Guild Wars 2

There is no tangible split at all.

There is some very loud crying from a small segment of the forum denizens wanting a trinity. The much larger majority want Arena.net to be able to keep their original promises because they’ve already had to compromise on many of them as it is.

If you want a holy trinity… PLAY SOMETHING ELSE and leave this game alone.

Okay… I’m sorry.

Right now, there is a lot of raw emotion being thrown out here, and it’s not going to always be logical. I’m going to stop demanding it be so. Have a good night, and whatever happens, try and have fun whether it is with this game or a different one.

Titan Cronus.9216:

Sorry you think it so ridiculous a concept man. I wasn’t making a point about them changing the content of the game, but removing content that I payed for.

I know that because we never actually own anything within the game as thats what we’re agreeing to with the terms and conditions. We agree that everything in the game belongs to them so they in fact cannot technicaly steal anyhting. But thats a technical argument and I was more making a moral one. I also said that it was theft “as far as I was concerened”.

Look, I know that my account, characters and all the digital content that I have payed for aren’t technicaly mine (because of the ToC I agreed to) but come on, it bloody well is! If I buy/pay for a car, its mine. if I buy/pay for a house, its mine. Anything that I buy and pay for legally, is mine. In just about every other industry in the world, any products you buy, you take ownership of but not in this MMO. If It were (just about) any other industry and I had bought an item that consisted of six components, and several monthes after the perchase, the company that sold me the item came and took five of the components back without my consent, that would be theft. No two ways about it, that would be theft. I bought it, took ownership of it and had it taken back without my permission and consent, thats theft.

BTW, in several countries of the world (countries like south Korea if i remember correctly), all digital property is concidered as much your as your material property and AreaNet would be liable.

Except it’s not.

It is not theft without ownership. The more accurate analogy is you leasing an item, and the company taking it back and replacing it with something else (which is something they are granted in most lease agreements). That is not theft, because the item you are leasing is not yours. You do NOT own it. There is no such thing as “moral” theft.

You do NOT own the content in the game, regardless of whether you put money into that game. That is quite clearly laid out intentionally, the content is not, and never will be yours.

You are disappointed. You are bitter because you aren’t getting what you want. And ya know what? That’s fine. You shouldn’t be happy if you aren’t getting what you want.

But one thing is not is theft, moral or otherwise.

You can TRY to report them to the Better Business Bureau.

You’ll be laughed at, but you can TRY.

Arena.net hasn’t done anything wrong other than make a change that bitterly disappointed some customers. If that was the bar for a complaint to the BBB, every country in the United States would be guilty of fraud.

You own a copy of the game (or the license to it). You do NOT own the content within that game. If the game changes that content, you have no grounds to make any legal claims against them. That is intentional… to prevent the scenario of fans filing frivolous lawsuits every time a developer makes internal changes said fans don’t like.

You’re disappointed. It sucks. No, it isn’t what you wanted. But it’s their right as the developer to change their content however they see fit, whether you approve of it or not.

Your power as the customer is to walk away, and not support developers that don’t give you what you want.

You want Arena.net to change their mind? If enough of you use that power, they will or they will fail.

By the logic he presented ANY time an MMO changes its content, that is morally theft.

It’s absurd. It’s not theft, either legally or morally. What it IS is a silly overreaction from a bitter player.

Titan Cronus.9216:

snip

And here we go into left field sillyness.

Theft? Really? Come on. I get you’re disappointed, but seriously, get real.

Tell ya what. Ya really think it’s theft? Here ya go: http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime

Follow that link, report Arena.net for theft, and see what happens.

Content within a game changes all the time, especially in MMOs. It is not theft. Period.

If you want to try and sway the opinion of a developer, accusing them of a felony probably isn’t going to tilt their ear your way.

Man, disappointment sure sends facts and reality out the window, huh? I mean, the OP’s claim is patently false, as has been demonstrated in this thread alone.

Makes me wonder why anyone WOULD listen to you at all if the first time they don’t that you accuse them of NEVER listening.

cakesphere.5910:

This is also a terrible analogy because the revamp itself is awful. It’s like if they went from analog tv to digital but removed every TV channel except one.
But it’s okay, because they will show lots of different shows on that one channel! Nevermind that you liked having several channels to choose from. This is just as good, we promise! You just have to give our one superchannel a try!

edited a few times because I type faster than my brain can move and I can’t analogy till I have my ducks in a row ><

And that is much better still. ;-)

Let’s run with that one, shall we? And drop the inane “restaurant” one forever?

Shifu.4321:

I’m guessing they looked at the numbers, saw that the amount of people who would buy outfits if they were usable in combat outnumbered those who would be affected by the change, and decided that they were willing to risk angering those who regularly used town clothes. That’s probably what happened.

Oh, I’m reasonably certain that’s EXACTLY it.

With the new system, the only thing they have to worry about is each outfit being compatible with itself. They don’t have to make each mesh be somewhat compatible with every other piece of different outfits (which is destined to fail at some level).

It’s cheaper in terms of development, which is most likely the primary reason for the change. I honestly do not believe town clothes were the hot seller that the people in this thread want to believe it was. If town clothes were making Arena.net money… it wasn’t much.

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

chemiclord.3978:

Since we’re playing on that “highly logical” extreme.

McDonalds would probably kick you out of the store long before two years to eat the burger you paid for. Just sayin’…

This feature film has been modified in proportion and duration to fit on your TV.

But it’s why I really dislike the “what if this was a restaurant?” analogy.

It’s beyond apples and oranges. It’s apples and streetcars. What is acceptable business for consumable goods is FAR different than reusable products. Of course your analogy sounds silly… because there’s absolutely no logical reason for the policies of either to overlap. The analogy is lost not because the logic of either side is unsound… but because the logic of either is completely and inherently incompatible to begin with. You CAN’T run a restaurant like a software company in any tangible way.

A much more accurate analogy, personally, would be equivalent to the shift from analog to digital TV. The change was GOING to happen, no matter how much previous adapters liked it or not. They even complained about buying a new analog set if companies KNEW it was going to change soon.

But that was going to happen no matter what. There was always going to be an unfortunate overlap somewhere, no matter WHEN they pulled the trigger. And at the end of the day, the best TV providers could do was offer a compromise while the transition was in place.

Because the transition was going to happen, and for the bulk of the customers base, it HAD to, and it wasn’t feasible to keep both methods running forever. At some point, analog signals HAD to go down permanently.

I see this as very similar. Arena.net is completely revamping how “town clothes” work… and it just isn’t realistic for them to have two completely different systems. It’s unfortunate that it’s upsetting people, but it’s unavoidable. I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to deal with it… or go somewhere else if you can’t.

At least in the case of Guild Wars 2, there are plenty of other games that might give you what you’re looking for.

Since we’re playing on that “highly logical” extreme.

McDonalds would probably kick you out of the store long before two years to eat the burger you paid for. Just sayin’…

EvE most certainly IS an MMO. Not even sure how anyone would be able to contend otherwise.

However, it IS a niche game with a much smaller target audience than GW2. I think in 2013, EvE announced it reached 450,000 subscriptions. Say Guild Wars 2 sold 450,000 copies. It would have been a catastrophic failure.

As such, it’s really not fair to either game to try and compare their development costs, times, and provided content. In EvE, the expectation is that players effectively create their own content. Expansions can be cranked out faster and at less cost. They can fund themselves that way, and they do it very well. It’s the advantage of targeting to secure a niche rather than be “AAA” or “mainstream.”

Arena.net really wouldn’t be able to get away with that because their target audience and expectations from that audience are far different. If CCP were expected to do what GW2 needs to do with the revenues CCP has available, I can guarantee you that you’d start to see a price tag slapped on those expansions.

Sir Lysander.9842:

Chemiclord -

All valid reasons. But, when they were making those decisions, they were also pushing new town clothes “out the door” at us for purchase. Had they removed all the town clothes (like they did) and gave us vague reasons why we weren’t getting new town clothes during the last two updates that supported them (Halloween and Wintersday), then announced these changes as they had, it might have been cleaner. Instead, it looks like they’ve taken it to the wall with providing us with new items, then announced that those items will provide far less functionality than originally planned (that is, how they work right now).

It really depends on WHEN they learned of the decision themselves. Just because you release features at the same time doesn’t mean you start working on them at the same time. I know someone said something about one of the designers working on them for 8 months, which depending on the development cycle at Arena.net, would have likely put that call from NCSoft around September or so… which would have been right after a lot of that seasonal stuff for Halloween was already committed to code.

(That’s just a wild guess as I don’t know what Arena.net’s development cycle usually runs, I’m just kinda averaging out my own experience of how development goes.)

As for Wintersday… that’s harder for me to explain other than maybe they did all that development in one lump package, but that is admittedly a stretch.

In my experience, I have generally found when a developer digs in their heels like this in spite of a very vocal protest, it’s not because they want to.

My completely non-snarky guess at what happened;

- Town clothes were not the seller Arena.net hoped it would be. I honestly suspect the number of people who bought into that is very, very small and the vast majority were content using their armor as a general all around look. Looking around in-game seems to support that opinion to me.

- NCSoft noted Arena.net wasn’t getting a good return on the investment in town clothes, and told them it needed to go.

- Arena.net is now stuck over a barrel. They can’t merge the two the way they want for technical reasons (again, remember the problem is that the publisher has deemed town clothes aren’t worth the effort). Then someone remembered how GW1 had all those one size fits all costumes, and so the quick attempt to create a similar concept in GW2.

- The new model is quicker to produce and costs less in terms of resources, hopefully giving Arena.net a better return on investment and trying to appeal to those who ignored town clothes because they were deemed pointless. They know they’re kittening off the group that liked the old way… but they really can’t do anything for it.

Considering the last time they tried to share a racial look these forums exploded in an incendiary fury that makes the current flap about town clothes look like a campfire… they’d have to be suicidal to try that again.

Cultural skins will still have the “Race:[x]” as part of their design.

There’s no reason they wouldn’t.

Gene Archer.8560:

chemiclord.3978:

You might as well lock and trash this thread, A.net.

Because all you’re going to hear from this point on is blind, seething rage.

Oh look. Only took four or so posts right after yours to prove you completely wrong.

You know, ANet are big boys and girls. They don’t need you to defend them from the “big bad wolves” that are people with negative criticisms. They have moderators and such.

If you’re so opposed to negative criticism, maybe you should stop coming to the forums.

My point was that they have spoken. They have decided not to give you what you want. There is no more reasonable discussion that can be had because they have put their foot down and said “No.”

Any further complaints will fall on deaf ears. They are no longer listening, and there is no point to keep this thread open. It’s only going to turn into an echo chamber of increasingly enraged demands that will not be heeded.

You might as well lock and trash this thread, A.net.

Because all you’re going to hear from this point on is blind, seething rage.

Yep. Arena.net has given the answer many people here don’t want to hear.

If this breaks the game for you, it’s time to walk away. Further complaining will fall on deaf ears.

Lheimroo.2947:

One piece of a kind of meta critique this thread brings to mind..

Arenanet, please give us some advanced warning of changes and get our feedback well in advance, please? Gigantic reveals three weeks before a big system change comes out is going to be prone to this sorta confusion.

Same dealie happened with the release of ascended gear. Feedback on some things ought to be sought before they’re finalized.

The problem there is that this fanbase has already demonstrated we can’t be trusted with that level of transparency.

Remember their blog post about what they wanted to do in 2013? They are STILL being raked over the coals by some people for not meeting every “promise” on that list. They simply can’t give “advanced warning” about what they are intending to do because there are people who will consider that a legally binding promise, and will absolutely lose their kitten if it doesn’t turn out EXACTLY how it was discussed.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Nor did I ever state they did announce content. But Rainbow Sprint was apparantly under the impression that Arenanet only announced, and I qoute: A few QoL updates

While they infact announced major features. (Like the wardrobe, which I absolutely love).

Ah… now I see the issue. There was a misquote on my very first post. I was actually attempting to respond to THIS post:

Mishee.5719:

I can see why people are getting upset, they are announcing a “big” content patch april 15:th. When they now releasing what’s coming piece by piece, we can now see that there is nothing more than just tiny updates that makes the life in Gw2 easier. I think we was hoping for something big (big in the terms of zones, armors, dungeons..etc, etc) and then got this…I really hope they don’t forget about what the “majority” wants.

Apologies for the confusion.

Becka Williams.4978:

But Anet fed the hype by releasing the blogs they way they have. If they didn’t want people to speculate, why release them over a week and a half, and give us vague titles at the start? I think it’s somewhat fair to say it’s not fair to blame anet for not giving us our wildest dreams, but I think the blame is mostly on anet for letting us run rampant with out expectations. It’s their job to temper our expectations so that we don’t get disappointed when the truth comes out.

This much is true.

Personally, my advice to Arena.net has pretty much been to not say anything. Don’t make vague promises. Don’t set timetables. Just do what you want to do, and tell customers when it’s ready. If you absolutely feel you HAVE to get player feedback, drop your ideas and tell them quite simply, “It’ll be done when it’s done. We will not give you an update. We will not give you a timetable. It’ll be done when it’s done.”

Regardless, their current method does NOT excuse the behavior of a very small segment of the player base.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Not complaining about the upcoming patch btw, I’m really looking forward to it. But what you said is not true, they did not just announce a few quality of life updates
They really did hype it up, especially with this blog list

There’s a fairly significant difference between “content” and “features”, especially when it pertains to games.

Arena.net has not at any point announced anything pertaining to a “content” patch.

sinzer.4018:

It can help foster elitist tendencies. It’s why we don’t have an inspect feature. I don’t think itd have much of an effect in that regard though.

Elitists foster elitist tendencies, and no matter what you do, those people and tendencies will always exist. There is literally nothing you can do to stop them or blunt them.

The only thing you can do is ignore them. Don’t play with them, don’t try to play with them. Find those that fit your ideal and let them do their own thing away from you.

Becka Williams.4978:

chemiclord.3978:

Step 1: Arena.net makes a vague announcement.

Step 2: Players go crazy with rampant speculation.

Step 3: Arena.net expands on their vague announcement at a later date.

Step 4: Player rage at Arena.net for “hyping” things and not delivering on players rampant speculation.

Makes sense.

If anet didn’t want us to speculate, then perhaps they should’ve made this a week long daily blog update to get the players hyped up about the posts, give us vague titles that hinted at what was to come. Anet has no one to blame but themselves.

For what it’s worth, Step 2 isn’t the problem. Step 4 is. It’s all fine to wonder, “What’s in the box?” The problem occurs when you find out what’s in the present, then throw it in their face screaming like a 4-year old because it isn’t exactly what you wanted.

And frankly, that is entirely the player’s problem. This “hype” is almost entirely player driven, and therefore we are to blame.

Substance E.4852:

Didn’t do jack squat for Crit damage changes and the watchwork pick still gives out sprockets.

It is true that no amount of protest will make Arena.net reconsider doing something they decide HAS to change for the good of the game.

But the only way you find out if a change is one they feel has to happen is to make your voice heard.

They did NOT announce a big “content” patch.

They NEVER announced a big “content” patch.

That you convinced yourself they did is YOUR problem.

Niteip.8301:

long discussion all ready in this thread. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-Questions-Legendaries-in-Wardrobe/page/12#post3821535

And this is pretty much why you’re hearing the world’s smallest violin right now, OP.

I’m not being hostile.

You have two legendaries. You will continue to have two legendary weapons that you can now share with any other character on your account.

Your situation has only improved, even if you think someone else’s situation has improved more.

You will not be compensated because nothing has been taken from you.

Xenesis.6389:

If they don’t want players rage than don’t make vague announcement titles a week before.
It’s really that simple.

Then those same players rage at Arena.net for not being “transparent” and not letting them know what’s going on until it’s kitten near too late.

It’s lose/lose with you people.

And now your legendary will be permanently account bound.

You won’t get compensated, nor should you.

Step 1: Arena.net makes a vague announcement.

Step 2: Players go crazy with rampant speculation.

Step 3: Arena.net expands on their vague announcement at a later date.

Step 4: Player rage at Arena.net for “hyping” things and not delivering on players rampant speculation.

Makes sense.

Tai Kratos.3247:

And it isn’t their game: it’s ours.

No. It’s not. In ANY way, either legal or logical. I don’t care about your emotional investment. That is no grounds for ownership. Period.

You bought a product. That’s all. You are a CUSTOMER. You own the disc that came with your purchase (or the license you were given if you purchased on-line). Your ownership extends no further.

If they want to change something, that is their call, and they are under NO obligation whatsoever to discuss it with you. Nor are they responsible for any expectations you created for them.

hazenvirus.8154:

chemiclord.3978:

YOU wouldn’t.

You don’t speak for anyone other than yourself. Stop pretending you do.

Who are you referring to? Are you saying that anyone wouldn’t happily give up their second bolt for 2,900g and a couple of ascended weapons? (which could then be transmuted into bolts because they just added the first to their wardrobe)

I am saying that “NO ONE would [x]” isn’t his place to say.

I have two Incinerators. I really couldn’t care less if someone else can have that same look for less gold. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest. And I really don’t see any reason why I’d want to return one of them.

No, they shouldn’t discuss every change with players first. And it’s the height of entitlement to expect/demand they do so.

It’s THEIR game. Not YOURS. They choose what they do, and you choose whether to continue supporting their efforts or not.

YOU wouldn’t.

You don’t speak for anyone other than yourself. Stop pretending you do.

The ONLY thing you will be able to have is something that LOOKS like Twilight at level 1… if you so desired.

Or you could LOOK like you had two Bolts… but only one would have the legendary attributes.

If you wanted to have two Bolts with all their functionality… then uhhhh… you might want to keep both.

Max Lexandre.6279:

At a point just saying it’s not impossible because it isn’t. It really requires the design team to get into this and do the conversion to make awesome things happen, even if it requires to visually affect the clothes, it’s better than the alternate solution.

There’s a difference between “impossible” and “not feasible.”

I don’t know what the limitations or restrictions are. I can only guess. So can anyone else. What I really am getting tired of are people with NO knowledge of the code or the systems involved pretending it’s something easily solved and its just a matter of being lazy or stupid.

What I can say is from what I’ve gleaned, no… it’s NOT something that would be easily managed. You’d have to adjust EVERY piece of town clothes to work with the animations involved. Not “impossible” by any stretch, but would it REALLY be worth the investment of time and manpower?

Arena.net apparently thinks “No.” You can try to convince them otherwise, like many have in this thread alone, but come on… we can also lay off the spiteful venom.

DeWolfe.2174:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Sorry about the mix-and-match. Converting things to be armor and combat compatible did come with some trade-offs.

Excuse me one second but, there are no technology hurdles to this. It’s simply a matter of time and effort. Which should still be able to be completed. Heck, the player base could accomplish it ourselves it we had access under the hood.

No. You couldn’t. You’d just break something else and let loose an entirely different angry horde. But eff them. You got what YOU wanted, right?

Stop pretending you could do their jobs better than they can. You can’t.

It just seems like the easiest solution would be to drop the idea of “town clothes” entirely, make any existing town clothes item function like a normal armor skin, and let players go nuts with it.

My guess is that as tonics they can create “town outfits” without having to worry about mix-n-match issues (like having to make sure all tops can merge with all bottoms), and have decided the number of people who mix-n-match aren’t worth investing the manpower into catering to.

Thing is, you were NEVER going to get a wardrobe where you could just switch your look for free at any time. The transmutation stones were no doubt FAR too good of sellers for them to give up on that method of revenue.

It just wasn’t going to happen. The best we could have reasonably hoped for was something like this, where your old look isn’t outright destroyed every time you changed it.

I don’t think the goal of the Ferocity change is specifically to nerf Berzerker gear as much as it is to normalize crit damage (most likely because they’re planning more vertical progression of stats), and want critical damage on the same diminishing returns scale as opposed to a flat percentage.

Cinnamon Goddess.3869:

You people do realize that this is an arbitrary drop rate set by Anet and can be changed.

People saying something is overpriced isn’t generally what you think. It is really saying saying that the drop rate is too low or gold is too hard to come by, not necessarily that it is overpriced.

So they change the drop rate, the game is flooded with [x], then people complain there’s too much of [x] and they can’t make any money of it, and it sucks.

Just like players did when silk scraps were being sold at kitten near vendor cost and people were vendoring away “whole stacks of worthless silk.” Because see, there IS no “middle ground.” No matter how the numbers are tweaked, it will inevitably reach the point where supply exceeds demand and the product becomes “worthless.”

The question really is… is it better to have too much of something, or too little? Because that’s how it will eventually play out no matter what.

Umut.5471:

Imo, the tournament prize will be the only well-earned legendary.

Has nothing to do with it being “well-earned” or not.

But their addition to a PvP tournament won’t make them any more or any less “meaningless.” It’s a cool reward for people who invested their time in the PvP section. That’s it. It won’t devalue anything on either side.

chronometria.3708:

What puzzles me is that the sort of people who will win such a tournament most likely already have one or more than one legendary.

They probably regard such a prize as worthless.

Actually, they probably don’t.

Barring some shocking run from a “nobody”, the people who are going to win this tournament have spent their time pretty much doing nothing but PvP, which isn’t going to earn you much that can be put towards the legendary grind.

I like to remind people who are displeased that their gold is worth less that the players themselves are responsible for it when they constantly and incessantly whined and complained that events/dungeons/farming wasn’t “rewarding enough.”

We got what we asked for. Players need to start looking in the mirror to see what is wrong with the games they play. 90% of the time, the problem exists between the keyboard and chair.

Forum sentiment rarely reflects in game sentiment.

The only time I’ve EVER been kicked from a group when playing my Ranger are on occasions where I intentionally trolled groups that specifically said “NO RANGARS!”

And that has been twice in all of two years.

The “ranger hate” is WAY overplayed on these forums.

If you don’t think that winning (or finishing highly) in this coming tournament, especially considering the number of hours the winning team will put into this competition, isn’t going to take a lot of time and effort… there’s nothing I or anyone can tell you that you won’t dismiss either.

These rewards are perfectly acceptable, and I’d dare say long overdue for the PvP players. Stop whining.

Arena.net. Do this. Take my money.