Guild Wars 2

@liefbread
golf clap

Pretty much nails it spot on.

I really hope that those new weapons come soon, if they do at all.

Meadfreek.6789:

raahk.2786:

Meadfreek.6789:

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

I really like the idea of a rifle for Thief. Like a sniper archetype (since sniper are kinda stealthy anyways). That way they wouldn’t have to rely on stealth as much.

Yeah, it’s one of the few things I’ve wanted in this game since launch. Having that 1200 range would make a great difference, but I’d still like to see other weaponsets buffed if they’re going to continue to nerf the only reliable ones.
Or make it so D/P P/D do more then just bleed, since that’s really the only condition thieves are capable of applying consistently.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

As much as I don’t agree with all of your posts regarding the stealth counter, I agree very much with thieves getting a 1200 range weapon. Right now, IIRC, thieves are the only class that has no real access to that range. And that is a shame.

Yeah, guess I overreacted a bit since they’re effectively nerfing my favorite class into the ground while continuing to buff their pet class (that hasn’t received a much needed nerf since launch iirc). I like that other guy’s idea about getting some compensation in some other builds, because honestly most of our grandmaster traits outside the two in critical arts and the one in shadow arts are completely pointless, but having a rifle or something to get that 1200 range would be a nice change.

Then again, they’d probably just nerf that too, since thief is probably the most complained about class, especially by people that only play world versus world and not Spvp, where a thief is truly being shafted right now.

Meadfreek.6789:

More wishes:

Warhorn for the Guardian (Point-Blank AoE heals/condition removal, buffs/conditions for enemies).

Longer range for the staff #1 skill for the guardian (double it!)

More ranged options for the guardian.

They did state that they were adding more weapons to different professions, and in one interview they stated that they wished for every class to have access to every weapon, and also that they wanted to be able to add a few new ones to each class before the end of the year, but I doubt the October update will include that and I really doubt that they’ll do it at all.

I’d really love to have thief rifle so we have a form of range that we can use to do more then just kite with.

This isn’t something that has to do with my connection, or my computer, as my connectivity is perfect and my computer is a gaming rig, but as I’ve noticed recently there’s a large amount of lag effecting Spvp, especially on the what’s considered the worst map, raid on the capricorn, but it is effecting all areas of spvp when previously I would be experiencing no lag, or skill delays.

Rene.4085:

tested Superior Runes of Speed this morning and it is still NOWHERE close to a person with an actual 25% run speed

I have to assume that Anet has been aware of this issue since launch… because these runes have been broken that long. And yes, they have sent a representative here to say “don’t worry folks, we are aware of this issue” and yet they still do not bother to fix this issue. This leads me to believe they really don’t care at all about this issue.

What else should I conclude based upon their actions?

You pretty much summarized it completely. A large majority of runes 6th bonus haven’t been working for about two months, and they still have yet to do anything about it.

tigirius.9014:

KarlusDavius.1024:

Fade.7658:

This thread has essentially become a forum for suggestions on how to nerf thieves into the ground.

+1

+1 that’s not what’s needed I agree. Thieves are tricksters but they are nowhere near invulnerable.

+1

Too bad all the balance team cares about is buffing the warrior further, since it’s their pet class.
I’d love to have some bug fixes that have existed since launch on some of my thief’s skills, at least, or maybe not be forced to go into D/D every time since condition damage with a thief is completely pointless and S/D is getting nerfed, yet again, while warrior has free reign to have the highest health regen on a passive signet while still doing more damage than any other class.

darkace.8925:

raahk.2786:

Oh good, more people insulting my skill level while making assumptions. It was a hypothetical situation.

This is the last time I’m going to respond to you, because even though you’re dead wrong, you’ve convinced yourself you’re right and we’re all wasting our time trying to show you why you’re wrong.

raahk.2786:

You’re low on health, so you hide in shadows to stealth, heal, and get away from the multitude of people that are nearby. Instead, you’re met with the revealed mechanic and despite using dodges you’re still left with multiple conditions and downed instantly.

You just proved why you’re wrong on this subject. Why should thief, and ONLY thief, have the ability to engage a “multitude of people” with impunity because of stealth? EVERY other class in the the game – every last one of them – dies if they bite off more than they chew. But thief can stealth in, poke someone a few times, and stealth out. And you think a counter to this is broken? Please…

raahk.2786:

And please, point me in the direction of a build more viable then just the berserker, because I have yet to see it.

So you’re complaining that thief can’t “survive more than five seconds” without stealth out one side of your mouth and claiming that Berserker’s is the most viable build out the other? Okay…

raahk.2786:

But please continue to discount other’s opinions by making assumptions about how they play without actually knowing how they play.

Your opinions are factually incorrect, and thus WRONG. I don’t need to know how you play… if you claim thieves can’t survive without stealth then you’re wrong.

Did I say that thieves can do that? Did I say that thieves can engage a multitude of people and get off scoff free? No, I didn’t. It’s a hypothetical situation that has happened to many thief players. You’re fighting someone, you get low on health, need to heal, more people show up then you can handle. You don’t have the bulk of a guardian or warrior, or their blocks, or the invincibility of a ranger that’s running that specific build (which, by the way, are other classes that can get away with biting off more than they can chew just fine) so you need to get away, right? Oh look, button pressed, revealed, dead.

Let me word it better, STEALTH-BASED THIEVES, as in thieves that use the shadow arts line, will have a harder time living then that of an acrobatics thief, that has more dodges and movement based skills, alongside a larger healthpool. STEALTH-BASED THIEVES will get shafted by this skill since their entire survivability depends on stealth and the traits associated with it.

And you still haven’t pointed out an armorset that’s more viable then that of the berserker’s.

darkace.8925:

raahk.2786:

A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

Yours might, mine won’t. If you can’t survive long enough for Reveal to wear off then you need to stop relying on stealth so you’ll learn to dodge, kite, use crowd control, and use terrain to your advantage. Or perhaps you need to stop running a one-trick-pony build and start running something a little more balanced? Either way, I can say with all certainty that stealth is NOT required for a thief’s survival.

Because the heal itself doesn’t restore health, right? Just because YOU can’t survive without stealth doesn’t mean the class itself can’t survive without stealth. Try trading in some of your Berserker’s gear and using the other tools given to you before claiming your glass cannon build is too fragile to survive without stealth? If you rely upon stealth to survive then you’re using stealth as a crutch.

Oh good, more people insulting my skill level while making assumptions. It was a hypothetical situation. You’re low on health, so you hide in shadows to stealth, heal, and get away from the multitude of people that are nearby. Instead, you’re met with the revealed mechanic and despite using dodges you’re still left with multiple conditions and downed instantly.

And please, point me in the direction of a build more viable then just the berserker, because I have yet to see it.

But please continue to discount other’s opinions by making assumptions about how they play without actually knowing how they play.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

@turtledragon

And that proves that you rush to conclusions because you assume too much.
You wanna know the counter to stealth? Try swinging your sword. Try AoE. Try correct positioning, and correct timing of certain skills to stun, knockback, or pull the thief.

But nah, you’re just gonna wait until the update so you don’t have to think about anything.

You cant even name a single skill that can counter stealth, stop talking big please.

I’m not the one who is dying on my Thief when I have access to Stealth.
FYI my Thief has ran the scenario above multiple times, and I have yet to see anyone able to counter it and kill me. Am I just too good? Or is Stealth just broken?
Wait you ran this scenario too, but you died? You died because…Wait that’s obvious.

Spamming 1 to swing my sword that the Thief can clearly see and avoid.
Trying to AoE something I cant see.
Stunning my target, wait what target?
Use Pull? Pull have 40-60 recharge, Thieves have 5 skills of which some have no recharge to get back into Stealth.

With the update, I hope to see more skills that apply Revealed to Thieves.

Did I ever say that I was utilizing the perma stealth build? No, I didn’t. Again, you assume too much.
Skills aren’t needed, player skill is, but you’ll await the update because you’re terrible.

I use perma stealth build and nevr die. you claim that I am terrible.
You use a build inferior to perma stealth build and die, and you claim to be good.

Logic much?

You cant even copy the perma stealth build correctly or use it correctly, and you are dying. I shouldnt even need to assume anything, this is obvious

I know the permastealth build, but I don’t use it. Why? because it’s world versus world. Sometimes I’ll run a normal stealth build, sometimes I’ll run pistol/pistol. I’ve been running around with spirit weapons on my guardians. World versus World is a place where you can mostly just screw around with whatever builds you use.

And you’re terrible because you can’t counter it, and even moreso for claiming that I’m the one relying on it when you have just stated that you’re the one doing so yourself. Hypocrite much?

And no, you shouldn’t assume anything, but you do so anyways.

I’m going to stop replying to this since you’re beyond logical thought and reason.

I cant counter it because there is no counter. You proved that yourself because you cant even name a single skill that can counter stealth, which makes you believe there are skills out there that can counter stealth because you failed at using the perma stealth build.

It’s not that you dont use the perma stealth build. It is that you cant. Therefore, you have to resort to an inferior build. You are relying on stealth, but are not even able to use it at its broken potential. Then you say that stealth is not OP.

Everybody knows as much except for someone here. Even a dev admitted that he could not catch a thief in a livestream.

I mentioned knockbacks, stuns, and pulls. You want specific skills? Try using almost anything engineer. Really. Wait till a thief pops out of stealth, drop supply drop, use magnet to pull if he isn’t near you and keep pressure. Gee, so hard.
And I can use the perma stealth build easily, but I find it’s more fun to do other things then dance around in stealth for a half hour accomplishing almost nothing, but go ahead and insult my skill level again without knowing anything about me.

@turtledragon

And that proves that you rush to conclusions because you assume too much.
You wanna know the counter to stealth? Try swinging your sword. Try AoE. Try correct positioning, and correct timing of certain skills to stun, knockback, or pull the thief.

But nah, you’re just gonna wait until the update so you don’t have to think about anything.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

And you’re telling me to get good.
Follow your own advice if you think that a situation like that in world versus world of all things is actual proof of stealth being overpowered.

What? Was the discussion about Stealth being OP anywhere else other than WvW?
Stealth is OP in WvW, Stealth is not OP in PvE, nor PvP because you cant cap while Stealthed.
You speak of counters to stealth in WvW?
Name them please?
Name on each profession please.
Show me them counters, I wanna see. Since I obviously cant see the thief so i wanna see the counter to the little thief in the scenario above.

Yeah, that’s kinda what the entire discussion has been about. Spvp and Wub.

The counter?

Getting good.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

raahk.2786:

Quotes aren’t working, so @turtledragon

So you’re just going to talk trash about the way I play, without knowing how I play, alright, sure, that’s fair, and then assume that you’re automatically correct and that I agree with you? You are a moron.

I use stealth, dodging, and shadowstep. I use stealth not as a crutch, but BECAUSE THERE’S AN ENTIRE TRAITLINE DEVOTED TO IT THAT GIVES BENEFITS FOR STEALTHING.

And your little point about how more weapon skills on other classes means that a thief’s core mechanic isn’t stealthing is just downright pathetic. Thieves have access to stealth on all but two weapon sets. We don’t need more skills to stealth, and thinking that other professions have more of a certain type of skill discounts a thief’s core mechanic being stealth is just downright idiotic.

I haven’t admitted anything. All you’ve done is make baseless assumptions on a player you don’t even know.

To add in to your last little remark, the “get good”, the only reason that this skill is being updated to reveal stealth is because other players couldn’t “get good”. They whined and complained until they got their way, while you go on to claim that I don’t want this because it makes stealth “uncounterable”, even though the most required to counter a thief using stealth is a basic thought process that many guild wars 2 players seem to lack.

Yourself included.

Thieves and stealthing has always been counterable. I’ve had plenty of times where I’ve died in stealth because other players knew what they were doing, or have even gotten lucky. It’s not hard, but people like you make it out to be by claiming that stealthing is “uncounterable”.

I think that the person who thinks their whole class will be useless if 1 skill with a 40 second cooldown from a Pet applies Revealed to them is the one who should get good. Thank you.

I never said useless, but feel free to make more baseless assumptions.

And whose to say that they won’t decrease the cooldown?
Whose to say they won’t add more, similar skills?

Not only are your points invalid and idiotic, but you also fail to look at the bigger picture.

edit

And no thieves get perma stealth. There’s always a point as to when they’re unstealthed, but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything.

But yes, sure, compare “not accomplishing anything” to being invincible, or brokenly overpowered. Yes. Sure.

“but the ones that constantly spam it in wub with dagger/pistol never accomplish anything”

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the scenario below:
The Thief attacks you. The Thief cant kill you. The Thief spams dagger/pistol combo to stealth and runs off. The Thief waits for all his skills to recharge. The Thief comes back and tries again, over and over. You on the other hand, cannot do anything about this stealth harasser, because he runs away invisible before you can finish him off. Wait, the Thief can see you and will make sure to run in a completely different direction that you are going to chase him.

So then after the Thief realizes he cannot kill you, he waits for someone to attack you, and then jumps in too. You kill the guy who attacked you, but the Thief realized his ally is dead, and stealths and runs away again, repeat over and over.

What did the Thief accomplish?
He did not get killed by using a broken mechanic.

What did the Thief not accomplish?
Killing You.

So compared with Guardians blocking all incoming attacks and not getting killed while dealing 0 damage themselves, and Necros fearing everyone who targets them, I see their level of survival they provide to be equal to that of Stealth, that is: OP and Broken.

And you’re telling me to get good.
Follow your own advice if you think that a situation like that in world versus world of all things is actual proof of stealth being overpowered.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

Except the reason why they’re introducing this skill in the first place is because people didn’t learn how to grow and evolve. They didn’t learn counter play, they kittened and moaned until they’ve finally gotten their way.

Change can be a bad thing too, you know.

It’s no different than the nerf rangers received to spirits and pets because people couldn’t learn counter play then. It’s change for better or worse. And it’s our job to roll with it and show how we’ll evolve.

It’s actually a lot different considering the spirit ranger was legitimately overpowered in that the only counterplay was killing said spirits, which just gave further buffs to the ranger controlling them, and that those builds still remained viable even after being nerfed, whereas thieves are getting a skill directed towards them that counters a core mechanic (at least to those of us that play thieves) and getting an unremovable debuff in the process. While it may not shaft stealth builds completely, it’s still something that will have to be thought of whenever you’re facing a ranger as a thief, and not taking in consideration the skill level of the opponent, what build they’re using, etc.

Meanwhile, I get low on health, use my heal that stealths me, and suddenly I’m revealed. No thinking, no anything, just hitting a button.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

No, I don’t care for your opinions about pvp because you’ve proven to me that you’re just parroting information you’ve heard from others since you just explicitly stated that you don’t play it, at all, and so you’re now trying to change your argument to something different to shift it from the topic at hand. That’s why your opinions are false, and it isn’t because they aren’t mine, it’s because you’re a parrot.

And for the record, I agree that there needs to be a permanent split of balance from spvp, world versus world, and pve. Ranger isn’t the only class that gets shafted in these balance updates.

Not parroting. Information has been gleaned from my own research and observations. My opinions are as valid as yours. That’s why they’re called opinions after all. And I won’t insult you if you won’t insult me again, kay?

No. Ranger isn’t. Nor is thief. Many classes have gotten the short end of the stick somewhere-or-other. That’s the nature of the game. But please don’t try to stop the game from evolving because you don’t like a single change. No class that’s gotten something nerfed liked the change. But you know what? They learned to work around it. Learned new counter play.

That is where you should focus your efforts. That is how we grow and evolve. Not by crying foul and calling for change to not occur.

Except the reason why they’re introducing this skill in the first place is because people didn’t learn how to grow and evolve. They didn’t learn counter play, they kittened and moaned until they’ve finally gotten their way.

Change can be a bad thing too, you know.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

It seems as if it’s the opposite, and that what you are saying makes little to no sense at all. I clearly defined why stealth is a core mechanic for thieves, but you have seemed to completely ignore what I’ve said, and shoehorn in your own paltry definitions and reasons as to why you think “Sic Em” is a competely fair and unbiased skill.

I’ll state it again, since you need to be spoonfed: Stealthing is a core mechanic of a thief because it is
1) The survivability of a thief, as without stealth a thief is prone to nearly instant death even with an armor type that isn’t berserker due to a lack of any other forms of utility that allow for the survival of a thief
2) the fact that the basic weapon combinations of a thief, all except two, allow a thief to enter stealth
3)The utilities that allow access into stealth, shadow refuge and blinding powder, easily outshine nearly every other form of utility, especially with the trait that increases the duration of stealth.

That good enough? Those enough reasons?
And for the record, there aren’t traitlines based solely around blocking for the guardian, nor is there one solely based around snare removal for the warrior, while on the other hand there are very few other options outside of stealthing traits when specced into the shadow arts line, which makes those comparisons pointless.

And even if a developer comes in here and says “Actually, stealthing isn’t a thief core mechanic” then it still wouldn’t be acceptable for a class to have a stealth removal skill.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

It’s funny that you think rangers have gotten nerfed as badly as thieves have, even though they’ve been dominating the pvp metagame since beta.

Dominating PvP since beta? No. They were nerfed hard between beta and launch. Most of the time they’ve been near the bottom alongside the warrior. We’ve had three seperate builds become viable before getting nerfed. First trap ranger. Then beastmaster. Then spirit ranger. All have been partially nerfed. And not a single one was considered at the top. Spirit ranger has been the most powerful one, but still was never the top. Never dominating.

If you want to look at dominating, there are several other classes I can point to. Like necro, elementalist, and guardian.

I may not play PvP, but I do know my class in all game modes. Even if for no other reason than to know why we’ve been nerfed time and time again.

Except all three of those have been considering as being at the top for various amounts of time, and all of them are still viable as builds. Rangers were nerfed hard in between beta and launch, but they were the most powerful class in pvp during beta and were only made better after the nerf. Spirit ranger especially since it’s still really, really good.
If you don’t play PvP, than you don’t jack all about your class, buddy, and shouldn’t be commenting on how you’re at the bottom of the barrel when you’re actually standing above everyone else.

And you shouldn’t be complaining about other classes you only think are dominating when you’ve just stated that you DON’T PLAY PVP.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

You haven’t explained why stealth isn’t a core mechanic yet. All you’ve done is say it isn’t and bring up an example that really doesn’t make sense. There are viable builds without snare removal for warriors. I don’t supposed you’ve ever seen a perplexity CC spamming warrior, have you?

Stealth has an entire trait line for thieves. How is that not a core mechanic? There isn’t any entire trait line devoted to snare removal for warriors. The comparison doesn’t make sense.

He defined core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without. If you define core mechanic as “entire trait line”, then Guardians have an entire trait line devoted to Blocking. Then Blocking is a core mechanic to Guardians. Remove all Unblockable attacks from the game. Why should Thieves get a core mechanic that is not removable and Guardians dont?
While you are at it, make my Mesmer clones Invulnerable until i Shatter them. People killing my clones are stopping me from using my “core mechanic which has a dedicated trait line” of Shatter skills.

You just stated that he defined a core mechanic as a mechanic that the class cannot play without, and then you go and list off a traitline that most guardian players, myself included, play without.

Stealthing is a core mechanic because not only does it make sure that a thief is able to live for more then five seconds, it’s also one of the most useful traitlines, has an appearance on all but two skill bars on the weaponsets, and is featured in some of the most useful utility skills.

You thinking that stealthing is just as overpowered as invincible mesmer clones shows your naivety.
And it’s essentially proving mine and other’s points about how stealthing is a core mechanic of thieves, since you again made the comparison of mesmer clones to thief stealthing.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

Considering the burst available to a ranger, the conditions, and how easy it is to be downed as thief, then I’d say yes, at least if the thief is stealth-based. You’ve obviously never played as thief.

An earlier counter one of you thieves gave for countering a thief is to not run glassy. A ranger is only capable of acceptable burst if they are glassy. Rangers don’t do high burst. Which you would know if you actually played a ranger.

And yes, I have a thief. She’s one of my two WvWers. Cuz my ranger sure as heck isn’t. And you could have told that I run a thief. Check my sig, good sir.

Except if rangers don’t run glassy, they run conditions, which do an extremely large amount of damage if not removed quickly, and if they don’t do that, they can run bunker, which still does good damage and has extremely survivability. What do thieves have outside damage and stealth?

Oh wait, nothing. Our conditions consist of bleeds, which can -still- be overwritten by something like another player’s autoattack. We have no options for any other builds other than glassy because otherwise, thieves aren’t viable. Sure, you can be annoying in world versus world with pistol/dagger, but it’s unusable in spvp and it never accomplishes anything in either gametype, either.

Rangers have multiple options. Thieves? Not so much. k

edit

Thieves being buffed has been circumventing by them nerfing the only useful buffs that we have gotten, case in point, the sword/dagger buff that has been since nerfed into oblivion and will be nerfed yet again to the point of near-uselessness.

It’s funny that you think rangers have gotten nerfed as badly as thieves have, even though they’ve been dominating the pvp metagame since beta.

Unless you’re just talking pve, in which case yes, you’re only good for your spotter and frost spirit.

FrownyClown.8402:

Here is what Anet should do. Make an animation that is easily seen for the sic em utility. All the thief has to do then is simply not stand there. Please don’t give in to the qq Anet.

Or not make it give a thief the revealed debuff at all, that could work too.

I’m seriously surprised that the playerbase has been complaining about thieves for this long to the point where they need to make a destealth skill.
You would’ve thought that players would’ve learned how to counter a thief, at this point.
At least I know the good ones already do.

I mean, channeled abilities still hit thieves long after they stealthed, which is unfair in itself. Mesmer greatsword, rapid fire, anything channeled. You can blind a thief in stealth, you can still hit them. There isn’t a need for this. Thieves need to be buffed. We’re still getting screwed over by the last refuge trait, and some of our traits don’t even work, as in they’re bugged and have been since launch. Most of our grandmaster traits are completely useless as well, outside of the two in the critical arts line and the one in shadow arts.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

All three are a core mechanic. Steal and initiative by itself isn’t enough. Roll a S/P or P/P thief and you will see, without stealth thieves are all but useless. While there are some builds such as jumper’s S/D and the D/D evade build, they simply aren’t viable outside of spvp. Not to mention that stealth has an entire trait line for thief. If that doesn’t prove it’s a core mechanic then nothing will.

Thieves being useless without Stealth =/= Stealth being a core mechanic of Thieves.

I could claim that Warriors are useless without the ability to remove Cripple/Immobilize/Chill, that does not make Snare Removal a core mechanic of the Warrior.
And Warriors really are useless without Snare Removals.

We have an entire trait line devoted to stealth, that isn’t an accurate or fair comparison in the least.

SynfulChaot.3169:

raahk.2786:

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol. A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

So a single skill. A single skill on a 40 second timer will completely invalidate a thief? Really? Hmm. Seems fishy to me.

Considering the burst available to a ranger, the conditions, and how easy it is to be downed as thief, then I’d say yes, at least if the thief is stealth-based. You’ve obviously never played as thief.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to counter core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

I’m sorry, but Stealth is NOT a core mechanic of Thieves.
Steal is a Thief’s core mechanic
Sneak Attack is a Thief’s core mechanic
No Recharge(Initiative) on weapon skills is a Thief’s core mechanic

Stealth is NOT a Thief’s core mechanic

Sneak Attack does require Stealth to work, true. But stopping a Thief from using Sneak Attacks by using Sic Em, is arguably the same as using Corrupt Boon on a Guardian who has Aegis.

No, it isn’t. Thieves don’t stealth just to use sneak attack. Stealthing is the ONLY survivalist method thieves have outside of blind spam, and that’s only doable with offhand pistol. A stealth-based thief will be completely crippled because a ranger has a single skill on their utility bar, and will then be left defenseless since he didn’t spec in to the acrobatics line and only has two dodges, with a maximum of four or five if using sword/dagger.

darkace.8925:

Doomdesire.9365:

I disagree entirely with the change to “Sic EM”. I don’t think that’s the direction this game should be headed. Being able to disable core mechanics is a no go for me. Stealth is a core mechanic, and the introduction of Sic Em is like having an ability to disable

- Guardian Virtues
- Mesmer Clones
- Ranger Pets
- Warrior Adrenaline
- Necro Deathshroud
- Engi kits
- Ele Attunement swap

with the use of a single skill, specifically aimed at that class. While some may argue that thieves aren’t the only players who can use stealth, they still are the only class who relies heavily on it, and without, cannot survive (see P/P or S/P).

I also don’t agree with the “no counter” to stealth argument, because aside from D/P, any dagger offhand build that relies on stealth is easily countered by dodging CnD, blocking CnD, or blinding the thief, even well timed CCs. On my guardian I found that I could effectively deny a thief much of his stealth simply by negating Cloak And Dagger. Even D/P has it’s counters through the use of pulls and pushes.

Giving a passive ability to ranger pets which would allow them to see and attack stealthed enemies is a good idea, allowing said pet to reveal enemy is not.

Just my opinion…

Stealth is NOT Thief’s “core mechanic”, Steal and Initiative are.

Oh boy, so at best a shadow step and the remnants of a mana system that was long since scrapped are our core mechanics, and not the very thing that allows thieves to last longer than five seconds in a fight.

Saying stealth isn’t the thief’s core mechanic is like saying that the engineer’s core mechanic isn’t swapping through kits since they have toolbelt skills.

I hope that update to thief pistol mainhand actually makes it viable since thieves are getting nerfed yet again, while warriors still get never-ending buffs that they don’t deserve or need.
The only reason people complained about flanking strike was because it made bunkering harder for pvp babies, and, as usual in any MMO or really any game that includes a stealth-based class, people just have to call for nerfs.

I’m sick of nerfs. I shouldn’t have to use food buffs and D/D to be viable in world versus world, and spvp is going to be more of a pain since flanking strike is going to be nerfed yet again, while bunkers still reign supreme. Or condition stacking, but that’s another issue entirely, at least until the update hits and rangers are suddenly able to reveal thieves and disable a core mechanic at the push of a button. The counter to stealthing is being a good player, but there’s a severe lack of those in this game.

Again, I hope that pistol update makes it so I can actually use pistols without being laughed at. Maybe I’ll be able to disable mesmer clones, or halve the damage output of a warrior with it.
But since it’s not a change to “unload” then I’m just going to assume it’s an update to bodyshot that doesn’t change the functionality of pistols in the slightest. Especially dual pistols, which you need to build all of your traits around just to function, poorly.

Crise.9401:

raahk.2786:

Oh, also, world 2 zone 3 has a new thing now where everything is DARK
I can’t see anything anymore
I don’t know why it’s at night time now when it was semi-bright before
Not sure if this is a bug or it’s just more artificial difficulty that needed to be shoehorned in for god knows why

Those darkened areas are intended to be places to use the torch (the light sticks around, it is not just for burning things), candle provided far less light, so it makes sense that darker areas in World 1 would not be completely dark.

The blizzard on the other hand is very manageable without the torch, assuming you are not zoomed all the way out. The Moto’s Finger area is probably the hardest bit of the blizzard section and it is completely optional.

No, I just remember it being..brighter, at the start, but my mind is sort of buggy so maybe I just thought it was.

Another disgusting bug dealing with 2-2 in tribulation mode: The checkpoint near the end of the level that leads to the icy area is placed on spike traps. You will lose a life sometimes when respawning, and if you respawn after using a continue coin, you will lose a life. Also, falling in that area leads to the loss of two lives. Finally, the checkpoint cloud before the final checkpoint doesn’t work, which means you have to go through the stepping poles all over again if you fail to hit the checkpoint directly before the final boss.

This is absolute bullkitten.

Oh, also, world 2 zone 3 has a new thing now where everything is DARK
I can’t see anything anymore
I don’t know why it’s at night time now when it was semi-bright before
Not sure if this is a bug or it’s just more artificial difficulty that needed to be shoehorned in for god knows why

Codename Rondo.3850:

I’ve been stuck on this part for a while now, and the search function on the forums doesn’t seem to work correctly for me.

It’s the part in world 2 zone 1 where you have to jump on the falling logs as they fall down the waterfall, just before the end boss.

Can anyone shed some light on how to get past this part? I don’t want to give up, I can see the end boss!]

Thanks in advance.

thank god there aren’t any traps there…at least I think so.

basically, you should look ahead, and you’ll notice logs that are a lot slower than the rest. You want these to be as high as possible. You gotta be real quick getting across since the faster falling logs will easily overpass these, and there’s also some waiting that’s involved. It took me a couple tries too.

edit

No, you just have to get across the logs. It can be tricky but you’ll get there eventually. You just have to time everything correctly.

minbariguy.7504:

raahk.2786:

It sounds more like you’re envious of those who can complete it, but you’re denouncing anyone that uses the continue coin even though we worked just as hard as everyone else to get past tribulation mode. The super adventure box is made for everyone, that’s why there’s different skill levels. If you can’t do hard mode, that’s fine, but don’t denounce others for something that you can’t even do yourself.

Good lord, calm down. I haven’t “denounced” anyone. I’ve been speaking in general terms the whole time, but every post you make in response to me has to contain an observation, theory, or criticism about me personally.

Whatever.

Did you even read your own post? You denounced anyone using the infinite continue coin as “not hardcore”, simply because they’re using something that’s more convenient than wasting time farming them.

But feel free to insult others and then pretend that you haven’t said anything wrong, that’s fine too.

Alright, so I’ve been enjoying SAB. Tribulation mode was frustrating as hell, but what’s even more frustrating is that I’m going to have to do world 2 zone 2 a third time in tribulation mode. Why? Because I exited out to the hub to take a break after completing it, instead of waiting for the timer to end to transport me to the tribulation version of world 2 zone 3.

I did the zone, got the coin, but now I’m going to have to do it a fourth time (just now went to go do it again, died, went afk for about ten seconds, didn’t realize I had no lives) if I want to proceed. Why can’t you just pick the zones you want to do instead of having to unlock them? It feels pretty pointless. I did normal mode prior, so I should just be able to pick whichever hard mode stage I feel like doing, right?

Basically, my point is a level should be considered ‘complete’ when you defeat the boss and open the chest, if at all possible. It’ll be easier the fourth time around since I know the traps and the layout, but I’d still rather not have to do this for a fourth time just because of some errors or other nonsense.

Player Character.9467:

Press 4…

They can also damage+knock you down after you stun them

minbariguy.7504:

raahk.2786:

Guides I agree with, but honestly, you’re sounding like an elitist, and you haven’t even done it.

I’m not elitist. My enjoyment of content and/or the rewards for doing it are not dependent on knowing that I was able to do something that someone else couldn’t, or that I have something others can’t get.

You know what makes me happy? Content made for everyone. I actually like it when everyone is able to do everything. I think it bonds the community together. It doesn’t accentuate the divides between the community.

But whatever. That’s just me. I know other people feel differently. Heck, if anything, I’m definitely more of a “care-bear”. Which, by the way, is a title that I’m happy to own up to.

It sounds more like you’re envious of those who can complete it, but you’re denouncing anyone that uses the continue coin even though we worked just as hard as everyone else to get past tribulation mode. The super adventure box is made for everyone, that’s why there’s different skill levels. If you can’t do hard mode, that’s fine, but don’t denounce others for something that you can’t even do yourself.

Fungalfoot.7213:

raahk.2786:

So you’re saying you’re more hardcore for farming an extremely large amount of continue coins, wasting hours, instead of just converting gold to get it. Okay, sure. I guess farming is ‘hardcore’ now.

Not at all. I, like just about everyone else who has done Tribulation, bought the ICC and trial and errored my way to victory. I just think the hardcore act is getting a wee bit silly on here. While some jumps are rather difficult there is no real skill involved in repeatedly dying to find the real path. That’s just a matter of persistence. All in all I found that the Clock Tower required more skill than this. I also found it more enjoyable but that’s a matter of taste.

That’s understandable, I can agree to that. But people saying that you should do tribulation mode without the infinite coin obviously haven’t done it. it’s making something that’s already tedious and annoying about a hundred times even more tedious just by having to farm more coins. it’s not fun having to farm them, nobody wants to do it, and the experience and difficulty doesn’t change at all if you’re using the coin.

minbariguy.7504:

raahk.2786:

So you’re saying you’re more hardcore for farming an extremely large amount of continue coins, wasting hours, instead of just converting gold to get it. Okay, sure. I guess farming is ‘hardcore’ now.

Nope. I’m saying that people who have to use guides and continue coins in Tribulation Mode aren’t hardcore, and I am even less hardcore than they are.

So you’re saying now that people can’t use coins at all, otherwise they aren’t hardcore.

Guides I agree with, but honestly, you’re sounding like an elitist, and you haven’t even done it. Try getting through all of world 1 in tribulation mode, twice, without an infinite continue coin, then try talking about how you aren’t ‘hardcore’ for using it.

Adamantium.3682:

CryxTryx.9208:

Adamantium.3682:

CryxTryx.9208:

Adamantium.3682:

Player Character.9467:

minbariguy.7504:

fungihoujo.8476:

Please show me your vid of you without a continue coin or guide going through TM without dying once, since content is clearly too easy for you.

^^^ So much this. ^^^

If you think you aren’t supposed to die, you don’t understand the game type.

Using the ICC still makes TM easier because once you learn where to jump by trial-and-error, you don’t have to be as precise getting there. Just because you have to die doesn’t mean you have to die infinitely. Playing TM without the ICC in your inventory is definitely harder.

^^ Hasn’t completed Tribulation mode.

^^ Has a few times. It’s easier when you don’t have the stress of needing to make the jumps on top of everything else in TM.

Ok see now that is an accurate statement. Saying that the jumps do not require precision just because you know where to jump is not.

There are some very challenging jumps in World 2 Tribulation many of which you have to preform consecuatively to progress.

When I said “you don’t have to be as precise getting there when using the ICC” I meant that if you die it’s okay, you’re not using any precious resource. With the ICC even the hardest jumps aren’t going to eventually kick you out of SAB altogether, you can take as many tries as you need. Without the ICC the hardest jumps have another element tacked onto them: not only are they technically difficult but you must make them, you can’t waste lives missing jumps you know how to do. You must use up your lives only discovering the right path. Once you know that path you better not waste lives going through it.

I have done TM with the ICC, this is not at all about one way being better than the other. I was only responding to the idea that the ICC has no effect on TM’s difficulty. I disagree with that for the reasons above. It would be harder for me to do TM with my ICC stored in the bank, I’m sure of that and I will likely try it once I finish the other things I want to do in SAB.

The difficulty doesn’t change at all, only the tediousness of it. There’s nothing difficult about having for farm more coins, and although there are a few areas that require pixel-perfect jumps, the majority of tribulation mode is just trial-and-error gameplay where you will never know where the next spike trap is coming up, or if that rock will knock you back.

Fungalfoot.7213:

minbariguy.7504:

People who claim to like uber-difficult content shouldn’t want “convenient”.

Going to have to agree with that. If you bought the ICC you really have no right to call yourself hardcore. Josh even compared it to using a Game Genie. If you did everything without it… well, hats off to you.

So you’re saying you’re more hardcore for farming an extremely large amount of continue coins, wasting hours, instead of just converting gold to get it. Okay, sure. I guess farming is ‘hardcore’ now.

Okay, so I did tribulation mode for World Two Zone Two yesterday, and wanted to do World Two Zone Three today.

What do I find? That I have to redo 2 for the THIRD TIME because I left before the countdown finished because I was mentally exhausted after having to do that. And this was before the patch, as well.

I don’t want to do this yet again. Please tell me it’ll be fixed at some point.

Cotheer.2806:

2-1 is a breeze now.
2-2 on the other hand, is still way too long, doable, but too long. (and no, that’s not what she said).
To think doing 2-2 in tribulation mode….shivers

I did it right before the patch hit

It’s hell on earth

Just came across a bug, when falling off of the area directly before the icy snowcaps that lead to the boss of World 2 Zone 2 (the wooden poles you have to jump on), you will lose an extra life. So you fall off, die, then lose two lives instead of just the one.

I only discovered this in tribulation mode, and I’m assuming something that sadistic wasn’t intended.

Josh Foreman.8250:

CommodoreSkippy.2657:

As far the owls that litter the World, do they need to be infinitely spawning? They aren’t difficult, just annoying. The owls add no additional challenge, they only serve to make the game less rewarding.

The owls are not what they seem.

I’m fine with the owls, but the noises they make? Oh god why. Same thing with the giggling baby bananas. Did they eat the voiceboxes of actual children? Are those the now frozen hearts of children being thrown at you?

I kid but jeez. Might be just me.

Also, eyebrow raised at that remark.

Siphaed.9235:

My biggest complain of difficulty:

- Where’s the sword?

Sure, we originally get the Pointy Stick in W1-Z1, but how come it hasn’t upgraded yet? The torch has an upgrade, the shovel has an upgrade, but the stick is still a stick? Why? Especially when it comes to the bears -polar and forest- as well as bananas, hillbillies, and raccoon mafia. Those things just laughing at the player’s Pointy Stick.

(Oh, and if there is a stick upgrade that I’m completely overlooking, please point it out and ignore this post).

There’s a hidden shop in world 2-2, all I’m gonna say.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Epicrandom.5817:

Hey Josh, I’ve been following this thread for quite a while and I thought you might like some feedback.

Thanks for the quality feedback. I agree with most of what you say. One problem I’m realizing now is that when I first built 2-2 it was not a long level. I never changed the layout, but as we had more and more ideas for new mechanics they kept getting packed into that space. (and subsequently meant a bunch of 36 hour days for me and Lisa!) I’ve now come up with the ultimate idea: The Anti-Idea Helmet. (Please don’t steal this idea, I want to patent it.) It’s a helmet that the each member of the SAB team is given. Like a construction helmet, but it’s got brain reading electrodes or what-have-you that can sense when you start to get creative. At that point a spring loaded mallet pivots down from its mount on the top/front of the helmet, smacking you in the forehead, discouraging new ideas. With this invention I can guarantee that the next release for SAB will be shorter, less dense, and have fewer new mechanics. (and the subsequent bugs that accompany them)

It’s okay to be creative, but you have to be careful when applying that creativity. Like the woman that ruined that 19th fresco painting of Jesus. People enjoy seeing new things, and new mechanics in this game is a welcome plus, but when those mechanics are seemingly unfair and cruel, it isn’t very entertaining to those who are at the other end of them.

I feel like World 2-2 would’ve been better if it was a rather large trick tower that you work your way down from, or up, if checkpoints led into portals to put you at the correct starting position for the next area. But that’s just me.

You forgot to mention how baubles are nearly non-existent in world 2, and how they nerfed the amount of baubles you get from digging in every world. Probably to make it so players will feel as if they need the infinite continue coin, especially to proceed through tribulation mode.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Josh Foreman.8250:

le snip

snip

you basically completely ignored all of the valid complaints about the new SAB and stated “Well, I think it’s alright, so there’s absolutely no problems whatsoever”, when in fact there is an incredible amount of problems with the latest update to the super adventure box.

I’m not going to name all of them. Others have already. I doubt the developers will actually fix them, however. At least not before SAB leaves us for another few months.

The gong run is the most tedious, most trash area I’ve ever had the discomfort of playing.

What happened to, you know, making content FUN?

Because having to run up a tower, dodging instant kill arrow traps, and then dying on your way down because you can’t move past a giant obstacle that’s supposed to be protecting you is just garbage.

There could’ve been a checkpoint at that gong, or something, but no, you’ve gotta run up that tower again and again and again and again until eventually something gives.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

raahk.2786:

Unfair in every way isn’t fun. Nor is it challenging. It’s cheap, and bad game design. Being absurdly hard is perfectly acceptable, but trial-and-error gameplay is not.

From what I understand from Josh is that the Tribulation Mode isn’t about fair. It’s unfair by design. It’s “cheap” by design. It’s overpowered against you, by design.

Then it’s bad design, nothing more needs to be said. it was advertised as something that would take at least some degree of skill, and yet instead it’s only something that requires you to purchase the first sign of pay2win in this game to proceed through it. I don’t know about anyone else, but I was expecting a challenge with a simple reward that could show that I completed that challenge, not complete and total bullkitten.

Faevius.9862:

I’m in love with the difficulty. It brings me back to the old times of gaming where you actually had to put in time to overcome a level. Skill has become a factor again. World 2 Zone 3 now. With a little bit of determination, I believe all of you can do it on infantile mode. Don’t change a thing!

I hate people like you. Stop referencing the old times of gaming that you probably didn’t even have a part of. If you did, you would recognize bad game design when you saw instead of mocking people that get destroyed by overly long, pointless game mechanics coupled with trial-and-error gameplay.

They stated this with the first release. Didn’t play it? Too bad.

Josh Foreman.8250:

The reason we did the 1 life thing is because we found that lives were not meaningful if you can just pop back in, catch up with your party or die once and catch up with them. Now they are. We also added Continue Coins in each Zone chest, and they are in JP chests as well. And you can buy 5 of them for one Bauble Bubble.

Why did you remove the bubble baubles from the end chest and replace them with the coins instead, then? I think people would rather have the five coins then just one, or the bauble instead of a coin.

Rozbuska.5263:

raahk.2786:

Unfair in every way isn’t fun. Nor is it challenging. It’s cheap, and bad game design. Being absurdly hard is perfectly acceptable, but trial-and-error gameplay is not.

Kid these day what never play that old games..:-)

I grew up with megaman 2, castlevania, and other games like it. Those games are tough, but fair. Tribulation mode is TRIAL AND ERROR. There’s nothing fair about it, it doesn’t take skill, just time.

kids these days just don’t know bad game design when they see it.