Guild Wars 2

I’ll likely change simply because they look like a more polished and fun to play class. Necromancer and its abilities are very stale and dated compared to the revenant (Wells, spectrals, etc). I mean realistically, I have to ask myself, why play a ground AOE power build or some single-boon LF generating abilities on long cooldowns when I could play unique mechanics with a lot of play and inner synergy? It was bound to happen, necromancers aren’t the only ones this will affect in this way, but because of the similarities, I do think it’ll affect them the most.

Coulter.2315:

ronpierce.2760:

I already did. Unless you are seeing half the people rage over an engi build every time rather than being smart like many are (kill them with ranged/condies, 1v2 or avoid if it’s a bad matchup for you) then what you’re assuming is a majority is actually just a highly valued minority. It’s a very well known fact people give more value to those opinions that match their own. Check out the forums. A few notable people complain. Many tell them to get over it and learn to play or avoid a bad match up, and many more then either side literally doesn’t care. Technically speaking, both pro and anti-turrets are both minority speakers.

Just to check but your 3 options were “kill them with ranged/condies, 1v2 or avoid” well that sounds reasonable and not at all like a hand holding AI build. What did you say you played again..? It began with M…

IF you’re bound to insinuate Minion Masters are some how Over Powered, especially right now, I’m just going to let you live in your fantasy… I don’t have to justify what I play. I know my strengths and weaknesses, and I can enlighten you if you want, but I’m pretty sure it’ll fall on deaf ears…

jportell.2197:

I agree with Josre on this one. The might nerf was unnecessary. Celestial amulet needs gutted.

I wish people would stop using this word. :P
It doesn’t need gutted. It needs trimmed back. Sledge hammer to builds only reduced diversity, that’s no fun. (I don’t play any celest builds)

I already did. Unless you are seeing half the people rage over an engi build every time rather than being smart like many are (kill them with ranged/condies, 1v2 or avoid if it’s a bad matchup for you) then what you’re assuming is a majority is actually just a highly valued minority. It’s a very well known fact people give more value to those opinions that match their own. Check out the forums. A few notable people complain. Many tell them to get over it and learn to play or avoid a bad match up, and many more then either side literally doesn’t care. Technically speaking, both pro and anti-turrets are both minority speakers.

jportell.2197:

Gotta love it when you are on the bad end of a 4v5 against
2 pew pew rangers,
1 turret engi
1 Power necro
and one Shoutbow warrior….
Then you win… and they tell you to stop playing cheesy shatter mesmer…

I wouldn’t consider power necro cheesy, but either way~ I’m surprised to hear that these days. Maybe back when Temporal Curtain was crazy clutch a long time ago, I’d consider that potentially cheesy but these days, not even. o.O

pdavis.8031:

AAAAH Yes. The trash talking of those who “think” they are all that and a bag of chips. I just ignore them. I 1v1d a thief with my ranger awhile back, evaded his Backstab, twice, (more by luck than anything) and downed him. As I was stomping him he started calling me a noob and l2p. :P It was rather amsuing.

And more recently we had a pug for unranked. Mesmer IIRC. Started whining about how our guardian was supposed to back him up because he was glass. Our guard was super glass medi, and would have dropped faster then the mesmer. We had a good laugh over that.

But I agree. “Real” pros don’t talk trash, are respectful, and concentrate on the game. Those who are wannabe pro tend to talk the most, and whine about everything.

You’d think that… I don’t really want to name and shame but I know many “top tier” players, several of them complain more than anyone I know, and can be down right toxic… Unless you’re saying they’re not worth jack if they’re toxic in that way. In which case, I’d agree.

Aomine.5012:

ronpierce.2760:

Actually it does now. People can just accept and leave. That checkmark asking you if you’re ready? It’s doing that. If not everyone hits enter it’ll reque. If people pass that step and get a map they hate, they usually bail, or if they’re with bad team mates they’ll bail. There isn’t much they can do to prevent jerk-behavior…

Nope, it doesn’t work.
You can have all the check box checked, only to find out your teammate dced and come back in after 10 mins, which it’s already too late.

They still said “I’m ready” as the match started. Whether they leave right before you get sucked in due to map choice or because they hate who they’re with, they were there as the match was starting up, regardless if you ever physically saw them or not. There’s about a 10-15 second window that they left in, but that’s not long enough to say that it didn’t check if they were there or not. They were, they just left or DCed. That’s not a failed system. Its either bad luck or lousy sportsmanship. You can’t fix jerk.

I’ve played well over a thousand and am still not pass the “moral barrier” for such builds. I play to win, this isn’t a courtyard ball. I take cheese and play it high tier and let people douse their flaming with their own tears. Its a perfect balance.

Actually it does now. People can just accept and leave. That checkmark asking you if you’re ready? It’s doing that. If not everyone hits enter it’ll reque. If people pass that step and get a map they hate, they usually bail, or if they’re with bad team mates they’ll bail. There isn’t much they can do to prevent jerk-behavior…

If you’re an enthusiastic noob, may I suggest playing more Turrets? It makes life easier on you, and you REALLY get to see the “pros” rage. Its a wonderful feeling.

Shaogin.2679:

True, Might did need to be shaved down and grats to them for doing it. But the core problem was the amulet that they left completely untouched.

Yeah, they certainly didn’t fix or address many of the issues. Especially correctly. I can’t say I was particularly fond of the last balance patch. The note about reducing the cast time on Necromancer’s warhorn skill from 1 second to .5 to “increase mobility” really threw me.

Shiyo.3578:

Might stacking has been overpowered for 2 years.

This I agree with. Regardless of Celest Ele, which in my humble opinion could still use some trimming (Mostly less damage for being a fully defensive spec), might has been a bit too powerful. This is beyond just a sPvP thing, too. PVE, WVW, anywhere, the difference of the haves and have nots gets to be a bit too much, especially when one person can selfsustain it.

I love when I run turret engi in high MMR and run with some friends who are all much higher MMR than I am (Chaith, Grouch, Hugh, Rupy), and instead of getting mad that we’re a full premade and they’re facing some of the actual best players in the game, they complain about getting carried by turrets. :P I really do love it, actually.

Probably because they never learn the right way to play when no matter WHAT they do someone is going “Wow, wtf are you doing. We’re better 4v5, go uninstall and save the world from your disgrace. Your mother should be ashamed,” rather than being helpful and explaining what it is they’re doing wrong and ‘why’.

I can only assume with this thread that you’re not very constructive…

Also, raise your MMR and you’ll deal with ‘noobs’ less frequently:

This is just a hunch, and I very well may be wrong, but I have a feeling they’ll build it and hype it up to be very cool and look OP, then nerf it a LOT just before release in sweeping passes, and I actually fear it’ll end up a bit weak compared to some of the more veteran classes when they get specializations, especially until people get a full grasp of the class and can provide realistic feedback.

Could be wrong, but we’ll see. I think its WAY too early, regardless to just assume it’ll be OP… Things people think will be OP as it stands might actually end up being a problem with the class in the long run. Like 2 heals? Chances are they won’t just rock two heals. Both will probably be weak to compensate, so they might not do well under pressure.

Just my two cents. Wait until we have more information before assuming it’ll be a problem. I also sort of hope they are JUST a bit UP on release to prevent a gross mass FOTM reroll…

As long as it takes to get mad about something else, probably. It’s not “OP” and annoying isn’t a reason to obliterate something. As far as I see it, leave stuff alone.

LB ranger is power, not conditions.

Your best bets for “condi” depending on how loosely you sue the term would be:
I’d say top are your better sustain, but might not be as “condi” as you’d like, the bottom being more condi but less sustain.

Celestial D/D Ele (hybrid-ish)
Shout Bow warrior Celest (hybrid)
Celestial Engi (Hybrid)
Terror Necro/Trap Shortbow Ranger

I’d look around at these maybe for a start. There are several others but they tend to diminish is tpvp viability, I’d say.

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

Seems like a stretch. I think you’re undervaluing the protective part of Fear.

I’m not sure why Fear keeps coming up. Fear certainly looks like a better defensive CC, but I’m not talking about defensive. I’m talking damage potential, and Taunt (appears to) take the cake on that one – fear doesn’t let your confusion keep ticking, it doesn’t let you force an enemy player to eat an “on block” or “on hit” attack they’d normally avoid because it’s highly punishing because it’s so obvious.

Also, I’d venture to say because of AI mechanics and slows, you probably won’t even have that much damage from it, it’ll probably end up more like a glorified pull rather than a push.

What exactly do “AI mechanics” have to do with this? also, most players will probably save their Hard CC (Taunt) for when their soft CC (Slow) is no longer on their target and vice versa.

I say that because depending on how/where you get taunted it may just end up more of a pull, you might not see the actual attacks happen as often as you’d think.

Terrorsquad.2349:

ronpierce.2760:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

The only thing in my opinion that needs to be toned down on turret engi is the Knockdown duration and the rocket turret’s damage

You do things like this though and you start to mess with builds that may take a turret but are not full turrets, all for no legitimate reason.

What do you mean? Sorry, don’t understand :p

Well Rocket Turret already isn’t very durable. If someone were attempting to use it in a build that isn’t a turret build, having it nerfed would make the possibilities of such a build less viable. If there were legitimate reasons to nerf it then sure, but nerfing the possible use of turrets in other builds simply because people don’t like playing against full turret builds is an illogical decision.

Well, yes, but the damage is way too high
It’s the same like they did for might; might was OP on eles,engi and warrs and they nerfed it, punishing all other classes

I would be down either reduce the Knockdown duration or a damage nerf, because a bunker shouldnt be able to kill imo

1,429 every 4 seconds on a projectile that is easily dodged/reflected coming from a turret that is easily destroyed and has a 50 sec cooldown, no nerf needed. The only people that die to this are those that rush in to fight the engi while completely ignoring the turrets, and those people deserve to die to this.

I have often wondered that. Why people feel its dps is so absurd. 1400 every 4 seconds really isnt that… amazing if you ask me. its okay though. And its not that hard to kill unless you’re a condi player, in which case you have the advantage over the engineer itself.

You need to see it as a whole. The damage indicator says 1400 damage, excluding the damage it really does. It hits light armor for about 3-4k + rifle attacks from engi + flame turret + thumper turret..

It’s actually too much for being a bunker

I’d have to test that. I don’t really recall ever seeing numbers that large, but I’m fine with being corrected.

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

The only thing in my opinion that needs to be toned down on turret engi is the Knockdown duration and the rocket turret’s damage

You do things like this though and you start to mess with builds that may take a turret but are not full turrets, all for no legitimate reason.

What do you mean? Sorry, don’t understand :p

Well Rocket Turret already isn’t very durable. If someone were attempting to use it in a build that isn’t a turret build, having it nerfed would make the possibilities of such a build less viable. If there were legitimate reasons to nerf it then sure, but nerfing the possible use of turrets in other builds simply because people don’t like playing against full turret builds is an illogical decision.

Well, yes, but the damage is way too high
It’s the same like they did for might; might was OP on eles,engi and warrs and they nerfed it, punishing all other classes

I would be down either reduce the Knockdown duration or a damage nerf, because a bunker shouldnt be able to kill imo

1,429 every 4 seconds on a projectile that is easily dodged/reflected coming from a turret that is easily destroyed and has a 50 sec cooldown, no nerf needed. The only people that die to this are those that rush in to fight the engi while completely ignoring the turrets, and those people deserve to die to this.

I have often wondered that. Why people feel its dps is so absurd. 1400 every 4 seconds really isnt that… amazing if you ask me. its okay though. And its not that hard to kill unless you’re a condi player, in which case you have the advantage over the engineer itself.

Psychotic froglion man.

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Shaogin.2679:

Terrorsquad.2349:

The only thing in my opinion that needs to be toned down on turret engi is the Knockdown duration and the rocket turret’s damage

You do things like this though and you start to mess with builds that may take a turret but are not full turrets, all for no legitimate reason.

What do you mean? Sorry, don’t understand :p

Well Rocket Turret already isn’t very durable. If someone were attempting to use it in a build that isn’t a turret build, having it nerfed would make the possibilities of such a build less viable. If there were legitimate reasons to nerf it then sure, but nerfing the possible use of turrets in other builds simply because people don’t like playing against full turret builds is an illogical decision.

It’s easier to look at warriors. Pretty much every warrior build got hammered because of Hambow back in the day. All of the adrenaline nerfs, Healing signet, etc. Arguably not needed for other builds, but they were generic enough to affect many.

alwaysbluffme.6890:

Yep turret engis are op vs pugs http://imgur.com/a/Hc6q6

Lol exactly. I do like the kitten from one of the engies though. :P

Seems like a stretch. I think you’re undervaluing the protective part of Fear. Also, I’d venture to say because of AI mechanics and slows, you probably won’t even have that much damage from it, it’ll probably end up more like a glorified pull rather than a push.

Its more of a side step than a nerf, I guess… On one hand, you can’t run in and pretend nothing matters.

But on the other hand, you can force suppress a condition burst.

evilapprentice.6379:

Taunt as they’ve described it sounds asinine. A CC effect that can
A) Cause a player to eat more damage from torment
B) Cause a player to eat more damage from confusion
C) Potentially cause a player to eat more damage from Retal
C) Waste “on swing” charges (such as venoms)
D) Control a players path, potentially forcing them to walk into traps (literal traps/marks, off of ledges in skyhammer, swinging into a ele with shock field up, etc)

And that’s all just off the top of my head having read this article moments ago. I’m sure there are a couple of other scenario’s I’ve missed.

Taunt should have been handled it like it was in WAR (Warhammer online: Age of reckoning). Taunt should have been a debuff that reduced your outgoing damage by 50% until you hit the taunting target X times, or until the duration was up. That’s a well designed taunt.

What Anet has proposed is a poor imitation.

Most of that applies to Fear too, the trade off is that fear doesn’t take damage.

style.6173:

What’s the point of complaining about engis? ANET has made them OP for a long time.

First was the decap engi.
Second came the turret engi
Third is the nade spamming rifle engi

They fixed the first, so people moved to the second and the third. They fix the second and everyone will play the third.

It is a broken class. It needs an overhaul.

Those aren’t even firsts. HGH and there were a few other 1 shot builds too.

xDudisx.5914:

Shiyo.3578:

xDudisx.5914:

Shiyo.3578:

No, they encourage bad habits and playstyles. Pets/turrets/etc should be soley for utility.

Because you want? Summoner playstyle is as legit as any other.

No, because it’s better for the future of the game if pets/turrets aren’t a viable form of damage since they’re uncontrolled damage.

Do you have anything to prove your assumptions? How do you know what is better for the future of the game? For me it looks like it is just your own opinion. What is good or bad is subjective.

Exactly this. In many games Summoning type classes require an excess of skill, are some of the most unique classes and above all, are just fun to play. GW2 could use more active play with pets, there’s really no denying that. I’ve been pushing for MMs to have less passive damage and more put into their actives for a while now. Its just not in the resources or care for the devs it seems. Unfortunately, it wouldn’t matter anyways because as it stands, AOE, Bugs and AI are complete MM killers regardless, something you probably wouldn’t understand unless you played it rather than having only an outside-looking-in view- Shiyo.

Phaeton.9582:

taunt sounds lame. the rest is cool though.

Taunt in the way it’s being used is a VERY fun mechanic from experience. It works how taunts worked in Bloodline Champions, and it was freaking awesome. It’s SLIGHTLY different, but mostly the same. I think it’ll have neat combos with confusion stacking.

There’s a bit of irony in the fact that in MOST cases, people say it makes them lazier, but the reality is… Its actually “harder” to make them work then a ‘normal’ build. Just for instance. I got talked into YOLOing the 2v2 tourney the other day and I just haven’t done much practice on various builds since I came back, so I ran turrets just for the giggles. And they threw an absolute HISSY FIT. Supposedly good players throwing complete fits… That was annoying enough. We beat them once, but ultimately lost 1v2 and still came pretty close to winning 2-1, but I wasn’t mad. Everyone was all “wiping the planet of scum” and other really rude things.

Here’s the catch… They got a pass on the “no stalling” rules set a long time ago. They just kept running behind pillars and circling the outsides and fleeing, and I personally didn’t feel right doing the same so we wen’t a bit more aggressive because I was pretty sure if we stood behind a wall with turrets we’d get called out for turtling… We still ended up downing them (though they got the rez) and with my turrets on the opposite side of the map. We basically beat them with me just running a rifle a large part of the time and no real utilities, and he was forced to run a squishy amulet.

Point being, it can actually be harder to be effective with these things than without if you’re not 100% confined to a point, especially against ranged players, yet everyone gets up in arms and down right vile, and can’t see the illusion they’re placing on themselves. They showered me with “terrible garbage players” and comments of the like and didn’t realize they lost to someone essentially not having utilities because of how easy it was to cheese them… And we still were able to kill them…

Personally, I just think a lot of the community has grown toxic and don’t even understand half of what they complain about anymore. But unfortunately, the players aren’t the only ones. Some of the ANet staff can be equally rude, and that really goes to show you how little they care about aspects of their own game when they can make fun of builds players use in their OWN game… That’s all I have to say. I still play because I can have fun, but I’ve grown a pretty big distaste for certain sections of the community and its entitlements, and now even some of the staff which acts very similarly.

Thanks for reading!

Necromancers already have upkeep. Its called Death shroud. :P Gotta pop some spectrals or warhorn before going in! And #4!

I can’t wait to kitten people off with taunt.

Here’s my problem with nerfing the Turrets trait. I get why it can be annoying, I really do. And maybe it needs to be buffed and only happen when you explode your turrets yourself, but- Its one of the very few things that can actually count as a skill gap for turrets. Using your heal offensively as an interrupt etc. It has skill involved, which is very scarce as a turreteer. :S

Novuake.2691:

ronpierce.2760:

Obtena.7952:

Too bad Anet can’t nerf noobs that need to L2P.

Yeah, it’s impossible for anything to be over tuned. I’m growing pretty bitter of this Engineer community. Every single one including top tier has absolutely no perspective of the potency of things they can do. I mean, IP for example. Every engineer is so sure it’s totally fine.

Back when Dhuumfire was nuts the necro community was just as in awe as everyone else and begging for it to be contained. I’ll just leave you guys to your agendas and let you continue your illusions that it’s just your own skill allowing you to play effectively and that it has nothing to do with ability potencies and I’ll play turrets because it’s fun and interesting to me regardless of my feelings that it is a bit too good in ways.

It’s not really worth arguing over, but I’ve not seen a class so dismissive…

IP is one of the only things I feel need a nerf, i have been saying it for a while. Please do not generalize.

Sorry, I was getting frustrated.

xDudisx.5914:

ronpierce.2760:

I really don’t actually. There is an amount of objectiveness to the lack of counter-ability of low cooldown instant attacks when the design philosophy of the game is to read your enemy and react. This is the deflective and hostile attitude I was talking about forever ago. I’m totally incredible now because I have a strong sense of knowing what I’m talking about, and I won’t “bend” because people are overly defensive of their class. There are a lot of people who didn’t want or think Dhuumfire needed to change, too. Same with the old Hambow, and so forth. That doesn’t mean suddenly opposition of those specs and specific abilities in question had to stop because someone said “no you’re wrong, its fine”. I have no REASON to “bend”. I know what I’m talking about because I do it myself. It’s incredibly potent and easy and in my OPINION far too much. I get angry when people instantly start with this “l2p I’m fine, you don’t know anything and you’re too demanding” junk. It has been proven time and time again all of these people who think they’re great aren’t actually that great and don’t have proper understanding of their classes when brought down to a reasonable level and decide to jump ship. I’m very willing to bend, if presented with arguments on why I’m wrong. I’ve had nothing but angry people tell me how wrong I am since I got here and how I need to learn to play, when I’m describing what I’m personally doing to other players… How can I even take people seriously when they don’t even display decent reading comprehension?

The op asked a engi nerf in the engis subforum. The great majority will just read nerf+engi and say no.

If this was posted in the spvp subforum the replies would be different. Just look at the several threads made asking a nerf to IP.

Eh, I was hoping the engi community had a bit more ability to discuss itself than what has become apparent. It’s strange how various classes are a bit more open to their own mechanics for discussion more-so than others. Oh well.

I really don’t actually. There is an amount of objectiveness to the lack of counter-ability of low cooldown instant attacks when the design philosophy of the game is to read your enemy and react. This is the deflective and hostile attitude I was talking about forever ago. I’m totally incredible now because I have a strong sense of knowing what I’m talking about, and I won’t “bend” because people are overly defensive of their class. There are a lot of people who didn’t want or think Dhuumfire needed to change, too. Same with the old Hambow, and so forth. That doesn’t mean suddenly opposition of those specs and specific abilities in question had to stop because someone said “no you’re wrong, its fine”. I have no REASON to “bend”. I know what I’m talking about because I do it myself. It’s incredibly potent and easy and in my OPINION far too much. I get angry when people instantly start with this “l2p I’m fine, you don’t know anything and you’re too demanding” junk. It has been proven time and time again all of these people who think they’re great aren’t actually that great and don’t have proper understanding of their classes when brought down to a reasonable level and decide to jump ship. I’m very willing to bend, if presented with arguments on why I’m wrong. I’ve had nothing but angry people tell me how wrong I am since I got here and how I need to learn to play, when I’m describing what I’m personally doing to other players… How can I even take people seriously when they don’t even display decent reading comprehension?

You can not like it a you want, but I’m entitled to feel definitive on my views and perspectives. I suggest them because I know what I take advantage of in fights and what I feel might be unfair. Specifically that the game is all about telegraphs and responding to visuals, both of rifles most potent abilities happen to be CCs without a telegraph or proper reaction time. That’s unneccessary and very specific issue I see, and that’s what the thread is about, abilities found over powered. I don’t really agree with all of the OP’s list, and the difference between me and a lot of other people is I know you don’t fix a build with just nerfs but trade offs and readjustments.

I know I come off as forceful, but that’s because I’m confident in my own assessments of what specific pieces I feel too potent. Unfortunately (as a turret engineer) I feel instsnt i telegraphed low cooldown CC don’t allow for proper counter play, and the protection uptime because of thumper is too much. Instead of just adding an animation and possibly reworking the thumper boon, I feel they could benefit from better projectile accuracy, turrets that have a better reduced CD for relocation if you physically pick them up, etc.

I wouldn’t go out if my way to say something is overpowered or unneccessary without having an understanding of it first. In this case, I do, and two short ccs with no animation on a single weapon, to me, screams obvious issue to me. I get people don’t like being nerfed and hate how blunt I am, but it is what it is. It’s not subjective in a sense of “i feel” so and so, it’s actually objectively counter to their design philosophies of reactionary game play and telegraphed attacks.

I’m not JUST picking on engies. Signet of spite got similar treatment. I still don’t agree with how many instant attacks Elementalists have with scepter for the same reasons. I am just a little less focused on them because fresh air Eles aren’t really as common atm, but I still would prefer them to have cast times and readjust their damage accordingly to support having less instant stackable attacks.

Point is, I’m not singling out anyone. This just so happens to be an engineer specific thread and I weighed in on what I have experienced to be a bit too good, and I’m very sure of my assessment.

Also, I’m not mad at all about necro? I’ve said that the community for Necromancers have been a bit more honest about their own abilities they felt were too potent without enough counter play. Necromancer are, in my opinion, a decent spot. I feel some should come down to their level and some could use to come up to their level. I’d consider them one of the more fair (but not underpowered) classes.

You can have a niche without it being over the top. Being told your goal is to avoid damage and CC that doesn’t mean any amount of CC you could possibly get is okay. Back to the necro, condition necromancer sare supposed to pressure and cover people in conditions. But thst didnt make Dhuumfire okay… You can still do things TOO well. It’s in the interest of the community and the class itself, and even the game to be more honest, though. If you can’t see a single issue with engineer in sPvP there is clearly and issue. They have two of the most effective builds in the game right now. You don’t land in that place by just abiding by balancing philosophies…

Seemed logical. I find it hard to call Scepter a legit ranged weapon. i think it could be fun.

Obtena.7952:

Too bad Anet can’t nerf noobs that need to L2P.

Yeah, it’s impossible for anything to be over tuned. I’m growing pretty bitter of this Engineer community. Every single one including top tier has absolutely no perspective of the potency of things they can do. I mean, IP for example. Every engineer is so sure it’s totally fine.

Back when Dhuumfire was nuts the necro community was just as in awe as everyone else and begging for it to be contained. I’ll just leave you guys to your agendas and let you continue your illusions that it’s just your own skill allowing you to play effectively and that it has nothing to do with ability potencies and I’ll play turrets because it’s fun and interesting to me regardless of my feelings that it is a bit too good in ways.

It’s not really worth arguing over, but I’ve not seen a class so dismissive…

Also, all of that said, once that stuff happened they might be able to fix some other issue we have as a trade off. Like reducing turret cooldown when picked much more so that we can pick them up and play the field better or fight back if caught off point without giving up so much. And a fix for bugs with some abilities landing properly. Things like that.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Nothing you stated there suggest they are OP in any particular aspect that deserves a nerf of any kind. Yet you are championing a call to nerf turret engineers?

Not necessarily to turrets, except I do feel they could use more damage shifted to them and a little less passive, but rifle in general and it’s CC opportunity is a bit too high OR easy to execute (via no casts). I played necro for 2 years and I’ve never been more effective than I am now. I’ve carried courtyard games 0-500 because pass Aoe fury/retal/protection and Aoe CC if we stick to a spot. I can hold a spot against two people for a long time and often manage to sweep it. I’ve had (probably 3?) successful 1v3s. And most of the reason I can do this is high CC and I don’t have to focus on damage myself at ALL or worry about pathing issues of pets to get the job done. I can say from playing it, it’s a bit much and does things not very many other builds could even dream of doing. And the bigger part is, it doesn’t have s lot of buttons to watch for.

Now, I don’t think it needs obliterated like some do. In fact that’s why I support nerfing it in the right way, I love playing Turrets. A little less CC or less easy to execute. Maybe a bit less easy dps but find a way to balance it out so the engi does a bit more himself in these set ups. (like instead of turret damage increase from the trait, personal damage increAse per turret out, capped).

I just think it’s smarter to be honest with ourselves and give up a little for balance sake, rather than end up over nerfed and suffer like Eles did once, and Hambow and the massive issues that the nerfs from the build brought on the entire warrior class.

I don’t play glass, but glass does have issues with it. (Thief/mesmer) Probably a few others. Mostly because showing their face, even if I’m cced, it’s too much counter pressure. Most of my 1v2s involved at least 1 glass mostly melee character. Then I’d just kill the other in a simple 1v1 fashion. I’ve actually need both necto types struggle with me to my surprise. But that may just be bad condi necros. I don’t see enough to know for sure.

Unless you are talking about me personally. I tend to try to avoid them on my appear necro. My Mm can kill them if my pets aren’t stupid but 90% of the time literally they won’t engage properly… I avoid them as raw power unless I have very high life force to soak damage and kill the rocket. If I can manage that it’s okay, otherwise I get bounced around a lot. Wells and dagger can take down turrets fast if they get stacked but smarties don’t do that.

coglin.1867:

ronpierce.2760:

I’m PLAYING the turret engineer. I have done various 1v3s and many more 1v2s. XD Why are you not reading what I’m saying…

So can you easily deal with turret engineers yourself easily, when you encounter them or do they generally defeat you or run you off?

As Turret engi myself or something else? I win most turret on turret fights because I kill the rocket then chain CC the other engi who doesn’t have as much pressure anymore and one less CC. I try to place my own in spots less likely to get focused down. Doesn’t always work but that’s what I shoot for. A lot of turret engineers don’t understand what makes themselves powerful, they just try to roll around a lot and let the turrets do the work, which seems to happen a lot, but that doesn’t mean higher potential isn’t there.

There can be a lot of fun things you can do with turret engi many don’t think about, like healing on top of a stealthed down body to Aoe interrupt rezzes, immobing the reser then overcharge shooting the downed player out of range, then focusing fire on the rezzer so they don’t or can’t try again, sometimes leading to two downed players. From that point you can just let your turrets plink them and let them bleed out, and if one is on the point overcharge shoot their body off the point and keep stalling their death. It can be wildly effective.

I’m PLAYING the turret engineer. I have done various 1v3s and many more 1v2s. XD Why are you not reading what I’m saying…

That’s what I meant all along. I was suggesting it’s uptime was too high for no risk, the risk was implied as being no cast and instant, that’s why I pointed out those facts. Uptime would also drop not only as a result of a tell, but a cast time would technically add to its re-use time. In the process it could use some connection fixes and maybe even added velocity to fix some of the obstruction issues it hits.

It never got to those points of discussion because it turned hostile too fast. I said it was too good of a set up because it had all of those perks combined, and doesn’t need nerfed in every angle, but it does need some sort of counter play other than just out-ranging it or abusing it’s obstruction issues. If you improve those it does become rather too potent in its current implication.

Just for instance, as turrets. I’ve decapped far before and backup came, standing on the edge I instantly immobilized them about 200u from the point. Because they can’t dodge roll if I successfully land it, overcharge shot near the end and start my rocket turret. Unless it’s one of the few with a ccbreak+ stability, the rocket can knock them down again and shortly after I can attempt to immob again. I’ve secured so many decaps and caps by timing my ccs in order that for many builds it could be considered relatively hard to counter. Not to mention, many times those people are pretty close to read if they aren’t tanky, but not often do people send tanks to contest me. Then I still have a thumper. Which chains well with the immob too.

Goodness grief… I’ve been playing more turret engi recently than Mm, just so you know. It’s quicker to fill tracks with.

There is clearly no explaining to you, you’re in hyper defensive mode. There’s no sense in explaining it to you. But I was suggesting in terms of real time use and how people actually play these builds, not napkin math in which you think flurry is somehow more problematic than netshot.

Also, it’s an “absurd” (objectively speaking) point OF these meta/winning builds.

But alas, you’re not here for discussion. You don’t want to give anything up, and that’s fine I guess. But there’s a kitten good reason Celest Rifle engi and Turrets run Rifle and not pistol/shield or pistol/pistol.

The major reasons being Overcharged Shot and Net shot. No cast time makes them incredibly easy to execute and not interruptable, and if used in close range hardly avoidable (especially following a knockdown like overcharged shot, slick shoes, a thumper turret, rocket turret, and so on).

Build diversity is hard here because, and I’m just being honest:
1.) Top tier players focus on the absolute “best” and when considering esports, those are the builds focused on. Everything else takes a backseat. They basically become display builds for the classes. They tend to make too insignificant of changes to underperforming builds to change that unless something is fret over nerfed. (With some exceptions, dhuumfire was a bit out of left field.)

2.) Low tier PvP keeps a lot of build diversity from happening because it’s taboo for a high skill floor to be overly effective, despite its high tier effectiveness. So instead of increasing the skill cap, it’s often handled with a “kill it with fire” by the community, and that also tends to be the easiest on developers because it’s not easy to rebalance fairly, pushing something out of use though is much easier.

3.) Some abilities require far too much investment to be use outside of a traited “obvious” spec, for example Spirits, Minions, Meditations, to an extent warrior Shouts, Spirit weapons, most thief venoms except maybe the immobilize and elite.

These skills are too lack luster to use much of in normal builds and require too much investment to make them worthy, so you end up with “all of nothing” niche builds or they’re otherwise not often very utilized.

That is opposed to other skills that fit in ANYwhere, such as Spectral Armor (even though I feel it’s a bit lacuster, it requires no traits for effectiveness), stances, decoy/blink, shadow step and refuge.

There are many skills that are too potent and don’t require traits to be effective allowing the person to focus on themselves and I feel it keeps a lot of abilities out of general use.

My 2 cents!

I think you’re ignoring the part where I’ve been playing the Engineer coming to this conclusion. Turret Engies and Celest Rifle Engies are both two of the most absurd builds in the game. I find it hard to deny that point.

Also, there is a lot more practicality to Net Shot to Flurry. For one, it’s not used very frequently considering combustion shot is usually preferred to ensure condition removal. Additionally, Adrenaline has to be built, very rarely is it feasible to use a tier 3 flurry every 10 seconds. In fact it doest happen at all. It’s also melee with practically the worst mechanics. And warriors start with 0, net has no build up and is easily accessible.

Warriors are also nothing compared to the potency of the said above builds. The most notable warrior build (that even uses flurry) is Shoutbow, and doesn’t have even close to half the CC as engi and is hated for (possibly valid) other reasons, namely ease of play and heal potency.

Also, it’s set up potential is higher than average not because it’s an immobilize, it’s becuase its a no risk-10 second cooldown. You can set up frequently and soon again on a failed attempt. Hell a missed flurry wastes all of your adrenaline, even.