Guild Wars 2

Scythe.3024:

Here’s the logic of the complainers asking for to be easier:

“Hey, I don’t have the endurance or skill to compete in the Olympics so you should make the events easier so everyone can do them.”

No, sorry, that’s not how the world works when it comes to challenges and accomplishments, people.

Ummm, you do know what comparing real life apples to pixelated oranges does for your point, I hope?

There are several ways to keep the difficulty level for those who enjoy that type of challenge -and- making the puzzle more accessible to a wider play base as well. But you know this because I’ve seen you on at least one other thread where you said this exact same comment even though people were offering up various ideas for solutions in an effort to make as many players happy as possible. This comment of yours there, which did nothing to address any of the issues being raised, still does nothing to address those same issues here. Could you offer -any- constructive input?

ToxicToothpick.4396:

Waah! This video game is difficult! Waah!

Grow up.
It’s not poorly designed puzzle, and it’s not impossible.
It’s also entirely optional, and you get very little for actually doing it so you’re not missing anything skipping it.

It’s for those of us that want to do a challenge that is difficult because it is difficult.

You wrote a comment like that and think it’s the OP that needs to grow up? My irony meter just exploded.

Having this puzzle be instanced, soloable -or- grouped, fix the camera bugs and only ONE chest looting per account per day, would have gone a long way to making this puzzle better. It would keep the difficulty of the puzzle itself while making it more accessible, would have kept people from farming the chest who are very skilled at these types of things which made it even harder for others to do the puzzle and increased waiting periods horridly, and also flooding the economy, and so on. They could have also made an easy, moderate or hard mode instanced puzzle with rewards based on difficulty so players had options available, while keeping the one chest per day rule to stop farming etc. There w-ere- and -are- ways they could have made this puzzle MUCH more accessible to a wider player base without being an all-or-nothing proposition so many of think it has to be.

Jrunyon.3012:

If you’re having this much trouble at the start then its good you didnt get past it because you’d have no chance of finishing it since it only gets much harder. If youre harboring so much rage because you arent able to finish an OPTIONAL puzzle then perhaps its better that you stop playing videogames and get some help. Also, where are you pulling the fact that most people dont get past the start from? Ive ran it a number of times with many different groups and in most cases everyone has been able to finish it. Its unfortunate that you are having difficulty with it but not everything is catered to people who cant use a mouse and keyboard efficiently.

Belittling, condescending and suggesting that the OP needs “help” (eluding to professional therapy etc). Nice comment ya got there. I fully recommend you take that attitude into the real world…use it on your boss even…and see how far you get with it.

To the OP: You are far from alone as the MANY threads can attest. Yes, there will be those individuals who will tell you in very many ways “learn to play” or “you just need to get skillz” or how easy it was for them etc but they do that because, even with having that accomplishment, they are empty. The accomplishment in and of itself is valueless to them. It only has value in that they can lord it over others in order to bring others low in an effort to make themselves feel like “more”. And really, a little perspective goes a long way…this “accomplishment” is a line of pixels saying you jumped a bunch of pixels with a cartoon character and pair of pixelated slippers which will mean less than nothing a few weeks from now and exactly nothing once you leave the game and move on to something else.

The REAL point of a game…is the “fun” it gives you. For some people the fun is in doing hard puzzles like that and that’s perfectly okay. If you find, after a certain length of time, you are NOT having “fun” then the point of “gaming” or playing that specific portion of “the game” is gone. Time to move on to what IS actually bring you enjoyment within the game…or in another game, if/when it comes to that. It’s all about the fun. If it becomes “work”, feels like “work”, has the stress of an agenda like a "
job" does…pfffft, screw it and move on to what equates itself as playtime.

Cyric.7485:

Just like you don’t have to do the puzzle if it’s too hard for you. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if you don’t.

I’ve already stated I have no desire to worry about the puzzle until -maybe- next year once they have some of the more agreed upon issues such a the camera movement, the banners and speed buffs etc worked out. I have no idea if it’s too hard foe -me- or not. I recognize that for MANY players it is and that many of their reasons are quite valid and I would think so even had I completed the puzzle and then it was in some way moderated for the rest of the holiday. Why? Because I don’t place the level of my personal feelings of success and/or achievement on whether or not someone ELSE can do what I have done. My level of success is based solely upon my own personal satisfaction that I’ve done it. Helping others and wanting others to have that same experience, and making that experience more accessible to them, in no way devalues my personal accomplishments. If they do for -you-, then I pity you that you base the value of your accomplishments only in comparison to others and not see them as having a personal value for themselves regardless of what others have or have not done.

ykyk.2740:

Unless, of course, the content was designed so that certain people can do it while others can’t. That was sort of my point. Some people don’t want an easy mode option.

Then don’t PLAY the easy mode option. Simple. It’s no skin off -your- nose if others do.

ykyk.2740:

I don’t understand why the discussion has shifted to disabled gamers. Obviously the notion that the difficulty should be lowered to cater to disabled gamers is ridiculous – where do you stop? Do you then cater it to toddlers? Do you start catering it to gamers with greater degrees of disability? Say you make it so people with a slight disability can complete it. Oh, here’s a gamer with an even more debilitating condition, and since you lowered the difficulty for the previous group of gamers you have to do it again! Eventually all games will be at the level where infant monkeys rolling their faces on a keyboard can beat it.

This is not a problem of discrimination but the fact that you CAN’T design content without having a TARGET AUDIENCE. This particular piece of content was DESIGNED to be difficult and requiring a certain degree of dexterity and coordination. By design, not the entire playing population will be able to complete it. Bringing in disability as an argument to attempt to lower the difficulty of something DESIGNED to be difficult is…silly. It was never MEANT to be able to be done by everyone.

Obviously you are only reading the parts of the discussion you want to read and missing the whole offered solution where EVERYONE is made happy by offering difficulty levels, either grouped or solo, timed or not timed, in an instanced puzzle zone for holiday puzzles along with a sliding scale of rewards to go with the level of difficulty. See? Simple. EVERYONE is happy. The “target audience” should be the player base not just a small portion of the player base. Especially in a F2P game where maintaining the highest number of active players is key to profits.

Unless certain people can ONLY be happy if they get to puff out their chests and say “I did it and YOU can’t! Neener neener neener!”?

AlecFair.1270:

While the JP reminds me on what happens when you mix classic mario jumping with sonic speed in an acid pit (fun times chemical plant zone). I would agree with a slight speed nerf but at the same time I enjoy the puzzle because of the nostalgia of old NES titles that had the same “Deal with it” difficulty. But the leetists that finished the puzzle going against the nerf need to remember this is an MMO Rpg and not Major League Gaming. There are other people with a different skill level than most some lower and some higher. The best that most of the “completers” should do is help out the weaker people instead of telling them how much they suck at a game to fill their kittens.

Kitten kitten kitten kitten kitten (just because that is a funny thing to say.)

Someone with perspective. How refreshing. Good on you!

neon.4863:

RenRen.5706:

Wouldn’t toning down the difficulty for the disabled be a slap in the face to them either way? You’re basically saying “Here you go. We made this easier just for you ‘cause you don’t have what it takes.”

There’s a disabled player in the Street Fighter community who plays with his kittening tongue and face and Capcom hasn’t shown any signs of making the game more accessible to him. And he frequents tournaments, where the best of the best play.

There’s a disabled player who plays GW2 PvP with a pen in his mouth and does well. ANet hasn’t catered the game around him either.

If I may say so, what feels like a slap to me is seeing all these comments about how you just need to work on your skill or deal with it.

There are many things a disabled person has to deal with that someone without a disability can’t possibly understand, because they’re things that never need to occur to them. For instance, going up stairs is a simple task if you can walk perfectly, but if you can’t or are in a wheelchair, the level of difficulty is increased tremendously.

So what’s a difficult puzzle for someone without a disability becomes an even more difficult puzzle for someone with one.

Likewise, someone with a disability has to develop skills someone without doesn’t in order to get around their disability – for instance, playing with their tongue and face, or playing with a pen. These extra skills take time to master – longer than the couple of days during which this puzzle is available.

People with a disability are already constantly reminded of their limitations by everyday tasks. It’s harsh when something in a game – which is a thing you do for fun – pokes the wound, so to speak.

I’m not saying we should dumb it down, it’s frustrating but not the end of the world to be unable to do it. But the lack of empathy some people here display is astounding. It couldn’t hurt to at least be more understanding of the fact some people just aren’t as dexterous as others, so this isn’t as fun for them, but they would have liked to be able to do it regardless.

I cannot applaud this comment enough. This is why making the puzzle instanced, not timed, and available in different difficult levels would be the answer for everyone. It will be ultra hard for those who can or want to do it that way (and with the rewards to match) and less so for people who merely want the achievement based on the level of difficulty they choose. No one is left out.

Stobor.8041:

There are special institutions for people with disabilities. All of the world realizes that disabled people have less possibilities but you think otherwise. In fact if you think that a person with trisomy 21 is not inferior to a normal person it says a lot about you.

“Special institutions for people with disabilities”
“if you think a person with trisomy21 is not inferior to a normal person…”

People with disabilities do not need to be institutionalized. What era are you from exactly with this type of mind set? You do know, or maybe you don’t, that people with various disabilities hold down full time jobs, have families, pay taxes, and so on.

And no, a person with Down’s Syndrome (aka trimosy21) is NOT “inferior” to me and knowing that -does- say a lot about me just as thinking they -are- “inferior” to you says even more about you. I can’t report you enough for your disparaging remarks about people with disabilities in general and those who play this game specifically.

Yes, yes and yes to the OP. I haven’t gotten this far but I’ve seen whats in store for me during this whole second part of the storyline via a friend and I can’t say I’m at all impressed. I’m only going to finish the storyline quest for the sake of seeing it thru but on my alts…if I do, I do and if I don’t..oh well. The story stops being about how -I- change Tyria and effect “history” but how I helped the REAL hero do it….like I am merely tagging along as a sidekick. The final nail in the coffin, so to speak, is the end where I don’t really do kitten, nor do I even get to be in my own cut-scene, etc. I mean really…how is that “all about you” anyway?

I rally can’t add anything to the above comments other than to say I agree with the OP and many of the supporting comments here in the hopes that AN will take this to heart.

Personally I feel the game caters to warriors/guardians. They can wade in and kill it while every other class has to hop around the mob like a bunny with it’s behind on fire while simultaneously trying to hit it. So, unless you don’t mind getting carpel tunnel syndrome by trying to hit all your movement keys and skills and specials in a mad rush every time you engage more than one mob at a time (which is made inevitable by the way they make the aggro work and the spawn areas) …roll a warrior or guardian. I know I know….it’s a disappointing answer but you’ll see that answer “roll a warrior” on just about every class forum (including the thief one) if you dare to say anything about being squishy. That and the typical “learn to play” or “I’ve never had any problems and I soloed bosses on -mine-” type answers (to which I grant a HUGE grain of salt whenever I read them).

Same experience and I chose whispers too. Had I known more….

Stobor.8041:

And i hope people that do end up with disabilities realize that they are not equal with other people..

That says a lot about you right there.

Stobor.8041:

Although I can understand that the more gifted and experienced players among us seek a challenge, there are people who have sadly issues which prevent them from finishing this JP, for example:
- Age.
- Disabilities.
- Slow reflexes.

Cant stop laughing. “I cant complete the dungeon because im a 70IQ blind person with only 1 hand, Its not right that not all people can enjoy the content. NERF IT!”

Spoken by someone who obviously has never had to struggle with such things or watch someone they love do so. And, I hope to goodness, you never do. It’s not easy having your entire life narrowed down severely and even when you log into a game to get away from it for a while, have it slap you in the face there as well. Again, I hope you never have to face those things or ever have to watch -your- child struggle with them only to be mocked by people like you on forums such as these knowing there is nothing you can do to help them enjoy those things people like you take for granted.

Linc.8956:

Catering to the lowest common skill level denominator of a gamer is definitely not what I want to see Anet doing. It’s great that everyone wants to be 100% the best, but games are designed to be challenging and that means not always winning in PvE scenarios. This jumping puzzle finally was just what I was looking for.

Incorrect. Games are designed to be fun. The level of challenge involved defines what is and is not fun to each individual. Making the level of challenge static and therefore “fun” to only a small select portion of your entire player base is a recipe for disaster…especially in a F2P MMO which needs to maintain a high level of active players willing to spend real life money for in game items which normally come “free” in a P2P games as rewards for content completion, etc. Therefore, a good long term business model would be one that offers a RANGE of challenge available to suit the wider player base in order to keep that larger population of players logging in long term. To that end, the puzzle could have had Difficulty modes, be instanced, have a soloable and group mode, etc so all players could choose which mode best suited them. The rewards for each mode could be scaled to match the level of difficulty as well. BUT, that would mean AN would have had to invest their profits via time, resources, paid employees etc into the game which they appear unwilling to do except in the most basic of ways. It almost appears as though they are going to milk the cow for the first year or two, feeding it just enough but with little intention of keeping that cow viable long term. This is just my initial observation which is subject to change if AN gives me reason to change it.

Supervillain.8617:

Saying “it’s doable” does nothing to alleviate the frustration this puzzle is causing. I’ve been at it a total of 10 hours now, and despite memorizing all the jumps from the videos, running through it as meticulously as possible and avoiding any groups with high norn and charr population, I still haven’t made it even to the big fall in the middle. Partly due to latency, partly due to the fact that I’m a human being and not perfect, and partly due to some major glitches.

Congratulations, you finished the puzzle, just like several others who also felt the need to say so.

Agreed.

Let’s give them all a hand…. you are the uber gods of gaming…we bow before you. Feel better? This is why I haven’t bothered with that puzzle.

To those who’ve completed the puzzle and are offering constructive/supportive advice to others: Good on you! People like you are really wonderful and it’s nice to know you’re here on the forums trying to help others.

To the others who are just patting themselves on the back and/or gloating at the expense of those who are voicing their frustrations or seeking advice…kitten off. Go make a mutual admiration society thread where you can all tell each other how wondrous you all are for being able to complete a pixelated puzzle in a video game, roflol!

To those of you beating yourselves up over this puzzle: Define what is “fun” for you. If you, like me, are a collector of achievements etc you’ll really want to do this puzzle and not have to wait a full year more if you cant get it this time around. BUT! Are you having fun? That is the bottom line. If the puzzle is, in and of itself, “fun” (even if frustrating) then by all means keep trying. If you find that the payout of a line of pixels saying you did it is not really worth the level of anxiety or frustration you are investing…then just walk away. Maybe try again next year and hopefully by then they will NEED to rethink some of these things in order to maintain a player base because by the time you’re 80 end game content is nill and repetitive at best so people will stop logging in even with a content patch.

Seriously, decide why you play a game. I play a game to have fun, to help me forget my constant pain due to a chronic pain condition, and to just put the stresses of real life aside for a while. Why, in the name of all that’s holy, would I simply want to involve myself in a whole new set of stress inducing activity in a game? How is that fun? For me, it’s not. For others the puzzle itself, and conquering it, -is- the fun…not the reward of a line on their achievement list saying they did the puzzle…nor is the chest at the end which will contain items likely soon to be outgrown or taking up space in the bank or sold. If you aren’t having fun…and it’s the fun that you look for in your game…then just shrug it off and leave it to do something you are actually enjoying whether that something else is in the game or not associated with the game at all.

This game will have a relatively short life span for me, I think, unless AN rethinks a lot of the ways they handle the content, their approach to customer feedback, how well they address the in game bugs and if they throw one type of player base (namely the casuals which are mainly PvE players) to the dogs and cater mainly to another player base (PvP, sPvP, and WvW players).

The game is very young yet so I’m more than willing to stick around and give it a good shot. But Holiday events structured like these are doesn’t bode well for keeping me, or many but the most loyal “fan boi/gurl” players, for the long term. I give a short lifespan of two years (if things don’t change) before the active player base dwindles and most move on to the next newest game. Just my opinion. I accept that others’ will differ and that’s perfectly okay.

I keep trying to find where people are saying they want it to be “easy”. Those complaining about people wanting it to be easy must be reading posts I’m not in this thread. I’ve never seen one comment on this thread or the several others, where anyone has said “I want this to be easy”. There is a rather large difference between wanting something to be changed such as not having it be a forced group or timed puzzle and saying they want it to be “easy”. Why must people always read the extremes into everything. There is also a difference in saying they would like it be “easier” and “easy” and usually “easier” means not a forced group or timed puzzle…NOT in changing the difficulty of the puzzle itself.

Why are the elitists gamers soooo threatened by the very idea of tweaking the puzzle?

Ryuujin.8236:

mrsrachelm.7618:

nor does the fact that you were capable of jumping some pixels in a video game make you somehow a better person when you log off, ROFLOL!

If they make the puzzle less difficult then what’s it to you if you’ve already done it?Grow up. people.

If jumping on some pixels isn’t a big deal, why be so upset that you can’t do it?

Where did I say “I can’t do it”? I’ll wait…..

Mastruq.2463:

I think characters that are too low level to complete the event cycle on their own should just wait until next year.

I had alot of fun doing it on my higher level and would not want them to kitten the events just because some people have OCD about doing the thing 5 times within this week. I have 3 characters between 6 and 22 that wont complete the memoirs this year, no big deal.

While I understand the frustration for those who want to complete it on their lower or mid levels alts, I agree with your comment.

I collect achievements but I know none of my current toons are capable of it this year. Bummer? Well ,sure it is. Tragic? Not in the least. I’m hoping next year they’ll have rethought some of the events a tad, like the clock tower puzzle being group only and timed and I won’t be in the position many find themselves and pulling my hair out by the roots due to the stress it invokes. I have found that every MMO has things in their holiday events that are -for- higher levels as well as some -for- lower levels to part in. In this gimmie it all and gimmie it right the heck now sense of entitlement without having to wait until they are -able- is indicative of the sad state of our modern world.

It should NOT be a forced group event.
It should be instanced so everyone can get in if they wish to try it
It should NOT be timed (no jumping puzzle should imo)
If you’ve achieved it once, you should not be allowed to enter the instance again on any character in an attempt to farm it until the next year.

If the above were true, even if it was just around for the holiday event only, it would still be a lot more accessible to all players and give all players (including those with various conditions in real life that force them to go slowly) the ability to try and/or complete it. IT would also stop players from farming the chests so they wouldn’t ahve had to nerf the chest. As it is, I’m glad they did nerf it.

And for you elitists that are dead set against making the puzzle more accessible to others, allowing others to achieve it in no way takes anything away from you. Next, you’ll be saying…when I was a lad I had to carry water uphill in a leaky bucket in ten feet of snow, blah blah blah. You have it soooo easy because it was nerfed (inferring that you are somehow just a better person or player than everyone else). Good grieff and I pity you if -that- is how you define your worth. This is a game…not brain surgery. It’s no skin off your nose if others get the achievement because the puzzle is made more accessible than it was when you did it.

I agree with this nerf. Was glad to see it.

I’m not even bothering about it this year. There are too many people who are actually -trying- to block people and if something in a game isn’t fun…I say “kitten it” and move on. Would i like to have the achievement? Sure. I enjoy collecting achievements etc but there comes a time when I weigh a pixelated “achievement” which means absolutely nothing and will be forgotten in a week or two against the “fun” I’m having in trying to achieve it. If the “fun” is sucked out of it…and I play a game to have fun…then why bother? If I’m getting all stressed out and pissed off by a bunch of pixels, it’s way past time for me to move on to something else. Eventually that will mean the game in its entirety.

I’m always amused by those individuals who can’t seem to grasp the idea that they don’t lose their achievement in game, nor a sense of achievement, for having done the clock tower puzzle IF it is made a bit easier and others get to achieve it too. It takes nothing away from you. Your “achievement” is nothing more and nothing less than it is regardless of it the difficulty is eased a little. It doesn’t in any way effect -your- self-centered little worlds nor does the fact that you were capable of jumping some pixels in a video game make you somehow a better person when you log off, ROFLOL!

If they make the puzzle less difficult then what’s it to you if you’ve already done it?Grow up. people.

How self-centered of you, LOL.

I am just slightly into flipping and have found a nice little niche (which I am not stupid enough to advertise, lol) but I’m certainly not making the kind of coin some -claim- to be making. Of course, I log in to actually play the content in the game not spend 4 plus hours with my pixelated behind at the trading post. :P

Unless you’re a level 80, or you are lucky in in TP, making money is NOT as easy as everyone likes to brag about it being. THis is why I’m glad the prices of things on the TP are so low. No one but 80’s could afford them for their lower level toons otherwise and that gets incredibly old incredibly fast when you’re trying to level a toon in a gear centric game.

I agree with the OP completely. I also think it understandable that pets “of a kind” will have very similar skill sets. They really need to revamp the in game UI information about the pets because there really is none until you actually equip and call them to find out what each one’s stats are and what they “do”. Even then the special skills (like the example used above about boars and their forage) don’t give enough information for a ranger to make an informed choice of a pet for specific needs prior to engagement in combat. It would be nice to know the differences up front in the UI where all the charmed pets are shown.

I want pets that stay within the GW lore/universe and not turn it into a WoW clone pets-wise. Having said that, a badger, a mist wolf, and -maybe- the addition of a spirit type pet but that last is tip-toeing dangerously close to WoW. I’ve yet to see a snake in game and don’t recall them being a part of GW (but I obviously could be wrong since it’s been a long time since I played the original GW games and really don’t recall) and even though I would love one as a combat pet, I only want things that are a part of GW and nothing else. Would love to have a griffon.

As I have no interest in, or level of crafting for, the candy corn recipes I am using this as an opportunity to do the legwork for other folks and sell this new “asset” on the TP. I went out first thing and harvested my little picks out, lol and started marketing them ASAP while the prices and demand would still be high. Made a decent little nest egg for myself. Now that the prices have dropped, I’ll just hoard them in my bank until either the selling price rises again or I decide to use them myself down the road or even next year. The sweetness of the candy corn was had by the glitter of the gold I made from it.

Valnar Arylith.5793:

can a moderator please close this thread. the devs have already said no mounts so why the big huhar. and if you don’t like it, then don’t play simple. but as i’ve said in a previous post about mounts. it’s to do with the LORE!!!!! they were not in guild wars lore. so why invent them just to make some people happy. no thank you. it would ruin the game in my eyes and no doubt many other peoples eyes too. so plese can someone put and end to this mount nonesence. thank you.

I second this plea. PLEASE devs, just make a general post somewhere saying “no” (again) and close all discussion already.

Kaimick.5109:

Here plain and simple if you want mounts go to World of Warcraft if you like Guild Wars than stop trying to make it WoW.

Agreed. Mounts in WoW were like fleas on a dog….and it made everything horrid. If that’s someone’s thing…that’s the game for them!

Bucheeri.4163:

Am i the only one thinking abt this? i find it pointless to unlock the colors for each character separately. In my opinion, its redundant.

Agreed. Please and thank you, AN.

Yet -another- mounts thread. Mounts cause all kinds of problems:

People stay on them and block NPC’s, Quest givers, trading post areas, bank areas, merchants, etc. Some do it to be jerks, others because they don’t have any concept of anyone else but themselves and are too lazy to dismount out of respect for other players.

Additionally, mounts clutter up the field of vision, especially in cities, towns, etc. This can cause problems for players who use lower end systems not to mention simply being an eye sore.

Mounts are NOT needed in this game. The individual zones are not that big to run through and there are MANY way points scattered across each.

Mounts are NOT an integral part of GW lore.

This topic has been done to death. Scroll down and see the “mounts” merged threads.

Lutharr.1035:

nothing wrong with the difficulty. L2p issues

Gee that was ever so helpful, thanks. Gotta love it when the game gods shower you with their oh-so-perfectness.

I report every bot I see and every gold spammer as well. I will continue to do so without fail for as long as I play the game. They ruin every game they touch.

I know y’all have a lot more important things on your plate atm but at some point in the future, I would love to be able to mouse over all the pets I’ve charmed and see their stats without having to equip them and call them. It would make it much easier to decide what pet I need for any particular type of area, quest or what have you.

Thanks in advance.

Redscope.6215:

@Himei Forceful Shot is the underwater burst skill for the speargun.

Thanks for keeping the community informed Jon. I don’t play a ranger but I am interested to see what changes. They’re currently one of the least build-differentiated classes in the game.

Now lets wait for the thief crying to bleed into this post since its about buffing a class that isn’t the thief.

I play a thief and you won’t hear it from me. Of course, I don’t PvP and that’s where the majority of the crying happens between all classes.

Emerge.9640:

It’s not a nerf, it’s actually a buff. Inc QQs about the new signet used in conjunction with other builds. Mark my words.

Of this I have little doubt. I wouldn’t take this on a bet.

flowcyto.5671:

AS nerf was fine, OP; ur hatred is misguided. This wasn’t a re-do of the PW nerf.

Looking for where I said this was a “re-do of the PW nerf”. Nope, never said it. The word “hatred” is a tad overly dramatic don’t you think? :P As for my frustration with the PW nerf, it is well deserved and it’s obvious I don’t stand alone. They nerfed the wrong thing. Period.

Sylosi.6503:

Okamakiri.8746
Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

Go try Rift, it is game for Pvers, unless they’ve magically woken up, when I played, PvE Raid weapons were far superior to the best you could get in PvP, plus for any class that didn’t get hit much (e.g – rogue playing a marksman) or if you had pocket healer, then also 2-4 bits of PvE raid armour were far superior.

Hence their PvP has bascially died on its kitten (as has the game in general)

As for whining, Pvers just whine about slighlty different things, as we are on Rift some of the many things Pvers endlesly whined about:

That’s it? That’s the “list”? One MMO? And you are obviously complaining about it because it’s not allegedly catering to PvP! ROFL!

Judas.5432:

Yeah…..it’s really just not so bad.

You are seriously overreacting and the class is just as viable as it was 2 days ago in both PvE and PvP (it could even be argued that they even strengthened it for PvP so long as you aren’t using a backstab build and expecting to just kill your opponent instantly).

Thief has definitely been at the wrong end of the nerf stick but it’s still a very strong class. I don’t really see what your issue is, honestly, aside from some general animosity.

I very much admit to being frustrated as all heck. It started when they nerfed PW and I found myself kittened in PvE fights I once was able to handle. (LOL, OMG…I’m actually just typing out the word “kitten” now instead of letting the swearing filter do it for me! Too funny!) I don’t know if I would call it “animosity” exactly because that’s a whole other set of connotations. I am no where near the god-like players that seem to inhabit these forums that claim they all breezed through PvE and story lines etc at 3 levels BELOW the mobs and never lost, blah blah blah and my BS meter is going off on occasion. Having gone from being a fairly successful rogue type class player for 15 years or so in both PvE and PvP , I find it dismaying that suddenly in this game I have to be a math major and scrutinize every number and nuance in order to hold my own. That sounds like work, nor play. I crunched numbers for a living. The last thing I want to do is have to do so in a game. It’s even more frustrating when all anyone is really concerned about is PvP and WvW as though PvE’rs simply don’t exist and/or don’t matter.

bwillb.2165:

mrsrachelm.7618:

Okamakiri.8746:

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

I would really like to hear that list of MMO’s as well. All the major and successful MMO’s have always catered to the PvP crowd when it comes to the near constant nerf bat and tweaks. If there are any successful MMO’s out there that don’t do that…I would be very interested in hearing what they are and if they are still online. I might have to go check them out if I haven’t already. The ONLY current game I am aware of which has remained -somewhat- balanced between the needs of PvP’rs and PvE’rs is Rift.

Everquest 2, maybe. I haven’t played it in a long time but when I did it didn’t even have PvP.

I would think it goes without saying that in order to actually answer with that list of MMO’s they would actually have to have PvP and PvE in order to cater to one -over- the other.

Okamakiri.8746:

While the change to Assassination Signet was actually a good one with respect to other thief specs and weapons, the general trend of “balancing” due to PVP has been a very poor one, and PVE has definitely been suffering for it. PW nerf is a perfect example of that. Everyone knew the real culprit behind PW nerf cries as well as a number of other class builds is Quickness, but instead of nerfing that broken stat they nerfed a perfectly balanced weapon ability. PW + quickness in PVP is still almost as effective as it was, while PW in PVE without quickness is mediocre at best.

Very very true and that was a bread-n-butter part of my PvE build originally. I threw my hands up in disgust when they fixed the wrong thing because I accepted that quickness had to be tweaked and figured it would be. I, like most thief players, knew quickness needed to be balanced out and were shocked to our core when we saw what they did instead. It kittened PvE builds which used it as the main part of their build and STILL didn’t make the non-thief PvP QQ’rs happy. I kind of expected they would have fixed their “fix” by now but I can just imagine the outcry from the non-thief PvP’rs if they did.

Okamakiri.8746:

Sylosi.6503:

Lol, in most MMORPGs, when someone who does PvP complains about balance, the response they often get is “this is a PvE game, go play LoL”

Really? What are these “most MMORPGs” where that is the case? I’ve been dying to find an MMO that isn’t ruined by the whiniest demographic of gamers, i.e. PVPers. While I do enjoy occasional PVP, I have always said that tailoring to that demographic is spelling doom to your MMO. They generally carry no loyalty to any brand, demand minimal character investment requirement, scream the loudest over every little thing, and are the first to move on to the next new “shiny” (i.e. their next MMO victim), leaving behind a broken game for PVErs.

I would really like to hear that list of MMO’s as well. All the major and successful MMO’s have always catered to the PvP crowd when it comes to the near constant nerf bat and tweaks. If there are any successful MMO’s out there that don’t do that…I would be very interested in hearing what they are and if they are still online. I might have to go check them out if I haven’t already. The ONLY current game I am aware of which has remained -somewhat- balanced between the needs of PvP’rs and PvE’rs is Rift.

bwillb.2165:

Have you “PvP changes break PvE”-guys have ever considered that if a specific skill, trait or a combination of them is so strong that it outshines all other options of the profession or even all profession and thus is nerfed may have been too strong in PvE, too?

Considered, and debunked. By the time the one-hit wonder burst builds are ready to go again, mobs have already respawned twice. Plus in the upper levels it’s pretty rare to be able to pull just 1 mob.

This is very true. Even at mid-to-high levels you (general term use) can see that starting to happen and it quickly devolves into an endurance fight which, given the more mob-rich areas, is almost a given to lose if you don’t run and pray you out run the mobs and don’t aggro any more.

By the time you clear one area in front of you in order to move forward the area directly behind you has started to respawn and aggro and you start all over again and have a devil of a time progressing forward in closed in areas like caves, tunnels or small mob-rich quest areas which you MUST complete in order to finish your quest.

Unless you’re the type to run around with at least one or more play partners most of the time, the above scenario becomes more and more common. Due to my schedule I solo most of the time as do many PvE players who group up sporadically but don’t necessarily want to HAVE to do so for every little thing they do in game.

Rizzy.8293:

Could be worst, You could have been a ranger, now theres a sad lot
I was one, I unshelved my thief after the disastrous 4ms nerf

I have a ranger as my main now. I really enjoy the class. Have played that one along with rogue types since I started MMO gaming. Yeah, the "
4ms" nerf with a decimal error, LOL. I still find my ranger enjoyable but then I don’t PvP in this game and haven’t PvP’d since my time in WoW and that “4ms” nerf would make PvP sooooo bad.

I suspect this is best discussed on the ranger forum rather than here, though.

bwillb.2165:

While I agree with you that PvE often gets kittened over for PvP balance (that’s part of why I left WoW, actually), this is really an odd time to bring it up. The latest wave of thief changes was actually a buff on the PvE front where a single 150% backstab isn’t going to kill most mobs but you can easily get 5 heartseekers in while a boss is under 25%.

That’s one of the reasons I left WoW, as well. That and the nearly myopic content releases focused on raiding almost exclusively. They made content so difficult you couldn’t even go after the “normal” mobs in the new expansion zones without a whole group and all it was about was farm farm farm. That and PvP was all they cared about so they lost me as a customer after having been there several years. I went to Rift and never looked back.

I understand the current nerf isn’t horrid but it definitely makes it harder for specific play styles who concentrate on that initial burst damage. I’ve played this type of class since EQ1 in PvE and PvP (even though PvP is not really my cup of tea) quite successfully until this game. I’ve studied builds, weapon combos etc so I’m not uniformed. However, with every nerf to make PvP’rs happy, they screw with PvE play styles to the point where everyone will basically be forced into one or two builds just to survive and level. The same will happen in PvP as well. In essence, we lose all that ability to individualize our play style which was one of the big selling points of the game.

I just find it frustrating and sad because this is usually my favorite class to play.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and opinions will vary. I’m not the only PvE’r who has remarked that PvP and PvE elements should be kept distinct from each other so that changes to things for PvP’rs (aka “balance” LOL!) doesn’t effect PvE play. Since, as one comment noted, they balance things around PvP, they should keep those “tweaks” related to PvP and not also have them effecting PvE players. That is all.

As far as “content” releases, this is not that discussion. Feel free to start one if you wish.

Thank you thank you thank you!

To answer your question, the current topic on many threads is the newest nerf to his the thief class and my response on those similar threads will also be similar because it’s all the same topic more or less. If you’ve been reading those various threads then it has already been explained n at least one or two of them how PvE play is effected by these nerfs in general and the latest one specifically so I figure it doesn’t need to be said yet again (and it seems you take personal exception to the fact that I may have repeated myself in some fashion on threads all dealing with this topic so why would I stress you further by repeating yet again). You -do- know, I hope, that a backstab build on a thief is not exactly unheard of…considering the type of class it is regardless of if it is used “every time” or not.

The fact that PvE players can’t be heard over the din and sheer number of PvP threads, comments, topics, and discussions is a problem, imo. If it’s not for you then this thread isn’t likely to be of much interest.