Guild Wars 2

Wait so the guys that deliberately went for a lord rush against Easy when they had them at 0 points the whole match are complaining about something that their own teammates refute?

I wouldn’t be pessimistic because it’s becoming more obvious every day, especially with templates coming out and bright lights shining on the PvP scene.

The NA tourney is going to really open up a can of worms with the balance element. We’ll see if the comps are what I think they’ll be but if they are its going to be a lot different than the EU tourney.

I’d include evade spamming to this too. Not much point in attacking someone who is going to evade everything you throw at them. Oh, and they run zerker ammy lol GL HF

control effect > burst will get him if you time it right. The trick is timing it right haha.

they get dropped so fast lol so bad

That’s why I am gonna push for splitting PvP as long and hard as I can.

Individual player skill requires risk/reward. There’s hardly any risk to spamming the ground beneath a point that players have to stand on to defend or cap.

All human/sylvari makes sense to me since they’re about the same height and build.

Make a blooper reel of ppl doing that hahahaha

lol I can see why people hate that build, but I think it’s awesome.

I think anyone can be happy with someone who scares the crap out of their home point guy on their team.

Edit: Also playing S/D makes me want to take a shower with all that evade spamming.

I wouldn’t say all Necro builds. Running Spectral Walk and Armor takes care of that, generates life force, gives you a way to disengage if you use it and blink back to range if it gets hot, and if you use DS and hit Armor you can actually absorb a huge amount of damage. Gotta read the opponent though it’s tricky. Also if you know the other team is running condis too, then Plague Signet lets you break out and send their condis back to them.

I agree on Necro stun breaks being pretty bad though the only practical ones are on 60s cooldown and Flesh wurm is so obvious and easy to kill. Other classes have it a lot better, like Guard’s Stand Your Ground lol. 24s aoe stab cooldown when traited XD

Its group vs. group in that situation though. It’s not one guy guarding the fort facing one dude trying to take it haha. That requires different dynamics, and AoE is actually important in that setting. I agree retal takes a lot of strategy out of it, but at the same time tight formations area strategy that has been used in military formations for years.

You’re not gonna see much that’s useful for wvw in 8v8 hotjoins lol. It’s about as unorganized and chaotic as anything can be across ALL MMOs not just GW2.

To be fair though, there are weaknesses in the comps that are putting out all this pressure.

For example, Teldo’s build has no stun break. If you stun lock an Engi in that build they can’t do anything. Necros have no stability access and if they are alone and you have a good CC combo into burst they will get obliterated.

Defektive.7283:

jmatb.6307:

Defektive.7283:

iSylvir.7316:

Only it isn’t like that at all.

Minion Necromancer builds are mediocre at best, and there are better builds for competitive play. Meanwhile, Mesmers have always been clone-centric, and that won’t change, and can’t, without damaging the actual gameplay of Mesmers. Spirit Rangers are pretty strong right now, but there are alternative builds. No one is running the build because it’s giving them minions to do the work for them, they’re doing it because it’s simply the superior build right now.

AoE damage is pretty negligible, as focusing a target should be your priority. Aside from the AoE downed cleave, I don’t really recall anyone going for massive AoE unless they’re fighting over a point, in which case it provides zone control and helps deny enemies from the point; which means the AoE’s are serving their intended purpose.

Do we play the same game?

Ya AoE is so underpowered. Nothing strong about being able to simultaneously attack 3 or 4 ppl at a time in a teamfight from using a couple skills >.>

Gosh L2play Defektive

back into the dungeon for me it seems.

I was joking lol

The apex predator thief build uses no blinds of any shape or form…

Defektive.7283:

iSylvir.7316:

Only it isn’t like that at all.

Minion Necromancer builds are mediocre at best, and there are better builds for competitive play. Meanwhile, Mesmers have always been clone-centric, and that won’t change, and can’t, without damaging the actual gameplay of Mesmers. Spirit Rangers are pretty strong right now, but there are alternative builds. No one is running the build because it’s giving them minions to do the work for them, they’re doing it because it’s simply the superior build right now.

AoE damage is pretty negligible, as focusing a target should be your priority. Aside from the AoE downed cleave, I don’t really recall anyone going for massive AoE unless they’re fighting over a point, in which case it provides zone control and helps deny enemies from the point; which means the AoE’s are serving their intended purpose.

Do we play the same game?

Ya AoE is so underpowered. Nothing strong about being able to simultaneously attack 3 or 4 ppl at a time in a teamfight from using a couple skills >.>

Gosh L2play Defektive

WvW uses PvE’s skills, crafting and guild systems, which is why I suggest they be balanced together. You can transition between those two game modes seamlessly with your crafting and gear.

I don’t think they need to be balanced together because they play so drastically differently. Storming a fort is entirely different than storming a point in PvP.

It already is a maddening difference between game modes.

WvW elites have to relearn many things if they want to be good at PvP. The maps require specific strategies, rotation is totally different, fighting on points forces people to eat damage they normally wouldn’t trying to defend it, there are many more situations that are 1v1 and 2v2, which requires different skills and awareness, and the downed state game is even more important on an individual level.

Also attribute totals are a zero sum game in PvP. Food is nowhere to be found and you have to make builds accordingly.

IV. Balance

I purposely waited on this because it goes without saying and I want people to read the other stuff too lol.

PvP is entirely different than the other two game modes fundamentally. CC is not important in PvE because the meaningful fights in Dungeons feature mobs that are immune to it. CC is incredibly important in PvP; a clutch Banish or Updraft can change an entire match, and Fear is wrecking everyone in PvP in this meta.

1v1 matchups are also incredibly important, which are not the case in WvW outside of small dueling circles. PvP balance needs to be mindful of that, which shows with how evade spamming is the apex predator and apex defender right now with Rangers and Thieves. These kinds of decisions change entire team compositions and strategies, and even go as far as replacing entire classes, like how S/D thief has effectively eliminated Mesmers.

AoE is balanced for all three game modes, which shows with how huge the marks, symbols, and others is in relation to point size. If PvP is separate the team doesn’t have to worry about how their decisions affect WvW and PvE, which have much different needs for AoE. They can make decisions based on how important they want AoE to be in PvP.

We can also take a good hard look at passive elements and where they belong in the tiers between skill levels. Do passive element builds really belong in high level play? I think those types of builds ought to have a ceiling of effectiveness and the more active, timing oriented, and situational use skills have a higher effective output.

Conclusion:

Overall I think that PvP splitting would be the best decision Arenanet makes for the game, especially now with Templates on the way and what I think is going to be a surge of popularity following Pax Prime.

Players like Teldo, Phantaram, Jumper, Caed, Zoose, SupCutie, Mogwow, Gibbly, etc are incredibly fun to watch, which is why the streams are getting more viewers every tourney. A PvP game that is balanced and cultivated to unleash the creative and practical abilities of these people and anyone else with a mind and desire to be great at this game is going to be exactly what everyone expected and expects from Guild Wars 2 PvP.

There would be an adjustment and the balance would be a huge amount of work, but the vision of that kind of PvP scene is too awesome to hold back. I don’t like flooding the forums with text, but this is too important for me to keep to myself.

At this point, after reflecting on the metagame’s problems and benefits over the course of the game, I have come to the conclusion that splitting PvP from PvE and WvW is going to be what’s best for GW2.

I. Why PvE and WvW? Isn’t WvW more like PvP than PvE?

No WvW is not and will never be like PvP. You can use PvE skills, consumables, and the Guild system gives you incentive to play WvW and not PvP. The crafting and guild system provide synergy between PvE and WvW players, which is why the WvW main servers have such enormous communities. They are tapping into this synergy and benefitting from it.

It is not fair to balance for all three considering that PvP is, at most, 8v8, and the majority of the meaningful matches by over 95% are 5v5. In WvW there are much, much bigger engagements and even the smaller ones are bigger in most cases. While there are small communities of roamers and squads, massive engagements are the motif there.

This would allow the problems with balance in those spheres to be handled more appropriately and without as much “Well that would make PvP broken if we did that” and vice versa. Creating red tape, which this type of strategy is screaming indirectly at max volume, is not productive

II. New Player Adjustment

This point is being rendered moot by templates, which have been hinted at being on the way. If a new player has an aggressive and attrition build that they can choose from when they log in for the first time, they have the tools they need to take it slow and then speed it up. If there are text boxes included that can provide notes or tips, then that alleviates the adjustment even more, letting whoever makes the template give the reader tips about what’s different than PvE/WvW, what abilities are the most important, who your best targets are and who to avoid, etc. They could link to guide sites like www.intothemists.com/guides

I think it’s being naive to think that someone coming into PvP is going to be completely flabbergasted if the skills are slightly different than PvE. While there is some learning to do, there already is quite a bit of a difference in PvP than builds you run in other game modes. There’s no reason to learn a bunker guardian build in WvW, even though it’s essential in PvP. Grenades are terrible in WvW even though they are quite strong in PvP for Engineers. Warriors who run condis do well in WvW despite their non existence in tPvP at high levels of play.

III. Guild Support

There is literally no incentive to make a PvP guild other than just social organization. A PvP Influence system could have your guild use unique finishers, get unique armor, consumables, and any number of cool ideas.

How this wasn’t part of the launch I don’t know, but it can be an incentive would give PvE and WvW guilds a reason to PvP that doesn’t make it counterproductive. There could be an area they focus on within the PvP System that provides cross game type bonuses. There is a huge population in both PvE and WvW that is not being given any incentive to play PvP other than just filling the time gap or because they want to.

That isn’t enough.

I think this discussion and many other issues will be solved by splitting PvP and PvE/WvW from each other.

I know it’s a sacred cow that keeps being called “very unlikely” and “upsetting to new PvP players” but the reality is that decision, which would be like taking a nail out of your foot, would be a short term issue that becomes a long term solution.

PvE and WvW can be balanced together because the Guild and Crafting systems are in synergy. You can make consumables and benefit from PvE skills there.

PvP being separate would allow for their own Guild System, balancing, rewards, and cross-game type incentives that could bridge the gap without forcing each other’s problems down their throats.

Vitality can be a better attribute with 1% condi dmg reduction per 100 points invested. That would be small enough to be balanced, but significant enough to warrant using the attribute in PvP, which currently has little incentive.

SPvP is where you do your dailies. It absolutely blows my mind that people do solo Q and try to fit their daily captures in there ><. I think it would be better to just not give daily credit in TPvP it’s not the place to be giving people incentive to suck.

Yeah there are some pretty stupid calls people make. Far point is not friendly to 90% of the specs people run in this game, probably more so. You have to be able to disengage very well to do that successfully.

Evade spamming as a whole needs to be reevaluated. It makes fighting both Spirit Rangers and S/D thief stupid b/c the only counters to them are more precise evade spamming.

Necros were pretty strong too, but at least they were getting downed with focus fire. Anybody who can run Zerker ammy and be more capable of handling focus fire than someone in Clerics/Soldiers ought to be on the nerf chopping block.

I think we all saw today in the tournament just how kittened OP S/D thief is.

lol i love the way you say that. stupid ppl are stupid.

its going a longer distance with less people than they have in their territory, and they think its a good idea hahaha.

we all saw what happened when TP or CC wiped – they waited, grouped up, and pushed hard together. Totally understand that frustration.

EDIT: I can understand wanting to push three points. Cruuk and Teldo do that pretty well. It’s about doing it at the right time.

Yeah people keep saying bring vit, bring condi cleanse.

It doesn’t work. It buys you a couple seconds that you ought to have been spending CCing and attacking the guy.

I’ve been bringing Knights ammy on my shatter spec that I’m using with Torch for condi cleanse with Null Field. It’s decent against necros with Signet of Domination, but I only have decoy and I have a short window to get the guy down before his DS becomes too big.

That’s where the survivability doesn’t help you. They will outlast you, they will outDPS you, and they didn’t earn it.

range reduction wouldn’t force you to do that. if your team couldn’t help you out with that then they suck.

Necro could be the guy you want to be as far away from as possible. I embrace that. If they have team utility then they need to depend on at least one of the life force boosters they have to be able to survive.

Running no stun breaks and having that much survivability, while doing the best condi dmg in the game from range is complete garbage.

Dralor.3701:

How is that entitled? Its cool for other classes to bunker and have access to 1200, but not necro?

Yes some changes need to be made but lets be realistic please.

You can reflect other classes’ projectiles. Nothing a necro does from range can be reflected except staff auto and DS2.

Realistic?

Dralor.3701:

Removing 1200 range on staff would be pretty ridiculous for all aspects of the game, how is that even an issue in spvp anyway? Its a much bigger deal in Pve/WvW.

This kind of entitled everyone else has 1200 range when I have a second health bar stuff makes me really despise necro players.

Staff dictates so much of a fight in spvp this kind of a given. The marks got bigger and you can still use them from max range? It’s ridiculous

Run spectrals. Two stun breaks and a blink if you use it right. That’s the price of having an attrition mechanic.

Oblivion.8307:

People complaining about being outnumbered and not being able to escape. That’s a personal issue down to your positioning especially in a condition build, if you’re running power axe/dagger I guess that’s to be expected due to these weapons being 130/600 range(But we’re talking about condi necros on this thread, right?). When you can range from 900/1200 your positioning is key, that’s survivability in itself. The increased buffer on death shroud is just too much for the current damage output. If you decrease the survivability of the death shroud you remove a lot from pvp in terms of other specs.
The option that makes the most sense is lowering the damage/removal of dhuumfire. Giving a necromancer the incentive of getting 30% condition duration and more (burning/retal/chill proc @ 25%) for running a condition build is ludicrous unless they’re insanely squishy, which necromancers inherently aren’t especially with death shroud.

That’s why I suggested making them a midrange class. If they have to be at melee to 900 range traited for their ranged weapons, then they don’t have that cushion and the DS changes become justified.

Necros can’t have it both ways. The instant cast second health bar eating burst like that needs to come at a price. Not running spectrals at all is something that should be very risky

Bas.7406:

Shar.3402:

I don’t use mist form and don’t play with cantrips regen/vigor, but nice try
If you really think that tanking big bursts, every TEN seconds, with just enough life force to get into death shroud, is something balanced, then I have nothing more to say to you or any other necro that whines for that change.

Good day, sir.

So you don’t play with any defensive utilities and don’t take access to your many forms of vigor and still find a way to play competitively? You have nothing to say because you are incorrect. The Necro has less access to their core mechanic than you do. You have essentially a free heal every 10 seconds, free boons, and a get out of jail free card if you are smart and run dagger off hand.

A condi necromancer barely has time to build the damage to absorb it, is naturally squishy, and has no method of escape, so yes the ability to absorb a single hit every ten seconds is absolutely fair.

This kind of stuff just blows my mind.

Necromancer.

All you have to do is use your mouse, put your left index finger on the #1 key and roll it back and forth on both staff and s/dagger, clicking near an enemy player really fast.

They will die.

Ynot.8397:

jmatb.6307:

Lack of mobility? Spectral walk, spectral grasp, DS 2, focus 5, Signet of Spite, Golem Charge, Grasping Dead, and smart fear wall placement don’t help you close gaps?

600 to 900. I’m not saying all 600 at all. If people have to give up a trait to get 900 range on scepter and staff, then the inherently strong abilities on the weapons come at a price. Again, you cannot reflect necro range. Rangers, Mesmers, Eles, and Engineers can be reflected.

What makes Necromancers special? Why do you want to have it both ways with easy life force, a second health bar, max range CC, and 900 range AoE and single target condis that burn nearly every 10 seconds?

There is no other option than Necro right now for close and ranged pressure! It’s bullkitten!

You are talking about those skills as if they were all used. No one uses focus with the 30/30/10 build. Golem is hardly ever used. Necros use plague form. DS 2 is buggy as all hell and misses more than half the time I use it. Quick tip, run up or down stairs and it fails. Spectral grasp is only ever used with power builds because we don’t want you 1 foot away. We want you 900 range away where we can light you up.

The lack of mobility we have isn’t saying we can’t catch up to you. The lack of mobility is the terrible time we have getting away from someone who has closed the gap. WE DON’T WANT PEOPLE NEXT TO US!!! How hard is this for you to understand? Standing next to someone as a necro is just about the stupidest thing you can do. We want you crippled and chilled as we keep you at range.

You don’t want people close to you? LOL

Do you know what Death Shroud is and how it’s best used?

Lack of mobility? Spectral walk, spectral grasp, DS 2, focus 5, Signet of Spite, Golem Charge, Grasping Dead, and smart fear wall placement don’t help you close gaps?

600 to 900. I’m not saying all 600 at all. If people have to give up a trait to get 900 range on scepter and staff, then the inherently strong abilities on the weapons come at a price. Again, you cannot reflect necro range. Rangers, Mesmers, Eles, and Engineers can be reflected.

What makes Necromancers special? Why do you want to have it both ways with easy life force, a second health bar, max range CC, and 900 range AoE and single target condis that burn nearly every 10 seconds?

There is no other option than Necro right now for close and ranged pressure! It’s bullkitten! They’re not earning their place they were given their place.

Poison doesn’t affect res? Fearing people trying to res them doesn’t work? >>

I’m suggesting midrange as a theme for the class except things like Spectral Grasp, which would be totally useless if it didn’t have that range.

Epi being shorter range would be better too. So would corrupt boon. And if people are kiting you, DS #3 then 2 says hi. Boom you’re back up close doing work.

Bas.7406:

jmatb.6307:

Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.

It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.

If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.

After your litany of posts, my guess is you play a guardian, and have never actually played a necromancer. There is a reason you don’t see a dagger or axe mh necromancer in tournament play. 900 range is hard enough when you have burst classes hammering you with leaps that cover that range and 1500 range engineers bombing you.

Please don’t post about how op necros are at max range. Any necro who sits in Staff all day is worthless. Staff is used when you can’t get to 900 for S/D and you flip to it for Mark of Blood and Staff 3 then flip back to Scepter for damage. You flip back to staff for utility and it goes on. We can’t spam all of our conditions from 1200 range, we can only hit you with a small bleed and chill. Corrupt boon occasionally, but to really hurt you we have to be 900 or closer so please play a necromancer before talking. We actually do a majority of damage with Wells which have a 900 range cast.

Please don’ talk about WoB as a legitimate heal. There is only one heal we use and it’s CC. WoB is only viable when you can stand still and near your team to get all of the heal. CC is just too good.

I’m not saying anybody gets stomped by a Staff at max range. Learn to read between the lines. Scepter is the problem. Signet of Spite is the problem. If all of that is at 600 to 900 range people can react to Necro.

If you lose range, then WoB becomes more important. They can tune that to make it better. The Staff at max range is a problem because you exert more control over a fight from range with that weapon than anything else anyone can come up with in the game. A 180 radius fear from 1200 range is absolutely ridiculous. Marks can be spammed from 1200 range for condi cleaving downed players. You can be running to another point and spamming the attacks behind you as you run to do that. It’s stupid.

Necro being midranged is balanced. It will not send them to the sewer you will still destroy Guardians, which is always important on any team comp.

One would think it goes without saying that you don’t use DS while the Well is down. >.>

And yes, shaman is used in reality you might want to look up some nobody scrub on SOAC Red called Zombify. (sarcasm).

You can have sustain on Necro. If people run no healing power on Necro and blame Anet that’s just a l2play issue.

Glenn.3417:

I’m clueless

You’re not worth responding to at this point anybody who doesn’t see how broken Necros are is batkitten crazy.

hackks.3687:

jmatb.6307:

Andele sorry dude you’re clueless.

Necros are very strong against burst with even a Rabid ammy with the DS direct damage fix. If they can do that on Rabid, what are they going to do in Shaman with sustain?

Having 1200 range with those tools is completely ridiculous.

what is a Necro going to do with Shaman amulet? All they have is regen and life siphons? The two heals that benefit the least from Healing Power…

Honestly, what is everyone referring to when they say “sustain”? Necro has basically zero ability to recover HP beyond their one viable heal on a 25 sec CD. Think of their HP like an hour glass. It can potentially trickle down slowly, but it definitely has a finite limit.

Well of Blood is a 9000 on you, 4500 to your teammates’ health heal if you do the math with just a Shaman Ammy. If you go Cleric’s you can get 11 thousand health back, and do a 5k aoe heal.

It takes time, but you have time in a teamfight with the way DS is now. It’s a second health bar that Spectral Walk and Armor easily replenish.

If you time Cleansing Conditions right, you will pretty much full heal with that much healing power.

Glenn.3417:

jmatb.6307:

I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.

If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the easiest solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out.

Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.

See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic

You’re so far off track it’s getting sad.

You do realise an engi can apply conditions with grenades, at a range of 1500 right. Seeing as you talk about range and conditions.

What do you not understand? 300 range means absolutely nothing in comparison to what Necros can do with it compared to Engis.

Grenades are pitiful in comparison to what you can do with marks and Scepter / Dagger right now. If you have to be at 600 to 900 range you have to earn that.

You can reflect grenades. A Feedback will make a stupid Nade Engi eat all of his nades. S/D autoattack is instant cast. Enfeebling Blood and Grasping Dead cannot be reflected. Marks affect a 180 radius from 1200 range, 240 radius if you trait it, and you can’t reflect them.

You can AoE fear 3 or 4 people at once with that kind of radius with Reaper’s Mark. You can put poison and chill on the same number. There is no reason whatsoever to bring a Nades Engi right now, and they have been dominant prior to this metagame.

That isn’t an accident. Midrange necro is a balanced Necro. Attrition from range is broken, especially now that burst does nothing to a spectrals Necro.

I have no idea how people are this clueless about Necro. Blows my mind.

If their range is brought to 600 to 900 on their best condi weapons and even globally, they will have to earn their place. That’s the most effective solution I can think of. The damage would be more telegraphed and if 2 Necros are on the same point blowing it up they will have to eat what they are sending out. That forces a heal and makes both teams go “Hmm.. if I have to eat this as a Necro wouldn’t an Engi make more sense right now?” That creates tradeoffs. There’s risk, which doesn’t exist on Necro right now.

You can be at range and then have a second life bar that, when timed with Spectral Armor, can eat burst incredibly well. The posts above don’t put this power into perspective. You can attack while you use that skill. You can dodge. You can fear. You can have full functionality of your class and not change anything about what you’re doing. What risk is there with that capability?

Engi would be the alternative to Necro for condi pressure if you want range. Would bombs suffer? No, because Engis have outs that Necros don’t and that makes them great at pushing far point. Would Bomb Engi replace necro? Hell no, because nobody can punk a Guardian like a Necro can and bunk Guards are VITAL in tpvp at midpoint.

See how that works? I hope Anet sees this logic

Andele sorry dude you’re clueless.

Necros are very strong against burst with even a Rabid ammy with the DS direct damage fix. If they can do that on Rabid, what are they going to do in Shaman with sustain?

Having 1200 range with those tools is completely ridiculous.

Andele.1306:

Caffynated.5713:

Now, they have just as much damage (terror nerf isn’t even equivalent to 1 stack of bleeding) but we’re juggernauts in death shroud with life force coming out of our ears.

a) Spectrals got nerfed, DS by base got also nerfed, Full life force fights got buffed, if you let the necro snowball within the first 3 fights (remember necros start at 0~30 if they use the minion trick), that means you let them generate the hp, same as a HGH/Might stacker, you have your chance to deny all that
b) Spectrals are worthless now in 1vx and coordinated teamfights, Sarmor being cheezy Endure pain in 1v1.
c) You cannot pick up all the traits you mentioned lower in your post at once without losing Lingering curses, the second strongest trait for a condi necro.

Spectrals are worthless?! What planet do you live on lol you get a single skill that can eat an entire Ele burst in DS from 1/2 to barely more than 1/4. Without dodging. That is unbelievably strong.

Andele.1306:

jmatb.6307:

Andele.1306:

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?

Look at what you get from Marks though. Objectively.

An instant cast MASSIVE AoE that can fear multiple people off a point? 180 radius chill and poison? That weapon is never going to be worthless again.

Necro ought to be a mid range class, then Mesmers, Nade Engis, Rangers, and even Warrior Longbow builds can provide a serious challenge to them. Their skills need to be more telegraphed for how incredible their damage is.

To quote:
Necromancer raises staff, on staff big black scythe appears, kinda tiny for current size black swirl appears on ground, mark drops as necro does a poker card flash move with hand (dodge here), necro drops hand and aoe appears that explodes on your face if you are in it not evading, if evading it still explodes.

Marks arent instant, 99% of necro skills got 3/4 or longer cast times (compare to typical 1/4 of a ele or 1/2 of a mesmer), long cooldowns and WE FREAKING WAVE OUR HANDS AT YOU WHEN SOMETHING KILLS, all non core skills of a necro rotation dont cause the necro to raise his hands and weapon.

Or should i look at it from another perspective, why do marks do a between 2 to 6 times less damage than all other two handed weapons in game? Its because its a utility weapon.

That’s exactly why Necro needs to be closer to the action. Right now a Necro can ledge spam marks and condis from 1200 range, and have one of the best survivability mechanics in the game with Death Shroud, which they will build up very quickly with Spectral Armor.

If they have to do that windup, and 3/4 a second isn’t that long at all, people can react. They can interrupt you, dodge the mark, and then risk is created. Right now there is no risk if the player has a clue what he’s doing.

A 600 range necro will be kited and force to use DS to gap close with #2. Once they do, if the ranged player doesn’t have an out, he will be in serious trouble. If he does then it becomes a battle of wits.

Also, it presents Engis as a ranged alternative. Necros would be very powerful up close, but Engis would be better from a distance. That creates a real tradeoff. Right now, as strong as HGH still is, it doesn’t even hold a candle to a Necro. With that simple change, now Necro has competition. You can reflect nades. You can’t reflect scepter or staff skills on Necro.

That’s what Necro needs imo

Again, if Necros were mid range on Scepter and Staff they would be more predictable and subject to the same AoE they are spreading if another Necro’s on the team. They would balance each other out because with 1200 range both necros can be way apart and not be affected by their burst.

Also Mesmers would be all over them, as would Longbow Warrior, Clusterbomb, Nade / Power Rifle Engis, and S/D Eles. They would have to use DS to try to close the gap, which favors kiting.

I still think damage can be reduced, but having to be closer will make it more challenging for Necros to do what they do. Attrition from range is OP. Attrition from midrange can be countered.

Andele.1306:

jmatb.6307:

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

For scepter, then nerf all other scepters in game to 600 too and staf is the slowest two hander in game, so you wanna make it worthless again like it was before if not traited, really?

Look at what you get from Marks though. Objectively.

An nearly instant cast MASSIVE AoE that can fear multiple people off a point? 180 radius chill and poison? That weapon is never going to be worthless again.

Necro ought to be a mid range class, then Mesmers, Nade Engis, Rangers, and even Warrior Longbow builds can provide a serious challenge to them. Their skills need to be more telegraphed for how incredible their damage is.

Guys can someone weigh in one lowering range for scepter and staff on necro to 600 and traiting for 900? Range on such a tanky class with even one spectral is completely ridiculous…

That’s why I think range is the solution. If they have to get in 600 range or trait for 900 on scepter and staff they can’t nuke unless you see them. You can time dodge rolls better. You can interrupt them. That makes a HUGE difference.