Guild Wars 2

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Backstab is available only from stealth. How do you gain stealth ?

I see…so if CnD merely gave you access to BS without the stealth you’ll be completely ok with that?

Ahem..ahem.

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

BS cost 4-9 init paid via CnD or BP+NS, or a healing on a 30 sec CD, or a utility on a 45+sec CD.

It also has an artificial CD of 4 secs via reveal debuff.

The CnD cost is for stealth which is a very good benefit entirely. You can’t call the 4 secs as a CD because it’s not triggered whenever the skill is used. In fact, that is precisely the point of this thread in the first place!

Daendur.2357:

The whole thief class doesn’t have cooldowns on skills… why tu put cooldown to backstab ? just because it deals more damage ? we already said that that damage is there because of a state (stealth) and position requirement.
So no, I wouldn’t agree with a 2 sec cd on bs.
tbh if you, as a mesmer, die by a thief, there’s something wrong with you, not with BS nor stealth.

Backstab uses initiative just like every other thief skill? As far as I know that’s not the case. Am I wrong?

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

Not really.

You’re asking for the wrong type of nerf…

Do you have a problem with the damage or do you have a problem with being able to spam an autoattack?

I’m sure you’ll agree that the two cannot go together. Either autoattack and have low damage, or have a skill that does a lot more and has a CD (or at least has some kind of opportunity cost. AFAIK BS doesn’t even use any initiative…)

Like I said, my initial post was about unstealthing with a botched BS. But I don’t mind a cooldown period or the thief’s skills being replaced by the regular skill set.

Either would address the issue.

Sifu.6527:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

I will conced to and promote your position if you can name one autoattack (#1) that currently has a cooldown.

This is most surprising. You’re comparing an autoattack to a skill that does some of the highest damage in the game?

Congratulations sir. I believe you have proved your point convincingly

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Let me replace “back stab” will killshot and see how it sounds:

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can killshot to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can killshot again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

Doesn’t work no? I mean even killshot being blocked has a CD. If you’re ok with steal skills having CDs, then we’ve found our solution!

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

I am talking purely in terms of balance. What is considered skillful or unskillful is irrelevant here. As of right now, I can back stab to use up your block or to get rid of blindness on myself and then I can back stab again for damage. What is game breaking about that? It does not deserve the nerf you’re suggesting unless it makes my damage out put so great that it’s over powered.

I find it interesting that you call giving BS a small cooldown as a “nerf”. There are many other skills in the game that deal far less damage that BS that have a cooldown and you feel that a skill that can do anywhere between 3-14k damage having a cooldown is a horrible thing?

Perhaps we have different understandings of what “balance” means.

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

When you read “Block” you know the thief is there and he backstabbed you.
You blocked his backstab, so you succesfully used a skill to counter another skill.
Now he is goin to backstab you again, so you have to use another skill to counter it, e.g. you can dodge.

You are suggesting to be able to counter multiple skills with 1 skill and that’s unreasonable because for that purpose there are skills like Shield Stance (and they have cooldowns)

Using a backstab twice in succession counts as “multiple skills”? I don’t think the terminology will stand that strain. It’s the same skill. If BS was a regular skill it would have a cooldown…just like every other. Since it doesn’t, and since it’s from stealth, and since it causes damage, obviously something needs to be changed.

Will you be ok with a 2 second CD for backstab (or any other stealth skill)?

Barock.7183:

So in other words: having 1 block on your character means —-> immune to thief?

Immune to one particular attack in a certain interval. Last I saw, thieves can repeat their maneuver every 3 seconds. You can’t seriously complain about this can you?

You make it sound as if the thief is a complete failure as a class if they can’t land that one backstab. I don’t even play a thief and even I can tell you that’s not true.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

Back stab once using up your single block skill and then stabbing again to damage you.

Ok…and your point is what? That I use a skill to counter you and then you get to use the same skill immediately again whereas mine goes to cooldown.

I don’t understand – are you supporting this, defending this, or saying you don’t care?

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

I has a 30 second cooldown. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what you were trying to say…

That nothing requires skill … just press 1 button. it’s easy, a monkey can do that.
if you don’t consider positioning and timing I don’t consider cooldowns…

btw it has been stated that there are multiple options to avoid BS, not only a 30s cooldown skill.

A mesmer has a skill saying “block next attack” and lasts for two seconds. Now since stealth lasts for 4 secs, it takes anticipation and timing to use those two seconds at the correct moment. But there have been times when I use it, it works, and I still get hit immediately after that.

So I used skill, timing, I saved up my CD for a chance to use it…and what benefit do I get? Nothing.

Would you tolerate this for any other skill in the game? Come on…I’m not being unreasonable here

As for the 30 second cooldown, it’s useless as soon as the thief stealths again 3 secs later. So it’s not as if this is a hard counter to a BS. Surely you’re not complaining about it?

ninja.4139:

Why shouldn’t I be able to break your block?

I’m sorry, but what exactly are you suggesting? You want to break my block? Meaning what?

ninja.4139:

Even the best thieves don’t land every single back stab on the first try.

Should they be guaranteed that it lands? If the opponent generates a counter, I think we all agree that it shouldn’t land no?

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated.

And Shield Stance last 3seconds… also block can be repeated… so ?

I has a 30 second cooldown. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what you were trying to say…

Dasorine.1964:

great another person who seems the think the moment a thief goes into stealth they totally disappear and become invulnerable…

…huh?

This is not about damaging the thief, but negating damage from them. In fact, my post makes that abundantly clear.

Wait…did you read the post at all?

Daendur.2357:

if BS is a basic maneuver, why block it should be something requiring skill ?
You just have to press 1 button to block… Pressing 1 button is a basic maneuver

It is. But it doesn’t work obviously since BS can just be repeated. I’m totally ok with BS having a cooldown. Even a two second CD – lesser than a warrior’s adrenaline skill when blocked.

Shemsu.8721:

Well I guess we can go back and forth all day arguing. However considering a warriors missed burst skill doesnt use up adrenaline, and a thieves missed stealth skill doesnt use up stealth, these things seem intended. I’m sorry you feel the need to counter skills in an ineffective manner when there are easier no cd mechanics in place for all classes to deal with them.
movement, turn around, LOS and finally L2P
/end

So you support the idea of a stealth skill like BS having a CD just like a warrior’s adrenaline skill?

Good. I’m fine with that too.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

100b, pistol whip and blurred frenzy are all counterable by the fact that you can see them coming. You don’t have to guess or get lucky. When that “one hit” is from stealth and deals massive damage, then it’s not unreasonable to ask that it not be spammable.

You don’t see warriors complaining that kill shot can be blocked and go to CD now do you? Because it’s not reasonable to expect otherwise.

All of those have added effects that make them useful though, and Kill shot has the advantage of being ranged. All backstab does is deal damage, and only if it hits the opponent’s back. And again, backstab doesn’t deal that much damage. Death blossom deals more damage if the bleeds aren’t removed in a timely fashion and you can deal almost as much just from a full auto-attack combo.

My main point is about any stealth attack not just backstab. In any case, if you say that kill shot has the advantage of being ranged, I say BS has the advantage of the thief being in stealth! As an opponent, I’ll take the former over the latter any day. As would anyone else I’m sure.

Shemsu.8721:

Backstab is now a basic maneuver? 1 of 2 attacks in the entire game that REQUIRE a pre existing buff (stealth) to be achieved first, then be in melee range AND then be behind your enemy? When warriors have such position requirements to achieve the 23k killshot or HB i might agree with you, as is though backstab and tac strike have the highest requirements to succeed of any melee skills.

For a D/D thief, BS is indeed something that should be a basic maneuver if they’re worth their salt. Given the easy access to stealth, you can’t pretend this is not an easy situation to achieve. Besides, your earlier post was not about countering backstab but countering CnD in the first place. Pressing a button is what I would call a basic maneuver.

Besides, I already mentioned this is not just about BS, but about any spammable stealth attack like Sneak Attack with the pistol.

Shemsu.8721:

Why would you waste a block or invuln cd on backstab? thats not outplaying someone thats wasting your skill which is a fail. BS can be avoided so easily by simple movement, even keyboard turning can cut the bs damage in half, yet you want to waste a block skill? and call that skill? Use the block skill on CnD then you’ve negated the damage from cnd and backstab, plus the vuln cond and the blindness that goes with it, AND stopped then from entering stealth and forcing them to waste HALF their init, with one block skill. THAT would be skill, what your doing is a fail

Many thieves themselves can’t see a CnD coming. I’d like to see someone who can reliably block it on demand. You’re just exaggerating for effect.

And this isn’t just about BS. It’s about any stealth skill. Like if I absorb sneak attack’s projectiles for a second, the thief is still out there free to try it again. Think of the larger principle of the matter.

This isn’t about a specific tactic. Whether I choose to blow a CD to negate backstab is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that many CDs don’t do the job because BS (and other stealth skills) are spammable with no consequences.

Besides your definition for what is “skillful” makes stealthing and BSing itself a joke. I shouldn’t have to demonstrate extraordinary skill levels to counter a basic maneuver that requires a pittance of skill in the first place.

Actually thanks for putting this in perspective. Your post shows the inherent imbalance of the mechanic since you’re demanding 10 times the skill level to counter something like a simple stealth + BS.

Grimwolf.7163:

bhagwad.4281:

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

Umm…yeah. If your opponent has the presence of mind to save a block skill till you stealth, then you were outplayed. I’m astonished that you seem to think you have a god given right to land a backstab regardless of counters the opponent throws up.

You should be saving the block skill for a heart seeker, a CnD, or a death blossom, and blocking is not the only counter and was never intended to be a hard counter to back stab. It’s already easy enough to stop a back stab with skills like Updraft and Illusionary Wave or just avoid it completely with blink, lightning flash, and other step skills.

Or you could just, you know, not leave your back open to them? That works for all professions.

A “block next attack” skill is a hard counter to any other single hit skill in the game. Why should BS (or any stealth skill) be any different? You can’t just wave it away and say “use something else!”. Why should I?

Or take a skill that gives you 2 secs of invulnerability that roots you to the ground. You save up for it to prevent a backstab, you see 4 or 5 “invulnerable” messages pop up but as soon as it’s over, you get hit. You saved and blew your CD for nothing with no benefit.

Landing a BS this way takes no skill. Weed out the spammers and make the thief play smartly by timing stealth and backstab when the opponent is vulnerable…like all the rest of us do. For example, I don’t MOA a guardian when he has aegis up. You can’t just spam skills and land them with no downside. Doesn’t work that way.

You’re arguing semantics. You can’t stop 100b, Rapid Fire, Pistol Whip, Blurred Frenzy etc with a “block next attack” effect. The fact that only one hit actually occurs means nothing.
At least with stealth attacks you’re fully capable of blocking the CnD, and stopping them from stealthing in the first place.

100b, pistol whip and blurred frenzy are all counterable by the fact that you can see them coming. You don’t have to guess or get lucky. When that “one hit” is from stealth and deals massive damage, then it’s not unreasonable to ask that it not be spammable.

You don’t see warriors complaining that kill shot can be blocked and go to CD now do you? Because it’s not reasonable to expect otherwise.

Dirty Dova.6490:

I disagree with invunerable and blocks those lasts about 3-4 seconds that is as long as a stealth not fair if the thief misses they should be killed for being mentally kitten Although if you evade it then you timed it right and did good. Not saying its hard to evade a backstab just should unstalth them

The thing is those defensive skills have long cooldowns whereas a thief can stealth very frequently. So even if one backstab is countered, another will be coming very soon. I’m not complaining about the frequency of stealth here though. Just that using a skill with a long CD to mitigate the damage of a single backstab is hardly gamebreaking and is quite a reasonable thing to expect.

Riko.9214:

As I mentioned before there are a lot of ways to avoid BS (may be too many, I didnt name all, there are still fear and different leaps and all classes can stealth also). On skilled player its almost impossible to place BS if only he aware that you are coming, so for the sake of balanse BS need to buffed not vise versa.

Oh yeah of course! “For the sake of balance” BS needs to be buffed!

Naturally. Just to you know…maintain balance and all

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

No class has all of these things at the same time. And yes – if you save up one of these to prevent a BS, that’s presence of mind and skill. The thief was outplayed and shouldn’t be allowed to land it again.

Believe it or not, using one skill to counter another (like BS) is a valid form of play.

btw you are countering BS and indeed you prevent BS to damage you (1 2 3 times … as long as you counter it) it shouldn’t have nothing to do with stealth.
It would be like blocking a Fierce Blow and also put in cooldown Backbreaker. Nonsense

Fine. I have no issues with BS having a CD. Or for it to be replaced with a normal skill set after one use. I just assume that would require a complete reworking of the entire stealth mechanic. If you find that a better solution though, I’m all for it.

I’m glad to see constructive suggestions come up to deal with this.

Riko.9214:

Well let’s see. ways to avoid backstab:
1) block longer than 2s (no skill required)
2) 2 dodges (no skill required)
3) aoe blind for more than 2s (no skill required)
4)invalnurabiliti for more than 2s (no skill required)
5) aoe knockback (almost no skill required)
6) 1 dodge + smart move (some skill required)
7) aoe cripple (skill required)

U might want to have buttom “defeat the opponent” with some cd and than call it outplay when you saved that cd for some fight, but it’s fortunately not the case.

No class has all of these things at the same time. And yes – if you save up one of these to prevent a BS, that’s presence of mind and skill. The thief was outplayed and shouldn’t be allowed to land it again.

Also, all these skills have cooldowns. Make them spammable like BS and I will have no problems, you can bet on that!

It’s also amusing that you recommend two dodges to counter a single one hit spammable skill. And two dodges is also no guarantee you won’t be backstabbed. But that’s another issue.

It’s interesting that you equate countering a BS with “defeat opponent”. Are you really that much of a one trick pony that if your stealth attack doesn’t land once you lose the fight? If so I imagine you have some bigger issues than an upcoming BS nerf. Good players will not be put down so easily. So…false analogy.

Believe it or not, using one skill to counter another (like BS) is a valid form of play.

ninja.4139:

bhagwad.4281:

Umm…yeah. If your opponent has the presence of mind to save a block skill till you stealth, then you were outplayed. I’m astonished that you seem to think you have a god given right to land a backstab regardless of counters the opponent throws up.

You should be saving the block skill for a heart seeker, a CnD, or a death blossom, and blocking is not the only counter and was never intended to be a hard counter to back stab. It’s already easy enough to stop a back stab with skills like Updraft and Illusionary Wave or just avoid it completely with blink, lightning flash, and other step skills.

Or you could just, you know, not leave your back open to them? That works for all professions.

A “block next attack” skill is a hard counter to any other single hit skill in the game. Why should BS (or any stealth skill) be any different? You can’t just wave it away and say “use something else!”. Why should I?

Or take a skill that gives you 2 secs of invulnerability that roots you to the ground. You save up for it to prevent a backstab, you see 4 or 5 “invulnerable” messages pop up but as soon as it’s over, you get hit. You saved and blew your CD for nothing with no benefit.

Landing a BS this way takes no skill. Weed out the spammers and make the thief play smartly by timing stealth and backstab when the opponent is vulnerable…like all the rest of us do. For example, I don’t MOA a guardian when he has aegis up. You can’t just spam skills and land them with no downside. Doesn’t work that way.

BobbyT.7192:

If I’m in stealth and my opponent throws up a block, what am I supposed to do, wait it out? Those blocks(aegis) last more then 3-4 seconbds, If blocked attacks revealed, there nothing I can do, this suggestion would actually break stealth, I don’t this this suggestion was well thought out imo.

Umm…yeah. If your opponent has the presence of mind to save a block skill till you stealth, then you were outplayed. I’m astonished that you seem to think you have a god given right to land a backstab regardless of counters the opponent throws up.

oZii.2864:

Kaon.7192:

oZii.2864:

Daecollo.9578:

Stealth is going to be removed if your unable to attack anymore, so if you miss your backstab, there is a good chance that your going to get reveal anyways now.

Pretty much this if you block/evade a backstab the thief is going to be exposed for 3 secs anyway unless he pops blinding powder to stay stealth. Then you know something is up but he blew one of his get out of jail cards to stay stealthed a bit longer to land a bs. Then he is probably going to either have to disengage then or go all out praying he can drop you with his next few attacks.

Sorry but I’m having trouble following your points.

The way the stealth attack mechanic works right now is, for as long as you remain in stealth, you can keep repeating the stealth attack indefinitely until you deal damage.

If your first stealth attack is blocked or evaded, a Thief can simply follow up with a second one in less than a quarter of a second, and a third one afterwards if the second one fails, rinse and repeat.

It’s completely delusional to consider this balanced, as it practically negates most forms of defensive action on the opponent’s side and allows for a practically unlimited amount of redo’s for the Thief if he misses his burst/control.

Being revealed might be a bit too heavy handed a way to handle this, but at the very least, stealth attacks should be limited to a single chance for each stealth duration.

My post was in regards to the change that if you attack or not you get revealed. Remember culling is also getting fixed this next patch and if it is indeed eliminated with the addition to the change in the way stealth works with attacking or not. It should pretty much hinder a thief alot more if they miss a backstab as long as the opponent isnt just standing there.

Culling gave an extra second or 2 of stealth basically to thieves if it is fixed a miss will be pretty big. Unless you get a good crit for 10k your looking at about 5-7k if your opponent is moving smartly then you might miss or hit them from the side or front for about 2-3k damage which isn’t bad damage at all unless your low hp full glass.

A thief can repeat the backstab over and over while in stealth but they have to hit from the back to even make it effective a front backstab for 2-3k isnt much at all.

If I have a skill that says “Block next incoming attack” and I save it up for when the thief stealths, I get a “blocked” message, the thief can still instantly hit me again with BS. Or if I throw up a protective bubble that absorbs projectiles for 1 second, the thief can use Sneak Attack multiple times till it hits.

The basic idea is that if I time a skill to protect me for a second or two, and the thief tries to land an attack and fails, I have countered the play and should be rewarded at the very least by the thief not being able to immediately repeat it!

I have sometimes seen “Invulnerable” pop up several times in quick succession as certain protective skills root me to the ground. That’s wrong. It should pop just once and the thief should either be revealed or at least have a cooldown for that particular skill.

Thank you so much! Got some very good ideas here. Did your youtube monetization work out? I saw some advertisements showing up on the videos so I hope you’re getting something for your efforts…

addikt.1270:

Or is it just that you feel you should be rewarded somehow for surviving an initial hit? Yeah. lets reward you for doing that. and actually ruin the whole build for a dd thief just because you managed to evade the initial backstab, and like i said, refuse to hit that one button.

Anyway, BS unblockable ftw.

But nevertheless backstab should be unblockable.

If by “rewarded” you mean being safe from that particular attack at least till the next time the thief stealths…then yes!

I’m concerned that you think being unable to spam BS “ruins” the build for a D/D thief. Don’t you want at least some skill to play?

addikt.1270:

Having a thief be revealed after he messed up is just a stupid ideea. Maybe you think this is more realistic, but tell me please, which other profession seems more realistic than the thief?
And in realistic terms it would be stupid that someone would “block” an attack coming from behind, a “miss”, in some cases, is an inappropriate term for actually being “too far away”. The only realistic way to evade a backstab is to actually luckily “evade” it, but the thief should be revealed.. just why? The gameplay is gimmicky enough.
Come to think of it.. backstab should get a buff.. not blockable. And people should hit that button that counters the burst, because everybody has one, rather than gambling with dodge rolls. But people actually think that would be a waste of one skill.. well.. die then..

It’s nothing to do with being “realistic”. It’s everything to do with being reasonable. If a BS is countered, it should not be repeatable.

Kaon.7192:

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t understand. You’re saying it’s ok for a thief to spam BS from stealth even when the opponent has taken the trouble/lucked out to avoid it once? Given that landing a single backstab for huge damage can easily determine the outcome of a fight, is it fair that a thief gets multiple chances to land it with no penalty?

Far from making it a “stupid skill”, it will promote skilled gameplay and weed out those thieves who don’t take the trouble to ensure that it lands by forcing the opponent to blow their CDs first. As it stands right now, spamming BS takes no skill and has no cost.

The damage is not so high to justify what you are asking.
A single backstab can’t determine the outcome of a fight, unless you are fighting upleveled undergeared characters.
Triple BS damage and your request will make sense.

When you also take into account the minimal interval you can have between successive backstabs, then some form of change is definitely justified.

I think a good compromise might be to only allow the very first auto-attack in stealth to activate the stealth attack. That way you have a single chance to land your backstab/daze and after that your 1 slot becomes your regular auto-attack, but you don’t get revealed until you actually do damage.

This sounds like a good solution as well.

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

I don’t understand. You’re saying it’s ok for a thief to spam BS from stealth even when the opponent has taken the trouble/lucked out to avoid it once? Given that landing a single backstab for huge damage can easily determine the outcome of a fight, is it fair that a thief gets multiple chances to land it with no penalty?

Far from making it a “stupid skill”, it will promote skilled gameplay and weed out those thieves who don’t take the trouble to ensure that it lands by forcing the opponent to blow their CDs first. As it stands right now, spamming BS takes no skill and has no cost.

The damage is not so high to justify what you are asking.
A single backstab can’t determine the outcome of a fight, unless you are fighting upleveled undergeared characters.
Triple BS damage and your request will make sense.

You can’t be serious right? I’ve seen a single BS in sPvP hit for 14k. If a backstab was evaded/blocked etc, it means the attack was countered. You shouldn’t get to do it again with no cost.

Daendur.2357:

bhagwad.4281:

Grimwolf.7163:

And then Backstab becomes the single worst ability in the entire game. Yay for balance, right?

Why worst ability? Huge damage comes with the opportunity cost of getting unstealthed. Surely you’re not suggesting there should be no opportunity cost whatsoever?

This change will promote skilled play instead of button spamming don’t you think?

BS already requires stealth and positionig to be effective, add the chance to be unstealthed on miss/block and it will become a stupid skill.
It will be ok if they double our auto attack dmg … so we won’t need BS anymore (as it will be useless)

I don’t understand. You’re saying it’s ok for a thief to spam BS from stealth even when the opponent has taken the trouble/lucked out to avoid it once? Given that landing a single backstab for huge damage can easily determine the outcome of a fight, is it fair that a thief gets multiple chances to land it with no penalty?

Far from making it a “stupid skill”, it will promote skilled gameplay and weed out those thieves who don’t take the trouble to ensure that it lands by forcing the opponent to blow their CDs first. As it stands right now, spamming BS takes no skill and has no cost.

Grimwolf.7163:

And then Backstab becomes the single worst ability in the entire game. Yay for balance, right?

Why worst ability? Huge damage comes with the opportunity cost of getting unstealthed. Surely you’re not suggesting there should be no opportunity cost whatsoever?

This change will promote skilled play instead of button spamming don’t you think?

Oldgrimm.8521:

maybe we can discuss this further when stealth changes is in full application,

regardless, we cant apply stealth either when you dodge block and evade

I’m talking about coming out of stealth not going into it…

I’d posted this earlier and it seemed to receive a good response from everyone, but it got merged and lost in the huge running thread on stealth. I think it deserves a separate discussion. Here it is:

There have been times when a thief stealths and I start moving around, dodging etc to avoid a backstab. It works and I see a “Evade” or “Block” or “Miss” or “Invulnerable” message on my screen, but still no thief. This gives them yet another chance to fix the botched attack.
It seems to me that these missed attacks should unstealth the thief. They mucked up. Now pay the price. How do they get to have yet more shots when I lucked out once by dodging at the right time?

Edit: Some here have suggested that BS (and other stealth skills) have a cooldown. I think that’s a reasonable compromise just like a warrior’s adrenaline skill.

Tournaments are supposed to be about winning at all costs. Yet I’ve seen some people stupidly remain at a point to cap it when there’s already someone there thereby wasting their abilities to the detriment of the team to get the +10 glory bonus.

Award glory only on match win – you can give something to the losing team as well depending on how badly they were beaten.

Basically incentivize the goal of winning the match. Not in-game capping.

Well, mantra of recovery was a flop. 3 seconds is too long to charge mid fight. Kept getting interrupted and lost to a warrior (gasp!).

Also traited for the condition removal on shatter and didn’t work out. Doesn’t help when you have 4 conditions on you suddenly.

So I guess it’s just null field/arcane thievery. The latter is dicey since it can be dodged, evaded, blocked, invulnerabled etc. Or just plain buggy. Null field is more reliable. Plus at I can combo off it. And I missed the 10 points in chaos with staff cooldowns, added toughness etc.

Any other suggestions for condition removal in sPvP?

In addition to phantasm mesmers (whom I can hold off for pretty long anyway), I’ve been countered hard in sPvP by condition necros. sPvP doesn’t allow foods so I’ve been taking null field and that helps. But still – today I was hit for 22k and 26k with bleeds alone. Granted, it was a pretty good player but I’ve started longing for some solid condition removal in sPvP. The rune of melandru helps, but not enough.

Caltrop thieves are particularly irritating when holding a point since their circle covers the entire target area. If it’s a large ground I can avoid it easily but not when guarding a point. They can apply bleeds so easily it’s not even funny.

Of course, I rarely come across these builds but when I do I like to know I can counter them if I have to. I need some hard condition removal…

Thinking of the inspiration trait removing conditions on shatters. Does it remove one condition for each illusion out, or just one condition per shatter skill usage? Will have to look into mantras as well.

Shukran.4851:

balance me some guardian bunker with burst thief.
then the same 2 classes after the balance with a romaing ele, then with a mesmer and ranger….explain me how to do that kind of 1v1 balance

Why do you think it’s difficult? Or even impossible? All we’re saying is that it should be a fair and entertaining 1v1 fight with equal chances for either side to win. That’s not a hard concept to grasp.

It shouldn’t be a faceroll one way or the other.

Hugo.9743:

I don’t think you’ve read my post, I’ve just explained what happens when you try to make an MMO, team game, a 1v1 oriented game. Read it again and give me something I can work with.

I’ll still address the hotjoin situation: The only importance I see for hotjoins, is only it being a platform for people to start playing, getting to know the game, and meet other people. That’s it. Not even casual gamers are supposed to be on hotjoins, the way i see it the goal here is to have that ladder/ratings and matchmaking sorted out. And if we got those things lined and polished, casual gamers WILL solo queue and have fun with it, and that’s what you’re trying to apply to hotjoins, which is wrong and unappliable.

Hotjoins is just a place to get to know the game and meet other people .You’re supposed to jump off from that ASAP. If you don’t then you’re not bringing anything competitive to the game and will never influence the game in ANY way, you’re worth is 0 for the community – Think about it: you’re just a random bot playing in hotjoins, why do we need that type of people anywhere else? We do need the ones that have potential and that will stick/glue to the game, and those will get out of hotjoins ASAP. The game won’t grow out of hotjoins, it will grow out of good decisions for sPvP and competitiveness wise. Competition and good level of playing attracts other players too.

EDIT: Put it like this, the game doesn’t have to be attractive on hotjoins because at that level and during that period players just don’t give a kitten, they are trying to learn the game, their char and every other basic individual aspect. IT DOES need to be attractive on solo queues and team tourneys because that’s where the casual and competitive scene will or SHOULD land. The reason it hasn’t been like that it’s just because Anet hasn’t reached that goal yet, and solo queues suck kitten and we don’t have a ladder or ratings yet.

At r32, I play hotjoins exclusively. And even if they implement a solo queue, I want 1v1 balance because honestly I get more satisfaction from killing and not dying than from holding a kitten point.

I am what you may call a “professional hot join player”. I don’t do it to “learn my character” or “try things out”. I do it to get glory. And I get more glory from hotjoins than tourneys because I don’t get points for just sitting on a point defending it.

Most people just want to log in and play. Teamwork that arises spontaneously out of everyone already doing what’s best for them is the most effective. Sure, solo queues will be a huge improvement, but even then it takes 2 minutes to start a game during which time I can be earning glory in hotjoin. It’s a waste.

I’m looking forward to solo queues and will definitely use them when they come up. But that doesn’t negate the need for 1v1 balance. I want to feel powerful and capable and for that I need to hold my own against any class in the game. 1 on 1. Teamwork and secondary goals come later.

And the fact that I get more glory from hotjoins is proof that this is how the game is meant to be played. Hotjoins first and foremost. Teamwork and tournaments are afterthoughts for those who want to play a different kind of game.

I’m a mesmer and I barely need to put in any skill to defeat a guardian, a warrior, necro, ele, rangers, and most thieves. The only trouble I get is with phantasm mesmers and caltrops thieves due to my specific build.

At least with a mesmer, you can can counter their moves. You can see their shatters coming and prepare for it. A mesmer’s stealth is negligible – I can do it once every 40 seconds for 3 seconds. That’s it.

With a thief stealth, there’s no counter. Merely blowing your cooldowns and hoping you get lucky isn’t a counter. It’s not smart, or skillful.

So yes – I don’t know about mesmers. We definitely have an advantage over other classes, but we can be countered. Stealth with thieves doesn’t have counterplay. It’s not fun and Anet will definitely have to make some changes to the mechanic.

Hugo.9743:

You’re all missing the kittening point. When I say this is a team game and needs to be considered and balanced as such, it’s not because there are no 1v1s going on and the game is all about teamfights.

Think about it, what will actually happen if they try to make every class balanced to 1v1? It will all become static, and then you will have no dynamics, no propper roles, NOTHING, just balanced builds for every1 which is utterly boring.

You’ll stop having people and classes specializing in what they actually were built for. Thieves won’t be there to provide the extra burst, guardian won’t be there to hold points (cus supposedly he’ll need some damage for the 1v1s l0l), necros won’t be going for condi or power well, just every kitten class will be looking for one balanced build where they can fight every other class.
Guess what? team games don’t work like that, contrary to popular belief team games don’t exactly rely on individual plays, you see the top teams playing in any online game, and what makes them be the best or beat other top teams isn’t individual skills, it’s their teamwork and the specialization on what they do that benefits the team.

Team games naturally have specializations, thats why you have a goalkeeper, a defender, attacker etc on soccer games, you don’t see defenders trying to be goalkeepers and stuff like that! You don’t see ad carries trying to be AP carries, because that’s not what they have been traniing and specializing for. Really just picture how boring it would be to have every1 play balanced 1v1 builds.

I don’t wanna see headless people running around thinking they can do everything, kill people 1v1, hold points, tank, burst etc.

I’ll go into another topic to clear ideas up about thieves.

Get this through your head people, just because your getting killed by a thief, it doesn’t mean they are overpowered, it might mean you had a bad play, or you haven’t figured out how to fight him, or he was just plain better than you.

Thieves can’t fight by themselves against every class and there’s people actually acting like it (obviously if you’re a great player you’ll be able to perform good). Thieves have a hard time fighting trap rangers, condi engies, mesmers, etcetcetc.

Matter of fact thieves aren’t really a 1v1 class. Because of their low health pool and low sustain, they can’t fight for a long time, they just rely on quick burst and if it fails, thers not much to it, the longer the ’’1v1’’ drags on, the worse for the thief. So definetely not a 1v1 class.

Thieves are there to provide bursts and kills IN a team environment, people who think thief is a solo class that u can just go around and kill every1 in 1v1 are dead wrong and are bad players. They usually help side points and engange on 2v1’s or teamfights in general rather than going for 1v1s, believe that, there’s no arguement about that here. Obviously in hotjoins its a different story, but who the kitten cares anyways, we’r talking about actually STRUCTURED PvP here.

Hotjoins are probably the most important aspect of PvP. You have to cater to hotjoins first and tournaments second. And for that, 1v1 is the only thing that matters.

Zepidel.5349:

I’d like to see longer stealth times with reveal on damage. Thieves don’t feel very sneaky when the longest stealth we have is 15 or so seconds that taking up 3 skill slots….

a nice 30 second stealth with a 30 sec cd, that would reveal you if you took any dmg at all would be really nice. I would be able to run around wvwvw and scout/look for straglers and cheesy stealth spam tactics would be nullified by a single bleed/AoE from an opponent.

Lol. I had to read this twice and still not sure if you’re serious.

I’ve heard some people here and perhaps Anet too say that the game is supposed to be balanced around team play and not 1v1. I beg to disagree.

1v1 is all that really matters.

If you balance for dueling, team balance will take care of itself. I win a good majority of my matchup on my mesmer and seriously wonder why warriors are even played anymore. Forget teamwork. If I can consistently win over another class 1v1 with absolutely no effort on my part, something is wrong.

I like to think I’m skilled, but there’s no way I can be that good. It’s clearly a class issue. I can take down most thieves easy, but I’ve heard Anet say that thieves are the “ultimate duelists”. That’s nonsense. Every class should be awesome in duels. Teamwork is less important that 1v1.

Lately Anet seems to be introducing more teamwork mechanics. I think that’s wrong. It should be designed such that everyone acting in their own best interests creates the optimal strategy.

daydream.2938:

hotjoin much? Because i dont see that many thiefs or mesmers in 1vs1 tournies. Especially thiefs, i see them in like 50% of matchs on the other team.
Eles, guardians are more common.

Im sorry but if thiefs and mesmers are what is giving you alot of trouble, you are NOT playing at a high level yet.

Since when did only the high level matter? If there’s a problem at lower levels it deserves to be addressed because there are people playing there too.

Albaraa.1635:

The hot joins aren’t really considered important…I actually don’t play them that often, I tend to just focus on tournaments, but hot joins are meant to be very flexible so yes people are going to always come and go and I don’t see that as a problem at all…UNTIL it occurs in tournaments only then does it become a problem that people leave to be honest.

My question is why does it happen more in 5v5 rooms rather than 8v8 rooms?

Hugo.9743:

Haven’t seen so much bullkitten in one topic in quite some time. I have to tell you folks, this is impressive. At least you had the balls to call it a rant post.

Clones are clones, they’re not humans. when mesmers got clones they are not 5 players against one, it’s still one player against another one.

The main reason you do not understand when people tell you thief and mesmer can be dealth with just fine it’s cus you haven’t reached the minimum level to do so (or at least it would seem like so). Now I get that you can’t play, but I’m sure you can see the clones infront of you, and therefore u can dodge em if they charge, you can time ur attacks, you can time your heals, you can destroy them easily if you have aoe (ex: eles and necros), blablablabla.

Thieves? thief is the squishiest class at this moment, and all they really bring to the table is burst and stealth, you take that away from them, they are useless and worthless, so dont wave me that nerf flag, they are totally fine in my opinion and they are doing the job they should be doing, period. You can’t avoid bursts? what happened to predicting moves, what happened to stun breaks, heals, avoidance?
Stealth has no counter? with the health pool on thief being so low its easy to just aoe and/or predict where the thief went, thieves dont stealth and get out of the map, when they stealth they are at that same spot (obviously trying to get away which most of the time is predictable pathwise).

Now I’m note responsible for stealth calltrop kitten thieves but honestly it doesn’t even concern me, since its hardly viable in competitive play.

The way the game is set up, you can’t really look at classes on a 1v1 point of view (in most scenarios anyways), but rather insert it on a team and think of what it brings to the table. And in that line of thought, I’m ok with the roles and don’t think thers OP stuff going around (gotta give a lil edge to eles but its all good).

Ima be an kitten now and go TLDR: stop crying like a kitten, man the kitten up and get good, ull stop having these lame kitten complaints I promise you. work around it instead of resigning.

EDIT: oh ye and stop playing hotjoins, i mean jesus kitten how do u even come here complaining about stuff that happens on hotjoins, no1s gonna bother with that.
EDIT2: people play mesmers and thieves more because they have an exciting and dynamic playstyle to it, fancy shadowsteps and flashy clones, thats all. because at the level your speaking of, which is hotjoints (otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about majorities), skill is the less of their concerns.

Sorry, but 1v1 fights are almost all that really matter. I say this as an r32 mesmer who does pretty kitten well. Screw team contribution – if a class can’t win a 1v1 against another, it’s no good. End of story.

There are a lot of you who do this, so I hope someone will give me an answer…

So I join a nice 5v5 server with eight people. Cool. Not too crowded like 15/16, but enough to make it a fun and strategic game. Time for a few duels without getting interrupted because of the relatively fewer people. You get to know the other guys a bit as well.

But then…you see the dreaded “Automatically Rebalancing” or “Volunteer to Rebalance” or something like that and you know people have left. Still, not too bad. Even a 3v3 is good fun. But then it drops further….3v2…2v2….2v1….1v1!

I mean huh? Why? It’s not low glory because I get a lot more glory in games that are less crowded. I get between 175-230 glory very reliably in lower population games. So it’s not that.

So…why? Why leave a server? Do you go somewhere else? Different opponents? Don’t like the map rotation? What’s the reason?

Added: Another possibility is that people leave on higher population games too, but are quickly refilled since they’re near the top of the list. The players keep churning but the room is never empty. Any truth to this?