Guild Wars 2

No.

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JackDaniels.1697:

So let me get this straight, veteran players have been wanting more hardcore content implemented to this game because they felt that it is too casual and that it didn’t feel challenging enough, that it was too faceroll, and that progression didn’t feel all that good because you got pretty much everything from the start.

So while they didn’t get level 80 endgame content, they did get early game stuff that gives you that progression, that gives you that challenge because you don’t get most of your traits and skills so early on. The game is still casual, but you can’t faceroll through content anymore, at least not early on.

So while it’s not the dungeons and more world bosses made into challenging behemoths, they did so with the leveling and the system they’ve put in place.

It really is all about perspective, and people just don’t seem to understand that they got what they wanted, but just because it’s not in a place where they expected it to be, they think it’s all wrong.

The game has become more challenging in this area, so open your eyes and appreciate it, because this is what you were looking for.

I really am buffled why veteran players complain that leveling is too hard now, when you want more hard kitten in this game…

Anet can’t win.

Ummm, early game content isn’t going to be any more challenging – just more tedious, more of a chore.

Ben K.6238:

Who would have known that people who’d been playing for over a year would care so much about the 1-10 levelling experience?

My feeling is that they care because it speaks volumes about what Anet thinks of the game as a whole.

If this is what we can expect from here forward, then what is there to look forward to?

That’s the real issue.

In isolation, I don’t care that much about the leveling issue itself – leveling is so fast, you’d hardly notice it anyway. Yes, it will be a little bit more boring than before, and it’s also a pointless change to begin with – but you can breeze by it so quickly, you wouldn’t even notice.

The problem is that Anet has shown us their true colors – played their hand for all to see.

This is the kind of move we can expect them to make – this signifies their outlook for the game more than anything they say to us.

The game is doomed to a slow, downward spiral of decreasing players and eventual obscurity.

All because they think they can get away with a tight fisted, short term, money grab style development.

All we want is a great game – we’re even willing to pay for it, whether through paid expansions, or by supporting further development through the gem store.

But Anet will have none of it – this “feature pack” is all we can expect to get from now on – maybe a kittened little LS on the side now and then.

It’s not worth it.

It’s not even worth spending time in a game that goes nowehere.

That’s what a lot of people aren’t getting – it’s not just the impact of one change, but how it reveals the direction of the entire game that determines whether it’s worth a significant investment of time, energy, and money. Because MMO’s aren’t like other games – they are massive time sinks. Some people pour their whole lives into them. What that says about those people, I don’t know – but I do know that people expect something in return for their investment.

And Anet is not giving that.

That is clear now. This is what we can expect for the rest of the game’s lifespan. And it’s probably not enough for most players – which means people will be abandoning it in droves now, which in turn means less money to develop.

It’s a death spiral for MMO’s, and we’ve seen it sooooooo many times now it’s sickening.

It just sucks to see it happen to GW2. But oh well.

There’s other games that have a shot now – Archeage, Star Citizen, Destiny, etc.

And then the Oculus Rift comes out next year, so we’ll see what games will be made exclusively for that. I bet an Oculus MMO would be ridiculous.

Who cares whether it was false advertising, bait and switch, or the hokey pokey?

Anet failed.

They lied even. To our faces.

Tharomir.6985:

More importantly, what mmorpg should I play instead now that I have lost my faith in GW2?

Archeage
Star Citizen
EQN
Destiny

Flood Control: Please wait 1800 seconds between posts!

The real issue is that this underlines Anet’s vision and direction with the game.

No single change, by itself, would cause me to quit – as I have already leveled 7 characters to 80, and my 8th, an Enginner, is already 35 – just about past all this non-sense.

The problem is that it really highlights Anet’s philosophy towards game design in general, and I don’t like it.

Instead of releasing new content and revamping old content to be more challenging and rewarding, they are just looking for ways to lure new customers into the gem store.

This patch, more than anything they say, really shows where their mind is at in terms of game development.

The game isn’t getting better – it’s getting dumber.

/Time to move on.

What do I think of the new patch?

/uninstalled

All smoke and mirrors.

I just uninstalled – gonna go play some Diablo 3, and Skyrim to pass the time until Star Citizen comes out.

See you all later, good luck.

Peace out.

I’m actually going to go back to Diablo 3 for a while, until something more interesting comes out.

Well, at least it is absolutely, abundantly clear now what Anet intends to do with the game.

These changes highlight their direction and focus extremely clearly, so at least we are no longer left wondering about it.

/uninstalled.

Hello Archeage, hello Star Citizen.

It’s another clear indication that Anet is focused on trying to rope in new players instead of retaining old players.

New players (for the first year, maybe two at most) are their main source of income.

As a player ages, they spend less money (presumably because they’ve done everything in the game, and there is no new content coming out, so gem store purchases level off around this time).

It therefore makes sense to try and do what you can to bring in fresh blood – people who are not burned out on the game, rather than attempt to retain people who are not spending money any more (because the work required to create the content that would keep those ‘veterans’ and get them to spend more far exceeds the work necessary to pull in a new crowd of naive players).

It all makes sense now – Anet is focused on a short life cycle – pull in new players at a constant rate, many of which will spend at least a couple hundred dollars, and abandon everyone who’s played for a year or more.

When viewed in this light, their entire direction and focus makes much more sense.

They have no interest in veteran players, or player retention – it’s all about the short term fix – the player who will spend a bit in the beginning, as they are fascinated by some of the things Anet has done well, like art direction.

It’s like a haunted house at Halloween – as short, thrill filled walk that’s over too soon, but was fun while it lasted.

If you are at “end game” you should just quit – this game is not for you.

To be honest, I thought GW2 was the greatest MMO I’d ever played -until I hit 80…on 7 different characters.

Leveling up through the world was neat – there is so much immersive stuff to see, so much beautiful scenery.

But once you’ve done all that – once you have the bag of potato chips – what else is there?

Nothing.

So you move on. And most importantly, you quit spending cash in the gem shop. I bet Anet has a graph of not only how much money people spend, but where exactly in their GW2 career they spend it, and it probably shows that players spending drops off over time. It’s highest in the beginning (when they are still thrilled with the game), and very quickly tapers, as they realize how little Anet is actually offering.

Therefore, why do anything to retain players? It’s more profitable to rope as many new players, who spend more, and let everyone else out the back door.

I’ve spent roughly $200 on the game in the last year – and played just over 1K hours – that comes out to approximately 20 cents per hour – which is not bad for dollar value. I’d say about 700 of those hours were really fun (the beginning of the game) and about 300 or so were just mindless ‘preparing to have fun’ farming, thinking that new content was coming, so I wanted to level alts and gear up for it – but then it never came. So, even if I only count my ‘fun’ hours, I still get about 27 1/2 cents per hour. How many times have you spent a quarter or less in an arcade? Never, right? So, one could argue I got my money’s worth – I just wish I could get the 300 hours I spent doing nothing back. If Anet had been more honest about their direction, then I would have stopped after leveling my 3rd alt to 80 and moved on. But they can’t be honest about this, because it would discourage some spending (I primarily bought utility stuff, like bank slots, char slots, etc. – I probably wouldn’t have bought the deluxe edition of the game if I knew what I know now, and I would have discouraged my gf from buying any cosmetic items).

The only danger is in if it backfires from negative press.

I think I’m pretty much done with this game – just waiting on something else to come out.

I signed up for the Archeage open beta, hopefully that will come soon.

I never said it was a good reason – I simply said it was (most likely) the reason that Anet doesn’t want kits to be invisible.

I agree, that for all practical purposes, especially in PvP or WvWvW, those packs are impossible to identify anyway, unless your opponent is standing still.

But, I imagine that visibility is the reason Anet won’t change it. If you can’t hide any other weapon, then why should you be able to hide the kits?

(1800 seconds later)

I don’t want to ‘farm’ at all.

Ever.

That word should not be part of gaming.

I am not a hamster, kitten it.

(1800 seconds later)

Dungeons should be like the open world zones unto themselves.

I don’t care if they’re instanced or not – I like both styles (open world and instanced), but in size and scope every dungeon should have been built the same as an entire open world map/zone.

“Difficulty” is a nebulous term.

An encounter can be difficult for 30 seconds – it could require extreme hand eye coordination and perfect timing.

Another encounter could be “difficult” because it requires endurance – 30 minutes of systematically wearing down an opponent that can’t really defeat you (no 1-shots), but through sheer persistence, might make you slip more often as you get tired (hand cramps up, etc.)

Another encounter might be difficult in yet another way – it might be ‘impossible’, right up until you figure out the exact way to do it (like a lot of jumping puzzles are). As soon as you figure it out, which was always possible from the very first try, it’s suddenly ‘easy’, but until then it was ‘nigh impossible’.

And then there’s puzzles that require a little intelligence – DDO had a few of these, like moving blocks around the room until they fit a certain pattern and open a secret door – stuff like that.

There’s clue hunts, that you have to infer from character dialogue.

To top it all off, different players find different kinds of content difficult or not. What’s difficult to one, might be easy to another.

And there’s different skill levels on top of that. Yes, some people are just better at doing certain things. Some are really good at PvP. Others at hard PvE. Some aren’t very good at much.

An MMO attempts to provide as many options for as many different kinds of people as possible – it tries to appeal to a broad audience, and this is both it’s curse and it’s blessing.

It attempts to be a wide, wide world – where a diverse range of players come together to do stuff.

I haven’t even mentioned the exploration/immersion players – who do things like goating, and love just the thrill of reaching places – mountaintops, the bottom of the ocean – whatever. Just getting there to see the view (and maybe kill a few monsters along the way) are the reward itself.

I am one of those players.

In GW2, it feels like the exploration player got the least bang for his buck.

It’s true that all the other game modes have their issues – PvP doesn’t get content updates enough, WvWvW suffers from an inability to move beyond the zerg in most cases (even with the occasional ‘roaming’), and Dungeons are simplistic affairs that are completely linear and on rails – really just an extension of the Personal Story.

The Open World is interesting the first play through or seven – despite the odd choice of rectangular, gated ‘zones’ that are highly unrealistic and immersion breaking.

They’re still incredibly beautiful, even if they’re not particularly challenging (though challenges can be found here and there).

Tyria is small-ish and cramped. It’s trivial to explore everything (except WvWvW).

Once you’ve made it all the way through the zones, there’s little else to do.

I guess, in short, what I’m saying is that there seems to be little replayability, for the exploration/immersion style player.

Which leaves PvP and WvWvW – which is fine I guess, but I hear that has problems too.

Zoso.8279:

And running dungeons ARE challenging but people play the game the way they want. When you run with people who tell you “do this” “stand here” “run here and hit with 1 here” the dungeons were not designed at least I don’t think to be run that way IMO. People do it because it makes it easier that is on the community not the designers (maybe the designers can change some things but people will always find exploits or an easier more tedious way to do it). And when people don’t want to run the dungeon that way they get grief HARD from the other players. So we can’t get mad EotM is turning into a Karma train because WE are turning it into that type of map.

The problem is that people do that because they can, and because it has some kind of payoff (saves time usually).

And then, it becomes a social ‘norm’ – and if you don’t play that way, you are excluded from this content (normally what happens is you get flamed by the player who wants you to conform to the formulaic playstyle that has been set out by those who have already mastered this and want you to do the same).

So, through social pressure, everyone does the same thing, diversity goes downhill, and the game degenerates into a mindless farming exercise.

Farm Wars 2.

Although I didn’t get into GW2 until about a year into the game (I had planned on getting it at release, then I didn’t have a decent computer that could do more than internet for about a year), I am willing to bet that those dungeons were a lot more fun at the beginning.

I bet the first month or two were awesome.

But anyway, I think what every secretly wishes is that someone can create a dungeon that cannot be broken like that by the players.

To do that is going to require some kind of randomization of content – players need something they cannot predict or learn completely – of course, experience should always give you an edge, that’s what experience is for – but it should never allow you to faceroll everything mindlessly, which is kinda where we’re at now.

It trivializes the content., which leads to declining participation. Changing the carrots (rewards) endlessly, usually does little to improve the situation – when people get bored, they’re bored, and no amount of enticement will make old, broken content any more interesting.

So that’s why Anet is probably focusing on new players – it’s exactly the same tactic that phone company’s use – sweet deals for new subscribers, nothing for old customers. Make joining up really attractive – they’ll even pay your cancellation fee at the old company!!!

But they will do nothing to retain players, because it’s actually more profitable to just keep attracting new one’s and letting old one’s go (to a new game).

I think that’s the stage we’re in with GW2 – Anet is putting more effort into players who haven’t experienced any of the content yet, who will still find most of it novel (as I did this last year – GW2 was absolutely amazing when it was all still new – but now I’ve levelled 7 characters to 80, seen a couple dungeons, defeated Zhaitan, done a couple LS’s…..and that’s about all there is).

So – I think that’s the bottom line.

If you’ve really done everything you think is actually fun in this game, and you’re tired of it – get a new game.

Maybe if you come back in a year, there might be enough new content again that you’ll find the experience completely new.

The question is whether or not GW2 can survive that kind of cycle, and whether or not something even more innovative (Archeage, Star Citizen, Oculus Rift, Destiny, etc.) removes GW2’s chances.

Only time will tell.

Vayne.8563:

qbalrog.8017:

What I look for in end-game is variety. I’d prefer truly randomized content where the fights aren’t scripted and good play is required for success (as opposed to endless repetition to learn arbitrary boss mechanics). Alternately, I’ll accept a wide variety of things to do, some combination of alt-leveling, exploration, farming (like RIFT’s artifacts), and pvp.

What I won’t do is run the same scripted battles over and over again. WoW cured me of that

I don’t care about end-game gear, aside from aesthetics, especially when the next expansion makes all that gear-grind worthless.

I do like GW2 where I can take my max level character and still be (somewhat) at level anywhere in the world. And I find pvp interesting (although not wvwvw- too much zerg v zerg).

Random mechanics come with a price. You can’t script stuff, so it’s just spawning random guys.

If you make something difficult but not scripted most people won’t touch it. So, random becomes generic, because nothing is uique. You get different mobs, but they all have to attack in roughly the same way.

But I agree with you. I don’t like scripted bosses.

The real trick is to combine scripted events with a constrained set of randomized events or abilities.

For example, you could have a boss that uses cold attacks and has lots of Chill.

When players trigger it’s event, it’s attacks are chosen from a small pool of attacks that all have chill, but function in slightly different ways (maybe one is a slow ground targeted AoE, another is a bouncing projectile, and yet a third is a cone).

You always know that this boss is going to chill you, but you won’t be sure of exactly how it’s going to attack until you face it.

Furthermore, if it had 3 different attacks, and all of them were chosen from a constrained, but random pool, then it makes it even more variable.

The above of course is a really simplistic idea, but illustrates how you could use both pre-generated scripted content in tandem with randomized or procedural content.

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Dungeons are very formulaic – not at all based on exploration.

Every time I go into a dungeon, it’s “do this”..“ok, now do this”.

“Stand here”, “kill this”, “now move to this room”, “stand here”.

That’s all it is, most of the time.

It’s incredibly linear and formulaic, and not much fun at all.

If dungeons were about exploring Tyria’s vast, dark underworld, then I bet more people would do it.

But, the only reason to do them at all is to get tokens for skins – otherwise, they’re some of the least interesting content in the game.

I don’t agree with a lot of the stuff you say, but this is one of the reasons I don’t do dungeons. I don’t care as much about the money. I care about having fun.

Open World stuff is just more engaging – which is one reason why I wish they’d convert dungeons to open world (and make them 5x bigger).

The fun in dungeons is the spelunking aspext. The idea of going into musty old caves, dank catacombs beneath ancient cities, lava tunnels in extinct (hopefully) volcanoes.

And seeing what’s there.

Dungeons that go on…and on…and on…and on…and on. Dungeons that you have to camp in because you cannot possibly “complete” (if such a thing were even possible to begin with) in a single night, and probably not in three.

Dungeons should be week long (maybe even month long) forays into the unknown.

I said this in the dungeon sub-forum, but I believe that dungeons should be, at bare minimum, the size of Divinity’s Reach. And that would be just the smallest of them. And open world, too.

There should be no one clear path to “complete” it either, your goals should be your own – maybe there are 5 or 6 bosses spread out all over the “dungeon”, but you can go do whatever you want. They should have dozens of DE’s.

Basically, I consider the whole of Orr to be one massive open-air dungeon.

Now, if we could also get zones that big that are completely underneath the ground. IN other words, “dungeons” underneath all the major cities, underneath Orr, underneath….well, wherever it is dungeons go.

That’s what a dungeon is to me – it’s like a mini-city in itself, that takes forever to explore.

The thing about it being instanced to me is not something I care about one way or another – I do believe that the difficulty (and rewards) should scale, so that they (at least in theory) soloable.

I detest the current combat mechanics, I hate Defiance and Unshakeable, and I hate the obscenely high health pools, the 1-shot mechanics, but otherwise predictable and formulaic way all enemies in dungeons are designed – they are not “difficult” in the sense of needing some skill and strategy (and forethought) to kill – they are “difficult” in the sense that there is usually a set way to do it, and slight deviation means wiping. It means slip you die and have to respawn, because the 1-shot mechanics take you out quickly. But as long as you’ve memorized the sequence of each boss, and the exploit, then you’re fine and you faceroll the whole thing (stealth to skip trash mobs, dodge mechanic to avoid almost everything, DPS the hell out of it all).

It’s just formulaic, linear, and short.

I was kinda hoping for an “underworld” the same size (or larger) as the “overworld” of Tyria.

Dungeons are very formulaic – not at all based on exploration.

Every time I go into a dungeon, it’s “do this”..“ok, now do this”.

“Stand here”, “kill this”, “now move to this room”, “stand here”.

That’s all it is, most of the time.

It’s incredibly linear and formulaic, and not much fun at all.

If dungeons were about exploring Tyria’s vast, dark underworld, then I bet more people would do it.

But, the only reason to do them at all is to get tokens for skins – otherwise, they’re some of the least interesting content in the game.

I think people often confuse “hard” with “tedious”.

I find some of the jumping puzzles hard. They would probably be easier with a game controller, but with a mouse and this awkward camera and some of the jerky movement of the character, some of them can be challenging at times.

On the other hand, I can go to Cursed Shore and kill undead for Heavy Moldy Bags, and sell those bags to get a decent amount of money for them.

This isn’t hard.

It does try my patience though.

Or, I can go play the same dungeon over and over again, selling all my yellows and mats for more gold.

This isn’t “hard” either – it’s just tedious.

I can work on map completion (I’m now up to 93%, having done everything except WvWvW zones) – and most of it was extremely simple – not challenging at all. It took a few weeks though.

Tedious isn’t hard. It’s just tedious.

I welcome new content.

I welcome challenging content.

I don’t welcome tedium.

Manuhell.2759:

…albeit, having legendary weapons effects properly working with kits wouldn’t be that bad…

Anyway, the whole “backpack as visual cue” makes no sense. Any other class just has the weapons on their hands. So should engineers.
You don’t need an huge sheath on the back of a warrior to tell that they’re using a greatsword. You don’t need an huge backpack on the back of an engi to tell thtat they’re using a flamethrower.

I’ll grant the flamethrower and elixir gun (even though they look similar).

I’ll even grant that typically in PvP, people don’t really have time to look at things like this, and that in a zerg you can’t see details like this anyway due to the explosion of particle effects everywhere.

But, what about grenades and bombs?

I think the problem is that it’s difficult to justify making an exception for Engineers, when every other weapon in the game is visible for a reason.

Can I hide my main hand sword? Then why should Engi’s be able to hide kits?

All it means is that they didn’t design dungeons correctly to begin with.

If the content was fun and engaging, people would be doing it.

I just want new content.

The game doesn’t expand – in any direction – as much as it should.

New maps
New dungeons
New PvP
New WvWvW
New class
New race
New weapons
New skills (aside from some lame healing skills that no one uses anyway)

I don’t care if they release it as an expansion, or through LS supported by gem shop.

Without new content, my time is better invested elsewhere.

I don’t know about “end game content”…

How about any content at all?

I think the best argument is that weapons have different skins, so should kits.

But I really doubt you’re going to get complete invisibility, for the reasons I stated above.

The reason that you cannot hide the kits is that they need to be visible to other players – it’s a PvP thing.

Just as your weapon is visible to other players, so that they might be able to anticipate what you are going to do based on what weapon you are wielding, the kits serve the same purpose.

It’s about visibility, which is why it will never change.

I suppose they could change it for PvE only, but one can only guess if they think doing the work is worthwhile for one playmode

That said, a general graphic update wouldn’t be a terrible thing.

Is there an expansion coming or not?

Andred.1087:

Nerelith.7360:

laokoko.7403:

And OP is totally right, many of their changes are related on pushing people to buy gems. Im’ not sure why that is surprising.

If the game is fun to play, then the developers should not HAVE to push anyone to buy gems. You will naturally desire to buy gems, without needing to be pushed at the gem store.

Microtransactions done right

Creating an artificial way to push players to buy gems, is a sign you are doing it wrong.

No, it’s a sign that you understand marketing. In what (realistic) scenario would not pushing people to buy gems make more or even as much money as doing it?

The problem is that it often has the opposite effect.

The whole thing about ‘leading a horse to water’.

Another poster above me has it about right too: when you make an excellent game, people flock to it and will spend money (just to support it – this is how crowdfunding works).

When you make a sub-par game, and invent gimmicks that give people little option but to spend money, you’ve in a sense created a casino.

Do you gamble? Do you ever play slot machines? Those are games too, you know. Simple games of chance. Pull the lever, watch the wheels go round, and you win or you lose.

But they’re not very much fun. They’re not very skilled. And the odds suck, so the rewards are not very good either.

Casino’s don’t design their games to be fun, they design them around tested Skinner box principles – give just enough to hook the ‘greed’ part of a person’s brain so they keep coming back for more, looking for that big score.

And GW2 is appearing to be built along similar lines – now, keep in mind, it’s just a comparison. GW2 is not a literal casino – I am saying that it appears as if the same underlying psychological principles are being used in it’s content development.

But it’s always short term profit opposed to long term investment. While this may make them some dough immediately, it will also poison the entire game, making it stale, un-fun, and a total drag. It becomes a monotonous chore, a second job. A compulsion you’re never quite sure you can’t quit.

If the game goes that way, those of us who have already been there and done that will quit – we’ve been on the hamster wheel plenty times already, and we’re immune to the false promises that were used to suck us in the first time (this is pretty much standard for just about every MMO now – the “Korean grindfest WoW clones” being the most obvious, visible examples) – but just about all of them suffer from some version of this, including WoW.

If GW2 manages to pull itself away from that pattern, THEN it will actually be a game worth investing in.

To do that they need to release very large amounts of content, in the form of opening up additional maps/zones, creating a new class, maybe a new race, introducing some new weapon choices, polishing the core gameplay, revamping old dungeons, creating new dungeons.

That’s just the basic stuff that every MMO ought to do.

I think Anet could take it even further, by continuing to refine the LS at the SAME TIME as they do all of the above.

If they did that, I’d spend a lot more money here.

I quit spending money because I see absolutely no evidence that they plan to do any of this, and until they do, my wallet (and many others) is closed.

Oh, I still log in from time to time – I’m actually still working on my first world completion – but it’s not serious. I’m just wasting time between doing other things.

By the time the Oculus Rift is here, if GW2 hasn’t shaped up, I fear it will be lost. It won’t disappear immediately – few MMO’s do, and you can see all kinds of washed out MMO’s that are still around with a minimal playerbase.

But it won’t be in the Top 5 anymore – and probably not the Top 10 either. In fact, I’ll be surprised if it’s in the Top 20.

So, they need to make their world bigger. Much, much bigger.

It’s do or die time.

Place your bets.

Simplest reason:

Reusing models over and over is cheaper.

This kind of white knighting is the most toxic sort of post.

Svarty.8019:

This:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/09/02/flameseeker-chronicles-whats-next-for-guild-wars-2/

Great article.

I liked this paragraph:

The output of the living world releases are consistent with a team working with less than the studio’s full resources. This is another issue where greater transparency would go a long way toward reassuring players because the distinction here is huge: If the living world is meant to take the place of an expansion, it’s not living up to that job and the fact that ArenaNet’s resources seem stretched thin by it is worrying. Conversely, if the living world content is meant to tide us over between expansions, it’s not only working well but is pretty kitten ed impressive. The problem is that we don’t know which it is, and the vast expanse of uncertainty between those two possibilities explains a lot of the hostility toward the living world in general.

My prediction:

Old school MMO’s (and games in general) are going to seriously recede into the background when the Oculus Rift is released next year.

I just won’t have time to waste on a boring retro game like GW2 (and many other games, for that matter like Starcraft 2 or Diablo 3) because the Oculus will take up all my time.

Unless GW2 can somehow manage to port itself into the Oculus – in which case it might be enough of a radical revamp to warrant sticking with it awhile longer.

Elsdragon.5109:

You do realize that if you’re requesting all that at once, it’ll probably take them a while to dish out (especially more so when you’re also expecting them to continue with the regular updates).

They should have had all of that by the 2-year mark, that’s the point.

This is what they should be releasing EVERY two years – even if it’s spread out over the entire two year period.

We’ve had two years of GW2, and we’re nowhere close to that level of content being released.

I’d give them good marks if they were even trying to do that – say, if they had released 5 new maps, and had definite plans for a new class.

But, and here’s the truly salient point: not only are we nowhere even remotely close to what I described above, Anet has been fairly clear that they’re not going to do that, either.

So where does that leave people like me who want lots more content?

Treading water in-game until something better comes along.

I won’t spend any more money on this game until Anet either releases a level of content I described above, or tells us in absolutely clear terms that they are working on all of that and will release it very soon, or that they have a plan to release the same amount of content (10+ maps, new class, new race, new weapons, new dungeons, core systems revamped) over the next year.

My issue isn’t so much with exactly how they release it and more with the fact that they have shown every indication that they are not going to. At all.

Are we even going to get a fraction of what I listed above?

I doubt it – and that’s the problem.

Anet is milking us – but people are waking up to this fact.

I think they could release an “expansion” via the Living Story – they just need to release more of it.

And by “more” I mean more maps/zones (Dry Top is just too small or “not enough” to be considered an expansions worth)

Enough would be the entire Magus Falls region – or Ring of Fire – or Verdant Woodlands – or Maguuma.

Basically, 10+ maps (and honestly, could go as high as 15-20).

That’s what I’d consider an “expansions” worth of maps – minimum 10, but 15-20 would be nice.

In ADDITION to the new maps, there ought to be (again, at minimum) 1 new class, 1 new weapon for each class, perhaps a new playable race, and tons of new utility skills.

Also, (again, bare minimum) there should be 1 new dungeon per major region already in the game (this would be Kryta, Ascalon, Maguuma? (Asura/Sylvari areas), Shiverpeaks as well as new dungeons for whatever region just opened up. (probably 2-3 would be acceptable).

All of this is in ADDITION to making drastic, but needed, changes to core systems – revamping combat, PvP, making enemies more difficult in new and interesting ways and even adding tons of new enemies.

And creating new DE’s for old areas – as well as CONTINUING to polish and refine the old areas like they are now (this is perhaps the one thing I can complement Anet on – when I revisit old areas, I often find something new, and the little details really keep the world fresh – I hope the keep doing this, and maybe even increase the pace just a little).

I’m going to use Divinity’s Reach just as a baseline for how large the smallest dungeons in the game ought to be.

In terms of actual real estate, all dungeons should cover at least as much ground as Divinity’s Reach, and many should be even larger than that.

In addition, they should get rid of these linear story paths – and make dungeons truly exploration based – they should just be places you go to delve as deep as you can, facing whatever challenges you find along the way.

I don’t like how the dungeons resembled personal story – and how the actual path you take is just go from one room to the next, kill a few things, go to the next room.

I want vast – VAST – cavern complexes and castles. Going miles into the earth.

And I want to be able to log out inside a dungeon and resume when I log back in. Dungeons could take several days to explore the entirety of them.

Also, they should have small DE’s just like the open world.

I’d be willing to support the game by buying cosmetic (and utilitarian) items in the Gem store if they game world was expanding.

That is, I don’t buy that stuff necessarily for itself (though some of it is cool – and some of it is necessary, like bank tabs and character slots) – but I consider it to be down payment on the expansion of the world. It’s just a different way of paying for it.

The problem is that Anet hasn’t delivered any serious expansion of the world, so I see no reason to spend any more money on it.

Until they do, I won’t.

I know that there is probably at least 1/3, and maybe up to 1/2 of the player base that feels this way.

We are the “exploration” players – the one’s that like opening new areas, finding new things, killing new monsters. We get less enjoyment out of seeing the same areas over and over (though we do some of that). Usually, we are willing to wait up to 2 years for an expansion, because it often takes us that long to finish previous content, get our characters ready (gear and whatnot), and put aside time for other games and real life stuff.

By the end of two years, any MMO should have an expansion ready – regardless of how they choose to release it.

I paid the box price for “vanilla” GW2. I bought some stuff in the gem shop (3 extra character slots, bank tab, premium edition (for the mistwolf) plus my gf bought some extra cosmetics).

These purchases were done with the expectation that they essentially crowdfunded the next expansion of content in an indirect manner.

Anet got their initial investment back from the box price of the game – gem shop sales should be funding an expansion.

The fact that this doesn’t appear to be the case is what’s angering so many people.

Make an expansion Anet – or we’ll leave.

Yes, that’s an ultimatum.

Best advice I can give Anet: suck it up buttercup.

It’s unlikely to fade away into nothing – worse games then this hold on for a long time.

It definitely feels like it’s ‘withering on the vine’ though – very little new content added to the game, seems a bit schizoid in it’s direction – kinda all over the place.

I’ve given up.

I log in every once in a while when I’m bored, but I will never give Anet another penny.

To do so, would take a complete 180 from them.

They would have to release TONS of new content – entirely new regions to play in, new class or two, new playable race, new dungeons.

Some major changes to the combat system, to the open world, to dungeons.

Basically, this game practically needs a reboot.

100% of dev feedback suggests they are no going to do this.

They only want suggestions on really minor things.

Every indication shows they are NOT adding any major content updates or expansions or any major overhauls of core gameplay.

They are staying the course.

I’ve been slowly working on getting map complete (at 83%) now – but really I’m just wasting time when I have nothing else to do.

I used to buy stuff, both practical and cosmetic – it was my way of supporting the game, in hopes that the revenue would fund more content.

But it didn’t.

Instead of new content, we just get the run around.

So I stop buying stuff.

It’s that simple.

Either make a bunch of new content, or you get no money from me.

I was about to create a post describing in detail all of the things they could do to fix this game….

Then I realized that it was futile – Anet will not make any radical changes to the game.

They might listen to some minor changes.

But if you’re looking for them to make major changes in direction – it’s not happening.

They just don’t see the writing on the wall, and when they do, it will be too late to do anything about it, as everyone will have left.

GW2 looks great because of it’s artists, not because of it’s engine.

Tachenon.5270:

Well, personally, I feel like this game is on the endangered species list, where I do not want it to be, I hasten to add, and I feel a big part of the reason is anet’s almost pathological dedication to giving us more Living Story instead of, oh, I don’t know, an expansion. Evidence? It’s all over the forums.

As my little voice put it, just the other day, “Oh, look, anet cares again.” Which was followed by a pitch perfect rendition of Fluttershy’s trademark ‘yay.’

Red names chatting up a storm! Almost as though someone higher up on the food chain noticed that the grumpiness in regard to GW2 was threatening to spread beyond the purview of the official forums (where it can be readily contained and con*trolled*), which caused this higher up someone to scowl meaningfully at those farther down. Or maybe it was just gas. We can surely thank SAB for this, and/or that ill-fated interview. Whatever it was, it seems to have lit a fire under some dev-ine bottoms, and now our beloved devs are back to singing for their supper. Or at least putting on a show of it. More CDIs! Yay.

In the midst of all this hubbub, I am uncomfortably reminded of Cryptic’s last days with City of Heroes, before they sold out to NCSoft. It seemed like pretty much everything the players wanted was something the Cryptic devs said would take too much time and effort to do. My go to example: like being able to change the colors of powers. Can my fire blaster has green flames, huh, huh? “No, the colors are baked-in!” When Cryptic was gone, big things started happening. Including – ermahgerd – green flames. Then, irony of ironies, after saving Paragon City, NCSoft turned heel and nuked it. All gone.

But that could never happen here. Could it.

Living Story is a drop in ye olde bucket, and more and more of us out here in the megasuffered wastelands are dying of thirst. Except, of course, for a certain contingent here on the forums who seem to derive some unholy sustenance from poking and prodding at those who dare to complain or ask for more. Wherever there’s a right to be wronged, that’s where you will find them. Wronging rights, right and left.

Yay.

My god, I wish I had your flair for wit and narrative.

Well done.

Flytrap.8075:

ipan.4356:

Diablo 3 also broke records in box sales – and people hated it. The RMAH shut down after a protracted battle.

It’s no surprise at all that GW2 did so well at launch – the issue here is the roadmap, and the fact that we are 2 years in with no major content release.

Just low hanging fruit.

To give them credit, Diablo 3 actually did a decent job of reviving their population and welcoming in new players with, dare I say, an expansion. gasp!

I know, I actually went back and played after RMAH shut down and Reaper came out – it was pretty good, but they need some kind of infinite dungeon.

If all they have is Living Story, then I’m done for good.

Vayne.8563:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

It is what it is. They said it, just repeating what A.Net said earlier. You can ignore their posts and what they say, but that was out there and that was said BEFORE LS1 was out so that was like 6 months into the game.

What deal? People paid for the game already, the deal is done. You make it sound like there is some contract – you bought the game as it was, all the stuff they had added in is extra. The LS is free content not paid content. Would it be nice to have an expansion – yes, but not if it ignores the rest of the story A.Net is spinning out right now. I am really interested to see where it will go.

I’m talking about if people leave the game, revenue dry’s up, servers shut down and merge.

You know, like what happens to 99% of all MMO’s.

Yes, it’s happened to most MMOs….but it hasn’t happened here. There’s a reason for that.

Anet is making enough money as it stands now to keep the servers running for a long long time, and that’s without China.

At some point they must have done something right, no?

That point was nearly 10 years ago when they released GW1.

This game has made almost as much money in two years as Guild Wars 1 did in it’s first six.

Diablo 3 also broke records in box sales – and people hated it. The RMAH shut down after a protracted battle.

It’s no surprise at all that GW2 did so well at launch – the issue here is the roadmap, and the fact that we are 2 years in with no major content release.

Just low hanging fruit.

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

ipan.4356:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Dusty Moon.4382:

sishbob.3987:

Boneheart.3561:

sishbob.3987:

… the Living Story, which is something that the majority of players do not want.

[CITATION NEEDED]

Lemme correct that then. LS is something that a majority of players do not want over content that actually matters and changes the game.

The LS IS changing the game. That is the point – damaged LA, broken WP, Pale Tree maybe dying. Those are definite changes. How would a new chapter (like Prophecies to Factions in GW1) change things? All it would do is move players to a new area and the old area would stay the same.

How do you know the majority of players do not want the LS? Have you asked them or did you just assume because YOU don’t want it? Please state it properly, You don’t want the LS.

Factions gave us, a whole new continent to explore, New Mobs to face, new skills, old skills with a new feel… a new theme. New elites…. new professions.

I cannot say for most since I do not have a citation. But for many…. Living Story is not something even close to an expansion. For many players an expansion doesn’t Just give us new things to do…. it gives us new ways to play..even if we are playing Old things, in old locations, it expands the way we play those things. New professions, weapons, and skills give us new ways to experience Tyria. Living story is a new chapter with the same old characters to an old book. An expansion is a New Book, with new characters set in the old world.

There is a difference, and many, like me, may be tired of what seems to be something done.." on the cheap". LS is Not a substitute for a real expansion, LS may sate til the real expansion arrives. but…it’s buttered crackers… it’s what you serve BEFORE dinner to keep people from starving…. but it is not dinner.

We are not there yet. Cantha is closed off to the rest of the world because of the Elder Dragons. Kill all the Elder Dragons and you may be able to go to Cantha.

Also, that is one part, not the whole part. Again, ignoring the forest while focusing on one tree. There will be no faction fighting in this game because it is not designed for it. You want GW1 and it is still going on.

A.Net said from the beginning they do not want to do an Expansion if at all possible.

You realize that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people, right?

It is what it is. They said it, just repeating what A.Net said earlier. You can ignore their posts and what they say, but that was out there and that was said BEFORE LS1 was out so that was like 6 months into the game.

What deal? People paid for the game already, the deal is done. You make it sound like there is some contract – you bought the game as it was, all the stuff they had added in is extra. The LS is free content not paid content. Would it be nice to have an expansion – yes, but not if it ignores the rest of the story A.Net is spinning out right now. I am really interested to see where it will go.

I’m talking about if people leave the game, revenue dry’s up, servers shut down and merge.

You know, like what happens to 99% of all MMO’s.

Yes, it’s happened to most MMOs….but it hasn’t happened here. There’s a reason for that.

Anet is making enough money as it stands now to keep the servers running for a long long time, and that’s without China.

At some point they must have done something right, no?

We’ll see – in the end, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

All I’m pointing out is what I’ve seen from experience.

MMO’s that ignore what their customers want usually tank – and Anet appears, to may of us, to be taking this same path.

This is all an attempt to avert that from happening.

I don’t think Guild Wars 2 is ignoring what their customers want. They may very well be ignoring what you specifically want and some people like you. But you know, there’s a whole lot of people out there who are looking for what this game offers.

I believe there are enough of us to keep the game going for a long long time.

At the end of the day – the financial reports will speak for themselves.

You can keep telling me I’m off base on my assessment of the state of the game, and the feelings of the playerbase, but you aren’t convincing me.

I see (and feel) massive dissatisfaction with the game – and I am willing to bet that this is reflected in declining cash shop sales.

Anet isn’t going to prove either one of us right with any information, so ultimately, this argument can only be settled when and if the game declines.

No, they aren’t doing “everything they can” to make the game better.

They aren’t releasing tons of new content – like new zones, dungeons and fractals.

The game is stagnant.

The only thing that can fix this is a lot of new content.

Down the road means what, 5 years from now? 10 years from now?

I won’t be playing then.

The whole point is that we’ve already given Anet 2 years to release anything resembling expansion level content, and they haven’t.

2 years is a long time for an MMO not to release anything.

Especially today, when there are always new MMO’s just around the corner.

We’re already “down the road” right now – so where’s the new content?