Guild Wars 2

leungclj.4915:

Zenith.7301:

greyblue.4962:

Mesmer downed and thief downed and ele downed are the only downed states that can stop stability/stealth stomp.

Mesmer downed 2 does not block a stealth stomp – it requires a target.

In a team fight you can target any other player. And you can still prevent a stealth stomp by starting to mash 2 when you are expecting to go down.

in situation such as 2 v 2, enemy team with a theif, blinding powder or shadow refuge their teammate then you will have no target to cast downstate #2….

perhaps make it so that down #2 doesnt require a target…

That would be nice. I must agree here that downedstate is where mesmer has a slight advantage over others. However the disadvantage is how easy a mesmer is to bring down currently compared to engis or well just about anyone. Get a well built engi to 25% health and the fun is just starting. Get a mesmer to 25% easy peasy after that. Class viability directly relates to how easy it is to down and the damage it does before downed.

This is why necro, ranger, guard, and engi are demi gods running around the map. They can do sometimes OP damage and still be a real pain in the neck to kill. Mesmer can deal some good damage but any decent condi build on the other team and it is GG mesmer.

He is basically asking for all traits relating to certain weapons to be combined into one. There are a few classes that have this, thieves with pistols, mesmers with manipulation/glamour skills, warriors axe, guards GS. etc. etc. I think they spread them out because bundling everything into one trait may make it OP. Or they just ran out of ideas for traits and threw in others for filler

ensoriki.5789:

Laxuar.3504:

You forgot the phantasm mesmer that atm are out of the game only because the large amount of aoe.

At the moment? There is always been a large amount of aoe
People saying nerf signet of agility? Are you effing serious?
Crying about Spirit of nature of all things you could kitten about on a Ranger. Of all things the Spirit that once you kill is gone for up to 240 blinking seconds, and has a visible interruptible active skill?
Good kittening lord.

Wtf happened to this forum.

Spirits are immune to crowd control. Ever notice when an AOE pull or anything happens you get a few “Immune” messages on your screen. Those are d/t the rangers spirits.

Zenith.7301:

Vyndetta.9415:

Stealth.9324:

Zenith.7301:

Spirit also has a 240 sec cd unlike elixir r, so it should obviously be better. Engineer gets elixir r AND supply crate. Compare elites, not utilities.

Do you want to trade your spirit with my Elixir R? I would take it any day given

I’ll trade ye man. I rather have double elixir R any day. that’s of course I could have your supply crate as well

We’ll trade him that kittenty signet of the wild and spirit for elixir R and supply crate.

Hell, we’ll trade him all the signets as long as we get his elixirs

You realize that aside from elixir R and elixir B engi elixirs are kinda worthless. The condi clear doesn’t break stun so its hard to use when you most need it. One stunbreak makes you easier to kill (GG Frenzy), the other makes you shrink to be invuln for 3s and unable to do anything else so when the 3s is up you are still pretty much a free kill. Yeah tell me how much it sucks to have your pet do way more damage with 2 different signets at no real cost to you. Tell me how awesome it is to have an immunity to damage for you and your pet (when traited) with no downside (still being able to perform other tasks etc.) yes ranger signets are absolutely terrible compared to engi elixirs. /sarcasm.

Vyndetta.9415:

Stealth.9324:

Zenith.7301:

Spirit also has a 240 sec cd unlike elixir r, so it should obviously be better. Engineer gets elixir r AND supply crate. Compare elites, not utilities.

Do you want to trade your spirit with my Elixir R? I would take it any day given

I’ll trade ye man. I rather have double elixir R any day. that’s of course I could have your supply crate as well

Can be ressed twice in 30s with a 240s cooldown (180 effective cooldown), compared to can be ressed once on a 120s CD requires enemy to not be AFK to counter. What would you rather have?

I am actually positive it is. After that it is spirit ranger

Im with fenrir here. A stat that would reduce damage received from conditions would go a long way. My idea is a major GM trait would be one that reads x% less damage from conditions under x situation.

The general idea is the more conditions you have on you the less damage you take from them. This is the inverse from classes that get a damage bonus for more conditions on a target and more boons on themselves.
Classes that would do well to get a trait like this are ones that are already somewhat weak to condis
Warriors/mesmers
Engineers I’d say mayyybeeee but they have AR right now which is pretty sweet as it is.

Or runes like runes of melandru but more of them and more -% duration to be sure.

Blackjack.5621:

Xeph.4513:

but there are less viable classes at the moment then back in the old meta, that much is true.
Mesmer, ele and warrior. are not seeing competitive play.
Previously it was just warrior and necro.
so no there are not more viable classes now.
I also know a lot of good Necro’s that agree its a little too strong, regardless that is up to debate.

if you bring the mentioned classes back into meta by reverting their previous nerfes, the necro problem would be solved, since teams could outsustain/clean through it with old ele heals or train the necro down with mesmer/warrior raw dmg where a necro cannot escape from.

THIS 1000+ times this right here yes yes for the love of god. Mesmer would be back in a great spot if say mantra of resolve cleared all conditions (The only class that doesn’t get a full condi clear in either the heal skill or a slot skill.) OR make menders purity so that it removes all conditions. This is the biggest reason why mesmers are in a bad spot because in order to find a good spot on the team they have to trait to an effect where they have no good condi clear. Allowing it to be in our heal skill naturally (everyone else gets this hell every one else gets free range on confusion now!) or at least in a slot skill where it is a full clear. I think mesmers would be okay.

Lololol totally balanced Yip completely that’s why people are still hard stacking necros in team comps with spirit rangers

Bring superior rune of perplexity into pvp maybe? Idk just a thought.

Hawatak.8049:

To stick with the thread, my opinion :

Mesmers are still very strong. They have no problem (maybe lack condi removal), the problem is the meta. They just don’t fit in, as many other classes/builds.

Hence Mesmer is no longer strong when every other class can find some way even a very odd one to fit in to a meta but one class is just completely obsolete it is easier to change that one class than destroy every other one to adjust the meta. Which I hope anet does mesmer has seen so many needlesss nerfs.

When it comes to leaps a mesmer can do two or three while a light field is out which isn’t bad. However maybe have the leap effect match the blast effect that way even if a class doesn’t have access to blast finishers they have good access to the removal through a good variety of leaps (mes/rangers have good access to leaps)

I like it. It would add a depth to play and require better team communication. But it would make classes with the most blast finishers more prevalent. A good step would be to even out some blasts. But this is over all a great idea.

Of this I approve it would also get rid of the insane uptime of retal some classes get while giving better group condition clear

They are not yet in PVP. Figures.

Everyone would either play human or asura. Their racial skills are the best in the game but you would see way more asura engi/mesmers because of techno babble which the toolbelt skill for is ridic

And then we go on a very long cooldown before doing it again (90s) meanwhile thieves AOE cleave pistol whip hits for way more than our BF MW combo and warriors can repeat 100 blades every 8s. Like I said and you just showed with ur keyboard concerto example mesmers have to pull way more stops to come close to damage other classes can pull much easier much more often.

Mensders purity only works with the #6 slot and not other traits that heak. And even with all that condi cleanse that’s about all your doing is Condi cleansing. Sadly from my exprierence against higher teams (AL),Pink etc. Even if you bunker your heart out as a mesmer you won’t out bunker even one Condi necro or spirit rangers damage. Tis a sad but true thing.

Mesmee is a poor bunker in PvP thanks to our poor condi cleanse and the fact we get our best defensive boons from stealth. My honest advice is use another class food bunkering until ANET tones down Condi spam or gives mesmers serious Condi removal love

ShadowPuppet.3746:

jportell.2197:

Well after running around in the new areas of the map for queens jubilee with a base of 3400 power and 67% Crit chance with phantasmal fury. My zerker only hits for a max of 7-8k on a legendary target that had 25 stacks of vuln on it. Meanwhile my friend is pistolwhipping it for 20k and a warrior is 100bladesing for 17k. There is a huge disparity between mesmer dps/burst in pvp and pve and other classes.

Edit: And my ranger longbow number 2 hits for 10k in pvp. Once again mesmer doesn’t hold a candle even with a similar number set.

3400 power or attack? I have full exotic zerker gear minus one ring and don’t come close to 3400 power and I know ascended is not anywhere near that big of a stat difference. I sit at 2247 power which equates to around 3347 attack.

I just find it overall ridiculous how hard a zerker mesmer has to try to keep up with Tue DPS OF just about every other class in the game.

3400 attack total.

Well after running around in the new areas of the map for queens jubilee with a base of 3400 power and 67% Crit chance with phantasmal fury. My zerker only hits for a max of 7-8k on a legendary target that had 25 stacks of vuln on it. Meanwhile my friend is pistolwhipping it for 20k and a warrior is 100bladesing for 17k. There is a huge disparity between mesmer dps/burst in pvp and pve and other classes.

Edit: And my ranger longbow number 2 hits for 10k in pvp. Once again mesmer doesn’t hold a candle even with a similar number set.

Where is the bug report in the game bugs forum? Can someone link it?

Ugh wtf. Well now mesmer is still useless and so is confusion in sPvP yay anet!

That is my big question. Will this rune be a sPvP rune? If So mesmer may be juicy for pvp again. But really confusion still sucks.

Epic.3950:

jportell.2197:

Epic.3950:

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

And how many teams in PAX had a mesmer? Hmmm yah that’s right. ZERO

your signature says bunker mesmer. thats probably why you think they are bad. obviously no idea how to play one. btw the torch doesnt work if you are bunkering down
saying PAX teams didnt have a mesmer therefore they suck is like saying every champion in league that wasnt used in a single tourney is horrible. There are hundreds of reasons not to run a mesmer, them being underpowered is not one of them. If a team wanted to run a warrior because they came up with this insane comp that actually called for one (as crazy as it seems) would that make mesmers worse than warriors? no you are just a bandwagon who is incapable of strategy. (not to mention mesmers perfectly counter the counter meta stunlock builds that keep coming up)

warrior stunlock>mesmer stunlock. 3s AOE stun on a 7s cooldown. You tell me what is better when compared to mesmers generally single target stuns. Also my signature saying bunker mesmer is nothing to do with mesmers underpoweredness and torch is an amazing defensive weapon. And before condi spam became the meta that bunker mesmer could keep 3 people on a point trying to kill me. Clearly you don’t understand how other builds can bunker. If you are keeping 3+ people on a point trying to kill you then you are doing something for your team.

I played all mesmer builds from shatter to phantasm to confusion and condition and even the bunker build that I made, and tbh no mesmer build is viable in this meta. Not interrupt, not shatter, and not bunker. I am most def not a bandwagon mesmer it has been my main since november until recently and mesmer has amazing group utility in other parts of the game. However right now it is terrible because there isn’t anything a mesmer can do that another class can’t do better.

group healing>Guards, Engis, Eles
AOE condi> Necros, Engis, warriors (yah warriors)
Bunkering>guardians, engis, eles, rangers
Burst>S/D thieves, Warriors, SD engis, SD eles.
Group Support>rangers, guardians, Engis
Quick Resses> Rangers, Engis, Necros
Stealth>smoke field+blast finisher (oh yeah mesmer has one blast finisher on a longer cooldown than any other blast finisher for other classes)
AOE Condi Clear>Necros, Eles, Guards (shattered conditions is terribly unreliable not to mention in a tree that has nothing to do with shattering illusions and everything to do with keeping them alive)

Edit: and when all teams in both NA and EU pax prelims had no mesmer you still think that isn’t a huge red flag as to the condition of this class?

Epic.3950:

HPLT.7132:

My list:
S:
Necromancer
Engineer

A:
Thief+
Ranger
Guard
Warrior (Somehow the current stun build works. I think alot of teams are just afraid to use it – And its a strong counter against necros)

B:
Elementalist

C:
Mesmers

Everyone agrees Necromancer need to be brought down. It’s ridicoulus how easy this class plays out. Engineer also on top: Some of you might argue that there were brought down with elixir R nerf, however there are still extremly strong. The only class which might win reliable is a SD thief. In addition the engineer is a toolbelt of CC. This is also which also why it is possible to carry whole groups with your engi. Alot of Former Ele’s moved to engi due to that fact. It is the only class which can repeatedly win 2vs1 or even 3vs1. The simply reason is he can prevent rezzing better than other classes. Just place a bomb and start to spam your bombs (I know it requires some skill) if this is not helpful than pop your panic button elite, which is a mini version of an engi with net turret (prevent stomps, immobilize for whole 3 sec), fire turret (500+ ticks) and 6,5 k heal. In addition you have your insanely rezz (which btw. ticks also after the icon dissapeared for the enemy which is quite frustrating). In addition the engi has the 3 strongest combofield combined with alot of explosion finishers – He can stealth he can stack up his heal or just stacking might- so if for example the bombs are missing he still benefits from his “air” blast. Actually I think more classes should be like the engi because the skill cap is high and it offers alot to choose. However this is not the case and wont happen in short time so i think its time for some adjustment.
S/D Thiefs are the actual reason for lack of elementalist and mesmers in the game. I really would liked to see some minor adjustment so that the cannot evade and you cannot hit them before you are dead. I think however some small changes regards to the initiative costs are necessary.
Ranger – Spirit build is strong but since it offers not the CC like an engi have, or the aggressive DPS of necro, it is tier A and not tier S for me. Like for S/D thiefs some minor tweaks to the spirit and the class should be fixed. However this class has no big CC at all – which has to be considered – Also they cannot go for dps builds currently.
Guard – OK
Warriors – Stun warriors can be very annoying for low HP classes and also for engineers and necros these guys are very annoying due to some mindless stunbreaker changes in latest patch and thus shift to “No stun breaker meta”.

Elementalist: Low Health pool, 1 Trick pony (Burst or die) – Can be worthy for the team but often he gets killed by thief, necro or chased by engineer/warrior before he can pull out his strength.

Mesmers: No condi remove and no effective counter against S/D’s. Enough said.

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

And how many teams in PAX had a mesmer? Hmmm yah that’s right. ZERO

Alkaholic.3875:

How would u nerf engie? Did anyone run condi spreading HGH in this match?

Engi doesn’t really need a nerf. For the most part they are fine they are great in a role if they specialize for doing it. HGH isn’t seen in the meta currently because of s/d thieves.

This is based off of what I saw in the PAX and class representation

Tier S:
+Necro
+Ranger

Tier A:
+Engi
=Guard
=Ele
=Thief

Tier B
Warrior

Tier C
Mesmer.

Of all the teams I watched (didn’t see the entire tourney) and based of reports from fellow players there were absolutely NO MESMERS in any team for pax prelims. This should speak volumes to this games balance when one class is all but eliminated from competitive play.

@Arheundel pt. II

Mesmer has the most choice for utilities? Once again are you off your rocker? Please tell me you are joking. Mesmer has ONE. Count it ONE utility skill that is OPEN TO PERSONAL PREFERENCE when in a serious tPvP team. That is because the other two are IOL and Portal 9/10 times. Mesmer usually has THE LEAST PERSONAL CHOICE in their utility skills when compared to other classes.

We have got timewarp which everyone except you apparently agrees is a joke since the quickness nerf. Mass invis…. which why would I take a 90s CD for 5s of stealth when an engi/thief can stack blast finishers on a smoke field and give the entire team 12-15s of stealth. Which leaves us with moa which is a cheap trick and any mesmer that gives a rip about their class wants to see replaced with something that is useful for the mesmer. Not to mention I can’t count the number of times that I have been moa’d by an idiot mesmer when i was at full health.

Engi elixir X has seen use because if it is rampage it gives a significant boost to base power/toughness/and vit. Which is pretty sweet.
Ele tornado sees some use because it is a whirl finisher I can’t count the number of times tornado has saved my teams backside because our ele did it in a light field. It negates all conditions for its duration since the very transformation is a full time whirl finisher (or do you not understand how fields and finishers work?)

Mesmer is in a very weak spot. It has access to only one combo field type and ONE blast finisher on a junk weapon that is on a long cooldown that has specific requirements to proc the blast. (Yes I know the focus is a light field but how often do people make use of it and why use a mes for lightfields when guards are around?)
Meanwhile Ele, Engi, Warr, Guard have access to a ridiculous amount of blast finishers (when was the last time anyone thanked the mesmer for blasting that fire field for 25stacks of might?)
Mesmer burst is subpar to, well everyone static discharge engis make short work of entire teams some times. Necros AOE condition damage is god right now. Ranger spirit buffs give the entire team a 10% damage bonus on top of any damage bonus they may get from traits, runes, etc not to mention AOE protection (for mesmer to do AOE protection they have to spec a very specific way and take a very specific utility which is generally garbage.) S/D eles are becoming the new one shot builds and engis and guards are still kings of bunkering. Where does a mesmer fit in?
We bring nothing to the group for support that can’t be done better by another profession (iDefender is garbage in team fights and easily negated through spam happy blinds.)
Our damage is easily out done by almost every other class. We have no group damage buffs, no group condi clear, terrible AOE pressure, and our condition builds are laughed right out of teams by necros and engis (even warriors) and we can’t properly bunker thanks to garbage condition clear and about 3-4 other professions that can do it 20x better than us.

So yes I do think mesmers need some massive help right now. There was not a single mesmer in the EU/NA prelims for pax Doesn’t that speak volumes to how bad of a spot this class is in? Or are you still on a crusade to have eles move back up to god hood?

Arheundel.6451:

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

Are you seriously suggesting that mesmer needs help?

-most viable builds in the whole game ( 1.5 builds for ele and several for the mesmer)
-most polished set of utilities ( wanna compare mantra to conjure? mes signets to ele signets? maybe our glyphs? )
-most polished set of weapons ( ever seen a staff ele in tPvP? a focus ele?)

You complain that mesmers are overly weak to conditions when using a burst build…on my ele I need to trait for condition removal to survive this meta, I need to invest all my utilities to do that, a mesmer can have a burst build and still equip utilites that can change the fate of battle..or entire games ( portal-illusion of life- null field )

Other professions look at your utilities with envy, there is no choice for the other professions, it’s always 3-4 utilities out of 20, maybe there are only 3-4 utilities that I’ve never seen equipped on a mesmer ( mimic- feedback – signet of inspiration and midnight )

You’ve got not a single useless elite..not a single one, look at :

-ele : tornado – FGS
- engineer: mortar, elixir X

Like have you ever seen these elites being used during a serious tPvP match?

Eventually ranger and necro may be toned down a little but under no circumstances the mesmer should receive any buff whatsoever

Yes I am serioiusly suggesting that mesmer needs help. Ele has a signet that cures one condition every 10 seconds. FREAKING GODLY when compared to a mesmer condi removal… Oh wait we have condi removal?

Mesmer has the most viable builds? Are you flipping kidding me. Any team comp it is are you shatter? Yes. Okay, do you have IOL, Portal, Moa (it used to be timewarp).
That leaves ONE option for the mesmer to choose for their utilities.

Should I compare mantra to conjure… Hmmm how many mantra mesmers do you see running around top tier tourneys? I have seen some zerker eles that use FGS. Are conjure weapons on the whole a little lack luster. Sure.
Eles now have more than a couple viable builds thanks to the fresh air and not to mention you can trait for stability every 10 seconds. Did I MENTION YOU CAN TRAIT FOR STABILITY EVERY 10s?

Glyphs well now that GOEP is a stun breaker you are seeing more eles run it. Most run triple cantrip still because it is a stun breaker, with traits it grants regen which by the way can be also traited to cure a condition. If mesmers vitality line was that good we would be all over it I promise you that. But atm it is still one of the worst vit lines in the game and the worst line for mesmers hence why few people but phantasm mesmers go deep into inspiration at all.

Most polished set of weapons? Are you effing serious again. Only until recently has the mesmer greatsword not sucked (YAY FOR the illusionary berserker bug hitting for 1k a pass and missing entirely sometimes.)
Shall we compare mesmer scepter to ele scepter? How many ele scepter skills in air are instant cast and as such almost unblockable.
And yes I have seen a staff ele in pvp and he actually does amazing as a homepoint bunker. Maybe you should talk to him. Staff eles have problems because they try to do zerker things in melee range with a ranged weapon.

Mesmers are extremely weak to conditions compared to any other class. Your zerker ele may need to trait somewhat to get condi clear but you still have it in a weapon set and a FULL CONDI CLEAR IN YOUR HEALING SKILL mesmers spend 10pts to clear one condition every heal skill and few mesmers tank mantra of recovery because it sucks. After that we have to take nullfield which got somewhat of a buff but is still one of mesmers only choices for condi clear and if they bring that THEY DON"T HAVE A STUNBREAK

Continued>

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

In general grenades=condi. However a static discharge zerker build would prolly work well with anything. The goal of static discharge is to take the toolbelt skills with the lowest CD.

Having said that if you get nothing but zerker gear you could prolly run a successful HGH zerker nades build. But engis bring so much to the party through elixir gun/healing turret and the most blast finishers in the game…. you sure you wanna do zerker?

Daishi.6027:

Keep the condi cleave the same =p

Remember our buff from December when we got 3 stacks per illusion on shattered might?

Bring that back~ bump it to grand master and make I-cleriry a master minor.

Then nerf ranger healing.

So many people will bash me for this and I may have a flawed opinion but I think it would make AoE burst just as strong as the condi cleave, when you throw hammer warriors into the mix.

People will still melt either way but will force in a new meta and prospective of counter play or even more hybrids because players will be weary of both, perhaps promote more cluch offensive plays with a healthy mix of condi and burst cleave.

This sooo much this. Anet has successfully gutted mesmers. Time to give us meaningful buffs.

Evion.6298:

I believe ANET really needed mesmers out of tpvp for the following reason screen clutter a Mesmer with 3 clones in a fight would be too confusing for the viewer so they balanced the game in advance to benefit classes that were more screen friendly that’s why the condition appliers got improved, or you can call me conspiracy theory master whatevs

Because those teams that had spirit rangers or spirit weapon guardians weren’t causing any clutter at all right?

So far no team that has been in the NA tournament for pax. Has a single mesmer. Not one single mesmer that I have seen

May not ever happen.
Illusionary Membrane-ICD needs decreased. Right now this is a big reason that mesmers can’t bunker.

Iavra.8510:

Bump + another update:

The Prestige (Torch #4, major):
- blast finisher now happens on cast.

This one finally needs to happen why can eles get a blast finisher on cast and we can’t. We not only have to wait til the end of cast if we move outside of the field while stealthed welose the bonus of the ffield we were in (churning earth+lightning flash). However if we move into a new field we won’t get that bonus either.

Fenrir.5493:

This discussion has to stop, people that are posting here are just defending his hidden agenda:

The Boz – obviously has a necro condition op class and he does not want his lolipop to be stealed from him.

jportell- has a bunker and he wants to tank conditions….

Basically the old bunker meta vs the new condi meta fighting.

This is not going to end until people stops to push their hidden agendas…

The truth is that condition damage has no real counter, there is no stat in the game or a boon that clearly states and does reduce condition damage, that is the issue, and needs to be adressed carefully, because if they dont do that, what is going to happen is that we are going back to the bunker meta, wich is not a good step.

^This. yes I have a bunker and I do want to “tank” conditions. However what you stated at the bottom is what I have been trying to push all along and it is the absolute truth.

Bunkers hard counter is S/d thief since most bunker builds depend on having a lot of boons up at all times. S/D thief is hard countered by getting pinged and then focused in team fights.
Conditions have no direct hard counter. Bunkers have always had a hard counter in 1vx fights. Issue is conditions get more powerful the more people are in the fight. Big difference.

So yeah nice game except for you are wrong because bunkers do have a hard counter.

The Boz.2038:

Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…

jportell.2197:

Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.

Condition comp wins.

Untrue. Watch the qualifiers, start watching streams, etc. Teams with more than two condition classes lose consistently. Are you now claiming that two of anything is stacking it? Does this mean that all until now we were in a physical-is-op meta because everyone stacked physical damage?

before this people had a condi, a burster, two bunkers, and a roamer. They may have stacked 2 condi classes or 2 burster classes, or two bunkers. However until recently all comps had a fair chance of success. But now we are seeing teams that stack sometimes upto 3 necros then a spirit ranger and maybe a bunker, or an s/d thief. Right now these classes are having a very hard time fitting meaningfully into a team comp
-mesmer
-Warrior
-Ele
-guard

More often than not I will face teams that have absoluteley none of these.

The Boz.2038:

Yes, because all attacks that cause conditions are unblockable, undodgeable, unevadeable, unblindable, unaegisable, uninterruptible, they have no cast times or casting animations, and place a full stack of 25 bleeds with every hit…

Hyperbole right there. However avoiding burst punishes the burster. Avoiding the initial condition damage is of no consequence to the applier because another condition can quickly and easily be applied after the defender has tried mitigating the damage in several other ways.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Guards and Eles can’t handle condis? What condition can Warriors bring that’s AoE? I’m blanking.

AOE burn that increases with adrenaline level and can cover the entire point with the most damaging condition in the game. And that isn’t even everything a warrior can do with a longbow. Then we have sword sword which now packs torment. Not AOE but still some ridiculous condition damage in that weapon set.

And guards and eles can’t handle condis when it is against an entire team that is stacked with nothing but condition classes.

Right now condition comp v. balanced comp.

Condition comp wins.

Except that now that people have gotten wise to just how good condition damage is and how hard it is to counter. They are bringing condi warriors-Condi engis-condi rangers-condi necros. This is starting to push other classes out Mesmers-guards-eles specifically. They are stacking condi heavy builds across all classes and stacking AOE condis through warriors/rangers/necros is what is getting out of hand.

@ The Boz : I have stated SEVERAL and I mean several times that if bunkers become the hard counter the counter to teams that stacks bunkers is higher DPS. Stacking bunkers is and HAS BEEN a liability since the start. You may be able to keep a fight going indefinitely with stacked bunkers however if it is a neutral or a point that belongs to the other team the stacked bunkers aren’t doing anything to further the cause of the game.
Stacking bunkers will always be a bigger liability than stacking anything else because it is always necessary to to have more damaging people in your team than support. This is why you have never seen more than one or two bunkers on a team. They used to be able to hold people til the team arrived. Now they get steam rolled through conditions.

The actual proof for the overpoweredness of conditions is seeing that the “top” teams are doing more and more stacking of condition builds and that is what is winning the games for them.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Complete removal is as hard of a counter as I can think of. You can also dodge the application of conditions. Or block it, etc.

Telling people they’re idiots for defending condition damage doesn’t make your argument more compelling. I’m open to the idea that conditions are too strong, but no one has made a really compelling argument for it in my opinion, including myself.

I also consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Have you done that lately? Maybe you’re wrong, and conditions are fine. Given that scenario, what do you do?

Ease of application vs. difficulty of removal for several classes is showing that conditions aren’t fine. Also the complete lack of these classes in any competitive scene is showing that conditions are over powered. The transition of people that mained one class switching to another because they cannot keep up is a show that conditions are overpowered. The opinions of top players on the current state of the meta is showing that conditions are overpowered. In fact the ONLY people that seem to be defending the craziness of condition application are the ones that main the most guilty classes for the over the top condition damage. And the big difference between the current culprits (necros) from the former culprits (hgh Engis) is several

-Grenades very slow moving can actually be sidestepped obvious animation.
-Marks. All have the same animation and only recently are they somewhat counterable thanks to the much needed greater marks nerf.
-HGH engi heaviliy relies on boons such as might and fury to be effective.
-S/d thieves are the natural counter to that while necros conditions can be spiked up not to mention the ease at which they can tank several bursts thanks to the recent buff (yes I SAID BUFF!) to death shroud making necros counters much harder to get.
-Those are the big differences for why hgh engi while OP do not even come close to the ridiculousness of the condition spam that necros can dish out.

Necro conditions have this- unobvious animations. (certain attacks such as enfeebling blood may have cast times but the animation is nowhere near as obvious as say a mesmer lifting their GS high into the air giving everyone a big hint thakittens TIME TO DODGE! or a warrior doing a huge leap for their earthshaker)
Almost negligible effects (there is a well on the ground but is it well of suffering/power/darkness/corruption?) they all look the freaking same in a team fight.
Ease of application- necros can spit out damaging conditions and stack them up much easier than any other class.
However when classes build to counter them (I take runes of melandru, AR, and a condi cleanse) they still are not bringing enough to actually be a direct counter. This is an issue everything in this game should have a hard direct counter. Bunker builds have their counter when they start getting trained by more than one person it becomes increasingly harder to stay alive.

With AOE condi spam the more people in the fight the easier your job becomes because the more targets you are hitting and doing damage to especially DOTs on entire teams which start to become increasingly difficult to cleanse the more condition damage builds the opposing team has.

Alkaholic.3875:

Necros DO have counters.

- AR Elixir bomb Engies
- CC warriors

AR elixir bomb engis only survive a bit longer and if a necro has good timing the engi is screwed long before 25% health. So many others have also stated how easy it is for a necro to kite around and soft cc (cripple/chill) warriors.

Tenebrous.2451:

@jp

It looks like you did not catch my edit, so lets give it a try:

Put a condi cleanse on your bar and use it with some modicum of intelligence and bunker away. To be really pedantic, try looking at Melandru’s runes, and there is a sigil or two, and probably some traits that will help. You have to take condi as seriously as you take direct damage. You have to figure it into your build and take some tradeoffs for goodness sake.

The reason why people are whining so much about condi builds is that they refuse to do that, understand the threat and adapt accordingly.

Or perhaps your build and playstyle is particularly susceptible to conditions.

I would add there are combo fields (Light) that can help too, though I do not know if the mesmer has access to them off had.

Having looked at your build, Mantra of Resolve is a looser vs current state of things, no question about that, but other cleanses are better.

I have actually shelved my mesmer because the majority of the mesmer community agrees THIS CLASS IS kittenED AGAINST ANY CONDITION BUILDS! Mantra of resolve is still the mesmers best bet against condi damage except for maybe iDisenchanter which sucks hard in a team fight.
I run an elixir bomb AR engi right now. Guess what it still is no better. And I do pack a condi cleanse (elixir C and the heal skill) . And Make use of the light field while my teams ele tornados (tons of cleansing bolts) or we have our warrior do his whirling axe. Mesmer has access to ONE light field and no real way to make use of it except for using the iWarden and even then getting that combo off is almost impossible.

And necros already try to claim that engis 25% HP trait is OP. And our response is to finally bring a kittening direct damage/burst class. And stop relying completely on condis to do their work. And AR is only a counter to necros if the necro has nothing but condition damage and terrible timing. It isn’t hard to recognize if an engi is likely to be packing this trait long before 25% just based off how they do their damage.
Really the idiocy of some people defending condition damage and its lack of a direct counter baffle me.

The Boz.2038:

…and you continue to avoid the issue… Amazing.

Issue: Condition damage has no HARD COUNTER.
Everything else in this game has a HARD COUNTER.
Condition damage needs a HARD COUNTER.
Vitality is not a hard counter. And condition removal compared to condition application is grossly imbalanced. Condition removal may need brought down in some classes (NECROS) while upped in others (Warriors, engis, certain ranger builds, mesmers). In general though a huge issue is the class that is most responsible for the AOE condi spam also has the best defense against conditions. We could even go as far as saying that if we really want vitality to be considered the counter to conditions. Well necros got that down packed certain players have tested the exact amount that life force at full is and they got it to total around 60% of the players base health. So a necro that ups their life force can still do somewhat decent AOE condi damage while having the highest vitality in game. I find this to be grossly imbalanced other people do as well. Only necros that seem to be relishing in their god mode are the ones that refuse to acknowledge how stupidly out of control the condition spam meta is and how it lacks any real and meaningful HARD COUNTER.

Bottom line Condition damage needs a BETTER HARD COUNTER. As someone else has pointed out in this thread

Bunker>Burst
Condition Damage>Burst
Condition Damage>Bunker
Condition Damage>All.
See the problem here? Or are you still blinded by your own necros god mode (see the Boz’s thread stating Feedback on necromancer changes) This thread is nothing more than a kitten fest about how necros got so picked on because the stupidly OP dumbfire trait suffered a minor nerf which is just made up with the stacking of spirit rangers now.

Cogbyrn.7283:

jportell.2197:

@ The Boz Citation http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bunker

“A good bunker build can easily hold 1-2 players without dying until their team comes back to assist. Bunker builds are designed for survivability, to be able to remain in the area of the capture point, and so denying the opposition starting the capture timer”

“until their team comes back to assist”

Which means a bunker should be able to live long enough for support to arrive without losing the point.

Not indefinitely.

And in any 1v1 this may be indefinitely. Why have your team come help if you can keep someone there trying to kill you while you own the point knowing they won’t. In a 1v2 it becomes the determination of the bunker whether or not they need the help. If a bunker is 1v2 and not dying great. It is on the opposition to determine if it is worth their trouble to try and win a fight when they realize they can’t kill the bunker.