Guild Wars 2

Nobody cares about feature packs. They want more content.

Flytrap.8075:

ipan.4356:

We want more content.

That’s the bottom line.

I’ll understand if you can’t deliver – but you should tell us now.

Stop giving us the runaround.

Either you can deliver more content (new maps, new dungeons, new class, new weapons, new playable race, new skills) or you cannot deliver more content.

We want an expansion, not necessarily more LS (not to say that LS should be abandoned – just that it does not substitute for the content we want).

So, that’s where we stand – either tell us more content is coming, or tell us it isn’t coming.

It’s a very simple question to answer.

This is the real reason why they won’t divulge what’s currently in development; they want you to think that whatever it is that you actually want is already in the pipeline when in reality their main focuses are low-hanging fruit that they can sell as “Features” and the ever-so-lovely Gem Store updates.

I have a hunch that if the community knew what they were actually working on, there would be a mass exodus.

Exactly.

If they won’t tell us what’s in the pipe – then it’s because there isn’t anything, really.

Anything we want, anyway.

More LS I’m sure – but it won’t open any new maps or dungeons, or anything else people want.

Elsdragon.5109:

ipan.4356:

Mark Katzbach.9084:

Most of the items you listed off that aren’t in this update are because they are content. This is not a content update, this is a feature pack. Content updates usually, but not exclusively, take the forum of living world updates or festivals.

You realize almost no one actually cares about that other stuff, right?

We want more content.

That’s the bottom line.

I’ll understand if you can’t deliver – but you should tell us now.

Stop giving us the runaround.

Either you can deliver more content (new maps, new dungeons, new class, new weapons, new playable race, new skills) or you cannot deliver more content.

We want an expansion, not necessarily more LS (not to say that LS should be abandoned – just that it does not substitute for the content we want).

So, that’s where we stand – either tell us more content is coming, or tell us it isn’t coming.

It’s a very simple question to answer.

Please do not act or speak like you’re speaking for the entirety of the player base. If that is your (and possibly your friends’) opinion, say so as well.

Actually, it’s obvious from the reaction of the player base.

Entire Guilds quitting, people leaving the game. Uproar on the forums.

The number of people who are happy with this game are in the minority.

I think they put all their eggs into LS for one reason: the production costs of LS are much cheaper than developing any other kind of content.

In short, I believe they are cutting corners.

It’s not going to suffice.

People will leave – sales will dry up. Servers will shut down.

It will probably take years – event he worst MMO’s hang on for a long time.

But it’s not going to grow, it’s not going to expand. It’s going to fight a war of attrition and bleeding over a long time.

Dusty Moon.4382:

People need to lighten up – this ‘Entitled’ mentality of posters on this forum does not help their cause with the developers.

It’s actually people like you who are doing the most harm.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

Most of the items you listed off that aren’t in this update are because they are content. This is not a content update, this is a feature pack. Content updates usually, but not exclusively, take the forum of living world updates or festivals.

You realize almost no one actually cares about that other stuff, right?

We want more content.

That’s the bottom line.

I’ll understand if you can’t deliver – but you should tell us now.

Stop giving us the runaround.

Either you can deliver more content (new maps, new dungeons, new class, new weapons, new playable race, new skills) or you cannot deliver more content.

We want an expansion, not necessarily more LS (not to say that LS should be abandoned – just that it does not substitute for the content we want).

So, that’s where we stand – either tell us more content is coming, or tell us it isn’t coming.

It’s a very simple question to answer.

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

It is what it is. They said it, just repeating what A.Net said earlier. You can ignore their posts and what they say, but that was out there and that was said BEFORE LS1 was out so that was like 6 months into the game.

What deal? People paid for the game already, the deal is done. You make it sound like there is some contract – you bought the game as it was, all the stuff they had added in is extra. The LS is free content not paid content. Would it be nice to have an expansion – yes, but not if it ignores the rest of the story A.Net is spinning out right now. I am really interested to see where it will go.

I’m talking about if people leave the game, revenue dry’s up, servers shut down and merge.

You know, like what happens to 99% of all MMO’s.

Yes, it’s happened to most MMOs….but it hasn’t happened here. There’s a reason for that.

Anet is making enough money as it stands now to keep the servers running for a long long time, and that’s without China.

At some point they must have done something right, no?

We’ll see – in the end, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

All I’m pointing out is what I’ve seen from experience.

MMO’s that ignore what their customers want usually tank – and Anet appears, to may of us, to be taking this same path.

This is all an attempt to avert that from happening.

@xev

I honestly believe the WK’s contribute about 80% of the toxicity to the forums.

They always turn what would otherwise be a productive conversation about the game into a competition of who can prove wrong doing and point fingers.

They escalate. They throw gasoline on the fire.

I’ll admit that about 20% of the toxicity is probably from people who are rude and insulting – but that’s about it.

The other 80% comes from WK’s.

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

It is what it is. They said it, just repeating what A.Net said earlier. You can ignore their posts and what they say, but that was out there and that was said BEFORE LS1 was out so that was like 6 months into the game.

What deal? People paid for the game already, the deal is done. You make it sound like there is some contract – you bought the game as it was, all the stuff they had added in is extra. The LS is free content not paid content. Would it be nice to have an expansion – yes, but not if it ignores the rest of the story A.Net is spinning out right now. I am really interested to see where it will go.

I’m talking about if people leave the game, revenue dry’s up, servers shut down and merge.

You know, like what happens to 99% of all MMO’s.

How? They have your money. This is not a sub game but a free to play game. Their business model is based on the fact that you bought the game to play it. You don’t need the CS, that is just extra revenue. People really need to understand that – this game is B2P, meaning buy the box play forever (or as long as the servers are up).

You don’t understand at all. GW1 is still going – where is their revenue coming from?

You really don’t understand how business works, do you?

Without revenue, the company doesn’t see it as profitable anymore, and will shut it down.

You have to have revenue to continue operations.

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

It is what it is. They said it, just repeating what A.Net said earlier. You can ignore their posts and what they say, but that was out there and that was said BEFORE LS1 was out so that was like 6 months into the game.

What deal? People paid for the game already, the deal is done. You make it sound like there is some contract – you bought the game as it was, all the stuff they had added in is extra. The LS is free content not paid content. Would it be nice to have an expansion – yes, but not if it ignores the rest of the story A.Net is spinning out right now. I am really interested to see where it will go.

I’m talking about if people leave the game, revenue dry’s up, servers shut down and merge.

You know, like what happens to 99% of all MMO’s.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

LS is pretty good – I enjoyed some parts of it, but not all. Perhaps my biggest disappointment with LS was that many of the events ended up being dominated by the zerg once again, but that’s a hard thing to deal with. When something like LS events happen, lots of people show up for them. I don’t really fault Anet for that, because no one has figured that one out yet.

But, it bothers me that people treat the LS as if it’s a substitute for the real meat of ‘new content’ – it’s not.

As a couple people have pointed out – LS is NOT new maps (well, there was Dry Top…but it’s so tiny), it’s not a new class, it’s not new dungeons, or a new playable race.

In short, it’s not an expansion.

And that is the meat of the issue – no expansion.

I got no beef with the LS itself really – but I do with people who try to pull the wool over my eyes and convince me that LS is an acceptable replacement for ‘expansion’ grade material.

It’s not.

Great list.

I would add: more permanent content, like maps, dungeons, classes, weapons, skills.

I suggest a game wide boycott of the gem store until they provide us with what we’ve been asking for.

Vote with your wallet.

Look – I’ve played both open world dungeons, and instanced in a number of different games (from anarchy online to WoW to warhammer online) and I am a fan of both.

I have nothing against instances.

But, according to what I’ve heard about development – dungeons are getting NO love.

None. Zero. Nothing whatsoever.

So, thinking over this, I came up with the idea that they could at least be made open world, which is a hail mary to at least make the content available and accessible to everyone (even though you’d still probably need at least a small group, unless you’re good at soloing champs and legends).

Yes, there is the possibility of zergs trivializing the content – but isn’t it already trivial? I mean, when was the last time you actually found a dungeon challenging? People sell themselves as dungeon tour guides on the LFG tool. Isn’t it obvious? Dungeons are just tours. They are just there for you to farm money and tokens – if you need them, and there are other ways to get money.

So I’m not sure I even understand the desire to defend dungeons as they are – they’re largely terrible.

At least when they become open world, they are now part of the game that the dev’s said they are still working on – the Open World.

And, at least they are a little easier for all players to access (what’s going to happen when almost everyone abandons dungeons – because they know that the dev’s have abandoned them??? No one will be able to do dungeons anymore, because it will be impossible to find a group).

I’m not saying that making them open is absolutely the most ideal way to handle it – I’m saying that given the circumstances, it might be the only way to save them at all.

Izaya.2906:

ipan.4356:

I keep hearing about how dungeons are being dropped as a development focus for Open World (presumably Living Story – seeing as how new maps are off the table as well) content.

Well, why not integrate existing dungeons into the Open World then, as a way to make them more accessible, and remove the problem of them being forgotten content?

What is a dungeon, really? It’s just an instance

You could remove the instancing part, and the cut-scenes (alternatively, you could have something similar to a Vista at key points in the open world dungeon, that play a video that brings people up to date on what’s happened here before).

All of these of course would be post-storymode.

It’s an easy fix to incorporating something you’ve abandoned into the world as a whole.

If you’re going to focus on Open World, then make everything Open World – don’t just abandon it.

If I could make a poll, I would.

It’s an instance where you have relative control on most factors in your party where you get rewarded better according to how you perform. It maybe faceroll right now but it is 100x less faceroll than open world pve or the need to organize 100’s of players and have your success depend whether or not the zerg of players can follow simple instructions.

I’d rather have dungeons die a slow horrible death of no development than to dumb it down more to tagging to get credit or be forced to depend on alot of more people for success in clearing the content..

Question: If you’d rather “have dungeons die a slow horrible death” – then why do you actually care if they became open world or not?

Nothing.

/15chars

nexxe.7081:

The problem is, that skills are tied directly with weapons. The only thing i can think of, is letting us switch out weapon skills just like our utility skills, if they didn’t want to add more weapons. As for traits, it has to be balanced. They can’t just add more without disrupting everything else. PvE and PvP would need to be balanced too. Conditions, Might, Retaliation, etc., would all need to be balanced also. It’s not as easy as it sounds. lol.

I believe in a little trick I like to call ‘overbalancing’ – you make sure that every class has at least one (preferably two) extremely powerful builds.

Builds that make them feel like gods.

Then – once you’ve established that as your baseline, you begin to work on everything else.

That way, no one can complain that ‘other’ classes (one’s they don’t play) are more powerful than their own – everyone is ridiculously OP – just in different ways.

Examples:

Remove the endurance cost to dodge from Thieves (and of course all Vigor traits).

Rangers can have an additional pet, and can swap them without a CD (or even have multiple pets out at once).

Mesmers – Illusions are no longer per target, and individual illusions can be targeted for shatter skills, rather than in batches. Also, skills that create multiple illusions at once

Guardians – Toggle virtues: give your virtue to another player (this works similarly to activating a virtue now, except that it transfers to a single ally, and can instantly be switched back to the Guardian with no CD). More effective wards, particularly concerning ground targeting (direction, facing, size, etc.) and duration – as well as type and variety.

And so on…….

Once every class feels like this, then you go back and look at everything else – while the playerbase is happily blowing each other up.

You slowly bring all other skills and traits up to par. In some cases, you trim a few skills back (did that Mesmer skill you let summon 4 illusions feel just a tad too powerful….scale it back to 3). And so on.

Players will be happy to be equally unbalanced all around – while the dev team just bought themselves lots and lots of time to really drill down into the details of combat and make everything else just as cool.

I call this overbalancing, and it works so much better than the cautious “let’s not rock the boat” way of balancing things.

Sometimes, you need stupidly bold ideas like this to shake things up.

Palador.2170:

ipan.4356:

New damage types would increase diversity in a game where only DPS matters.

Damage already comes from a couple different sources – although to be honest, there is really only front loaded/direct and over time damage.

Just diversify how damage is dealt, by dividing, or creating, more damage types that function in new, interesting ways, and you have build diversity in a game where aggro and healing aren’t important.

Armor Piercing. (Example: “This attack ignores up to 100 Defense, based on level”)

And yes, we could use some new character building stuff (skills, traits, weapons) to play with.

Wow, I hadn’t thought of that.

Armor piercing would be an excellent additional damage type.

I heard that Oculus Rift will be released in May.

New damage types would increase diversity in a game where only DPS matters.

Damage already comes from a couple different sources – although to be honest, there is really only front loaded/direct and over time damage.

Just diversify how damage is dealt, by dividing, or creating, more damage types that function in new, interesting ways, and you have build diversity in a game where aggro and healing aren’t important.

Epic

/15chars

What the hell does ice water have to do with ALS?

If you want to donate to charity – then just donate. I do it all the time at the supermarket, online, and I even give money to bums.

This ice bucket thing is stupid. Just give money if you have it, if you don’t, then don’t.

Stop pouring water on yourself for attention.

Or any new skills.

I had a thought today, about weapon skills.

What if, each weapon had a pop up menu like utility skills, but each slot has 2 other (so a total of 3) choices.

So:

Skill 1 (3 total choices)
Skill 2 (3 choices)
Skill 3 (3 choices)

…for every weapon, for each class. Basically, you get to customize your weapon’s exact load out, from a small pool of 3 skills per skill slot. These are all still heavily based on the theme of the weapon, but perhaps each skill synergizes better with different trait builds (for example, one might be great for a Power build, another for a Condition build, and the third better for a Bunker build……)

narwhalsbend.7059:

You will never see player-usable airships. Deal with it.
Once again, go back to WoW if you want “mounts”.

Inorite? What do they think this is, Archeage?

It’s called being short staffed.

Their should be someone who communicates with us and is up to date on everything the dev’s are doing.

But I get the feeling they aren’t in a hiring mood right now.

Maybe because gem store sales suck. Because the game sucks. If the game was doing well, sales would be up, and they could hire this kind of liaison.

One more little clue that the game, and the company, are failing.

Csele.1647:

So are we ever going to get any of this ?
————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

After the end of the tournaments, the game will be the same since it was released!
Players really want:
New Dungeons/Fractals
New Dungeon/Fractal Rewards
PvP modes/maps
Guild Halls (GvG)
New Legendaries
New Weapon and Armor skins (No RNG)
Precursor Crafting

---

Its easy to see that Anet wont stop with the livingstory , So this means we are never going to see anything of that list ?? because of the lack of time to develop all the original main areas of the game ? maybe confirming that you no longer are interested in those areas would put an end to all this endless forum rage and complains .

Except that they can’t tell you any of that, because if they did, you’d stop buying gems.

Shhhhhhhhh

GenoUnknown.7504:

poisonality.8972:

what could really cause problems is if you train a mob from level 80 areas to a level 65 area lol

classic EQ, the giants.. my god, when one of those got pulled 2 far..it was chaos

I remember once upon a time in WoW, me and some other alliance pulled the Elite T-Rex from Un’goro Crater all the way to Crossroads (Level 60 was max at the time, so this was eons ago), and it wrecked havoc for a good hour or two before the horde finally killed it and drove us out of the crossroads. It was pretty awesome.

And everyone has great memories of it happening

This is not a bad thing.

To be honest, I don’t really have any faith in MMO developers any more – I’ve been burned out by them for a long time.

Kind of hoping CIG (Star Citizen) can turn that around, but we’ll see.

nexxe.7081:

@ipan, i understand what you mean about this, and your other thread about seamless world, but it’s just not feasible. The game world would have to be built from the ground up. It’s just not going to happen. It would be like taking GW1 right now and trying to turn it into GW2. It would literally take years to do something like that, and that’s only if they focused on doing that and neglecting everything else. This thread is pretty much a moot point.

Yeah, I have no expectation that anything like this will ever be implemented in this game.

Start with two maps, say Queensdale and Kessex (for example) and merge them into a single, seamless map.

Build new things in the area that is currently a ‘divider’ (like new dungeons, mini dungeons, etc.)

Slowly use ‘smudge’ to soften these dividers, so they are not straight lines anymore.

Repeat this process bit by bit until the entire world is a single, seamless map.

dlonie.6547:

No please. ESO did this, and it is the only reason I didn’t switch already.

Having mobs of people running through the dungeon ahead of you, behind you, aggroing everything, walking into boss fights where the boss is at 2% health, killing a boss that respawns in 20s…. shudders

No thanks.

I’ve addressed this.

The problem is created by too many people clumped together, zerging the content.

By making the dungeons 5x larger (with multiple entrances from different directions), and adding 2-3 times as many bosses, you naturally spread people out with little effort.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I dunno about this.

I mean the thread. It seems like another time where you put forth your opinion and it must be correct, it must be the best answer, and anyone else has obviously bad ideas.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to turn Dungeons into fully-open things. For one, the limitation of five players is what allows specific setpieces or challenges to even be possible inside the dungeon. It’s not possible to create a spot in the dungeon where open-world isn’t going to make it a bucket of cheese with a side of tortilla chips . . . without making it like it’s practically a dungeon’s current functionality anyway.

Open-world dungeons have been done before. Someone brought up EverQuest . . . where it was NOT fine. They did instanced dungeons later – that was also NOT fine.

Why was it not fine open-world? Because farming existed in those games. People who just camped at the boss respawns and would kill them until everyone got what they needed. Or at side-rooms where things which dropped nice items were, and kill til they got what they wanted. As awesome as my time was doing Old Sebilis or Estate of Unrest, there was an incredible focus on loot and earnings.

If Dungeons were turned into Open-World events they’d wind up like the World Boss Grand Tour – dozens of people picking a time to drop on them at once and complete en masse. And if you do what you can to limit that . . . you might as well just go back to the original plan of dungeons and just rework the challenges instead.

(Also, UO’s dungeons were mostly a joke. There was rarely reasons to go delving in most of them.)

What if every zone had 5 dungeons, and every dungeon had 7 bosses (and was like 5 times larger)?

I believe that the issues you bring up – boss camping, etc. are a result of dungeons being way too small, and there being far too few of them.

1) When each zone has many dungeons, people spread out between them.
2) When the dungeons are very large, and have multiple ‘bosses’ – say 5+ – then even those people who are at the same dungeon are far more spread out within it.

Nobody likes the company policy.

tolunart.2095:

I’m not the one complaining and making demands that no one here has the authority to grant.

No, what you’re doing is attempting to dimmunize and trivialize people’s legitimate issues with this game.

You are antagonizing well meaning customers who have serious complaints – to the detriment of the community.

tolunart.2095:

I never played Everquest, Ultima Online and so on, back in the day. But from what I’ve heard, in the beginning everything was open world, and it caused a lot of problems. Instances were created and utilized for a reason, and while it’s not a perfect system, it’s better than a free-for all. Anet may be experimenting with a step backwards by tweaking old ideas about open world content, but that doesn’t mean they should disregard everything that their counterparts at other games have learned over the last twelve years or so.

It’s trading one set of problems for a different set.

I liked open world dungeons a lot.

The two issues I saw in them were:

Trains. People would aggro monsters, and then run – sometimes simply out of inattention, and sometimes maliciously – and those trains would catch everyone else off guard.

This was often hilarious – as people running down corridors would yell, ‘Train!’ as they passed, to warn people what was coming.

The solution to trains is to design enemies to be a little smarter. By controlling how far they’ll follow someone, or what areas of the dungeon they are even capable of accessing. Basically, you make it so trains simply don’t happen (enemies break off after a certain distance and return to their post).

The other issue is respawn timers and zerging everything to death.

This is an overall problem in encounter design, and already is an issue with current dungeon design, even in a closed 5 man instance.

People already gun down dungeon bosses in a few minutes.

My point being: this state of things is already the case, so it’s not like making them open would change anything.

Dungeons, and their bosses, are seriously not challenging.

The answer to this is also encounter design – change how enemies behave and what they can do.

Next, make the actual dungeons larger – increase the size by 5-10 times. Make them vast complexes that stretch into the mountainside and under the ground.

Multiple levels and stories with many different entrances from different directions.

Several different “bosses” in different sections of the dungeon.

This helps spread players out a lot more, as different groups of people would be doing different areas for different rewards (or just for fun).

Morsus.5106:

No. Please. I like my 5 man instances. If we make them open world, they’ll just become zerg fests.

That’s possible – about as possible as any particular event or champ becomes a zerg fest now.

Which is to say it happens, but all the time I’ve wandered around Tyria, I’ve found that many zones actually resemble the ‘5 man content’ you say you want.

Not always, and of course, it’s not absolutely enforceable – there’s no way to actually stop more people from showing up.

But I walk around all parts of Tyria, and I can say that there is often only a few people in any given zone at any given time.

Meaning, that these Open World Dungeons wouldn’t necessarily be a zerg fest – it’s not guaranteed – though sometimes that would happen.

I just don’t see how it’s really any different from any other open world event that people like to farm.

I suppose you are lamenting the loss of any instanced content – I am guessing you don’t like open world, and what you actually prefer to play is a limited multi-player game, like Diablo 3 or Vindictus – but you want it in GW2.

I understand. I like that kind of gameplay too.

But these dungeons aren’t getting any love from Anet – so this seems like the next best solution.

DeathPanel.8362:

ipan.4356:

I understand some of your issues Donari – but ask yourself, is this preferable to Dungeon development being completely abandoned (as appears to be the case)?

I think that Open World Dungeons would be far more manageable for the dev team – in this scenario where they don’t plan to iterate further on them.

I rather dungeons are totally abandoned than it bleed through into other streams. The current dungeons are fine for what they are used for. (Mats, Tokens, Gold)

So you’re ok with dungeons remaining nothing more than a place to farm?

Jahroots.6791:

No, if anything I’d argue that this game needs more types of small group content. There are plenty of options for zerg-style play for those who enjoy it.

So, in everyone’s mind, Open World = zerg fest.

I can definitely see the connection, but I was not under the assumption that this was always a given.

Seeing the number of dungeons in the game, I would assume that there would be people at any number of them at any given time – I actually don’t expect any of them to be constantly overrun by a zerg, though this is possible.

Wandering around the open world – I occasionally find zergs. But not as often as in WvWvW.

The feeling I’m getting from people, though, is that the primary reason they don’t like this idea is because they like small-party content, without the lag and general confusion that comes with a zerg.

Like Vindictus or Diablo 3.

Now, let’s just assume that ‘dungeon’ and ‘instanced content’ are one and the same (excluding Living World for now.

Anet has said that they plan on abandoning dungeons for the time being.

Dungeons, as they are, are in terrible shape. They’re not terribly fun, and are primarily used as a means of farming gold or tokens for dungeon skins. People repeat them, one dungeon after another chained together.

This isn’t fun content at all – at least not for me (and I know a lot of people don’t like it).

So, we have suggested many ways to try to improve upon this – including redesigning enemies, and even redesigning the dungeons themselves (make them larger, more varied, more interesting, etc.)

But Anet has made it fairly clear that they want nothing to do with dungeons (or ‘instanced content’) – in other words, they are certainly NOT going to add any MORE instanced content, if they don’t even want to work on what’s already there.

So, given this situation – do you think it would be better to open the dungeons that already exist to open world PvE, because at least then they fall under the category of Open World, which IS something Anet is working on, so they might at least receive some attention finally?

At least this way, they’re not rotting in the cellar, which is what I’m getting at.

Because as is, nothing’s happening to fix the issues in dungeons.

I’d rather open them up – because then the rewards are more accessible, and they fall under the purview of what Anet has said they are working on.

Rukh.9287:

This sounds like a horrible terrible very bad no good idea. Also I don’t like it much. The benefit of instances is you can control the content that people get hit with, you can make a scripted path with interesting events and interactions. Making it open-world makes it so you have no idea who is there or how many. Suddenly these assets have to be always loaded in case people show up, whether one person stumbles by, or 100 people decide to go smash the place. No bad.

They should make more instanced events, just they don’t all need to be in caves. Implement “dungeons” out in the middle of towns. You can make a “dungeon” which is an instanced defense of Ebonhawke against insurgents for instance.

All of these of course searchable in the dungeon finder. Mini instances. Difficult but rewarding instances. Moar instances!

Have you heard of Vindictus?

tolunart.2095:

ipan.4356:

And you’re not helping things at all.

You know what will also cause the dev’s to lose their jobs? Being laid off because the game goes broke.

That’s amusing.

This game doesn’t have a monthly sub option. Most of the people complaining here don’t spend money on the game. Most of the people spending money on the game are not complaining.

Your arguments are not going to have any effect on Anet/NCSoft revenue, and therefore have little chance of having an effect on anyone who isn’t responding here. That includes both the people spending money on the game and the bosses who make the rules.

You know what’s amusing? That you think you’re helping anyone.

You know what you’re really doing? Throwing gasoline on flames.

tolunart.2095:

oshilator.4681:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I’ll start a separate thread shortly to discussion one of the potential ideas for how we could help provide at least a bit more of a clear picture similar to CDI to help guide and discuss topics while staying within the company policies on communication development.

I’ll also make sure your feedback is passed up the chain from those who gave feedback on that specific policy.

Thanks folks!

“Up the chain”? You’re the Game Director. How does the chain not start & end with you?

I’m pretty sure Colin doesn’t own NCSoft. His title doesn’t have “executive” in it either, so he’s probably not on the board of directors or anything like that. In fact there are probably several links in the chain above him and below “NCSoft CEO.”

The devs make the game, they don’t make company policy.

I can give you lots of examples where ‘company policy’ destroyed a game.

tolunart.2095:

ipan.4356:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I’ll start a separate thread shortly to discussion one of the potential ideas for how we could help provide at least a bit more of a clear picture similar to CDI to help guide and discuss topics while staying within the company policies on communication development.

I’ll also make sure your feedback is passed up the chain from those who gave feedback on that specific policy.

Thanks folks!

We don’t want you to “stay within company policies” – we want you to change the policy and communicate the direction you’re going in more.

So, you want the devs to get fired.

When someone with greater authority says “we will do it this way,” you do it this way, whether you agree with your boss or not. Telling the boss “I don’t care what you want me to do, I’m going to do it this other way,” will lead to disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment.

To put the dev comment in plain English, “I’ll tell my boss that you are not satisfied with the way things are done, but we have to do it this way until he says otherwise.”

What you want is irrelevant, you don’t sign the devs’ paychecks, and you don’t get to give them orders.

And you’re not helping things at all.

You know what will also cause the dev’s to lose their jobs? Being laid off because the game goes broke.

They are working on creating a list of things they can’t talk about.

In principle, it all sounds good, except this part:

Per company policy (see Mike O’Brien’s post for his summary of ArenaNet’s dev communcation policy) we wouldn’t be able to discuss what is currently in development, or what progress we’re making on it.

I understand some of your issues Donari – but ask yourself, is this preferable to Dungeon development being completely abandoned (as appears to be the case)?

I think that Open World Dungeons would be far more manageable for the dev team – in this scenario where they don’t plan to iterate further on them.

ColinJohanson.2394:

ipan.4356:

We don’t want you to “stay within company policies” – we want you to change the policy and communicate the direction you’re going in more.

Yup as I said, I’ll pass that feedback up the chain!

Cool, that’s a start.

Thanks Colin, you’ve been helpful today.

+2 cookies for you.

One of my problems is with the ‘recovery on landing’ aspect that is actually more of a hindrance the larger the character.

I’m sure you’ve noticed, that when you strafe left or right, and then let go of the button, your character does a little ‘sway’ to show weight being shifted from one direction to another.

This makes taking really small steps (something that is important in a lot of jumping puzzles) really hard. It makes precision jumping harder.

Those little animations that make character movement look realistic (the footwork) actually make jumping puzzles harder.

That alone wouldn’t be so bad, because once you understand it, you can work around it – but combine that with the camera issues that often get in the way of objects, and it can make some puzzles really frustrating.

All of these problems are heightened by the larger models, like Norn and Charr.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I’ll start a separate thread shortly to discussion one of the potential ideas for how we could help provide at least a bit more of a clear picture similar to CDI to help guide and discuss topics while staying within the company policies on communication development.

I’ll also make sure your feedback is passed up the chain from those who gave feedback on that specific policy.

Thanks folks!

We don’t want you to “stay within company policies” – we want you to change the policy and communicate the direction you’re going in more.

Developer roadmap?