Guild Wars 2

Rolyate.6753:

I really do believe vigor should be removed and classes should be balanced around having far less dodges available.

Obviously something needs to be done about AI spam and effects spam, but it would create so much more depth throughout the game.

If you want to go down this road then fine. But give us higher amount of armor, give us reliable ways to remove conditions, hell.. Give us 10s condition immunity, give us also an utility that makes us take no damage for x mount of time. How about that?

You have to understand that what we are saying here is that we are fine if they’re trying to reduce dodges overall, which will also reduce the amount of clones created. They should think in giving something back in return of that, its not like mesmers are any good at the moment, pretty much the worst class besides Ele currently.
What we’re REALLY not ok with is them completely destroying all semi-viable builds with the DE change and only pushing us to ONE single build which is already completely crap in competitive play ! Making us even easier to be countered against, it limit even MORE our mobility, and erase any room for quick reactions !

Exactly as Marsares said, the problem is not trying to nerf the clone on death issue.. but they just choose the wrong approach, completely destroying one of the core mechanics that mesmers use!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

whoah, you guys are both hardcore PvE and sPvP !!! O_O

i hardly do fractals nowadays, unless there is a monthly for it.
even normal dungeons i am not that keen, currently 2/10 for this month dungeon monthly. i.e. i still need 8 cof path 1 runs on 8 separate days to clear that one. maybe i will not be bothered to get 10/10 on that as well.

as for fractals, i only did 25 fractal once after the big fractal update, the rest were all under level 20 as i deem level 20 and above to be too time consuming for me.

anyway, warriors are balanced in sPvP, why are the warrior haters still complaining?

Would you please just stop? Its honestly getting old…

Syndarin Eledhwen.6513:

-Another example is the terrain unevenness. F.e. I get attacked outside of the clocktower, dodge, then go into the clocktower, and now can not use one of my clones, because he is outside (or stuck on a different position). Now even if I dodge multiple times inside the clocktower, my first shatter will only contain a very very low number of useful clones. It could be possible, that the whole shatter is wastes, because the clones are stuck somewhere.

So let me quote this again since for some people it wasn’t clear enough how the mechanic works. Please read carefully the example above and then re-think how this change will affect mesmers, especially the already very weak spec which is shatter, not to mention probably the secondary most weak profession at the moment.

And comeback to me with a decent answer on how this will play out instead of “lol mesmer 2 stronk nerf”.

Now i’ll put another scenario. Say that you’re running to a node and you get engaged by a thief. So you guys battle for a while and you’ve your clones up since you already blew some dodges and distortion (probably from when he backstabbed you). Now lets say this thief goes into stealth and waits…. Now unless you waste a shatter or simply waits around your clones (to make use of them), whenever you move away from them you are simply a sitting duck… because guess what? your clones are far away, but probably not far enough for them to dissapear on their own. And now you add how much EASY it is already for a thief to completely destroy a mesmer. You get the picture?

Now imagine you’re trying to get someone who’s on a run with a quick shatter such as dodge close the guy and shatter the kitten out of him. Oh wait you can’t do that now? Your clones are running behind the guy with their aweful speed in your last shatter remember? Right.

I honestly couldn’t agree with you more in all of the points.

Please lets keep posting and discussing this until some Dev who has a slight grasp of competitive PvP in gw2 understands it and prevent this change from happening.

I’ve played mesmer since forever in tpvp and soloqueue and i can say that i don’t like this changes…

First of all i completely agree with Countless when it comes to straigth up nerfing the vigor from shatters, they could have just put this trait high above somewhere in master or grandmaster.. instead they just nerfed it forcing you to go into chaos tree.

Second of all, the deceptive evasion change is a trully nerf in the class… any experienced mesmer (except if you’re playing PU which Anet is forcing us to now) knows how much of a pain is to fight thiefs, or anything if you can’t use your clones to block attacks (longbow warriors). And also as Helseth mentioned, how i’m supposed to daze a thief who just popped on me without investing 30 points in the Illusions tree now?

That change will “shave” as Anet likes to put it, any build outside PU. Where is the build diversity ? And you’re forcing mesmers to play one of the most cheese and low skill floor specs from mesmers. Needless to say that one of the main issues with mesmers which outside their teleports, they’re slow as kitten, haven’t been addressed yet.

Arena net, what the kitten ?

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

bubberducky.3420:

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Honestly Helseth might be a great mesmer player but he doesn’t seem to have any idea about eles. Burning speed change doing nothing? LOL.

He doesn’t say it is worthless. He said it is a worthless change in respect to the power creep. Stop taking things out of context, you are literally a problem.

You are literally using literally wrong. Whatever your point maybe…

He mentioned its not a big impact to change eles bringing them back to the meta, which he is right…

I agree with everything Helseth said to be honest. I’m just sad to see soon the only viable (and rather boring as kitten) build for mesmers will be with PU. Although if the sigils on 2h come across without nerfs i can see some kittened builds who will be strong with GS/Staff. Really don’t like the change on deceptive evasion…………………………………… for the same reasons it was mentioned by Helseth honestly.

Skill unlocks are just bad for the game health…

Gokitten it Grouch, i thought this was about having a Ready Up button before the queue pops in solo/team arena, and if the guy does not Ready Up within 10 seconds it drops the queue so that there is not so many afkers and 5v4s happening.

You trolled me :-(

Stopped soloq because of skyhammer and spirit watch, so now i just soloqueue in team queue or I just don’t play at all.

Stopped soloq because of skyhammer and spirit watch, so now i just soloqueue in team queue or I just don’t play at all.

Pretty much you summed the problems with the current state to be honest.

Warriors have way to much room for errors in sustain.
Passive builds shouldn’t be more powerful then active builds, such as MM Necro, Spirit Ranger, and to some degree the Healing Signet from warriors.
Along with the above point, comes the screen cluster due far to many pets.
Guardians still king for team fights, access to far to many stability and AoE cleanse & healing.

Once you bring the above down, the old burst thief, elementalist & mesmer will come up again, and then a necessary damage overall needs to be brought down.

Mike.4830:

Qaelyn.7612:

Mike.4830:

Seeing as i am R5 Solo q on one account and r50 solo Q on this acc…

(Snip remainder of laughable bragging about prowess in a video game.. we’re all so, so impressed.)

Now all you need to do is get on the leaderboard that measures how to interact with other human beings in a reasonable manner.

Ever consider that what works at the higher ranks of the solo queue might not work for more average players?

Your giving players advice by saying never push far, thats terrible… If your team loses the 4v4 thats not your fault, that being said it doesnt always make sense to push far, accessing your teams comp as well as your own role, but in a lot of cases pushing far isnt a bad idea…. For instance if you play gaurd or soldier warrior or spirit ranger Mid is probably the best place for you to “carry” but if you play roles such as engis thiefs or mesmers pushing far and winning that will be the best path to success for your team, AND the notion that you should never push far is completely wrong… This post was made to teach players how to be successful in solo q. I think that accessing your role as well as the rest of your team is the most important and then working from there. Telling players to not push far is wrong for a lot of players and builds, pushing far is the best bet.. That being said , if you are not successful pushing far then you probably shouldnt. My advice is that you talk with your team before the game starts, and one of the best ways to push far and still give your team a good chance at mid is to tell your team to all go mid, so you can cap home and still push far. (sorry for bad english and syntax im not english speaker)

Don’t think you understood the OP. He meant after you just won middle to have 1-2 people pushing far is not a good idea unless one of them is a bunker & decapper who can sustain a lot, basically because you’ll get all the respawns from that middle fight that will most likely kill you at far.
If you’re in a coordinated enough team IF you get the decap at far which usually should happen before the middle fight is completely over (after you downed 1 or 2 guys and got enough cleave on them and there is nobody able to ress them), then is a good idea to keep sending bunkers or rotating them to always keep far node contested. Which is not the case with solo queue since the 1-2 players pushing far are NOT in the spec/role for it, they just go there because they think it is the right thing to do regardless of spec/role/whatever.

What you said you usually do, is to push far from the beginning which is a good idea if your spec/role is focused for it… especially if you win your fight, which apparently you do, so you’ll always leave your team at a good position as you described in your first post.

There is nothing wrong with both notions, its just reading interpretation issues mostly.

There is some kind of bug that if you take the portal while immobilized you can’t move at all, even after the immobilize is gone! I’ve tried to blink/phase retreat and even waypoint to the spawn and still couldn’t move… the only way to get rid of it is to relog or go back to character screen selection.

This is VERY annoying since portal is used for a escape way.. and if you can’t move at all you’re an easy pray… its really annoying. Please take a look at it.

Cheers,

JonathanSharp.7094:

DiogoSilva.7089:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Yes, we’re also looking at the other classes in relation to the current iteration of the Warrior and how they vie for spaces in the meta.

If we bring down Warrior slightly, we’ll also need to adjust other things to make sure they’re also not too strong.

Also, we want to shave most things down, instead of just running around with a “buff” stick. That’s how you get a lot of power creep, and it’s something a lot of you, very astutely, have pointed out – we need to avoid that.

Keep your eyes peeled for another post later today where we expound on a lot of this type of stuff.

I agree with this. I think buffs should only come to skills that are clumsy or inefficient. Even though the elementalist is currently the worst class for pvp, I would actually wish for its instant-burst damage to be toned down (which, in my opinion, should be done by adding a " damagedelay" to arcane skills, so that they wouldn’t be nerfed outside of pvp or even outside of this build). It would be interesting to see all classes have their strongest options “shaved” in the next balance patch.

BTW, when can we except the next wave of changes? In 2 weeks?

December. I’ll give out more details later.

I definitely agree with this methodology but ever since pre-pax balance changes all you’ve done is overbuffed certain classes to counter some other, creating the power creep we have today… So please excuse me if i’m sceptical about it..

And to be honest i’m afraid your balancing would be much easier and better if you could release patches every other week, especially when you create something as destructive to the game as warriors state at the moment, how they’re intentionally not losing adrenaline when they miss their skills and so on. Same with spirits cooldown starting from the cast time, not when they were killed, same with sigil of paralyzation, svanir bug and so many other things. And if the explanation is that it does not depend entirely on you (balance team) to get things done and it takes literally 2-3 months to have those things changed, this game will never be esports material, or even competitive at all.

CC Danicia.1394:

Also note that if the discussion does not stay civil or constructive, we’ll close the post.

Will you close the post ? Or the whole thread ?

We as players cannot control other players, in a lot of closed or moved threads there was a huge amount of good feedback which is what decent players try to post after big complaints. I understand the need of modding, but how about you mod and move/delete the post and not the entire thread when the main text is not offensive or against the code of conduct (in reference to Xeph’s thread when it was deemed acceptable by John himself for example).

My 2 cents..

Allie, Facebook?

Lordrosicky.5813:

Zanthrax.6538:

Lordrosicky.5813:

….The mesmer and ele dps is way too high. Once you remove the sword thief (ele/mesmer cant win this) and necro/ranger dominance then you will have another broken and lame meta where mesmer and ele damage is way too high for all the extra things they can provide….

@Devs I highlighted the part that I feel you need to reconsider….you mentioned ele and mesmer are in a good spot once we tone down the condi damage which counters them so, however from our experience as a PvP Playerbase we know that the moment condi damage is reduced and the specs that counter these 2 professions get toned down these 2 professions of Mesmer and Ele will become the new brokenly OP profession in the meta because of their burst capabilities.

With all due respect, if you do intend to JUST nerf condi damage etc please be ready and I sincerely mean this, be ready to roll out quick fixes of tiny changes to mesmer and ele prior to the sept 17th patch, simple tweaks like this need to happen frequently in large disparity meta games. To give an example with the Elementalist. When specs that counter them get toned down they are now in a position to run their usual fresh air s/d or s/f burst builds, the issue with said burst setup majority of it is off the global cooldown so chainable quite quickly together, and above that the cooldown for fresh air and similar burst capabilities is quite low which I don’t have a problem with but its burst damage is too high for its low cooldown and off the global cooldown capabilities.

I hope you take this advice under consideration and if you don’t I would sincerely appreciate perhaps chatting to us on SOTG why you feel ele and mesmer’s burst isn’t too much given the apparent condi nerfs etc. Thank you for your time.

Wow someone else gets it :O Not to mention ele damage on downed players is the best there is by a mile.

Agreed. I main a mesmer (Select Start in EU, Ninesevensix Evil in NA) and i can safely say that GS damage is a bit to high when we’re free to attack from safety – which is why thiefs are a big issue against us at the moment (free engage and disengage at will plus a kitten ton of evades and sustain), and lack of condi clear makes us very weak against condition focus. But we definitely need some/better ways to get condition clearance and a bit of mobility i’d say.

Regarding fresh air i wouldn’t say its a game breaking damaging skill, but i believe what people is complaining about is due the fact that it cannot be telegraphed/countered, and this is a main issue for the whole game – we need to see things in order to react.

And of course the things i mentioned should be applied only after the other things that the OP mentioned.

Supiiiiiiiiiiiiiiriorrrrrrrrrrrrr

+1 Bry, completely agree.

No & 15 chars……..

gwawer.9805:

Many complaints about the game, especially lack of support for SPVP. We were promised so much during the game’s release, but after a year still feel much is lacking. Whining and complaining legitimately about features that we expect to be in the game. Just look at the cesspool of dissatisfaction in the SPVP forums. Would it be such a mess if the PVPer’s expectations weren’t set so high?

Imagine a publishing house marketing a novel as the next 1000 page classikittenerature, when the author is not a literary genius. The result is a bunch of dissatisfied readers. The author is either happily rolling in the cash, or he is distraught being unable to deliver genius writing.

What if the developers can only work so fast, and the marketing publishing department set the bar way too high, impossible to reach? Was the marketing of GW2 irresponsible to both the customers and the developers?

That’s not the main point. The speed and rate which the features are being delivered are in most people’s opinion being to slow.. that’s true but also not the main point.

Its the features they’ve added, especially the balance changes in which they worked, are completely the opposite of what the community wanted and gave their faithful feedback to. This is the main point and there is no excuse for that to be honest.

hash.6287:

Longbow? Try to kill something only with longbow. Have fun.

You said warriors get kited while having stuns and a ranged weapon, and you reply me how hard is to kill someone with a longbow? Wow that makes sense.

hash.6287:

Warrior can be easily kited all day. You must be in range to do damage. Spirit ranger doesn’t have to.

Longbow…………..

Connor Wilson.1964:

-.- kill me now lol read my discribtion please i put i can master any class fast i dont wana class just because its easy and i can master it in 2-3 days

Unfortunately the best 1v1 classes are the ones that forgive you the most, since if your opponent do a good job and stop your rotation, within a couple seconds you can do it all over again, or you can sustain long enough to do it over again… which is why spirit rangers are there – because it is the most forgiving class for mistakes (or when you’re at times outplayed). But better then spirit rangers is a warrior imo, axe/mace and longbow i’d say. Their passive heal signet makes them the best… (yes, one utility makes them the best 1v1 class in the game, its that stupid…), then you add in berserk stance (10s immunity to conditions – which is the most used in the meta right now), decent toughness & blocks (against power based builds) and with longbow you got very good amount of condi clear as well… then you got a very big amount of CCs you can bring which destroy sustain classes and voilá, a hell of an easy class to play with counters to literally everything..

The game was complete garbage, not due teams but because it was boring as kitten to watch AIs doing all the work and people spamming condis without any depth play in it. The current meta is trash and so is pvp currently, but we all know that i’m pretty sure…

Allie Murdock.8152:

More posting = less features.

Exactly what we need. The latest features and balancing completely broke the game.

More listening (as in communicating over all with the community, which also requires posting) = better balancing, which will eventually lead to better features.

jmatb.6307:

Ya I added a section where everybody gets a friend or teammate to run the copy+paste builds in duels so they can get used to the training they’ll inevitably see.

S/D thief does train hard. I’ve found though, that even on mesmer, once you’ve faced the build enough you know when to CC and shatter quickly. If you duel on the rotation maps at mid you’ll get that familiarity with them in the most relevant way to.

Is it a strong 1v1 spec? Yes. Is it invincible? No.

If you can end up winning the duels with it, then you’ve just evolved into a better player

I definitely agree with you, i’m not saying its 100% loss ratio to the mesmer, anything can happen because we’re also talking about the player’s skill which will help define the outcome of the fight. The issue here is, while the S/D thief is keeping you busy, they got a necro and an engineer nuking your guardian/warrior/elementalist, while you’re not able to pop your very good range burst.. besides you’ll also never be able to kill any decent S/D thief because he can reset the fight at will – anytime. So even if you do better then him he’ll just disengage. And if you’re somewhat low or have some condis on you due fighting triple range condi classes such as ranger, engineer and necro in the mid fight. He’ll just pop right back at you with basilisk when you don’t have your cooldowns and you’re down – a complete liability for your team due your lack of sustain when you compare with every single other class out there.

Just continuing my rant about why mesmers are not viable in team fights due their lack of sustain:

If you add to all of that the amount of sustain that engineer/ranger/necro/guardian/thiefs have in comparison its not even funny the amount of times i’ve went to a team fight and downed 2 players and they still managed to get themselfs ressed and healed up and then owning me.

Shadow Refugee only way to prevent stab stomps, very good skill in a very low cooldown.
Elixir R, goes without saying this gives an amazing sustain and pretty much a second life either for him and can also be very good used to ress multiple people.
Spirit of Nature i’ll not comment because we all know how kittened that is and how strong it is even when not activated to ress it still helps a huge load.
Necromansers once they’re going low they go into plague form which is also immense because all your “burst” will be negated to him.
Warriors have immense sustain right now with berserker stance and the signet heal.

So as i was trying to mention before, the way that the mesmer can viable is keeping pressure, but against those classes there is just no way to do it.

Sorry for long post, but i’m a frustrated mesmer – open way.

jmatb.6307:

Update: I tweaked the Mesmer and Ele builds to be a lot more aggressive, because the Guardian will benefit from harder hitting range than support and cleanse shatters.

Cleanse shatters can be useful, but if it requires someone getting on top of the Guardian the whole time then any time there isn’t you’re at a disadvantage, so I acknowledge that. Illusionary Persona still requires gap closing, so I went with the huge AoE Diversion trait because we’re already denying boons so why not smother them with CC when they aren’t built to handle it? Faster shatters and illusion cooldowns too.

The staff Ele is using Valks/Zerker with Fresh Air so that you can hit them with Lightning Surge and a couple autos between Fire for more damage. This will increase your damage output in 1v1 too, especially if you have strong command of the CC the build has. There is a big difference in this style of play though, so if you duel a friend with a S/D thief spec as practice you can start getting used to what you will see in these types of matches.

I’m going to start listing posts in the Q&A section on the document that are relevant to the build. I am open to suggestions, and made these changes based on constructive feedback. I am pretty experienced in the game, but nobody knows everything

That is a quite standard shatter spec and this is where the problem starts… seeing every other mesmer build is not good you rely on the good old shatter which can be very effective, but due the current meta, it can be easily countered as well.. Null field you’ll want to use it nearby the big “action” so you take the full benefit of it, to not only cleanse your condis but also the condis of your allies, and if you’re close them them, you’re eating all the damage from the engineer/necro/ranger. If you position yourself decently in range (and use blink for a gateaway for example) to be able to range with your GS like a baws (Xeph style) guess what? S/D thief will be on you no matter your positioning, why ? Because their class mechanic makes them able to teleport to you no matter where you are and on top of that they’ll eat you alive since they can evade all your damage and you barely have any ground target aoe/cc and the ccs you got he can easily evade… which means the elementalist needs to peel for you opening himself and your guardian for some condi damage now, so instantly you’re on defensive and they can simple keep pushing more and more… because condis can be reapplied over and over and over again without risk or penalty while cleansing (Ele dagger 5 for example) blow very good cooldowns while condi pressure is on auto-attacks (like burning – which is utterly kittened).

The way to make mesmers viable like this is specifically in team fights where you must KEEP the pressure so they won’t have time to react to the mesmer, but its just not possible because:

If the necro is going down he pops plague, if engineer is going down he pops elixir R and you have to hold your damage while he cleanse his condis or you risk a free ress, rangers and guardians have so much sustain that you’ll only be able to pressure them after a while once they start using their cooldowns, S/D thiefs can reset the fight and have easy cleanses and evades a.k.a. sustain. What mesmers have? Once pressured they’ll pop distortion which does not stop condi damage, same for blurred frenzy chaos storm and so on, those are very good for DIRECT damage, not condis. Then you’ll be forced to use Null Field which also is not fast enough compared to the pace you’re recieving condis & direct damage, and if you blink away you’re a very easy pray for a S/D thief not to mention that the condis will keep ticking… i’ve often died even while getting out because condis kept ticking and any good team will exploit that.

Again the main problem with meta and spvp in general right now, its not much the balance of classes but how conditions are designed to be mindlessly spammed without risk or thought, there is just no depth or penalty for using them at WILL.

Conditions should be some sort of support to bring down the target, much like debuff works in other games, just like you use CC to support focus fire in which you’ll kill the guy, they should not be able to kill people on their own, and definitely not as fast and as effective as they are now. Its a game design flaw.

I’d also been willing to try this comp but as i main mesmer since release i’ll go ahead and say that i already have tried all different types of builds and the one you said is terrible.

First the trait line is useless since you empower your phantasm and then the grandmaster said “hey if you want something semi-worthy now you have to shatter them”. Plus the main ideal of shatter is to burst damage and this is when you’ll use it when you’re attacking (focusing someone), this is NOT when you want peels/cleanses and support. Essentially what you want is steadily cleanse of condis, not burst cleanse. I have tried this build over a week, its so bad i can’t even believe, an S/D thief will eat you alive using 1 key in his keyboard nonetheless (#3) which is essentially why mesmers are bad currently, not only because of condis.. just saying.

JonathanSharp.7094:

You could make a case that Mesmers have a hard time in a hard condition meta, and I think a lot of people would agree with you. They have counters to conditions, but a lot of players don’t like to run those in standard Mesmer setups.

You sir… .Perhaps you should try to run those builds (cleanse on mantras and/or shatter cleanse) and taste some of your own advices. Instead everytime i meet you in a tournament match you’re on your necromanser.

Besides the “condi” meta that you want to keep as well as push the other metas, is completely bad and has the lowest skill floor since its all about spamming them, there is no depth in WHICH condition i should use at WHICH exact time, no risk since you can do it from far, and most of the condi is RNG burning from a simple trait which people can’t even react against, people just spam those shots and suddenly they apply heaps amount of burning damage. The state of the game after the patch has never been so terrible and i’m sure 80% of the community including the people who play those “meta classes” would agree.

The only condi class, semi-balanced and fun to play is engineer.
Necro has 1 main viable build which does everything, hard cc, hard dps and now hard survivability.
Don’t even get me started or rangers.
Guardians has been a must in every single competitive team since release – so you think that’s balanced right?
Thiefs have some room for build diversity but they’re mainly funneled into one build which has everything in one skill which they can spam mindlessly – high damage, boon stripping, evade at the same time, no cooldown or risk in using it as many times you want.
Elementalists also probably one class with some build diversity cept for staff, but got completely disregarded due necro/engineer/sd thief/ spirit ranger/guardian setup being godly in all situations, in all scales 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 or 5v5. Hell the winning team in PAX NA had what? 2 rangers? Yeah that’s fun to watch, a whole bunch of AI pets doing the heavy lifting.
Warriors also semi balanced probably one of the best designed class atm due their telegraphed skills which every class should have in order to see nice counter plays. But also mainly funneled now into a 1v1 role due the massive opness of the condi meta (were also brought viable due berserk stance mainly).
I’ll also not even comment on mesmers, we all and their grandmothers know what’s wrong with mesmers which is: no build diversity, essentially mesmers are FINE/OK within balance but since others are out of hand they also got no room.

sorrow.2364:

saVdoom.2067:

sorrow.2364:

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

Sorry to burst your bubble but shifting the meta is a necessity right now. I main a mesmer since release, and i do agree with Xeph. Mesmers have its issues but they don’t need strong buffs in order to compete in this meta. Simple because this meta is wrong.

The meta is about mindless condi spam, fear spam, stun spam, pet spam, passive play > active skill. Just to name a few.

There needs to be some penalty for condi spam (one condi canceling the other, or not adding on intensity/time) so that it takes timing and coordination on when to use the right condi at the right time. Plus every skill that matters (strong skills) need to be able to be telegraphed so there is a reaction time.

Are you serious?
The meta was like that since release, even when Mesmer was viable.

You’re talking like 5-6 months ago meta wasn’t about Phantasms, mindless rotations, brain-dead bunkering, spam in general and non-telegraphed insta-gib combos.

You’re talking like non-telegraphed strong skills is a new issue, like Moa has some sort of telegraph.

My last paragraph was not meant for pos-necro-patch only. It was aimed at the improvement of the game in general.

My first 2 paragraphs are aimed mostly to the pos-necro-patch. Quite honestly previously to the patch we had a much more balanced meta.

If you look back at the top teams in NA back in that time, Ostrich’s team that won curse tournament had a necromanser, engineer, S/D thief, elementalist and guardian, 2 power, 2 condi, bunker setup. I’m not saying it was a decent/good meta for the game overall, but much better then what we have now.

TP had also the same setup with 2 condi, 2 power, bunker, with ranger, engineer, mesmer, elementalist and guardian.

Back then it was still about some mindless spamming, but atleast you could see that the elementalist used his full rotation into someone and that is why he died. You saw that berserk illusion wrecking the guy, so that is why he died, while the condi classes would support with cc’s and also keeping poison/burning into the target.

There is a good reason why back then we had 4k viewers in tournaments, while now we barely have 1.2k viewers in a tournament worth lotsa IRL money.

sorrow.2364:

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

Sorry to burst your bubble but shifting the meta is a necessity right now. I main a mesmer since release, and i do agree with Xeph. Mesmers have its issues but they don’t need strong buffs in order to compete in this meta. Simple because this meta is wrong.

The meta is about mindless condi spam, fear spam, stun spam, pet spam, passive play > active skill. Just to name a few.

There needs to be some penalty for condi spam (one condi canceling the other, or not adding on intensity/time) so that it takes timing and coordination on when to use the right condi at the right time. Plus every skill that matters (strong skills) need to be able to be telegraphed so there is a reaction time.

Next time we might as well remove the players and let the AI spirits do the job.

Spirit of Nature for MVP in all matches obviously…

GGs peeps!

feight.2704:

even if you have to land before being able to stun break, how is it really an advantage? not much thing cant be done while foes is flying around . second yes engi have the hard cc. but its not as SPammable as mesmers daze… and since daze is more beneficial for mesmer than engies, it makes mesmers better at interrupting . engi have have crowd control , mesmer have interrupt.

Hard CC is much more beneficial because it makes that much easier for other classes to land their skills while the guy is still landing on the ground. Mogwow does that alot with super, while engineer CC the person, Mogwow lands his 100% burst on it. Besides it also has the benefit of launching the guy off point to get a decap or something like this.

Defektive.7283:

saVdoom.2067:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Give it some time. Once people start building counter comps to the meta, perhaps mesmers will be in the counter-counter comps.

Lol. Before this last patch with loads of adjustments, warriors and necromansers were also not part of the meta… and it was “given some time”… and they were still not viable in the meta… until a significant patch hit it, changing some specs and abilities.

Regarding the spirit ranger, if you check patch notes they were significantly buffed but the BM spec was still better, until they got nerfed. Then it was a normal change to the spirit spec.

Warriors are still not apart of the meta btw.

Exactly, but still rather more “viable” then mesmers in a team comp due their perma stun/daze spec being more useful to teams. Plus berserk stance.

And people will still say “give it time for warriors…” ?

Thedenofsin.7340:

Give it some time. Once people start building counter comps to the meta, perhaps mesmers will be in the counter-counter comps.

Lol. Before this last patch with loads of adjustments, warriors and necromansers were also not part of the meta… and it was “given some time”… and they were still not viable in the meta… until a significant patch hit it, changing some specs and abilities.

Regarding the spirit ranger, if you check patch notes they were significantly buffed but the BM spec was still better, until they got nerfed. Then it was a normal change to the spirit spec.

Now the reason why mesmers are not viable atm, i wouldn’t say because they are bad or anything like thakittens just that most other classes have access to evades/conditions far to easy in spammable cooldowns. If you fix that, i’m sure they’ll be back to be viable.

Defektive.7283:

Having everyone be self sufficient is most likely detrimental to the game as a whole.

Tell that to necros, spirit rangers, engineers, S/D thiefs and guardians.

Quite honestly i don’t think any of this will be necessary as long as they nerf the condition damage, or nerf the easy ways to get them all and just spam them at will.

I suggested a while ago to make conditions cancel each other so thakittens not just AoE spam and win… so you’ll remove burning if you add in chill for example. Or something like that..

Also trust me, i’m sure TCG and TP tried to make it work with mesmers, and very good ones… but you saw the end result didn’t you?

Before EU PAX, TP was always trying their normal setup and getting destroyed by not so good groups but they’d roll with the right “meta” comp and destroy them… trust me when i say that they really TRIED to make it work, but all the risk just does not pay off. So in order to stay competitive you have to reroll.

Phantaram.1265:

Everything that is powerful currently in the meta completely owns mesmer. I used to be able to protect xeph from the horrors that tried to charge him but it was useless, the horrors are now too much, so he switched to s/d thief. He then tried to stop the horrors from killing me on my ele but that was also futile. So now I’m a necro. We joined the horrors.

Defektive.7283:

jportell.2197:

Defektive.7283:

Archaon.6245:

Defektive.7283:

Because we’re lazy and Necromancers are strong.

More likely because you can’t be as strong as a necro on condition/fear spam, as tough as a spirit ranger or guardian, as good as bomb engi @ far and as fast and reliable as ele and thief @ roaming and let’s say not as annoying as permastun hammer warriors…whaterver you try someone can do it better, so there’s no reason to keep playing mesmer in tourney

Portal play can be a game changing advantage.

If a team ran an aggresive bunker mesmer instead of a Spirit Ranger they could do slick things as bate an enemy to mid, portal to far point. Clobber the guy one, leave their bunker mesmer on point as the team transitions back to mid.

I keep bringing up Bunker Mesmer because I’ve seen some slick Bunker builds out there from people like Zeromis. It may take forever to kill something as one, but they are sometimes near unkillable if played correctly. Put one on a far point either decapped or capped in your favor, and it isn’t going anywhere any time soon.

Bunker mesmer isnt as good because our bonuses and boons for bunkering come from stealth. I’ve run a PU bunker build and sure you can sit on a point while three people try killing you. But once they get wise to your roll as nothing more than trolling. Your roll on the team is pretty much nullified

agreed it’s very trolly, but if you can do that while keeping a point decapped in favor of your team, it’s a very effective troll.

I also agree the stealth issue is of concern.

Overall I feel like there’s a lot of options out there that people aren’t trying because they feel outlandish.

It’s easier to stick to the status quo than it is to try new things. And I feel like a lot of ‘good’ players switch classes quickly because they feel it’s the only way to stay competitive. But I also feel that’s a disservice to the community as well as themselves.

So if you make use of your stealths + blurred frenzy + distortions and if add in some ccs from the enemy which leave you punted/rooted you off the point, you basically allowed them to get a full cap? Makes no sense to me.

Clutch plays with portal are still viable but it requires first of all, a full group and a very good coordination to have everyone at the right place to cross, drop the skills to kill the bunker at far point and then make back in time to still have mid decapped (if you leave your bunker there alone against 4 people, he will die and you’re in a huge disadvantage. And all of that for what? A mesmer defending far point will either die or get decapped as i explained earlier, he has no mobility to disengage at all and will most likely die (especially since S/D thiefs are out of hand right now) while trying to escape.

You’ve probably fought against me, i’m Ninesevensix mesmer and the only semi-decent way to play a mesmer is still GS/Staff with halting strike and a regular shatter build with blink to try save your skin when you can teleport the kitten out (keep in forest for example). Still terrible compared with everything else..

I’ve tried from cleansing on shatter, to have cleansing mantra and none of them work simple because: For shatter to be effective you have to burst with it… its not what you want you to cleanse condis… since those are being spammed m-i-n-d-l-e-s-s-l-y so even if you remove the initial burst you’re gone in the second one if they add in a daze or stun, you’re simple gone. The mantra cleanse gives you the control to cleanse when you really need to do but its kittened how long the pre-casting is which everyone can interrupt you since the animation is that obvious.

If you want a condi mesmer kitten that, just take a spirit ranger with more condi damage that a mesmer will ever get, more toughness, heal and a ress, not mentioning the buffs and support.

TRoopEr.5364:

saVdoom.2067:

Zenith.7301:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

sorrow.2364:

Romek.4201:

wtf sorrow
1. it is not important where xeph comes from – he play in an european team
there are reasons why arenanet said only from some countrys and not all – cause not all allow tournaments like this – it has nothing to do when he is arab european american or chinese or whatver

2.
phantarm opened a thread – yes
he did write nothing, he asked for opinions and people gave – it was constructive postings and comunication from arenanet with players was fine so a change in fvour for all could be made
maby check forum there is big athread from xeph too about the meta we have and how bad it is – complain bout too?

3. again wtf
i watched stream too and he said atleast 30 min before the match started it would be bo5 and they even made a extra 15 min break for the teams – and again when the teams dont say tehy have a problem with this and agree with pressing the button " i am ready" than everything is fine and complaining now about is just WHINING

jsut stop this bull….. here . people are not stupid and see whats groing on the jealousy from people like this sorrow guy or mustafa from ulgyteam is insane and dont make you guys looking any better.

and @op from this tread here you dont make your team looking any better with this – atleast people will remember CC as bad losers.

have a nice day

Man, chill out.
There is no reason to get that angry, did I offended you or something?

1. It is important when Xeph comes from when the tournament rules explicitly says that only people resident in EU are allowed to partecipate.

2. The fact that there is a thread by Xeph too proves nothing. You did not get my point.

3. You missed my point again. It doesn’t matter when they said that the match whould have been Bo5, I could have not paid enought attention. The point is that they changed the match on the fly, which is an extraordinary decitions who favoured (casually or causally) TP.

1. Exactly this is the point. his “resident” is not EU. I can go during holidays to spain. I am spain now? No, Xeph still is arabian-resident, even when change location for some weeks.

2. Romek missed the point

3. Even when they told it in chat. It’s unproffessional and bad organized. Organisators should never change rules during a tournament. The most basic failure you can do.

Xeph has a EU account for all intents and purposes. And given there is no involvement of the UAE region, it’d be silly to block off entire sectors of the population despite their active participation in GW2.

Wait. I have an EU and NA account. I’ve been in EU for work (i work in an Austrian company), but i live in the beloved land of big booties called Brasil. Does that mean i can participate too?

Me and Ellen might be happy !

only if you are the member of TP.

So basicaly no.

I could always create a team called Team Paradigma [TP]….

Zenith.7301:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

sorrow.2364:

Romek.4201:

wtf sorrow
1. it is not important where xeph comes from – he play in an european team
there are reasons why arenanet said only from some countrys and not all – cause not all allow tournaments like this – it has nothing to do when he is arab european american or chinese or whatver

2.
phantarm opened a thread – yes
he did write nothing, he asked for opinions and people gave – it was constructive postings and comunication from arenanet with players was fine so a change in fvour for all could be made
maby check forum there is big athread from xeph too about the meta we have and how bad it is – complain bout too?

3. again wtf
i watched stream too and he said atleast 30 min before the match started it would be bo5 and they even made a extra 15 min break for the teams – and again when the teams dont say tehy have a problem with this and agree with pressing the button " i am ready" than everything is fine and complaining now about is just WHINING

jsut stop this bull….. here . people are not stupid and see whats groing on the jealousy from people like this sorrow guy or mustafa from ulgyteam is insane and dont make you guys looking any better.

and @op from this tread here you dont make your team looking any better with this – atleast people will remember CC as bad losers.

have a nice day

Man, chill out.
There is no reason to get that angry, did I offended you or something?

1. It is important when Xeph comes from when the tournament rules explicitly says that only people resident in EU are allowed to partecipate.

2. The fact that there is a thread by Xeph too proves nothing. You did not get my point.

3. You missed my point again. It doesn’t matter when they said that the match whould have been Bo5, I could have not paid enought attention. The point is that they changed the match on the fly, which is an extraordinary decitions who favoured (casually or causally) TP.

1. Exactly this is the point. his “resident” is not EU. I can go during holidays to spain. I am spain now? No, Xeph still is arabian-resident, even when change location for some weeks.

2. Romek missed the point

3. Even when they told it in chat. It’s unproffessional and bad organized. Organisators should never change rules during a tournament. The most basic failure you can do.

Xeph has a EU account for all intents and purposes. And given there is no involvement of the UAE region, it’d be silly to block off entire sectors of the population despite their active participation in GW2.

Wait. I have an EU and NA account. I’ve been in EU for work (i work in an Austrian company), but i live in the beloved land of big booties called Brasil. Does that mean i can participate too?

Me and Ellen might be happy !

Pandabro.8743:

JonathanSharp.7094:

I just think it’s cute that we have this thread going concurrently with a thread that’s saying Necro’s have no survivability, death shroud is horrible, and that Necro’s, in order to be viable, need to start PvP with life force.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/So-you-want-us-to-use-Deathshroud/

:)

While some might have been saying that it was not the intention when I started the thread.

Necros DO have decent survivability when they have >50% lifeforce built up, the problem is besides a exploit (Minion killing) there’s no way to build up that lifeforce to bunker a point at the BEGINNING of the game. Having lifeforce across the board is probably a bad option but many brought up that warriors have Adrenaline tied to a heal that they can pop at the beginning of the match to gain some Adrenaline so there are creative options that can be used so that glass cannon necros don’t have access to huge lifeforce at the beginning of matches.

It would be nice to be able to have the option to soak damage early if I feel that’s my role in the team.

I still don’t understand what is the issue here. If the necro is focused on the beginning of the match where he has no life force he does not have good decent ways to survive. That is true. But if we are talking about class mechanic specifics here then look at the mesmer… he could had used distortion but under the focus for more then 1 second he’ll still go down just as easily, because he only gets the 3 second distortion once he has clones up… which he won’t have at the beginning of the match.

Every single class is vulnerable to stealth openers as well. Especially if moa is used.

Before this becomes some people trying to argue without having a clue on what’s going on and then just use some cheap rhetorical to keep it rolling i’ll try add something constructive here..

What if conditions would negate the effect of another condition? For example:

If you apply burning to someone, and someone in your team apply chill on him.. then the effect of burning would either go away because in theory he would be ‘frozen’ or reduce the burning damage… This is just one very simple example but perhaps something like this could be used? It definitely brings room for timed usage of conditions instead of the deadbrain keyboard smashing into those skills as soon as they’re off cooldown that we have now. It would obviously need to change some skills that apply both ‘counter’ conditions together in all classes, but would also bring some depth on conditions and when to use them and to actually check what condi the person has on it right now and use the correct skill to try not overrite a good condi for example.

How would be the meta if there would be no amulets at all besides the one that give an all around spread out stats? This would actually be interesting to see.

jmatb.6307:

They are not immune to everything like Mesmers are when they use distortion.

Just on a side note. I truly don’t understand how people think mesmers are still viable as of lately. There is no way to compare a S/D thief evasiveness with a mesmer. Just so you know, after you pop distortion the conditions keep doing damage. Same with thiefs once they teleport back.. but thiefs have access to cleanse, and mesmers don’t.

Zelulose.8695:

Divus.3175:

I really love to see some top players making here some statements. I remember when Xeph was in State Of The Game, and was only one asking questions community wanted him to ask.

They refuse to adapt, because current meta is ridiculous. In one patch they gave too many offensive, uncounterable stuff, and only a little defensive and reactional stuff. Reactional skills made this game how it was since beggining. (Regarding some weird things like moa from stealth).

If, in the latest patch, every ability, which could cleanse conditions, were buffed to cleanse two times more conditions, we could talk about stuff getting balanced. But no, we’ve got new condi burst stuff, which is too easy to play and too hard, even for skilled players, to counter.

I’m playing pve, pvp and a bit of wvw, and seen how meta changed in pvp and wvw. My friend, who owns a warrior, tried to make a built on his, making him able to cleanse most of the condis necro deal, but it’s nearly impossible. And that’s messed up.

If you had enough condition cleanse to you character condition builds will not kill you.
It is a choice. Use a great overall build with little condition cleanse or a hard counter. It is possible if you use as many condition cleansing skills as possible for each class.

There is not enough cleanse for the amount of conditions being spammed. The trully only counter to that condi sometimes is to go full zerg in order to kill him before he is able to pull all his rotation. There is no way to sustain that amount of conditions being trown, which is the main issue… especially since a certain class can trow all of them together and at the same time fear you for over 5 seconds while they eat through you.

RaZaC.1963:

Oke just played on Legacy and apparently s/d thiefs can get to the lord without destroying the gate. This is possible for the Mesmer as well if i’m not mistaken, needs fixing big time.

What a bug? Just like poison and weakness? Give it another 3-4 months till it’ll be looked at.

I completely agree with the OP.