Guild Wars 2

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

The OP’s maturity level is so impressive.

/endthread

The irony in your statement makes me laugh.

You talk about maturity and yet cannot grasped the simple concept of opinions. Part of growing up is understanding that people will have a different opinion than yours. It isn’t the end of the world, if you like the war horn that’s cool, we don’t and we get to complain about. That’s why forums exist.

The point being, stop projecting your insecurities.

You’re wrong. Im saying that it’s immature to not buy something just because of one teaser image, when we know literally nothing about how the spec will work as a whole. I’m excited for the expansion and grateful for all the hard work the devs have put into it.

In my eyes it seems disrespectful to be so shortsighted.

Actually, a person can use whatever reason they can dream off to decide NOT to spend their money. The job of the company is to convince the consumer to buy their product.

It is not the customer’s job to care about the feelings of developer. They are not making guild wars 2 as a favor to me, they are making a PRODUCT to sell to ME. Now if the expansion was free, then maybe. The point being, they are not doing it for anybody’s benefit, they are doing it because they want my hard earned money or the money I am earning posting on this forum instead of doing work.

How the spec works in irrelevant, the issue here has been that the ele does not need an off hand, it needed a good main hand. Scepter doesn’t know WTF it is trying to be, dagger has its own problems.

Singularity a mechanic that works by forcing player to stick to once attunement isn’t going to make things better.

with that said, you could be right, but the magic 8 ball next to me says “it’s arena net, any dumb thing is possible.”

Eventually, the pain will be over, but for now I am going to QQ all the way to I get over it.

tl;dr

Arena net isn’t making the product for my benefit, they want my cash. We don’t have to be grateful, especially when they are kittening up. Well mainly the balance team is kittening up.

I appreciate the non ele balance team.

Maybe you need to take a break from the game and play something else if possible. I’ve realized in the past that disagreeing about balance (particularly with necro in previous patches) was really stressful and unfun, so I took a break from the game to play other stuff on the 3DS. I may disagree with your position on warhorn since I think MH dagger is great and scepter is weird but can work (and that the only reason the offhands dagger is strong is because of burning), but you’re entitled to your opinion, and I sincerely hope that you are able to move past this, even if it means leaving gw2 to do so.

There are two options here one for me and you.

option one.
I could stay and keep reminding Arena net at my displeasure for their terrible decisions. If a bunch of people could convince Arena net to change their business model from LS focused to expansion based. I am sure eventually arena net will at the very minimum realize that they really need to rework scepter to make it viable.

Also the reason why I play this game now is because I like the necromancer, it might be at the bottom now but at least the reaper looks a like a lot of fun.

Option 2:

You get over the fact that not everybody will agree with you and or blindly kiss Arena net’s bum. Don’t worry about me, worry about yourself. So what if someone doesn’t agree with your point of view? That is life.

Remember Arena net created this forum solely to attract disgruntle opinions. At the end of the day, we are both going to do whatever makes us happy.

Do you honestly think arenanet will care about your distaste and your feedback? Its only a vocal minority of players that are upset before they even give it a real chance.

Yes anet listens to feedback, but only in overwhelimingly resolute cases (ie with revenant weapon swapping, everyone wanted that). Your saltiness will amount to little more than drops of water in an infinite sea.

And I was just saying that taking a break from the game can be really helpful to your mindset. I was only trying to help you, but since you’ve met me with more sardonic internet rage, I will kindly withdraw from this argument, since nothing I can do will help you.

Kodiak.3281:

nearlight.3064:

Exactly. I feel like it will be some sort of AoE nuking weapon, which hasn’t been done by previous warhorns and is a powerful niche that OH dagger and focus haven’t fulfilled. Even staff only has one skill (meteor shower) that I’d consider an AoE nuke, its has sustained rather than burst AoE pressure, and of course that varies on attunement.

lol what? Yea screw that Lava Font that can crit for 4k a pop while you auto attack for 4k a pop while Meteor Shower simultaneously also can hit for 4-6k a pop.

Sure glad they might give Elementalists some AOEs. Gosh we’re so starved for AOEs as a class! I would now insert a list mockingly all the AOE’s we have as a class on every single weapon as well as the countless AOEs we have as in our Utilities but quite honestly I don’t have the time to recount almost literally every skill we have.

You can just walk out of the lava font….?

And besides meteor shower and sitting in lava font, the rest of staff eles kit has poor burst AoE damage, I think warhorn could supply powerful nuke damage in all attunements, just some would be more control or support oriented than others based on the attunement. And you’d also get access to high single target bursts from scepter or high sustained damage and PBAoEs from dagger too, so comparing staff to a potential role for an offhand is a little irrelevant in my opinion.

Retsuko.2035:

nearlight.3064:

Its because people can’t adapt very easily. When the idealized image in their mind falls apart, they can’t adapt to changes as easily as they should be able to.

Have to disagree.

First of all, the official GW2 forum has been known (to me at least) as a heaven for whiners. Only reason I come here is to get myself informed (which this forum most of the time fails to do) and if that won’t happen I’ll just troll since whiners are easy and ungrateful.

Anyways, reason I disagree is that not much changes has happened to the ele thus far besides some minor changes. The new specialization is a huge (optional) change that like for any class is a very welcome change that people were waiting for. The problem here lies with the fact that people had “expectations”. They were seeing their ele swinging a sword around already, and seeing the pretty skins for sword, I can imagine that the average and below PvE only bloke gets excited by that prospect.

Now their expectations got shattered when they see that ele won’t get a cool sword to wield… Instead they get a warhorn which they compare with the warhorn on the other classes right now without knowing what ele WH is going to be like. Some people are even trying to make up reasons for needing a sword… melee weapon LOL as if you can’t melee with a dagger or staff. I agree that warhorn skins aren’t as pretty as the sword skins, but we have no idea how the elite specialization is going to work with WH.

Also I wouldn’t compare the warhorn skills from ranger/warrior/necro with the warhorn from an elite specialization…

okay, but you’re not disagreeing with me that much. Everything you’ve said I’ve pretty much said in my post or in other posts about this topic in other threads. Eles got their hopes up from the sword datamines and couldn’t adapt beyond that.

Neko.9021:

nearlight.3064:

…

tl;dr- The Elementalist community can’t adapt to massive changes very well because they’ve never really had to. Other communities have similar problems but are more rational in their reasons

Finally someone says what I’ve been thinking. It’s true. Ele has the reverse problem of Rangers. Ele is a powerful class viable in all 3 game modes at the top tier (a big part of sPvP comps, run in multiples in PvE speedclear, and a staple in WvW GvG), and yet Eles remain constantly pessimistic and feel like they’re doing badly. Heck, lately, there’s a thread debating whether or not the Ele is in a “good place now” (spoiler: it’s the best class in the game overall given its high tier in all 3 game modes, so yes, it is in a good place). It’s absolutely crazy. Ele is extremely powerful but the common Ele seems to be under the delusion that ANet hates them or something.

Thanks for the support! And yeah, once you’ve played other classes you realize that Ele is just so amazing at everything if you play the right build, its just crazy frustrating that most eles don’t see this! Eles so great its hard to see what an elite spec could offer that it doesn’t have already

I’d say that ring of fire is the strongest skill in spvp right now due to the burning changes. Just lay it on a point and stack might while everyone around you starts to die. My only concern is that warhorn won’t be able to compete with this one skill, but it very well could since it will probably be nukedamage oriented in some way, but who knows! I’m just excited to see what it will offer.

Zypp.7921:

Hell yes. Shield phantasm: summon a phantasm that slows enemies and grants alacrity to allies. Chronomancer master trait danger time: Gain additional critical hit chance against slowed enemies: 30%.

The shield phantasm will give me the initial slow, the grandmaster trait that slows on every 3rd crit will keep it up. My burst will be stronger than ever.

Lost time with GS auto nets you perma slow, and I don’t think danger time is really worth it when dueling practically gives you permanent fury uptime anyway. I mean you could make a weird cele hybrid slow build and probably use it well, but danger time looks unnecessary for burst specs, and even if it did, it wouldn’t need shield at all to be functional.

Its because people can’t adapt very easily. When the idealized image in their mind falls apart, they can’t adapt to changes as easily as they should be able to.

As long as people adapt and use the tools available to them without writing them off due to prior convictions, anything is possible.

The elementalist community is probably the strangest on the forums. I multiclass and here’s what I’ve noticed.

The mesmer forum are generally happy and optimistic and communal, and they always have been. Even when mesmer was considered the worst class in all 3 game modes, they were still optimistic and willing to adapt no matter how bad things were, and many are now willing to accept ways in which their class can be shaved for balance. Many didn’t want a shield at first, but they’ve learned to not bemoan the idea, because they know that there is more to their elite spec than a shield, and it could be useful on certain builds. They’re willing to try out new things and are able to look at the big picture, while being able to adapt from their years as the gw2 underdogs.

The necromancer community has always been negative and people have been unwilling to adapt, such as by sticking to the old terrormancer spec that has been nerfed into oblivion, and have the constant mindset that the devs don’t understand their class and that they suck. This pessimism is very widespread in the Necro community, and so few are able to work with what they have to succeed. Reaper is polarizing in some ways to the necro community, (powerful chill, but nerfs to chilling darkness and movement speed) but they’re willing to give it a chance since RS has potential fixes for the current DS, and the GS, while slower than any other GS could have a powerful niche, and won’t be a requirement for use.

The engineer community has always been generally able to adapt well. As such, they’ve all pretty much been able to move past the old now unviable cele rifle builds to try other new things, whether it be a cele mightstacking elixer gun build, or the new, more viable condi and burst engi specs. They don’t feel too gloomy about being no longer meta.

The ranger community is terrible at adapting as well. Most haven’t moved beyond the one trick pony of pew pew builds to play condi specs at a really high level, even though it has potential. Most have a mindset in the romanticized notion of an archer archetype and they can’t grasp the idea that it truly sucks. They can’t adapt.

And finally the Elementalist community, the strangest one by far. Elementalist mains on this forum have an identity crisis that seems illogical from a multiclass perspective. Elementalists have great builds and niche builds in every game mode, to the point where some specs (cele D/D in pvp, glass staff in pve, cele staff in wvw) are considered the best in the game. But most elementalists don’t own up to their viability, and instead bemoan things like lack of build variety, reasonable balanced nerfs from the first year of the game (RtL) and are hpyocritically unwilling to try new things when they’re the ones complaining about lack of build variety. The reason they can’t adapt is because they have never really had to adapt. The ele has been playing mostly the same D/D water/arcane build for 3 years, even though there are other options (in pvp like cele staff or fresh air) that are plenty fun and viable but aren’t as perfect in their current states.

They got their hopes up with the datamined sword skills because they thought that it would make a mediguard type build possible for them, since fresh air scepter has some issues (scepter is the only valid complaint for elementalists in my opinion). They can’t adapt from the hopes and dreams they built up from that datamined info, even when more recent datamines contradicted the sword. I can guarantee right now that if that_shaman didn’t tell us every secret months to weeks before its announced the ele community wouldn’t have been so distraught over it. So I’d say the ele community is a more irrational version of the ranger community, they can’t adapt from the idealized notions in their minds and expectations.

tl;dr- The Elementalist community can’t adapt to massive changes very well because they’ve never really had to. Other communities have similar problems but are more rational in their reasons

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

The OP’s maturity level is so impressive.

/endthread

The irony in your statement makes me laugh.

You talk about maturity and yet cannot grasped the simple concept of opinions. Part of growing up is understanding that people will have a different opinion than yours. It isn’t the end of the world, if you like the war horn that’s cool, we don’t and we get to complain about. That’s why forums exist.

The point being, stop projecting your insecurities.

You’re wrong. Im saying that it’s immature to not buy something just because of one teaser image, when we know literally nothing about how the spec will work as a whole. I’m excited for the expansion and grateful for all the hard work the devs have put into it.

In my eyes it seems disrespectful to be so shortsighted.

Actually, a person can use whatever reason they can dream off to decide NOT to spend their money. The job of the company is to convince the consumer to buy their product.

It is not the customer’s job to care about the feelings of developer. They are not making guild wars 2 as a favor to me, they are making a PRODUCT to sell to ME. Now if the expansion was free, then maybe. The point being, they are not doing it for anybody’s benefit, they are doing it because they want my hard earned money or the money I am earning posting on this forum instead of doing work.

How the spec works in irrelevant, the issue here has been that the ele does not need an off hand, it needed a good main hand. Scepter doesn’t know WTF it is trying to be, dagger has its own problems.

Singularity a mechanic that works by forcing player to stick to once attunement isn’t going to make things better.

with that said, you could be right, but the magic 8 ball next to me says “it’s arena net, any dumb thing is possible.”

Eventually, the pain will be over, but for now I am going to QQ all the way to I get over it.

tl;dr

Arena net isn’t making the product for my benefit, they want my cash. We don’t have to be grateful, especially when they are kittening up. Well mainly the balance team is kittening up.

I appreciate the non ele balance team.

Maybe you need to take a break from the game and play something else if possible. I’ve realized in the past that disagreeing about balance (particularly with necro in previous patches) was really stressful and unfun, so I took a break from the game to play other stuff on the 3DS. I may disagree with your position on warhorn since I think MH dagger is great and scepter is weird but can work (and that the only reason the offhands dagger is strong is because of burning), but you’re entitled to your opinion, and I sincerely hope that you are able to move past this, even if it means leaving gw2 to do so.

Salamander.2504:

CodeHavoc.7926:

We already have shrouded removal. I think it’s fair Fitg doesn’t have a Immobile break as well since reaper can laugh those off as it is now.

Agreed. I’d rather get a second stack of stability (for 2 stacks) and/or an extra second of stability (for 4 seconds) on FitG.

This so much, 1 stack for 3 seconds is far too little.

Condition Necromancer is pretty bad in the current metagame for a number of reasons that I can’t list here. Basically its only niche is beating other condi specs 1v1, while dying to focus fire and having horrible non spike condi pressure in teamfights.

Cele necromancer however is a different beast, as it can still beat all condi specs 1v1 with transfers while bieng quite tanky and doing high phyiscal sustained damage in teamfights with boon corrupts. If you run mantra shatter cheese you don’t really ahve to fear this spec 1v1, if anything it’ll be a stalemate until he runs out of life force, but in general power mesmer is really strong against necromancer as a while.

Just don’t use mantra of distraction+CS and you’ll actually have to think instead of using mantras of cooldown to land all your attacks.

Due to a forum argument with another sardonic forum goer in a thread elementalist forum, I have decided to ask you guys will you use the chronomancer sheild off-hand in pvp builds when the expansion hits.

I am in the boat that shield will not be widely used with chronomancer. Here’s why.

Shatter Builds:

Crux of the Argument: Greatsword is a must on all direct damage builds, the GS gives great burst potential but little defensive skills. Therefore the supporting weaponset must give shatter mesmers an easier way to survive being pressured.

The options:
1. Staff- Staff gives a teleport that can be used to kite up to blink spots and away from melee burst (even when disabled), a high damage phantasm, and a pulsing field in chaos armor that provided RNG based AoE interrupt potential, very strong in stopping rezzes or stomps. Staff is practically a requirement on forest of nifhel, playing without a staff on that map is a huge disadvantage due to its abundant and useful phase retreat spots on each node.
2. Sword- Sword gives a decent cleaving auto to use if needed, an excellent damageing skill with evade frames in blured frenzy, and a decent immob skill in ileap. Sword is thought to be ideal on the battle of khylo since its phase retreat spots are much harder to use for the benefit they bring and their difficulty is dependent on which side of the map you’re on.
3. Torch- On a shatter build the torch phantasm is mainly there for shatter fodder, but group fury isn’t bad. The stealth skill is very useful though because it provides setup for GS bursts from stealth (great for 1v1s), lets you reposition, and evade target/focus fire in a teamfight. For these reasons I beleive that torch is the ideal offhand for a shatter build. A mesmer dies pretty fast in teamfights when focused and when its defensive cooldowns are up, and avoiding target with stealth is the best way to combat that fact.
4.-Shield- Phantasm provides small amount of group alacrity and slow on enemies, but seems to be a low damage phantasm, meaning its shatter fodder after the first attack. The first skill gives 2 phantasms and 2 blocks on a 30 seconds cooldown. I believe the blocks do little for survivability compared to stealth (I mean look at OH sword). The 5 skill is an AoE stun/quickness which looks like it gives powerful support in teamfights, but is far less useful in larger fights.

So based on this I believe that staff or sword/t will continue to be superior to sword/shield on burst specs. I do think shield will have some novel potential on support oriented builds (like helseth’s OP settler’s bunker build) and maybe even some condition-shatter based builds, (although for them torch will still be perhaps even more competitive for the burning).

So let me know what you think? Will you use shield, why or why not, and for what kind of build?

Zenith.7301:

Credentials worth nothing for the kind of individual who dismisses a weapon and phantasms he hasn’t even tested himself considering chronomancer has been unavailable to the public lol.

Like you know about how great it could be any better than I do? Like people know who you are any better than I do?

Every argument you make can be reflected at yourself. Meet me in the mesmer forums during recess, and we’ll settle this.

Edit: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PvP-Will-you-use-Shield/first#post5304908

Here is the discussion thread where we will settle this once and for all. I’m fine with being proven wrong, but we’ll have to see what the general mesmer community thinks.

zorokai.1486:

nearlight.3064:

zorokai.1486:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

skullfaerie.7203:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I mean, Chronomancer also got an offhand and the shield skills seem pretty good.

It’s not so much about getting an offhand weapon per se, it’s about said offhand being the warhorn.

Mesmer+Shield is just in a completely different league, in that it always had the potential to be good (imo anyways).

I’m just confused as to why precisely warhorn would be worse? We don’t know its skills? Ele could use it entirely differently from other profs? I don’t get why it’s inherently inferior?

Well for now – All Warhorn skills on All classes are pretty lack luster and do not seem very viable, apart from the shoutbow warrior using a WH.

For me Id say that the WH is so limited in what it can do (apply wind to WH) about it – call birds, blast finisher, buff, (all of these the ele already has with the standard set of skills – may be not the bird but they can already summon Elemental beings to fight for them) So what is it exactly adding to the class?

IMO they could have given the ele like the sword or a combat staff (even if they already have a ranged staff) that would have been more creative or inspiring. a WH feels kinda Meh.

Locust swarm on necromancer is an amazing skill, it’s probably the fastest form of life force generation the necromancer has in a teamfight.

Meanwhile the ranger warhorn gives group support in pve. The shoutbow warhorn trait was actually nerfed for being too strong.

So clearly you don’t play these other classes if you think their warhorn skills suck.

True I dont main A ranger or a Necro, but even I have noticed how bad the Warhorn skills are.

Sigh, yea great group support – still pretty useless, does it clean conditions? No.is it better than say the warriors one… No… also Pve, thats the easiest content in the whole game, hardly fair to judge a weapons viability because it does OK in pve. everything does OK in pve.

Necro on the otherhand – its again ok – all you do is blow on it (same old animations – not looking promising for the ele) – it only helps you so in theory your horn is busted if only you get effected (troll)- Id say the necro one comes close to the being ok like the warriors, i mean it does daze/interrupt apart from that, not much more.

My point still stands that MOST WARHORNs are pretty useless compared to their other available weapon choices. The WarHorn is stil llimited in what it can do , and animation wise what else can it do but get “blown into”? still a very Meh weapon to be given to any class.

You’ve clearly never watched top Necromancer gameplay, where they dote on how warhorn is by far the best offhand for power/minion/cele necro. This is because it has fast life force generation, CC and lets you get places faster. The other offhand choices for necromancer, especially focus, suck, really quite hard.

This is the age of ranged hammers and melee staffs and magical longbows and time traveling shields. You must be truly ignorant if you think that the ele warhorn is going to lack any flavor or uniqueness.

Exactly. I feel like it will be some sort of AoE nuking weapon, which hasn’t been done by previous warhorns and is a powerful niche that OH dagger and focus haven’t fulfilled. Even staff only has one skill (meteor shower) that I’d consider an AoE nuke, its has sustained rather than burst AoE pressure, and of course that varies on attunement.

If the fire skills of warhorn have some decent burn application or a fire field in between in power between ring of fire (probably the eles best skill right now) and flamewall, then celestial will still be viable on it, since you’d still get the sustain and boonspam from water/arcane and tempest could give it more burst damage potential. Even with cele stats, burst damage is still possible, such as with burning speed and fire grab, or crazy cele rifle intelligence sigil combos from engi in the past.

If it doesn’t have burning, then it’ll probably be better for a glassier set up, but we’ll have to see. If the warhorn is meant to be a glassy weapon, than it’s nuke skills will have to be really really powerful, and the ulities would have to give it something akin to stealth/ports/blocks that are useful enough to allow for decen survivability, which is the current downfall of fresh air builds, that otherwise do have the damage to be compete, just not other tools to seal the deal.

Anyway, speculation aside, I am thrilled to see what arenanet has decided for the elite spec, as their creativity has been impressive as of late!

PlatinumMember.5274:

nearlight.3064:

The OP’s maturity level is so impressive.

/endthread

The irony in your statement makes me laugh.

You talk about maturity and yet cannot grasped the simple concept of opinions. Part of growing up is understanding that people will have a different opinion than yours. It isn’t the end of the world, if you like the war horn that’s cool, we don’t and we get to complain about. That’s why forums exist.

The point being, stop projecting your insecurities.

You’re wrong. Im saying that it’s immature to not buy something just because of one teaser image, when we know literally nothing about how the spec will work as a whole. I’m excited for the expansion and grateful for all the hard work the devs have put into it.

In my eyes it seems disrespectful to be so shortsighted.

The OP’s maturity level is so impressive.

/endthread

Ross Biddle.2367:

nearlight.3064:

Ross Biddle.2367:

nearlight.3064:

Morwath.9817:

@nearlight.3064
Why would you care if RandomNobody.7685 calls you scrub in internet? His opinions means nothing, since it’s only his opinion. Just ignore those guys, ‘discussing’ with them is pointless.

Because my pride is my biggest weakness. Thats basically it. But you’re right, I have nothing to prove to him or anybody else.

I’m right and their wrong, and the opinions of many top veteran pvp mesmers back up my point.

If opinions mean nothing the both of these opinions defending yourself, and directing to the opinions of “top veteran pvp mesmers” are also equally meaningless. Either opinions can obtain a measure of weight and meaning or they can’t. You can’t have it both ways :/

You rudely insulted me as a player just because I believe the mantra builds are too cheesy. And go to any streamer and they’ll tell you the same thing. I’m just defending my credibility as a player.

I was discussing game philosophy and disagreeing with your assessment. If you took offense that’s on you. I wasn’t rude, I didn’t call you any bad names. If your credibility as a player was in jeopardy it wasn’t because I was drawing any attention to it.

Also I’m not sure how streaming is some sort of credential. I know plenty of great players who stream/record, I know plenty that don’t, and they differ in the opinion you’ve presented. Playing to win is a long standing philosophy many competitive gamers adhere to and expound, either because they’re read it or adopted it naturally as a faucet of reality. You should give the entire book a read, it’s free and would do you good.

Well to clarify, I meant streamers that are top pvp players who have placed well in many tournaments.

I just don’t like being called a scrub okay. Thats all.

Why is this pessimistic drivel even here? This isn’t the necromancer forums, don’t try to cast epidemic on your saltiness.

Azure.8670:

Warhorn on necro is good. It’s the dagger part that isn’t.

Well the autoattack chain and the immob are good.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Relentless_Pursuit

Add in a dose of hoelbrak/melandru runes (or corrupters ferver) and tadah, no immob for you.

ronpierce.2760:

Gerrark.9870:

The only thing I have to say is this: has it been 100% confirmed that the warhorn will be an offhand weapon? Sure it’s likely, but I haven’t seen anything saying outright that it is.

It’s in their offhand in the art, if that counts for anything to you…

What if that girl in the art was left handed? It’s a possibility..

To be fair dagger warhorn necro is sexy awesome as kitten you vile pessimist.

zapv.8051:

I don’t think this would happen simply cause they don’t want us to have that kind of speed. If they just made this give perma swiftness, and then made dark path a non-projectile teleport it would be a nice buff.

Apparently dark path was a ground target teleport in the beta, but it was too stronk.

Also the reaper RS 2 skill is a 600 range leap, and from playing mesmer with about face phase retreats, I know that a low cooldown 600 range teleport can make you move quite a bit faster, albeit at the cost of life force.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Stark.1350:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Stark.1350:

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but it’s not fact.

It is, actually, given how ArenaNet handled both spirit rangers and turret engineers when they dominated in PvP.

Yeah? Then explain minionmancer necros, tiger. Who are very viable right now.

MM necros are no where near as strong as what turret engineers and spirit rangers were.

True, but theyre far stronger now than the current deplorable states of those builds.

Also the datamined suggest drones for the engineer elite spec which look a lot like what minions could be like hehehe.

Ross Biddle.2367:

nearlight.3064:

Morwath.9817:

@nearlight.3064
Why would you care if RandomNobody.7685 calls you scrub in internet? His opinions means nothing, since it’s only his opinion. Just ignore those guys, ‘discussing’ with them is pointless.

Because my pride is my biggest weakness. Thats basically it. But you’re right, I have nothing to prove to him or anybody else.

I’m right and their wrong, and the opinions of many top veteran pvp mesmers back up my point.

If opinions mean nothing the both of these opinions defending yourself, and directing to the opinions of “top veteran pvp mesmers” are also equally meaningless. Either opinions can obtain a measure of weight and meaning or they can’t. You can’t have it both ways :/

You rudely insulted me as a player just because I beleive the mantra builds are too cheesy. And go to any streamer and they’ll tell you the same thing. I’m just defending my credibility as a player.

Yeah Chaos, its the best necro build in years. It has tons of mightstacking, boon corruption, weakness, and is naturally tanky.

It still doesn’t have much group support but its beastly in 1v1 and has very high sustained damage.

blitzkrieg.2451:

Daishi.6027:

A:
Ele
Mes
Guard
Thief

B:
Warrior
Engie
Ranger

C:
Necro.

This being said I feel the gap between tiers are a lot closer than the segregation between tiers of previous metas. Everything regardless of spec has at least somewhat of a chance, and no major builds are 100% pushed out by either the nature of the meta or a hard counter..

So maybe A-, B, and C+?

Necro under ranger? Top team in NA carries a necro and necros with cele signets absolutely much more useful (even power necro is lol) in teams than a ranger ever will be.

Please, ranger is definitely at the bottom of the tier list right now , no matter what list you make.

I’d go as far to say that even MM necro is more useful right now than a ranger, unless its Eurantien.

Condi necro though.. its so messed up right now that its best to pretend it doesn’t exist.

Necro is easily better than engi and ranger in their current deplorable states.

Okay fine you win, instead of worrying about arguing with you I’ll go out with necromancer in pvp and I’ll be an asset to my team every kitten time.

meow one twenty.4376:

nearlight.3064:

nekretaal.6485:

Not even close. The Necromancer has trouble with

(1) anybody on any class that can kite
(2) shatter mesmers
(3) power Rangers
(4) Anybody on any class with stealth or that can reset fights
(5) Hammer Warriors, & everybody else with a lot of CC

That’s basically everybody but engineers.

I also find that the raw amount of conditions that condispecs can put out, quickly overrides condition transfers.

If you have enough life force you can win against all of those. A ranger can’t kite you without giving up the point, and on most maps you can LoS them without giving up the point 1v1. Thieves only win if they’re really good and can reset fights, but they shouldnt have enough time to bring you down in a 1v1 when your team is properly rotating. Mesmer’s are tough but you can AoE down the clones and pressure them hard.

And you definetly have enough condi transfers to beat condi classes 1v1, since there are no condi classes with good condi output that have immense amounts of condi clear. If you can kill a trap ranger or a PU mesmer or a burn guard as a necromancer, you’re just doing it wrong.

Getting a point and waiting for team rotations are not reasons why a class is better at 1v1 than another class. It looks like you confused CC with condi for some reason, and relying on, “enough Life Force,” as an argument means that the outcome of a fight is predetermined by your amount of Life Force prior to the fight.

Well yeah it kind of is. Thats why you don’t go in to 1v1s with no life force unless its something like a warrior where locust swarm and SA will build it very fast.

Honestly just stop complaining about necromancer, all you pessimists are giving me anxiety. Its a strong class if you put the time into learning it really well.

In fact, everyone moaning about how kittenty they think our class is, is the reason everyone thinks that. Try being more positive and you’ll realize that the necro is a great class. And finally, rotations in pvp mean so much more than the viability of the build you can play. Nos was able to win while playing MM necro and helseth was able to destroy salt playing a settlers bunker mesmer. 1v1 viability is also secondary to ROTATIONS/

tl;dr Necro is great, pessimism sucks. Rotations> everything else in conquest.

Ryld.1340:

Velimere.7685:

Ryld.1340:

Velimere.7685:

Cynz.9437:

The devs for necro/thief try to balance game while devs for mes/ele are only interested in insane power creep by the looks of it.

Maybe you can enlighten me as I seem to have missed the part where Elementalist received power-creep buffs that weren’t global changes.

There are two major power creep buffs.

1) You no longer have to use a Major for Elemental Attunement, freeing up a slot and allowing for Final Shield or Contingency as well as an overall reduced cooldown for Attunements.

2)Elementalist feels like it received more benefits out of the new three Grandmaster than some other classes. Before, it always felt that I was just two points off from a “perfect” build. And now I can have that.

1. Having Elemental Contingency instead of Elemental Attunement as the minor master trait wouldn’t change anything.
2. The major grandmaster trait Blinding Ashes on top of Evasive Arcana and Cleansing Water is nothing to write home about when Mesmers have the superior major master trait Blinding Dissipation.

On first point: That’s true, but it’s much better than before when he had a nerfed Arcane Precision. It doesn’t matter if Contingency or Attunement is in the Minor Slot now, it’s still a major buff compared to before.

That is a Mesmer issue. Fire is an over-all better line now as well and an actual choice. Sunspot is a lot better of a minor and the extra power bonus is much more useful than Flame Barrier. Ele’s got a lot of love last patch. I only play Ele, so I know how much of a difference it is to be able to get Diamond Skin AND Cleansing Waters while still having Evasive Arcana.

Diamond skin is useless. Stone heart is great for rezzes and overall being tanky, but I feel that fire is better unless you have to be the primary tanky person for you team.

Morwath.9817:

@nearlight.3064
Why would you care if RandomNobody.7685 calls you scrub in internet? His opinions means nothing, since it’s only his opinion. Just ignore those guys, ‘discussing’ with them is pointless.

Because my pride is my biggest weakness. Thats basically it. But you’re right, I have nothing to prove to him or anybody else.

I’m right and their wrong, and the opinions of many top veteran pvp mesmers back up my point.

I’m not a kittening scrub. I’m a very experienced mesmer who played during the dark days before a month ago. I owned without the mantras back then, and I continue to own without them now, while level 2 newly created mesmers look up the mantra shatter build on metabattle, and smash their face on to their keyboard, licking the mouse for good measure and own because the combination of the mantra with CS means they don’t have to juke or bait cooldowns/dodges to land a burst.

I think I’m correct to be kittened about this, since it makes mesmer too easy for bad players.

nekretaal.6485:

Not even close. The Necromancer has trouble with

(1) anybody on any class that can kite
(2) shatter mesmers
(3) power Rangers
(4) Anybody on any class with stealth or that can reset fights
(5) Hammer Warriors, & everybody else with a lot of CC

That’s basically everybody but engineers.

I also find that the raw amount of conditions that condispecs can put out, quickly overrides condition transfers.

If you have enough life force you can win against all of those. A ranger can’t kite you without giving up the point, and on most maps you can LoS them without giving up the point 1v1. Thieves only win if they’re really good and can reset fights, but they shouldnt have enough time to bring you down in a 1v1 when your team is properly rotating. Mesmer’s are tough but you can AoE down the clones and pressure them hard.

And you definetly have enough condi transfers to beat condi classes 1v1, since there are no condi classes with good condi output that have immense amounts of condi clear. If you can kill a trap ranger or a PU mesmer or a burn guard as a necromancer, you’re just doing it wrong.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

nearlight.3064:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Tristan.5678:

Nice topic guess this is the resson Necro are not in any meta not in Pve nor PVP .. we are just too good for meta that why we get instantly kicked from every where ..

Read again. Necromancer and Ranger currently feel like the only balanced professions. Everyone else is over the top, though, which means N/R can’t compete.

I’d also add engineer to the mix. Sure cele rifle was OP in the previous meta, but trait changes prevent it from being able to have high physical damage, condi pressure, and sustain all in one build.

And condis and burst damage eat it alive.

Now power engi builds are more popular, and in the case of marauder engi… you need to be amazing to even survive since a block, stealth, and two invulns won’t be enough to save you from a mesmer.

So yeah the non meta pvp classes are in fact the only ones with actual exploitable weaknesses, even though they are strong at many things in their own right, thus being balanced.

Yeah, I forgot engie. I’m not as familiar with them post-patch.

Trust me, even just trying them out will only make you feel frustrated and dispaointed compared to non condi necromancer.

zorokai.1486:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

skullfaerie.7203:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I mean, Chronomancer also got an offhand and the shield skills seem pretty good.

It’s not so much about getting an offhand weapon per se, it’s about said offhand being the warhorn.

Mesmer+Shield is just in a completely different league, in that it always had the potential to be good (imo anyways).

I’m just confused as to why precisely warhorn would be worse? We don’t know its skills? Ele could use it entirely differently from other profs? I don’t get why it’s inherently inferior?

Well for now – All Warhorn skills on All classes are pretty lack luster and do not seem very viable, apart from the shoutbow warrior using a WH.

For me Id say that the WH is so limited in what it can do (apply wind to WH) about it – call birds, blast finisher, buff, (all of these the ele already has with the standard set of skills – may be not the bird but they can already summon Elemental beings to fight for them) So what is it exactly adding to the class?

IMO they could have given the ele like the sword or a combat staff (even if they already have a ranged staff) that would have been more creative or inspiring. a WH feels kinda Meh.

Locust swarm on necromancer is an amazing skill, it’s probably the fastest form of life force generation the necromancer has in a teamfight.

Meanwhile the ranger warhorn gives group support in pve. The shoutbow warhorn trait was actually nerfed for being too strong.

So clearly you don’t play these other classes if you think their warhorn skills suck.

My howler and voluptuous Norn elementalist are ready.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Tristan.5678:

Nice topic guess this is the resson Necro are not in any meta not in Pve nor PVP .. we are just too good for meta that why we get instantly kicked from every where ..

Read again. Necromancer and Ranger currently feel like the only balanced professions. Everyone else is over the top, though, which means N/R can’t compete.

I’d also add engineer to the mix. Sure cele rifle was OP in the previous meta, but trait changes prevent it from being able to have high physical damage, condi pressure, and sustain all in one build.

And condis and burst damage eat it alive.

Now power engi builds are more popular, and in the case of marauder engi… you need to be amazing to even survive since a block, stealth, and two invulns won’t be enough to save you from a mesmer.

So yeah the non meta pvp classes are in fact the only ones with actual exploitable weaknesses, even though they are strong at many things in their own right, thus being balanced.

Morwath.9817:

Ross Biddle.2367:

nearlight.3064:

Mesmer is really good right now with several viable builds. Take domination, dueling, and a greatsword and you’re all set, the last trait line is just for either some extra support/sustain/survivability. The condi shatter builds are also pretty decent with carrion too. Don’t play the faceroll mantra builds though, it’ll keep you from getting better since the stunlock mantra won’t teach you how to shatter at the right time and it’ll probably get nerfed anyway. Playing mantras would just make it harder for you to learn how to be a good mesmer.

Exactly, the mantra build makes landing your shatters way too easy, and its the most likely candidate to get nerfed in the mesmer’s current kit. Play PU zerk, and it will teach you proper gameplay and burst that doesn’t involve instantcast stuns that require twitch relfexes and dumb luck to avoid.

“A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.”

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Play to win. Use everything at your disposal. Be a truly good gamer.

This goes for every class, in every game, for all time.

Makes me wonder, if people read before they respond.
Guy said to don’t play with Mantras because they make it ‘too easy’, and due to that it’s harder to learn how to play Mesmer properly. While learning playing certain profession you always should avoid ‘faceroll’ mechanics at beginning, which may be nefed soon and pick them once you ‘l2p’…

If you get used to something thats ‘too easy/faceroll’ without learning how to play without it… and it will be nerfed soon, you will be unable to play your profession properly.

Exactly, the mantra makes it so you can always land your shatter. It straightup carries bad players that don’t know how to time their bursts without it up.

Mirror blade is unblockable, meaning they’ll save that hard hitting skill for when your gear shield is up.

nekretaal.6485:

Silv.9207:

Necromancer have one of the hardest F1 skill to balance.
If yo start a fight with LF full, you deal high damage, your survavibility is very high and when you end the LF you start with your health, fighting an recharging the LF, obtaining another time in DS.
That’s not easy to fight.

If you start with no LF you’re easy to kill, you have to charge your LF before go in DS and that make you in trouble from the start of the match.

Frequently you’re witl more or less no LF or with more or less full LF.
If ANet give you immunity he make you really OP when you have a full LF bar. But if they don’t give you immunity they make you “defenceless” if you have no LF.

If you want a immunity skill, they have to cut down your amount of LF, granting you problems when you go in DS, with big problems with all the builds that work entirely on DS (like in www and frequently in spvp).

Necromancer is a very hard thing to balance. Warrior can be modiefied how fast he build adrenaline or the damage he do with F1 skills. Thef F1 and stealth can be modified easy. Guardian hano not so much to change but if it’s too powerfull he can be changed easy. Necromancer isn’t so easy to manage.

If the necromancer has no scaling defense or useful support for a team fight, it should be the strongest pure fighter, able to 1v1 anybody.

It is arguably the strongest 1v1 class. This is because it hardcounters dedicated condi specs, which are very common 1v1 specs and often have poor condi removal if they aren’t necros themselves.

This is also because life force lets you shift 1v1s in your favor. Going into a 1v1 with a lot of life force will usually win you that 1v1.

In my opinion the only things that compete with cele necro at being the best 1v1 spec are cele D/D ele and shatter mesmer (but only because the burst is overthe top and mantras cheese it up). A very well played theif can compete as well, but they have to be in the top 1% of theives or they’re just food.

MrSilver.5269:

Question: do we know whether we will be required to use warhorn in the specialization, or if our other weapon sets are available?

If we do know what’s the answer?

THANKS!

You will not be required to use warhorn if you spec into tempest. The old weapons will be available for use in that traitline. You cannot however use warhorn without the tempest line. Also there may be a trait in the tempest line that boosts warhorn in some way, so obviously don’t take that if you don’t plan to use warhorn.

Mesmer is really good right now with several viable builds. Take domination, dueling, and a greatsword and you’re all set, the last trait line is just for either some extra support/sustain/survivability. The condi shatter builds are also pretty decent with carrion too. Don’t play the faceroll mantra builds though, it’ll keep you from getting better since the stunlock mantra won’t teach you how to shatter at the right time and it’ll probably get nerfed anyway. Playing mantras would just make it harder for you to learn how to be a good mesmer.

Elementalist is another very good class. The best builds are sustain based builds either cele D/D (fire OR earth, then water/arc) or cele staff (earth water arc). You provide alot of sustain, can hold points fairly well, and support your allies while dealing pretty high damage. Right now the burn damage from ring of fire and dreakes breath is really strong and fire traits give you tons of might.

Ranger, probably the worst class in pvp atm but its not terrible. The power longbow builds require expert posititoning, kiting, and knowing when and how to use the GS. Basically if you get focused, run away, its the only way to survive. Power ranger is also map dependent. It sucks on forest of nifhel, but its great on legacy of the foefire. The condi builds (either trap or survival) are excellent in 1v1s due to condis being strong there, but signet necro builds will end you and make your life useless in pvp. The build is strong in smaller fights, but it can be focus fired very easily in teamfights.

I hope this info helps.

Drayos.8759:

nearlight.3064:

1. Elementalists are like the best class in the game, so stop complaining. It’s so so horrible that you can’t do anything in pvp without water and arcane, all that sustain must get so boring compared to playing necromancer and being hammer trained time and time again.

2. We don’t know what the warhorn or elite spec will do at all, so complaining about a weapon is foolish when you have little more than a speculative guess about what it will do.

3. You can spec into tempest without using the warhorn, after all it could offer great things for D/D ele in terms of new utilities. Honestly most mesmers that spec into chronomancer will take torch over shield, and I can guarantee that. Meanwhile the necro GS is so slow that it won’t be a given take on many pvp builds with all t he blind spam right now.

4. There are tons of great warhorn skins available if you’re able to drop the coin on black lion skin. I have howler so it’s not my concern, but there are plenty of other warhorn skins that would go awesome with my Ele like the tempest warhorn or the ley line warhorn (I have all the leyline Ele weapons).

1) I doubt u can say that, currently the burst is just simply ruling everything, Yeah elementalist can survive.. but only through so much eventually they will just be out bursted and die like the rest and due to ur tankyness u’ll just get focus’d harder

Rampage is OP as hell so warriors currently can carry themselves through fights wiuth that, and Disrupt Mantra Mesmers currently do also cause alot of problems.. thats without the mindless thief stacking that will trainwreck u with HS Spams, so no i dont think any proffessions “clearly the best proffession”

but no they’re in a strong place right now and i feel WH should be given atleast a chance.

P.S no all warhorns look crap, Warhorn as a weapon is cosmetically crap…. its a Horn…. Horns dont look good in a Weapon slot… true story, but either way looking past that im sure there will be positives in this.

My point is that Elementalists have been meta in every game mode in the game for a long time, so complaining about being underpowered is just bizarre. Nearly every pvp team in top level pvp runs at least 1 ele, and many run 2.

And not to dote on mesmer too much, but I think a nerf to the mantra lock is likely. The rest of their burst builds are pretty balanced, but the mantras (of distraction with confounding suggestions) are just carrying bad players right now.

Zenith.7301:

nearlight.3064:

1. Elementalists are like the best class in the game, so stop complaining. It’s so so horrible that you can’t do anything in pvp without water and arcane, all that sustain must get so boring compared to playing necromancer and being hammer trained time and time again.

2. We don’t know what the warhorn or elite spec will do at all, so complaining about a weapon is foolish when you have little more than a speculative guess about what it will do.

3. You can spec into tempest without using the warhorn, after all it could offer great things for D/D ele in terms of new utilities. Honestly most mesmers that spec into chronomancer will take torch over shield, and I can guarantee that. Meanwhile the necro GS is so slow that it won’t be a given take on many pvp builds with all t he blind spam right now.

4. There are tons of great warhorn skins available if you’re able to drop the coin on black lion skin. I have howler so it’s not my concern, but there are plenty of other warhorn skins that would go awesome with my Ele like the tempest warhorn or the ley line warhorn (I have all the leyline Ele weapons).

In what world will a mesmer take torch over shield? You think a stealth skill on a 24-30 sec cd on a weapon with a terrible phantasm is gonna override a weapon that can generate 2 phantasms with one skill, phantasms that cleave, and has an aoe stun not to mention it’s the one weapon with alacrity granting capacity?

What are you smoking?

Do you even play mesmer in pvp? I remember most of your posts are pve posts, and I don’t really care about that anymore. The pledge is an amazing tool for setting up bursts, disengaging, and avoiding being targeted. Glass Mesmer specs die incredibly fast to focus fire in teamfights once their defensive cooldowns have been blown. The torch gives them the best way to avoid that focus fire in a teamfight among its other uses.

The shield has potential teamfight utility as well I do admit, but the 2 blocks it gives do very little for your survivability compared to the stealth. The phantasms are irrelevant in pvp, as they’re basically just shatter fodder and neither of them are high DPS phantasms in power builds to begin with. I see its potential, but I honestly feel that stealth works better, and most of the top mesmer players I know agree with me. Shatter mesmers will still run Greatsword and either staff or sword/torch depending on map and team composition. Shield will probably work most on niche support based specs rather than damage oriented ones.

Now this is the Ele forums, so I think we should get back to focusing on Eles, because you thinking I’m wrong because I know more about mesmer in pvp than you, is a point of discussion that doesn’t belong here.

1. Elementalists are like the best class in the game, so stop complaining. It’s so so horrible that you can’t do anything in pvp without water and arcane, all that sustain must get so boring compared to playing necromancer and being hammer trained time and time again.

2. We don’t know what the warhorn or elite spec will do at all, so complaining about a weapon is foolish when you have little more than a speculative guess about what it will do.

3. You can spec into tempest without using the warhorn, after all it could offer great things for D/D ele in terms of new utilities. Honestly most mesmers that spec into chronomancer will take torch over shield, and I can guarantee that. Meanwhile the necro GS is so slow that it won’t be a given take on many pvp builds with all t he blind spam right now.

4. There are tons of great warhorn skins available if you’re able to drop the coin on black lion skin. I have howler so it’s not my concern, but there are plenty of other warhorn skins that would go awesome with my Ele like the tempest warhorn or the ley line warhorn (I have all the leyline Ele weapons).

As a proud owner of Howler and the fact that my Ele, who is my most used alt class is a voluptuous Norn, I couldn’t be happier about tempest getting warhorn confirmed!

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFVAOvvMtoc

Ignore the elements and the skills which can (and can’t) be used for a given scenario, the precedent has been set here. I’m sure engi’s wouldn’t mind a weapon swap ability either.

Well for Engi, unless they’re cele pistols and rifle have absolutely 0 synergy with eachother so there would be absolutely no point to weaponswap, especially when they have kits they can instantly change into. Honestly, for ele, its already so OP you don’t need kittening weaponswap when you already have 20 skills.

Honestly complaints from ele mains are like complaints from the spoiled children that get everything they ever want.

Well some things have to happen. I’m tired of mantras carrying kittenty mesmers that don’t know the real struggle of landing shatters without instant stunlock.

Can we do multiple grades of these? Since I could easily rate all of the Necro/Mes builds with this scale.

Anyway for now I’ll do Celestial Signet Necromancer, the current “best” necro build to be discovered.

Physical DPS A- -> Very good high single target damage due to deathshroud/dagger autos and great might stacking, but isn’t very bursty. It takes some time to build might (siphoned power below 50% health procs, so it takes a bit of time before 3.5 K DS autos start happening).
Condi DPS – B -->No burning, but decent condi damage with AoE bleed, poison, and torment. No burst condi application, but special mention for tons of boon corruption and condition transfers, which make up the crux of its condi pressure.
Control – B+ —> 2 sources of fear on a low CD and an AoE warhorn daze that are good for interrupting stomps and rezzes and securing kills, but it can’t lock down a target by itself. Very high weakness uptime lets it mitigate physical damage and remove the amount of dodges.
Mobility – D -->You have movement speed from warhorn and speed signet, but thats it, no teleports or leaps.
Disengagement – D+ —>Cele necro relies on sheer tankiness from deathshroud and plague alone to disengage, meaning that it can’t do that very easily, but its better than any class whos movement/stealth/defensive cooldowns are all blown due to the tankiness, but this is the true weakness of any necro build.
Sustain vs. Physical – A- —> Cele stats make deathshroud very tanky and high weakness uptime from crits and entering DS in melee range are very effective at reducing phyiscial damage. Additionally the build has two sources of spectral armor (6 seconds of protection+life force regen) that increase physical sustain drastically. It is however limited by poor healing from the signets lack of a per target ICD.
Sustain vs. Condi- A+++ —> Cele necromancer can and should beat any condition build hands down, simply because 3 condi transfers and 45Kish health are enough to outlast any condis, and the transfers wreck most other condi build that generally have poor condi removal (such as rabid engi or trap ranger). This class has probably the most sustain vs. condis out of any in the game.
Team Support Synergy – B- —> Necro is a very selfish class. Our only real support in this build is ripping conditions off of allies a bit with plague signet, rezzing/stomping with plague and deathshroud, and boon conversions, which help negate enemy might/protection stacking etc.
Effectiveness as a Primary Engager – C --> No life force at the beginning of match means burst at the start can end you, but soul marks, locust swarm and early spectral armor use help remedy that, but engaging becomes much easier later on in the matches.
Effectiveness as a Point Holder/Bunker – B —> Decent at holding a point due to sheer tankiness alone, but held back by lack of stability and poor healing with the signet heal.
Effectiveness as a Peeler +1’er – C --> Mainly due to poor mobility. Cele necro can turn fights when it enters, it just can’t get to them as fast as a teef or mes.

Overall, I’d say the build is wonderful, and far far better than the condi necro build, which is on life support. Its the first non-minion build on necromancer to feel truly hard to kill, and it has excellent sustained damage and great 1v1 potential to boot, in addition to its team fight damage, boon corrupt utilitity, and tankiness.

Overall I’d have to give it a B+, since it really can do many amazing things in pvp for a team, but its held back by poor mobility, ability to disengage, and kitten like no ally healing in DS.