Guild Wars 2

I play a phantasm mesmer myself and have just touched r40. And I have to admit…it’s definitely a bit OP.

Those who say “Oh it’s only great in 1v1s” don’t realize that for some people, losing 1v1 matters more to them than losing the match. It’s humiliating – especially when you feel it was because of the build and not due to skill. You don’t feel bad if you lose the match because it’s a team effort. Being beaten 1v1 is all on you. Your fault entirely.

As a phantasm mesmer, my only trouble comes from another phantasm mesmer (and if I’m not careful, a shatter mes). In these fights it’s all about who gets the drop on whom. I try and open with my ranged stun and whoever manages to pull out the first two phantasms on the right mesmer is essentially the winner.

There is literally no build I have met that can withstand a phant mesmer. No thief, no necro, no guardian, warrior, or ele. There might be one I haven’t met or no one has discovered yet though…

But to the main point – I don’t think it’s fair that any one build should ever completely dominate almost every other. Regardless of what you may think, 1v1 matters. It matters to the player experiencing it. Far more than mere match winning/losing.

Btw, this build is also awesome for farming rank points in hotjoins. When I tPvP I prefer pyro’s immortal build. Though if there are already a lot of bunkers, then the phant mesmer is perfect for huge dps and downing the enemy’s bunkers.

phys.7689:

EvilSardine.9635:

Siphaed.9235:

If this ever happens on my server’s match up, I’m going to find my way over, and mist-form STOMP any and all participants.

Nah, you won’t. The person would get revived immediately and you would be instantly murdered by everyone else.

Go take a breather. This is just a game. There’s no need to be so upset about it.

haha now this sparking an actual war would be amusing to me. WvW zerg versus the duelists association, who would win? hmmm

Is there any doubt who would win?

I remember fighting you guys. I was the mesmer whose illusionary sword attack did 23k damage . Phantasm build though, not shatter as you said.

I also recognized Nemesis though I didn’t expect him to play the minion build!

Incurafy.6329:

KillingFrenzy.7315:

exactly lets hear it from a dev and not a thief

Honestly, with your kittenty attitude I hope that no dev responds to you and this thread dies a horrible death (and devs don’t reply to threads in the thief forum anyway).

It’s not a bug, it has been like that since beta, it’s an intended aspect of stealth and unless they decide to change it to reward more counterplay it’s never going to change.

Calling it a bug and then acting like all Thieves are going to cry that it should stay despite already being told that I agree with you that it should be changed is just plain stupid.

That’s not true. Most thieves do think it should stay. Here’s proof:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block-1/first

Hotjoins are the only avenue for solo players to enjoy pvp content. If you want to coordinate and form a team, please play a tournament.

It’s about time people realized that there are those of us who sometimes don’t want to play in a team. We’re just out to have a good time by ourselves and maybe make some friends along the way.

It’s so absurd to be in a hotjoin team and hear someone say “Mansion safe”. Dude. No one cares! We don’t play hotjoin to win the match!

I faced you and a full team of necros once in a tPvP match with a phantasm mesmer. You were using a bunch of minions instead of your usual build in the tPvP footage you showed. Which build is that?

The recent changes with custom arenas now allow people to choose which team they get to be in. This allows groups of people to be in the same team and coordinate.

Today I was playing in hotjoin and I noticed the opposing team members all had the same guild tag and they were playing it like a tPvP match. Needless to say they always beat the poor team on the other end and it was pretty obvious they were calling for help etc. As a result they got huge scores and won matches with insane margins. Fighting them was no fun since someone would always come and make it a 2v1 or 3v1.

I got tired of this. I figured they were always red so I chose to join the red team next time and jumped on the gravy train. One of their guys obviously got left out but why should I care?

This attitude is spoiling hotjoin where you’re supposed to be able to happily solo in the knowledge that others are doing the same. It was the ultimate “solo queue”. Even if everyone in a party joined a server there was guarantee that they would be in the same team. This is how it should be.

I request the developers to remove the ability to select which team you can join in public custom arenas. By coordinating, they’re spoiling the fun of hotjoin – something that has been accessible to us right from the start.

Meridian.8730:

a single 3-6k shot every 4-5 seconds does not cut it

….

I’m speechless.

Kajiri.8215:

Poison is a status effect given by the field. It does not directly deal any damage and would not break stealth/invuln.

Ah that way. Yeah that’d be fair. But like I’d mentioned before, SR would probably be the only skill that would need to be reworked for its insanely large AOE effects.

Taobella.6597:

this idea is silly take 4 thief run around with shadow refuge aoeing them 12 seconds of invulnerability well they just shoot posion field on a hole zerg. there nothing you can do about it. atlest with a stealth in theif you can make a logical guess to where he going if you guess right the thief auto dead or has to run away both being a win for you.

What? The idea is you’re not allowed to damage while you’re invulnerable.

When I want to join a 5v5, I can’t tell if there are any available player slots. That 13/20 could be 4v5 and 4 spectators or 3v3 and 7 spectators or 5v5 and 3 spectators.

It’s frustrating to go to a match only to see there’s no space for me to join in and have to exit and play the guessing game all over again.

Brutalistik.6473:

I’m sure a lot of computers or keyboards were broken cause of this. I’m not a fan of 1 vs 1 either especially against professions like mesmers or those that can give constant conditions. Playing as a healing bunker warrior protecting a node against those odds is like sleeping with the grim reaper at motel 6.

Actually I enjoy 1v1s. It’s just that I feel that every class should be able to spec a viable 1v1 build if they want. I’m ok with a particular build being team based and a particular build being 1v1 based.

But to slot an entire class and say “it’s only good for team or 1v1” is I think bull. Like people say that warriors are great in teams. Or thieves are only good for 1v1s. I think that’s a problem.

Both warriors and thieves should be able to spec themselves to be team players or 1v1 players as their tastes dictate. You shouldn’t be able to say “Well you’re a warrior. Obviously you lost to that mesmer. What do you expect?”

Ruggan.4102:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Invulnerability is simply a condition that makes it so you take no damage at all while it is in effect. Stealth does not do that… point of fact is, stealth is the mechanism by which most of a thief’s high end damage is done such as Back-Stab. It is also a mechanism by which a thief gains mobility… Infiltrators strike ect. If you were to give Invulnerability the same limitations such as ends on attack… then you are simply creating a means of escape for the thief rather than a combat/defensive ability. Say invulnerability lasted 3 seconds or until a thief attacks… in order to remain invulnerable, the thief needs to give up ALL attack mechanisms and gains no bonus from doing so… with stealth, the thief loses stealth on attack but there is the chance that the stealth will increase their damage output. You may think, ok then what is the real difference. Take retaliation… when a guardian puts up this boon, a smart attacker will stop attacking. The guardian gains a form of damage mitigation. However, the ability still has the potential to be a damage dealer because if the guardian is attacked, the attacker takes damage. So you see, it is two sided: combat/defense. On invulnerability… some classes that have it have things like reflection as the secondary portion of it or inflict chill ect… so it to, for those classes is combat/defensive. If you make invulnerability for a thief with the same limitations as stealth has currently… then it becomes pure defense and destroys the damage output of the thief… in short the thief becomes better at running away….

Those are good points. I created this thought experiment only because the most common response to those commenting on stealth is that it’s a thief’s only defense and form of damage mitigation since they don’t have boons or high health.

So I thought ok, let’s give them the ultimate defense in the game and see what happens!

I guess it must be all the explosions, but when fighting an egineer, my response time gets shot to hell. The entire video becomes jerky as if in slow motion.

It happens only in these scenarios and nowhere else. Is there a specific graphics settings I can use to alleviate this. Preferably without spoiling the entire graphics quality of the rest of the stuff?

If necessary I can live with it. It’s not that bad. But it can be a pita.

When some people defend a few builds by saying “Oh, it’s only good for 1v1”, they’re missing the main point – which is that from an emotional point of view, losing a 1v1 is far more important than losing the match.

When you lose a match, the blame is spread out across the team. The bigger the team, the lesser you feel personally responsible for what went wrong. But in a 1v1…it’s all you. No excuses. Plus it’s personal. You were beaten by a single identifiable person. Not a team.

Which is why when a person does lose a 1v1, they feel bad if it seems it was not because of skill levels, but because of the build.

Not to mention that in 5v5 hotjoins, you can get far more rank points with a good 1v1 build as opposed to a support build.

I say this as a phantasm mesmer which is acknowledged to be one of the most powerful 1v1 builds in GW 2 today.

This is why we must take 1v1 builds seriously also.

PopeUrban.2578:

bhagwad.4281:

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

Okay, how about this. I’ll trade all of my “grants stealth” for all of your “creates clone”

Deal?

Build diversity!

Deal. But I get to keep my phantasms. You can have the clones.

Bones.5762:

Lepew.7890:

My theory is an Anet guy was playing a flamethrower engineer, and got burnt to a crisp on retaliation.

False! if they even played the engi they would show it more love, but its prolly the least liked professions in terms of patch notes after mesmers

They must be playing thieves then. They absolutely commit suicide off my 2.8k armor + 24k hp with retal!

Aleth.9630:

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

Yeah, Blinding Powder = cancel-able Mist Form on half the cooldown. Or pop “stealth” anytime on low health and walk around rezzing allies/stomping enemies until your heal is back up. Sounds balanced, right?

bhagwad.4281:

So far though, two responses from non thieves. And both would prefer fighting invuln opponents over stealth. Not counting myself of course.

Any other non thieves would like to weigh in?

Thing is, add “non thieves, who know thieves” to that part. People who don’t know them and their playstyles don’t really have the knowledge to suggest changes.

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

Yeah, pop SR on 3 downed allies, rez all of them safely while all of you are invulnerable for the desired duration. Shadow Refuge would totally be balanced too, right?

I’ve already mentioned that SR would probably be the only skill that may need to be reworked – for rezzing etc.

You say non thieves who have experience. Well, I have plenty of xp in both tPvP and hotjoin. I’m just about r40 now and I can absolutely destroy any thief build with my phantasms no problem.

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

Dasorine.1964:

the thieves that prefer stealthing over invulnerability are those that don’t want the class dumbed down and made ridiculously OP, those that are going with the invuln suggestion are mostly just trolling the troll thread.

The fact that you think being able to see them will make a blind bit of difference while they are invulnerable is just funny, sure you can dodge an attack slightly better (even tho some people already can dodge those attacks) doesn’t change the fact that you can’t do anything to them if they don’t want to, unlike now where if you actually put a modicum of thought into it instead of complaining about being ganked by people sitting around an empty path for the entire match or people that came around a corner while you where looking you’d know that you’d be able to shut down a large portion of the low tier thief population… but hey ho

If you want thieves to be actually overpowered and then complain even more when you realize that you still can’t stop em then go ahead keep making posts like this where the only non thieves that will really respond are only here to complain as well.

Information is power. Giving up the ability to damage in exchange for knowledge of whereabouts is a fair trade. Actually it’s more than fair. If you ask for stuff in addition to being undamageable…well then I don’t know what more to say.

This is why I only run builds guaranteed to take down thieves. As a mesmer, I either use phantasms which eat them alive as soon as they come out of stealth, or I use retaliation with 2.8k armor and 25k health. They can’t do anything without dying themselves.

But I think it sucks that people are forced to use certain builds specifically to counter thieves. I have a lvl 80 necro that I haven’t yet used in WvW for this purpose. Unless there is a sure way to obtain counterplay to stealth, I’ll just be using my mesmer to punish those thieves who think I’m going to be an easy kill.

And even then I can’t stop them from running away.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

bhagwad.4281:

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

On demand invulnerability for 3s sounds good to me but you’ll need to make some buffs in exchange for some of the other advantages that stealth gives us.

For example, you’ll need to buff backstab – because people will never let you backstab if they know where you are. Executing that skill relies entirely on my opponent not knowing my location. It will have to be reworked so frontstab gave as much damage as backstab. Fair exchange perhaps still disadvantaging the thief.

There must also be no visual or boon indicators that I am invulnerable. Enemy players only find out I am invulnerable when they “Invulnerable” appearing on their screen. That way players can’t save their dodges for when we are invulnerable and they can’t save their burst damage for the second our invulnerability turns off. They’ll just have to guess when it is gone.

I am assuming this swap from stealth to invulnerability would include buffs to heavy armour (like a guardian) and/or higher base vitality (like a ranger). Given we are primarily a very squishy melee class that avoids all damage via heavy use of stealth – it only seems fair that our lack of stealth is compensated for with increased survivability (how does heavy armour and 13k hp sound?).

I also assume Invulnerable buff would de-target us like Stealth so that the player has to re-target when Invulnerable finishes. i.e., ranger can’t just select us and pew-pew auto attack.. they have to re-target and then trigger the pew pew. Costing them time to reaquire us as a target.

Heartseeker out of black powder will have to make me invulnerable (otherwise you destroy the entire Dagger/Pistol meta). So I assume the Invulnerable can chain like I can with stealth also. So I can be perma invulnerable except for the 3 second ‘Revealed’ debuff following my front/backstab attack on someone.

If you’re happy to give us those extra things then I’ll give it a go.

I am betting my guildies would love 10 seconds of being invulnerable after leaving my refuge to initiate a fight.

bhagwad.4281:

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You’d probably die even easier given most times you go to hit a thief it’ll say “Invulnerable” but at least you can see them killing you.

Umm…no. The fact that you require all of these changes in addition to being invulnerable is precisely my point.

Currently many thieves prefer stealthing to invulnerability. And that to me illustrates the heart of the problem.

Zikory.6871:

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

An invincible army that can’t do damage and can’t cap. Bring it on and watch as your teammates curse you for losing the cap.

Olba.5376:

Lol, changing all the skills and traits that we have which currently relate to stealth to be about invulnerability would be hilarious:

• Hide in Shadows: Gain Invulnerable, Regeneration (4s) and cure Bleed, Poison and Burn
• Shadow Refuge: Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and makes them invulnerable
• Hidden Killer:100% critical hit chance while invulnerable
• Meld with Shadows: Invulnerable skills last 1 second longer
• Hidden Assassin: Gain might for 15 seconds when you go into invulnerable
• Shadow Protector: When you make an ally invulnerable, they gain regeneration for 5 seconds
• Shadow’s Embrace: Remove one condition every 3 seconds while invulnerable
• Hidden Thief: Stealing grants you 2 seconds of invulnerable
• Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Regenerate health while invulnerable
• Fleet Shadow: Move 50% faster while invulnerable

Please tell me this is a big troll thread.

I’m actually dead serious. I would prefer to fight against an invulnerable thief as opposed to a stealthed one.

Based on non thief feedback this seems to be the case for almost everyone too.

I play a phantasm mesmer myself and am just within striking distance of r40. And I have to admit…it’s definitely a bit OP.

Those who say “Oh it’s only great in 1v1s” don’t realize that for some people, losing 1v1 matters more to them than losing the match. It’s humiliating – especially when you feel it was because of the build and not due to skill. You don’t feel bad if you lose the match because it’s a team effort. Being beaten 1v1 is all on you. Your fault entirely.

As a phantasm mesmer, my only trouble comes from another phantasm mesmer (and if I’m not careful, a shatter mes). In these fights it’s all about who gets the drop on whom. I try and open with my ranged stun and whoever manages to pull out the first two phantasms on the right mesmer is essentially the winner.

There is literally no build I have met that can withstand a phant mesmer. No thief, no necro, no guardian, warrior, or ele. There might be one I haven’t met or no one has discovered yet though…

But the OP is wrong about having tons of condi removal. It’s all about not letting those conditions get onto you in the first place. Let your clones face the heat!

But to the main point – I don’t think it’s fair that any one build should ever completely dominate almost every other. Regardless of what you may think, 1v1 matters. It matters to the player experiencing it. Far more than mere match winning/losing.

Btw, this build is also awesome for farming rank points in hotjoins. When I tPvP I prefer pyro’s immortal build. Though if there are already a lot of bunkers, then the phant mesmer is perfect for huge dps and downing the enemy’s bunkers.

Kajiri.8215:

This would be horribly OP when you consider that stealth does not break channeled moves or prevent aoes or mitigate any well placed moves at all.

This would negate any channelled move, allow a thief that is out of dodges to avoid any attack headed their way, and shadow refuge would get them to full health no matter what. No more ‘trying’ to hit them in or knock them out of refuge – don’t bother. Just run away and let them have their 100% guaranteed fight reset.

Out of all the skills I admit that shadow refuge is the only one that will need to be reworked. Otherwise as a non thief I’m willing to give up the chancy damage for the 100% knowledge of exactly where the thief is.

Some custom arenas specify a team size of “5”. How then can there be 17/20 or 18/20 players in it? Two teams should have a grand total of just 10 players in all.

If any lucky person is reading this who has the ability to create custom arenas, this is a request to create a map rotation without Capricorn.

I’m sure you’ll get tons of people willing to participate

lettucemode.3789:

bhagwad.4281:

Are you high? We’ve been playing for a one time payment all this while (as expected and as we did in GW1). It’s absurd to think that Anet will suddenly reverse its policy and start charging for content that we’ve been enjoying all this while.

They may be a company but what you’re suggesting is called bait and switch.

dreztina.4820:

So where are the fees for playing pve? Where is the dungeon that you have to pay gems to get initial access to and then pay every month to continue going in?

This is just another case of anet treating their pvpers like second class citizens by charging them for basic features while pve’ers actually enjoy their buy to play game. Anet, and other game devs, are going to continue treating pvpers like they are worth less than pve’ers until pvpers like you stop making it easy for them.

You are not paying for PvP content! You are paying for the ability to CREATE the PvP content. Playing on anyone’s arena is still free. Playing tournaments is still free. Where are you guys getting this idea that PvP now costs money?

They added a new feature. This new feature costs money to access, and is a specialty item. Playing the game exactly as you have been playing it up to this point still costs 0 extra dollars. What is the problem here?

Basically you’re saying that the ability to play PvP depends on the largesse of other players who are paying for it.

dreztina.4820:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Facts:

• MMOs cost tons of money to upkeep
• Most MMOs ameliorate those costs with subscription fees
• GW2 doesn’t have a subscription fee
• GW2 needs to make money to keep themselves afloat as a company and keep the servers running
• GW2 uses microtransactions to ameliorate those costs

There is nothing greedy here. Custom arenas are not required for you to enjoy the game, and if they are because you can’t live without them for whatever reason, well just join someone else’s! Playing in them is free, it’s hosting your own that costs gems. Seriously, this is a perfectly legitimate setup ANet has going on, and there’s nothing shady or greed-driven about it.

Consider the alternative: you play another MMO that has a subscription fee but free custom arenas. Great, you and every one of your friends pay $15 a month to play, and you get to play with each other in your arenas for free. Let’s say you have 5 friends. That means in one month, the company has made $75 from you and your friends playing in a custom arena. It sure as hell won’t cost you $75 to open and maintain that same custom arena on GW2 for a month, so in the end you’re paying less. What’s the complaint, again?

So where are the fees for playing pve? Where is the dungeon that you have to pay gems to get initial access to and then pay every month to continue going in?

This is just another case of anet treating their pvpers like second class citizens by charging them for basic features while pve’ers actually enjoy their buy to play game. Anet, and other game devs, are going to continue treating pvpers like they are worth less than pve’ers until pvpers like you stop making it easy for them.

My complaint (as should be obvious) is that I shouldn’t have to spend money after buying the game. Just as promised and as implemented in GW1.

lordkrall.7241:

GoldenKnightTim.4390:

Not enough gold.

Then get gold and accept that ArenaNet is a company and need to make money in order to survive.

Are you high? We’ve been playing for a one time payment all this while (as expected and as we did in GW1). It’s absurd to think that Anet will suddenly reverse its policy and start charging for content that we’ve been enjoying all this while.

They may be a company but what you’re suggesting is called bait and switch.

ahuba.6430:

bhagwad.4281:

When I try and play, one of two things happen:

1. I get a “Server is full” message even though they’re obviously not full
2. I can only spectate. Even when I click the “Join” cross swords icon it just takes me to spectator mode.

Seriously Anet, did you test this at all?

can you stop acting like a brat? and stop posting crapy threads? releasing stuff into live version can bring up new problems (like the spirit watch issue) that are fixed promptly. what about you but your big man pants on and start using a little patience?

Lol – forgive me for expecting to play a game after a patch.

Excuuuuuse me! I hereby forfeit my right to complain when something isn’t working.

When I try and play, one of two things happen:

1. I get a “Server is full” message even though they’re obviously not full
2. I can only spectate. Even when I click the “Join” cross swords icon it just takes me to spectator mode.

Seriously Anet, did you test this at all?

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens.

In any case, still waiting for more non thief input.

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Acaelus.2138:

Never gonna happen although it is a very ‘entertaining’ idea. Would have to rework most if not all traits to start and you think thieves get hate now? QQstealth mantra would pale in comparison if this happened. There would be such an uproar- until they replaced dagger and sword with harp. Then I could see this happening.

I’d like to see a few more non thieves chip in to ask them how they would react this vis a vis stealth. So far, they’ve said they would prefer it.

I may be jumping the gun here but all the arenas are now 20 players.

I can’t believe this. Here I was pushing for reducing the zergfest that is 8v8, and what do they do? Go and actually increase the number? What the hell?

Please tell me I’m mistaken or jumping to conclusions here…

Dasorine.1964:

Build full GC, walk around invulnerable when possible and kill people like Bhagwad easily with absolutely no way to counter them (in fact removing many counters)

Sure they can see you but theres nothing they can do about you unlike stealth where they can’t see you once you enter it but they can do lots to stop you.

Of course people like Bhagwad would have you believe thieves are permanently stealthed and invincible while stealthed already so..

Lol – now you’re just making stuff up. I never said that stealthed thieves were invincible. You made that pretty leap all on your own.

So far though, two responses from non thieves. And both would prefer fighting invuln opponents over stealth. Not counting myself of course.

Any other non thieves would like to weigh in?

DeceiverX.8361:

bhagwad.4281:

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

How would it be different? Invul would be lost on attack just like stealth so the same rules would apply.

Because then there would be no such thing as a GC thief and everyone would play bunker or some kind of tank offshoot while maximizing their invul duration to just troll around the field and lure people into traps. Stealth is designed to throw people off and allow the class to be slippery if they’re any good, otherwise they just die to AoE damage or lose in a duel to someone who knows how thieves play and understands what their next move would/should be.

The change would just turn them into predictable on/off switches constantly going form full tank to squish with no real escape/disruption mechanic. You might as well just play a GS warrior.

So if you’re a thief would you be more effective or less effective with this change?

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

How would it be different? Invul would be lost on attack just like stealth so the same rules would apply.

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

People often say WvW is “war”. No it isn’t! There are no consequences for “losing” and no real rewards for winning. Hence I propose that:

Any deaths in WvW means that player “dies” for that week. They can reenter on WvW server reset.

Implement that, and then we’ll talk about “war”!

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

bhagwad.4281:

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

Get over yourself. Any tactful person, regardless of profession, will strike first if given the chance. Thieves just do it better. It’s in the nature of archetype.

Lol. Then don’t complain when you pay the price for being a prick. If it’s the “archetype”, then the consequences of being that archetype are ridicule and scorn.

Get over it!

My only complaint that I have is you are shoehorning every thief player into this false absolution of yours. I dont like being called a prick. Especially when all I’m trying to do is be useful to my server in wvw, with whatever limited methods and tools are available to me.

Look you can’t deny that being sneaky and trying to gank someone with an easy win and running away when things don’t work out is cheap. You may say “I’m only trying to help my server” or “it’s the archetype”. But the fact is that those techniques won’t earn you respect.

Why do you care? Do what yo do and suck up the humiliation of people dancing over your dead body or laughing. That’s what happens to the archetype. Part of the territory as they say no?

If you want respect, then show up in front of people where they can see you, do a “/bow”, and then fight and stealth all you want. Then no one will humiliate you if you lose.

But act cheesy and you get what you deserve. Where is the confusion in all this?

Tempest Darqmane.4862:

Get over yourself. Any tactful person, regardless of profession, will strike first if given the chance. Thieves just do it better. It’s in the nature of archetype.

Lol. Then don’t complain when you pay the price for being a prick. If it’s the “archetype”, then the consequences of being that archetype are ridicule and scorn.

Get over it!

When a thief hides behind an obstacle and tries to insagib you out of stealth, they will obviously be laughed at when they fail. They deserve it.

I remember I was overlooking the supply camp next to the jumping puzzle and I get hit by this thief out of nowhere. I threw him off the cliff to his (oh so satisfying) death.

Other classes deserve respect when you beat them. They deserve a “/bow” for a good fight. No one has ever bowed to a thief that tried to gank them in a sneaky manner.

Go figure.

MrForz.1953:

Some people don’t take kindly to Thieves. Especially since most of people tend to roll a Thief FOR roaming the WvW grounds due to the low risk and high reward, the player knows that, and the opponents do know that aswell.

The thing is… well, the whole concept stinks of the cheesy and generic assassin everyone would want to play, most of them are arrogant, they will taunt, they will consider that all the other classes are ‘cattle’ and act like their level of skill is far beyond the target he’s going to engage.

For obvious reasons, there are very few chances that a Thief will be taken down unless very bad, if a Thief with the above paragraph’s description don’t even know how my Engineer works and wastes his Basilisk Venom + Mug + CnD on my Gear Shield just to get literally exploded five second later, I will laugh at him, yes. Because even if the class has better tools than most, you still require a little knowledge.

(Plus they all dress in the same manner with their whole Assassin’s Creed wet fantasy)

^^This.

Will.9785:

See topic. Getting sick of fighting guardians with their block up constantly. I fought one today and I swear I was just swinging on him for 10-15 seconds non-stop w/ my auto-attack while he just stood there basically ignoring me.

So how do we deal w/ them?

People talk about stealth like its overpowered but it is nothing compared to this nonsense.

Play a guardian and you’ll know which skills cause a block, for how long, and what their cooldowns are. Then just time your bursts accordingly.

If thieves are meant to be burst, then guardians are supposed to be the opposite. Working as intended.

I’ve complained about this before: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/This-happens-when-you-Don-t-Communicate/first#post1836089

There are people who think that you can win a match with no strategy and that people should miraculously “understand their roles” without discussing it.

They spoil it for the rest of us who are not arrogant enough to think we can win on cruise control.

sorrow.2364:

The whole thing is:
if you run scissor to beat paper and you lose to rock, that doesn’t mean that scissor has to be nerfed, neither that paper must be buffed.
Running scissor means you are accepting the risk to meet rock and lose against, while being effective against paper.
Everyone, then, will run neither scissor, neither rock, neither paper. Just an hybrid to be effective against everything.

Exactly. A true “rock paper scissors” outcome is impossible to create in a game with this kind of complexity.