Guild Wars 2

babazhook.6805:

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.

I think the demand for condi thieves to uninstall was made more out of anger than anything. I don’t think he literally wants people to uninstall but instead switch their builds. Telling people to uninstall is just a way of doing this while expressing more of one’s frustration. Maybe Husky can touch on his motivations in more depth.

sPvP is more regimented – especially compared to WvW. It’s interesting because that’s probably a big part of society where greater difficulty and competitiveness results in more strictness about what works. The new sPvP system has made it even more competitive too now with having exact rankings for the top players.

And do you not see an inherent contradiction in your point of view?

Pvp can only get healthier if there a more diverse set of weapons and builds used yet those that claim to favor PvP over other forms seem to be acting to discourage that directly.

This is hard to get one’s head around. It very much like those people in WvW that complain about the imbalance in server populations even as they bounce around server to server so as to get on the one with the largest population.

Diversity in builds isn’t the only form of diversity though. Diversity can occur from the development of new strategies and tactics despite playing similar or even the exact same builds. Sure, the strictness over what works can limit creativity with builds but it also makes it easier to focus on how to outplay players. A main purpose for diversity of options is for us to show off our creativity. Even within the strictness of ranked sPvP, there’s numerous ways to attempt to be creative.

saerni.2584:

All condi DPS is lower than power DPS. That isn’t really an argument against thief condi in general because it is true for the entire game. Damage over time has value and creates constant pressure.

This also means I can burst a middle hp engi down and have the damage continue even through the invulnerable mini engi they use to avoid dying. This means I can actually kill some builds with condi faster/more reliably than power can.

Also, at a high rate of speed (i.e. small durations) a difference in speed is negligible. Take a 20% cool down reduction on a skill with a 10 seconds base (8 seconds, saving 2 seconds) and the same on a 50 second cool down (40 seconds, saving 10 seconds). The more marginal the advantage the less it matters in most cases.

I guess that’s where we’re going to inevitably agree to disagree or argue endlessly. Those disadvantages add up – even the marginal ones. Those marginal advantages win fights and even games. Advantages for condi are there but currently, their disadvantages are greater, such as by the slowed killing speed and as I’ve mentioned before but not specifically to you, a lack of cleave. Can you believe it’s possible power are typically better (even if only by a little)? If not, I have nothing more of use I can offer.

babazhook.6805:

I have no interest in playing Pvp and threads like this , where a person demands others that do not PvP his way uninstall the game are one of the reasons why.

I think the demand for condi thieves to uninstall was made more out of anger than anything. I don’t think he literally wants people to uninstall but instead switch their builds. Telling people to uninstall is just a way of doing this while expressing more of one’s frustration. Maybe Husky can touch on his motivations in more depth.

sPvP is more regimented – especially compared to WvW. It’s interesting because that’s probably a big part of society where greater difficulty and competitiveness results in more strictness about what works. The new sPvP system has made it even more competitive too now with having exact rankings for the top players.

saerni.2584:

I think you can learn from observation. I was merely pointing out the difference between what you and baba were talking about and that it was derailing the actual discussion of effective pvp builds.

Can we talk about what I posted about D/D condi in higher level pvp and the limitations that presents? That seems more on topic and actually in agreement with you somewhat.

Sure. The condi builds you’re describing as having finesse and as being more effective than D/D evade spam are generally outperformed by power builds. This is mainly because power damage works faster than condi damage and because thief power skills currently have much higher DPS than our condi skills. This is incredibly important because when one +1 occurs faster, so does the next one, the one after that, and so on.

saerni.2584:

Are you going to ignore me and focus on an esoteric argument about observational learning? There is a clear difference between observational (i.e. playing against the build is question) and watching a video on youtube. You and baba may be talking about different things in that sense (him youtube and you fighting in spvp matches).

There aren’t that many videos of condi P/D out there. You can’t say much from a relative lack of evidence.

If observational learning is esoteric to you, I absolutely want to talk about it because this may be a huge part of why you’re currently unable to form a more accurate perception about the strengths and currently more numerous weaknesses of condi thief builds. Babazhook thinks I’m talking about highlight videos on YouTube when I’m mentioning streams. If he had watched streams before, he would know they’re continuous videos of game-play featuring everything from highs, lows, and the many minutes spent waiting for queues between sPvP games.

We can learn about the effectiveness of something through being on the receiving end of it and through watching others attempt to address a problem. How do I know a bunker ele is hard to kill without ever having played one? How do I know precision strike hurts without ever having hit someone with a precision strike in sPvP myself? You guys are seriously devaluing what can be learned from other people. Some of it’s observational learning, some of it is experience from being on the receiving end of a build, and some of it is simple intuition based on experience

Babazhook, why am I being told I need to play condi thief builds to determine effectiveness when you clearly haven’t played sPvP at the level of play I’ve been talking about? You want me to play more condi builds? Cool. I want you to get high on that leaderboard playing entirely condi thief builds. I want you to speak about sPvP from experience!

Are you guys really not aware the effectiveness of something can also be determined by observing others in their attempts and this is a fundamental component of our learning of anything? When we watch comedians tell jokes, we’re learning a little about the delivery and telling of jokes despite never performing as comedians ourselves. We can infer conclusions about GW2 builds in a similar fashion as well, like seeing that D/P thieves are weaker in 1v1s from watching even extremely good D/P thieves failing to win 1v1s in their streamed videos while other skilled players playing other classes do not. We have this incredible aspect of how we learn and you guys want to ignore it to blindly promote your loyalty to a currently sub-optimal build.

Screw the argument about GW2 builds. Whether or not we win or lose ranked sPvP games is really inconsequential compared to other matters, like understanding basic aspects of the human psyche. Why are some of us unable to believe observational learning exists? Are there no instances in your lives where you’ve watched someone do something, seen what it resulted in, and thought “Maybe I should do that too!” or “Wow, that went badly… I won’t try that”?

So do you never estimate how well a build works based on how well it’s working for others, such as by viewing a stream of someone using a build or assessing it partly on how well it works against you when others use a build? Learning through observation is one of the coolest things we’re capable of doing. I don’t need to play a bunker ele to know they’re likely the best bunker class in the current game. I don’t need to play a power revenant to know they do a lot of damage. Why do players need to play condi thief to know something about them? How is learning through observation not learning for ourselves?

But I digress because I’ve actually played condi thief. I tried P/D thief in sPvP way back when I first got the game and WildBill played P/D in WvW. It seemed impressive how he was able to win 1vX almost entirely with CnD and Sneak Attack. I imagine his YouTube videos are still up. However, I quickly learned relying on CnD against non-beginners was not optimal (and this was during a point in the game where P/D was arguably stronger than it is now). I don’t have a good enough reason to try it again in sPvP considering the problems I experienced with the build and the other limitations I can expect to have, such as with cleaving.

I also played D/D condi thief when HoT first came out. My argument that D/D condi thieves can destroy newer players but struggle against top players is made largely from experience. It’s an argument I’ve become more comfortable with making as I’ve seen other condi thieves wreck beginners and sputter hopelessly against good players. If condi thieves start making a positive impact on the games I’m typically in, I’ll consider it playing it again. Until then, why bother when staff and D/P work so much better so much more often? Questioning consensus only has value when the consensus is wrong.

babazhook.6805:

It the difference between learning by rote and critical thinking.

I agree there needs to be some critical thinking. However, it seems we disagree over how much critical thinking is occurring within the formation of GW2’s sPvP meta. In other words, it seems you think the meta prevents critical thinking whereas I think it speeds up critical thinking for those who currently think critically.

Basically, people who conform toward what’s popular will use the meta to promote what they’re conforming to. You’re no doubt away of this. However, there are also people who simply want to use what tends to work best that will use the meta as a resource for learning from the efforts of others.

You seem to think everyone who promotes the meta are simply those who are biased toward what’s popular when this is only partly true. There’s so much more to a meta than that.

Ah, what was your objection to D/P in that thread then?

Also, I’ll ask again. Why is it when we tell you what to do to win more games that this is seen as intrusive and demanding? Life is full of suggestions we tolerate and enjoy. Why can’t these suggestions be like those? Isn’t it possible you’re perceiving what we’re saying as being said in a much more negative tone than we’re intending?

babazhook.6805:

you KNOW I have qualms about the split second timing needed for d/p? Where did that come from? I use headshot on my power builds with regularity and hardly have qualms about it.

As I stated many times I play 5 different thieves and 3.5 of them are power. Only one is condition and I spend more time on power. Unlike far too many I am not dissauded from trying a build because the community does not approve of it.

My point to PvP is that people should play what works best for them and not what other persons deem optimal or those other persons might as well be allowed to dictate not only your weapons chosen , but the profession you decide to play.

This is after all a game and there would be less toxicity if the people started to realise it a game. What should probably happen is those persons concerned with only winning and forming optimal teams should be grouped together in a division all of their own while the more casual player there just to have fun , try new builds and optimize the builds they favour can do so.

This will likely not happen. They will continue to mix these types together and like ANY game the player has to learn to deal with that fact rather then try and dictate their own playstyle to another.

Oh and as to challenge? if a given build , no matter the weapon set or class deemed sub optimal and the player using it goes into PvP and helps to defeat a team considered optimal is that not a challenge met and a goal accomplished?

When I read on the boards that XXX build is trash one of the first things I do and have always done is try out that build and see if i can in fact make it work. I see that as a challenge. I am not imposing this view of how to play the game on anyone else because I recognize others have different goals and different challenges.

Unless I’m mistaken, it came from the thread about Rending Shade where you stated you were an older player who preferred not to depend on headshot and PI. I didn’t bring this up to insult you but to highlight a legitimate reason someone may opt not to play a specific meta build.

Do you react to all suggestions like this? For example, in grade school when instrutors gave us lessons on addition, they were basically dictating to us that 2+2=4. When we’re taught about history, they’re basically dictating to us what that history is. Did you object similarly to these instances of being told what to do? I don’t think so. I think you found the information helpful or, at the very least, tolerable. So why is it when sPvP players supply information, such as by citing the typical end results of the attempts of others at playing condi thief in ranked sPvP, this suddenly becomes more than you want to tolerate?

I think you find us unlikable. If this is true, this perception makes it harder to see the truth: our experiences as sPvP players are resources. Underneath what you find unlikable are lessons. These lessons can be used to make better decisions in any pursuits you may take at climbing the rankings in sPvP, such as by learning the more optimal thief roles with builds that don’t have the same glass ceiling as our current condi builds. We’re here to help (even when we don’t seem like it).

(This is in response to babazhook.)

If there is a condi thief on our team in ranked sPvP in games against higher ranked players, there is a lower chance to win than if they had spent their time learning a power build instead. This is what our experiences of playing with and against condi thieves are telling us. I’m criticizing condi thieves in sPvP because although they are viable against newer players in sPvP, it’s preferable to play with and against players who spend their playing time learning more optimal builds for higher level play. It’s preferable to play with and against players who don’t play condi builds on their thieves in sPvP.

You accuse me of confirmation bias but I see exactly where, why, and how condi thieves work well at lower levels of play. In lower divisions, players are more likely to play offensive stats, like playing marauder or berserker stats on a DH or engi rather than mender’s. They’re more likely to rotate to edge nodes to fight condi classes, like mesmers and condi thieves. In the upper divisions, players don’t do this. They play mender’s amulet, an amulet that counters condition builds, and volunteer to handle condi players who attack edge nodes. (Thus, a mesmer is more preferable for this role because they can either portal a teammate into a losing 1v1 match-up against mender’s builds or portal out and outnumber elsewhere.)

Why the focus on edge nodes?

Because that’s where condi thieves are carrying games the hardest at lower levels of play. It’s not the P/D thieves or the venom share thieves who are the most difficult for newer players to handle. It’s the D/D evade spamming condi thieves. They’re not doing this by going into big team fights because their cleave is awful and being around too many random CC’s results in a quick death. They’re not carrying games in a +1 roaming and decap role because condi builds move and kill so slowly in comparison to well-played DP and staff builds. All those extra seconds it takes to down a player we’re outnumbering add up and eventually we’re not arriving in time to prevent teammates from losing 1v1 and 2v2 fights with our +1. D/D condi thieves are carrying lower level games by being able to hold nodes against 1-2 players like a bunker and kill players using sub-optimal builds at the same time.

How do we know condi thieves kill too slowly in a +1 roaming role?

Before HoT, the rule of thumb for +1ing was about 16-18 seconds. If it took longer than 16-18 seconds to down and finish a player in a fight we’re +1ing, the opposing team is gaining an advantage. If it takes less time, our team is gaining an advantage. Right now, the window for getting a kill is shorter for non-dash builds because they move at the same speed as pre-HoT builds while other HoT classes have gotten more mobile. The window for dash thief is larger because they +1 faster than anything else in the game. What does this mean for condi thieves? It means if you’re not playing dash as a condi thief, you have ~12-15 seconds to make a +1 that actually helps your team and your condis take half that time to do their work. If any of your burst conditions get cleared, you’re unlikely to get a kill in an optimal amount of time. It doesn’t matter if you’re removing boons with Rending Shade if players are still not going down in an optimal amount of time. (And that’s if you’re even landing CnD and not having Sneak Attack countered by the numerous projectile counters used in sPvP meta builds, like tempest and scrapper.

Nevertheless, here’s what I suspect is happening. I’m making lengthy arguments in response to the numerous errors in your estimations and you’re responding by not wanting to read all this (more errors = more things I want to point out = more words used in a post). Thus, you’re oversimplifying what I’m attempting to articulate and “all you see” is some overly simple meaning, like “Oh, this guy just doesn’t like condi thieves!”

Frankly, I don’t care whether you or not you continue to do this. I know you’re a WvW player who has qualms with some of the split second time of D/P builds that rely on PI. Because it’s unlikely we’ll be playing together in sPvP, I don’t care if you play P/D, D/P, or don’t equip a a weapon at all and attempt to defeat opponents by whispering them bad puns. I don’t care if you continue to only see what you want to see.

What I care about is helping other people better pursue challenges because that’s one of if not the most rewarding parts of life. In GW2, the biggest challenge this game has is trying to beat the regular ESL/AG players. With practice and an optimal build, this can be done. Right now, if we play condi thief in sPvP, we’re not playing an optimal build. We’re making this potentially rewarding challenge much more difficult from the get-go. If this concept has no appeal to you, oh well.

babazhook.6805:

That is not what i see at all. I see a group of people who have found something that works for them unwilling to entertain the thought that any other build/style can work and unwilling to adapt to other builds.

It regimented thinking. That unwillingness to try and adapt their builds to other playstyles or types is limiting . If they are not very top tier and can not prove a win every time they play with their own version of how things should be done than the claims “no other style but this works” does not have merit.

You should not be “telling” people what they should play in any format .

My way or the highway only works when one can demonstrate they win each and every match no matter the skill level. If one has a 60 percent win rate using power as compare dto a 40 percent win rate using condi, nothing is really proven.

I understand that the way PvP constructed leads to this type of thinking on the part of the player as made evidentby the OP. It is also why I find PvP not to my liking as it far to limiting which made even worse by the DEMAND that people should only play a defined and approved build.

The problem isn’t that their builds aren’t working. The D/D death blossom and evade spamming condi thieves are working in sPvP! They’re destroying the lower divisions and allowing their users to be more commonly matched with better and better players. However, they’re only working up until a certain point. Once condi thieves start getting matched in games entirely against meta builds, condi thieves start becoming much, much less useful and start putting their teammates at a handicap.

My argument isn’t “no other style works but this”. My argument is overall, power thief builds are working more consistently than condi thieves over many games in the upper divisions of sPvP. These arguments are being made from our experiences in trying to win. There’s little pleasure in winning because a team was handicapped with a condi thief player and an incredible amount of frustration in losing in large part because of a condi thief teammate.

Sure, these arguments can be seen as intrusive, demanding, and elitist. However, they’re also being made to inform other players about what type of play-styles we can learn and what builds we can use to win without hitting a glass ceiling (like the current glass ceiling for condi thief builds and their effectiveness in sPvP). We’re arguing to spare ourselves and others from the frustrations of certain choices. These intrusive, demanding, and elitist arguments are also a resource for newer players to make more informed decisions about what they may attempt to learn to do within GW2. If all you see is the elitism, then look wider. Look wider because you’re missing the best, most helpful part of this type of discussion. It’s the part where people can use the experiences of others to help narrow options and pursue goals more optimally and more quickly.

We did not have to see this.

I understand you can make condi work well enough for your liking in WvW. The majority of the negativity in this thread directed toward condi thieves is directed at those who play it in ranked sPvP. That’s where we’re telling people to play power builds.

babazhook.6805:

Any condition build has conditions that can be cleansed along with weak cleave. This not restricted to the thief.

Now surely in such a match there others with cleave on a team and is a thief generally the one tasked with cleaving a downed enemy?

Do conditions builds work in PvP or do they not because both on PVP boards and on Wvw I am reading a whole lot of “they are op”.

You’re exactly right. This is not restricted to thief. This is why there are so few condition builds within the meta for competitive sPvP players. Currently, only mesmers and necros are optimal with using condi in sPvP. This is partly because their cleave is fantastic (necros) or they have more CC than other condi builds for helping prevent rezzes (mesmers). Condi thieves are a liability for some of the same reasons condi druids and engineers are.

Yes, a thief is usually tasked with contributing to cleave. Our mobility allows us to generally contribute to most kills in a match. Staff builds can be amazing at this and D/P builds can do enough if the fight isn’t too big. Keep in mind this is a discussion about condi thieves in ranked sPvP where the game-play is generally more competitive and the optimal build choices are fewer. Condi thief can be incredible against newer players and, as you know from your own experience, strong in WvW as well. In the upper divisions of ranked sPvP, however, it’s a huge liability. Lack of cleave is probably the biggest reason why.

saerni.2584:

Venoms + Steal + Dodge (Uncatchable) + Sneak Attack + Shadowstrike =

6 stacks of poison, 5 stacks confusion, 6-8 stacks of bleeding, 8 stacks of torment (6 outside of sPvP), 6-18 seconds of cripple.

You can make that 10 stacks of confusion if you combo inside throw gunk.

Yeah, we know. That burst is great right up until it gets cleared or the person you just bursted down gets rezzed because condi thief cleave is garbage. Power builds don’t have these limitations.

Husky, even though you’re right about the limitations with condi thief builds, people are going to keep disagreeing with you as long as you talk to them like a prick. If your point is good (and it is), you don’t need to use insults to attempt to force it on people.

Hot Boy.7138:

People can play what they want, in any game mode they want.

Not if we’re trying to win against the game’s better players consistently.

saerni.2584:

Many sustain ele and druid builds have trouble killing anything. I can imagine a D/D condi thief would be perfectly happy holding a captured point against a sustain ele who won’t die but won’t be off fighting with his/her team at the other points.

In theory, yes. In practice, you would need A) the opposing team to allow you to full cap their home node for this to happen, and for their team support to rotate to it rather than someone whose class and build is better suited for this role. This is allowed less and less as level of play rises. It’s really easy for other players to keep track of a thief with no stealth or dash.

What happens to the D/D condi players is they play the build, win a TON of games against newer players, and raise their MMR. Once this happens, they begin to play games where their build no longer works well and they’re not practiced enough with the builds that function better against good players (such as D/P dash, to a lesser extent: Staff bound, and to much a lesser extent: D/P bound). D/D condi is a trap! It gets people so many easy wins but puts a glass ceiling on their capability of progressing to higher tiers of skill. Those short term benefits of carrying games against newer players just aren’t worth it.

D/D condi is just a staff build that trades team fighting potential and cleave for greater ability to solo hold/contest a node longer. It can be effective until someone identifies the thief is playing condi and someone playing one of the many meta mender’s builds volunteers to handle them. In platinum and legendary, this usually happens.

If someone tells you to kill yourself, there’s not something wrong with what you’re doing. There’s something wrong with what THEY’RE doing!

In theory, everyone will eventually look at the numerous perks for making friends and view at as a reasonable course of action rather than a source of injustice. In theory…

You definitely want to use Daredevil – the new elite trait line. I’d recommend taking up D/P with bound to start with in PvP. It’ll introduce you to some core mechanics of our two best build types: bound staff builds and dash D/P builds. From there, you can decide whether you like the +1 roaming role, which dash D/P excels at, or taking even fights, like 1v1s and 2v2s, which staff does better at, and change your build accordingly.

I want another dodge-oriented trait line with nerfs to the Dare Devil to help prevent dodges from being overpowered. If we ask for it, we won’t get it, right?

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m saying you’re going to get crude answers and to take them at face value is pointless, just as much as debating the nature of what best adequately displays skill or takes the most skill to play (something which is still not clear).

I disagree with it being pointless. If nothing else, it’s a mental exercise. What makes an answer crude?

So, basically, your opinion is this question cannot be determined by the methods we would certainly use within a discussion and you’ve been commenting mainly to encourage us to look at the question in ways you view as being less crude. Is this accurate, Deceiver?

DeceiverX.8361:

Which is why in my first post I made this statement:

Under scrutiny, there is typically a crude association which can be made between individual skill of the player and the viability of his chosen methodology when compared to that of the highest level of play, and then cross-comparing it to his peers at the level of play he is playing at and then doing further analysis based on the rated difficulty : effectiveness ratio of said method.

As far as what takes the most skill to play, well, you know my stance on this. What I can tell you is that in my opinion the most impressive build to play and win with when against the meta would be something like D/D power core thief. Of course, this is nothing but my perception on the matter paired with what we can identify as being the weakest build available right now generally speaking.

I’ve had a number of opponents I’ve killed in WvW whisper me (A power D/D + S/D core thief player) commend me for playing those under-used if not under-powered weapons and winning with them. I have never been commended by anyone when playing D/P, and find those wins often ill-deserved from my own perspective.

The thing about D/P, is that it tends to be the favorite because both unskilled and highly-skilled players will do better than any other set, but for vastly different reasons. The lack of trend here demonstrates nothing more than that the weapon set is simply overall much better than its competition.

So, do what you will. Maybe I misunderstand the question, but from what I understand, it was asked which takes the most skill to play. For this, you’ll get massively different answers based on the playing experience from other players when simply asking that question. I can’t provide you with the objective truth, particularly because I barely know you and where you may stand on the win-rate ladder and the likes. I can only supply an answer that takes the OP as implicitly wanting to know which weapon set could most-demonstrate one’s skill, and I can only assume that he is within or near the average case, considering a pro-level player wouldn’t be asking this question, and a new one wouldn’t be talking about the most-skill-intensive getup. Thus, I can only assume he wants “impressiveness,” since any other question (like which is best) is totally unrelated to what was asked.

I’m having a problem though, Deceiver. Even after rereading that paragraph from your first post, I don’t know what your stance is on this other than you’re both more aware of and willing to explore the numerous ways answers can depend than other posters so far. Is it, simply put, that skillfulness is in the eye of the beholder? That seems to be the implication of you redefining “skillful” as “impressiveness” and using compliments and lack thereof as indicators of impressiveness. If so, however, it seems you’re answering for how other people will interpret skillfulness, such as your own skillfulness, but not how you interpret the skillfulness of others.

Considering I’m the person who made this thread, you can ask me what my intentions were/are. If you do, I’ll tell you about how it’s intentionally ambiguous because I’m not looking for build help and I’m more curious about how people answer the question rather than what our answers are. If you still feel my skill level is an important point of discussion, I’ll be happy to provide information to help you make a more informed decision about what my skill level currently is (such as my total number of sPvP games played and my winning %).

DeceiverX.8361:

you can see why I said it’s nigh impossible to truly and objectively define skill.

Absolutely. In my opinion, everything we, people in general, are capable of perceiving is still an over-simplification to one degree or another in comparison to the perfect, objective truth. Although it may not be possible to determine the entire truth in this kind of situation, its still beneficial to us to attempt to answer these types of questions. This seems to be a sentiment you would at least agree with up to a certain point. In my opinion, the kind of question I asked is ultimately a matter of how much over-simplification is acceptable.

To me, it’s acceptable to say one build can tend to be more highly related to player skill than the rest. With the current state of thief, I think this build will generally be Dash D/P (Sindrener’s version). It’s an oversimplification, but, for whatever reasons, I find this over-simplification acceptable to make. I’m curious where you draw the line on what’s acceptable given how much nigh impossibility there is in determining a perfect truth. Are you willing to pick a single build to answer my original question (or an altered version of my question) given the amount of information currently available?

Wargameur.6950:

You can’t compare that with a test of faith -> spear -> pull -> shield push from a DH or an instant 15 stacks of burn engi ( sry I don’t know the combo, I don’t have an engi )

I think you can. When we alternate gap-closers and gap-creators, it’s a sequence of ~2-5 skill uses depending on the situation. As you’ve shown, some other classes have longer sequences, but they can also use those sequences less frequently. What is a rotation other than a sequence of skill uses? How many skills do we need to use before the sequence can be defined as a rotation?

Krysard.1364:

I think you’re confusing skilled builds with skilled players. The most skillful build is measured only with its deep mechanics, but you can determine when a player is more skilled by making him win with a worse build. So, if a thief playing a simple but underperforming A build wins a thief playing a complex but strong B build consistnetly in a PvP environtment, the A thief is more skilled, but B build is still the build that requires more skill (and probably why the B thief cant win A thief, cause he’s worse mechanically)

This, the difference between build and player, is what fascinates me. As other posters have said, the build itself cannot be skillful. Skill is what the player learns/brings. This makes an incredible amount of sense because skill is really just a specific type of brain matter we build up with practice. It’s something only existing inside our minds.

However, some builds are clearly more difficult than others, such as playing with an off-hand weapon only or X/D. As other posters have alluded, winning with handicap is much more skillful than winning without.

Thus, the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. There are no skillful builds but there are also builds where it’s much easier for players to show they’re incredibly skillful. Deceiver showed how situational this can be with articulating how sometimes handicapped builds will be too handicapped to succeed against the stronger builds. If players can’t win, they can’t show skill in one of the more obvious ways of demonstrating it (through winning).

Simply put, there are no skillful builds. There are only builds that can more or less easily be used to demonstrate skill. What those builds are depends on the situation.

Wargameur.6950:

This conversation will go nowhere….

If you don’t consider the player skill, then a skillful build can only be based on combos or skill rotations. In that regard the most skillful are builds with harder combos to obtain. For example a combo field and a blast is ridiculously easy to do with a short-bow. On d/p the action to go in stealth for a long time require more mastery.

But the thief is more of a “reaction” class, you won’t have a skill rotation like an ele, an engi or a mesmer.

Being a reaction class doesn’t mean we don’t have rotations. It just means our rotations vary more depending on the situation and what the opponent is doing – i.e our rotations are reactionary rotations.

For example, D/P dash thieves have similar rotations when fighting several classes, such as dh, necro, and warrior by bobbing in and out of melee range with dash and shadowshot. The rotation is essentially shadowshot, AA 1-2 times, then dodging headbutt, the point-blank condis from entering death shroud, etc. A rotation against an ele commonly involves waiting for them to use their earth overload before using steal.

We don’t have a skill rotation like some other classes, but there’s definitely patterns to how thieves fight certain classes. These patterns can be defined as rotations.

DeceiverX.8361:

It’s paradoxical in the sense that once the weak methods peak in their acceptable performance at a given echelon of play, there’s no advancement thereafter such that it’s impossible to prove the player is inherently better because the variables of the methods differ. Even if that skill gap is very tight or even favoring the weaker-method player when against peak-level or above opponents, there’s virtually no way to prove it unless he was to win a fight. In which case, the assertion about the peak is either wrong, or the player using the weak method is simply astronomically better than the other. More than likely, it’s the former (I.E. why the meta changes), rather than seeing huge upsets where professional-level players start losing to random no-names.

In other words, a D/D player is better than a D/P player provided he or she can consistently beat the D/P player. If the D/D player cannot consistently beat the D/P player, the difference in skill cannot be determined by this outcome alone because D/P is stronger. Am I understanding this correctly?

It seems regardless of peoples’ answers, we’ve so far been in agreement in our unwillingness to declare winning with an advantage as especially skillful. Although this seems obvious, it also raises a question:

Is there no skill in determining what build is generally best and deciding to stick to it? I think you guys will agree there some skill involved, although maybe not very much with resources like metabattle and this forum available. If you do think determining the best general build is skillful, how do you differentiate between this kind of skill and the kind used in actual game-play?

DeceiverX.8361:

So I think the better question to be asking is not what the most skill-intensive kit is, but rather, for a given context (level of play, opponent, environment, etc.) what the most impressive kit to be playing is.

But what if I want to say the most impressive kit to be playing in the given context is the most skillful and/or skill-intensive?

Some love for the D/D players? Some trolling responses for P/P? Lets hear it, boys.

Krysard.1364:

Not talking about balance. Im talking about quality gameplay. Maybe a 20k hit is balanced cause u can spam dodges and oneshot the warr, but still unfun to play.

If WvW affects one class more positively than another, which WvW seems to with benefiting power thieves more than power warriors, the match-up becomes more imbalanced in favor of power thieves. If the match-up in WvW generally favors thieves, doing as you initially suggested by switching from WvW to sPvP will not fix the OPs problem since he will still need to anticipate quick burst abilities (although it will certainly help having more objects around to LoS with in sPvP to deal with ranged burst attacks).

I absolutely agree it’s not fun. As a rule of thumb, the devs would ideally attempt to change any abilities which suck against experienced players and work really well against newer players, such as gunflame. Those abilities just make it harder for newer players to enjoy the game. However, the devs typically don’t touch most of the more gimmicky builds unless the outcry is overwhelming and also coming from ESL participating players. In the meantime, players in the OP’s position should pursue more practical solutions, such as through finding warrior players to practice against on dueling servers for gaining more experience with anticipating gunflame and dodging it.

Krysard.1364:

Which doesnt change anything about the fact that wvw is about powercreeping your build, leading to unfun situations like the one being talked in this post. Whether it affects more A or B is irrelevant :p

Balance or lack thereof is always relevant.

Krysard.1364:

dont play wvw if you dont like mad powercreepd dmg LUL

The damage increases probably help power thieves more than most (if not all) other classes given how we can easily deliver spike damage while avoiding hits.

Kocoff.7582:

^^^ this guy. 0.3 secs?

Plus the small amount of time it takes the shot to travel. Other than greater punishment for not predicting/reacting to it, dodging gunflame isn’t much different than dodging a phase traversal, precision strike, or shadow shot.

In sPvP none are better than SB. Staff comes the closest because vault can be used for mobility and sometimes it’s better cleave if opponents don’t interrupt vault. Sleight of hand is almost universally better than quick pockets (especially if using PI).

Urejt.5648:

oh poor bluri! How can he know how powerful staff is, if he never played it nor saw true master of staff. How delusional he must be to deny huge dps and dueling capabilities to staff?

What was it that happened to cause you to decide to troll?

Jana.6831:

Mature people actually explain stuff.

But he has explained it. According to Sindrener, D/P with dash offers more mobility than bound builds and more stealth than non-D/P dash builds. He’s stated those two advantages in mobility and stealth makes D/P w/ dash better in competitive circumstances. He’s stated the reasons for why this is important is mainly because of how much more easily he can be tracked and countered by the communication of the opposing team if he has less stealth and less mobility.

(As a WvW player, you’re likely less familiar with how easily a roaming thief can be countered in sPvP by preemptively moving to one of the numerous areas on sPvP maps where there’s no pathing for steal or other teleports. Having stealth on demand and high mobility counters this by making movements both more sudden and less obvious – players can’t bug our ports if they don’t know we’re coming.) For some, such as yourself, the explanations haven’t been enough.

Nevertheless, there’s a broader problem here being demonstrated by Urejt, Jana, and others. Sindrener is happy to stream, explain his in-game decisions as they happen, and from the point of view of one of the best, if not the best, thieves currently playing the game. In other words, he’s a resource for helping players like us improve more quickly (particularly for those who have loftier goals for sPvP) that you’re not taking advantage of. And for what? To play a know-it-all or a victim on the internet?

Vanilla thief strategy:

Get HoT.

Urejt.5648:

but i suspect pros know where enemy thief is thx to communication or simple map awarness.

There’s the problem. You suspect while sindrener knows from experience.

You can dodge gunflame. We have a lot of dodges.

Blocks have counters. Invulns do not.

Why does his opinion of what works against top tier players bother you, Urejt?

Bunker mesmer.

/thread

Exclusion looks like this.

babazhook.6805:

The fixation of those Metaphiles on the meta means they can not be objective on ANY of the traits. They have already passed judgment because it not Meta and for no other reason.

Referring to individual people as they and giving a negative name to summarize a perceived group of people. I have made no such remarks about you or any other poster in this thread.

In my mind, we, those of us who would bother to read a thread about Rending Shade (a trait that would more commonly be taken in sPvP or WvW than PvE – at least I hope), are all just PvPers. WvW and sPvP have more in common than not. You spend less time running away from fights and standing in circles until they turn white and I spend less time looking for fights and avoiding zergs. Beyond that, it’s probably still some of the same insanity of avoiding mesmer clones, attempting to prevent druid celestial heals, watching out for thief bursts, etc.

The added damage stats make it easier to take improv without becoming unable to down someone for lack of damage. Mug, lotus poison, and panic strike are all so very good. Even with greater offensive stats and easier access to blood lust, why wouldn’t you still typically take DA in WvW other than when experimenting? It’s not like the +%damage can ever become redundant, particularly with so many other benefits.

Thanks, sin. Keep it up.

It’s bad. Wanna’ argue for 3 pages about it?