Guild Wars 2

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pCY3zSfF17IxoCdO0jCbf1K6R+1vjB-ToAA1CmI2RBkDIzOSgsAN+Y2A

This is the build I ran.

Um… If you’re standing on a point (which btw I was the entire video?) I had no issues being healed by my bombs… and I played an engi for about 2.5 hours total. If YOU’RE having issues healing yourself, I’m not sure who’s in any position to be saying whats good or not. You’re obviously doing something wrong…

And no, the point is, bunker builds need to not be able to last forever, in a game with conquest as the main objective, standing on a node to win, this easy of a win is not okay… And for the record, prior to this fight I actually BEAT (in about 5 minutes lol) a Power necro. While there wasn’t much they could do about me staying alive.

Okay this guy is rank 40 necro, he had no idea I was filming, until afterwards, I told him, He DID try (and almost successfully a few times) to out condi me at 30% but I had Elixir C and the 4 on med kit for the very occasion, if I predicted a burst at about 30% I could also Elixir S to juke some of those burst condies. Plus I can heal for about 200 or so per bomb and 100% vigor uptime, so warding off a few lingering bleeds or what have you wasn’t very hard, not to mention I passively get Regen under 25% when hit.

I didn’t “build for condies” I had AR (the very trait we’re talking about" and I took Elixir C… Which by the way, will also clear any chills/cripples/bleeds etc that power builds sometimes often provide passively and turn them into nice boons, and under that hp I wouldn’t be able to be immobilized, snared or what have you, and the entire fight I had 100% uptime on vigor/swiftness, good uptime on other boons and better access to protection versus power builds (since the condy builds weren’t taking 10% of my hp in 1 hit very much if ever).

nakoda.4213:

i’d like to see that video from the necro’s perspective to see what skill he was using after you hit 25%.

lmfao… Wow. He didn’t even know why were were doing this, all I asked him was to help me test a build, and didn’t even say I was recording it.

2.5 hours played on an Engi TOTAL, can make a build impossible to kill for a condi necro. That’s not esport, fans.

He didn’t lose… he gave up because it was useless to even try anymore. XD

Watch the fight if you want, but watch specifically 2:33+

Manuhell.2759:

Sooo, when someone dies with that trait and posts a video he gets accused of having lost on purpose and when someone else does the exact opposite, it is all fair and square and absolutely not staged.
No, seriously, totally unbiased.

If a non engi player can make an unkillable build versus a very popular and powerful build in literally minutes of creating it, and some engi main is dying and finding it “never useful or saving them”, yeah I’m going to go ahead and say its a problem with the player…

nakoda.4213:

ronpierce.2760:

nakoda.4213:

i look forward to the video, ron, but your duel vs a necro is not a proper demonstration of how AR operates in a tournament fight where the necro, presumably on a competent team, will be and OUGHT TO BE, assisted by a teammate when running up against a hard counter like an AR engie.

Its enough to prove that no counter this steep should ever exist in any game (ESPECIALLY) claiming to be E-Sport directed.

that makes no sense as a rebuttal to what i’ve stated. my point is that you need a pocket theif or pocket ranger (the best option, imo) if you want to kill an AR engi as a condi burst necro or condi burst engi.

the ONLY people with problems with AR are condi burst specs.

how is that NOT apparently intended?

where is this video?

Its coming, trust me I’m excited to share, I’m pretty happy with how I did with limited Engi usage. xD I’m not a fan of how long processing videos takes with movie maker.

Also, just fair heads up so no accusations, I did capture what he said about AR, but it wasn’t scripted, he didn’t know I was filming him until after the fight, but he’s a friend so he was okay with it. So anything said is totally his feelings too. And also, I don’t even run Condi necro. I run MM power build (which is near impossible to stay in range with when I can’t immobilze, chill, snare, while being snared.

nakoda.4213:

i look forward to the video, ron, but your duel vs a necro is not a proper demonstration of how AR operates in a tournament fight where the necro, presumably on a competent team, will be and OUGHT TO BE, assisted by a teammate when running up against a hard counter like an AR engie.

Its enough to prove that no counter this steep should ever exist in any game (ESPECIALLY) claiming to be E-Sport directed.

Romek.4201:

you get always the dmg from first tick but NO DURATION CAUSE ITS REDUCED BY 100% = complete (not-100% how some ppl write here)

all your attacks do dmg – how often ppl have to write this till you dont ignore it?

So what about the whole “it won’t make you immune to CCs with duration”? I’m not real worried about taking 97 damage from an attack that hits you with a bleed lol XD

Friggen, under 25% with AR+Regen under 25% trait Necro scepter 1 was providing me with more regen than he could deal damage to me.

Just you wait, good sir. I’m going to prove to you that AR is the skill-lessness we’re all referring to. 2.5 hours on an engi vs a rank 40 condi necro. Just wait. And I poked some holes in your other accusations too, like how the -100% condi time works.

nakoda.4213:

sorrow.2364:

Manuhell.2759:

I could say the same about you and your pals, you know.
You’ve been ignoring every single argument we’ve posted here…

I’ve not ignored your arguments. I’ve just tried to say in the whole topic that your arguments were not addressing the issue.

How can you have an argument about politics if you keep talking about music?

nakoda.4213:

it’s a good thing that you have no bias at all.

mew mew!

P.S. yes, you are a waste of time, but hey, it’s saturday morning and i am here to ruin your weekend.

Congratulations, you succeeded with your stupidity to make me lose my will.

your will is no match for the d*AR*k side.

^ lol’d XD

edit: 50% then uploading to Youtube, stick around.
edit2: This is me with about a total of 2.5 hours now on an engi, ever. As you can see in the video I didn’t even know all of the other passive stuff going on, but maybe it’ll give you an idea of why its an issue.

I’m processing a video as we speak, just a duel I had with a rank 40 necromancer (yes he runs condies and flesh golem)
1. This should not happen. I don’t care WHAT you’re fighting, immunity of death to any dps type character is not “okay”… ever.
2. I proved you are wrong about how condi -100% duration works. I had him link his agony scepter, spam auto attack, not even a minor bleed even showed up. It did absolutely nothing. So just sit back and enjoy why I’m telling you this is absolutely not acceptable in an e-spot game. This isn’t sport, it’s a loophole.

Edit: this is a perfect example of why my suggested trait of removing all conditions and making your TEMPORARILY immune for about 4-8 seconds with a 60-90 second cooldown would however, be considered skillful. If you get this low, it allows you to clutch and bring yourself back up, but you’re not godmode to a type of build. If you’re SKILLFUL you will last long enough for it to come off cooldown and save you again. Otherwise, outplayed, you should rightfully die.

nakoda.4213:

i run clerics with a soldier’s jewel and those same runes.

I have 18332 HP and 1k heals with 3k power adn 3k toughness.

bunkers do not stack vita. just because they CAN doesn’t mean they DO.

your logic is flawed.

potentiality and reality are two different things.

you been to come back to the virtual reality within which this discussion is placed

ie: the actual builds that use AR and the actual equipment AR engies take.

Generally, no they don’t but when you have a trait that specifically benefits from it, you MIGHT have to think outside the box a little bit sometimes.

30 in inventions and Soldiers ammy+Clerics jewel (youre allowed to mix and match)
= 23.4k hp 500 HP 3k armor just letting you all know (with 4 groves+2 earth runes)

Manuhell.2759:

ronpierce.2760:

Sure, ignore the entire post about Defy Pain and the vast difference.

Sure, ignore the damage capabilities of a warrior traited kitten and the difference between those traits.
Even with AR, you still have to heal conditions or you would die anyway; that means you’ll have to spec in both toughness (to stay alive below 25% hp) and vitality (to have a decent treshhold to stay alive in).
Other builds die too fast, because their effective hp pool below that treshhold is too small to survive.

That immune, instead, would be instant – you can avoid entirely getting blocks and such things. They would just spec into vitality and then into offensive stats – cause there is no need for toughness in that case.

ronpierce.2760:

I have PERSONALLY made a build that can have perma vigor/swiftness, immune to conditions under 25%, good healing, high protection uptime etc.

And it doesn’t do anything else. How many traits related to offense can you get this way? Kits are heavily trait-dependant. You’ve spent at least 50 points for the things you’ve written about. No regen on kits. No elixir-infused bombs. No traited elixirs. No bonus damage on flamethrower and elixir gun. And you plan to run, so you won’t use the tool kit as well.
It works just for theorycrafting.
And it assume the opponent is a terribly incompetent player that is just running after you.

Oh, and “high protection uptime” is a blatant lie. You would have it if and only if you get disabled every 5 seconds. Cause there is no skill that reliably gives it in the engineer’s compartment.

My apologies, “how much into offense”? I was referring to bunkers, and I forgot that Engis are SUPPOSED to be able to kill someone attacking them while bunking but everyone else “has to call for help”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defy_Pain_
Grand Master, please read it.

Sure, ignore the entire post about Defy Pain and the vast difference.
I have PERSONALLY made a build that can have perma vigor/swiftness, immune to conditions under 25%, good healing, high protection uptime etc.

It’s not worth arguing about anymore. They gave us all the information we need… “This is the CORNERSTONE OF OUR BUILD” “doesn’t need nerfed”. It’s pretty obvious they just don’t want their trait nerfed because it single handedly is a build-trait all of its own… If you ask me, that’s pretty ridiculous, no trait should be so powerful that you base an entire build around it to ignore 100% of what an enemy can do at times. Check this out.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defy_Pain_
“But its a GRAND MASTER TRAIT, boo hoo. Guess who Doesn’t have sustain? Warriors. Guess who has the same kitten thing but for power damage. Warriors. Guess what the difference is:
You can still be fully cced, condition damage (the most unmitigatable damage) goes through, it lasts 4 seconds, has a 60 second cooldown, and is a Grand Master in a tree that’s also “not that powerful otherwise”. Now imagine:

Defy Pain: Under 20% (because it’s a warrior, so chill your HIGHER HP POOL QQ) warriors are immune to power damage and cannot be CCed via chill, cripple, immobilize and fear. You tell me how many people would be kitten ed. Hint: A lot.

Zelulose.8695:

nakoda.4213:

you didn’t read a thing i said.

@cellulite:

if a bunker engi with AR is running away from the point and melee cannot catch her, the point is clear for you to cap.

job done, move on.

If the engineer runs on the edge of a point they can still kite melee damage.

I’ve tried to explain this to them, if you don’t have videoproof of obvious things then they won’t listen. Obviously this isn’t the cast or as much of an issue for hammer/mace warriors because stuns bypass it, but just about any other non stun-chaining melee gets totally screwed.

Ouch… That thread…

RaynStargaze.6510:

ronpierce.2760:

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

That would actually be a buff! Full condi cleanse at 25% hp? we`re talking necro levels of op here

No it wouldn’t… it’d be a clutch, just don’t blow your wad and wonder why you died… After that ran off, then they’d be fully killable for a whole window. I didn’t say I wanted the trait to be kittening useless, just not 100% uptime.

What if instead of -100% duration, instead it just Removed all conditions and gave an 8-10 seconds berserker stance effect (shown with an icon of the trait number so we can see when its about to run off) on a 60-90 sec cd. It’d save lives, allow clutch, bot not be a perma resistance which is no fun.

I agree mm needs help, but it needs a lot of help. To avoid writing another well of text on the subject if youd like to hear my (long) opinion, read here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Sikari-s-Push-to-Revive-the-MM-Necro/first

Okay, I literally never play an Engi… EVER and I threw this together just to show you what I mean that it makes life hell on melee classes. I really don’t care about the argument about conditions, because guess whakittens already being addressed, it’s getting nerfed… Regardless if “not many” people run it, it can be very over the top for a bunker-set up engi. Sure if you’re trying to do damage and have like 14k hp and no toughness, yeah its not going to do you much good, but that’s not what the problem even is… Its how powerful it can be in bunker situations. I’ve spend no more than 2 hours EVER on an engineer, I read over a few skills and I already knew the gist of how they worked, I made this, and I was playing rank 30+ people who mained the given classes… Video inc, its processing.

No, I said it wasn’t used as much, get your head out of the sand… As I’ve said about 5 times in this thread, it harms power melee cap closing far greater than it effects conditions because an engi can gain perma vigor/swiftness while keeping cripples on enemies while immune to even utility conditions… (And I was referring to Engi faceroll builds…)

For Staff’s if you don’t use the apostrophe you say Stakitten , it thinks you’re saying “ff’s”

Taym.8326:

Zelulose.8695:

The trait, Automated response Stops all conditions at 25% hp from being applied. Given so many classes play condition builds, this one trait can make almost all condition builds useless vs engineers. It also allows them to troll in a map. Three condition players may not even be able to take down an engineer with this trait on.

My suggestion, please give the trait a cool-down or allow other players to remove conditions as well as the engineer can.

I agree, in order to balance this we must give out a class immunity to physical damage below 25% HP. Only way to balance it properly.

Exactly. Say, idk… Ele or Ranger. Okay Ranger. If Barksin was 100% less physical damage AND immune to stuns/knockdowns (opposite of immobilizes/snare conditions, more physical based) under 25% hp, people would be FURIOUS. Its a bigger deal now because more people are plying with dagger as a necro, more people are playing condies these days, and there are actually more people using AR since some of the OP face roll specs were nerfed… Its not thakittens gotten better, its just more used now, but that doesn’t make it not OP as hell… Also, 5 pages in 2 days, and you’re trying to defend it… Nothing gets that kind of attention lol… If it NEVER saves you guys, let it get nerfed and continue to not rely on it?

High Warlord Sikari at the moment.

Eviator.9746:

ronpierce.2760:

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Like I’ve said before I don’t have an opinion one way or another whether it’s OP at high levels of play. But you would sure be able to make your point much better if you had video, instead of just one-sided logic.

It doesn’t take rocket science or a how to to understand how crippling an enemy that has to be in melee range to attack and being immune to CCs while having perma vigor and swiftness makes for a one sided fight. I mean… hell, just do the math…

Eviator.9746:

The last several posts have just been theorycrafting. Video or it didn’t happen.

I’ve been pvping for quite a while, I don’t need a video to show you what easily happens all the time… If this trait “never. not once” never saves you all, you’re doing something HORRIBLY wrong. Are you sitting at 30% letting them stack condies?

Romek.4201:

love point 1^^ now automated response is op cause melee cant slow the engi? and the poster before said melees are warrior and dagger necro – not the thief cause he can beam around

seriously? an engi with this trait is an bunker and he wanna hold the node hes siting on and when he run and you cant catch him you alraedy have won – take the node

dont understand the problem here

edit: ronpierce your point is pointlesss – the engi dont run from you with this trait^^

You can kite a melee with cripple on a tiny kitten point… The point isn’t a 130 radius…. Get with it. If you have this and you stand on point and take shots to the face and don’t exploit the rim and perma vigor, you’re the bad one…

A bunker engi can run 0/0/0/30/10 and have perma Swiftness, Vigor, immune to conditions under 25%. Just… thought I’d throw that out there. That’s not hard to achieve, and yes it’s pretty mindless… And people STILL refuse to recognize this effects melee classes that rely on conditions to close gaps far greater than the kitten condi spams everyone is so set on. Get over the condi spam its going to get nerfed…

Its still a bigger counter to any melee class that relies on conditions to stay in range like warriors, dagger necros, you know. the stuff that cant spam teleports basically. xD

Stealth.9324:

So if one day,there are no point for killing, would you still want to kill?

yes, because someone who dies is also 15 seconds out of the game and go to a spawn point. Dying is part of the game…

Stealth.9324:

ronpierce.2760:

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

So to you, every one has to fight to death with no ability to disengage? Dude,this is NOT a BLOODY ARENA.

People should be more likely to die… yes…. You get points for killing, classes like warrior and necro can’t leave, its actually a downside of having them on your team because if they’re losing a fight, the enemy gets 5 points. If a thief or AR engi or Mesmer is dying, its like oh, I blow, I’ll just run…

dreztina.4820:

swinsk.6410:

These are just people who don’t know how to play.

What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.

I think kitten near everyone who plays this game (except for cheese mode thieves) would be perfectly fine with thieves getting some buffs in exchange for their stealth mechanics getting significantly reduced.

and weapon evades.

However, while I agree thieves need better defense passively and less stealth/evades. You have to also realize many of you thieves who cry about “thieves are too squishy” are running berserker… Yeah, they’re all like that. o.O Most zerkers don’t have spammable ccs, stealths and blinds…

swinsk.6410:

These are just people who don’t know how to play.

What rank is the OP? 12? Seriously, shield block/aegis in conjunction with stealth end skills is balanced. What you are asking is a nerf to thief, again.

I’m quite high on the leaderboards, and I really don’t have many issues fighting thieves but I can agree that thieves have WAY too much reward for their risk… miss? np keep spamming. Thieves are horribly built, it doesn’t matter what rank you play at.

Archer Henchman.2534:

I’m curious, so should I, as a thief, get revealed when I use any shortbow ability because they all have projectile paths that should ‘show’ where the thief is? Should shooting a clusterbomb instantly reveal me before it lands? Should surprise shot reveal me before it hits? Should scorpion wire trigger revealed even if it doesn’t hit a player character after being stutter step juked? Should shadowstep’s return?

Because if ‘knowing where the thief is’ is the criteria for getting a revealed debuff, every single one of those should.

But lets say that’s not the case, and its just the stealth attacks in slot one. That means these skills are the ones effected:
Surprise Shot
Backstab
Sneak Attack
Tactical Strike
The Ripper
Deadly Strike
Venomous Knife

Are people kittening about surprise shot not revealing on block? Sneak attack? Harpoon? Deadly strike? Venomous Knife? The ripper?

No, people are kittening about Tactical strike and Backstab. Note how both of those are the ones with the back-specific hit conditions. Start juking into facestabs and use aegis to kill basi.

Sure, why not.. And while we’re at it, make it so that when a Mesmer casts a phantasm in stealth it reveals them too. The answer to what you asked is yes…. Attacking while in stealth by using aoes and non-damage attacks is (I’d assume a bug and/or bad design) because any single target attack reveals you. No one wants to get attacked by an invisible target… there’s no counter play to that.

Thieves are the worst designed class in the game; Perma stealths, all of their attacks are spammy which gives really overpowered effects, so many of their attacks are spammable evades, they’re too kitten squishy BECAUSE of all of the cheesy set ups, if they weren’t they’d be useless, so yes. There isn’t much good about thieves, INCLUDING, yes you guys are too passively squishy…

Reanimator (lose the adept minor)

When a minion dies summon a Jagged Horror in it’s place. (Doesn’t effect Jagged Horrors) Decreases the cooldown on minion abilities by 20%.

(Merged New reanimator with Minion Master)

darkchicken.8692:

So what i learned from this thread so far

1- With automated response, i am a living god under 25% hp. Necro can no longer do any sort of damage!

2- Necro dont want to l2p or adjust, they want their counter to be nerfed so they can kill it.

3-The game should be tuned for 1v1 fight

4-Some skills on my engi got new abilities i didnt know about and i can double take grandmaster traits!

Seriously, i did give it a whirl next week and a good necro was still able to kill me with it. In most aspect of the game, that trait is near worthless, HgH is much better. Its only a somewhat counter to bad necro running full condi.

As I’ve stated many time’s Mr. ObviouslyDefensiveEngi. This effects melee power builds FAR more than ranged condition players. We can’t slow, chill, immobilize or otherwise CC you, meaning you can run around with your speedy kits while we look stupid. Also 1v1 DOES matter. Where there’s only 5 people per team in a map 1v1 happens a TON, the sooner you realize that in small scale pvp the more balance the better, that would be great. I’m sick of hearing “you shouldn’t be able to kill x” or “x shouldn’nt be able to do this”. “Shouldn’t” is a terrible design flaw and is boring. Bunkers SHOULD DIE 1v1 IF outplayed, but generally be able to last longer than glass. So now that all of that is off my chest…

Stop pretending this is a necro condi flavor of the month defense only. Its far worse on ANY melee build out there that relies on condies to keep on on their target…

Lucky me I don’t even want any legendaries. Only for show off reasons I guess? But only legendaries I like are GS and necro can’t use GS T_T

Sunflowers.1729:

Kolly.9872:

Change Aegis so that it only lasts 3 secs when activated and put a 4 seconds cooldown on it after every succesfull block and we can start discussing about a “reveal” debuff change.

Hey, while we’re at it, let’s give Aegis-applying skills a 4 second cooldown!

Deal!

(bad comparison is bad)

Right? Having to juke a single class (with one of the lowest HP pools) because of aegis isn’t the end of the world, its not like you cant go into stealth after that 4 seconds is up about a million times.

Block and evade, this should include dodging from it.

Stealth.9324:

@Zeluos : Now, to you, my friend, you should look at how much harder other classes HAVE TO try to fare even with NECRO akittens current state. At the moment, Necro is the class that I would not expect any QQ from.

@sorrow : Every build has a counter, so DEAL with it. I would love to see me have a fair chance against a Necro know how to make use of his skill as an Eles. Again, maybe, you guys will tell me L2P. Why not apply it to you then.Telling GW2 is not rock-paper-scissor, do we even play the same game? And here you talk about balancing,….Give me a break.

Hint: I play an MM Necro and its more of a counter to me than a condi necro… I can’t CC, I can’t chill them, my dagger auto attack is my main source of damage and requires melee, I lack swiftness, and they have (or can have) perma swiftness while snaring myself and my minions. Its literally a harder counter for certain non-condi builds than condies, and it has nothing to do with damage.

Nikkle.4013:

Lags just a players fault for running at high settings on a comp that can’t handle it, but the devs have already noted how horrible team fights look. They said they will be toning down some effects but then they say there adding more. I hope they have a setting that allows you to disable effects on the enemies.

On the enemies? Seems like you’d care less about the colorful stuff you’re doing (since most of the time it still provides rings for your aoes) and would rather at least see what the enemy is doing so you can react :S