena and the first team to kill the other wins. End of story.

Let the rest of us play the capping game as we want. More fun for everyone and we’re all happy.

Posting here at moderator’s request: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block/first#post1356947

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.

It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

I have two or three variations on my mesmer for PvP. Each time I want to change I have to manually remember which traits I liked for each build as well as build the runes etc from scratch.

Couldn’t we have a way to save each profile so we could immediately switch between various builds? If I remember correctly, this feature was there in the original GW1

Favorite moments (I’m a mesmer):

1. Killing a thief after they jump you from behind out of nowhere. You can almost smell the disbelief

2. You’re at 15% health, running away and that guy just won’t stop chasing you. So you turn and fight and manage to kill him down from full health

3. Killing a thief

4. Downing a warrior, wait for them to rise up using vengeance….and then just run away leaving them to fume

5. Killing a thief

6. Epic 1vs1 battles usually with eles, and tanky necros

7. Did I mention nuking thieves? And then revel in the outrage they display in chat saying “kittening mesmers!” or “Mesmers are OP” etc etc.

8. The match ends and you start dancing regardless of who’s hitting you. Then someone else notices and they start dancing too!

I also really love killing thieves btw.

Jayne.9251:

Why not actually go in to one of your keeps and build the siege. Then you can go and your server will love you. Win-win.

As far as I know, there’s no benefit to me for doing that. Or perhaps I’m missing something?

I feel it’s a waste for me to keep destroying the siege weapon plans I get from the jumping puzzle. They just use up space in my inventory and I merely want the badges of honor to work up to my legendary.

I understand there are people who’d like to have siege weapon plans for WvW stuff. Can Anet allow us to sell the plans on the TP just so I don’t have to waste them by tearing them up?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

A guard as you say will definetly drop against 2 dmg dealer. It’s just a matter how long they need.
An ele will drop too against 2 dmg dealer. You allrdy said this.

For the thief: Just wait till he has no stealth. Done. I don’t get the point that you need to follow a thief with 2 ppl? As you see you take 2 bunkers in your list, what’s the point of a thief to burst then but can’t kill anyway? If you have 2 ppl against a thief, how is he able to cap? Never ever sir.

If you notice, I gave the example of the guardian as a class that is not OP. They certainly go down in a 2 vs 1 at the cost of having almost no damage.

The Ele bunker on the other hand has defense/healing and dishes out heavy damage against two players of comparable skill level. It’s a dangerous struggle. Hence the my definition kicks in.

As for waiting for the thief to come out of stealth…duh! It’s not enough if they can quickly stealth again and come back with a lot more health and run away when they’re starting to lose the fight. That gives two players too much trouble against a single player.

I don’t recall saying anything about capping while in stealth. To me that’s irrelevant.

And that’s the heart of what I’m saying. Two players should never struggle against a single player.