Guild Wars 2

For sure, can’t say we (team RIOT) are too excited for the new borderlands (everything seems to favor/push towards zerging), but we’ll be running a raiding group and diving into fractals + doing sPvP & our normal wvw-small-man roaming. You sound a little more hardcore than we as a guild will be with raids (we’re doing 1 day/week for 4 hours or so (casual time commitment) with a hardcore/pve meta focus), but we’re pretty chill on time commitment/repping/etc; feel free to hit me up more in game and we can chat or check out our about section http://www.teamriot.org/about.

One love brah,
doc

Bump bump bump bump bump

Long time no see Chris; sup bud

one bump went bump on a bump

back to the top... (bump)

You can also trait for stab on dodge and then follow it up with an immediate block.

Pets all have 1 F2 ability, however, they have 3 passive skills that vary and also 1 of those passive skills (controlled by the AI, but also loosely by the player if you’re good at toggling aggressive/passive stance) will usually have something a bit more to it (i.e. birds can cast swiftness, canines can leap stun, etc).

The cast times [for f2] in general are fairly similar across all pets; however, some do function rather differently. For example, birds will only cast when they are in melee range, panther stealth will cast immediately, canines will get within max range (600? if I recall correctly) and then channel. The important thing to keep in mind though is if your pets are spec’d for taunt - then the taunt will cast as soon as the channel of the actual skill begins (often you’ll see the wolf [if they’re close] taunt a player and then shortly after also fear). Pet f2 cooldowns also vary drastically and is often with the taunt meta why you will see 5-second CD birds being run.

Overall, just equip the pets and try them out - it’s nice to see a bit of variety in sPvP as it used to primarily be canines only for the leap stuns & fear/immob combo.

bumpity bump bump

Team RIOT, a NA Blackgate PvP/WvW (small-man roaming, 1-5 person’s) guild, is recruiting players for the upcoming expansion. Along with PvP/WvW, we are in the process of establishing a raiding group (hardcore focus, casual time investment).

Check out teamriot.org for more information/details.

You can also check out our media on twitch or youtube our members’ videos to get an idea of our play style/etc.

Please note our recruitment process takes approximately 1-3 weeks to complete. Moreover, we are an intentionally small community (roughly 10-15 very active members that play most days during the evenings (PST)) and consequently we are only looking to pick-up 1-2 members for the coming expansion. Contact me via gw2 forums, teamriot.org forums or in-game for any questions.

Thanks, doc

For pvp; I actually really like ventari and it is really strong if you spec bunkerish. That being said, I ran Rev with a glass build and just the ability to swap to tablet and reflect for a solid 6-7 seconds (if you spent all your energy on it) was really useful (especially when stomping or if a ranger opened up with you at long distance). I feel like if anything the traits need a bit of re-working (maybe two tablets to spawn if you spec it or the ability to reduce the cost of the ventari utilities would be nice). The other thing to note as most of you have seen; moving the tablet = counts as a heal; so there’s a lot of rune sets that offer various boons/heals/+energy every 10 seconds/on heal use, which I didn’t get a ton of time to experiment with but seemed rather interesting & promising (for example runes of lyssa = random boon every 10 seconds).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?

Rate = how often you can do something, but he doesn’t apparently remember that he used that word. Or conveniently forgot. Just take my advice and let him rattle on to himself.

Oh is this the part where you ignore my other ’illogical comments’ and piggyback on someone else?

I will admit though rate definitely is situational among the two classes, but to think thief is simply just backstab >stealth >backstab >stealth over and over means you probably have never actually played the class. Granted thief cooldowns are definitely shorter (hell weapon abilities have none and random util lines can get reset with steal), but the opportunities to safely step out and burst are significantly few and far between (see the million posts I’ve previously mentioned about invuls, reflects, multiple generated targets [e.g. clones/phantasms/etc], and instant stuns that allow mesmers to maintain pressure/burst at a higher rate).

Mak.2657:

Dude, I just cited you. And yes, CDs are relevant here. Why I should think opposite?..
Or you think backstab without mug is not a burst? Or what?
1. Thief has better sustained dps - good AAs doing most part of work here.
2. Thief has potentially faster burst rate baecause of CDs.

You should try stealth spamming/opening as a thief; you can do 1 full rotation and then you’re out of initiative if you try it again not to mention mug is of course not even up and this is further assuming the thief is just running around the whole time with nobody focusing him... that happens all the time, "Hey glass thief is out, everyone ignore him and just let him do the same rotation 2-3x!"

Mak.2657:

docMed.7692:

Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target

Burst at a higher rate then thief? How? MW (main part of mesmer burst) is on 10-12s. Backstab (main part of thief burst) limited by stealth – 3-4s. It is a matter of thief’s weapons choice + iniative/utility management. To add, probably mesmer is more reliant on burst then thief (not touching illusions – squishy, removed on death effect, etc), thief has decent autoattacks to feel gaps.

You’re bringing in cooldown durations in a discussion about burst…? Do you understand what ‘burst’ means as opposed to ‘sustained dps’? Just wow…

apharma.3741:

Mesmer auto attack does almost half what other classes do.

That’s funny, because I think I actually said about 10 posts back that Mesmer sword damage needs a buff /facepalm. Thanks for being caught up on the thread though.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Either way, sounds like we disagree on the tweaking - I’m calling for 2-4 second shaving on a single skill and *you took that concept and QQ’d about thief* (I don’t blame you though, they wrecked mesmers for so long it was rather lame). Also, thieves absolutely cannot use SR the same offensive way mesmers use MI; unless you mean thieves are walking up to targets and throwing SR down on them and then immediately opening... which in that case the thief is either bad or already infinitely ahead in the match.

Bullkitten.
It’s your OP that says essentially "thief stealth got nerfed and so mesmer stealth should too!"
Thief has been involved in this from the beginning, and YOU brought it in.

As far as I’m concerned, the intellectual dishonesty you just displayed shreds whatever benefit of the doubt you might have merited, and I now believe there can be no value to further discussion with you, as you are not coming to this in good faith.

You are wrong, your points are logically invalid and grounded in the first place in a false understanding of the mechanics involved, and I believe Fay and I have made that abundantly clear to outside observers, that will suffice.

Have a good night.

I’ve again already explained to you the title (I love our circular conversations where you keep bringing up points that have already been refuted /snooze) and simply because you interpret it as a ’thief got nerfed so should mes’ that is still factually incorrect. If you want to interpret the title verbatim (which is a pretty funny way to rest your entire logic of discussion on): technically it is; thief got nerfed in stealth duration long ago, and arenanet recently decided to increase stealth duration of the mesmer so it can now function similar to how perma-stealth DP used to be hated and functioned back in the day (e.g. reset as it sees fit, burst unpredictably, etc) and thus the mesmer can now dawn the title in a similar manner - You are the one who continuously bring up thief and QQ’s about it as a comparison. Simply stating something is logically flawed by only bringing your opinion into it is quite hillarious; not to mention the fact you’ve completely ignored every comment I continuously make about mesmer stealth duration + their mechanics as a class is how it should be evaluated (not stealth duration of X class vs stealth duration of Y class) - care to address that point for me with your ever inflated ego (I mean ’logic’)?

I unfortunately have to leave for the evening though, but I’ll check back to see where this convo. has gone soon enough.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

I’ve already stated in multiple posts that Mesmers get the ‘lack of stealth compared to thief’ filled by other options (aegis if they’re lucky in stealth, reflects, multiple sources of invuls, clones + phantasm misdirection, etc). No duh a thief is better at stealth and no duh thief stealth is also strong (I’d be fine with it slightly tuned down -3 seconds on SR and/or just removing the stealth duration in SA line). If you think thieves should have the same raw stealth output as a Mesmer then thieves should have all the additional properties mes have too (portals, 2000 range MI, invuls, reflects, etc) – clearly they operate differently. To think that they have to offer the same amount of stealth is just insanity and you’re ignoring the other 75% of their components (amongst both thief and Mesmer) that make them good and efficient at what they do. Trying to compare single skills of two very different classes is pointless and why I’ve constantly been saying you have to take a look at the entire build. I mention in my original post that I believe everything a Mesmer currently has at their disposal is nice (in fact I would actually like their burst tuned up slightly on sword) and that they need to tweak how MI/PU operate. I would also be completely fine with stealth duration on thieves toned down – to the same level as Mesmer? No, of course not.

Don’t declaim me for misquoting you or putting words in your mouth, then turn around and perform the same kind of strawman bull.

I don’t think they should have the same amount of stealth access and I know that they don’t. I’ve done the math, the same math you mocked me earlier for. Thieves have more. SR provides more stealth than MI, at a lower cooldown and as a utility skill instead of an elite, but at equivalent other costs.
That is as it should be.

Thieves have more and better stealth, and that is right and proper.

But your claim that specific mesmer skills are OP and should be cut down when they are at the very worst similar to thief skills that have shorter cooldowns and lower opportunity cost? Ridiculous.

It’s not ridiculous when you incorporate all the mechanics mesmers can do along with their current stealth mechanics. A thief standing in the open is always a focused target – I’m 100% certain that any match you play or queue with friends, whenever the thief pops out that is your target. Guaranteed. Clearly it must be because they operate just the same as mesmers and have the same tools.

Either way, sounds like we disagree on the tweaking – I’m calling for 2-4 second shaving on a single skill and you took that concept and QQ’d about thief (I don’t blame you though, they wrecked mesmers for so long it was rather lame). Also, thieves absolutely cannot use SR the same offensive way mesmers use MI; unless you mean thieves are walking up to targets and throwing SR down on them and then immediately opening… which in that case the thief is either bad or already infinitely ahead in the match.

I would be all for shortening the stealth across the board for both thief and Mesmer, so I really don’t get why we’re having this circular discussion where you’re trying to benchmark one class against the other when they clearly operate entirely differently. Saying “we don’t have all the same things thief has” is pointless – I can again point to all the things Mesmer have and say “thieves should have those too!”.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your "logic".

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do - they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

*Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.*

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively... but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

Let me be more clear.

*Mesmers use MI in the exact same way that thieves use SR; both offensively and defensively, for a burst in a fight or for a fast +1. Any attempt to say otherwise is pure lunacy.*

I also enjoy you trying to ignore that I took your ’mesmer is op’ arguments and applied them to thief instead.

Where exactly am I ignoring - I’m outright discussing with you and commenting... What world is this? Are we speaking English or is there some lost in translation aspect here. You claim I ignore your comments, yet here you are doing just that...

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

skewing it towards your perspective.

kitten right I am, because you’re missing that perspective completely.

docMed.7692:

Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill; which is entirely untrue. In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do - they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Incorrect, Fay does not believe SR is OP, he’s drawing a straight line between your strange insistence that Mesmer stealth is OP but SR is not, when SR provides more stealth with equivalent caveats (SR untraited forces waiting in an area for 4s to get 11s stealth and some healing as a utility skill on a 60s cooldown, MI traited forces 1.75s channel to get 10s of stealth and some boons as an elite skill on a 90s cooldown).
All benefits of MI to a mesmer are roughly equivalent to the benefits a thief enjoys from SR, at a lower build opportunity cost. Yet you say MI traited is OP, but SR untraited is not because without "full healing" and extra "condi cleanse", neither of which things Mesmer gets from MI, Thieves can’t reopen the fight but mesmers somehow can.
That kind of myopia is just a little nuts at this point.

docMed.7692:

The main thing you’re missing here is you’re assuming I’m posting from the perspective of a thief (I have 8 80’s, 4500 hours+ and play mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, ranger, necro [not guard too much]) in PvP.

No, I’m assuming you have a strange bias against mesmer stealth that you don’t have against thief stealth. I don’t give a rat’s kitten what you actually play, I’m calling the logic as I see it.
I have my own shortcomings to deal with in pvp and elsewhere, yours are utterly irrelevant to me.

docMed.7692:

Thief vs Mes is well balanced, and I actually like the balance of how thief is in many matches (short of a couple things like double steal >> fear on necro for example), but Mesmer is definitely the apex in +1’ing fights at the moment and 10 seconds with MI is far too much (should be 6 imo).

This is exactly the problem, your claim of 10s as too much has no substantiation, and runs counter to your expressed view that untraited Shadow Refuge is not OP, since SR untraited still provides MORE stealth!

I’ve already stated in multiple posts that Mesmers get the ’lack of stealth compared to thief’ filled by other options (aegis if they’re lucky in stealth, reflects, multiple sources of invuls, clones + phantasm misdirection, etc). No duh a thief is better at stealth and no duh thief stealth is also strong (I’d be fine with it slightly tuned down -3 seconds on SR and/or just removing the plus stealth duration in SA line). If you think thieves should have the same raw stealth output as a Mesmer then thieves should have all the additional properties mes have too (portals, 2000+ range MI, invuls, reflects, etc) - clearly they operate differently. To think that they have to offer the same amount of stealth is just insanity and you’re ignoring the other 75% of their components (amongst both thief and Mesmer) that make them good and efficient at what they do. Trying to compare single skills of two very different classes is pointless and why I’ve constantly been saying you have to take a look at the entire build. I mention in my original post that I believe everything a Mesmer currently has at their disposal is nice (in fact I would actually like their burst tuned up slightly on sword) and that they need to tweak how MI/PU operate. I would also be completely fine with stealth duration on thieves toned down - to the same level as Mesmer? No, of course not.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill;

This is a lie. What I did was take your exact argument from a post you had just made, and applied it to SR. You have reasons for MI with PU being op. I took those same reasons and applied them to SR, and resulted in the same conclusion. You didn’t like that ofc, and so have spent the past hour trying to lead the discussion away from that flaw in your “logic”.

docMed.7692:

In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

Let me tell you a secret.

Thieves use SR offensively just like mesmers use MI offensively.

I know, hard to believe, and it’s a tough concept to understand, but it’s actually true.

I’ve already said in posts repeatedly that thieves use SR offensively… but it’s only because they’re ahead in a fight and speeding up the victory they already see; which means you were out-played significantly and/or a thief +1’d a fight and decided to blow his wad.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

Mesmer can’t 1-shot any class from stealth either unless it’s a glass spec. You must have missed the memo, Anet nerfed our burst so that it’s not as high as before

I appreciate your attempts at misdirection and outright distortion of facts, but it won’t help your argument.

You’re right… it does have zero bearing on burst from stealth; but you started saying how limited mesmers are in stealth, but those tools I just listed are what fill your gaps in ‘not having as much stealth as thieves’.

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

Has zero bearing on burst from stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

Mesmer can’t 1-shot any class from stealth either unless it’s a glass spec. You must have missed the memo, Anet nerfed our burst so that it’s not as high as before

I appreciate your attempts at misdirection and outright distortion of facts, but it won’t help your argument.

Rangers, Ele’s (yep even DD) & any glass build can definitely get 1-shot - I do it and see it happen all the time; not sure what you’re talking about.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes),

They have evades on-demand.

docMed.7692:

clones

Clones provide no defensive benefit, no one is fooled by clones anymore.

docMed.7692:

phantasms,

Don’t survive long enough in pvp to accomplish anything, and would just get shattered before then anyway.

docMed.7692:

access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal)

I do like me some reflects. Can’t effectively run stealth at the same time, though, or the reflects become a way to counterplay my stealth.

docMed.7692:

not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst any class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up).

Neither can mesmers. Try to keep up, we just got nerfed.

docMed.7692:

No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

What, exactly, do you think Backstab is? Are you under the impression that mesmers gain extra damage to shatter coming out of stealth? Mesmers get no extra benefit from coming out of stealth, but thieves do. That’s kind of why backstab is scary and so much thought is put into how you might avoid the backstab.

Backstab hits for 7k on glass (at most) on a meta DP build; so let’s say you land a perfect open (mug + backstab >> heartseeker) and the enemy just sits there for the 3-4 seconds it would take; you can dump around 11k on a pure glass class (which is great, I don’t have any problems on glass vs glass – that’s a strong number). Mesmers however can aoe shatter/boon clear and further burst at a higher rate on a single target and when you’re not a primary stealthing class (see: warrior, ele, ranger, guardian, necro, engi) it becomes a guessing game to when a Mesmer is throwing out his burst. Thieves do not enter SR to simply pop out and instantly gib you – they go in it defensively and/or for a reset. Mesmers will use it for the same concept, but if you think any thief is throwing down SR to just pop-out in a few seconds and insta-gib you, well then you already were far behind in the fight at that point and the thief decided it would be quick/worth the risk.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

I’ve said repeatedly that SA is stupid on thieves lol (and that’s what makes their skills like SR/insta stealths super OP). I’m sorry that I didn’t come to the Mesmer forums and create a Shadow Arts is dumb on thieves thread?

You’re missing the point, repeatedly.

docMed claims: SA is overpowered on Thieves, lots of stealth is overpowered on Mesmers
Fay et al object: Thieves get more stealth than PU Mesmers even without SA, and just as easy.
docMed rebuts: Thieves without SA are wasting their stealth!
Fay et al are confused: But…we just said it’s the same between Mesmers and Thieves without SA…so…why is Mesmer stealth OP if Thieves have the same or better?
docMed misses the point.

You’re recounting it entirely inaccurately & skewing it towards your perspective. Fay stated SR by itself was an OP skill; which is entirely untrue. In the current meta, not speccing SA and just throwing down SR is useless and only serves as an escape (not to re-open on a target, which is the opposite of what mesmers do – they will Mass to simply wait/setup for a burst).

The main thing you’re missing here is you’re assuming I’m posting from the perspective of a thief (I have 8 80’s, 4500 hours+ and play mesmer, thief, warrior, ele, ranger, necro [not guard too much]) in PvP. Thief vs Mes is well balanced, and I actually like the balance of how thief is in many matches (short of a couple things like double steal >> fear on necro for example), but Mesmer is definitely the apex in +1’ing fights at the moment and 10 seconds with MI is far too much (should be 6 imo).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)... what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ’skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

I’m sorry, but...how much of what you just cited as essential to thief stealth is actually available to quick Mesmer stealth? The Prestige, traited, clears all of 1 condition.
Stealthing does not heal the mesmer, and it barely clears any condis. The boons PU grants are rather insignificant, with Aegis being the only boon that might make up some of the difference. Mesmers do not gain extra damage coming out of stealth as thieves do.

You’re lambasting the idea of a thief using SR without SA, but...Mesmers don’t have SA.

Thieves don’t have invuls (less you count vamp runes), clones, phantasms, access to reflects (short of a terrible utils/elites that nobody uses and/or warrior steal) not to mention they can’t 1-shot burst a single class out of stealth (unless they catch another glass class like thief/mes with no util’s up or spec a gimmicky build that is useless in a majority of scenarios). No thief runs +power on reveal.. lol?

I’ve said repeatedly that SA is stupid on thieves lol (and that’s what makes their skills like SR/insta stealths super OP). I’m sorry that I didn’t come to the Mesmer forums and create a Shadow Arts is dumb on thieves thread?

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, *and* be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept - the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

As I had already said, shadow refuge does what I described without any trait investment, SA is not part of my argument. It does all those things, and yet you simply call it ’annoying’ instead of calling for nerfs to it.

Why is burning a 90s cd elite along with another stealth skill while *also* traiting PU op but simply dropping SR and standing in it for 3 seconds isn’t?

Ah right, because SR is a thief skill, and thief skills are never op obviously.

SA is what allows for thieves to easily reset in a SR (full condi clear, increased stealth duration, constant HP regen [300+/tick], added stealth to both yourself and your target when rezzing)... what are you talking about. Any thief that throws down shadow refuge as a means to simply enter stealth & re-open is already behind significantly in a fight if they don’t have SA. Sure they can escape or dodge around if they’re running acrobatics, but re-opening without getting the condi-clear/full heal would be death in this current meta anyways. Trying to analyze ’skill vs skill’ (as opposed to discussing how the build as a whole functions) is pointless; do you know warriors can axe burst skill for 15k+ without ANY investment? Dang must be OP k-appa!

Fay.2357:

docMed.7692:

I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

This is amusingly hypocritical. If you think an elite skill with a 90s cooldown and an enormous 1.75 second channel that gives 5s base stealth needs to be nerfed, you’re out of your mind when thief can get even more stealth on a lower cooldown without trait investment or a long channel by just dropping shadow refuge. Yes, you can be knocked out, so try dodging next time.

In order to reach the amount of stealth that a thief can get simply by using shadow refuge, we have to burn an elite, another stealth skill, and be traited for PU. If you really think those should be nerfed, then you’ll surely agree that SR should only give 8s maximum, and the radius of the skill should be dropped by 25%.

Yea if you took the time to read any of my posts you would see a recurring theme of me constantly mentioning that SA is OP (which adds to stealth duration) and that thieves can be just as annoying in this concept – the only distinction I made is simply that mesmers can enter stealth in much safer locations, where as thieves either sit in a defined spot (SR location) or black powder >> HS through or swap + SB-2 (we of course, just like mesmers, have access to a couple instant stealth options >> e.g. spec’d steal, and/or utils).

I’m glad you were amused nonetheless.

Iavra.8510:

If you are playing power, a good thief will still counter you, it just isn’t as easy as it was before.

Agreed; thief vs mesmer is in a much better place with each being able to get opened on/out-played by the other.

cyyrix.6105:

It’s interesting to see complaints against mesmer on predicting bursts out of stealth. This has been a gripe mesmers had with thieves for a long time. Thieves would typically brush this off with these arguments:

1) We’re not invulnerable while in stealth (mesmers have too little AoE to play guessing games)
2) Count to 4 then dodge (good thieves switch up timing...also SR)
3) Use your defensive skills (works once, but too easy for thief to try stealthing again before they’re back off CD)
4) Deny stealth (see 3...also, with a BP/HS combo, a thief can still get off a 2nd HS after being interrupted by daze mantra)

I’m not defending one side or the other, but the tables have certainly turned a bit.

Couldn’t agree more - thieves are still really strong even against mesmers, etc, and outside of the stealth duration I really like the place mesmers are in (thief vs mesmer is in a fun place at the moment). It’s just literally the +stealth duration via PU that is a bit too strong. Mesmers and thieves have different mechanics entering stealth though and there are a lot of methods to pull thieves out (push/knockback/fear/taunt out of SR) where as the only method is interrupting a Mesmer (they don’t have to sit in a confined place to enter stealth and they also have a lot of instant cast stealths available), which leads me back to the initial point I made regarding the inability to really counter play the mechanic. Mesmer burst (at least when landed properly with a clone or two + shatter) is also definitely higher than a thieves at the moment; there is nothing we can 1 shot in sPvP unless we are running like a gimmicky D/D build and/or sigil of agi + might stacking and that’s only against other glass builds. But either way, this post was definitely not about thief vs mesmer - I think that’s actually overall in a fairly good place now - I’d just love to see mass/PU get nerfed a bit in duration (down to 6 seconds or so) to keep players not in stealth from simply wasting all evades/random dodges trying to predict when the burst/shatter is coming.

On a side note; I also think shadow arts is stupidly OP in sPvP and WvW (rejuv in stealth needs to be nerfed significantly).

You really should re-read my posts; you’re just picking and choosing what you’d like to talk about and grossly extrapolating my comments to serve your needs. This just leads to a circular conversation and back to my original intent of ceasing to engage with you. Is there any way you can learn to be concise or at least attempt to put it to practice?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Your inclination to take every statement as a blatant attack is your own arrogance at play;

Suggesting I have more humility and tact is an attack.
My other ridicule is not regarding your attitude toward me, but your disrespect in making declarations in a forum without doing basic fact-checking about those declarations.

docMed.7692:

to further establish yourself as the voice of this sub-forum is foolish at minimum.

I don’t need to be able to speak for the forum to point out disrespect, and I don’t claim to speak for more than my observations of the general tenor of posts I have read.

docMed.7692:

If you read up you would also note my admittances, but that would require effort beyond your own walls of text.

Looking back, I do see you admitted you were wrong about stealthed clones and clone generation. I apologize for not acknowledging that.
I don’t apologize for what followed, as you responded to my rebuttal by refusing to do the work to understand it, which again, is exactly what got this all started in the first place.

docMed.7692:

On a side note, don’t you feel a bit embarrassed using bold and _callouts_ to try and establish your comments as some standalone epiphany? It screams a lack of intelligence and is even that much more entertaining when you’re clearly trying to present yourself as having any.

Bold and italics are used for emphasis. I use the tools of emphasis available to my medium, as speakers and writers always have.
This is kind of a weird claim to make, that using emphasis in speech and writing screams a lack of intelligence, since that’s never been true, ever. I can’t imagine where you’re getting it from.

Frankly, taking a look at the links in your signature, I’m shocked that you could have come in here with as poor of misconceptions about mesmers as you did. It seems clear that you have enough experience and care about this game to be capable of understanding the mechanics in play, and to put in the effort to do so, but your behavior here has simply suggested you consider yourself above the need to understand what it is you’re whining about.

Why even post, if you think it beneath you to take the time to understand what you’re posting about?

You were met with the gauge & tone you presented; I have 0 interest in refuting a wall of text aimed at precision, but without a sense of practicality and reality. You literally broke down Thief vs Mesmer stealth timers, which clearly wasn’t even the subject of the topic - The title was simply to illustrate the exaggerated duration mesmers have received in the realm of stealth uptime compared against a prior (and nerfed) reference point; You’ll excuse me if I don’t feel inclined to go through block by block of your post to discuss up-times of stealth between these two distinct professions (let alone the fact that thief and mesmer enter stealth often for very different reasons and thus are difficult to compare in actual balance/use regarding stealth times).

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Try a little humility and tact and you might get somewhere. Until then /zzz

Your original post is a little knot of ignorance.

You disrespect the entire forum when you come in here complaining about the topic of the forum without doing the minimum required research to double-check your facts.

To be humble is to be teachable, or willing to revise your own views on careful examination of the views of another, or the facts presented.
Having examined your opinion and found it to be both incorrect factually and disrespectful to those who frequent this forum, I gave my response accordingly.

Your efforts to cover for your ignorance and disrespect by first pretending that a "this is an exaggeration!" disclaimer is at all meaningful, then implying that you’re trolling, and then pretending that facts are irrelevant if you don’t like my tone, are all just smoke and mirrors, fooling no one.

Taking your own tack, I’d be inclined to apologize for my tone if you’d display enough _humility_ to admit that you were wrong, as I have abundantly shown that you were. Your failure to admit your own failings makes your calls for humility too hypocritical to be worthy of consideration.

Your inclination to take every statement as a blatant attack is your own arrogance at play; to further establish yourself as the voice of this sub-forum is foolish at minimum. If you read up you would also note my admittances, but that would require effort beyond your own walls of text.

On a side note, don’t you feel a bit embarrassed using bold and _callouts_ to try and establish your comments as some standalone epiphany? It screams a lack of intelligence and is even that much more entertaining when you’re clearly trying to present yourself as having any.

Try a little humility and tact and you might get somewhere. Until then /zzz

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Tldr please

No. The problem in the first place is you whining without doing your homework.
I brought the homework to you, and you still won’t read it. Study or gtfo.

Haha. This thread is getting good.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

So are we going to continue to ignore the 10 seconds of stealth as I mentioned here lol? I’m happy to say I’m wrong about having clones on dodge; doesn’t change the counter-play aspect or reset aspect I brought up continuously here.

You brought up a specific combo, which relied on getting a whole bunch of clones while stealthed. The 10s stealth is rather irrelevant, as they can’t pull the combo you are whining about. Doesn’t mean 10s of stealth isn’t strong.
And frankly, you didn’t come in here whining about 10s of stealth, you came in here whining about “perma-stealth”, which isn’t even remotely possible with the build you are whining about.

Let’s add to that your original, crazy premise, that somehow thieves have been unseated by mesmer stealth.
MI = 10s stealth after a 1.75s channel, and it’s an elite skill.
Shadow Refuge = 15s stealth, but you have to stay in the circle for 3s, and it’s a utility skill.

Ta da, thief has already beat mesmer’s #1 invisibility skill. But we don’t have to stop there, and really we shouldn’t, since the mesmer in question also has The Prestige and Decoy.

Black Powder+Blinding Powder = 7s stealth with kitten channel and a 40s cooldown. That’s 1s longer than decoy, with the same utility slot investment.
If you can get a heartseeker strike out of the black powder as well, that’ll take you to 11s of stealth, and now you’re only 1s stealth less than decoy and the prestige together.
Oh, but we can get 4s from Hide In Shadows, so that puts us at 15s of stealth, which is now MORE than decoy and the prestige!
So our theoretical mesmer has now taken an inferior offhand weapon, 1 utility and 1 elite skill to get 10+12=22s of stealth.
Our theoretical thief has taken 2 utilities and 1 heal skill to get 15+15=30s of stealth.
And the thief can go deeper too, if he wants. Stealth on steal for more in-combat stealth, smoke screen+shortbow for infinite stealth, multiple heartseeker strikes through black powder for extra stealth…
You really don’t have a leg to stand on in your thesis that mesmers are “the new perma-stealth DP thief”. Thieves still have more stealth, still can perma-stealth, and mesmers can’t even get close.

The only part about mesmer stealth that is excessive is the fact that with The Pledge (torch trait), you can pop Decoy, The Prestige, and MI, then pop The Prestige again 13s later (before you lose stealth), putting your stealth at 28s, then pop The Prestige again before that runs out, putting you at 34s, then pop decoy before that runs out, putting you at 40s, then pop The Prestige again to get up to 46s of continuous stealth. That’s pretty excessive (nevermind that thieves can get 50,60,70,…,indefinite stealth).
That’s not because of PU though, that’s because of The Pledge being bugged to add more cooldown reduction than it’s supposed to…which I agree with you needs to be changed.

And The Pledge doesn’t change the fact that the Dom/Illusions/Chaos build you described can only spawn one clone in stealth per 32 seconds, and only when he starts decoy.

It also doesn’t change the fact that if you ever do see a mesmer popping clones without coming out of stealth, you can just kill the clones. It’s not like it hurts you to kill them.

Tldr please

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Look at the build. You can’t create clones with dodge, because that trait is in the Dueling line, and the build you described by definition must have Illusions, Chaos and Domination as its specs.

Doesn’t help that blink and decoy are the mesmer’s stunbreaks.
If he did as you say, he’s got no cc mitigation left.

So are we going to continue to ignore the 10 seconds of stealth as I mentioned here lol? I’m happy to say I’m wrong about having clones on dodge; doesn’t change the counter-play aspect or reset aspect I brought up continuously here.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

The build you’re talking about can’t do all the things you described.
From your description, here is the only viable build that fits all the criteria:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAsfRlsnha0YZawRNwtGLnGkZL22MIDwCWOaE6+3B-TZRCABTt/Q7lBE+IAAwDAwiTBAA

But, this build can’t create “3-4 decoys/clones” while in stealth, nevermind that 4 clones is impossible, since you cap at 3, and there’s no value to creating a clone in stealth and then overwriting it. (and apharma already mentioned the silliness of saying that illusions can be waiting in stealth. I mean, seriously?)

Plus, perma-stealth is impossible on mesmer. In fact, the very most you can get with the build described is 50% stealth uptime. That’s a far cry from the 100% you can (still) get on a thief.

“Oh you got downed but the mes is trying to stomp? Dun worry; invul stomp ftw”
Um, how often do you survive a stomp in a duel? Like, ever? Some classes don’t even have a way to interrupt the stomp. Mesmers don’t need to pop distortion to stomp in a duel, they can just let you use your one-shot interrupt and then come back for you, and there’s not a kitten thing you can do about it.

“Oh you got rallied but are running; all good greatsword power dps is one of the best in da game!”
No it isn’t? Greatsword is great burst damage, but only up close, and combined with shatters. The AA is really weak, and it doesn’t help you stop a fleeing opponent. Landing the iBerserker is their best shot to try to get some cripple on you, but a fleeing opponent can get out of that pretty quick.
This mesmer is slooow. His only swiftness source is from stealth, and not reliably.
His only immobilize is short-range, his only cripple (berserker) is easy to dodge on the run, and his only stuns are from his mantra, which is on cooldown because he used it during the fight, and his f4 shatter, which can’t hit a fleeing target. He probably can’t catch you, and he can’t kill you from range if you keep running.

Your post isn’t just an exaggeration, it doesn’t even fit the mechanics of the class.

I’ll tell you what we should be telling everyone who comes in here to whine after they get rocked by a mesmer in a duel:

If you can’t be kittened to learn the mechanics of the class you’re annoyed by, don’t come into that class’s forum to whine about it.

Do your research first. Play a mesmer, study the mesmer, figure out what it was you didn’t understand about the fight you just lost. Because it’s clear from your post, OP, that you haven’t a clue.

Do you not know how to greatsword 1/auto cancel? lol

AlphatheWhite.9351:

docMed.7692:

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

Exaggerations that misstate the basic mechanics of the class aren’t worth the bits it took to post them.

Your “disclaimer” is just a meaningless way to try to cover your ignorance.

Exaggerated or not, your complaint is meaningless if it doesn’t fit with what’s possible.

Do have a good week, though.

What did I miss exactly here? A Mesmer can mass >> phantasm >> double dodge and blink/wrack; which they can do at any point during the 10 seconds they spend in stealth. It is correct though that any clones/etc in stealth will break; that’s hardly the issue though.

Rizigmar.2681:

Lets face it, the only thing Thief is better than mesmer is in the mobility department. Everything else Mesmer does better. There’s nothing like summoning Phantasms from ranged and chunking the enemy or blowing their dodge while still being in stealth. D/P Thief stealth is on demand true, but can be interrupted unless they carry black powder to blast it. The usual D/P BP+HS combo however can be interrupted and can punish the thief pretty heavily. Meanwhile mesmers pretty much get free passes to one shot almost any zerker build just because of the extended stealth durations and rewards being in stealth with really strong defensive boons, on top of that, invulns and blinds.

Short story/ Mesmers are Thieves 2.0, though with lower mobility.

This is a good summary of my thoughts; although I would still say thieves are comparable in a lot of departments.

Yo everyone needs to chill out a bit here, I stated outright; Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion. Happy Monday and have a good week all

So Anet nerfed DP thief for spending far too much time in stealth and then later gave mesmer the ability to reset/engage as they see in literally any build (condi or shatter/power). I don’t mind the dps; that’s fine - but guess what is really hard to counter - 3-4 decoys/clones waiting in stealth with a mesmer in perma stealth waiting for his wrack to be up and blink/1 shot you. Oh you survived that blink/shat/boon clear? All good, the mes still has a few insta stuns on demand in case he didn’t wreck you. Oh you got downed but the mes is trying to stomp? Dun worry; invul stomp ftw. Oh you got rallied but are running; all good greatsword power dps is one of the best in da game!

Obviously this is an exaggerated opinion, but my god - the amount of stealth mes’ get now makes it literally impossible to counter-play in any respectable way - it’s a guessing game, and most importantly, it’s really boring to play against.

Same, still not working - R I P

nyckolag.2394:

Hi DocMed – I’m not too sure about your level of experience in this game, or whether you’re new or not. But let me list a few tips when fighting SA thieves:

• Try knocking them out of their Shadow Refuge!
• When they stealth, count to two and then dodge! Most bad SA thieves will try to backstab you during that time!
• Always rotate to mitigate your chances of being backstabbed!

Hope these basic tips help when fighting enemy thieves!

Regards

Just read the thread and you would actually have an idea.

Hey Phoebe, settle down a bit there; this is one topic of a sub topic regarding a specific game mode that’s in beta and will also be released alongside an additional class and an entirely different meta. The point of this post was to have a simple discussion, not flame each other because you simply disagree and think we all should ’l2p’. Let’s not kid around either, we all have 5000+ hours (as I do myself w/ 2,000+ on thief alone) & 8 80’s and that is hardly a metric for ’pvp extraordinaire’. Thanks for the constructive discussion, k-app-uh.

SobeSoul.6910:

BlackBeard.2873:

SobeSoul.6910:

SA thieves are fine imo. And not saying that because I play one. I don’t. It’s just I don’t find them particularly hard to defend against when I know they are around.

While many builds can kill them or survive indefinitely, it has the same problem as yaks in wvw do - there is literally nothing you can do to prevent an SA thief from killing your defending npcs.

I didn’t find this true when fighting them on my engie. I think certain classes are better equipped with dealing with SA thieves in this particular mode. Area cleave with some a few decent burst skills seems to be able to deal with them as long as you have some clue how thieves operate.

It’s not an issue of 1v1; it’s simply the fact that thief can ignore you as an opponent in 1v1 and kill the guards. Thief pops up, nukes guard a bit (guard doesn’t reset), you nuke thief, thief resets, pops out few seconds later with full hp, rinse/repeat. It’s especially a pain when the thief is PD condi running dodge-roll caltrops with carrion amu (20k+ hp).

Or they could just pull out the nerf bat and finally make it so SA thieves don’t have healing, pulsing condi clear, and initiative regen all in one tree...., but we all know SA thieves are very strong in WvW; however, they never truly mattered in sPvP as stealthing (rather than holding a point) was detrimental. This new game mode obviously changes that a bit though. The other difficulty of these suggestions though (such as stealth reveal), is we have no idea what the balance/meta will be like for HoT.

I’ll keep this preamble short since overall I’ve actually been rather pleasantly surprised by Stronghold (the game mode is fun and forces a lot of fights, which I like!). Please also keep in mind the game mode is still young and I’m sure there will eventually be a more refined meta to counter some of these topics:

:::::::::::::::::::::::

For Supply, I think it would be more interesting to have supply max carry capacity increase as the time elapsed in the match increases. For example, at the start of the game, max supply capacity is 1; at 10:00, max supply capacity is 2; at 5:00 max supply capacity is 3. My main recommendation for this is the change overall doesn’t impact early strategies that are already developing/in place from the beta, but it slows the snowballing a bit that can occur if a team wipes the opposing team at the start of the map (it’s hard for groups to recover once you get put on your heels).

For the Trebuchet, at the moment it feels a little unnecessary. Teams have already begun to simply ignore mid at the start of a match and it also takes a good 15-20 seconds to get to Treb at the start of the match, whereas it takes around 5-6 seconds to get to a mid fight. I think overall this is OK, but Treb. somewhere needs to have a bit of a buff in usefulness: My suggestion here is to make the destructive terrain reveal advantages for the team using their treb. For example, in the middle of the map (at supply) there are two obstructions, one on each side, that simply need to be destroyed in order to treb mid from each side respectively. A further use here with the destructible buildings would be to not only have them remove the obstruction for treb to hit mid, but for the rubble of each building to also turn into a ramp that starts from the outside of the ring and leads up to the edge of the middle ring wall. This would give the trebbing team a bit of a buff in allowing their side to have an elevation to pick middle with (think zerk long bow ranger, nade engi, rifle war, etc).

For Stealth, I’m speaking primarily to shadow art thieves here, I think overall the game mode could use a bit of counter play to. As it stands, even when I run zerker or condi ranger with sic’ em (and I’ve even tried having reduced shouts cooldown), stopping a shadow arts thieves from annihilating all guards is impossible even with two defending as they can simply reset any time they choose, re-open on the guards, and continue to widdle them down. My suggestion here is to introduce the WvW stealth-reveal trap (perhaps they can be purchased for accumulated supply runs) or maybe an orb that spawns later in the match and gives the channeller a buff of ’true sight’ for a period of time would help here. I’m not saying this is completely broken, but it seems rather strong for the offensive lane to have a SA thief solo’ing guards without repercussion and also stealth running/escorting NPC’s.

For the Lord’s Room, at the moment I think each NPC’s numbers (health, damage, abilities, etc) are all balanced and the mechanics overall solid. In other words, a team of 5 falling back to defend their lord typically could unless the attacking team actually had spawned heroes, etc (the balance from my experience felt right in this regard). Nonetheless, I think one additional wrinkle for defending would be really cool in introducing switches that can be found in the WvW jumping puzzle and/or in AC. This again would be an accumulated cost of supply, but having spike traps pop up and/or swinging logs come down and strike the attackers (if you have the supply to support it) would make the defenders of each lane have a bit more to do than simply mow down spawning NPC’s and try to do supply runs with typically mis-timed bomber/archer spawnings since the attacking lane will usually be out of sync with the defenders in this regard.

Anyways, that’s my suggestions; let me know what you all think.

I think the main concern here is 99% of these suggestions are already widely known to the community and/or have already been posted and/or are just bad. If you’re new to the game, just stop for a moment and recognize that the balance has largely not changed in any significant manner for years... years. That being said, we usually will get behind any good ideas.

Assassin X.8573:

Rendering a video, about 3-4hrs left, but im at work so i wont be able to upload it until i get home.

Contains wvw duels and spvp duels with a rank 80 dragon legendary champion.

A rank 80? Dang, does he have a legendary weapon too? Crafted from pure skill?