Guild Wars 2

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

nearlight.3064:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

nearlight.3064:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Remedy.3429:

Elementalists are selfish? Maybe with heals but if you aren’t helping your teammates then you aren’t stacking might like you should. Giving 20 might to everyone on a node is pretty big. Not to mention attuning to water, dodging in water, and cleansing wave. Also 2 of our cantrips almost garuntee a stomp and almost garuntee a rez.

Sometimes on courtyard I’ll even use the aura share trait with magnetic aura. Pretty much protects the whole team during the opening parts of the fight.

This. Seriously. Eles getting another support spec is like thieves getting another burst spec and weapon. Useless and simply more of the same – what happened to elite specs changing the playstyle of the class and giving it new play options?

I’ve said this many times before, but eles are the most versatile profession in the game by design, and aren’t majorly deficient in any one thing that an elite spec could offer. Necros got a GS because they had no cleave. Mesmers got wells since they had poor AoE. Elementalists have the tools for everything in one way or another, even if some tools, like scepter are less ideal than their other tools, you cannot argue that those tools aren’t there.

I like how its giving you the ability to have gamechangin support by making tactical decisions instead of just going though fire-earth-water-air as a constant rotation.

Eles have neither a true burst weapon nor a single target ranged weapon, something that the elite spec should have offered (single target burst, ranged or true melee).

Yet they gave us the most boring thing ever, more of the same.

Are you daft? The Scepter is a single target ranged weapon. Its skills effect mostly one target (not all though) and its ranged? Even if it sucks, you can’t argue that its not a ranged single target weapon OR a burst weapon (it has the highest theoretical burst combo of damage in 1 second in the game). Honestly you’re missing the whole point because you can’t see the big picture here….

First of all, opening your “argument” with an insult makes you look like a little child that has no idea how the world functions.

Second, 900 range is middle range, not truly ranged (which is 1200-1500). Also, only the autoattacks and air skills for scepter are single target, everything else is aoe, like all our weapons.

So, are YOU daft?

No you’re still incorrect. Lets assume that there are two main things, melee (under 300 range), and ranged (greater than 300 range, or not in melee ranged). To say that scepter isn’t ranged is foolhardy. Also even then by your impractical definition, the staff is able to provide long range single target damage (and AoE damage). Its just not a ranger longbow.

How does having it be single target and ranged make a difference when staff is ranged and can damage both one target and multiple targets, which is generally much more useful, meanwhile scepter does fulfill that niche, and all of the scepter autoattacks are single target, so you must not know the skills if you think that some of the autos are aoes. And the air lightning strikes that makes up most of the damage on fresh air specs are single target.

EDIT: Also I was infracted apparently because calling someone daft is very offensive insult.. So heres my original post sans “insult”

The Scepter is a single target ranged weapon. Its skills effect mostly one target (not all though) and its ranged? Even if it sucks, you can’t argue that its not a ranged single target weapon OR a burst weapon (it has the highest theoretical burst combo of damage in 1 second in the game).

Khenzo.2465:

Vesuvius.9874:

Azel.4786:

And pardon me for not being excited about having to sit in an attunment for X amount of time, then having to channel that attunement for 2,5s-5s hoping no one will interrupt me with the insane amount of interrupts in game, and then, if it works or if it doesn’t, being locked out from that attunement for 15s-20s.

Sure will love when I need to heal and am locked out of water or when I need to do damage and will be locked out of fire / air, sounds super!

I think you just described a play style that’s different from the current norm. Isn’t that what ANET “promised” ?

Um, I am pretty sure he/she did.

From the looks of it, they basically defeated their own claims, lol.

All of the anti-tempest QQers have gross contradictions in all of their arguments that make me question whether or not they actually play the game, or spend all their time complaining on the forums about problems that don’t exist instead of playing.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

nearlight.3064:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

The new elite shout is so bad I don’t even believe it’s real. It maybe useful in pve – but even then only when you’re in teamspeak. In pvp it’s basically unusable.

25% less recharge isn’t much, it’s only really useful for skills with cooldowns above 2 minutes, i.e. other elites. So eles get an elite that doesn’t even do anything for them. Wow.

It has a ton of potential in organized groups. More time warps and rampages? Thats just so powerful.

Sure, but a skill that REQUIRES TEAMSPEAK to function correctly is insanely bad design, and useless in all groups where you do not have access to teamspeak – and even then there’s a delay for the voice coupled with lag from the game meaning you’ll still use the 25% reduction on the wrong skill sometimes.

It has bad design written all over it. Also, again, it’s the only elite in the game that needs allies to function at all. Horrible, simply horrible.

Huh, can’t you use to lower the CD of your own long cooldown casts as well? I mean yeah they could have made a better skill, but it already has more potential use than every other elite we have.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Remedy.3429:

Elementalists are selfish? Maybe with heals but if you aren’t helping your teammates then you aren’t stacking might like you should. Giving 20 might to everyone on a node is pretty big. Not to mention attuning to water, dodging in water, and cleansing wave. Also 2 of our cantrips almost garuntee a stomp and almost garuntee a rez.

Sometimes on courtyard I’ll even use the aura share trait with magnetic aura. Pretty much protects the whole team during the opening parts of the fight.

This. Seriously. Eles getting another support spec is like thieves getting another burst spec and weapon. Useless and simply more of the same – what happened to elite specs changing the playstyle of the class and giving it new play options?

I’ve said this many times before, but eles are the most versatile profession in the game by design, and aren’t majorly deficient in any one thing that an elite spec could offer. Necros got a GS because they had no cleave. Mesmers got wells since they had poor AoE. Elementalists have the tools for everything in one way or another, even if some tools, like scepter are less ideal than their other tools, you cannot argue that those tools aren’t there.

I like how its giving you the ability to have gamechangin support by making tactical decisions instead of just going though fire-earth-water-air as a constant rotation.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

The new elite shout is so bad I don’t even believe it’s real. It maybe useful in pve – but even then only when you’re in teamspeak. In pvp it’s basically unusable.

25% less recharge isn’t much, it’s only really useful for skills with cooldowns above 2 minutes, i.e. other elites. So eles get an elite that doesn’t even do anything for them. Wow.

It has a ton of potential in organized groups. More time warps and rampages? Thats just so powerful.

Eles are the best and most versatile profession the game. There is nothing that they are deficient in that an elite spec could bring, such as melee cleave to necromancers who had none before.

The elite spec is bringing a new playstyle that breaks the usually flow of being a rotation attunement dancing on cooldown bot, which is refreshing, and I sincerely hope they make these overcharges worth it to justify this new playstyle.

Hahaha well Guardians will be arguably better at pew pewing than rangers, so its full circle I suppose!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

eh, so mecha legs have both 25% move speed and -33% reduction ?

nearlight, this is a question topic btw hahaha

You’re fine. I was just tired from trying to teach the reluctant salty eles to embrace the warhorn and tempest.

lordhelmos.7623:

nearlight.3064:

lordhelmos.7623:

While it will be god mode in pve, in pvp the entire elite spec is shut down by mantra of distraction.

I feel the need to point out a direct contradiction in your argument. You say that the entire elite spec will be shut down by the mantra of distraction, but do you know what mantras are?

They’re skills that require a 2.75 second channel time by which to activate, before you can use the skill for its strong effects. If your argument is to be completely valid, then mantras must also be unviable too. Oh wait, they’re actually the crux of the most commonly seen mesmer build in high level tournaments right now.

Most mesmers precast them before going into battle. Unless theres a no out of combat rule to the overcharge mechanic, you could likely begin the channel as you go into a fight. Even if you use them in the fight, mantra mesmers are able to consistently channel their mantras without getting focus fired and chain CCed to death, even though they have no stability at all on a mantra build. Its because of two things, positioning, and protected mantras being baseline that allow them to charge in combat, in high level tournaments with no problem. When you channel a mantra you get +600 toughness during the channel. When tempest channels their overcharge, apparently traits can get enhanced damage mitigation from traited protection (again all the details are unclear). If a mantra mesmer, in marauder or zerker amulet can get a mantra channel off in combat with no problem, then I don’t see any reason why a celestial elementalist would fail to get off if they have good positioning, as they can take so many more hits.

Anyway yeah, so if mesmers have no problem charging mantras in combat, I don’t see how elementalists would have a major problem, especially when the earth one has defiance. Sure it will get interrupted sometimes, but clearly not every time they go for it if they know what they’re doing. Its high risk, high reward, something that elementalists have never had to worry about before given how low risk, high reward their cele builds in pvp have always been.

On my Mesmer I can recharge my mantra in stealth. Good luck doing that on an ele. Thing is you left stealth out of your argument, which is a huge factor. Second, mesmers can distortion or blink to high ground or 1200m to fight reset and re mantra.

Look ele has no problem disengaging with rtl and flash. But if a Mesmer and tempest disengage who gains the advantage? As a Mesmer I can re-enter the fight in sealth then mantra stun > gs burst you from 100 to 0.

How effective is the tempest going to be vs a lethal enemy that can kill you from max range. Will your overcharges hit him from that range? How about thief and its ability to withdraw/shadow step out of your overcharge or stun steal to you to interrupt it?

What if you push aggression with your overcharge? The most basic Mesmer can:

1 Moa
2 diversion, which is an interrupt with huge field aoe
3 One of his 2 charged MoDs
4 gs illusionary wave
5 blink out of range
6 blurred frenzy through the final burst
7 decoy and the prestige stealth escape

My question is when is it ever going to be strategically advantageous for you to put one of you attunements at risk for an overcharge that is going to be laughably easy to counter or punish you for using. Half of those counters will stop your channel dead.

I stand by synopsis that if you use this you will be food. You might as well dive into a sea of sharks covered in chum. Your survival rate will be about the same

The current meta mantra mesmer build used in tourneys doesn’t even have any stealth at all (staff/GS, no decoy, no torch even), so your argument is still invalid when Mime and Happy Kid (in the last ESL) were able to charge mantras in combat using a zerker ammy just relying on posititioning from the staff, with 0 stealth. And obviously you won’t want to overcharge in a 1v1, its clearly meant to be a gamechanging teamfight ability. The only downside in my mind is that you’ll need a bunker guard or something to hold point for 3-5 seconds while you channel, which isn’t a huge downside.

You’re trying to turn this into an argument of tempest vs. mesmer 1v1. Thats not what I care about or was talking about at all if you read my post. I’m just saying if mesmers can charge mantras in TEAMFIGHT combat with good positioning, then elementalists can do. That was my point.

ResJudicator.7916:

nearlight.3064:

^^ hes right you know, Ele has everything, so there wasn’t really anything purely and totally new that an elite spec could offer, and its cool that its offering a way to be viable without being a skill rotation bot machine.

He’s not right. Ele lacks a strong burst build that isn’t completely outclassed by thief and mesmer. (I can count on one hand the number of times fresh air has been run in a tournament, and in every instance the fresh air ele was a complete liability to the team).

Then again, it’s too early to say whether tempest will be good or not. Maybe the tempest traits will allow for a new burst build. Too early to tell.

Zoose carried his team in that game. Anyway the point is that a burst spec exists and is possible. Even if its not ideal, its still possible. Meanwhile for other classes they couldn’t even try because they tools (like no necro cleave) weren’t there for them. The tools for every type of build were always there for elementalist, even if its far outclassed, you can’t argue that its not there.

As someone who plays elementalist a lot, I can say that most eles that spec into tempest in pvp, assuming a cele water/arcane/temp set up will probably still run lightning flash and armor of earth, simply because they’re too useful, and will be even more useful with attunement overcharges. It will depend on cooldown, but the AoE stunbreak shout looks very strong for countering things like Shiro Rev Jade Wind (3 second AoE stun). The heal could be potentiall used over the signet depending on numbers. The elite shout will probably be used since in pvp, the FGS is the only other elite, and its literally just a glorified taxi.

^^ hes right you know, Ele has everything, so there wasn’t really anything purely and totally new that an elite spec could offer, and its cool that its offering a way to be viable without being a skill rotation bot machine.

Yeah I knew it would be shouts, I predicted shouts and warhorn long before the reveal because the first article about elite specs in April said “at least one profession will be getting a full set of 6 shouts”. And I was right, based on that one sentence

They said in the article that fresh air would refresh overcharges so thats something, considering the “meta” fresh air build doesn’t use water, so it’d have room to pick up tempest, but I agree that fixing it will be needed, but I think d/wh looks so far to be a very powerful combination.

lordhelmos.7623:

While it will be god mode in pve, in pvp the entire elite spec is shut down by mantra of distraction.

I feel the need to point out a direct contradiction in your argument. You say that the entire elite spec will be shut down by the mantra of distraction, but do you know what mantras are?

They’re skills that require a 2.75 second channel time by which to activate, before you can use the skill for its strong effects. If your argument is to be completely valid, then mantras must also be unviable too. Oh wait, they’re actually the crux of the most commonly seen mesmer build in high level tournaments right now.

Most mesmers precast them before going into battle. Unless theres a no out of combat rule to the overcharge mechanic, you could likely begin the channel as you go into a fight. Even if you use them in the fight, mantra mesmers are able to consistently channel their mantras without getting focus fired and chain CCed to death, even though they have no stability at all on a mantra build. Its because of two things, positioning, and protected mantras being baseline that allow them to charge in combat, in high level tournaments with no problem. When you channel a mantra you get +600 toughness during the channel. When tempest channels their overcharge, apparently traits can get enhanced damage mitigation from traited protection (again all the details are unclear). If a mantra mesmer, in marauder or zerker amulet can get a mantra channel off in combat with no problem, then I don’t see any reason why a celestial elementalist would fail to get off if they have good positioning, as they can take so many more hits.

Anyway yeah, so if mesmers have no problem charging mantras in combat, I don’t see how elementalists would have a major problem, especially when the earth one has defiance. Sure it will get interrupted sometimes, but clearly not every time they go for it if they know what they’re doing. Its high risk, high reward, something that elementalists have never had to worry about before given how low risk, high reward their cele builds in pvp have always been.

Rednik.3809:

3. Legendary warhorn not fits for ele at all.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My elementalist is a norn female in in cultural T3 armor (the leggings have a wolf head belt buckle), and I have howler back from my days as a necro main in a WvW guild. This elite spec is literally aesthetically perfect for me in every way, but I can understand that this wouldn’t satisfy the hordes of human female eles in the game.

lucadiro.4519:

I really dont care about the fact we will get warhorn. I really care and in qqing and will qq more for the fact that arenanet seems forget that elementalist have another main hand. Not only the dagger

So what? Mesmers wanted another mainhand just as bad as you, and they got a 5th offhand that won’t compete with their current offhands outside of wvw. The warhorn so far looks like its adding stafflike support/CC/damage that can be used with a MH dagger (which is a really amazing weapon).

Nier.8741:

I don’t understand how people think Ranger is low tier when it’s actually a really strong class atm.

Quickness res and stomps change games. And they bait dodges and cool downs pretty kitten well. I’m talking about the Long Bow Zerk Ranger btw. If you get people to go defensive by obstructing them, then you are giving your team breathing room and if people focus you you can dodge it so easy cause pulsing stability, invulns and evade spam.

Like honestly everything is high tier, just that they need to nerf Ele and Mesmer.

Yeah, but most ranger players that don’t compete higher tier, suck, and have no idea how to kite. Most just sit there and longbow auto me instead of using the GS when I close the gap.

I’ve met a few rangers that really impressed me and new exactly how to kite and disengage and whatnot, but more often than not, I meet pew pew rangers that are free kills.

If it worked more like the churning earth blast from ele earth dodge roll evasive arcana proc (which has a 9 second icd attunebased) it would be better. That skill applies the blast right at the end of the dodge roll, theres no waiting for the blast to go off after you ddoge, which just feels clunky and useless. The ele version has more control since its attunement based as well.

Astralporing.1957:

TheSwede.9512:

The Horn might turn out a Hyper-offensive Off-hand meant for sustained DPS, something that the Elementalist is currently lacking.

We have staff for that. And any offhand that would make the new build rival the sustained dps of staff would be borderline OP (wait, no, it would be just plain OP).
For Ele, we do not need several different weapon sets doing the same thing. What we need is weapons for different playstyles. Warhorn is unlikely to supply that.

Name 1 major thing that the elementalist is “severely” deficient in that a new weapon could fix?

Thats how it worked for the other classes (like necro needing GS for having no cleave) but I don’t think it will work like that on elementalist simply because it is versatile enough to not be severely deficient in anything. You won’t have everything on one weaponset due to no weapon swapping, but every main gameplay style is already there on the ele as a whole.

Personally I see the warhorn as having mobile/cascading AoEs that move with you, so you can have on one build, the AoE potential of a staff, along with the sustained damage, cleave, and PbAoE of the MH dagger.

The ele is in such a great spot right now that I can’t think of one thing that they desperately need to be better overall.

@Azel, what you fail to realize is that the Elementalist is such a good profession in every game mode that its not severely deficient in anything. It doesn’t have a major weakness in what it can do unlike most of the other classes. It can already do everything important now, so the warhorn will proabably be completely outside the box, and may not use the pattern of previous specs of giving something new the base class was weak in.

Ele has cleave, they have AoE, they have healing, they have damage, they have pretty much everything. So I bet the warhorn may be similar to current things they already have, but they’ll do it in a new and unique way, such as with the cascading AoE idea.

rotten.9753:

nearlight.3064:

I can’t see any logical reasoning to support that theory either. The weapon skills and the new mechanics may have synergy, but range isn’t really enough to tell if they have synergy or not, especially when we have 0 info on weapon skills for the warhorn. You’re literally talking out of your kitten , just so you’re aware.

We don’t know anything about the weapon. We clearly can’t take datamined skills as truth, after all, what about those datamined sword skills you all believed in?

At least my theory has some basis on the singularity mechanic, unlike other wishful thinkers. We also know that anet likes to “innovate” with HoT and since warhorns are mid-long range supportive weapons I cannot expect the same with the tempest warhorn.

Datamined singularity wasn’t some kind of placeholder and it’s relatively new one. Too close to the release to be remade into something else.

Yeah, but still, something like range and numbers could easily be tweaked before release, I mean look at when they changed the range on necro locust swarm or ranger shortbow?

Yeah its a theory, but I don’t see how the singularity is indicative of the weapon skills. You make a case with evidence that doesn’t necessarily relate. It could be, or it couldn’t be, but we have no real connection between weapon skills and the singularity to suggest either way.

We all need to calm down and reserve final judgement until after the livestream. Although to be fair, the QQ is pretty pointless. Look at all the negative dragonhunter feedback, that far eclipses the tempest feedback so far. Yeah, maybe they’ll make some small tweaks before release but they’re not going to completely change the weapon type, and make new skills and traits after they’ve already made them. so therefore, the complaints on this forum, won’t matter much in the longrun, besides letting them know you want a sword next time.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Maelstrom

I expect a water skill that works like this!

Laraley.7695:

nearlight.3064:

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

The OP’s maturity level is so impressive.

/endthread

The irony in your statement makes me laugh.

You talk about maturity and yet cannot grasped the simple concept of opinions. Part of growing up is understanding that people will have a different opinion than yours. It isn’t the end of the world, if you like the war horn that’s cool, we don’t and we get to complain about. That’s why forums exist.

The point being, stop projecting your insecurities.

You’re wrong. Im saying that it’s immature to not buy something just because of one teaser image, when we know literally nothing about how the spec will work as a whole. I’m excited for the expansion and grateful for all the hard work the devs have put into it.

In my eyes it seems disrespectful to be so shortsighted.

I find if disrespectful to call someone immature because of their opinion.

You don’t need to know much to know if you’re going to be disappointed or not. For me it’s enough to know it’s offhand, all I need. And I don’t blame people for being upset with the devs, they clearly haven’t visited ele forums in weeks.

So just to clarify, if it were another offhand, even an offhand sword or axe or mace or something like that you’d still be annoyed?

I may disagree with you 100% about this, and I still think that you and all the others complaining are being hasty in your judgements.

I retract my statement of immaturity, and apologize, since the OP has other reasons, besides the elite spec that make them not want to buy the expansion, and I can actually respect those reasons.

And as a note, the mesmer community was initially slightly dispointed at getting shield (although not as nearly as bad as this) and like the eles, they thought their class “deserved” a new mainhand, but as they learned all the info they needed, they stopped caring, they adapted, and moved on. Also partially because mesmer is really good right now regardless of chronomancer, but elementalist is also really good right now. Your complaints of a lack of build diversity are valid, but it doesn’t change the fact that ele is a top tier profession despite all of that. These two scenarios are similar, but eles seem much more aghast by it, and I think thats due to aesthetic biases against the warhorn that likely have little to do with weapon skills or gameplay.

There was also TONS of negative feedback surrounding dragonhunter too, pages, upon pages of negative feedback, but the devs have already made the class internally, complaining about it won’t change anything, except let them know you really want a sword or mainhand in the next expansion. The tempest blowout is completely dwarfed by the dragonhunter feedback, but most of the guardians have moved on except for a vocal minority.

And Laraley, of course they read some things in the forums, but they don’t always take people’s suggestions seriously because they have their own visions and goals that are unknown to us, and they have the forum specialists to collect feedback when needed. It would be foolish to say they visit the ele forums less than any other forum for the game. They also have their own internal data about which skills/traits/weapons are being used the most, and they watch tournaments to get a sense of balance.

So in short, I respectfully ask you to refrain from final judgment until you see the livestream, and to keep an open mind during the event. You could change your mind depending on what they have to show.

Conncept.7638:

Pretty clear on most of them, only hiccup I noticed is with the elementalist, who has a totally different body type than compared to the core ele. The core is this compact squat athletic body, specialization is your typical models hourglass.

But shes had three years to change her diet/excercise patterns and hairstyle.

zorokai.1486:

nearlight.3064:

zorokai.1486:

nearlight.3064:

zorokai.1486:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

skullfaerie.7203:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I mean, Chronomancer also got an offhand and the shield skills seem pretty good.

It’s not so much about getting an offhand weapon per se, it’s about said offhand being the warhorn.

Mesmer+Shield is just in a completely different league, in that it always had the potential to be good (imo anyways).

I’m just confused as to why precisely warhorn would be worse? We don’t know its skills? Ele could use it entirely differently from other profs? I don’t get why it’s inherently inferior?

Well for now – All Warhorn skills on All classes are pretty lack luster and do not seem very viable, apart from the shoutbow warrior using a WH.

For me Id say that the WH is so limited in what it can do (apply wind to WH) about it – call birds, blast finisher, buff, (all of these the ele already has with the standard set of skills – may be not the bird but they can already summon Elemental beings to fight for them) So what is it exactly adding to the class?

IMO they could have given the ele like the sword or a combat staff (even if they already have a ranged staff) that would have been more creative or inspiring. a WH feels kinda Meh.

Locust swarm on necromancer is an amazing skill, it’s probably the fastest form of life force generation the necromancer has in a teamfight.

Meanwhile the ranger warhorn gives group support in pve. The shoutbow warhorn trait was actually nerfed for being too strong.

So clearly you don’t play these other classes if you think their warhorn skills suck.

My point still stands that MOST WARHORNs are pretty useless compared to their other available weapon choices. The WarHorn is stil llimited in what it can do , and animation wise what else can it do but get “blown into”? still a very Meh weapon to be given to any class.

You’ve clearly never watched top Necromancer gameplay, where they dote on how warhorn is by far the best offhand for power/minion/cele necro. This is because it has fast life force generation, CC and lets you get places faster. The other offhand choices for necromancer, especially focus, suck, really quite hard.

This is the age of ranged hammers and melee staffs and magical longbows and time traveling shields. You must be truly ignorant if you think that the ele warhorn is going to lack any flavor or uniqueness.

Good job you’ve latched onto One part of the comment – Reading skills OP here…
Again still like i said WarHorn is still BS on most classes (Not just NECRO FOCUSED).

Well looking at the History of skills/Animations from the Anet kitten nal for WarHorn, cant say they have a lot of “Flavor or Uniqueness” more the same – blow into a horn – Yea truly impressive and all inspiring. The new skin for the WarHorn Soo Flavourful and Unique – honestly just looks like ice cream splattered on the WarHorn….

I bet that not all of the skills for the ele warhorn will have blowing animations (maybe some, maybe none, but not all) and I bet that it won’t be purely a support weapon.

A 4/5 stat ammy for necro would be even better than cele, because they don’t have that many ways to use healing power with the kitten y signet, even though they have the tools for everything else.

I’d say it’d be the same but without condi damage for cele engis since incendiary poweder was gutted and moved out of explosives.

Morwath.9817:

Few thoughts:
-> Boon Corruption is much weaker feature than prepatch. It’s random now, which means no Fear chains on targets with Stability.
-> Condi Transfers are much weaker, since there are less condis around. No Shoutbow, no Terrormancers, no Cele Rifle Engies.
-> You can’t have all features you’ve mentioned above while playing Celestial: a) Signets and fast Might stacking; b) Wells and AoE cleave, c) ability to disengage with Flesh Wurm, d) Blood Magic.
-> I would like to mention that actualy Necro is pretty bad at disengaging while unfavoured (enemy gets +1) unless you play both Flesh Wurm and Plague. Which imho means you overvaluated how good Necro is in 1v1, since 1v1 leads often to +1 at one side.
-> Death Shroud is inferior compared to any escape mechanism while under focused fire, since a) you can’t benefit from AoE heals/regeneration, b) you’ve to take all incoming damage.
-> Contributing in larger fights require sacrifices (e.g. you’ve to pick Blood Magic instead of Spite(boon corruption,might stacking)/Curses(passive transfer, weakening shroud)/Soul Reaping (survi). Necro by deflaut is selfish class.

I see your argument, but I will stick with necromancer as one of the classes I play until I stop playing this game. Its fun for me, and I don’t think its pleasant to think about how I’m running a nceromancer is hurting my team instead of playing d/d ele or mantraspam mesmer, so in conclusion, I will play how I want because I know that I am good at this class and I can help my team win by playing it.

Sorry this is a really complex argument, but I’ve just been arguing so much on the forums (against the antiwarhorn ele coalition ie. the most stubborn vocal minority in the history of gw2) that I really can’t argue anymore and its stressing me out.

Iceflame.5024:

Login.5102:

Soul Reaping train line is used for (almost)every build.

Zerkwells
SigCele
Bunk
Condi

MM? i take it i over curses and spite.

DP,SM/Last gasp/ VP/DP can’t live without you.

Not complaining, but is there anyone out there who doesn’t use SR? cause i want to internet fight you.

Was just thinking the same thing and on my way to gw2 build editor to try and come up with a build that does not use soul reaping but for me that owuld basicaly mean a build that does not use staff and our other weaponskills are sadly extremely lackluster to compete with staffs utility.

Soul marks alone is extremely huge with making marks unblockable and then adding LF on top of it. Then you add vital persistence and death perception or foot in the grave and it’s almost always too freaking good to pass up.

Current soul reaping is like pre dhuumfire 10 points into death magic for greater marks but this time it’s a whole trait line lol.

I tried a condi necro build for pvp with spite/curses/blood and it was the most horrible thing I’ve played in a while. I thought unholy martyt would give me tons of sustain.. and it did until I drew immobolize and 12 stacks of burning..

rotten.9753:

nearlight.3064:

The vocal minority has spoken, and Woodenpotatoes has responded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR7OE0h85go

Please watch this video, and then if you still have any logical ways to argue against the warhorn, then you will truly be as stubborn as an ox.

Your reasoning flabbergasts me. Besides, this lore guy isn’t an alpha and omega.

Your reasoning also flabbergasts me. Forget about the lore and focus on the middle of the video where he talks about the ways in which the ele is strong and how warhorn could support that.

I mean his idea for a maelstrom spell.. whats not totally awesome and useful about that?

apharma.3741:

nearlight.3064:

This is so so so so true. Right now I’m defending the idea or a warhorn for the elite spec, and so many people are upset and they’re spouting ludicrous arguments such as, “Main hand dagger isn’t good, so we needed another mainhand weapon” (which is laughable since MH dagger is amazing), or “our current offhands are already so great” (that doesn’t mean that the WH won’t have its own impactful game changing skills).

The problem with ele mains are that they’ve never had to really adapt because except for one meta in 2013, they’ve been the best class in the game, yet those that only play ele can’t see the ele in relation to other classes. They think that the elementalist has tons of problems, when anyone who multiclasses knows that their problems are very few and they have so many great tools to work with.

Its not really relevant, but its what I see, and I’m frustrated with these stubborn ele mains who don’t realize how great their class is, because if they realized that they wouldn’t be so dismissive of getting an offhand weapon for their elite spec.

Well, I main an ele and various things are true but some are not entirely correct.

A lot of eles complaining about eles are complaining about the complete lack of diversity. In any PvP scenario whether it be WvW or PvP you feel forced into water or arcana, often both. I know, top tier and I do play other classes.

As for the offhand warhorn, it’s just not a good idea to have a complete new specialization system and then add something that will interact with so much. It’s not just 2 skills you’re balancing with possibly 9-12 others on mainhand, it’s 8 skills with upto 24 others on the main hand. It would be much easier and better to give a 2 hander weapon and make balancing easier.

Also I want a greatsword that doesn’t suck kittens to go kitten and then walk home.

As for mesmers, pre patch they felt like cut price guardians and wannabe thieves. After patch they feel like they can compete with the two classes but not both at the same time.

Mesmers have arguably always been forced into dueling, (and domination to a lesser extent) and no ones complaining about that. You take the traitlines that make you viable, and I don’t see how eles can be so miffed by that fact when every class has 1 or 2 traitlines that works its way into every single pvp build. And I don’t see how taking their frustration out on a warhorn, for purely aesthetic reasons is logical in the slightest. Yes a two handed ele weapon would have been cool, but literally any new weapons could be cool becauase eles have such a strong foundation on which the class rests on. They aren’t really deficient in anything like necros were deficient in cleave or mesmers were deficient in wvw aoe stuff.

So I just don’t get why they’re so upset, because I see potential for a lot of geat things when we actually learn about the details for tempest.

rotten.9753:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I doubt it would be a close ranged weapon. Dagger is mid range and scepter is long range. Having a close range offhand without a close range mainhand wouldnt make any sense.

Recently datamined singularity has 180 range. I can’t see any logical reasoning to not have this new offhand supplementing close range play style.

I can’t see any logical reasoning to support that theory either. The weapon skills and the new mechanics may have synergy, but range isn’t really enough to tell if they have synergy or not, especially when we have 0 info on weapon skills for the warhorn. You’re literally talking out of your kitten , just so you’re aware.

We don’t know anything about the weapon. We clearly can’t take datamined skills as truth, after all, what about those datamined sword skills you all believed in?

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

Unless you are the true master of the fleshwurm I’m inclined to disagree, but if you can back up your claim, I’m all ears.

Point is, Celstial isn’t more squishy because it’s more squishy… but Terroromancer could take more damage because everyone was able to deal less damage.

Well even so, thats a moot point. Comparing two different stat set ups in two different metas doesn’t really achieve much for us. We have to focus on the now while learning from the past, and right now condi necro sucks, and I know you know this, and being squishy is only one of the many reasons it sucks. Cele necro is good now, and thats what counts, even if you insist that terrormancer was better than it was in the past, I just don’t see how that argument helps us rate the current viablity of necromancer.

Maybe I should ask differently:
-> What is Necro good for?
-> What Necro does better than other professions?
-> What Necro does worse than other professions?
-> Summarize… and ask yourself, if you there is a reason to pick Necro instead of other profession?

The profession in general:

1. Boon corruption, high sustained damage, control effects/soft cc condis (like weakness), self-mightstacking, burst AoE damage (wells), condi transfers, transfusion rezzes and siphons.
2. Necro has better boon corruption than any other class, and life force lets it unbalance 1v1s in its favor (a trickier advantage, but still an advantage). They also have better sustain vs. condis than any class due to the transfers and high health pool and whatnot.
3. Non-burst condi pressure, mobility, and ability to disengage.

After looking at this, I still think there is reason to pick celestial necromancer over other classes. If you can make up for the loss in mobility in other areas (such as by running a mesmer/thief) you get a durable fighter that can win 1v1s and smaller fights with ease and contribute high sustained single target damage in teamfights, while being tanky enough to be very hard to kill. If they focus a full life force necro in a teamfight, the rest of the team should be able to capitalize on how long it takes to get through all of that health. People underestimate how power deathshroud can be when its used properly.

In 1v1s I’d put necromancer just behind D/D ele in terms of what they are capable of in that regard, and like D/D ele (but unlike condi ranger/engi and other 1v1 focused classes) they can contribute in larger fights as well.

Taldren.7523:

rapthorne.7345:

Given that we have precident of ANet utilising weapons differently on different classes (Necro Axe, Mesmer Greatsword, Ranger Axe, etc), why is there so much hate for Wh when we don’t even have a clue what it will do yet, and Anet said any class that just gets an offhand will also be getting new mechanics added.

Because Scepter sucks and its just another Dagger + X combo. We are forced into the same 12 abilities that every elementalist has used exclusively since launch day.

Also, an offhand gives us 8 new abilities … a main hand would have given us 12.

12 new skills is also way more weapon skills than any other spec has received so far and is likely to recieve. 8 is fine considering when reaper got 10, chrono got 2, so.. I fail to see how number of new abilities is a compelling argument in anyway?

Solori.6025:

That partially explains a lot.
You don’t know.
You main an Ele which right now
IS the god tier of spvp.

If you want a reliable counter to any class right now, pick an ele, get celestial amulet.
laugh at people as you get 800-1000 burn ticks for free. While still doing damage and tanking.

This is so so so so true. Right now I’m defending the idea or a warhorn for the elite spec, and so many people are upset and they’re spouting ludicrous arguments such as, “Main hand dagger isn’t good, so we needed another mainhand weapon” (which is laughable since MH dagger is amazing), or “our current offhands are already so great” (that doesn’t mean that the WH won’t have its own impactful game changing skills).

The problem with ele mains are that they’ve never had to really adapt because except for one meta in 2013, they’ve been the best class in the game, yet those that only play ele can’t see the ele in relation to other classes. They think that the elementalist has tons of problems, when anyone who multiclasses knows that their problems are very few and they have so many great tools to work with.

Its not really relevant, but its what I see, and I’m frustrated with these stubborn ele mains who don’t realize how great their class is, because if they realized that they wouldn’t be so dismissive of getting an offhand weapon for their elite spec.

Windwalker.7421:

So what about when CS gets nerfed, you could then use Shield #5 for the stun to burst into. :P

I agree in principle with many things Fay said, but I do believe it’s too early to judge it fully. I think that getting 30% extra crit chance on slowed targets is a pretty big deal, and although that has little/nothing to do with Shield directly, it is a pretty easy & reliable way to get that Slow.

The dual Phants with Chronophantasm GM could be pretty neat for double MWs (F5).

Yeah but that stun is still telegraphed with a huge and so so pretty animation. You can’t really compare it to instant cast mantra cheese.

Pistol is good on certain builds. I think the pistol trait that applies bleeds is bugged now.. unless they fixed it?

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

Unless you are the true master of the fleshwurm I’m inclined to disagree, but if you can back up your claim, I’m all ears.

Point is, Celstial isn’t more squishy because it’s more squishy… but Terroromancer could take more damage because everyone was able to deal less damage.

Well even so, thats a moot point. Comparing two different stat set ups in two different metas doesn’t really achieve much for us. We have to focus on the now while learning from the past, and right now condi necro sucks, and I know you know this, and being squishy is only one of the many reasons it sucks. Cele necro is good now, and thats what counts, even if you insist that terrormancer was better than it was in the past, I just don’t see how that argument helps us rate the current viablity of necromancer.

The vocal minority has spoken, and Woodenpotatoes has responded.

Please watch this video, and then if you still have any logical ways to argue against the warhorn, then you will truly be as stubborn as an ox.

Morwath.9817:

nearlight.3064:

Morwath.9817:

Abjured comp isn’t unstoppable with him.
Necro is amazing class as long as your team has edge over enemies, however Necro becomes worse when you’re equal with enemies and gets dead weight when you’re behind.

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIkJmb7PeyM
(oRNG wins vs Abjured 2:0 in Boston, prepatch and imho Necro was better prepatch than now)

Speaking broadly about this issue, more than just your video,

I’d argue that its better now. Cele is tanky. Its limited by kinda meh healing, but its tanky and has high sustained damage and pressure against condis.

Wells are pretty counterable. And the condi builds in the past.. well theyre too frail right now for the lack of condi pressure they’ve brought since all those nerfs in he past and present.

And in general I feel that rotations and teamwork are far more important than the class/build you play.. although necros are only really disadvantaged in that way because of poor mobility, meaning the rest of the team needs to get around point to point a bit faster, but a mobile necro would be OP as kitten, so yeah.

And about backpack as a mesmer, I like him as a player, but he, and all the other new mesmers out there are being carried by the braindead ease of the mantra build. You don’t even need to time your shatters when you can stun every 5 seconds.

Imho Celestial now is much more squishy than prepatch Terrormancer with this abundance of damage floating around.

Unless you are the true master of the fleshwurm I’m inclined to disagree, but if you can back up your claim, I’m all ears.

Builds without soulreaping are quite problematic, as it its the only tree that gives us both survivability (vital persistance or foot in the grave) and damage (unyieliding blast or death perception) along with a bunch of utility to make up noticeably better overall.

Aedil.1296:

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/623161106425606144/

What will this week bring for #GW2HoT? ~RB2

Delusion Ruby, delusion.

I really wanted a sword for ele.
Why anet is so great in destroying my expectations?

Because you trusted in the datamined sword skills that were just dagger skills with different names.

Would people still be disappointed if that sword skill datamine leak never occurred? I think the effect would be drastically less.

Tantrikx.7653:

I can only speak for myself and my relatively limited experience with ELE and as a disclaimer I don’t pvp much at all and focus on PVE mostly.

Until I see what direction the elite spec (tempest) goes, I will remain a bit skeptical. While there are lots of possibilities for WH and plenty of options with our 4 attunements, the fundamental problem I have is that we already have two offhand options that provide very distinct and a fairly comprehensive coverage with OH dagger being a great offensive/support option and focus being a defensive/support option. Both have a fire field and blast finishers that assist the ELE in stacking might for itself and allies. Unless the value of might is substantially changed to be something more niche (highly doubtful) the Warhorn must have a blast finisher or two and a firefield to compete with the existing OH options. With that in mind my concern is that in order for the Warhorn to compete with existing options it either has those abilities I mentioned before and thus is not as interesting an option in playstyle over existing OH options, Has less or none of those abilities and is not considered very powerful compared to existing options, or finally it has a far more finishers/firefields which would make it the only logical OH option for ELE. The way I can see it working (and final judgement will be for how it is revealed later) is that the warhorn provides a very niche group support role that provides stability, reflects, swiftness, and other group bonuses along with maybe a blast finisher.

I wanted sword because it would give us a more diverse option in terms of playstyle and not step on the toes (so to speak) of existing options.

I’m tired of arguing against people so I’mma just let woodenpotatoes do it in a clear and nonbiased way to get you all to realize why you’re wrong.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Shinzan.2908:

I won’t have an opinion about warhorn until we actually see the skills. One thing that is kind of a bummer is that an offhand means you’ll have to pair it with dagger or scepter though.

That’s the main problem that some of those post above seem unable to grasp. The warhorn would be fine IF we actually had good mainhand weapon, the fact is we really do not. Most of the mainhand weapons skills are trash, with scepter being super trash.

And mainhand dagger is trash because low cooldown burning, evasion fire burst, healing, blast finisher, good sustained damage and spike defense, and PbAoEs and a low CD immob and leap, clearly all of those things are all so terrible.

Sarcasm aside, mainhand dagger is an amazing weapon, and I’m a little bit shocked that people are doubting its usefulness at all..

Morwath.9817:

Abjured comp isn’t unstoppable with him.
Necro is amazing class as long as your team has edge over enemies, however Necro becomes worse when you’re equal with enemies and gets dead weight when you’re behind.

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIkJmb7PeyM
(oRNG wins vs Abjured 2:0 in Boston, prepatch and imho Necro was better prepatch than now)

Speaking broadly about this issue, more than just your video,

I’d argue that its better now. Cele is tanky. Its limited by kinda meh healing, but its tanky and has high sustained damage and pressure against condis.

Wells are pretty counterable. And the condi builds in the past.. well theyre too frail right now for the lack of condi pressure they’ve brought since all those nerfs in he past and present.

And in general I feel that rotations and teamwork are far more important than the class/build you play.. although necros are only really disadvantaged in that way because of poor mobility, meaning the rest of the team needs to get around point to point a bit faster, but a mobile necro would be OP as kitten, so yeah.

And about backpack as a mesmer, I like him as a player, but he, and all the other new mesmers out there are being carried by the braindead ease of the mantra build. You don’t even need to time your shatters when you can stun every 5 seconds.

^^ Ele portal rezzes are the best feeling ever, as are moaing rampages, liches, and MM necros.

Necrotize.2974:

Why not just wait to actually test it instead of discounting it so early? Every class is getting a new weapon and a completely new trait line, we have no idea how this could perform in a, hypothetically, completely new meta.

Because I was supporting the holy prophecized warhorn in the elementalist forums while stating things like, “you don’t even have to use the warhorn if you think its ugly you sword lover you, I mean chronomancers probably won’t use shields”!

And then a sardonic mesmer main decided to make a scene and say I’m crazy for thinking the shield isn’t that great, so I decided to make this thread to settle our argument outside of the irreleveant ele forums. He hasn’t come to post his rebuttal yet though, but my victory is all but assured.

Kodiak.3281:

nearlight.3064:

You can just walk out of the lava font….?

And besides meteor shower and sitting in lava font, the rest of staff eles kit has poor burst AoE damage, I think warhorn could supply powerful nuke damage in all attunements, just some would be more control or support oriented than others based on the attunement. And you’d also get access to high single target bursts from scepter or high sustained damage and PBAoEs from dagger too, so comparing staff to a potential role for an offhand is a little irrelevant in my opinion.

You can just walk out of most AOEs in the game and those that you can’t are not as powerful as the ones you can. Meteor Shower is slow and entirely random but you consider it as the “only real AOE nuke”? Your position just doesn’t make much sense.

As for the staff ele “kit” the rest of what you’re talking about clearly describes staff! Control oriented like Static Field, Frozen Ground or Unsteady Ground? Support Oriented like Geyser or Healing Rain? Do you really expect them to attach blasts of 4k nukes on top of healing everyone or snaring everyone to warhorn skills?

Want to talk about irrelevant lets talk about the Offhand Dagger. It does AOE burning ring and high burst Fire Grab. It does self defense Frost Aura and AOE Support Cleanse. It does Mobility with Ride the Lightning and AOE CC with Updraft. It does more AOE control with Earth Quake and strike damage with Churning Earth.

All these things…already exist…

Okay, good for you. So Ele is perfect and doesn’t need anything else. I agree. On your D/D build you can be the most OP thing in GW2 history. Do you think a sword would have honestly changed that? Mainhand dagger is a great weapon through and through. Elementalists are so great at everything that they don’t even know what they need from an elite spec, because thats a trick question.

They don’t need anything.

Nothing at all is needed to make the Ele better. The elite spec will open up a new playstyle, and I can’t describe that to you because no one knows how that will work yet.

I merely ascertain that the combination of AoE nuke+mainhand dagger skills could be powerful and awesome. It would be like combining the best things about staff and D/D in one build. That is my speculation, and thats all it is. Being able to think outside of the box is such a rare and refreshing talent these days..

Zypp.7921:

nearlight.3064:

Lost time with GS auto nets you perma slow, and I don’t think danger time is really worth it when dueling practically gives you permanent fury uptime anyway. I mean you could make a weird cele hybrid slow build and probably use it well, but danger time looks unnecessary for burst specs, and even if it did, it wouldn’t need shield at all to be functional.

Permaslow with gs is only if you keep autoattacking. If you poke with greatsword every time before bursting people will learn to react to that. With the phantasm you can make the slow and burst land simultaneously out of stealth. I don’t understand your comment about fury from dueling. With a berserker amulet there is no waste of crit chance (it’s still under 100% against slowed enemies with fury up). We don’t want a great damage boost because another trait line offers a similar great (stacking) damage boost? Chronomancer in its current form needs very little to be functional, I’m just looking to suit my build to my playstyle with the way I like to burst.

You can believe what you want to believe and play how you want, but if you look at the bigger picture as myself and Fay have, you’ll realize what you miss out overall by running shield.

Kodiak.3281:

Simply put none of it makes any kind of logical sense. As Neko pointed out our class is already in an amazing position as far as classes go. We already have many good roles in our particular game modes.

However introducing a new offhand weapon (regardless if it’s a horn or not) is tone deaf to the areas we actually can’t fulfill. Our offhands are already amazing. However after the Specialization changes, it leaves Dagger / Staff as the really only mainhand options so a new main hand would have been on point to fill the few gaps the Elementalist has.

Even if our Specialization is a dud that doesn’t mean the end of the Elementalist. Not sure I understand the quitting posts because it’s not like their already amazing character is getting less amazing. It just means we sit out this expansion as a class who gets a dud specialization which is naturally going to be disappointing to people who main an Elementalist.

I don’t think the mainhands are all that bad. Dagger has very high sustained damage, and literally every skill is useful (for pvp). Scepter has very high burst damage and some condi pressure potential, although niche, and only needs small fixes to DT (ground target plox), shatterstone, and some autoattacks to be a good weapon for a burst build.

I fail to see how a new mainhand would be all that radically different since the current ones are pretty versatile when you give it a chance and try things out. The only reason dagger OH is great is because of ring of fire and updraft are absolutely amazing. The rest of the skills are only nominally useful in specific certain situations and are limited by high cooldowns. The focus similarly has only swirling winds and the two earth skills that are truly amazing in my opinion, as everything else is mainly situational.