Guild Wars 2

Kathmandu.2417:

showatt.9413:

Kathmandu.2417:

2 showatt:

Arena stated, there will be no gear mill in GW2 at all. Now Arena (so it seems to be) states, there will be gear mill… but slight, without big impact on the game.

When the second statement will be true, then Arena lied to us in the first time. What makes you so sure that this will be the last lie?

PS: For sure, we don’t know how exactly this new gear will be implemented. But it seems pretty clear to be a introduction of the gear mill for me.

They never stated “There will be gear mill.”

They stated "There still isn’t going to be a gear mill " and “the new tier of gear is one time only and it is designed to not be over-powerful ( you can’t use rune in infusion slot. Infusion is designed only to counter agony given the information gathered) give the players who ran out of stuff to do something to work on.”

You need to go back and re-read everything.

Here we go: “Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”

Sorry, but I read a gear treadmill here clearly (yeah, slight one. So they say us now. As well as they said us earlier, that there will be no gear mill at all). Except the new gear will be really easy to get or does not improve your states at all. In both cases it would be strange to introduce new gear in the first place.

I have hope, still, and will surely not quit until I see the new content by myself.

What part of " Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill" and "We will not be adding a new tier every 3 month and expect people to grind for them " do you not understand?

A treadmill Move continuously – a treadmill doesn’t stop after turning once, which is what’s happening with the new gear coming out. It happens once.

That’s the worst treadmill I’ve ever seen if you insist that it is one.
And really, its not strange at all for them to introduce new gears.
Alot of people have been complaining about the lack of things to do.
This entire Asc fiasco is designed to give Anet time to roll out new stuff, and those gears don’t even give you better stats, as the rune on your exotic will end up giving you more stats then the Ascended gear.

xtorma.1283:

Well they have said no, but they have said no before. Your guess is as good as mine.

Which is : “NO – not unless the population of the game has declined to a point where adding better gear becomes necessary, which is very slim.”

Kathmandu.2417:

2 showatt:

Arena stated, there will be no gear mill in GW2 at all. Now Arena (so it seems to be) states, there will be gear mill… but slight, without big impact on the game.

When the second statement will be true, then Arena lied to us in the first time. What makes you so sure that this will be the last lie?

PS: For sure, we don’t know how exactly this new gear will be implemented. But it seems pretty clear to be a introduction of the gear mill for me.

They never stated “There will be gear mill.”

They stated "There still isn’t going to be a gear mill " and “the new tier of gear is one time only and it is designed to not be over-powerful ( you can’t use rune in infusion slot. Infusion is designed only to counter agony given the information gathered) give the players who ran out of stuff to do something to work on.”

You need to go back and re-read everything.

GADefence.5634:

“My guild has over 400 members. All I’ve seen in game are people excited about the new dungeon and people debating whether or not infusions mean the mursaat are about to make a comeback.”

Really, that’s funny. . . Most of the people I talk to are either indifferent about it or annoyed by it, with some ready to quite over it. I think I heard 2 people “looking forward to it” since it’s so small. . . And that’s mostly due to a new dungeon, hence the ascended armour doesn’t factor.

Really? That’s funny… Most people I talk to are either excited or indifferent about it. One or two are annoyed but since you know, they have actually READ what the dev posted and realize there isn’t going to be a treadmill, they have moved on.

I think I have heard 3 people talking about how bad gear progression is, but before I could point out that there isn’t going to be a treadmill at all, just a new tier of gear which is more or less the same with exotic, the map chat started laughing at their ignorance.

But oh well… everyone experience different things, I suppose.

Shayde.2564:

showatt.9413:

nysta.6713:

the worst thing about it is the raider-guild mentality.

everything becomes a case of “what gear do you have?” before anyone would talk to you. you’re considered a good/bad player based on your gearscore. you end up not being able to see half the game’s content without investing your soul into a group of easily irritated people who take the concept of “game” too seriously. you find yourself not bothering with the little things in the world as you end up pursuing only those things which guarantee you loot formatted for your class. ragequitting gets more common. no one likes anyone else because everyone’s too determined to get their loot NOW so they can get into the next raid with “not noobs”.

ugh. the whole idea makes me cringe. i was so glad when gw2 seemed to be saying it would pretty much be the antithesis of this. i thought: at last. a game where gamers looking for challenges and fun can gather. a holy grail, i guess.

while i don’t think this power creeping is the end of the game, it’s pretty much telling me this will be another mmo in which my wife and i’ll be locked out of endgame. again.

Which, would be an MASSIVE exaggeration on your part.
Number 1 – Asc really aren’t that much different than Exotic gears.

Their stat APPEARS to be better, but you would still end up getting more stat bonus with matching runes on your exotic then ASC because these armors only have infusioin slot.

The agony debuff is designed so people only experience it after repeating the new dungeon.

Everything about this entire fiasco has been over exaggerated on the GW1 purist’s part it would seem like the end of day of GW2 if you have only been looking at the forum and not playing the actual game.

We haven’t seen what Omni or Offensive infusions offer. They could be far more powerful than current exotic rune bonuses. That’s really the crux of the issue, 3 months into the game and exotics are no longer BiS.

I dont know about you but I think those infusion will give you:

99% damage reduction
99% damage increase
60 % chance of gaining 16 second invulnerability on hit
10K bonus health.

Why? Well, I have this feeling.

/sarcasm

Cyferwolf.1089:

Eain.7825:

I fear power creep for two reasons:

1: WvW. Currently WvW auto levels you to 80, but your gear is whatever you have on. Even at top level you may not have equal gear to the guy you’re fighting. If the gear he has on is better than yours, and he has it because he’s got nothing to do other than game, while you have to hold down a job and take care off family, you’re not losing because he’s better at the game in terms of strategy and skill. You’re losing because you have something else going on in your life. PvP in WoW was like this. They had this insane resilience stat that gave you damage reduction versus other players. If you had it you could compete, without it you were toast. For an average player without a lot of time on their hands it took months to get a full set, and by that time they’d released another. I love WvW, but I have a job and family life. I want to feel like when I fight someone and lose to them in WvW it’s because they made better choices during the fight and were more skilled, not because they spent an extra 50 hours a week playing that I didn’t have.

2. In GW1, you hit max level, probably with a couple blue items. If you were enterprising and smart, you could get yourself a set of blues with the right stats on them (later yellows and greens) that would cover you for pretty much any build you cared to play within a few weeks at worst. If you paid attention to the various forums and the wiki you could see what skills you needed for various favored builds and get them in a week or two while getting your gear. And then you could play the game, every part of the game, however you wanted. That lasted through 3 expansions, and didn’t waver. Ding max level, get some stuff to fill out your build options, go play. Worst grind you had to do was going to get some skills you might not have. You could walk away for a while, come back, and within a span of a week or two you could play competently.

Contrast that to WoW: Ding max level, go grind regular dungeons for a full set of dungeon gear. Then go grind heroics for a full set of heroic gear. Then you can actually do the raids! Oh, but if you wan to do hard mode raids that have some of the cool story bits you have to grind raids for heroic raid gear. Oh and if you want to PvP you have to also grind for pvp gear. Each step in that chain could take a hundred hours or more. If you were lucky, you got a partial set of raid gear and pvp gear before the next content patch came out. If not well then you can add even more time before you’ll ever be able to play the newest content.

It was a system in which a new player would have to sinkittenerally hundreds of hours just to play the end game content, after they’d already sunk a hundred or so hours into hitting max level.

The problem is the people that seemed to enjoy this were the guys at the top that had nothing but time to play. For those of us with other commitments, it was an endless trudge through ever increasing gear levels so we could occasionally play a bit of the end game content before new stuff came out and the trudge began again.

The fear I have is that in trying to please the people that say “there’s no better gear than this, I’m not going to play anymore” you’re just creating an endless, ugly loop. As soon as you put new gear in the game those players with way more time on their hands will grind it out in a few weeks, then demand more. And the rest of us, who still don’t have full exotic sets, who play the game without having a carrot dangled in front of us, are left even further behind. It also begins to put more and more new content designed for higher gear levels out of reach of average players, and keeps pushing the latest stuff further and further out of reach. It makes it harder for those of us that don’t have a lot of time to sink to play, and makes it harder for new players without massive amounts of time to sink to get into the game and play the newest, coolest looking content.

I don’t know that we’ll see eye to eye easily on this issue. I understand that you don’t feel like there’s anything to do but level new characters because you’ve already done pretty much everything. Comparatively, with one level 80, and a four others all under forty, I’ve barely scratched the surface. I hope you can at least understand why I look at your demand for power creep and ask why I should have to give way to your demands just because you don’t feel like you have reason to play anymore.

Number 1 : they already stated there isn’t gonna be a treadmill.

Number 2: You dont need new gears if you don’t want to. Agony debuff only gates you after you repeat certain dungeons.

Seriously, I finally understand why mods are merging everything to 1 thread.
If the devs are reading this forum they’ll probably be laughing so hard right now.

Not Cool, Guys, not cool.
Right now I spent about 3 hours a day grinding for skin. (I already have exotic)
With the new tier coming out I’m going to be spending 30 minutes more grinding that extra dungeon for Ascended Gear.

That’s 3 and a half hours I spend grinding for stuff.

Not cool.

GADefence.5634:

“Most people actually are excited – if not, indifferent – to Ascended gears.”

I’ll state that’s not true.

Before, people were asking for more stuff. Some were calling legendaries useless (<.01% of forum posts), some were saying the game was boring (<.5% of forum posts). .51% of the population is “the minority”. Now? 5 day kittentorm taking up 50+>% of the forum posts with hundreds upon hundreds of people signing against it? That’s not “the vocal minority”.

Once again, you are assuming forum represent every player that ever grace the game, which simply isn’t true.

Well there are many people who dislike the change, there are also many people who are indifferent, and supportive of the change.

And that’s just on the forum.

Everyone I have met in game are excited about the change. The forum seems to be the only place where negativity about the new changes is born. And I’m not alone.

Kana.6793:

My guild has over 400 members. All I’ve seen in game are people excited about the new dungeon and people debating whether or not infusions mean the mursaat are about to make a comeback.

People in LA map chat and dungeon pugs are playing as normal. The only place I’ve seen hysterical rage about the patch is on these forums.

Plus they’ve already said there will not be a new tier of gear every 3 months, there will only be Ascended and Legendaries added. It’s not a gear treadmill.

Face it, Forum has always been a place where players whine.
It is the least productive place for a game dev to get feedbacks from, and rarely do people actually propose a workable solution that take cost and time into account.
Why? well, because people whine. Tons were whining about not having things to do.
Now, tons are complaining about gear progression.

People complain about Thieves.
Warriors.
Mesmers.
Necro bugs.

Whine Whine whine whine whine.

This is simply NOT the actual playerbase of Gw2. In fact, I would go as far as to say forum is only a SMALL part of the playerbase, because no one whine as much in game as people do on forums.

Xaielao.8510:

showatt.9413:

Xaielao.8510:

showatt.9413:

Sales aren’t meeting their expectation.

I don’t know where people are getting this idea that the game isn’t selling, when every measure out there says it is still doing great. The game is consistently in the top 10 pc games sold on Amazon, often top 5 and the UK PC sales charts it is #4 this week and top 5 on Greenmangaming.com. And that is with a ‘tun’ of new games out and coming out in the next week+, from Football Manager to Hitman, AC3, N4S Most Wanted, Halo 4, Darksiders II and Black Ops 2, not to mention XCOM: EU, Borderlands 2, Dishonored and Torchlight 2 all still selling very well. It is a crowded field, and GW2 is doing great, it’s outselling the new WoW expansion on every list above as well and if it was on Steam it’d have been top 10 every week for the last 2.5 months.

Bro, you want an evidence why this game ISN"T doing great?

I happen to have a ton.

But here, I’ll just give you one, because I have said this times and times again but people dont seem to listen.

If the game is doing FINE, everything is all well and good, Anet isn’t losing players rapidly, why are they going back on their words and introduce a new tier of armor with better stats?

Because they want to pizz off the majority to cater the minority?

No.

Because they’re not doing fine. Because the actual majority is getting bored.
Other wise, they would not have made this change, would they?

PS. If they’re selling so well, it’s probably because people heard about the new expansion.

Oh I rather think it’s likely do to people, you know.. ‘asking for it’. Hard to believe, an MMOG company giving people what they ask for.

I think I’ll take my statistical evidence over your conjecture.. but to each their own.

Very hard to believe indeed, a respected game company would listen to a few whiners on forum and go back on their entire design philosophy just to cater these whiners?
Well then, here is my wish list:

Mount
Guild Hall
Player Housing

People have been asking for mounts for ages. Why isn’t it implanted?

Where is my mount??

But your right, if you’d rather believe statistic from a few webiste that shows the game selling well after the new expansion is announced, believe that those initial purchase cost will cover the entire production cost, and believe that the game isn’t suffering from population issue when every low level zone is almost nearly empty every day (meaning new players aren’t coming in) Go right ahead.

Kana.6793:

Quaz.4931:

People aren’t over reacting, they are just making it perfectly clear to A-net what they think about this “addition”.

Maybe it wont stop this ‘ascended’ tier, but the outcry may hopefully stop any further tiers being introduced

There’s nothing to stop. They have already said:

“Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”

There are no future tiers.

^ Probably one of the most chilled, well informed poster I have seen on the forum today.

Quaz.4931:

Kana.6793:

Quaz.4931:

People aren’t over reacting, they are just making it perfectly clear to A-net what they think about this “addition”.

Maybe it wont stop this ‘ascended’ tier, but the outcry may hopefully stop any further tiers being introduced

There’s nothing to stop. They have already said:

“Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.”

There are no future tiers.

That response came a day after these complaint threads started, so maybe they listened to us then?

Of course they listened.

When a thread has 6900 posts, its hard not to listen, is it? lol

MasterGeese.4756:

I fear power creep because TOO MANY people will have those high tier items, not too little. In fact, I would LOVE to see content that is so hard that only the top 5% of the population can beat it. I’m probably not in that top 5%, but it would constantly give me something to strive for, as opposed to gear collecting. Power creep, gear treadmill, whatever you want to call it, is the most superficial form of difficulty. It only lasts as long as you don’t have gear.

I actually agree, but still, Anet needed time to make new content.

This ascended gear grind will give them that time.

Xaielao.8510:

showatt.9413:

Sales aren’t meeting their expectation.

I don’t know where people are getting this idea that the game isn’t selling, when every measure out there says it is still doing great. The game is consistently in the top 10 pc games sold on Amazon, often top 5 and the UK PC sales charts it is #4 this week and top 5 on Greenmangaming.com. And that is with a ‘tun’ of new games out and coming out in the next week+, from Football Manager to Hitman, AC3, N4S Most Wanted, Halo 4, Darksiders II and Black Ops 2, not to mention XCOM: EU, Borderlands 2, Dishonored and Torchlight 2 all still selling very well. It is a crowded field, and GW2 is doing great, it’s outselling the new WoW expansion on every list above as well and if it was on Steam it’d have been top 10 every week for the last 2.5 months.

Bro, you want an evidence why this game ISN"T doing great?

I happen to have a ton.

But here, I’ll just give you one, because I have said this times and times again but people dont seem to listen.

If the game is doing FINE, everything is all well and good, Anet isn’t losing players rapidly, why are they going back on their words and introduce a new tier of armor with better stats?

Because they want to pizz off the majority to cater the minority?

No.

Because they’re not doing fine. Because the actual majority is getting bored.
Other wise, they would not have made this change, would they?

PS. If they’re selling so well, it’s probably because people heard about the new expansion.

Kathmandu.2417:

showatt.9413:

Draknar.5748:

I think the developers aren’t going to change their plans, NOT because there is a strong majority of players that actually want the ascended gear, but likely because all of the work is already done and they honestly feel that once we try it we will like it.

Finally someone who actually understand what I’m talking about.

However lets put this into scenario okay:

Anet Lead: Hmm the game’s losing popularity we gotta do something fast.

Anet Dev: How about adding endgame gear progression, so player can grind for new gears, and the higher stats will motivate them to do so!

Anet Lead; THAT SOUNDS PERFECT! I know everyone’s gonna love it. Lets do it

Not so realistic right?

The fact is, they most certainly knew this would happen. But still, they went ahead with making the changes. Why would they risk making so many players angry, if they actually are not supported by a greater faction of people who are :

1. Indifferent to the change
2. Support the change
3. Not happy, but willing to give the change a chance.

??

This is the main reason why I believe, that most people, actually don’t care about the change as much as the “VOCAL” majority do.

You makes a huge mistake here: you takes as given than such decisions are right. But the problem is, such decisions are often wrong. A browser game I was playing some time ago did exactly the same thing. They changed the game philosophy because they slowly loosed customers and wanted to stop it. They did it through all the community screamed “NO! NO! NO!” At the end the game proceeded to lose customers, but much quicker. And it is for sure not an exceptional case in the game history.

1. Even if a change is needed, not every change will make the situation better.
2. Everyone makes mistakes. Even developers who use sophisticated tools for making the decisions.

Think about it

Oh i have.

And I never said once such decision would be 100% correct.

However I do believe it will regain some of Gw2’s lost customers. At least for a while.

And whether their decision is right or wrong, who am I to judge? I don’t predict the future. Who knows if people are going to like or dislike the change, WHEN IT ACTUALLY COMES OUT.

The fact is, most people – contrary to what forum whiners believe – are actually EXCITED about the change. This is why Anet is not undoing the change.

This is why despite 6700 whine post they’re still going ahead with it.

Seras.5702:

Pandemic.3516:

the only reason is because people kitten about wanting new content then want to kitten even more when its released because its not “exactly what they want”.

if we didn’t have a power creep when new content was released people would fly through it in a day or two and complain when there is nothing to do again, a power creep gives the dev atleast a few weeks even months before the excessive whining starts on the forums.

No, it’s not about what getting “exactly what they want” it’s about being given exactly what was promised, which is no gear treadmill. A power creep is not necessary. GW1 did it for years and thru new expacs still didn’t raise the level or gear cap for a long time. New content can be made challenging without having to raise gear numbers.

And power creep shouldn’t be implemented just to give the developers a month to stave off whining. There should be real reasons for any big decisions. And this is a big one.

I will say that I’m sick of people complaining about no end-game cuz they did it already. In GW1 we were all very happy to run FOW & UW & Tombs over and over and over. Because it was challenging and not every part was doable right away or without strategy. This game doesn’t require enough strategy just yet, but I’m confident.

It always comes back to “Gw1” is blah blah blah

isn’t it?

Sorry, I actually have faith in Anet.

If they didn’t think Ascended Gear was necessary, they would not have implented it, especially when they knew it’s going to pizz some people off.

And I really don’t care for Gw1 man. This isn’t Gw1. This is nothing like Gw1. If they’re gonna make another Gw1, they should have just give Gw1 a new expansion and better graphic.

This is Gw2.
They’re going for a new thing.

Feeling betrayed because they went back on their words? Bad luck.
Things happens. Turns out getting exotic is too easy and most people dont like horizontal progression.

Situation’s become so dire they had to roll in the change. Fast.

Exactly, Kana.

Most people actually are excited – if not, indifferent – to Ascended gears.

These people are the reason why Anet went ahead with the changes.

Because Forum is actually not the majority.

It reflects only endless repost-ing of a faction of Gw1 purist that wants Gw2 to be exactly like 1, which isn’t actually the opinion of the real “majority”.

nachtnebel.9168:

I will spell it out for you too:
Arena Net will lose more costumers if the implement a Gear Treadmill like they are about to do.

That’s what YOU think would happen.

IF you aren’t actually the majority, and if most people are actually okay with the change, then how on earth would they lose more costumers? In fact, they might even regain some of the customer lost because now these people have something to do.

Sure they’re gonna be leaving again when they get the new gear, but that will at least buy the company a few more month to make more stuff.

You honestly still aren’t thinking.
But keep trying.

PS. Stop using the word “community”.

You are not the community.
The forum is NOT the community.
Read my post properly.

Draknar.5748:

I think the developers aren’t going to change their plans, NOT because there is a strong majority of players that actually want the ascended gear, but likely because all of the work is already done and they honestly feel that once we try it we will like it.

Finally someone who actually understand what I’m talking about.

However lets put this into scenario okay:

Anet Lead: Hmm the game’s losing popularity we gotta do something fast.

Anet Dev: How about adding endgame gear progression, so player can grind for new gears, and the higher stats will motivate them to do so!

Anet Lead; THAT SOUNDS PERFECT! I know everyone’s gonna love it. Lets do it

Not so realistic right?

The fact is, they most certainly knew this would happen. But still, they went ahead with making the changes. Why would they risk making so many players angry, if they actually are not supported by a greater faction of people who are :

1. Indifferent to the change
2. Support the change
3. Not happy, but willing to give the change a chance.

??

This is the main reason why I believe, that most people, actually don’t care about the change as much as the “VOCAL” majority do.

Kana.6793:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

They’re just adding Ascended. They’re not adding new tiers every 3 months.

That is not a gear treadmill and that is not WoW style progression. People are overreacting like mad.

Michael.6849:

we had to watch them go down a slippery slope of lets add jumping

What on Earth is wrong with being able to jump? O.o

Everything is wrong with being able to jump!

You can jump over fences and bypass the content!

Gosh the nerves of you :P

Codus.9086:

showatt.9413:

“If you really are the majority, and if the majority of players are so opposed to the idea, and if the game is doing fine and requires no such dramatic changes, why the hell is this happening? ".

I can answer that one. It’s being changed because people were pissing and moaning that they couldn’t get their Legendary quickly enough. This inclusion of an intermediate tier is directly aimed at them.

Just because you seem to agree with a change doesn’t make you right, does it?

Except you have failed to answer the question.

If the majority of people like yourself aren’t pissed, and if the game is doing fine, and if truly the majority dislike this new idea, Why has Anet decided to create a mechanic that only caters the minority and serve nothing but to piss the majority players off?

nachtnebel.9168:

The whole community is the whole community, or have you been shown any evidence I don’t know of?

And I’m not constantly sayin that the majority shares my opinion, I never did that, you just imply it.

Can I ask you how old you are?
Because you seem to have problem grasping what I’m actually talking about.

The fact that these changess – the Asc gears – are STILL coming out with 6700 whine posts created for it, and the fact that they have created this new tier, which your “supposed” majority is so discontented with, means that either -

A > Anet is stupid.

or

B > You aren’t the majority.

If you ask me I’d go with B.

Because unlike you, who probably hasn’t studied about User experience design, I did, and I know forum actually reflects only a part of the game, and not everything.
There are many other ways to gather data, which game developers use ( I know because I study game design and user experience is part of the course), and these data must have shown them that their product isn’t working as well as intended.

If this isn’t the case, they wouldn’t put ASC gear in.

Get what I’m saying here?

PS. Again google search the terms I’ve given you. Heuristic Evaluation, Contextual Inquiry, Usability Test and User experience design. I’m not making things up.

So this is a not about Ascended Gear, but it is talking about Ascended Gear?

God I feel so betrayed.

Wow this is an original thread.

please keep it going because I have not heard this type of argument before.

Loumy.7841:

The merged thread is basically a trash can. It’s about damage control and not about discussion.

Putting trash in trash can is …. wrong?

Koolthulu.9682:

If I wanted to play for constantly increasing numbers, then I would have played any one of the hundreds of other MMORPGs out there. So no, this won’t make me play more than I already do.

And if anyone honestly thinks one new tier will be enough for that type of player, then they haven’t played any of those other games. Whether Anet intended this to be the start of a treadmill or not, now that they have given in, they have no choice but to make it one. The second Anet releases the full Ascended set, someone will have it and start whining that they have finished the game and have nothing else to do.

I’ll keep playing (no sub, why not), but like others I’ll no longer purchase anything from the store.

Don’t worry. I got your share covered.
The second they release the new gear I’ll purchase a megaton of gems to show my support.

nachtnebel.9168:

The point here is:
Most community sites as well as this forum show that a lot of people are discontent with these upcomming changes. This is not evidence but still a clue that something isn’t right here. I have seen enough knee-jerk reactions in my life to know that this ascended gear and the infusion system – which is that different formt he one we had in GW1- feels like one.

We, the whole community, have not been shown evidence yet that tells us that Arena Net is donig what the majority of us wants. So it comes all down to Arena Net’s credibility, which, for some of us, is now damaged.

Sorry, when you said whole community, do you mean the whole “FORUM” community, which actually still have a few people supporting here and there?

Go ahead. Keep thinking you are the majority because whiny children spam forum to voice their displeasure, no one will stop you.

Before you do though, Just have a really good think about my question, and repeat it over and over again in your head -

“If you really are the majority, and if the majority of players are so opposed to the idea, and if the game is doing fine and requires no such dramatic changes, why the hell is this happening? ".

Do this, and maybe you will start seeing what I’m talking about here.

Because honestly, continuously crying about How you represent every player who plays the game, and how you feel betrayed, is now really getting effing old.

Chackan.2813:

Good to see other players that share my feelings! I kind of feel sad with so many negative threads, and yet every time I log in I get this feeling that something awesome is going to happen in-game, and that feeling never disappoints me!

I actually take joy in helping lower level players and wandering around in lower level areas! Think I totally get what ANet aimed for!

And now you see the light.

People in game don’t actually care about the new tier as much as forum goers do. People who truly love the game could not care less what comes out so long as its new, its not completely game breaking and it give them something to do.

Yes.

Shoot me.

Astralporing.1957:

Pandemic.3516:

if we didn’t have a power creep when new content was released people would fly through it in a day or two and complain when there is nothing to do again

They will still do that – the new gear might give them few more days tops, no more. And the people that wanted interesting new content will still want one, because just putting in new, better eq and scaling content up to that gear tier is NOT interesting.

Cough… and new dungeons…cough.

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Lemme state this again.

You – and your so called “majority” and your “community” isn’t the only thing that’s keeping the game afloat. If it is, they wouldn’t have changed the game like this and if they are hell bent on changing it because – lord knows – they feel like it, they would at least tell you before hand.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that you and the people who dislike the changes merely reflect the a fraction of the player base. Why dare I make this assumption?

Reality.
There has been 6000 post about this change. 6000 post. Seriously that number is making it the longest thread in GW2 history. Majority of them dislike the change.
And yet 6000 posts still aren’t enough to make Anet change their mind.

Is Anet crazy?
Nope.
It really just mean that there are actually far more people who either support the change, or are indifferent to the change, or are willing to wait til the content roll around and see what it brings, but they didn’t feel like getting caught up in this mayhem. Because you, and the fraction of the community, “feel betrayed” isn’t a valid enough reason to make them undo the change.

So 6000 in two day are not enough but way less over the last three month are?
And if they don’t rely on forum posts what is their source? I haven’t seen any ingame surveys since the end of beta.

All you have to assume that the majority is in favor of these change is the fact that Arena Net isn’t going back yet. I don’t have much too but the sheer number of posts that show discontent.

Once again: Only time will tell if this decision was the right one or not.

Have you actually read ANYTHING I have posted?

Seriously, Anet is the developers.
They would be complete kitten stupid if they listen to forum alone.

And if they actually listen to forum alone, this change would have been undone already.

Think! ok?

He’s green.

Nuff said.

Loumy.7841:

showatt.9413:

Have you actually done WvW before?

Seriously nothing in that place is related to skill.

Whoever has the bigger zerg, better siege or finer organization/coverage pretty much win. I’ve killed tons of people wearing nothing but lvl 30 blue (and no jewel), and i didn’t even have master traits.

Gear is the last thing that mattered in wvw, and it only matters if you’re a free roamer that happens to run into one or two people when you’re doing your vistas.

Actually some of us enjoy roaming in the edge of the zerg, getting smaller more exciting fights.

And having better gear will help you with that, will it not?

If not, then spvp.

Have you actually done WvW before?

Seriously nothing in that place is related to skill.

Whoever has the bigger zerg, better siege or finer organization/coverage pretty much win. I’ve killed tons of people wearing nothing but lvl 30 blue (and no jewel), and i didn’t even have master traits.

Gear is the last thing that mattered in wvw, and it only matters if you’re a free roamer that happens to run into one or two people when you’re doing your vistas.

Oh nos….everything’s coming to an end….oh nos….treadmills is coming….power creep is coming….change is coming…oh nos….

Seriously, Change the kitten record.

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Tell me one thing

If the situation wasn’t dire enough, why would Anet go back on their philosophy entirely and add a new tier of gear?

Because they enjoy ’backstabbing" your so called “majority” of the community?
They did make gw1, you know.

Dont ever forget that.

That’s exactly what people don’t understand and why they get angry. They made GW1, they know how to introduce new content without increasing stats or relying on any kind of grind or gear treadmill but still they choose to do it differently this time without telling us upfront. We had to hear about it from 3rd parties then they told us that there would be a blog post to clear up the mess and all we got was more questions.

I wouldn’t mind if they would have made a public ingame survey that showed that the majority wants this kind of change. In that case I would just go and play something else cause it is not what I’m looking for here. But currently due to the reaction of the community I feel like I’m part of a majority that doesn’t want Arena Net to go down that road.

Lemme state this again.

You – and your so called “majority” and your “community” isn’t the only thing that’s keeping the game afloat. If it is, they wouldn’t have changed the game like this and if they are hell bent on changing it because – lord knows – they feel like it, they would at least tell you before hand.

In fact, I would even go as far as to say that you and the people who dislike the changes merely reflect the a fraction of the player base. Why dare I make this assumption?

Reality.
There has been 6000 post about this change. 6000 post. Seriously that number is making it the longest thread in GW2 history. Majority of them dislike the change.
And yet 6000 posts still aren’t enough to make Anet change their mind.

Is Anet crazy?
Nope.
It really just mean that there are actually far more people who either support the change, or are indifferent to the change, or are willing to wait til the content roll around and see what it brings, but they didn’t feel like getting caught up in this mayhem. Because you, and the fraction of the community, “feel betrayed” isn’t a valid enough reason to make them undo the change.

nysta.6713:

the worst thing about it is the raider-guild mentality.

everything becomes a case of “what gear do you have?” before anyone would talk to you. you’re considered a good/bad player based on your gearscore. you end up not being able to see half the game’s content without investing your soul into a group of easily irritated people who take the concept of “game” too seriously. you find yourself not bothering with the little things in the world as you end up pursuing only those things which guarantee you loot formatted for your class. ragequitting gets more common. no one likes anyone else because everyone’s too determined to get their loot NOW so they can get into the next raid with “not noobs”.

ugh. the whole idea makes me cringe. i was so glad when gw2 seemed to be saying it would pretty much be the antithesis of this. i thought: at last. a game where gamers looking for challenges and fun can gather. a holy grail, i guess.

while i don’t think this power creeping is the end of the game, it’s pretty much telling me this will be another mmo in which my wife and i’ll be locked out of endgame. again.

Which, would be an MASSIVE exaggeration on your part.
Number 1 – Asc really aren’t that much different than Exotic gears.

Their stat APPEARS to be better, but you would still end up getting more stat bonus with matching runes on your exotic then ASC because these armors only have infusioin slot.

The agony debuff is designed so people only experience it after repeating the new dungeon.

Everything about this entire fiasco has been over exaggerated on the GW1 purist’s part it would seem like the end of day of GW2 if you have only been looking at the forum and not playing the actual game.

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Sorry, but if people aren’t getting bored there’s no way Anet would re-evaluate their entire design philosophy.

I don’t doubt that some people are getting bored, but I seriously doubt that these people form the majority of the GW2 community. Just compare the number of posts made in the last two days in the Ascended Geard thread to the number of post about the so-called “lack of endgame content” made in the last threee month.

Have a little sympathy for game developers.
Especially a competent one who actively keep their players updated like Anet.

Sales aren’t meeting their expectation. People are getting bored. And active player

Either you display a little understanding and sympathy and accept the change, help improvise the change instead of endlessly chanting “THIS ISN”T WHAT YOU PROMISED" , and pray that Anet could earn some of the popularity they had at launch so they don’t have to try something worse -

Or don’t. And keep feeling betrayed.
Because the game is moving on. Changes are coming. Nothing you do will stop it.

We don’t know yet if we can stop this crap or not. But there are a lot of players that are not willing to accept it. Some of them might quit the game this friday, others, like me, just won’t spend any more money on it untill this mess got cleaned up.
Only time can tell is whether Arena Net is heading in the wrong direction or not. Probably they will lose some players no matter what they do, the only question is, which way will make them lose more.

Tell me one thing

If the situation wasn’t dire enough, why would Anet go back on their philosophy entirely and add a new tier of gear?

Because they enjoy ’backstabbing" your so called “majority” of the community?
They did make gw1, you know.

Dont ever forget that.

And don’t ever think Forum actually reflect what’s happening in game.

It has nothing to do with forums.

Anet holds all the server record and if the your ‘majority’ is still having fun with the game they wouldn’t have done it. It’s stupid to change their philosophy base on forum whiners, and Anet isn’t stupid.

Think about that.

Crossaber.8934:

GW2 is a game without monthly fee like skyrim, COD or whatever PS3 games or xbox games. Once i bought it, i played through all contents then what else? nothing! You either keep playing or find another game, easy. Why do i have to expect more contents and gear grind again and again?

I played Skyrim, once i get the top tier gear and i knew this is the maximum stat i get, do i expect the dev release higher tier gear? Nope.

But if Anet decided to have more tier gear based on expansion contents, then it is fine as long as i can play casually to obtain the new gear.

Of course you can play casually to obtain the new gear.
You don’t HAVE to get the new tier if you don’t want to – people are whining because they thought now their precious exotic aren’t hip anymore ( which actually isn’t the case because I can still get more stats from the runes than Asc gear, which doesn’t have a rune slot and only has infusion slot ).

Amra.6028:

Pandemic.3516:

Narkosys.5173:

For I could care less but for one thing. I preperchased this game way before launch based on principles that this game was going to be designed by. They have just changed one of those main tenants 3 months after launch – basically a bait and switch type scam.
That is what is annoying to me. I also now bet that pay 2 win in the store is not far off either.

a scam?

what would have happened if they release just new looks in the armour and you didn’t like those looks.

you would have whinged.

it doesn’t matter what they would have done with the gear in this update, if YOU didn’t like it you would have whined and make it out as the worst thing known to man.

you aren’t forced to get that gear, basically it has the same stats as exotics because you cant put runes on that gear and the agony stat at the moment is only in that dungeon.

Know what, ppl gonna whine anyway, so why not at least stay true to the principles of the game and lose the WoWbabby-whiners instead of backstabbing your playerbase for some CoD downsyndrome-facemelters?

Like I have mentioned endless times before, it has nothing to do with whine.

Developers aren’t stupid. They’re not gonna re design the game just because a few people whine.

They do it because the record in their hands indicate that – not just a few people like you have presumed – a lot of players are getting bored of grinding for skin. People aren’t as interested in skins as the GW1 purists, and the player population must have declined to a point where they had to do something.

I’m sorry, but if your so called “player base” is enough to keep the game afloat, and if grinding for skins is actually keeping the player interested as much as you claimed it should, then there’s no reason why they would change it.

nachtnebel.9168:

Pandemic.3516:

the only reason is because people kitten about wanting new content then want to kitten even more when its released because its not “exactly what they want”.

if we didn’t have a power creep when new content was released people would fly through it in a day or two and complain when there is nothing to do again, a power creep gives the dev atleast a few weeks even months before the excessive whining starts on the forums.

Besides that this concept worked very welle for GW1 for over 7 years. There are a lot of players form the old GW1 community here and they don’t complain about content being easy accessible.

all I see in these forums are whiners, what happened to loving the game in the BWEs?

Well, it seems like this game isn’t anymore what it was during the BWEs. If Arena Net had told us back then what they were up to we had told them that we don’t like it.

I feel sorry for whoever monitors the forums, must make them feel real good about there game when all they see if people whinging, bugs are fair enough but when people start going nuts over new content… it really doesn’t give them much incentive to release new stuff if all there going to get is more hate.

I thinkg the old community doesn’t count a power creep to be new content. We are happy to get a new dungeon, we just don’t like the gear treadmill and gating that comes with it.

We, we, we….

Sorry, but if people aren’t getting bored there’s no way Anet would re-evaluate their entire design philosophy.

When it comes to game design, especially if its a ‘fundamental’ design philosophy, game developers wouldn’t even touch it just because a few people are whining. Do people whine about Dark Soul being too hard? Yes. Did From Soft release an easy mode? No.

Why?

Because their game’s popular as hell and there’s simply isn’t the need.
Tell you what if Dark Soul is difficult to the point where people aren’t buying the game and new cash (player) aren’t rolling in, you can expect an easy mode to come out in a matter of month.

Have a little sympathy for game developers.
Especially a competent one who actively keep their players updated like Anet.

Sales aren’t meeting their expectation. People are getting bored. And active player must have reflected it to a point they HAD to try something new.

Either you display a little understanding and sympathy and accept the change, help improvise the change instead of endlessly chanting “THIS ISN”T WHAT YOU PROMISED" , and pray that Anet could earn some of the popularity they had at launch so they don’t have to try something worse -

Or don’t. And keep feeling betrayed.
Because the game is moving on. Changes are coming. Nothing you do will stop it.

Nerth.3940:

Webba.3071:

And that data includes the box sales and all income associated with the release. How does GW2 maintain its position as a revenue driver without that income in future quarters?

So many people seem to forget that you already bought the game, there is no sub fee so customer retention is a myth. What you want as a company in a B2P or F2P game is to sell items in a cash shop.

It doesn’t matter if people play or don’t play as long as you generate enough revenue to keep the game alive.

I have already spent money (100€) on gems to upgrade my bank, character slots and bag space because I thought I was in for the long run and I don’t mind spending a lot more for cool armor skins but there aren’t any.

So, instead of populating the gem store with cool stuff to buy I will get the same gear grind I’ve left other MMOs for? That has to be the best business decision ever.

And I can assure you that the best customer is a paying customer with money to spend. Long gone are the collage days when I had a lot of time but little money. Nowadays, I have enough disposable income but a lot less time to “grind” in games.

Guess what I will do if this goes through? I won’t spend any more on the gem store because I know that several months to a year down the line the difference won’t be just 8% in stats. Been there, done that and I’m done with gear based MMOs.

I understand, but high schoolers with access to credit to their mom’s credit card, sadly, aren’t. There are also many other people who enjoys gear progression – its one of the reason why so many f2p games out there rely solely on item mall and they still manage to do well.

Teenager with access to their parent’s credit card.

They’re the ones who are ruining the industry.

Account.9832:

Crackbone.5710:

It’s the almighty Dollar, Euro, etc.

They won’t be getting enough over the long term with only horizontal progression. It’s crystal clear.

Wake up folks. It’s a business. Business or lack-thereof likely dictated this change.

Well, they just lost a steady 30 euros a month from me for the foreseeable future. And if this becomes the norm (i.e., if there are more gear stat increases after this one), I’ll probably sell my copy of GW2 (which I am legally allowed to do under EU law).

Anyway, your post makes no sense. Increasing gear stats doesn’t increase their profits in any way (unless they started selling that improved gear for real money at the gem store – but even they aren’t that suicidal).

I see we’re looking for an answer more sophisticated than " catering the game towards people who want gear progression will likely bring more players/interest therefore bringing more possible revenue."

How does increasing gear stat increase profit I wonder……

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Which is logical for a company that’s out to make money to do especially when their game is free to play and its going downhill.

Face it, if it wasn’t going down hill, if no one ever got bored grinding for skins and everything is the way it was back at launch, they probably would not have done this.

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

Sorry dude, but the game is doing fine. Couple the server populations with the NCSoft 3Q financial statement, and you are just plain wrong.

You keep spouting off that the game is doing fine.

I want a logical explanation as to why, if that were the case, that they would completely change their endgame design, less than 3 months out from the game launch.

Why upset the applecart if there’s no reason to do so?

Greed? Wouldn’t be the first time in business.

Perhaps it is greed.

However, it’s too “early” to pull a cash in maneuver.

I assert the game isn’t doing what they need it to do in the cash shop because of people not staying long enough to purchase anything.

They are hoping this change alleviates some of that. We’ll see if they are right.

I think that people aren’t spending enough in the cash shop because there’s nothing worth buying. I would certainly spend more if there was something worthwhile. I’ll bet I’m not alone.

lmao you aren’t.

Give us mount kittenit.

but oh wait its in their design manifesto that they aren’t adding one.

Mffffffff

Cyberman Mastermind.6012:

showatt.9413:

For god sake have a little understanding, will you?

I have understanding for those who explain their problems to me.
If they’d actually took the time to explain what’s wrong, I’m sure many would come to accept it more easily.
But it is rare to see a game developer do that, for some reason. (Must be in the secret manual.)

Sadly this is true.
Well they did say ‘some people are finding a lack of things to do in endgame’ in the blog post so that “Sort of” indicates the problem there.

Still i have yet to see a company that comes out and say it straight like ‘sorry we’re not doing as well as we thought we would and we wanted to do this and see if things get better."

Maybe its just because they don’t want their investors to run away.
Which would be logical.

Can you imagine the stock when a PR openly admits their company is struggling?

Veldan.4637:

showatt.9413:

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

It is WAY too early in the game’s life to say it was dying slowly. How do we know that people werent just taking a break and waiting for the new content to come out? There is no subscription fee. People will come and go. So now we should come to expect major overhauls to the game’s design philosophy everytime ANet gets nervous that activity is starting to dip?

Compare the amount of people that’s playing this game to the launch.

Swtor actually lasted for 5 or 6 month before it starts struggling for breath.

Gw2 is struggling in 2 month, and since this is a game that has no sub….

So yeah. Expect major changes whenever the popularity of this game crushes.

How is it struggling? How do you know it’s struggling? Are you judging this by the constantly high/full population on EVERY SINGLE SERVER??

Lol do you actually believe the server status reflect the actual population of a server?
There was a time when the server is full on tarnish coast and the entire orr map is contested.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure Anet twink with the sever status to stop people from fotm server rolling.

fotm server rolling

this made my day

Dont pretend it doesn’t happen :P

Henge of Denravi anyone?

Arnath.2319:

I’m sorry if I personally offended you, but if you go back and read my post I actually claimed that this new set of gear is to offset the journey between Exotic and Legendary. I see absolutely no evidence that they will continue to add higher tiers of gear after this. The blog post was quite clear, the “legendary wall” as they put it, discouraged a large % of the player base from playing the game. There was this HUGE jump in progression from the amount of work to get an exotic to the amount of work to get a legendary.

They are attempting to fix this problem by the introduction of Ascended gear which they will slowly add to the game. I have seen no reference, no hint of and no evidence for this prevailing theory that they are going to be adding a new tier of gear every 2 months from this point on. It seems from what evidence that we do have that this is a 1 time thing.

To put it in terms of your analogy, the sidewalk was too short for people, they made it longer. No treadmill just a longer sidewalk.

I love you, i started to loose hope in the Guild Wars community but what you just said nailed it.

People are overreacting and fearmongering when there is NO EVIDENCE to back up there wild claims.

Sorry, but if that were the case – if Anet has no plan for gear progression in the future – they shouldn’t even give us the stat bonus.

The fact that they do is because they want to reach out to new audience and retain the hardcore players that wants a gear progression, at the same time maintaining their belief in fairness.

Fairness which means your gear is not going to enable you to destroy people who’s not wearing the same gear as you.

They’re trying for a happy medium so both side of the spectrum will like the game.
So far the gear progression players are quite happy with this – it is only those GW1 purist who refuses to accept that GW2 is losing players and certain step is necceassary to retain their interest, who are not.

Honestly, people.

Explain to me.

if the game is doing so fine.

If everyone was so okay with horizontal progression.

Why are they doing this?

Why would a company disobey the wish of the “SUPPOSED” majority, if their game is still supported by the majority?

Obviously the game is not doing fine, and they’re forced to change the way they have been operating.

For god sake have a little understanding, will you?

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

It is WAY too early in the game’s life to say it was dying slowly. How do we know that people werent just taking a break and waiting for the new content to come out? There is no subscription fee. People will come and go. So now we should come to expect major overhauls to the game’s design philosophy everytime ANet gets nervous that activity is starting to dip?

Compare the amount of people that’s playing this game to the launch.

Swtor actually lasted for 5 or 6 month before it starts struggling for breath.

Gw2 is struggling in 2 month, and since this is a game that has no sub….

So yeah. Expect major changes whenever the popularity of this game crushes.

How is it struggling? How do you know it’s struggling? Are you judging this by the constantly high/full population on EVERY SINGLE SERVER??

Lol do you actually believe the server status reflect the actual population of a server?
There was a time when the server is full on tarnish coast and the entire orr map is contested.

Sorry, but I’m pretty sure Anet twink with the sever status to stop people from fotm server rolling.

Cyberman Mastermind.6012:

showatt.9413:

But if you are actually “LOYAL” you would stay and play the game despite the change, would you not?

You confuse “loyal” with “stupid”.
Loyal is buying the game even though you’re not sure you will like it as much as GW1, but have faith in the company.
Stupid is continuing to play (and perhaps spending real money) it after the game changes beyond what you ever thought it would be.

Stupid, to me, is believing that expecting the game to be exactly like what was promised even when is popularity is going downhill.

Loyalty, to me, is sticking by the company that brought you the game you loved so much (Gw1) and understand the difficult situation they’re currently facing.

Guess we’re too different to understand each other.

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

It is WAY too early in the game’s life to say it was dying slowly. How do we know that people werent just taking a break and waiting for the new content to come out? There is no subscription fee. People will come and go. So now we should come to expect major overhauls to the game’s design philosophy everytime ANet gets nervous that activity is starting to dip?

Compare the amount of people that’s playing this game to the launch.

Swtor actually lasted for 5 or 6 month before it starts struggling for breath.

Gw2 is struggling in 2 month, and since this is a game that has no sub….

So yeah. Expect major changes whenever the popularity of this game crushes.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

Sorry for the snippet; but, history does not share your assumption. Historically, every MMO that has done that has failed miserably.

Right because Wow is dead.

And that’s a game with gear progression IN PVP.

I’m sorry but your history seems a bit different from mine.

Tyr.1965:

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

It’s not going to bring in as many people as it pushes away and the people that it does bring in won’t stay for long because that crowd has no loyalty.

But if you are actually “LOYAL” you would stay and play the game despite the change, would you not?

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Which is logical for a company that’s out to make money to do especially when their game is free to play and its going downhill.

Face it, if it wasn’t going down hill, if no one ever got bored grinding for skins and everything is the way it was back at launch, they probably would not have done this.

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.