Guild Wars 2

Chrispy.5641:

HOLY KITTEN BATMAN! SOMEONE ACTUALLY POSTED A GUIDE!!!!

I certainly thought that most players will sooner or later find out how to deal with a longbow ranger, but some insisted that us rangers provide actual counter play. I was also interested what it really takes to deal 13+ k damage with a single rapid fire – although I already had a sneaking suspicion. And maybe – just maybe – some of them will realize now what investments are necessary to down someone with a single RF.

Anyone is welcome to post tips and tricks in case some players don’t have the time to experiment or just don’t know how to adjust their build.

cheers

Chapter 5: Dos and don’ts (tl;dr)

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By now you should have an understanding of what is required to deal such an awesome damage from 1500 range, and how you can avoid or mitigate it.

As a summary here are the Dos and Don’t, or PLEASE STOPQQ:

Dos:
- *P*ay attention to your surroundings
- *L*ook at ways to avoid incoming damage
- *E*verything you can to reduce the gap between you and the ranger, or
- *A*djust your position to remove the positional advantage the ranger has
- *S*top them from attacking by applying pressure with damage or cc
- *E*xcercise measures to force defensive options or weaponswap

Don’ts:
- *S*tand there and take it in the face
- *T*ake everything others write on the forums for facts, test them
- *O*verexaggerate the experience you’ve had with/against lognbow rangers
- *P*ropose changes until you read the above and understand how longbow works with and without significant investment
- *Q*uarrel with experienced rangers that try to give you advice
- *Q*uench your thirst for revenge by asking for nerfs until you understood and tried the above

Other conditions: Confusion can be a way to deal great damage to the ranger due to rapid fire hitting a lot of times. Weakenss can be used to reduce incoming damage. Blind can be used to help avoid hits. Blinds are best used on specific hits, but these hits can be forced. If you try to get close to the ranger he is forced to either swap weapons to create a gap, use a utility such as lightning reflexes (not there to create range but can be used like that) or use longbow skills such as point blank shot and hunter’s shot. This means that blinds are best applied when approaching the ranger, after they’ve used rapid fire.

Boons: Aegis, stability and protection are great ways to mitigate damage from longbow. Some rangers will take moment of clarity which adds 50% damage to an attack after an interrupt. This means when you are knocked down with point blank shot, chances are you will get hit by a pretty big long range shot. With stability, you will strip a ranger from one of its tools to defend itself, and one of the tools to deal high damage to you. With protection you can reduce the incoming damage by 33%, which is again a huge blow to a ranger’s offense. Aegis, while not a great defense against rapid fire will strip a 100% critical hit and 5 stacks of vulnerability from the ranger if up at the beginning of the fight. Beginner rangers might even blow their point blank shot on a character with Aegis up charging them.

Other, profession specific options: Even though rapid fire tracks stealthing targets, it is very hard to hit anyone with it without a target. This means approaching a ranger in stealth is a big disadvantage for the ranger, especially when you consider that 2 of the defensive options a longbow provides also need to hit their target, so they need a target to begin with. Projectile destruction and reflection is another option that some professions have acces to, that can be used to greatly reduce incoming damage. Traits/utilities that do not allow condition application, or passive condition removal can reduce longbow damage significantly as they won’t have a 15%-30% damge increase as vulnerability is not applied. There are invlunerabilities, crit immunity, and probably even other options to mitigate longbow damage available to professions.

Other options available to everyone:
Hits: Some of the ranger defense and offense relies on hits such as opening strike (a crit and 5 stacks of vulnerability), hunter’s shot (stealth), point blank shot (knockback/interrupt), sigil of strength (might on crit). These can be avoided by dodging, evading, blinding, blocking (with skills, players, summons) or making sure there is an obstacle in between the ranger and the target. This again is a huge blow against ranger offense and defense.

Dodging: The most recommended tool by rangers for players struggling against longbow. If you look at the way rapid fire works, it applies vulnerability with each hit. This means that it will hit harder at the end of the channel. So even if you can’t read the mind of a ranger, dodging when you notice rapid fire will probably negate the more/most damaging part of rapid fire. You can also dodge forward which allows you to dodge while you approac the ranger. Not only will you avoid damage, but chances are you will also avoid being hit by hunter’s shot or point blank shot, or maybe even some other trick a ranger might have up their sleeves. Dodging is a big help to all players against longbow rangers, and cannot be over emphasised.

Positional advantage: This is by far the best tool a longbow ranger has available, and you should work on removing it from him/her if you want to defeat them. Just by facing them you can strip the option from them to increase their damage by 10-20% if they spent 5 points in skirmishing.

Chapter 4: I houp U liek pphain (how to hurt LB rangers)

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So how to actually deal with longbow rangers?

From the above it seems that rangers have limited defensive options against melee opponents outside of sword and dodges as they have a low armor although in pvp with a berserker amulet and 2 points in Nature magic they can reach a health pool of 19500 health. However without protection they will take direct damage like the light golem that we tested on. Also notice that rangers will have a low number of on demand condition removal skills, and even those are not without their flaws.

Direct damage: With rangers being vulnerable to damage they will be forced to use their defensive options, and as most of their options are used for dealing high damage, you will be able to deal high damage to them with relative ease should they lose their optins and positional advantage.

Condition damage: Rangers that invest a lot in dealing high damage have fairly poor ways of dealing with conditions. With QZ and SotW taken rangers have access to healing spring and Signet of Renewal to rely on for cleansing with brown bear also being an option. Signet of Renewal is on a fairly high cooldown 60 seconds and requires a pet that is in 600 range and is alive. If these two conditions are not met, the skill is used, goes on cooldown and it won’t clear any conditions for 60 seconds. It removes 1 condition every 10 seconds but can be overloaded fairly easily. Healing spring is on of the best heals in game. It removes all conditions on activation and 1 per pulse afterwards, it is a 0.5 second cast, adds a water field to play with and is a burst heal. The 3rd option is with brown bear, which needs to be in range and alive as well to remove 2 conditions on a 25 seconds cooldown.

Hard CC: Although with SotW and RaO rangers can have high duration stability, stability can be removed or turned into a condition. After that, with little to no stunbreaks available to the ranger it can easily be controlled with stuns/dazes/fears/knockbacks/pulls/kncokdowns. Since it is vulnerable to both direct and condition damage, this allows for players to deal their damage easier to the ranger. It also stops the ranger from attacking, and since most longbow skills are channeled skills, the damage can be shut down with more frequent shorter term interrupts, and can be used to apply on interrupt effects.

Soft CC: Given the low amount of condition cleanse options rangers can be overloaded with movement impairing conditions (cripple, chill, immobilize), and since a lot of the ranger defenses come through dodging (high endurance regen, vigor, on dodge protection, the dodge itself) most of these can be removed by immobilize. Weapon skills that move the ranger are also affected by these conditions (i.e. it will move a shorter distance) the ranger receives a huge blow to its defenses when it cannot move at a normal or faster pace, although a ranger with sword/dagger will still be able to evade when cc-d. It will also become much more vulnerable to summoned creatures such as minions, illisions, pets, as they will have an easier time hitting the ranger.

Chapter 3: Sooo… (outside rapid fire)

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Cannot has:
With 3 traits out of 7 spent here are your defensive options from traits:
- 6/6/1/1/0 – + 25% endurance regeneration 5.25 seconds of regeneration when below 75% health (30 seconds internal cooldown(ICD))
- 6/5/3/0/0 – - 5% crit damage, – 50 precision, + 25% endurance regen, 2s protection after dodge in combat only (this actually was 2 seconds with the dodge included in the past), and either Shared anguish (first incoming stun/daze/fear is transferred to pet, ICD) or Vigorous renewal (gain 5 seconds of Vigor (+ 100% endurance regen) when using a healing skill)
- 6/6/0/2/0 – + 5.5 seconds of regeneration when below 75% health and Nature’s protection (5.5 secs of protections when you receive a hit dealing more damage then 10% of max health) or Nature’s bounty (regenerations you apply last 33% longer)
- 6/6/0/0/2 – Your defensive options here are related to pet heals only basically, although you do receive 100 of healing power from the traitline too.
- Primal reflexes is a minor trait in the skirmishing line which grants endurance when you are hit by a critical hit.
This sounds frightening when you consider that there are others out there that can deal high condition damage from 1000+ range, high direct damage from 1000+ range, or close 1500 range with relative ease.

Let’s look at utilities and heals:
Since we spent 3 utilities on being awesome we have 1 heal and 1 utility we can choose.

Heals:
Troll unguent heals 850 health per second for 10 seconds, cannot be removed has a 1 second cast time and a 25 second cooldown.
Have heal as one heals for 6520 health has a 1.25 seconds cast time and a cooldown of 20 seconds.
Healing spring heals for 4920 health, removes conditions when used and 1 condition every puls till it lasts and grants regeneration, is a 0.25 second cast time and has a cooldown of 30 seconds.
Water spirit, when summoned (1.5 seconds cast) grants a 35% chance to heal you for 814 but has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds and can be killed. On activation (1 second cast) it heals you for 3900 +1930.

Utilities:
Signet of stone 6 seconds of invulnerability (80 second cooldown). It is instant cast, so you can use it while stunned/dazed/feared, but is not a stun break.
Signet of Renewal removes 1 condition every 10 seconds and on activation transfers all conditions to the pet. It is a stun break, activation is instant, cooldown is 60 seconds. Lightning reflexes is an evade backwards that also deals damage for 575 grants 10 seconds of vigor, cures immobilize and breaks stuns. It is instant and has a cooldown of 40 seconds.
Protect me is a shout that transfers all incoming direct damage to the pet for 6 seconds. It is instant cast, is a stun break and has a 60 second cooldown, and your pet will not attack whil it lasts.
Spirit of stone when summoned grants you 35% chance to apply 3 seconds of protection when you get hit but this effect has a 10 second internal cooldown, and the spirit can be destroyed.

Weapons:
Longbow With hunter’s shot grants you stealth for 3 seconds, but you need to hit your target with this. It has a base cooldown of 12 seconds and deals damage that is less than half of a long range shot. It is the only longbow skill that is instant cast. All others have a cast time.
Point blank shot is a knockback that deals damage equal to a mid range long range shot (500-1000 range) and has a base cooldown of 15 seconds.
Greatsword has on of the best blocks in game, it lasts 3 seconds, counter attacks when hit in melee, and doesn’t break when attacked from range. It has a cooldown of 15 seconds. Swoop is a leap attack (actually two leaps) which has a range of 1100, and the second leap (the attack part) now is an evade for 0.5 seconds since the september feature patch.
Sword has evades built into the number 2 and 3 skills on it, that are low cooldowns, and also are mobility skills that allow the ranger to move about the battleground while evading.
Dagger has an evade but the movement on it is not as good as on sword.
Axe off-hand has a projectile reflect on skill 5 which also grants retailiation, and ot has a pull and good damage on skill 4.
*Warhorn*’s only defense is it granting swiftness to nearby allies, so the ranger has more movement speed.

Pets:
In the form of crowd control skills (cripple, immobilize, chill, fear, knockdown, daze), boons (protection), other conditions (weakness, blind) and heals (heals skills, regeneration, condition removal) pets also provide a wide selection of defensive skills to the ranger, although these are not as easily utilized as traits and utilities.

With all that in mind it is important to note, that every investment into defense is made at the cost of giving up a considerable amount of damage.

What happened so far:
We have spend 12 out of 14 points in marksmanship and skirmishing traitlines and selected 4 out of the available 7 traits 2 out of 3 utility skills and our elite all dedicated to being awesome. What happened specifically? We had stats of around 2158 power, 2051 precision, 852 Ferocity, 65% critical hit chance. We then activated our elite (1 second cast time), activated our pet F2 (3 secon cast, but can be pre cast), activated SotW (1 second cast), activated QZ (instant) and pressed 2 on our keyboard. We received 5 stacks of might from our pet (+ 175 power), were at max endurance (+ 10% damage), behind the target (+ 10% damage), criticcally hit with our first hit and applied 5 stacks of vulnerability, applied another 10 stacks of vulnerability (+ 5% damage after first hit, and gradually incrasing as the channel goes up to + 15% damage), had a pet out which gave us another 7% damage, we received fury from the elite (+ 20% chance to critically hit) and ended our rapid fire with 7 might stacks on us. This translated to damage between 13k and 16k in about 1 second. Awesome! Actually I had to change the sigils from air and fire to accuracy and strenght to get more consistent damage, and also for the golem to stay alive for the whole channel, as with air and fire it died too quickly. Just for a control result I fired some rapid fires with my 2 utility skills and my elite and pet skills on cooldown to see the results. It is fair to say that rapid fire without using any cooldowns can hit for 7500-10000 damage from a range of 1500 (from behind, at max endurance, with full endurance, with sigils of accuracy and strength, runes of the ranger a pet out and with significant investment in traits).

After rapid fire:
With the above setup, you will be at 2403 power, 85% crit chance and your target will have 15% stacks of vulnerability on them, you will be behind them and at max endurance. This will result in an amazing long range shot that will deal considerably higher damage then 2000 on an already almost downed player. In case quickness is still up this is bad news for anyone, as it should be fairly easy to finish any player that survives the rapid fire damage with just autoattacking.

So how do you deal with all this? Let’s look at what rangers cannot have if they are this awesome.

Can has:
In addition to the above the ranger has the following options to enhance its damage or defences.
Damage options:
- Runes/sigils/amulets: In order to deal consistent high damage the ranger will need an amulet (in pvp) or armor+trinkets (in wvw) that grants power and precision. Most rangers will go with Berserker stats as it also grants a bonus to critical damage, which is a great part of the longbow damage. Without critical damage a longbow will deal damage that is far less then people are being hit for if you believe what you read on the forums.

Test

Try this in pvp, equip a soldiers amulet and spend 6/0/x/x/x trait points. Attack the medium armor golem to trigger your first guaranteed crit and 5 stacks of vulnerability from the minor marksmanship traits Precise strike and Opneing strike and attack the ligh armor golem. At a power of ca 2100 you should see long range shots hit for ca 800 and rapid fire hit for ca 3500-4000 only on a low armor opponent. Now lets do that with knight gear (toughness/precision/power) and spend 4 points in the skirmishing trait line. This should give you ca 1900 power and around 44% critical hit chance + 20% critical damage (above the baseline + 50%) without any sigils or runes that grant power/precision/ferocity. You should see hits as high as ca 1000 in case of critical hits from long range shot, and rapid fire hitting for ca 4000 damage on a low armor target. This, is nowehere near the damage people claim to be hit for on the forums. The reason is, that in order to deal higher damage with rapid fire you need other factors. Now lets put another 2 trait points in skirmishing and equip a berserker amulat (power/precision/ferocity). You should be at 2158 power 49% crit chance and + 100% (i.e. 200%) critical damage and will now see ca 1500 on long range shot crits, and with half your hits criting ca 6000 damage on rapid fire from the front on a low armor opponent. This is the damage you will be hit for by a longbow ranger with 12 trait points spent in lines aimed at dealing high damage without other factors. Which brings us to runes and sigils. Let us equip runes of the ranger and fire and air sigils in our longbow. This should give you 2158 power, 58% crit chance and 207% critical damage. The results should be long range shot hitting for around 1800 on crits and rapid fire hitting for around 6000-7000 damage on a low armor target. Soooo…. how are people being hit for 12k+ damage from rapid fire? How are they downed in seconds?
- Other traits, utilities, pets, conditions, boons: This is where the plot thickens, try hitting your first strike on the light armor golem first. This will grant you a guaranteed crit which will be able to trigger your air and fire sigils further increasing the damage, and also add 5 stacks of vulnerability granting another 5% of damage incease (before critical damage is factored in). You might see damage from rapid fire go as high as 7000 if it is hit after the opening strike from a long range shot and you will see 2000 damage coming from critical hits on long range shots. This is (IMO) high single target sustained damage! Mind you this is what the developers were aiming at, as discussed in one of the Ready up episodes (i.e. Ranger being the best ranged single target dps profession followed by Mesmer). It just isn’t the 12000 damage some people are being hit for however. Now try this. Equip Signet of the Wild (SotW), Quickeing Zephyr (QZ), Rampage as One (Rampage as One), select the Jungle stalker pet, select Steady focus, Eagle Eye, Reat the Wind and Quick Draw for traits, sigil of accuracy and sigil of strength and go near the warrior npc in the Heart of the Mists. You should be out of 900 range, on a “perch” as some like to call it, and behind the light armor golem. Activate RaO, activet F2 on your pet, activate SotW, activate QZ target the light golem and press 2. You should now hit for 14000 on a single rapid fire. This is awesome!!!!

Chapter 2: Y U so stronk rhepid fhaier? (how it happens)

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With that out of the way let us look at what longbow ranger needs, and what it can/can’t have.

Needs:
It is highly recommended to spend 6 points in the Marksmanship line to deal high consistent single target damage at high range.
Longbow in and of itself is not what some players make it look. In fact lonbgow projectile speed, even though it was increased in the last year or so, is slow enough for players that are at a range of 900+ avoid being hit (“sidestepping”) easily. In order to achieve consistent hits with a longbow a ranger will need the recently introduced Read the wind trait, which increases projectile speed to a level where this is almost impossible to do. This is part of the complaints that are aimed at rangers/LB rangers in general, because it makes it seem as though hits from a longbow are unavoidable.
For a ranger to hit others consistently at 1500 range consistently it will need (in addition to Read the wind) the trait Eagle eye. This will allow the ranger to hit targets at 1200+ range, as the longbow without this trait has an effective range of up to 1200. After all this the ranger still needs something to be effective which is maybe even more important than all of the above, which is a positional advantage. Specifically, to be effective the ranger needs to be out of range of attacks. As mentioned above rangers are sacrificing defensive options to be able to deal high damage. The more defences they forfeit, the more important the positional advantage is for them to stay alive.
Aside all these a ranger will also need another weapon set to be dedicated to defensive options. This will most probably be either the Greatsword or Sword combined with an offhand weapon of choice i.e. Warhorn, Dagger, Axe.
In everything other than 1v1s (one player against one player) a ranger will also need the team to stay alive. Since the more players are involved in the fight, the more a ranger is in danger of being defeated. This comes from the fact that lonbgbow is mainly a single target weapon, and a longbow ranger dealing high damage simply doesn’t have the defensive options to stay alive/in fight for a longer period of time once the other team realizes the threat it is and decides to mitigate that threat.
With the tests coming up you will see that even with those investments ranger is nowhere near the threat others make it look like. It needs a very heavy investment in traits and utilities.

Chapter 1: Wut? (terms)

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First off we need to clarify some terminology, because some of it is used inaccurately:
- L2P (Learn to play) – This coming from rangers basically means looking at the build a ranger might be using, as this would reveal the weaknesses of someone who’s rapid fire can down a player in 2 seconds. Learning to play a longbow rangers is basically having to make choices on survival options versus damage output. If someone sacrifices too much defensive options – while they will be able to deal devastating damage with rapid fire – they will be very vulnerable to icoming attacks.
- Rapid fire – Most players don’t realize but in fact they refer to a ranger who has spent 6 points in a trait line, 2/3 master traits are fixed, and probably spent another 6 in another trait line and used 2 utilities and an elite only to enhance its damage output. This is very important as it should now be clear how much someone needs to sacrifice to deal the amount of damage that some of the player base is suggesting on the forums.
- Counter/hard counter – This would be a strategy/build that it is very effective against a longbow ranger, maybe even be so effective that a longbow ranger will stand no chance against that build/strategy. This guide will not include any counter/hard counter, but it will list some tools/practices that professions have access to, and list others which everyone regardless of their build can use to stand a chance against a longbow ranger. I will not tell you what build/profession to use, its up to you.
- Mitigation – Basically this means to lessen the effect of something, in this case damage taken from a longbow ranger.

Wellcome to nagy.m.bear’s wall of text on fighting Longbow rangers

This guide is aimed at (possibly entry level) players struggling against rapid fire/longbow rangers. There is a dos and don’ts version for those who can’t/don’t want to take the time to understand how a longbow ranger works.
Chapter 1: Wut?
Chapter 2: Y U so stronk rhepid fhaier?
Chapter 3: Sooo…
Chapter 4: I houp U liek pphain
Chapter 5: Dos and don’ts

I dunno how to feel about this, maybe I didn’t express myself properly. Traps + bow aren’t necessarily a bad idea. In fact I remember seeing someone making it work (not sure who it was though). However, playing longbow and shortbow with no access to running speed increase screws you over in wvw. If you run in a team and have swiftness, you will be good with that build probably, although players are starting to adept to LB rangers already and you will have 1200 range only and slower arrow speeds. I urge you to have a go with longbow/shortbow in wvw to get a feeling of what it means to run a dual bow build in this game. If you have some gold you should be able to get full zerker gear (only exotic) and get an understanding of how your build will play. A lot of the melee classes are used to closing the gap, so it will be an intense experience. But try it out, see if it is something you like.

Sword + warhorn/dagger > Greatsword

I think that on a dual bow ranger with 3 traps you will lack mobility. If you want to run in a zerg the heal on kill and might on kill effects could be useful, but if you plan to roam or run in a small group I think you will be better off with some heals/might before you kill an opponent. With the trap you will get 3 seconds of switfness basic as it is not really the superspeed it includes in the description. I would feel very vulerable. You also don’t have any source of stability, I think devourers are just plain bad, and you have no condition cleanse at all. I think survivability in wvw is a huge thing for a dual bow ranger. On a full on rampager gear you will basically be the “resbot” no commander will want in their group. In an organized group play if a commander would be willing to build team tactics around your traps this could be a thing, but I really don’t see this happening. Consider swapping your heal for healing spring. Its quicker to cast, its a water field, and it removes conditions. Also consider swapping one of the traps for a stunbreak i.e. signet of renewal or lightning reflexes.

I know this might sound depressing, but if you put in the resources to gear yourself in full ascended rampager gear and then run no stun break/stability/condi cleanse you will just frustrate yourself.

Good music, good gampelay, awesome video! Did you consider the king/queen of the hill ranger thread already? More people should learn your craft!

Edit: How is the damage on the “crippling strike” on dodge from the runes?

Hope you guys had fun, would be cool to see the challanger builds in the post as well. And I hate to harp on it, but a link in the original post to the current ruling king’s post would be nice.

Eurantien.4632:

I haven’t decided how I feel about the not allowed to change build rules. Ideally I would honor and go power vs power. But a good condi build should beat a power build. However, out of ranger spirit I am willing to suffer that defeat and dethrone the king with 6/6/2 zerker. When I lose and a new king has been made I will be happy to dethrone that king as well with a condi build. That being said, I don’t think I really wish to be king… I just started a term of school and am preparing for ToG and WTS so I wouldn’t have too much time for duels. Just showing some transparency on my thoughts. If the community wishes, I will happily dethrone kings, but I don’t think I can handle the responsibility of the crown atm.

My idea behind the rule was to give more room for challangers to counter the build of the king, so they don’t end up ruling forever.

Really? Unless you are running shared anguish I don’t see it being very useful. Who in their right mind would waste hard cc on your pet?

Prysin.8542:

5 sec stability as base (scales to player boon duration)
actiaves in AOE on pet swap
25-30 sec ICD
affects up to 5 players + the pet
AOE size 360-480
DONE
Perfect

Then next up: Make Invigorating Bond (BM GM) scale better with player healing power to make it more useful, but ALSO to work on the ranger and pet themselves. Increase ICD to 25 sec
DONE
Perfect

Make Rampage As One have its cooldown affected by Speed Training (Note that Rampage as One is classified as a “pet” type skill, and should therefore be affected by Speed Training, making it possible to reduce its CD by 10%, which is more then enough for such a strong elite)
DONE
Perfect

These 3 changes and rangers, outside power builds, would be in a seriously good place, support and function vise.

I think on demand aoe stability for 5 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown is too strong. Make it 2seconds, its gonna be a reactive pet swap anyways to save some butts.

Oh kitten, kitten excalated quickly

jebro.6370:

Welcome as ever my friend and thanks to Brix!

Sooo…. any thoughts of what LB rangers mean to PvP currently/in the future?

Hey Jebro,

Looks like a risky build with no condition removal. Get hit by an immob, cripple or chill and you are dead. Since you traited into having protection and vigor, I’d swap signet of stone for renewal. Its a stunbreak and a condiremoval as well. I also became a fan of sword warhorn over greatsword, but I’m more of a wvw guy, so there’s that.

I would be interested in your oppinion on longbow rangers in more detail though given the massive amount of hate/complaints regarding rapid fire. Being a shoutcaster (hope I got it right), what are your experiences looking at pvp tournaments (since that will be the basis of balancing. Do you see longbow ranger chaning pvp? If yes is it for better or worse?

T raw.4658:

That much damage at that speed and at that range is broken.

No one has a problem with rangers doing 13k damage in 1-2 seconds, but doing that much damage from 1.5k plus range is bad for the game.

I’m amused by the rangers who are defending this tooth and nail though. I’ll be even more amused when the “adjustment” comes

<Edit>

Some videos showcasing the problem.

Rangers defending this tooth and nail? I think it is you who is desperate here. Keep repeating your mantra like a kittening slogen so much you believe it too. Did you think about what circumstances were actually required to make those videos? Do you think these are normal situations? If you are so sure about the adjustments coming to RF, why waste your time trying to convince people about it being broken? The only reason I can think of is you being a hater and just trying to wish bad things for rangers because of some silly videos on youtube. Please stop trying to act like you’re the champion of people defending their lives, it is getting pathetic.

Pets just got some nice buffs in terms of master tier traits not having a pet family requirement anymore. I think its a huge thing, and we didn’t get most out of our pet with these changes yet. I would rather see all pets be as useful as wolf, jaguar, owl, raven, river drake before they add new stuff. Some are already pretty good, but porcines, ursines, moas, devourers are soooo underused (not without a reason mind you).

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Was RF OP before patch? I am really curious. Because I don’t think it was. It had the same cooldown, could deal the same amount of damage from the same range. Do you know what it was? A waste of time. It was a dps loss compared to autoattack, that’s what it was. The traitline most ranger trait into when using LB screams of burst, but ranger had none aside from maul. LB RF fits the traitline, it fits the profession and it fits Anets (latest) vision of the ranger. It should be the best ranged single target dps class, and it seems it is. What it doesn’t fit is people in the current pvp meta. I fought against LB ranger in pvp who actually took part in a 3v3 instead of sitting on a ledge. He wasn’t useless, but he could be dealt with. So no, RF is not just AFK brainded gameplay. People spamming it make it seem so. Also if you really think LB zerker ranger is afk brainded play, then go ahead and play it in a pvp tournament. I know its beyond your level because it doesn’t require skill, but please, indulge me and try it out in a competitive match where people are organized, and know what they are doing. Seriously, try it. If it really is that powerful, it will have its 15 mintues of fame even if you shout and cry all day. I don’t think it will however.

I’d like to very gently correct the viewpoint that all zerker lb rangers are braindead and direct attention to zerker lb ranger allows braindead play when it should not.

This is not an insult to a class, this is an examination of the skill floor of said class.

since skill floors being too low are abhorrent and shocking and make people cry.

With all due respect I disagree. Zerker lb ranger allows players to deal high damage easily in what some consider braindead play. It is no more brainded then hambow is/was, spirit build was. They were braindead because you were having too much damage that you could apply for someone who was hard to kill. LB ranger on the other hand is easy to kill as it is very, very squishy. It is weak against direct damage, and weak against conditions. You are not safe at all, and thus IMO it is not braindead gameplay. You have to get to a place that is hard to reach in pvp. And I think some classes are great to catch you there. I tried playing zerker LB before RTW even, and people could get me on high ledges as well. Mobile classes like thieves or warriors could reach me pretty quickly, and shatter mesmers could deal damage to me. The only thing it didn’t have was burst, and that is why it wasn’t effective at all. Anyone could just sit on point and sidestep arrows like it was nothing. Is it easier to deal damage with longbow now? Yes. It is not baseline though, as it costs a lot for a ranger to be able to deal that amount of damage. And braindead afk players are easily punished for that.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

1) Dodge
2) Dive
3) Dip
4) Duck
5) Dodge

See, I can do it too, though this fix will only apply to competent players. GlassBow still isn’t top tier viable and still has a hard matchup against most meta builds and compositions, and the complaining is only indicative that the game has now been successfully balanced for skill (where as previously there were no complaints because you could beat GlassBow one handed and the effects of the build were entirely negligible unless you were afk).

+1

I have a random Survival+BM build I came up with in less than a minute and even that one beats Glassbows

You can beat any player. That does not prove if that players build is OP or not. I beat power longbow all the time, but I also get downed with one Rapid Fire if im out of dodges while fighting another player.

Full range pew pew, rinse repeat.

If you support this /afk braindead balance GW2 is supporting, then maybe you should try using valid arguments.

Was RF OP before patch? I am really curious. Because I don’t think it was. It had the same cooldown, could deal the same amount of damage from the same range. Do you know what it was? A waste of time. It was a dps loss compared to autoattack, that’s what it was. The traitline most ranger trait into when using LB screams of burst, but ranger had none aside from maul. LB RF fits the traitline, it fits the profession and it fits Anets (latest) vision of the ranger. It should be the best ranged single target dps class, and it seems it is. What it doesn’t fit is people in the current pvp meta. I fought against LB ranger in pvp who actually took part in a 3v3 instead of sitting on a ledge. He wasn’t useless, but he could be dealt with. So no, RF is not just AFK brainded gameplay. People spamming it make it seem so. Also if you really think LB zerker ranger is afk brainded play, then go ahead and play it in a pvp tournament. I know its beyond your level because it doesn’t require skill, but please, indulge me and try it out in a competitive match where people are organized, and know what they are doing. Seriously, try it. If it really is that powerful, it will have its 15 mintues of fame even if you shout and cry all day. I don’t think it will however.

A link in the original post to the current kings would be nice, as well as link to the builds used by the challangers I think.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Hehe!

Aye, a potential 12 seconds of quickness when entering combat is pretty kitten nice (zephyr’s speed x2 + quickening zephyr).

You don’t need a keybind for that to work. I’ve been running a shortbow sword/warhorn zerker beastmaster in wvw, and worked like a charm. You just click it when you’re out of combat. Shouldn’t be a problem since you’re…. out of combat. Coming out of water? Just click it. I got used to it now, so even if a keybind would be introduced I probably wouldn’t use it.

solrik.6028:

Edit2: 10 dots above and 10 below seems to do the trick!

I think 3 dots should be enough

Was fun indeed, since none of us had any stability that clutch wolf in downed state. Hehe I didn’t play the build to its best, and storm spirit was a bad decision to include since solrik used axe. But I didn’t want to make a counter build, so I have only myself to blame. Those chill pets though… I’m curious who will defea solrik, its a pretty solid build.

Well what are your experiences? On a celestial axe/dagger shortbow ranger I don’t see how a LB zerker could kill me 1v1. If its the teamfights, well focus the ranger then. I’ve seen a group today with a warrior, a guard and a LB ranger. The warrior CC-d, the guard used wall to keep the ranger alive. It was part of their teamplay, not just someone sitting on a ledge spamming RF. In an organized team good players should be able to deal with the ranger IMO. I really don’t see why RF should be changed. If you want a telegraph for PBS, I’m fine with that. But that is all basically. I don’t see how a cooldown increase to 13-15 secs would solve anything, but still a lot of people are suggesting that. I would be fine with that change, but it wouldn’t change how good/easy ranger is.

Well you can do it here like myself.

solrik.6028:

I’ll be on in about 5 and a half hours from this post, so time your time for then.

OK, 8pm CEST it is.

Regarding celestial builds, maybe Anet will introduce more play against boons in general in the future (I would certainly be for that playing a ranger), but I kind of like the idea of celestial builds that might have more options available then a zerker build that needs to land its hopefully difficult burst. A celestial build should also need skill to either keep up decent might or to stay alive (maybe even both).

Speaking of celestial, has anyone looked at that for thieves? Although they are not in pvp yet, I was thinking of making a build for the evade runes. I don’t have a celestial set yet though and won’t have the time to grind one out.

mexay.3902:

Your “counters” don’t work because the one time I can stop the 5 – 20k damage from rapid fire with Endure Pain (or hopefully I’m not stupid enough to try with Sanctuary), I’m going to get hit another 5 times. Between that I’m receiving Auto-attacks, PBSs and Barrages.

High cool-down skills are not counter play to this.

Well if you’re a warrior/guardian who has to stay on point on pvp, I think the ranger buffs were introduced specifically against your role. To apply continued damage from long range. Ranger already had pretty good long range single target sustained power damage. What it didn’t have is burst. Because RF was such a long cast it was a dps loss compared to long range shot (auto attack). Optimal play was for a longbow ranger to deal damage via autoattack, and it still is IMO as RF is there for burst.

mexay.3902:

*Dodging without an adequate telegraph/wind-up is not adequate counter play. *

Either you (or your team) have to deal with the damage, or the range. You might not have played ranger in wvw a lot and don’t know much obstructed you can get on a LB ranger. I was fighting in Arah camp with one npc, noone in sight, and I got obstructed. This was between the ledge and the supplies where the npcs usually stand. There is not even grass there, so I have no clue what caused the obstructed, but it did happen. Line of sight the ranger, and he will be useless. Close the gap and he will need to stop pew-pewing. If you’re choosen prof can’t do it, it might be intentional, just like longbow rangers can’t deal with all other profs.

mexay.3902:

All high reward skills should offer effective counter play and risk

Counter play is already there. Retaliation, protection, vulnerability, confusion, blocks, evades, in case of autoattack or pbs blind or aegis, for the knockback stability, in case of all longbow skill interrupt as well. None of them are instant except hunter’s shot, but even that needs to hit in order to grant stealth. And everyone can use line of sight, dodges, body block from others (since most rangers will run eagle eye instead of piercing arrows) to negate some or all of the damage.
And risk is there too, because you ARE vulnerable to everything while you deal high damage. Just like shatter mesmers are squshy, or zerker thieves are squishy.

Julie Yann.5379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

1. Nothing to do with LB rangers, so even if relevant for you, doesn’t affect LB ranger viability.
2. In an organized group people will let each other know in TS where the ranger is and will be able to deal with them. I’d say if LB rangers become a thing in high level play (which I doubt) good teams will find a way to deal with rangers on those hard to reach points.
3. If you fight like a sentry in wvw, you die like one… no offence. You have to stay on point? Tough luck. I fought decap engies which resulted in the same, except they forced you off point with cc instead of damage. Ranger doesn’t have that many options to get you off point via cc.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Rangers needing anything but fullzerk to enhance their RF damage is frankly untrue.

Sure, if 5k damage on a 2.5s channel is your thing you can do that.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

So what change brought the skill floor down for rangers in your oppinion? Because they could rapidfire with Read the Wind and Eagle Eye from a ledge before patch as well. The reduction of the channel time lowered the skill floor of rangers to a level where it is too low? I’m not sure I follow. You say low risk high reward builds are bad for pvp. True. But what effect will this have in a pvp match between equally skilled players? I think none. At a tournament people won’t play LB ranger because its easy to pick up. Well some will, but they won’t get far unless they play a LB ranger to its best. And even then I think its place in tournament play is questionable. And soloq is just a mess. You can still run into organized groups with a pug, so I don’t think that is anything to go by.

solrik.6028:

nagymbear.5280:

2) Predator’s intinct, Pretadtor’s onslaught, Intimidating training and sic’em. Be affraid, be very affraid if you choose this one, your barkskin will be nothing but toothpick to my eagle. Yeah. Exactly.

A random number generator gave me 1724, limited between 1 and 3000.
Second build it is
Your link is broken. No it isn’t…

Sure about friday? I can tomorrow, friday and the weekend.

Another guy, warriorjrcd or something (sorry), challenged me but haven’t wrote it here so I guess it’s unofficial.

You’re first in list!

Edit:
I don’t use bark skin for last pushes. He-he

Edit: That’s a hawk btw.

I’m not sure about my Saturday evening, so I’d say Thursday or Friday. But I need some heads up on how to get to the duel itself, cause I mostly wvw.

Ok Solrik. If noone challanges you until Friday evening I will. And being the perfect gentleman I am I’ll let you choose from the below 3 /sparkles, fireworks, flashes/ AMAZING celestial builds:

1) Fire trap, spirits unbound and nature’s vengance for just that storm spirit, Signet of the Hunt, sigil of smoldering and runes of the elementalist. And… dun-dun-duuuuuun THE EAGLE OF YOUR NIGHTMARES…. mares…. res…
2) Predator’s intinct, Pretadtor’s onslaught, Intimidating training and sic’em. Be affraid, be very affraid if you choose this one, your barkskin will be nothing but toothpick to my eagle. Yeah. Exactly.
3) Or my personal favourite /drum roll/. Soldier runes, heal as one, reef drake, honed axes, 3 shouts, no RaO /whispering/ and no.friggin’.grandmaster trait. /tsissss…./
.
.
.
.
.
/drops the mike and walks away nodding with a mean stare/

I’m not gonna quote you since I hate walls of text. I was talking specifically about LB rangers. They will have read the wind and eagle eye traited if they want to “perch here and press 2”, so they will do nothing of the sort that you can see in the linked video. You are affraid that LB rangers will flood sPvP because of their low skill floor? Well then the teams who run with beginner LB rangers will just going to bend over and take it… nothing to worry about, right? Also dealing single target damage from 1500 has become really easy on certain builds (with heavy trait investment, one dimensional play and almost no ways of sustain), that is correct. But LB ranger is not just rapid fire, its just the most obvious side of it. Staying alive on a LB ranger takes skill IMO. Just like staying alive on a backstab thief takes skill as well. LB rangers won’t be as survivable close range as a shatter mesmer or a thief. If you are dedicated to spamming rapid fire you will need utilities to enhance damage (unlike mesmer or thief where you will have utilities to stay alive, or just generally be useful). A LB ranger has very little to offer in team support other then single target range damage. Insert SotW and Quickening Zephyr and you are left with 1 utility and your elite to stay alive with. Sure PBS and Hunter’s shot seem reaaaaly useful… when the fight lasts only 15 seconds.

Anyone wants/is able to record this? I would presume faces will be slapped with gloves come sunday morning.

solrik.6028:

EU KING >:D (since no one else has yet)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQRBHRxG2IjKNs2xiLLUtGwSoa3ABwo+8GaVnR7DcxVHVB-TZRHwAQLDQ4MAM4BAA4gAEa/BA

lol, I was gonna challange you to get this kitty started, but that build…

Few more things we should agree on I think. Should the challanger post their build? When can the King change their build? I think challangers should post their build (since they can look at the King’s build too). And King can make changes after challanger posts theirs.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

So you’re saying that people can’t deal with zerker shatter memsers in pvp? Because if they can, they can deal with rangers as well. Thieves and mesmers have ways to port to locations others cannot get to quickly. Other profs have options to buy themselves time with invulnerability or reflect. In that time they can finish off who they are fighting, or can go after the ranger. A lonbgow ranger on a ledge far away poses a new choice most people don’t seem to be happy with. It brings a change in what happened before, but I don’t think its the end of the world. If people can find out when they will get a backstab (which good players can), then they will be able to blind the ranger when he uses PBS as well. I fought a necro today in wvw who blinded me on 2-3 PBSs in a row. Either he was very, very, lucky (but what are the odds really) or he knew how to fight me. I think that on similar player skill thief>LB ranger, shatter mesmer>LB ranger. So what seems to be the problem here? All LB ranger has in its favor in the “oh so terrible circumstances” you visualize is position. Take that away and he is nothing.

So Rym will be crowned first on EU? Do you accept? What build will you reign supreme with?

solrik.6028:

then don’t change anything with the skill except reducing it’s projectile speed.

Results? Noobs are easy to hit close & far, skilled players can evade the arrows by timing their left/right strafes correctly.

Easy form for the handicapped people:
Rapid fire with reduced projectile speed leads to
-Skilled players can evade the arrows by strafing left and right
-Noobs will still be owned from distance
-Ambushes still possible

kitten I don’t have to write this… Any good ranger can figure out what slower RF means…

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

(Keep in mind that this is a change I suggest only for the scenario of anet deciding that the skill must be changed!)

Don’t we need the number of shots halved for this to work? I mean if you don’t change the channel time, how will that work?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

Not that I would be king of the hill or anything, but I think we won’t need a spreadsheet (I work with spreadsheets all day). How about this instead. Original post will include a link to the build of the king in this thread. King’s post will include a list of names with strikethrough who were defeated.

But let’s make it a bit more interesting. The king can make some changes to his/her build each time he/she is challanged.

Pick 2 from the below list:
- change 2 sigil’s worth of weapons
- reallocate 2 trait points
- change 2 major traits
- change 2 utilities
- change 1 pet

Then a king’s post would look like this:

My build. Come get some!

and a list of the previous fights

1. Petit moi vs that other dude
2. Petit moi vs some other dude
3. Petit moi vs yawn another one of them dudes.

If you want to do open world pve, you can do that in soldier gear as well. Its really up for personal preference. If you can handle yourself, than you can go full zerker, and just wreck everything before it reaches you. If not build more defensively (and also stay away from wvw for your own good).