Guild Wars 2

Tenebrous.2451:

jportell.2197:

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

Then teams should run all bunker builds, right? I mean if they can’t loose 1v1, 2v2, etc. should be a breeze, right?

I may be stupid, but Bunkers are there to last longer than their opponents so help can arrive when they need it and the point is not taken. Which is exactly what your quote from the wiki says. It does not mean that they should not loose in 1v1.

And right now 1v1 a condi build can easily steam roll through the best of bunker builds. This isn’t okay.

The point is genius that bunkers are MEANT to survive a 1v1 indefinitely and hold a 1v2 or more for a significant amount of time to deny a point. Traditional bunker bulids are just being destroyed by condi damage builds.

You asked what should a team do if they opposing team has 3 bunkers and 2 dps. Easy win the match. It is shown in several matches (my experience) and through several streams that teams should have a max of 2 bunkers. So stacking 3 bunkers starts to hurt the teams chances of winning. Right now however stacking necros or other condi builds is NOT hurting a teams chances of winning. Add a spirit ranger into the mix and everyone on the team starts doing burning damage whether they are traited for it or not.

@ The Boz Citation http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bunker

“A good bunker build can easily hold 1-2 players without dying until their team comes back to assist. Bunker builds are designed for survivability, to be able to remain in the area of the capture point, and so denying the opposition starting the capture timer”

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point.[citation needed].

OK, so if bunkers are kings of 1v1, what is the counter to a team with, say, three bunkers and two DPS?
The change you are hoping for would make bunkers the most powerful and most important role in PvP… no wonder, since your sig betrays you play a bunker yourself.

Stacking bunkers is a liability the reason for this is if one bunker gets trained by two or more dps classes they are done. If they get trained by more than one condition classes they are done. And bunkers don’t have the DEEPS to down anyone. Bunkers aren’t meant to lose 1v1s but they aren’t meant to win them either. They are meant to survive the 1v1 indefinitely. The bunker is there to support the DPS players and keep them alive. Condition builds don’t need the support that DPS builds do to survive. More than 2 bunkers on a team is a liability simply because they don’t offer the DPS/condition damage to down anyone with a moniker of toughness. Bunkers are not ever going to be the absolute KINGS of tournament play because they only bring one part of the puzzle to complete a team.

Stacking any type of class/build should be a huge liability however with condition damage builds it isn’t because condition damage builds provide the most AOE pressure while being much more survivable than a burst build and more damaging than a bunker build, and the point of the game is to stand inside a small circle. See the issue here? Or are you so hell bent on necros staying in their kittenedly overpowered state that you cannot see how the

BUNKERS ARE NOT MEANT TO LOSE A 1V1 UNLESS THEY MESS UP! That is the point. Currently a necro can run through and condi bomb any bunker from full to almost nill in just a few seconds. How is that okay? Bunkers are meant to hold points and necro’s and general condition damage overall in this game is out of hand. The only reason HGH engi’s aren’t dominating the meta as they once did was because s/d thieves are a natural enemy to HGH and boon heavy bunker builds. However an s/d thief is not gauranteed to pwn a bunker guard. However a bunker guard or anything really can get steamrolled by a condi damage class.

By the definition of what a bunker should do this IS NOT OKAY! Bunker builds should have their; counters however what is the counter to a condition build? S/d Thieves… eh kinda. Burst? Not really thanks to the innate toughness of condition builds.
More condition builds? Well considering how easily condition builds (necros cough cough) can clear their own conditions with minimal work. This is a little ridiculous.

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You’re not supposed to bring enough removal and HP in order to basically ignore conditions for an infinite amount of time. The very POINT of condition damage is that they get through ANY defense, no matter what, all they need is time. If your tactic is prolonging a fight, don’t complain that an enemy using a toolset that gets better the longer a fight lasts wipes the floor with you.

So essentially what you are saying is that a condi build should be able to win a fight against a bunker no matter what? The VERY POINT of a bunker is to not lose a 1v1 under any circumstances they are supposed to hold out against ANY offense in a 1v1 no matter what. (See what I did there)

The big issue here is that toughness is a very good counter to direct damage. Which is fine ANET has stated that it is intended purpose. Vitality is a terrible counter to conditions which anet has stated they want to be the defense against conditions. It isn’t working. 1v1 a condition build is dominating the entire game. They are also dominating in team fights across the board.

Yes because mesmer was always SOOOO OP. mesmer has no unblockable skills crap aoe damage poor condi removal and subpar team support. It was only OP when we had the shattered strength bug and never since

So there goes one skill that could be used for Condi but instead used as pre emptive stability and takes one less clone generation.

Winds.3087:

I heard tpvp mesmers have extremely rigid utility map. Like portal, illusion of life and stunbreak. Where should they slot null field?

Considering that these were the ONLY reasons mesmers were taken. Mesmers had only one utility slot that could be used for personal preference. Now this can either be a condi clear (null field/arcane thievery/Mantra of Resolve/phantasmal disenchanter) none of which are stun breakers some other classes get that in both, or a stun breaker which most agree that when compared against condi clear stun breakers are still the better damage mitigator.

Bump bumpity bump. I’m sick of always asking our necro “dude you dead?” and then seeing him at full health. Or I say “I know your in death shroud.” Then instead he is down.

JETWING.2759:

Parisalchuk.9230:

Jasher.6580:

JETWING.2759:

Mesmer are absurdly op.
Still very good and very viable.
Virtually invincible.

You’re either a new and inexperienced player or a troll. My gut feeling is telling me to lean more towards the latter.

Well he is outside the top 1000 on Leaderboards if you put any stock into them.

I could stay inside 100 top if i play Mesmer

Because everyone in the top 100 is a mesmer. Oh wait…

feight.2704:

even if you have to land before being able to stun break, how is it really an advantage? not much thing cant be done while foes is flying around . second yes engi have the hard cc. but its not as SPammable as mesmers daze… and since daze is more beneficial for mesmer than engies, it makes mesmers better at interrupting . engi have have crowd control , mesmer have interrupt.

However interrupts benefits are much shorter lived than a launch. And you would be surprised what happens when chain cc’s occur and chain cc’s are much more effective than chain interrupts.

Healing mantras-Cool story bro almost 3 second cast that can easily be interrupted by anyone out there.
The engi CC is better than mesmers for one reason. It may not have traits that make their CC more beneficial to them however it is hard CC meaning that whoever they CC is completely locked out of everything thanks to the knockback/launch.
Engineers have the most launches in the game which is more useful than mesmer daze (sad yes I know but its true) because it launches are only susceptible to stun breaks AFTER the person has landed and the person is much easier to focus fire when launched compared to daze/stun.
Engis also have more knockbacks and pulls (if traited) than mesmers. The hard CC is why even when fully traited into interrupting and interrupt mesmer will not provide as much to a team as a stunlock warrior or any form of engi build.

emon.1863:

jportell.2197:

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

You cant have everything in you spec! It will be OP bunker if he can prodect him self agains everything in the game!

And speccing heavily into vitality does absolutely nothing to protect from conditions

emon.1863:

Amaterasu.6280:

Vitality as a condi mitigation is just sorry excuse and a last resort, it can maybe make you last another few seconds if you are under condi pressure…it is by no means anywhere as effective as toughness vs physical damage…

Thats because Vit. is fot mitigation condi and direct dmg.

Except when someone specs heavily into vit hoping it will mitigate condition will just get hit with bigger numbers from direct damage builds. Which is why people usually only get toughness when speccing defensively and hoping they bring enough condi removal but right now noone can bring enough to keep up

Lordrosicky.5813:

LeGi.3921:

Who needs a nerfed lyssa set when you can perma condispam everything with no skill?

That doesnt even make sense.

Lyssa = remove all condis and get all boons. No wonder all thieves and warriors use it. It is so OP.

Coming from a necro. Even with the “low” cd elites it doesn’t give a meaningful bonus beyond that. The precision is cool the condi duration is eh for most classes that take lyssa runes. It doesn’t need nerfed maybe the FOTM necros just need to figure out when to manipulate them boons into condis instead of rolling the face across the keyboard when they come into a fight.

Yes 1000 times over. Mesmers are the only class that doesn’t have a guaranteed “cleanse all conditions” trait/skill.

Tenebrous.2451:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

The problem is moreover that condition builds have thoughness, which directly affect power builds. On the otherside power builds have no stat to reduce condition damage. As simple as that.

Cough vitality cough

Oh yes because warriors with the highest health in game just absolutely face tank dem condis! /sarcasm

Certain builds may need babysat IE a healer running around with ur burster or vice versa. But entire classes no matter the build needing babysat is a show the class is no longer viable.

Viable means that it can fit into a team comp and not need babysat to survive. This used to be the case with necros and warriors now it is the case with mesmers.

feight.2704:

ok for the Hammer warrior, not or the engi… you will never have more knockback than mesmer have interrupts. again, you have to be set as an interrupt character compared to interruptions which are embedded in the mesmers mechanics. so it is still easier for us to interrupt than it is for other professions. and its just one of many new builds available to us.

Except for interrupt has a very specific set of requirements to get the benefit of an interrupt and its not hard Cc. I mean we only have 2 stuns on long cooldowns and they are easily dosgeable (try using Sig of dom to interrupt) warrior dazes are also on shorter CDs. And you’re kidding about the engi right? Rifle thumper turret big ole bomb flame thrower. Anyone that doesn’t fart stability turns into a rag doll for engis.

If I remember in game ill message him some people are super protective of builds. However with all my experimenting and 4 mesmers that rotate through our team we haven’t found anything that can make mesmers viable in this meta. Maybe if we got more meaningful Condi removal. But even then just maybe

My engineer with several AOE knockbacks cares to disagree so does my hammer warrior with a 2s AOE stun on an 8s CD

Defektive.7283:

jportell.2197:

Defektive.7283:

jportell.2197:

I have run shatter, confusion, phantasm, condition, bunker, and anti condition mesmer. Ifthere is a mesmer bhold that somewhat seemed to make sense. I tried to make it work. With the insane Condi spam meta there isn’t anything a mesmer can do that can’t be done better by another class.

Have you be running it with a team whose actively trying to make it work. Or SoloQ.

A team that actively tried making it work our bunker ele calls me “the best mesmer in the game” which I know isn’t true but it is a testament to the fact that I know my way around this class. There is just so much more that my bunker engi can bring to a team through the tons of blast finishers and aoe healing. If my mesmer wanted to aoe heal the team for a similar amount it would be sitting there shouting “agony torment pain” for 2.75s whilst being a sitting duck.

you and Zeromis should get together, he’s come up with a few crafty build concepts I’m sure he’d like to see put to a good team test.

No clue who that is but I imagine either a PU build which is something I’ve messed with til I was blue in the face or phantasmal defender which is great for defense but unlike stone spirit which gives the entire team protection with no target it requires one. So it is less reliable and can be blinded/invulned not to mention the fact that it is way less survivable and vengeful images got nerfed into nothingness which was a bunker mesmersoonly reliable source of dps.

shimmerless.4560:

bunker mes would work if we could cycle stealth and still cap so long as there’s no hostiles on point

I tried it. I was running Pu perma protection before the buff and its great for 1v3 nd not dying but without protection you become about as squishy as a zerker but nowhere nearly as threatening. So to be survivable you need the stealth but to win the match you need to hold the point. Its two opposing processes.

Defektive.7283:

jportell.2197:

I have run shatter, confusion, phantasm, condition, bunker, and anti condition mesmer. Ifthere is a mesmer bhold that somewhat seemed to make sense. I tried to make it work. With the insane Condi spam meta there isn’t anything a mesmer can do that can’t be done better by another class.

Have you be running it with a team whose actively trying to make it work. Or SoloQ.

A team that actively tried making it work our bunker ele calls me “the best mesmer in the game” which I know isn’t true but it is a testament to the fact that I know my way around this class. There is just so much more that my bunker engi can bring to a team through the tons of blast finishers and aoe healing. If my mesmer wanted to aoe heal the team for a similar amount it would be sitting there shouting “agony torment pain” for 2.75s whilst being a sitting duck.

Defektive.7283:

Archaon.6245:

Defektive.7283:

Because we’re lazy and Necromancers are strong.

More likely because you can’t be as strong as a necro on condition/fear spam, as tough as a spirit ranger or guardian, as good as bomb engi @ far and as fast and reliable as ele and thief @ roaming and let’s say not as annoying as permastun hammer warriors…whaterver you try someone can do it better, so there’s no reason to keep playing mesmer in tourney

Portal play can be a game changing advantage.

If a team ran an aggresive bunker mesmer instead of a Spirit Ranger they could do slick things as bate an enemy to mid, portal to far point. Clobber the guy one, leave their bunker mesmer on point as the team transitions back to mid.

I keep bringing up Bunker Mesmer because I’ve seen some slick Bunker builds out there from people like Zeromis. It may take forever to kill something as one, but they are sometimes near unkillable if played correctly. Put one on a far point either decapped or capped in your favor, and it isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

Bunker mesmer isnt as good because our bonuses and boons for bunkering come from stealth. I’ve run a PU bunker build and sure you can sit on a point while three people try killing you. But once they get wise to your roll as nothing more than trolling. Your roll on the team is pretty much nullified

I have run shatter, confusion, phantasm, condition, bunker, and anti condition mesmer. Ifthere is a mesmer bhold that somewhat seemed to make sense. I tried to make it work. With the insane Condi spam meta there isn’t anything a mesmer can do that can’t be done better by another class.

Bountiful interruption depends on very specific situations and with some of the less than obvious animations (lookin at you necros) it’s hard to know what needs interrupted. And mesmer interrupts aren’t nearly as spammable as other more powerful non-damaging→damaging conditions (terror). Mesmer has great versatility and a plethora of builds. But almost none of them are tournament viable because that plethora of builds can be done by another class better in tPvP while they bring more to the team.
AOE condis>necro/Engi
Great Boon Support>Guardian/ele
Great Condi Removal>Guardian/Ele
Great healing>Guard/ele/engi
Fast travel for points>Thieves (shadow trap)
Great burst>Thieves/S/D eles/Condition necros.
Inst Resses>Spirit Ranger/Elixir R (eh kinda)
See there is not one thing that mesmers can do right now that can’t be done better by another class while having better support for a team. Anet needs to do some very meaningful buffs for the mesmer in terms of damage for us to keep up with thieves and s/d eles. OR some major buffs so we can actually become meaningful bunkers.

rivx.3267:

I heard it maxes out at 12 seconds never use enough blast finishers to find out tbh.

It does max at that. Me and my ele and thief teammates max our finishers it never goes past 12 seconds

Terror+ any other combination of conditions. Terror alone does 6-7k damage in a single bout between a terror necro and anything else.

And kitten give mesmers better condition damage mitigation.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@jportell: This thread isn’t about Necros, it’s about conditions. You claim conditions are OP, but what you’re actually saying is Necros are OP. You can’t even join an argument about conditions when you are so focused on one specific class that you use it as the basis for your argument about a fundamental mechanic.

The only way you could have possibly been dropped to half health “instantly” through conditions is Dhuumfire+Terror. Otherwise, you would have needed 60 stacks of bleeding to lose 6000 health in 1 second, given 100 DPS per bleed stack. Or 50 stacks of bleeding and burning, given 1000 DPS for burning. I don’t know what the approximate DPS of poison is, but guessing 500 DPS, you’d need 45 stacks of bleeding, poison, and burning. If Terror is roughly 900 DPS (it’s less, IIRC), replace it with poison, and you need 41 stacks of bleeding, burning, and fear.

You might have gotten 6 stacks of bleeding in one perceived second (though most things that bleed you seem to take at least 3/4ths of a second to cast), but the rest of that is a combination of condi pressure from one class that is most likely being evaluated as we speak. Odds are, after PAX, something will happen. It might be a further Terror nerf, it might be Dhuumfire rework. I’m just getting my Necro leveled, and I kind of hope it’s both.

In the example above, 6 bleeds + burning + fear is 600 + 1000 + 900 or 2500 DPS. See how 1000 of that is burning? Feel free to go campaign against Dhuumfire, and join your voice to that choir of people saying it is too much for a necro to have the burning condition, it doesn’t really fit with the class, and it doesn’t really fit with the power traitline either (kind of fits with condi duration in the trait line, but it’s still a bummer).

Either way, this is about condis. Not your vendetta about Necros.

My gripe is with conditions make no mistake. But only one class that is excelling in conditions is also the best at dealing with conditions themselves. My propose fixes (this would deal with HGH engis as well)

1. Terror Remove this trait completely a CC should not also do an insane amount of damage (7k from fear when fighting a single necro) I don’t care what it’s replaced with or even if it is replaced at all any other class that gets a damage bonus from a skill (mug) or an interrupt (mesmers) is an extremely poor damage bonus and not the top skill in killing of the target.
2. Bring might stacking runes in line with the defensive (protecion/boon duration runes) making it so that HGH engis for the ones that are left aren’t just running around the map with a constant 25 might stacks.
3. Fix the bug so that when spirit rangers stack the bonuses do not also stack. Currently there is a bug where if 2 spirit rangers are on a team and one person uses vigorous spirits and the other does not the damage bonus from frost spirit goes from 10% to 20% because they spirits are buffing seperately.
4. Introduce a trait for the classes that are extremely lacking in condi mitigation (engis/warriors/mesmers/thieves to an extent). This trait should be something along the lines of taking less condition damage per each unique condition. Right now there is no debuff that hurts condition damage like weakness or anything. A condi necro can have perma weakness on them and still do insane amounts of damage through conditions.

Conditions are imbalanced, the amount of application vs. removal/mitigation of conditions is imbalanced. The fact that only one stat feeds conditions making it easy to be tanky and do ridiculous amounts of damage is imbalanced. One class being the best at applying conditions and having the best removal of conditions is IMBALANCED. Up necros survivability to that of a guardian for all I care but the ease of dishing out AOE conditions vs. the difficulty people are having with cleansing/mitigating them is extremely imbalanced.

The Boz.2038:

jportell.2197:

Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.

What an excellent way to participate in a discussion!

jportell.2197:

Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.

Unless you go from 0 to burning, poison, and twenty five stacks of bleeding in the span of one second, it is impossible to lose half your health bar (assuming you’re not a full zerk ele or thief) in 3 seconds to conditions.

Shaman’s amulet engineer with 30 pts. into alchemy and it went from 0 to burning poison and 15 stacks of bleeding. Don’t tell me it’s impossible to lose half your health in three seconds considering the stats feeding condition damage is just one. A zerker build has to spec heavily into 3 different stats in order to get results. A condi build has to spec into one to get similar results sacrificing very little survivability.

A bunker builds has to go into two stats to get results, toughness and healing which is great for mitigating direct damage. There are no full defensive amulets so a bunker usually has to give up vitality to get healing which in turn makes them more susceptible to condi damage or they can get soldiers ammy but then their healing is going to be garbage and even if they have the vit to last a little bit longer against a condition build they won’t be able to heal through it. The ability to give up one defensive stat in order to maximize one offensive stat while any other build has to give up all defensive stats to maximize their direct damage is imbalanced. The lack of an innate defense against conditions while there is so many passive ways to grant conditions through traits and auto attacks is imbalanced (necro AA does 2 on scepter no other class has two conditions built into their AA) necros also get two on the other skills in a weapon slot. The fact that the class most guilty of spamming conditions is also the best at mitigating them is IMBALANCED. Two classes get full condi clear in their heal skill eles and necros.
One class has condition transfers in two weaponsets (i understand putrid mark is bugged but it still removes the conditions from the necro.) One class can send all conditions they have on themselves to an enemy (remember when mesmers could do that.)

One reason HGH engis didn’t completely shift the meta is because they excelled in one thing high AOE condition damage. Their condition mitigation was not that great and with the introduction of larceonous strike they had a natural counter. Necros have one counter right now and that is stun lock warriors and even then a necro can out kite and cripple and chill the warrior to uselessness before the warrior can land their extremely telegraphed earth shaker.

The Boz.2038:

If you don’t have the tools to keep up with the condi pressure (vitality, cleanse, dodge, etc.), you’re supposed to kill them before they kill you. If you’re unable to do either, and are CONSISTENTLY beaten by conditions, something is seriously wrong with your team or character build.

Read that as Get more necros run stupidly condi spam builds and hope you condi nuke them before they condi nuke you. I run a build that has 3500 armor good condi cleanse in the heal skill and one in a utility skill. My problem is when someones condition damage is so high that applying 3 conditions at once drops me to half health. How is this even remotely okay especially if it is supposed to be “DOT”. Going from full to half instantly through condis is not Damage over time. It is burst condition damage. And that is not okay.

The Boz.2038:

What exactly was your team doing during that pressure?

Sent one to their far point all that happened is one necro peeled and wrecked him too since noone (everyone but necros seem to agree) can keep up with the condi pressure output fotm condi necros do. Any time we tried pushing another point we got destroyed by the necros because even our guard and ele combined couldn’t do group cleanses for those team fights. (and that is on points that we held. we don’t sit and do an outmanned fight if we don’t own the point that is just silly.)

Edit: and no matter what you say you aren’t convincing anyone here or elsewhere that necros condition application isn’t OP esp. when the best anti-condi classes can’t keep up with it.

emon.1863:

Exedore.6320:

The heavy condition damage amulets aren’t a problem; the professions are. With the latest change to necromancer Dhuumfire, the condition damage is strong, but it’s arguable whether it’s too much.

Balancing condition damage options for professions is difficult. You have to find a balance where they can put on pressure through conditions in the face of condition removal, but not make everyone fall over dead shortly after condition removal has been expended. Part of this is in the conditions applied. Burning and Fear (with Terror) do the most damage per second. Bleeding does the least per stack and because it goes up in intensity, is often the first condition to be cleared. But the rate at which bleeding stacks can be adjusted in balancing. Then consider which conditions you apply to a single target vs. an area.

A good case study would be why grenade engineer was strong before the June 25th patch, but didn’t break the meta-game whereas necromancer after the patch did.

Well duuhuumfire and terror is nerfed.
You cant compare HgH to Terrormancer, just because engis have more armor, more mobility, more cc and more suravobility. Necro don’t. So it is the easiest target in the game (in teamfights)

Actually HGH engis have more armor less condi clear no stun breaks (elixir R is taken over elixir S 9/10 times) and no peels. They also had no access to hard CC (you know fear) or a bonus to a certain condition (fear again) if another target has a condition on them. This is why HGH engis while OP for the damage they do didn’t shift the meta entirely. Necros however have 2 fears that deal insane amounts of damage with terror better AOE pressure through conditions and marks/fear and scepter attacks are way less telegraphed than slow moving grenades that can be sidestepped.

The Boz.2038:

I once faced a team with fire air elementalists. Clearly, that is a meta, and is OP.

You faced ONE team. tonight my team read that as an entire premade. Faced several other PREMADE teams that had at least 2 necro mancers on their team. Worse than that we have faced a couple of teams that had three necros a guard and an s/d thief. Why can’t you see that stacking professions should be a liability but with AOE condi spam professions it is the opposite it is usually guaranteeing a win through the sheer amount of AOE condi pressure that is put out. This is especially true for necros/spirit rangers (AOE BUFFS TO GUARANTEE BURNING yeah that isn’t OP) and certain engi builds.

Wish I had taken screen shots of the 2 necro 1 engi 1 spirit ranger 1 guard team we faced -_- but oh well. You people won’t ever believe condi damage is OP.

Lopez.7369:

Warriors are actually becoming the big counter to necromancers. Their big inhibition is whether they can live through other classes and deal damage at the same time.

This I know about warriors. However they are the only real counter to condition builds.

Fenrir.5493:

jportell.2197:

One suggestion is to make regen stack intensity. A trait could read “Gain x stacks of regeneration for each condition on you”< not class specific btw.

That could be the boon to counter conditions, but the problem is that poison countes regeneration.

We have to think of a stat that reduces condition damage too, vitality could be the candidate, or toughness but i think vitality should be, that will make all of those vit amulets more usefull than right now.

Except they would have to completely redo how vit does against condi damage because right now vit is in no way a decent counter to condition damage. A change to vit maybe but it would be nicer to have the options in traits for condi removal or a mitigation such as less damage from conditions per unique condition. Guards and eles are already doing kinda okay in condition removal area. Other classes (warriors/mesmers/engis specifically) have the worst condi removal compared to the other 5.

I guarantee you that even then if we are able to see the death breakdown 90% of the deaths top cause will be condition damage.

One suggestion is to make regen stack intensity. A trait could read “Gain x stacks of regeneration for each condition on you”< not class specific btw.

Lopez.7369:

That example is way outdated. I’m talking about the current metagame.

You actually kind of proved my point that most people seem to be behind the current metagame.

And in the current meta game (from playing with people in the top 500 and r40-50) the team comp is as stated above.

Lopez.7369:

No top team runs more than one necromancer because that would debilitate overall mobility.

I don’t know why it’s worth pointing out that most teams run necromancers, considering most teams also run thief, guardian, ranger and engineer. Why don’t those classes get singled out? Why aren’t we paying attention to the fact that none of those other classes are built around doing lots of condition damage? (Some of them do condition damage, but that’s not why they’re in the team.)

The real meta, at least at the highest levels, is balance. Teams typically run bunker, conditions, bruiser, burst, and one of the other archetypes depending on the team’s strategy and playstyle. No one is ramming a bunch of condition builds into a team.

But that doesn’t seem to be clear to many low-level players, who are instead picking up necromancers left and right even after they’ve been nerfed. My suspicion is they’re behind the times, which means we should be seeing more sword/dagger thieves and spirit rangers at low ratings in a week or so.

TP v. Team Ugly. TP had two necromancers no bunker and they nuked team ugly several times. (before pax.) Conditions in general are way out of hand and they are applied way to easily and way to difficult to cleanse even when built around doing nothing but cleansing conditions. Several top teams have also acknowledged this including xeph, helseth, phantaram, supcutie etc. It was even asked in an SOTG about necros and conditions in general. And there are already several teams running spirit rangers. The meta is actually turning into this for the teams that run FOTM builds 1 necro/2 spirit rangers/thief/guard. Guard isn’t even taht much of a necessity anymore. Or we are seeing 2 necros/1 spirit ranger/1 condi engi/1 thief. The only time you see people bringing a mesmer/warrior/ele is teams that are less concerned about winning and more concerned about playing a class they enjoy (don’t read that as build, builds should change as needed) however the current meta is pushing people away from their preferred classes and more toward FOTM meta classes just so they can have a chance at being successful. Do you not see a problem with that?

Lopez.7369:

It’s actually annoying that so many low-level players still think the meta is about conditions and necromancers. It leads to way too many people solo queueing as necromancer and contributing nothing of value.

Because several top teams haven’t started using more and more necros doing extremely well right? /sarcasm

Atherakhia.4086:

jportell.2197:

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.

Could you expand on this because I’m just not following it. By burst do you mean the ability to drop a ton of conditions all at once on multiple targets? Or do you literally mean burst damage on top of condition damage?

To my knowledge, most classes that use conditions at all (at least to the point to warrant complaint) are using rabid gear which doesn’t have power. In WvW it’s the same way, except there people are using Apothecary gear for the most part. So while I suppose it’s true that a class could hit something with their other skills, they should hit like a wet noodle.

By “burst” I mean the amount of conditions dropped on you will either down you in the next 5s or you clear them with only half your health left. The condition damage right now is dropping people as fast as zerker burst builds used to do. So many condis get dropped at once that sometimes when u clear them u don’t clear the ones you really need gone.

Page bug. 15 char

The Boz.2038:

You’ve said that before. It’s not at all true.

Really so a high condi damage necro won’t be able to beat a bunker guard or d/d cleric ele at all right?

The Boz.2038:

Archaon.6245:

Real problem right now is that dps builds can’t have both dmg AND survivability but condition dmg ones have both cond dmg and vit/tough/boons and kitten…both from traits and amulets..that’s why meta radically moved to cond builds, dps specs can just kill or get killed condition specs can kill and survive while defending a point, expec vs a dps…guess wich one is better for a point control game? If you spec for dmg…both raw or condition you shouldn’t be able to get so much survivability too…you know, it’s called unbalance..

Working as intended. Tankiness is the de-facto multiplier stat for condition damage because conditions take a while to get stacked up, and then take a while to do their damage. Being able to buy that time is inseparable from the build.

Except for now we are seeing “burst” condition damage. DOTS is fine let them occur OVER TIME. But burst and condition damage should not be hand in hand. Right now they are.