Guild Wars 2

Dasorine.1964:

plus a 14k backstab is extremely hard to get and will most likely have required team buffs and such to get. And yes classes should be able to do that IF YOU DECIDE NOT TO UTILIZE ANY DEFENSE.

Oh yeah? Which other class can do this? Remember this is from stealth and in less than a second so no chance for defensive measures.

No one is complaining that GC’s are squishy and that they die. It’s a fact of life. But there is such a thing known as counterplay. With skillful play you should be able to react and negate damage even if you’re a GC.

This burst from stealth doesn’t allow for any counterplay. And so I repeat – no one should be able to do this.

Dasorine.1964:

a mug and backstab isn’t going to be enough to kill anyone in that combination realistically psybunny unless you get really lucky and the mug drops someone to 50% hp or less the HS is going to do no real damage, but for a mug to drop someone to half health you have to be perfect glass (with situational boosts) against a glass thief/ele/guardian, the second two of which have to not have their boons on at all, but again thats glass cannons killing glass cannons, anyone who actively removes all defense from their build or runs around as an uplevel really can’t complain when someone else kills them.

No matter what the class or build, you shouldn’t be able to down a person in an instant in sPvP. And for those who say that mug + backstab never takes a person down, here’s proof:

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/44950/Untitled.png

Glass cannon or not, this happened from stealth without any chance to react. It’s not as if it was a fair duel with “/bow” happening first. This came out of nowhere.

No other class can do this. No class should be able to do this to anyone.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

The effort required to get the PvP monthly should be drastically scaled up along with the rewards in order to make it remotely appealing to the PvXers out there that might actually take an interest in sinking more time to get it.

That said, I only play in sPvP, so it is of absolutely no consequence to me that I get some monthly stuff to toss into my locker. The competition is the only true reward in sPvP.

I wish they had better rank/glory rewards for winning matches at higher skill levels. Yes PvP is fun, but fun isn’t enough. As of now the matchmaking system ensures that a person always has a 50/50 chance of winning. What the use of being skilled if you still get the same rewards as before?

swinsk.6410:

MrForz.1953:

bhagwad.4281:

Wake me up when other classes can one shot GCs without warning and at range.

Well, even an Engi’s Static Discharge Rifle build can do that, if you really want to open debates.

Mesmer with s/p + shatter and illusionary leap.

This happens without warning? Really? I can’t take evasive measures? Thief’s can one shot GCs who don’t even know they’re there. No question of evasive measures.

Vayra.3290:

If you truly are skilled you should be happy that it matches you against people that should be challenging to fight instead of someone you stand no chance of beating or will just faceroll. PvP is not about rewards, it’s about fun and challenging yourself against equal/better opposition.

I disagree – We play to rank up and get glory. Everyone plays for rewards. Otherwise you might as well remove armor, drops and anything else that people strive for. “Fun” is not enough.

And the better you become, the more rewards you should get. Either it should be random or the rank rewards should become better given the average skill level of the players.

Let’s assume that matchmaking works perfectly and that you fight against people who are around your skill level. This means that ideally you have a 50/50 chance of winning regardless of how skilled you are or what percentile you’re in. Basically you get rank points at the same rate if you’re a top player or a bottom one.

To me this defeats the purpose of becoming better. Either the rewards for higher skilled matches needs to go up so the 50/50 ratio pays better rank/glory points than unskilled ones or you need to be matched up randomly – at least for solo queue.

Bottom line – if I play well I’d like better rewards. That cannot happen if I still have a 50/50 chance of winning regardless of how much my skill improves.

Tek.4083:

@Pyro Ive played 1200 hours of mesmer, I know what the phantasms can do, and the gs pull on the phants will kill them. I have no idea what level of skill the guardians you were facing, I have met 3 good guards in my entire Mesmer Career. Yes they are easy to kite, but you have no blinks. And in battle, GS/hammer have ALOT of mobility. Being this a duel there will be no running. I know you also love your toughness, meaning you are missing out on burst. Like i said before this build murders in tpvp 1v1 and even 1vmany. I dont remember your server Pyro, but i know our servers have fought before, i just dont remember the specific server. I have never seen you at a duel, i am extremely curious of your skills as a mesmer. Do you accept tpvp duels? if you know something i dont, i wanna learn. as for the guardians you would have to face anykou. We are TC. As for me i would love to duel you,Anyone, anytime. As a learning experience on both parts. I wanna see what you say in action.

This is not a kitten waving contest. Let’s keep the rhetoric down instead of issuing personal challenges and saying “I’m awesome and know better”.

Incidentally, this build doesn’t have toughness so you may be referring to another one.

Tek.4083:

That trait though, i guess is unrelated, since its not in his build. If he has no spike, the guard will never die. When i say this, i keep skilled players in mind, If you have stomped a guardian, thats really awesome,but i have never seen a phant build ever stomp a good guard.

Even bunker guardians die to a phant build. No way they will have enough heals/protection to outlast the damage. They’ll have some blocks stored up initially but once those cooldowns go, they have nothing.

It may take a while, but they’ll go down alright.

Just FYI, Aegis doesn’t block the phantasm from summoning. I open with a sword phant, so when facing a guardian I make sure to hit them once with something before I summon so that my swordsman’s first strike isn’t wasted.

Guardians have blinds and blocks galore. Many thieves are traited to blind on stealth, so I have to be careful.

Here’s another tip. If you just decoy at the start, the enemy will see you “flicker” for a moment. He’ll know that you decoyed. What you need is a distraction to prevent him from seeing that.

So I decoy myself immediately following the first phantasm summon. This way, the swordsman comes out and that new piece of visual information covers the "minor’ info that you vanished for a split second. So your opponent will happily lock onto your clone thinking its you. Since it’s the start of the fight, both you and the clone will have full health so it’s not easy to tell you apart.

The signet can give you away though. As can finishers etc. But as long as you decoy at the start and cover it with a distraction, hopefully your opponent won’t notice.

Having a few seconds of extra free time at the start of the fight gives you a huge advantage as you pull your duelist out and set up for a blurred frenzy when they don’t expect it. If you’re fast you can do all that before they even realize that the clone they locked on to isn’t you.

Regular rotation from there on. I try and keep my distance from guardians so as to not be affected by their irritating blinds.

Wake me up when other classes can one shot GCs without warning and at range.

AFAIK, they’re crafted with slivers and paid tournament tokens.

Master Charles.7093:

bhagwad.4281:

Kurow.6973:

bhagwad.4281:

Meridian.8730:

IMO all professions should have SOME chance against all other professions.

Fair enough. But not all builds should have a chance against all other builds.

I HIGHLY disagree.

This isn’t rock, paper, scissors I’m playing here.

Well if you run a build that has obvious glaring weaknesses, what do you expect? If you run a build susceptible to conditions for example you have no business crying when a conditionmancer rips you up!

Conditions and condition builds themselves are too eccentric. There is rarely a build that can bring enough cleanses for all the conditions necros/engis/rangers can inundate a player with: that’s paper/rock/rock.

Yeah, you should have to make a good build, but builds shouldn’t also be indomitable and cheesy. Again, too eccentric.

On retal: just throw it out. It’s the same as protection but some of that damage just magically goes back on the attacker. What a lazy idea. How are you supposed to counter that, just stop attacking? Time is too important and keeping a constant eye on all your opponents numerous buffs just isn’t fun. We can’t all bring one of the few boon stripping moves, and ‘boon hate’… I’m sorry but that sounds like a very lame bandaid.

There are some very good strategies for retal mesmers and guardians. I know because I used to run a retal mesmer and used to get creamed by:

1. Necros and sometimes irritating caltrops thieves (conditions basically)
2. Boon strippers
3. Anyone with large single hits. Phantasm memsers, shatter mesmers, well played d/d thieves
4. Anyone that uses pets/minions/AI to do damage instead of doing it themselves

There are definitely counters to retal. Sure any build will not have all of these techniques available to them. But a good build should surely have at least one. If a build has none of the above, then…well…I guess they just found a hard counter to their particular set up!

Kurow.6973:

bhagwad.4281:

Meridian.8730:

IMO all professions should have SOME chance against all other professions.

Fair enough. But not all builds should have a chance against all other builds.

I HIGHLY disagree.

This isn’t rock, paper, scissors I’m playing here.

Well if you run a build that has obvious glaring weaknesses, what do you expect? If you run a build susceptible to conditions for example you have no business crying when a conditionmancer rips you up!

Seryi.7936:

bhagwad.4281:

Right. By that logic every single aspect of the game is something developers intended and nothing should ever be fixed!

Remember when you tPvP you make a commitment to your team. You live and die with them. When you abandon your team you break that commitment and will get a debuff like you deserve. If you want to just look out for yourself, go to hotjoin.

If you solo join, you may be alone initially but you’re put into an arena with people who are your TEAM. You work together and you stick it out no matter how bad it is.

Like I said before, it was there in GW1 and it’s coming to GW2 whether you like it or not.

FYI I have never left a tPvP tournament even if two guys leave. I stay and fight till the game is over. Even if the score is 470 – 80. Or whatever.

Because to leave would be a betrayal of the team I voluntarily joined up with.

“When you solo queue, you make a commitment to your team and you should stay there whether you like it or not!”

So where’s the dishonorable hex then if it was so successful, hm?

It’s a game. If you think it’s completely balanced and fair to pair solo queuers up against premades because it’s ‘the right thing to do’ and your ‘commitment’…wow. Just wow.

As long as solo queuers are going to be put up against premades, you’re going to see leavers and AFKers, whether you like it or not. If you actually bothered to make the playing field SOMEWHAT balanced, then sure, add a dishonorable hex.

But until then, it’s a band-aid solution at best, and not even a good one – and it won’t stop people from ditching, whether you like it or not. You should try reading before you post.

So your entire argument is “It’s not there now therefore it’s not meant to be there”. Same flaw as last time since that would imply the game is perfect as it is.

And yes – if you solo queue up against a premade you should stay even if you lose. Because your teammates will have it even worse and you left them in the lurch and broke your commitment.

If you’re going to leave for any reason other than a disconnect or the door ringing or whatever, don’t tPvP. Go to hot join instead. And soon when leavers are punished you’ll be forced to do this whether you like it or not.

Meridian.8730:

IMO all professions should have SOME chance against all other professions.

Fair enough. But not all builds should have a chance against all other builds.

Seryi.7936:

bhagwad.4281:

Thieves are unnecessarily annoying not OP. And way to go off topic.

I don’t understand who’s forcing you to play PvP or who’s forcing you to sign up for a tPvP tournament in the first place. If you don’t like it, don’t. But if you do, you signal that you’re willing to give your very best with your team.

If you leave, you deserve to be punished. No one will take you to court – don’t worry. It’s not a legally binding contract. But you will be punished regardless. They had it in GW1 and it’s only a matter of time before they bring it here too.

Too bad for you.

It has nothing to do with anybody forcing you to play so much as it is you wanting to punish players who never had a chance in the first place, because they solo queued and got put up against a premade of guys all from the same guild on VOIP.

If you can’t understand the point why this is causing issues, I bid you to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. Or maybe you’re one of those premade guys who feels some sense of superiority by farming pugs?

It doesn’t matter anyway, because clearly if the developers agreed with you, they would’ve put in the dishonorable hex to begin with rather then wait to fix these issues. Nobody is going to stay in a game so they can get farmed by a premade when they SOLO QUEUED. They’re not obligated to stay there and get crushed for you and your guildies’ amusement.

Too bad for you.

Right. By that logic every single aspect of the game is something developers intended and nothing should ever be fixed!

Remember when you tPvP you make a commitment to your team. You live and die with them. When you abandon your team you break that commitment and will get a debuff like you deserve. If you want to just look out for yourself, go to hotjoin.

If you solo join, you may be alone initially but you’re put into an arena with people who are your TEAM. You work together and you stick it out no matter how bad it is.

Like I said before, it was there in GW1 and it’s coming to GW2 whether you like it or not.

FYI I have never left a tPvP tournament even if two guys leave. I stay and fight till the game is over. Even if the score is 470 – 80. Or whatever.

Because to leave would be a betrayal of the team I voluntarily joined up with.

Seryi.7936:

or in full glass.

Being in glass doesn’t justify downing in half a second. It’s happened many times in sPvP. 3 seconds I can understand. Less than one? No way.

But this isn’t about ridiculous burst damage. It’s about stealth allowing thieves to reset fights where they should have rightly died.

It’s also about being able to solo 5 people (even if they’re bad players). No other class can do that. Noone should be able to do that. 5 people should always always be able to beat a single player no matter how talented.

Seryi.7936:

bhagwad.4281:

People will always leave regardless. Even in GW1 people used to leave. And they were punished. There’s no need to offer a carrot to stay when a nice fat stick will do just fine. It’s not as if it’s not deserved.

And how do you know the ranks of either your team members or the other party before the match starts anyway? In any case it doesn’t matter. Stay or get penalized.

Yeah, I’m sure your change would help the PvP that’s already on its last legs. People on this forum make me laugh sometimes. Then again, you’re a guy who actually thinks thieves are overpowered…LOL.

Maybe if you start by separating solo and team queuers, you’ll get a lot more people inclined to stay and play a match out rather then quit or AFK. Until then, no, people aren’t going to stay to get farmed…so enjoy it.

People would take PvP way more seriously if it was balanced in the first place.

Thieves are unnecessarily annoying not OP. And way to go off topic.

I don’t understand who’s forcing you to play PvP or who’s forcing you to sign up for a tPvP tournament in the first place. If you don’t like it, don’t. But if you do, you signal that you’re willing to give your very best with your team.

If you leave, you deserve to be punished. No one will take you to court – don’t worry. It’s not a legally binding contract. But you will be punished regardless. They had it in GW1 and it’s only a matter of time before they bring it here too.

Too bad for you.

cuge.5398:

This might be a useful question for many of us, what does that % means ? For instance, if someone has 90% is him really close to get into the leaderboard or really far ? What is that % related to ?

thx

They state that it’s the “percentile”. So “90%” means that you’re in the top 10%. Or that 90% of the observations are below you.

Feel good about yourself

Seryi.7936:

bhagwad.4281:

No one’s taking you to court and filing a case against you for leaving. This is a private community. And if you make an agreement to play, then you better kitten well play. Or don’t queue.

Give people a reason to care beyond a rank that, in the current state of balance and absolutely bonkers matchmaking, doesn’t even matter.

Until then, people will continue to leave when they feel there’s no reason to stay.

PvP in this game is a complete joke at the moment. Pay me to care – or don’t get upset when I leave rather then face another premade full of players thirty ranks above me.

People will always leave regardless. Even in GW1 people used to leave. And they were punished. There’s no need to offer a carrot to stay when a nice fat stick will do just fine. It’s not as if it’s not deserved.

And how do you know the ranks of either your team members or the other party before the match starts anyway? In any case it doesn’t matter. Stay or get penalized.

phor.7952:

bhagwad.4281:

What I said was that no matter what the class, no other profession can solo five people regardless of skill level on either side. No single person should be able to harass a group of 5 people no matter how unskilled they are.

Because it’s impossible to become five times more skilled than even the noobest character. I’ll take a team with 15 poor players against 5 of the top notch pros in the world any day.

Whether you like it or not, including “no matter how skilled” in your argument is an admission that you’re referencing bad players because the only evidence presented showing a single person taking on 5 people has been a good thief against really bad players.

I would COMPLETELY agree that it would be OP if a thief were able to take out 5 good players. Hell, even 2 good players is a stretch as long as they’re not geared berserker and get caught off guard.

But the evidence presented only proves that a thief is “OP” against bad players.
And you simply can’t balance a game around bad players. It’s a waste of time.

You can certainly balance against bad players when there are enough of them. The fact remains that no class other than thief can kill 5 bad players solo. They can at most try and run or down one or two before dying themselves.

Seryi.7936:

Empiren.6401:

Except he queued for it, therefore he accepted an obligation to play with the other 4.

Uhh, no. When I solo queue, I’m not signing a contract saying I’m obligated to play with anybody. I’m queuing up to a play a frigging game and have some fun.

If that means leaving because the other team has 450 points to our 120 and ticking upwards, or because the matchmaking put me in a stupidly imbalanced match-up (Hi rank 30-40 premades!), you’re kitten right I’ll do it.

I didn’t sign anything legally binding me to sit there and get facerolled, farmed, or remain there when it’s already over. I paid for this game to be entertained, not hold hands with everybody.

All these punishments would do is make PvP more of a ghost town then it already is, anyway.

If you want people to stay in tournament matches, give them incentives to do so beyond a meaningless rank.

No one’s taking you to court and filing a case against you for leaving. This is a private community. And if you make an agreement to play, then you better kitten well play. Or don’t queue.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

I have had luck just stating a strategy when entering the map. Usually at least one will respond, and the rest follow the 2 that are on the same page, so it works (kinda, its not like a premade with voice).

Rank is meaningless. I have beaten premades with a 4 players all under rank 10 on my team. Some guys get it, some don’t, and the number of matches you’ve played isn’t always the best indicator of understanding. Is more experience better? Of course, but it isn’t the only thing.

People who PvP successfully are generally abrupt in their statements, not because they are rude, but because time is a factor. Try being more direct, because asking tends to burn that precious time that you have before the match starts, which is the best time to get people on the same page.

I don’t think “burning time” is a problem in this case because it’s not as if the rest of them were engaged in some crucial game changing discussion. They were just hanging around doing god knows what.

phor.7952:

bhagwad.4281:

snip
I’m afraid this video merely proves my point. No profession other than the thief is arrogant enough to assume that they’re better than 5 people combined.

They’re not. It’s the class mechanic that allows it to happen.

But you basically admit that it’s only “overpowered” against bad players…
So are you seriously asking Anet to balance around bad players?

You’re asking the impossible.
Even Starcraft2 (whose balance team has worked for decades and only has 3 “classes” to deal with) can’t balance the races across every skill level. Nor should they.

Huh what? I didn’t say anything of the sort.

What I said was that no matter what the class, no other profession can solo five people regardless of skill level on either side. No single person should be able to harass a group of 5 people no matter how unskilled they are.

Because it’s impossible to become five times more skilled than even the noobest character. I’ll take a team with 15 poor players against 5 of the top notch pros in the world any day.

Dasorine.1964:

bhagwad.4281:

swinsk.6410:

That video does not show anything about balance.

It’s a skilled player vs. a bunch of bads mostly. The players he downs and stomps are usually bads even if there is a decent player around.

I guarantee you if you take the most skilled GW2 player in the world and pit them against the worst players who don’t even know what their skill bars do, they would still die to 4-5 of them on any profession other than the thief.

Show me another video of the same type utilizing another profession downing a group of five people. I’d like to see it.

You may not like it, but no one is that good. At the most one person can solo two or maybe three others. If they can reliably take on more than that, then there’s something seriously wrong with balance.

More people should always win provided the others are not just standing around doing nothing. There are limits to how far “skill” should take you.

Choose a random class, put in gw2 wvw solo you tube it = there you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuLki4fP648

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeD5yRL2i3Q

They aren’t proof of anything other than WvW is filled with uplevels and a good player can beat bad players

Nope:

First video: Guardian never solos more than 2 people. In fact, at one point there are five people and the video display says “Death inevitable”!

Because everyone knows that no one no matter how good can ever solo 4 people at the same time. I’m afraid this video merely proves my point. No profession other than the thief is arrogant enough to assume that they’re better than 5 people combined.

They’re not. It’s the class mechanic that allows it to happen.

Second video: Engineer at no point solos 4-5 people.

I’m sorry but nothing compared to the thief video shown here. No profession no matter how well played should ever be able to take down 4-5 people solo even against complete noobs.

Heroes don’t exist.

swinsk.6410:

That video does not show anything about balance.

It’s a skilled player vs. a bunch of bads mostly. The players he downs and stomps are usually bads even if there is a decent player around.

I guarantee you if you take the most skilled GW2 player in the world and pit them against the worst players who don’t even know what their skill bars do, they would still die to 4-5 of them on any profession other than the thief.

Show me another video of the same type utilizing another profession downing a group of five people. I’d like to see it.

You may not like it, but no one is that good. At the most one person can solo two or maybe three others. If they can reliably take on more than that, then there’s something seriously wrong with balance.

More people should always win provided the others are not just standing around doing nothing. There are limits to how far “skill” should take you.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

From a tPvP perspective:

Passive stealth regen/condition removal, stealth stomping/ressing, and Thieves guild. That is all.

That’s the only reason I dislike Thieves (Mesmers as well), they pop into stealth with 20 conditions on them and dying with less than 10% health. 5 seconds later they come out clean, almost fully healed and with a bunch of highly-damaging AI around them. Honestly? Don’t get me started about Shadow Refuge ressing/stomping.

Oh, and the fact that every thief on the planet spams either Heartseeker, DeathBlossom, or Pistolwhip (This not so much after the nerf) as though they make a thousand dollars every click of the same overused worn out button. I kind of want to see how many Thief mainers have their ‘2’ key completely disintegrated.

Please don’t lump thieves and mesmers together

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Don-t-Lump-Mesmers-with-Thieves-on-Stealth/first#post1813504

mbh.8301:

I don’t think that 4 players should be able to ruin everything for the other one.
If he doesn’t want to pvp then he has no obligation to you or the community to stay in the match.

Yes he does. He signed up for it and based on that, others are present. He very much has an obligation to fulfill. A ban is extremely reasonable.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Bhagwad, look at the ranks of your team and then look back at your post.
By now you should know that your post has no sense or anything of that nature.

Low ranks are not stupid. Neither does it mean they can’t put up a good fight. I don’t mind losing. I mind losing when we could have easily done much better.

garethh.3518:

You had a rank 1 and 3, a 3v5 won’t really ever turn out well for you while pugging.

No matter how outmatched, I like to put up a good fight. By not communicating we ruined whatever little chance we had in the first place.

I would refuse to lay down and die even if every other person on the team was r1.

mbh.8301:

Strategy in this game is very fluid. Any plan that you try to set at the beginning is going to go right out the window after the first minute of play.

If you can’t do arithmetic on the fly or don’t have the stones to run around the map like it’s mario kart, then you might want to check out a different game.

Defining roles is very important. It’s not as simple as “you go here, you go there”. Proper strategy beforehand can last for the whole game.

Btw this is also not to minimize the importance of the first minute. The momentum gained in the first few minutes can have a lasting impact on the remainder. So don’t underestimate that either.

citizankane.5723:

I agree you were nice about it and didn’t know their ranks at the start so don’t take me the wrong way but they may have liked some guidance.

Many people don’t outright like being told what to do. I want to work with people not boss them around. So I indicate that I’m willing to talk and if people would like some help I can provide them with support…

But without that it’s not nice for one person to impose themselves onto a group of others no matter how low their rank is.

Even if I knew they were all r1, I would still have said the same thing…

Luthan.5236:

And now look at the glory ranks…
This is not only because of the communication. Experienced players look at the mini map and know where to go.

But I don’t think rank 1 or 3 are experienced.

I have about 50 percent wins and 50 percent loses and there is never communication and I also have seen wins with 500 to 1xx with no communication sometimes even if glory ranks(hopefully they get that new rating somehow into numbers and display it somewhere in game in the future) were lower on the own team… a bit higher at 10+ I think it is possible.

But rank 1 or 3… they are new they might not even know the map that well and just play tournament because they want more reward(the chest you can get).

I can understand if someone doesn’t know the map. That’s cool. In which case you need to just ask “Where do I go?”. If they don’t know the points I can simply say “Follow xyz person”.

Any of that is better than just keeping quiet and hoping you’ll win the match by magic.

citizankane.5723:

Ya they were prolly wondering why the highest rank member on the team was asking them for a strategy

Lol does anyone think that high ranking members are gods or something? . That’s a polite way of saying “let’s collaborate and hammer out a strategy”. It’s more polite than “This is what you have to do”.

Don’t people want to win tPvP? I mean that’s the freaking point right?

So I join a match and say “Hey team” and “What’s the strategy”.

crickets

I think I should break the ice and say “I’m going to their point”

crickets

After a looooong while one guys says “kay”. That’s it. Nothing about what the rest of them want to do, who goes where, no numbers nothing. That’s screenshot #1

Screenshot #2 is the final result. It was painfully obvious that no one was capturing the altar (our base point), no one was defending it, no plan – nothing. They were fighting completely useless skirmishes somewhere in the middle doing nothing of importance.

Need I mention that we were the blue team? Big surprise right?

Edit: I want to make it clear that this was before the match even started! So no excuses about not being able to fight and type at the same time.

The thief being able to run away when things don’t go their way is not punishment enough. Other classes die.

The thief can run away and then come back. They need to win just once. Other classes need to beat them in every encounter.

Disengaging is not punishment. If you attack and the other person is better than you, you should die. Period.

Other classes have escape mechanisms but you can at least somewhat counter them. You at least know when they’re running away. If the thief stealths, you don’t know which direction they’re running – ahead or behind. In fact you don’t know whether they’re going to run at all. I’ve fought many thieves who stealth and then I start dodging, swinging etc expecting an attack that never comes. The thief has run away.

But he’ll be back in a few mins. I guarantee it.

And THAT is unfair.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

bhagwad.4281:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

bhagwad.4281:

Or at least put it under the “5v5” games.I don’t think anyone will deny that 5v5 games are more about strategy and you get to know people better and they’re not some mindless zerg.

They actually did this for about 5 days. And it didn’t make hot-join heroes play them more.

Really? I didn’t know that. Did they write a blog post about it? How do you know more people didn’t play 5v5s during that time?

I would go to find a 5v5 server and they were all still empty except a few. A few times I would scroll down, and seen way more full 8v8 servers full than the 5v5.

Hmm…how about putting 8v8 matches on another tab? That should definitely help then. What we need is leavers in 5v5s to be replaced quickly. And the “Play now” button should give first preference to 5v5 arenas.

It’s not true that there’s no progression in PvP. Believe me I play PvP in GW2 only for the gear and rank progression and bragging rights.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

bhagwad.4281:

Or at least put it under the “5v5” games.I don’t think anyone will deny that 5v5 games are more about strategy and you get to know people better and they’re not some mindless zerg.

They actually did this for about 5 days. And it didn’t make hot-join heroes play them more.

Really? I didn’t know that. Did they write a blog post about it? How do you know more people didn’t play 5v5s during that time?

Or at least put it under the “5v5” games. I don’t think anyone will deny that 5v5 games are more about strategy and you get to know people better and they’re not some mindless zerg.

I gave up 8v8 quite a while ago. The only problem is that people keep leaving 5v5 for no earthly reason I can think of and new people don’t join in. So almost every 5v5 game eventually gets empty. Today at night, I literally couldn’t find even one that was a real game – just filled with dueling etc.

So I bit the bullet and joined an 8v8…and was instantly reminded of why I left in the first place. No banter, no strategy, no fun…just zergs. And people like this? I can only assume they haven’t given 5v5 a try and seen how much better it is.

Please Anet…remove 8v8. It doesn’t foster a good mentality, allows people to get away with weaknesses much more and absolutely precludes communication. When these same people then join a tPvP match with 5v5, they carry over their “no communication” credo and doom the rest of us.

Hopes:

1. Dueling.

The end.

I think it’s time to pay attention to what should be a rule in multi player games:

1 player should never be able to cause trouble to 2 or more players. No matter what the situation. If 1 player is able to do that, something needs to be buffed/nerfed somewhere.

daydream.2938:

Mortal combat doesn’t have build diversity…
All scorpions are the same, he cant move stats around, change up his gear or abilities, etc etc.

Anyways, getting sucked into a unproductive conversation. good luck to your ambitions sir.

To continue on this train of thought, a simple “rock paper scissors” set up consists of only three possible combinations and interactions. If you take the build diversity possible in GW2 today, you’ll quickly see that the permutations of possible build interactions escalates exponentially.

Basically to recreate a rock paper scissors scenario with 20 builds having the same probability of overcoming every other…is so absurd, it would take supercomputers of epic power to achieve such a scenario.

In other words, the outcome you fear most – rock paper scissors – requires superhuman computing to create. People don’t realize how difficult it is to deliberately create a rock paper scissors outcome in any situation of even medium complexity.

In reality there will be no such outcome. Don’t worry. 1v1s will not spoil anything.

daydream.2938:

Mortal combat doesn’t have build diversity…
All scorpions are the same, he cant move stats around, change up his gear or abilities, etc etc.

Anyways, getting sucked into a whirlpool waste of time conversation. good luck to your ambitions sir.

What can I say? Only that people have been happily 1v1’ing for months now without it becoming a rock paper scissors contest. Formalize it and you enrich the game that will have ramifications on all other aspects of the game.

Also, assuming a static rock paper scissors scenario implies that you think there is just one static Nash equilibrium for the entire set of classes and builds. Given the mind bogglingly large number of possible combinations, I think this is highly unlikely and even if so, would take several decades for the possibilities to be fleshed out and stabilized.

In short, any “rock paper scissors” scenario will be quickly disrupted by a new build. In fact, the data from duels will provide solid info to the developers to further zone in on what needs to be buffed/nerfed in the future since it’s an ongoing process.

I’m sorry, but I see nothing but good stuff coming from a 1v1 mode.

daydream.2938:

1vs1 cant be balanced without mirroring

I don’t understand. You’re making a lot of unfounded assertions here. Are all the Mortal Kombat characters “the same” and do they have the same skills? The fact that GW2 is played with a lot of people doesn’t mean that they can’t be played alone. There can be so much build diversity that I’m willing to bet most balanced builds haven’t even been discovered.

So no – you don’t need mirroring.

I don’t “want the developers to do something never done before”. It’s not that big a deal as you say it is. Like I mentioned, 1v1s have been going on for a long time putting paid to your assertion that it’s impossible. I’ve had great fights with all classes and many diverse builds. So whether you like it or not, it’s a reality.

All I want is for Arenanet to formalize it.

daydream.2938:

The issue is that in 1on1 its as much about rock paper scissors as it is about skill. If you happen to fight a reasonably equally skilled player running a build that counters yours, you lose.

Exactly. And this will motivate people to come up balanced builds that can cater to many more situations. This is exactly what we need right now.

Btw, merely because there’s a “can’t” in the sentence doesn’t mean I’m asking you to prove a negative. There is no “absence of evidence” = “evidence of absence” conundrum to solve here. “Proving a negative” means something completely different from what you seem to think it means. For example, I can prove conclusively that root 2 is not a rational number. Saying “root 2 is not rational” is not a “negative statement”.

Just saying.

All this is besides the point. The fact is that a rock paper scissors outcome will force people to run balanced builds instead of risk losing 1/3rd of their games to counter builds instead.

When most professions haven’t even explored the full usage of all their trait lines, there’s plenty of scope for innovation that will only occur in 1v1s. This is because a team fight hides your weaknesses and allows you to get away with much more. No such luck in 1v1s.

You need to explain what you mean by “1v1 can’t be balanced”. What exactly are you asserting? That some builds will always dominate every other build?

That’s not true. But since I don’t really know what you mean by that, perhaps you’d care to explain?

People have been 1v1’ing for months now without bothering about this mystical “balance”. It’s never stopped them.

daydream.2938:

bhagwad.4281:

daydream.2938:

1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.

No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.

If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.

But most esports games, are teamsports games.

If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.

I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.

IF you balance for 1on1 , IF. It cant be done. Never has been done successfully ever, in the history of any mmo EVER. its a pipe dream. You might as well ask them to allow us to play on pluto.

well if we could play on pluto that would be cool. Ya, it would be cool. But it cant be done.

Additionally, in a team environment people will find ways to min/max sacrificing 1vs1 power for team utility. So EVEN if you could achieve 1vs1 balance -which you cant- people still wound min/max with abilities in ways that would make them better at teamfights and worse at 1on1.

I don’t agree with you that it can’t be done. Unless you show proof that this is the case, it’s just an assertion you make. And what does it mean “you can’t balance 1v1” anyway? Are you saying there will always be a dominant class that can’t be beaten? That’s not true. There is a counter for every build in existence. Even eles and guardians.

So what can I say? I have to disagree with you that 1v1 cannot be balanced.

As for sacrificing 1v1 utility for team use…what’s the problem? Let them.

maddoctor.2738:

daydream.2938:

Hotjoins have a prevelance of thiefs and mesmers but not tournies. Hotjoin is annoying, but not competitive, try that vs a real team and you would get destroyed.

I played 11 Tournament games today, then got sick and stopped. In every single one of them I fought teams of 3+ Mesmers, some with 5 Mesmers too. I could care less what happens at the top of the leaderboards, I care about my own game, at my low rating, that gets ruined by only playing against Thieves in hotjoin and Mesmers in tournaments.

Agreed. It’s absurd how some people say “Oh, but at the top levels…” etc etc. Why should the majority of people give a flying kitten about what happens with 1% of the play? If there’s a problem affecting a vast majority of games, then it is a real problem!

daydream.2938:

1vs1 balance is less attainable than team balance, therefore 1vs1 ladder would mean even less.

No game, with the sort of skill diversity you find in an mmo can balance properly for 1on1. Heck even games like dota 2, league of legends, etc, are not balanced for 1vs1.

If you don’t like to co operate with other s, that’s fine, they should introduce a solo q. But it would still be 5vs5 conquest. If you really want 1on1, then maybe a fps or something is right for you.

But most esports games, are teamsports games.

If you balance for 1v1, 5v5 is automatically balanced. But in any case, a class should be able to spec either for dueling or teamwork. That’s what traits are for after all. No class is slotted into just one role.

I think dueling mode would be the best thing to happen for PvP. You’ll have people really wracking their heads trying to use innovative trait line combos for countering the current “meta”.