This is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! ! !
I’ve wanted something like this for a long time and now that it’s finally coming, you managed to make it This kitten Good!Such a refreshment! There are a ton of things like these that should be looked over, and it really feels like we (literally) have to wait ~2 years to see them change.
Might actually be my favorite patch of all time!Thank you! This is the side of ANet that should never be turned away from us!
I’m glad you are excited, and we are too. This is just the first taste of stuff coming in the build. There will be many more blogs. =)
Thanks for the updates! Really excited about these changes!
Could you please also address concerns regarding early leveling difficulties for new players (especially for classes like Ele and Mesmers) since important defensive traits are now only obtainable starting at level 30 rather than at level 15?
We have done some tuning on monster stats pre-80 to account for players having less traits, and stats from traits. We wanted to push back traits to give characters more meaningful progression up to 80 and keep things simpler for a new player to learn over time.
Simpler = boring.
You’re going to bore new players to death so that they abandon the game before reaching 80.
Look at PoE’s skill tree. While I personally found it unnecessarily complex (especially since most of the paths were basic stats anyway, giving a greater illusion of complexity and depth that wasn’t actually there), people swear up and down by it. They love it. Because it makes them feel like they have an insane amount of options for customization.
If anything, you should be expanding the depth and complexity of the trait system, not simplifying it.
Right now, it feels like there is so little customization available in GW2. Every choice amounts to donning a uniform (Zerker, Assassin, Valkyrie) – and there’s always a ‘best choice’ when it comes to traiting for that particular uniform. In GW2 this goes beyond just FOTM builds – both traits and gear in this game are so streamlined that there is little wiggle room for players to tweak their builds the way they WANT to.
You need to double the amount of traits, at minimum, and provide greater creative control over them.
Yes, this will be a balance nightmare. But it’s worth it in the end. Give players more options.
You are doing the opposite – once again dumbing down your game because you think it will appeal to casual gamers.
We wanted to push back traits to give characters more meaningful progression up to 80 and keep things simpler for a new player to learn over time.
These are YOUR words. Keep things simpler for new players. Translation: we think it will appeal to casual players more.
Here’s the wake up call: it won’t. Players want more choices, not less. This is because it’s a point of pride when you can wrangle a build out of what’s available that is very difficult for others to deal with. It’s a creative thing.
We want more than to just have you guys hand us your pre-ordained uniforms to wear – Berserker, Apothecary, Assassin – we want to CREATE our own uniforms, our own custom builds.
We want creative control over our characters.
Look at what Diablo 3 did recently – they added additional customization options above and beyond what was already there. They ADDED complexity to their system.
You need to do the same.
Yes, it will cause balance issues. But that’s ok. I’m pretty sure the majority of players would prefer an unbalanced, but interesting game, over a balanced, but utterly boring game.
I can tell you why this happens.
MMO players have different expectations, because they are all looking for this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaverse
The Metaverse is a collective virtual shared space, created by the convergence of virtually enhanced physical reality and physically persistent virtual space,1 including the sum of all virtual worlds, augmented reality, and the internet. The word metaverse is a portmanteau of the prefix “meta” (meaning “beyond”) and “universe” and is typically used to describe the concept of a future iteration of the internet, made up of persistent, shared, 3D virtual spaces linked into a perceived virtual universe.2
The term was coined in Neal Stephenson’s 1992 science fiction novel Snow Crash, where humans, as avatars, interact with each other and software agents, in a three-dimensional space that uses the metaphor of the real world. Stephenson coined the term to describe a virtual reality-based successor to the Internet.3 Concepts similar to the Metaverse have appeared under a variety of names in the cyberpunk genre of fiction as far back as 1981 in the novella True Names.
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter how much you payed for it – what matters, is whether people get burned out on it, whether the time they spent there (whether it’s 1500, or 15 hours) was fun, and whether or not there is a horizon of content that is always receding from the player (meaning: no matter how much time a person spends living in your world, they can never see everything, or experience all the content, because new content is being created faster than any player can experience it).
We are NOT quite to the point where any company can deliver this experience, but we are rapidly approaching it.
What I found annoying, is that GW2 promised at least some aspects of this. I expected that Anet wanted to create a Metaverse inside Tyria – of course I knew that they would fall short, but what I didn’t expect was by how much they fell short.
Much of the content was boring grind. Leveling to 60 was fun at first – then quickly grew stale.
Combat still clings to too many traditional MMO conventions – it’s actually not “actiony” enough.
The world itself is designed like a theme park ride – invisible walls separating zones, the zones themselves are these huge rectangles on the map that make no sense from a geographical POV.
It’s much less a “living world” than a Tyrian flavored theme park.
Despite this, I think that GW2 did several things really, really well, at least relative to MMO’s in general, which I think are very terrible right now.
What I’ve realized is that what everyone wants just isn’t feasible for another 6 years or so – we don’t possess the technology to really make a convincing MMO world that is more than a gimmick.
What happened is that as adventure games glimpsed the possibility of the Metaverse in the past – from games like Ultima – their fans got a taste of what’s to come. Since then, we’ve been demanding what we really want – and what will be available soon, but not today: the Metaverse. Developers have been promising this to make some money, and in all honesty many of them really enjoy the journey towards this goal – the only problem lies in our expectations that “this game” is the ONE. The metaverse. This problem is exacerbated by developer hype pre-launch.
GW2 promised a lot – and while I feel it is hands down one of the best MMO’s on the market, it still fails to become what I want out of a fully immersive, captivating virtual world, and it also falls short of what Anet promised it would be.
That’s ok.
I’ve spent just under 1000 hours playing GW2, and I had some fun. Ultimately, I probably shouldn’t have spent extra money in the shop, but I spent around $70 which is ok – I thin Anet does deserve some reward for what they’ve done, but I realize it’s probably time to quit.
Unless they can turn around and actually make good on the things they promised in the Manifesto, I don’t see much reason to continue playing – and especially not continue paying.
Another metaverse is waiting out there for me – somewhere.
I don’t think I’m going to play MMO’s again until after the Oculus Rift is released.
I’ve actually started playing Rift again now that it’s free to play.
Not because I like Rift – I actually hate the game.
But because the skill tree is the one interesting thing about it, and building a character (though, unfortunately, not playing it) is fun.
GW2 needs a deeper customization skill/trait system.
The one we have is dreadfully boring.
I’d take D3’s skill system over GW2.
Umm, the whole “entire game is end game” discussion has been around for years. It was widely said by devs over and over that Guild Wars 2 didn’t have an end game, or that the entire game was end game. Colin described it this way. He said that in most games when you get to level cap the game changes. You were doing one thing, now you’re doing something else. He was saying (and I’m paraphrasing here) that doesn’t happen in Guild Wars 2. And he’s right. I do the same thing at max level I did all along. Which is what I wanted from the game, so I’m happy.
Whether that is true or not will depend very much on playstyle. Explorers might do their map completion up to and to some extent into level 80. However, exploring is not exploring if you’ve been there before. One can do map completion on alts, but it isn’t the same as doing that completion — or just hunting for Easter egss — the first go-round.
Very little content has been added for the explorer playstyle. This leaves “repeating content” for rewards, which is very much NOT what I was doing while leveling.
Now, I know that providing new areas for explorers is resource intensive and hits diminishing returns very quickly. This makes it less cost effective for the developer than providing achievement chases and focusing everyone into herd content. However, this makes GW2 more like other MMO’s, not less.
This is my biggest problem.
“grind” is only grind to me if I have to repeat the content more than 3 times.
At heart, I am an exploration/immersion player. Although I dabble in other things, primarily I’m the kind of player who wants to reach new places on the map, and discover forgotten ruins/dungeons.
This kind of play was promised to us in the Manifesto – but I found that it was severely over-hyped.
The mere layout of the world is anti-exploration. The proliferation of waypoints everywhere, the weird rectangular grid of zones, the fact that the world is not open or seamless.
It’s all streamlined. It’s a rollercoaster. A theme park ride.
And the combat itself is hardly challenging. Instead of creating a diverse bestiary with tons of monsters that use a wide variety of tactics and skills that one must learn to deal with, you just see a small handful of repeated monster models used over and over again.
I forgot to add:
Character customization (traits) needs to be a lot deeper and more meaningful. I miss games where my skill points unlock new skills.
Gear grind is fine, if you enjoy what you need to do to get it.
The problem as I see it, is that content must be repeated far too many times to get it.
The first 3 times I leveled a new character, I had fun in Tyria.
Then it got really tiresome, because I was repeating the same content over and over.
By the time I got my 6th character to 80 I just couldn’t do it anymore. I couldn’t do the same content one more time. I was finished.
The gear in GW2 is somewhat disappointing – it’s all stat bonuses. No abilities or new effects on proc.
Most of the high end stuff isn’t even particularly great looking either (although some of it is).
GW2 should have more action based combat, instead of the standard MMO tab-targeting and long CD’s.
But, to be honest, there are many things I like about GW2 combat – the dodge roll is really awesome.
Regardless, the problem with the grind is not that you are “grinding” – the problem with it is that you have to grind in the same place over and over and over again.
The world simply isn’t big enough by half.
I’ve said this a dozen times now, and I’ll repeat it again: the size of the world needs to triple.
Loot needs to be more diverse. Loot that actually does neat stuff, aside from just giving static stat bonuses.
Stat bonuses are boring.
More classes. More playable races. More skills/weapons to choose from.
All of the things Anet will avoid like the plague because it either costs money, or because it upsets their precious “balance”.
We need more places to explore – more battlefields to fight on.
More content. Triple the amount of playable area in the game. Remove barriers to exploration, like invisible walls and loading zones.
Add superfluous things that add texture and variety to the world (interactive elements and common/useless items).
Period.
I logged in just so that I could comment on this with…
ARE YOU JOKING ME???
Is there even such thing as a game where this isn’t the case lmfao?
Coming from somebody that played runescape for just about a decade, I do not sympathize with you OP.
That doesn’t make it ok.
While everyone goes back and forth arguing for or against this particular treadmill, we’ve all forgotten one thing:
What about creating a near endless stream of NEW content that is also rewarding?
I seem to recall that originally, GW2 was supposed to let you play any content you wanted to get the rewards you wanted (isn’t that what Karma was supposed to be?) while a small amount of content (dungeons) would have specific rewards that were primarily cosmetic.
What happened to that?
The devs have shifted from creating new content, to figuring out how to get people to repeat content for pointless rewards that no one even really wants anyway…..
Skinner box again.
So, how about we focus on pressuring them into the one thing that actually matters: creating TONS of new content.
My problem with this new breed of game by investor is that is is often self-defeating.
The truth is, if you simply make a compelling game, then people will spend all their money on it.
What seems to occur, is companies that think they can repeat the success of a past game, and so the clone it. Hence all the ‘wow clones’ – but they usually only do this at a very superficial level, they don’t actually put all the work and polish into it like the original did.
GW2 is not quite like that. I think the devs were passionate at one time.
As has been mentioned, the problems in GW2 crept up on them – the pressure to perform (sales) is pushing decisions that will actually drive players away (and result in less revenue, which will drive even worse decisions – it’s a spiral).
With less money coming in, they can’t convince anyone that investing more money into actually making the things that would bring people back to spend more is worthwhile.
CREATE MORE CONTENT. Open up new zones. New classes. New skills and weapons. New enemies (my god, it gets so boring fighting the same monsters everywhere you go).
Ultimately, the game is sparse in every aspect. There aren’t enough costumes in the gem store for anyone to buy, even if they were so inclined (my girlfriend and I are both big time vanity spenders – but there is almost no selection in the store to buy).
I don’t understand the entire dynamic that leads games to this dark place in their development, but it seems to happen to every MMO, and the decisions are suicide. All these decisions are based around the idea of squeezing the game for as much money as they can, but in the end it just kills the game, and then there’s no money, and no players left to squeeze.
Build a great game. Players will throw hoards of cash at you if you do. It really is that simple.
For GW2, as has been mentioned countless times already, address the things that you promised in the Manifesto.
Action based combat.
Lack of grind.
Tons of compelling DE’s (please remove all heart quests from the game).
Expand the world 10x over. Open up completely new zones, and expand the one’s that already exist (with new structures and complexes – make underground and underwater zones that are miles long).
Make the world bigger.
Add a couple more classes. Some new weapons. Bette loot, and redesign the armor/stat system because it’s incredibly static and boring.
Add greater depth to character customization, because right now it’s like choosing from a small set of ‘uniforms’.
Do all of this, and people will flock back to the game and pump money into it.
I have only two words left for Anet: Star Citizen.
I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.
Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.
We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.
The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.
I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.
They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.
But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.
It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.
This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.
I don’t care why it happens.
I just want it to stop.
I want games to be fun again.
I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.
Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.
We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.
The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.
I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.
They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.
LOOT
This just goes back to itemization in general and how terrible it is, but I don’t look forward to killing anything because it generally doesn’t drop anything I want, so there’s no enthusiasm there at all.
The best loot is the dungeon armors – and they’re just skins! Seriously, wth is wrong with you guys? Just skins!
Even so, I really wanted some, but I haven’t yet saved enough of any single dungeon currency to get one! Who thought up that brilliant idea???? Why don’t they drop when you kill a dungeon boss?
Furthermore, they should have EPIC abilities. And, why did you put dungeon vendors in Lions Arch? I’ll tell you why this peeves me, because even after I accepted that the only reason I wanted these skins was because of the way they looked, I had an awful time when I was trying to mix and match them in the equipment preview window right there in Lions Arch (that is, I had to walk back and forth between vendors to attempt to get a mix n’ match preview). So, why not just add a tab to the Hero window instead? It would be so much easier. Get rid of those vendors, they’re stupid.
PERSONAL STORY
Absolutely terrible. Haven’t finished any of that nonsense. I don’t know what else to say, it was awful.
I don’t like the downleveling.
I do agree that griefing is an issue, but I decided that once I’m powerful, I want to remain that way.
This particularly irks me concerning dungeons.
If you have to, uplevel mobs – don’t downlevel me.
But I realized that insanely large health pools for dungeon mobs is incredibly boring. It railroads people into some very limited options for play.
It’s too hard to solo dungeons. I know you intended them for group play, and I also know that if you follow a formulaic set of actions and principles, that you can still solo the dungeons.
But they should have been made difficult through challenging game mechanics, not through artificial means like giant health pools and anti-cc mechanics.
The first time I walked into the Ascolonian dungeon with my Thief alone I got my kitten handed to me by the first trash mob I encountered, and I thought to myself, ‘Jeez, I can’t even kill a single trash mob and I’m like 15 levels higher?’ WTF!!!
It’s very frustrating. Yes, I eventually joined a group. And yes, I eventually saw the videos on how to solo – but that’s all boring. I wanted a dungeon that was challenging to figure out on my own. One where it was possible to stand toe to toe with any monster in it – if you were sly and quick on the mouse.
Instead I found formulas for beating everything.
INTERACTION
Related to exploration. Being able to interact with the environment is important to immersion. I want to be able to take torches off of walls. I want to interact with more than just resource nodes. I want to be able to open and close doors, take drinks from fountains, burn down foliage, and fart. I want more emotes. I want to be able to take milk from a cow, churn it into butter, and then use that butter on a loaf of bread (that I made myself from the wheat I collected from the field, ground at the millstone into flour, and then finally baked in the kitchens).
I WANT THE METAVERSE
MORE ITEMS
Items that you don’t even consider useful or directly relevant to the game. Wooden spoons that do nothing (except, spoon stuff). Nails. Horseshoes. Wax. Paper. Twigs.
PLAYER HOUSING
PvP is actually ok, but I think you guys need to shake it up once in a while, keep it fresh.
WvWvW could be ok – but do more to break up the zerg. Zerging is just people’s herd instinct. We will always do it as long as the game mechanics reward us for doing so.
The zerg should not be outright eliminated, there is a time and place for it – sometimes epic battles are cool to watch on video.
However, zerg play makes for a really boring game, when that’s 90% of what you do.
THere’s actually very little strategy or tactics involved in zerging. It’s usually quite boring.
So, break it up. Do more to encourage people to play in small, coordinated groups.
Add collision mechanics.
I don’t have any hope really that Anet will be able to do any of the things I talk about, not even a fraction of them.
I’ve spent about $130 on this game so far, and now I can hardly bring myself to log in.
It’s just another theme park game.
Can’t wait for the first Oculus Rift MMO.
EXPLORATION
The world, after the first time exploring it, gets really boring, fast.
First, it’s way too kitten small. It needs to be 50-100% larger. Second, I really tire of the invisible walls and zoning. When will they learn? Us immersion players want a METAVERSE. We want realism (within the internally consistent logical rules of your universe). We want endless exploration. Tombs and cemeteries and vaults and caverns galore. 666 levels of dungeons to grind away in. Cloud castles floating above (all explorable! Why weren’t the Aether pirates ships boardable?!?!?!?!) and sunken cities and jungle ruins and lots of things that have nothing to do with your stupid primary story plot.
I want little threads of adventures that pull me off the beaten path for weeks at at a time, to the point where I find it difficult to remember where I started, and where I was originally going.
I want a mountain that takes an hour to climb, just to find the entrance to a temple that then takes me 4 more days to descend to the bottom of.
Vast, intricate complexes that defy attempts to map them.
I want to be able to try, as hard as it may be, to find alternative routes into new regions. If I can climb up that mountain by jiggling my mouse and jump buttons for half an hour, bypassing the road you intended my to take into that region, then so be it – my patience and tenacity should pay off. NO MORE INVISIBLE WALLS OR ZONES. I want one seamless WORLD.
Too many waypoints. Making it so easy to travel around just makes it into a theme park ride. There’s no danger, there’s no challenge. No suspense. Get rid of at least half the waypoints, if not all of them.
Put waypoints in towns, and nothing else.
There are a couple things I like about GW2, and I had fun when I first started playing, but I’ve hardly logged in at all in the last two months.
I have 6 characters at lvl 80, a 7th around 70, and an 8th around 20 (I have one each of every class – my Warrior is about 70, and my Engi about 20 or so).
The things I liked:
Immersive details. I love the background noises in the cities – people talking to each other, etc. The level of detail that went into designing some of these environments really blows me away – the first dozen times I visit an area. Lots of little things – like walking under a tree, and snow falls out of it onto your head. Innocuous things, that make you look twice to make sure they even happened. Immersive details Truly wonderful.
Control of my character. Basic movement of my character in this game is incredibly fluid and smooth, even with all graphic settings set at maximum. I was surprised at how well these models move. Jumping, dodging, running, everything. Excellent. Most of the time animations blend really well with anything else you do, and I’ve only experienced an occasional bug. Movement animation in general is superb.
Overall, the art direction is absolutely stunning. The environments are…..well, kitten pretty (most of them anyway, there are a few I care for less, like Ascalon). My single complaint with the art is that zones in general feel like theme parks, but this goes to overall environment design, and not specifically to the art itself. Which is to say, you go to the Shiverpeaks and it’s….snow. And then some more snow. And ice. More snow and ice, and in case you get bored of snow and ice, have some more snow and ice. Not that it isn’t pretty, as far as snow and ice goes, but it seems as if each zone has a single “theme” that pretty much overrides all diversity within that zone. Go to the West, to the Sylvari and Asura zones, and it’s all jungle. All night, all day, 24/7. as far as the eye can see, just endless jungle theme. Take some geography classes. Learn to teraform. Throw in some kitten variation. This isn’t SUPER MARIO WORLD. Otherwise, kitten fine job on the art.
Now, for the things I don’t like:
COMBAT
This is the huge one. I thought I’d love GW2 combat, because it was hyped as “action based combat” – but it isn’t. At least not enough. Still have tab targeting, and I think that’s a huge mistake. Should have made it reticule based FPS style. That would have been so much better. Or, at bare minimum, like DDO with it’s mouse-look lock. I mean, sometimes GW2 feels a little like that, but most of the time it still feels like tab-target skill-rotation style combat, and I was really hoping for more ACTION based combat – as they promised.
Also, I thought I’d like the skill locked to weapons at first – but turns out, I didn’t. I DO like having 10 skills, and no more. I like having to choose my ‘loadout’ instead of having access to every skill my class can use, and I also like how little clutter there is on my screen because of that. Those are good aspects of this system, but I realized that I’d rather be able to customize those 5 skill slots exactly to my liking, instead of being limited to whatever 5 skills come with that weapon – just to make Anet’s balancing job easier.
Yeah, 10 skills only was a good idea – locking those skills to each weapon was bad.
GEAR
Absolutely the most boring gear I’ve ever seen in any game. It’s all just a uniform. This is my zerker uniform, this other one is my valkyrie uniform, and this is my apothecary uniform, etc.
In addition to being so streamlined as to make me gag, there’s no interesting Legendeary equipment with unique abilities that make you gasp. It’s all so tame.
Yeah, sure, balance. Big whoopty whoop. I don’t care about balance nearly as much as I care about EPIC. EPIC makes me want to spend money. LOTS of MONEY. Make it epic and I will pay for it.
All the gear in this game sucks. It’s mostly boring to look at, and it doesn’t really do much. Another stat bonus.
I have to say, of all the changes I heard about today, the one’s that make me the happiest are the changes to Sigils/Runes, in particular the removal of the shared ICD between different types of Sigils – this is going to open up builds I had wanted to do when I first started playing.
How about combo fields combine to form completely different effects – i.e., putting a water field on top of a fire field creates a steam field, etc.
Pros: New combinations and diversity.
Cons: Unforeseen balance issues, new programming.
Or, new fields are pushed to the edge of any field they are placed on top of (so that fields can’t actually overlap).
Pros: Fields don’t interfere with each other. Total AoE increased. Can’t exploit stacking multiple AoE fields on top of each other, requiring more intelligent gameplay and planning.
Cons: Intensity of stacking AoE fields on top of each other decreased. Potentially some weird bugs could result from this (as AoE fields are pushed into strange places, like walls, off cliffs, etc.)
Allow attacks to gain multiple effects from all fields they are part of.
Pros: Easy to implement.
Cons: OP (?)
@Nike
I just want to point out that you left out those who want build diversity in your list.
You seem to think that everyone who wants some changes want so only because they’re bad, or want a more passive, or ‘trinity’ based, game – a somewhat elitist attitude.
While I agree that “actiony combat” must necessitate, by definition, mechanics that focus more on damage (passive defenses being…by their very name….passive, which is the opposite of “actiony”) – many of us REALLY just want DIVERSITY.
It kinda sucks when everyone is pigeonholed into doing the exact same thing.
Essentially, what we want is customization – people love the ability to come up with combos no one else has yet, instead of following the cookie cutter path that’s been laid out before them. This is where player creativity comes in. I want to BUILD, not STENCIL my character, but right now the mechanics are there to funnel everyone towards a single playstyle over time.
Defensive stats and gear need to be reworked so that they contribute to the combat in a more active manner.
For example, why should the damage of Retaliation be based on Power, and not Toughness? The whole thing is based around the thorns concept, which is armor. Therefore, why not make Retaliation damage increase from Toughness?
It’s a different way of dealing damage. And, if you feel like being Tougher, at least you can still dish some damage out – if you get hit. So, by putting trait points into Toughness, taking traits that give me Retaliation, and wearing gear that gives me Toughness, I have an alternative means of dealing damage, without having to run Berserker/Assassin. It makes me want to get in the way to get hit. Retaliation could stack in intensity, instead of duration.
Now.
Think about doing something similar to every defensive stat.
The key is to make the defensive stats provide some kind of active contribution, instead of merely a passive one, that is made obsolete by the active dodge mechanic.
The above example I gave is a proto-idea that could work for Toughness gear. Figure out something similar for Vitality and Healing Power too, and then you got your solution.
I thought this game wasn’t supposed to be grindy?
I hear people talking about “speed runs”, and thinking to myself, why would anyone ever want to do a speedrun, anyway?
The answer is simple. You speed run because you want the reward, but not the content.
And why wouldn’t you want the content? Because it’s repeat. You’ve already done it.
So, why not reward enough dungeon currency to buy a piece of armor or weapon each and every run.
Or, just put it in the chest at the end as a choice of the entire dungeon set – each run gets you one.
The ONLY reason not to do this is to keep people grinding the same content over and over and over, because you need people on that treadmill to keep them busy because you don’t have enough content to satisfy them.
BUT
We were told this is a non-grindy game, so what gives?
The goal should be to allow defensive stats to do damage, but in a wholly different manner – defensively.
This way, defensive builds would simply be a different playstyle, but on equal ground.
Here’s my illustrative example:
Add more Retaliation to all trait lines with Toughness in them. Base Retaliation damage on Toughness instead of Power. Now, you can make a Thorns build, that has damage mitigation, and is also capable of doing lots of damage (although only when you are hit – which makes it a completely different way of dealing damage).
Otherwise, aggression will always be favored over defense. It can’t be any other way. If the game favored defense, you would run into prolonged battles that sometimes never ended. Aggression has to have the edge in order for fights to reach a conclusion.
The Berserker meta simply reflects this fact taken to it’s utmost, logical extreme.
There’s two ways to do defense – base it on opportunity, or base it on build (passive defense – like Toughness, Vitality).
I say make defense based MORE on opportunity than it already is – but this would require adding additional defensive options, such as more active blocking and dodging, and unerplaying passive defense even more than it already is. I would be fine with that, but it would require a rework of many systems, and at that point you might as well simply scrap all the passive defense stats, like Toughness and Healing Power.
Let’s think about the dodge mechanic. Why does it have to be dodge for every class, and every build? Why can’t it simply be my “active defense” slot, the specific skill changing depending on my build and/or class?
For example, if I am playing a class that uses Shields, why can’t there be a minor trait that transforms dodge into block (but uses the same amount of Endurance – instead of dodge rolling, I stand and block with Shield).
This would allow the player to customize active defense. You could do the same with Precision – turning it into a Parry instead if traited for it. Defensive stats could also affect these skills in some way (aside from Vigor). For example, if you Dodge, then maybe pts. into your ‘agility’ line (whatever that happens to be for your class, I’m assuming Precision) could affect things like animation speed, distance dodged, evade frames (+ 0.2 seconds of evade frame per 5 pts???), but if you had Block instead (Toughness), then maybe instead of a full block, it simply reduced dmg. greatly, and pts. in that line reduced the amount taken (or maybe something else….just throwing stuff out here), and if it were a Parry instead, maybe trait points could increase the likelihood of an interrupt or daze on Parry.
They need to make defensive stats do damage – in a defensive manner.
Retaliation damage based on Toughness – Thorns.
Lifesteal traits based on Healing Power – Vampirism.
Vitality gives Fury an additional +1% Crit Dmg per point.
Or something along those lines……..
Above all, I’d like to see stats do more than be a static modifier – they can fundamentally change the way abilities work, which creates far more diversity and possibility in builds.
And is a hell of a lot more fun.
I’d like to see them take the active elements of defense and expand them, based upon stats.
Why does dodge always have to be dodge? What if you had a minor (or major) trait that turned “dodge” into “parry” or “block” (these could have requirements placed upon them – such as equipping a certain weapon, without which it would revert to a standard dodge). You would have a variety of defensive skills, affected by traits and stats, and would offer a much larger range of customizability. For example, perhaps 20 pts. in Toughness turns your ‘dodge’ into block, but only if you are wielding a Shield, Focus, Torch, Greatsword, or Staff. 20 pts. in Precision turns it into ‘parry’ – but only if you are wielding a 1-hd weapon in your off hand (such as sword, axe, or dagger – but not torch, focus, or warhorn).
I’m just brainstorming – there are all kinds of possibilities for expanding what your ‘endurance’ bar does, and tying it into your stats.
Also, I agree that enemies themselves need to have more diverse options for combat, to shake things up. If fights weren’t so straightforward, then people would have to improvise – including character builds – a lot more.
Make combat all around more “actiony”, but provide many different options in how to approach it.
Make Retaliation hit for a percentage of your Toughness/Armor, instead of Power based – now there’s a trippy idea!
Make different conditions do some different things based on defensive stats instead of just on Condition Damage.
What if – with Vampiric Precision traited – a Necro’s bleeds returned 15% of the damage done as health to the Necro? But those same bleeds caused neighboring opponents (not the target itself) to get Chilled, if the Necro traited Spinal Shivers? Those conditions could have small differences in the way they work directly dependent upon traits and stats. (Again, just brainstorming)
What if, with 25 pts. in Precision, a Thief gains critical bleeds (some kind of multiplier to the base damage based upon crit dmg)? Or with 30 pts. in Power, Poison becomes Mighty Poison, which applies -25% Endurance Regen as well.
For Mesmers, what if 20 pts. in Inspiration could give Illusions a passive Heal – or a small amount of Life Steal (allowing you to sustain dmg from Phantasms).
I could go on with hundreds of more ideas, but I think I made my point – traits should more radically change how everything works, including defensive abilities, so that going for defensive builds doesn’t cripple one as much in other areas.
I think my idea of tying the damage of Retaliation to Toughness instead of Power is probably the best example I came up with, and I’d like to see that actually get implemented.
I’m sure everyone here, and the devs, could probably refine this to a much greater degree than I could, but I just wanted to put this on the table.
Actually, quite a few games don’t have loading screens.
It’s a choice – and I understand why they do it, I just don’t agree with it. It’s a trade off, and I prefer a seamless world.
This game needs a dungeon “preview”, or taste, or “aspect” of each dungeon that is not an instance and accessible near the actual dungeon that is thematically similar to the dungeon.
It’s main purpose would be to have something (a champion, a veteran, a jumping puzzle, a mini-event?) that would allow a player to obtain a small amount – a very small amount – of that dungeons currency without having to enter the dungeon.
Some kind of timer or limitation could be placed on it so that each player can only obtain a certain set amount of that currency per day, or per hour, or whatever.
But, the underlying point is to allow anyone to at least make a tiny amount of progress on the dungeon currencies, even if they can’t, or don’t want to, create a party, since dungeons require full parties to play.
At least let us chip away at it slowly.
Gear progression is fun if you are doing new content to get it.
The real problem with gear progression, and why it becomes “grindy” in people’s minds, is that one must repeat content to accumulate…whatever (dungeon currencies, laurels, badges of honor, whatever)…in order to get it.
Now, before I bought this game, I was actually under the impression that I’d be able to spend Karma to get any gear I needed – I didn’t care how expensive they were, because I knew that if I just kept playing the content that I enjoyed, I’d eventually be able to get whatever I wanted.
And that is where the disappointment comes from – I have to REPEAT content endlessly to get the gear I need to move on.
Now, if Anet either included a truly epic amount of new content that provided whatever currencies I needed to get any gear I wanted, OR expanded the options currently available for getting those currencies (leaving the cash shop aside), then this grinding problem wouldn’t be…..
In other words, the problem arises from Anet forcing you to play content you may not want to in order to obtain something you feel you need.
Let us play the way we want – if I want to go “grind” in Frostgorge Sound for a week, why can’t I use whatever “currency” I find there to get Ascalonian weapons? Or whatever, you see my point right?
It’s about being forced to do one particular thing to get what you want, without options to play how and where you want to.
Just make Karma a universal currency that can be used to buy any of the gear sets.
As far as Ascended goes, I kind of like the idea that they can only be obtained with hard work – but I’d like to see alternative methods of acquiring them (that are just as time consuming) aside from crafting. Not everyone loves crafting, so how about 1 or 2 optional methods of getting them?
Immersion and Exploration.
Some of us feel that Anet backpedaled on a lot that was promised from the Manifesto.
The only thing I REALLY want in 2014 is more immersion and more exploration. More content.
I want to find little cathedrals and cemeteries tucked away in remote sections of mountains that almost no one ever bothers to go to because nothing was ever there. I want to find little holes and caves at the bottom of pools in the swamps that lead to nothing more than a vet/champ and a chest (deeper ones – vast subterranian caverns that are accessible from the open world, and not instanced).
More places to go. More stuff to see. More monster types. It gets really boring seeing the same models repeated ad nauseum. Moa this and moa that. Frost drakes, river drakes, marsh drakes, peppermint drakes, backstreet boy drakes, drake this and drake that. Where’s the variety? Where’s the massive bestiary that only a scholar could completely catalog?
More skills and weapons to increase build diversity.
Playable Tengu and Kodan (especially Kodan).
Expanded map zones. What’s behind the Tengu walls? What’s north of Frostgorge? MOAR
Oh, and I know they’re not going to do this, but remove the barriers between zones and loading screens – make Tyria a seamless open world.
I don’t look at it as “have to spam my dodges”, I look at it as, “Dodging negates damage and is part of my regular defense rotation, so I dodge, attack, dodge, attack, etc.” – it’s all part or the rhythm/cadence, so it works.
Actually, my biggest gripe with this is the casting time of Empower – or, at least, it should grant Retaliation during the cast time.
I know 12 stacks of Might is a lot (!) – but it also doesn’t last that long (at least not on self), because that 2.5 sec cast time means that when you are finished, you’ve only got 7.5 sec left on the first two pulses.
Anyway, it’s a good skill, I just think that the cast time warrants some kind of deterrence, and Retaliation would fit the bill.
(edited by ipan.4356)
For the record: I never said Scepter 2 was weak – I pointed out that it was passive, and as it’s the ONLY skill we have the applies Torment, we have no way of actively applying it with an attack – but other professions DO (Shadow Strike, Impale, Tainted Shackles)
The other way to do it would be to modify the Runes and Sigils as follows:
Sigil of Tormenting: 30% chance to trigger AoE Torment on critical, CD 4 sec.
Superior Rune of Tormenting:
2: Increase Torment damage by 10%
4: 30% chance to apply Torment (10 sec) on hit (15 sec. cd)
6: Apply 3 stacks of Torment on Heal (15 sec. CD)
Here’s what I propose:
Change Torment so that it does NO damage while standing still.
Add Torment to the following skills:
Scepter 1 – 1 stack of Torment (2 sec. duration) on the second hit. (this would mean that without traits or any bonuses to Torment duration, auto-attacking should maintain exactly 1 stack of Torment at all times, since the entire duration of the auto-attack chain is listed as 2 seconds – with traits and Runes, this could be caused to actually begin to slowly stack Torment)
Blurred Frenzy – The final hit adds 2 stacks of Torment (3 sec.)
Do any of you use a full set of Runes of Tormenting and a Sigil of Tormenting?
Anyone at all? I’d love to see a link to your build.
I ran this build:
And the problem was that the Runes of Torment and the Sigil of Tormenting didn’t multiply the effects of Torment enough.
What I lost out on, by taking these Runes and Sigil in place of something else, wasn’t made up by any increases in Torment, and the reason is that there simply isn’t enough Torment in the base build to multiply.
That’s how Runes work – if I go full Krait on a bleed build, then I multiply all the bleeding skills I have.
If I go full set of Torment Runes, I only have ONE skill that applies Torment, so the multiplier isn’t there.
Get it now?
Let me see if I can reduce my points to something even simpler:
A Rune set acts as a multiplier for certain conditions, boons, or other modifiers in the game. For example, if I use a full set of Krait, then my bleeds are going to be insane. If I use a ton of Might, then Fire and/or Altruism (and Battle sigil) are really good – all of these will multiply the boon or condition I use.
Runes of Tormenting and Sigil of Tormenting are hardly useful, because there is so little base Torment to work with in the first place.
I also admit that maybe the problem is actually the Runes and not the other way around. For example, instead of Torment duration, it could increase Torment damage.
However, and I use Impale as evidence, I’d also point out that the Mesmer has no active means of applying Torment (aside from Sigil of Torment and 6 Runes of Tormenting, which are available to everyone) in the same manner.
If anything, you’d think Torment is especially suited to a Mesmer. But, envy aside, the point is, if Impale is ok for a Warrior, then why can’t we get some kind of low key Torment on auto-attack (if Imaple applies 5 every 15, then why not 1 per chain for Mesmers, which probably works out to something similar to 5/15?)
These stacks could even have a much lower duration if necessary.
Why are you arguing that a little extra Torment is OP for Mesmer’s (so that using Runes/Sigil of Torment multiplies it properly) but it’s perfectly ok for a Warrior?
See, I’d actually consider using those Runes and Sigil on a Sword/Sword Warrior, but not on a Mesmer.
Why?
Here’s an even better idea:
Balance Torment by removing all damage while standing still.
(and add some Torment to our base skills)
No, it’s you guys who are wrong.
There’s something pretty simple here that you are missing.
A Bleed build is something that someone can spec into – for example, a Thief can go full condition build and apply tons of bleeds everywhere with DB and can even get both Sigils and Rune sets (several, in fact) that really compliment this.
Now, whether you think this is a terrible playstyle or not is irrelevant (it is kinda one note, and anything that direct usually has a ‘hard counter’), but the underlying point is that if someone wanted really powerful bleeds, at the expense of everything else, they can get it.
Now, I understand that Torment is essentially a Bleed, that does twice as much damage if the target is moving, forcing them to stand still for the duration of the Torment, immediately cleanse it, or take an enormous amount of damage.
Bleed builds (and Vulnerability builds, which may be even worse) can easily get up to 25 stacks, if you really concentrate on doing nothing else.
A Torment build cannot. Even if we accept that Torment is twice as powerful as bleed, then it should be easy to get up to 12 stacks consistently, or perhaps Torment should have 1/2 the duration (point is: give and take. For every advantage, there should be a disadvantage). You balance the relative power by taking one way, while giving another.
Furthermore, if someone really wanted to, taking the associated Rune sets and Sigils should make that particular ability really powerful – just as when I take Sigil of Battle and a Rune set that stacks ridiculous stacks of Might (such as Altruism/Fire) or sets that stack tons of bleed.
But you can’t do that with Torment.
Torment is a red-headed step child, and I understand why: it’s dangerous. Torment, potentially, could be incredibly OP, because as I pointed out, Torment is essentially a double-bleed (but only if the target is moving). Even if the target doesn’t move, it’s still just as powerful as a bleed.
But, those Rune sets do exist. And the Sigil does exist. But no one would use them in a serious build. Why? Because there isn’t quite enough Torment application in the weapon skills to warrant it.
Yes, I understand that there is a fine line where Torment would quickly become OP, but because of this it is seriously held back – due to fear it could be abused.
As is, it doesn’t quite reach that sweet spot where taking a full set of Runes of Tormenting AND a Sigil of Tormenting are worth the trade off based on other sets you could take that would give you a higher roi.
And therefore, Torment will simply be an odd thing that pops up now and again, but never something anyone seriously puts effort into.
It could be strong, if you were capable of applying as many stacks as the game allows.
It isn’t strong because there aren’t enough ways to apply it.
I realized, after making the OP, that there wasn’t a problem with the base damage – there was simply a problem with the fact that there aren’t enough ways to apply Torment.
The game allows for up to 25 stacks of Torment to be applied to a single target.
However, given the resources we have (Scepter 2 – Sigil of Torment – Runes of Torment) there is literally no way to ever apply that many stacks of Torment.
Second, Scepter 2 is merely a passive skill that is conditional – you can only apply those stacks of Torment if you are attacked. I’m not complaining about that skill, but rather the fact that we only have passive method of applying those stacks. The Warrior (and Thief, and Necro) at least have active attacks that can apply Torment when they want.
Warriors have a ranged attack that applies 5 stacks of Torment and Mesmer’s have a passive block that applies 5 stacks of Torment – which is better?
My point is that it is impossible to ‘spec’ into Torment. Even if you wanted to. Sigil of Tormenting and Runes of Tormenting, while good in themselves, are not helped by the fact that so few Mesmer skills apply Torment in any consistent fashion.
Yes, Scepter 2 is good – but you will never see anyone making a “Torment build” around it – because it’s not consistent and reliable enough to sacrifice everything else you could do just for Torment.
This isn’t the case for other conditions, particularly Bleed and Vulnerability. A condition Thief is pretty much a Death Blossom spammer – all Bleed. And Might/Vulnerability builds abound on every profession.
But where are the dedicated Tormenters?
Why is there a Rune of Tormenting and Sigil of Tormenting, when using them would mean sacrificing so much for so little? (no one takes a full Torment build for obvious reasons – it just doesn’t exceed that “threshold” of usability).
I think, of all the things that could be done to improve it, the simplest and most straightforward thing to do would be to add some more Torment application to the base skills of the Mesmer.
No it’s not.
How can you call having one skill (on an 8 second cd.), that is also a PASSIVE block, “strong”.
While we’re at it, let’s give a Phantasm a Torment on hit as well – like maybe the Swordsman or Defender.
But then it would make more sense for Torment to work like Burning – because if you can’t actually stack Torment up to 25, like you can with Bleeding and Confusion, then what’s the point in having a condition that stacks in intensity?
We will never get a full 25 stacks of Torment on a target because there simply aren’t enough skills that apply Torment, particularly active skills, like Impale. So it simply doesn’t make sense to treat Torment like a skill that stacks, such as Bleeding.
Raise it’s damage some, and make it a single stack, like Burning/Poison.
The other problem with that, and I know from experience because I use them, is that if you’re going to “supplement” Torment with Sigil of Tormenting and Runes of Tormenting, then you’re investing in Torment at the cost of ignoring other conditions – so it ought to be worthwhile, but it isn’t, for the simpler reason that we don’t have enough ways to apply it.
Or, to put it another way, in the current meta, who actually uses Sigil of Torment an Runes of Torment? Probably almost no one, except the terminally curious (like myself), because it has terrible roi compared to other options.
You have to consider what you’re giving up in addition to what you’re getting, and go “full Torment” isn’t as good as say, going full Confusion/Retaliation.
(edited by ipan.4356)
Warriors also have bleed on auto-attack, thieves get poison on auto-attack.
Torment is a particularly Mesmerish and Necromancerish condition.
Having at least 1, if not 2, weapons that apply a single stack of Torment on auto-attack (it could even be a short duration stack, like 3-5 seconds) makes perfect sense.
And the weapons that it makes the most sense on are main hand Sword and Scepter.
Or, to put this another way entirely, Warriors have Impale (which adds 5 stacks of Torment on a 15 sec. CD), so why can’t Mesmer’s have a single stack of Torment added to an auto-attack chain?
Alternatively, Torment could be changed to stack in duration, like burning, rather than intensity, like bleeding.
That’s my point – there’s but ONE skill in our entire repertoire that applies Torment – and it’s PASSIVE – it only works on a block, which is fine, I like the skill, but I’d also like an ATTACK that applies Torment.
You can’t really make a Torment based build, now can you? (Scepter 2 is on an 8 sec. CD)
What do you get significant stacks of Torment from though?
As far as I can tell, there’s only one skill that applies Torment, Illusionary Counter.
In addition to that, you can get a Sigil of Tormenting, which only applies a single stack of Torment (AoE, yes, but only one every 7 seconds).
You can also get Runes of Tormenting, but you then you are bound to only get those stacks (and it’s only 2) on a Heal.
I use both of these, and the thing is, if I were to make a “Torment Build”, I’d be screwed, simply because there aren’t enough options to apply Torment.
(edited by ipan.4356)
Actually, after further investigation, I think the problem is that there are actually too few ways to apply stacks of Torment – unlike Bleeding, which many classes can apply tons of stacks, there are simply few ways to get Torment.
I think that maybe Torment could be added to the main hand Sword or Scepter auto-attack chains.
Also, it would be neat to add a stack or two of Torment to Mind Wrack or Diversion (maybe with a minor trait?)
(edited by ipan.4356)