Guild Wars 2

Sky.9347:

showatt.9413:

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Perfectly said.

In fact I actually hope they bring out even more gears with better stat in the future, so that dungeon can grow in their difficulty as well.

Difficulty has nothing to do with gear progression. Things don’t get more difficult just because all numbers get higher.

Difficulty has a lot to do with gear progression. Things do get more difficult because numbers are higher.

If the monster stats are going up, and my stats are going up… then there is no difference.

The delta is the same, the difficulty has not changed one bit.

.

That’s only the case if they HAND you a new set of armor without you grinding for them. Having a progression give them the ability to design new dungeons base on that new tier of armor.

This dungeon will probably tailored to people wearing exotic. The next dungeon though will be tailored to those wearing Asc gears.

In short, gear progression does has something to do with how difficult the future dungeons are going to be.

suppenkasper.5371:

I as a player who only plays this game for WvW feel backstabbed like never before in another game. If it comes out, that this new armor with better stats will be usable in WvW, i will quit the game and might even contact my lawyer to make an example. I am already collecting official quotes of employees about the merchandising of GW2 not being a gear grind game. I know this must sound ridiculous to most, but this is for me an obvious case of fraud to the customer. Lets see what my lawyer says.

Your lawyer will probably laugh his head off.
Just saying.

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Perfectly said.

In fact I actually hope they bring out even more gears with better stat in the future, so that dungeon can grow in their difficulty as well.

Difficulty has nothing to do with gear progression. Things don’t get more difficult just because all numbers get higher.

Difficulty has a lot to do with gear progression. Things do get more difficult because numbers are higher.

AC and Arah, which dungeon’s mob is harder to kill? I’d say AC. why?

Simply because Arah is designed for level 80s wearing lvl 80 gears, while AC is designed for lower lvls. But thanks to the content scaling, even lvl 80 players can struggle sometimes. That is not to say dungeon difficulty has nothing to do with gears.

pvtpublic.8752:

haha who cares. all this hate. There is barely anything to do in the game right now besides mindless karma farming and leveling new characters to 80. At least this gives you something to do. The player base is bored!

hell yeah.

horizontal progression work wells for a game like Gw1, but when you’re going after every other MMO’s player base, you need something better to keep them satisfied.

Reikou.7068:

showatt.9413:

Enemy becoming harder is …..bad?

I thought having a challenge – and be rewarded for taking on that challenge – is a good thing. Guess I was wrong. Nowadays its all about look and having everything easy.

Challenge like Dark Souls that test your reflexes and ability? Yes.

Challenge like Diablo 3 that tests what kind of gear you have? No.

And with this geargrind, Anet is going the Diablo 3 route.

ah Dark Souls.

I’m sure everyone – excepting the real pro – can takes on the asylum demon in their starting gear.

If Dark Souls has no gear progression, every gear will have the same stat. The fact is, Dark Souls HAS gear progression, but its gear progression is minimal and infinitely more versatile so you don’t feel like you’re being tested on how good your gear is.

When you actually are.

Ofc that is not to say Dark Soul is all about the gear; but then, neither is Gw2.

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Perfectly said.

In fact I actually hope they bring out even more gears with better stat in the future, so that dungeon can grow in their difficulty as well.

Cyberman Mastermind.6012:

showatt.9413:

WIthout the pvp factor, the new gear is essentially for PVE. So what’s wrong about being able to kill stuff faster OR having something better to work towards rather than pure skins?

What do you mean “being able to kill stuff faster”? If the new gear is better, then the enemies will also become harder.
Otherwise the carrot could be reached, which would defeat the purpose.

Enemy becoming harder is …..bad?

I thought having a challenge – and be rewarded for taking on that challenge – is a good thing. Guess I was wrong. Nowadays its all about look and having everything easy.

Tyr.1965:

showatt.9413:

FooKFiGhTeR.8153:

pregnable.1954:

FooKFiGhTeR.8153:

Skimmed through this thread as far as I can see this is all speculations.

First and foremost this isn’t a gear treadmill, and GW2 do not require a constant

number in their gamer population. This game is meant to be played by setting goals

and going for it. That is why its not a sub based game in the first place. The devs don’t

even require to bring in a new tier so early on in the game stage but the fact they do

means they got alot more stuffs installed.

If a minority of the population are still in denial and hate the changes or progression

however its called. It might be the time to take a break and maybe come back to Tyria

in a couple of months.

WvW uses pve gear.

Have spent my fair share in WvW and trust me the amount of damage you input isn’t a factor that is just based on a couple of stat points. If your finding yourself in 1v1 situations in your world, your just doing it wrong.

That’s the honest truth right there.

Having the biggest zerg or the greatest coverage is always gonna win you the game no matter how good ur gears are.

WIthout the pvp factor, the new gear is essentially for PVE. So what’s wrong about being able to kill stuff faster?

When their zerg outgears your zerg, you’ll die faster. We’re not talking about 1v1 in WvW. We’re talking about 50v50. lol

Actually no. We’re talking about 50 vs 30, or 40 vs 30, or 20 vs 50.

No two zerg are ever the same size.
On the rare occasion that they are, you have siege weapon to negate the gear difference. I’m sorry but unless theres a gear that grant you over 15k bonus HP there will never be a notable difference in Wvw regarding the gears.

It’s all how big your zerg is, how well your player stick to the strategy and use the skills given to you (portal bomb…etc) and these things have nothing to do with gears.

FooKFiGhTeR.8153:

pregnable.1954:

FooKFiGhTeR.8153:

Skimmed through this thread as far as I can see this is all speculations.

First and foremost this isn’t a gear treadmill, and GW2 do not require a constant

number in their gamer population. This game is meant to be played by setting goals

and going for it. That is why its not a sub based game in the first place. The devs don’t

even require to bring in a new tier so early on in the game stage but the fact they do

means they got alot more stuffs installed.

If a minority of the population are still in denial and hate the changes or progression

however its called. It might be the time to take a break and maybe come back to Tyria

in a couple of months.

WvW uses pve gear.

Have spent my fair share in WvW and trust me the amount of damage you input isn’t a factor that is just based on a couple of stat points. If your finding yourself in 1v1 situations in your world, your just doing it wrong.

That’s the honest truth right there.

Having the biggest zerg or the greatest coverage is always gonna win you the game no matter how good ur gears are.

WIthout the pvp factor, the new gear is essentially for PVE. So what’s wrong about being able to kill stuff faster OR having something better to work towards rather than pure skins?

Why does it matter that everything has to be the same?

IF you don’t want to grind for better gear then you don’t have to. Even if they make the new tier just a bunch of new skin, you’re gonna be grinding for them anyway.
I’m sorry but I’d rather grind for better gears.

ratatonga.9468:

just because the minority of players wines about getting bored doesnt mean that the vast majority of the community want that too.

contribution to the topic: better skins is nice but not better stats…

better skins = subjective.

Better stat = universal.

I really don’t see what’s so bad about being able to grind for better gears considering the only place you can use it is during wvw and lets face it WVW is never about skills – whoever’s got more coverage or bigger zerg pretty much wins.

Feel like saying “BUT THEY PROMISED!!!”?

well too bad. It was a marketing strat.
People say whatever they want to sell their product.

People also find out that their original philosophy isn’t working out as well as they had thought it would.

Long story short – People change.

So does Game.

Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

7kitten ;Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

fixit.7189:

Wow, this thread is a mess. They are cramming anything related to this topic right into this one and making it even more confusing than it already is. What real dev is going to even bother reading it now? lol.

It’s actually best that they don’t.

honestly most people here are all about GW1 and wanting to make the game exclusive to GW1 fans.

They don’t want to game to reach out to a new market – instead they’re happy to close their eye and pretend the game isn’t dying because the lack of progression.

Gw2 is nothing like Gw1, which is why the “diehard” gw1 fans have already gone back to gw1.

Gw2 is a game on its own, and it has attracted not only gw1 fans but also fans of other MMO. to satisfy everyone’s need, compromises have to be made. It’s really sad how most of the community doesn’t seem to understand that.

well, then it would have been rather up front of them to say “we are making a WoW-hybrid with lots of grinding” instead of boasting for years “we will reinvent the genre and there will be no powercreep and gear treadmill”, wouldn´t you agree?

But then less people will buy their game.

Have you ever heard of a guy called Peter Molyneux?

haha, while that wasn´t actually any defense of this kind of behaviour AT ALL, it was totally hilarious, thanks for giving me a great laugh Yeah, it is actually pretty Molyneuxesque – well, short of promising world peace and stuff.

lmao there’s no defense for marketing strategy lol it is what it is.

If you ever make a game, you are sure to hype it up as much as possible.

If you don’t, you make less money.

That’s reality.

well, actually I have some background in this, so this is not new to me. But you can also severly burn your brand/name acting like this. Though computer players seem to be rather forgiving when it comes to that.

Aye, they certainly do lmao

Consider Peter Molyneux still managed to coax player into buying Fable 2 AND 3 even after screwing up big time in Fable 1, I’d call that a successful strategy.

Still, the guy is a joke and only 10% of what he says can be taken seriously – not because he did this sort of stunt once, but because he does this with every single game he makes.

As long as Anet doesn’t become like that, I’m pretty sure most ppl will be willing to forgive them.

After all we’re gamers.

Anet makes our game.

NoobOnSteroid.7192:

showatt.9413:

Whether or not this game is heading towards a bad direction or not depends entirely players and not the design itself, as none of the new designs are actually game breaking.

If their new choices go directly against everything they’ve said about the game in the years leading up to release, you might say it’s going in a bad direction.

Not so much because it completely ruins the game (I’m pretty sure a lot of people will just keep on playing), but because you’re undermining the trust your own audience has in you. I’m disappointed, and I cannot see any reason for buffed stats on the new items. Ascended could just as well be a copy of exotic/legendary, outfitted for the new dungeon (with the addition of a “harmless” dungeon-only infusion slot).

I for one CAN see the reason for a buffed stat – to accommodate harder dungeons and make existing dungeons SLIGHTLY easier to do.

Naysayer will be the only reason why this game fails – if it ever does.
Not the design.

Because – as much as everyone of you hated what’s coming – you have to admit gw2 is a well designed game, unlike Swtor, where you start lagging when more than 20 people are playing in the same area.

The game works perfectly.
Players who welcome the changes will help the game open to new possibility and venture into the unknown, while the naysayer who keep repeating how they’ve been cheated or how gear progression is bad like a broken record, will lead the game to its downfall.

So?

Are you gonna come on board and enjoy the ride, regardless of the direction that the ship is heading and constructively helping the developers to navigate this ship?

Or are you gonna stand on the shore and screaming and shouting ‘traitors’ and cling onto your belief that Gw2 is better off as just another GW1 clone and that no change is best change?

Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

7kitten ;Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

fixit.7189:

Wow, this thread is a mess. They are cramming anything related to this topic right into this one and making it even more confusing than it already is. What real dev is going to even bother reading it now? lol.

It’s actually best that they don’t.

honestly most people here are all about GW1 and wanting to make the game exclusive to GW1 fans.

They don’t want to game to reach out to a new market – instead they’re happy to close their eye and pretend the game isn’t dying because the lack of progression.

Gw2 is nothing like Gw1, which is why the “diehard” gw1 fans have already gone back to gw1.

Gw2 is a game on its own, and it has attracted not only gw1 fans but also fans of other MMO. to satisfy everyone’s need, compromises have to be made. It’s really sad how most of the community doesn’t seem to understand that.

well, then it would have been rather up front of them to say “we are making a WoW-hybrid with lots of grinding” instead of boasting for years “we will reinvent the genre and there will be no powercreep and gear treadmill”, wouldn´t you agree?

But then less people will buy their game.

Have you ever heard of a guy called Peter Molyneux?

haha, while that wasn´t actually any defense of this kind of behaviour AT ALL, it was totally hilarious, thanks for giving me a great laugh Yeah, it is actually pretty Molyneuxesque – well, short of promising world peace and stuff.

lmao there’s no defense for marketing strategy lol it is what it is.

If you ever make a game, you are sure to hype it up as much as possible.

If you don’t, you make less money.

That’s reality.

chronus.1326:

showatt.9413:

I really don’t see what’s so wrong about dev hyping up their game. I mean it’s not like Anet pulled a Peter Molyneux on us and created a gear that’s grossly overpowered to the previous tier.

It integrated a kind of a community that was outside of the francishe so far, and whose needs are directly opposing the policy of the game and what we were used to and what we liked.

There isn’t a single Guild Wars player who throughout the 7 years of the game wanted vertical progression in an way, shape, or form.

The people who want this thing are the very people whose reinforcements this francise tried to stop by being different and making the difference popular.

Any move backwards, no matter how small, shows the highest ammount of wrong that we canever get in the developement: that this prime directive was thrown out in favor of more cash.

It doesn’t even matter how subtle they want to go with it (they did say that this is just the beginning). The problem is that at this point we should be already heading even farther away from this type of gameplay.

People aren’t raging because of the size of this step.
They do because it is the worst possible direction.

We should be already full-speed into the opposite direction. That was what Guild Wars was about!

Except how will we know it’s the worst possible ‘direction"?
GW1 think gear progression will ruin the game, yet games with hardcore progression like Wow still strives ( and is actually in better shape than Anet atm, I’d say, given how many of my guildies have quitted to play Panda)

It’s only the worst direction if the community doesn’t give Anet a chance to reach out to new audiences. It’s only heading in the worst direction if all the GW1 fan decided gw2 isn’t worth it because it’s not their ’perfect GW1 clone" and quit.

Whether or not this game is heading towards a bad direction or not depends entirely players and not the design itself, as none of the new designs are actually game breaking.

Long story short, have a little faith in the dev who brought you GW1. Give them some time to try new things instead of melting down whenever a change is coming.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

showatt.9413:

fixit.7189:

Wow, this thread is a mess. They are cramming anything related to this topic right into this one and making it even more confusing than it already is. What real dev is going to even bother reading it now? lol.

It’s actually best that they don’t.

honestly most people here are all about GW1 and wanting to make the game exclusive to GW1 fans.

They don’t want to game to reach out to a new market – instead they’re happy to close their eye and pretend the game isn’t dying because the lack of progression.

Gw2 is nothing like Gw1, which is why the “diehard” gw1 fans have already gone back to gw1.

Gw2 is a game on its own, and it has attracted not only gw1 fans but also fans of other MMO. to satisfy everyone’s need, compromises have to be made. It’s really sad how most of the community doesn’t seem to understand that.

No, most people here don’t want it to be exclusive to GW1. They only point out that you can have a game without gear treadmill that will last for years. Gear treadmill isn’t required. GW2 wasn’t to be about getting the max stats, as those would be fairly easy to get. GW2 was about getting the awesome looks. And those would require more work. And now ANet has decided to scrap that and start to implement a gear treadmill. Only tiny steps at first, but the precedent is there.

A treadmill, which caters to the need of those that comes from a hardcore grinding background, hence reaching out to more audience, instead of catering the game exclusively to GW1 player who prefer only the skin.

GW1 player is pointing out you can have a game that last for year without gear progression – aka Gw1.

Gw2 is , once again, not Gw1.

Gw1 is about getting awesome Skin.

Gw2 is a young game, too early to tell what it is going to be about.

At the rate its heading, I’m pretty sure gw2 will be a game that ‘caters to both fan of gear progression and those who doesn’t want them.’

how do they achieve that?

Well for starter you can’t use better gears in pvp. Spvp are still free of gear grind. Only thing that’s changed is PVE (which is good because doing dungeon is made easy by better gears ) and Wpvp (which you can avoid).

If you want to prove your own worth as a player and show off ur skill, uninfluenced by gears = Spvp

IF you want to do dungeons and get better gear ONLY if you want to = Pve

If you want to help your server win by getting better gear = Wpvp

This is Anet reaching out to new audience.
Somehow you still don’t seem to understand that.

Algreg.3629:

showatt.9413:

fixit.7189:

Wow, this thread is a mess. They are cramming anything related to this topic right into this one and making it even more confusing than it already is. What real dev is going to even bother reading it now? lol.

It’s actually best that they don’t.

honestly most people here are all about GW1 and wanting to make the game exclusive to GW1 fans.

They don’t want to game to reach out to a new market – instead they’re happy to close their eye and pretend the game isn’t dying because the lack of progression.

Gw2 is nothing like Gw1, which is why the “diehard” gw1 fans have already gone back to gw1.

Gw2 is a game on its own, and it has attracted not only gw1 fans but also fans of other MMO. to satisfy everyone’s need, compromises have to be made. It’s really sad how most of the community doesn’t seem to understand that.

well, then it would have been rather up front of them to say “we are making a WoW-hybrid with lots of grinding” instead of boasting for years “we will reinvent the genre and there will be no powercreep and gear treadmill”, wouldn´t you agree?

But then less people will buy their game.

Have you ever heard of a guy called Peter Molyneux?

fixit.7189:

Wow, this thread is a mess. They are cramming anything related to this topic right into this one and making it even more confusing than it already is. What real dev is going to even bother reading it now? lol.

It’s actually best that they don’t.

honestly most people here are all about GW1 and wanting to make the game exclusive to GW1 fans.

They don’t want to game to reach out to a new market – instead they’re happy to close their eye and pretend the game isn’t dying because the lack of progression.

Gw2 is nothing like Gw1, which is why the “diehard” gw1 fans have already gone back to gw1.

Gw2 is a game on its own, and it has attracted not only gw1 fans but also fans of other MMO. to satisfy everyone’s need, compromises have to be made. It’s really sad how most of the community doesn’t seem to understand that.

Levetty.1279:

MrLee.6892:

showatt.9413:

Levetty.1279:

prenavo.3926:

I am very excited for this. I think it is a step in the right direction. No matter how pretty the game is or how cool some of the armor looks, there will always be some form of progression in an mmo. It is the nature of the beast. I think they are taking great strides in trying to make this game appeal to a wide range of tastes as to make the game have a better player retention rate. More people playing is a good thing.
I look at it like this.
1. If you like open world pve…you’ve got it.
2. If you like regular dungeon running…you’ve got it.
3. If you like spvp… you’ve got it.
4. If you like wvw…you’ve got it.
5. And now, if your into getting new things for more power, you’ve got that too.
None of it is required, yet all paths are available for every play style.
In the end in almost every mmo, the acquisition of new stuff is the driving force behind it all. If some people need a carrot on a stick to keep them going, so be it. Eventually, (I’m crossing my fingers here) They may introduce raids!!! GASP!!! Oh the horror! People just need to relax and see where this new stuff takes us. I seriously doubt it’ll be as bad as people think. Besides, even if it did become a wow clone in the future, I’d rather play this than have to pay a monthly sub to do the same thing. People just need to chill out.

Seriously why did you buy GW2 in the first place? Aren’t the millions of other MMOs enough for you? Why does GW2 have to be exactly the same?

The same question can be said for those who believes endgame gear progression is bad thing and believe Gw2 should not include it. Why should GW2 be exactly like GW1?
Now I’m not saying needing to get a certain stat to be able to do dungeon isn’t ridiculous – that’s completely dumb.

But if its just a better tier of gear with non of the infusion stuff I’m all for it. Guild Wars 2 is not meant to be guild war 1 as it is nothing like guild wars 1 from the get go. If I want a game where I’m only ever gonna grind for skin I’ll go play GW1.

Excatly! If people thought that Guild Wars 2 was going to stay the same as Guild Wars 1 then they are in for many more surprises!

Also compared to other MMO’s Guild Wars 2 has many things they don’t have.
Example:

Combat is different
Graphics are different
Questing is different
Dynamic Events is different
Personal Story line is different than most MMO’s (minus SWTOR).
WvWvW is different
Quickbars are different
Being in multiple guilds is different
Dungeons are slightly different
Crafting is slightly different

Its a BUY2PLAY game (which was a huge bonus for me)

Those are just some of the reasons why I bought Guild Wars 2.

You could say if you don’t like the gear progression can just go back and play Guild Wars 1! Be thankful it’s still up and running!
People who did not like SWTOR and wanted to go back to SWG didn’t have that choice!

So in short, GW2 is now just another WoW clone and if you don’t like go play a 7 year old game.

Well enjoy the mess they are creating with this while it lasts. The people who like it will eventually just all head back to WoW just like they have done with every other WoW clone and you will end up with just half a server left.

Sorry, but not every game that has a gear progression is a wow clone.

Number 1, pvp in gw2 is not influenced by gear progression.

As long as you have that, it will never be a wow clone.

Please stop using wow as a reference for all things MMO ty.

Tallis.5607:

Euh… how can you say that adding a new tier of gear is NOT an addition of a gear treadmill?

What else is it then?

It is what it is: they added a new tier of gear, that you must get to do the new end-game-content.

Don’t cover it up and say that it is something else.

The fact that they don’t add all the new tier items in the game at once does not make it anything else then what it is: a new tier of gear.

And this is regarlessly of the infusion stat. If the infusion stat is like -10 agony, then you do not need to grind out the infusion, but you will still need to grind out the new pieces for the extra stats.

If the infusion is like +10 health regeneration, well, then you will have to grind out the infusion too.

But no matter what, you will always have to grind an extra tier.

Err no.

Without the infusion, You don’t HAVE to grind for the extra tier if you don’t want to.

You only need that gear if you want to do the new content, which is stupid.

There’s nothing wrong with having the option to get better gear, so long as it can’t be used in spvp. Why do you guys think endgame gear progression is such an evil thing?
Is having the option to “get better gears that doesn’t makes you overpower in pvp and helps you do dungeon faster” really that bad?

bcbully.7289:

Although I can not stand the rabid fans who twisted and hyped every thing to a unreal level all the while bash other games and people who didn’t agree, I feel sorry for them. They were lied to.

They put there neck out there everyday defending things like the lack if progression and the Halloween event, only to have the rug pulled out from under them.

I for one support the change, but I’m not blind to the pain and embarrassment hardened supporters are feeling.

I hope you guys pull through. We might not always agree, but we are the community, not the devs, publisher, or shareholders. I support you guys.

BC

Amen.

Though I really don’t see what’s so wrong about dev hyping up their game. I mean it’s not like Anet pulled a Peter Molyneux on us and created a gear that’s grossly overpowered to the previous tier.

The gating mechanic must go. Gear progression must be in. That’s my 2 cent.

Smartbean.5960:

I can understand the direction of aquiring gear up to a point. Ascended gear and infusions are interesting, ofcourse a grind to get and ofcourse Arenanet breaking their own philosophy by doing so, but for me a grind is not really the problem.

The biggest problem I see is the AGONY CONDITION. Quote from the blogpost:
“This extremely dangerous condition ticks percentages of player health away and can’t be cleansed by normal means. Players who wish to delve deep into the Fractals will find that Agony makes progress increasingly difficult, until they reach the point where some defense against this condition is a must.”

So…defense from this condition becomes a MUST… this means you NEED to have specific infusion upgrades linked to your gear in order to venture (further) into a dungeon and expirience it’s content.

The above is purposefully creating a gating mechanism 1 on 1 comparable to the Radiance gating mechanism which was implemented by Turbine in the Lord of the Rings Online…long story short:

Turbine realised (far too late, but at least did) that the implementation of their Radiance mechanic was creating more and more of a rift between competitive players and casual players. Casual players got barred from experiencing (new) content because they didn’t have the nescessary amount of Radiance to even enter a (new) dungeon. Eventually Turbine scrapped the whole Radiance mechanic and everyone could experience all content again. More info about this gating system in Lotro: Agony? Infusions? Did none of the Devs play LotRO?

Now, with this AGONY CONDITION creating exactly same gating mechanism (for now only in this dungeon, but it would be naive to think that it won’t be reoccurring in future dungeons), it seems that Arenanet did not learn from mistakes that have occured and resolved in other games. In my opinion the implementation of this agony condition is completely flawed and a definite turn for the worse!

Thank you.

God i wish every player is like you and not such extremist who wish to abolish endgame gear progression entirely.

honestly, Ascended gear should’ve been just another tier of gear with better stats that you can get if you want to, not a requirement for the new dungeon that’s coming out.

Swoo.5079:

Przemek.6835:

Quick and short : when I started playing I had a feeling that people are so nice and you know … “well brained”. Now when ANet tries to do something for A LOT OF PEOPLE that were just getting bored everyone else is crying about it. What I thought is the best, turned out to be the worst, people have a mindset that if there is any gear progression they have to participate in it else they feel inferior to others that have 5% stats more. If you don’t like gear progression, even as little as ANet wants to introduce, either stay away from the new dungeon and help gear up people that want to try it out (because you will need exotics before stepping there) or go craft, farm events or do whatever you want. The game is ment to be fun, and your “fun” doesn’t have to collide with others.

“Fun” being connected to “better stats in items” is a silly notion for many of us tha picked this game (and GW1) in the first place.

I’ll link a post from a dangerous revolutionary that doesn’t want to help the people getting bored:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success/

“Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.” ~Colin Johanson

This guy created a game I wanted to play and I bought it.

“As we watch Guild Wars 2 mature in its Live environment, we have found that our most dedicated players were achieving their set of Exotic gear and hitting “the Legendary wall.” We designed the process of getting Legendary gear to be a long term goal, but players were ready to start on that path much sooner than we expected and were becoming frustrated with a lack of personal progression. Our desire is to create a game that is more inclusive for hardcore and casual players alike, but we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level.
(…)
We have always worked hard to create a sense of satisfying progression rather than gear grind and this new item progression initiative is no exception. By adding challenging new combat mechanics to end-game content and ways to mitigate those mechanics through gear progression for high-end players, we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach” ~Linsey Murdock

This girl isn’t.
(not trying to make a girl vs guy thread, and I know this was approved by more than just these individuals)

What the first guy said is actually a ‘concept’.

Take fable for example. Peter Molyneux hypes his game up so much the actual product is NOTHING like the concept he proposed.

In this regard, Anet does it way better.

The new set of gear actually aren’t that much more powerful than normal exotic, at least not to the point where you can beat up someone in exotic gear without an ounce of skill like most other MMO.

Plus, spvp has no gear progression anyway. Only wvw has, and you can avoid it entirely if you hate progression so much. The point is, Guild war 2 is not like GW1 because Anet is trying to reach out to a boarder audience.

They’re not making the game for you die hard GW1 fan only – they’re making the game to cater to everyone’s need.

What the girl said is the actual ‘product’, and she is actually quite right. There are many who complain about the lack of endgame gear progression.
No one complain about getting better gears when you’re leveling from 1 to 79. Why not? Because it feels natural, and you are given better stuff so you can tackle harder content. You don’t need these better equipment, but its good to have them. This is also gear progression.

So why shouldn’t it be the same as endgame gear progression? Getting better stuff as harder content comes out, so you have something to work towards. The only bad thing this new tier of gear is the gating mechanic to the new dungeon, which requires certain resistance to be able to complete.

This part is absolutely ridiculous because it “FORCES” you to grind, whereas creating better gear merely “MOTIVATE” you to grind. You shouldn’t NEED the better gear that’s coming out. It should be like an extra thing where its good to have but you can do without if you really don’t want to grind for it.

Louveepine.7630:

When I created this, it was not to prohibit or kittening!

It was to ask people to respond constructively! To show that the community can be mature and rich in ideas, and listen will make a great game Gw2

If a child plaind all the time, the parent will say “no” to everything, exasperated by his behavior.

That’s why I asked was that people are calm and react wisely!
Community and not go to a spoiled child …

Sorry if I’m having a hard to explain my point of view … = (

You shouldn’t be sorry.

Honestly, the forum is in a complete meltdown mode right now.
If you say some that merely “SOUND” like you’re supporting Anet’s ideal people are going to take things out of context, ignore what you’re trying to say and jump at you like sharks to baby seals.

All the people I have spoken ingame were pretty laxed about this change.

So I think I’m gonna just sit back and enjoy this mayhem, actually.

Levetty.1279:

prenavo.3926:

I am very excited for this. I think it is a step in the right direction. No matter how pretty the game is or how cool some of the armor looks, there will always be some form of progression in an mmo. It is the nature of the beast. I think they are taking great strides in trying to make this game appeal to a wide range of tastes as to make the game have a better player retention rate. More people playing is a good thing.
I look at it like this.
1. If you like open world pve…you’ve got it.
2. If you like regular dungeon running…you’ve got it.
3. If you like spvp… you’ve got it.
4. If you like wvw…you’ve got it.
5. And now, if your into getting new things for more power, you’ve got that too.
None of it is required, yet all paths are available for every play style.
In the end in almost every mmo, the acquisition of new stuff is the driving force behind it all. If some people need a carrot on a stick to keep them going, so be it. Eventually, (I’m crossing my fingers here) They may introduce raids!!! GASP!!! Oh the horror! People just need to relax and see where this new stuff takes us. I seriously doubt it’ll be as bad as people think. Besides, even if it did become a wow clone in the future, I’d rather play this than have to pay a monthly sub to do the same thing. People just need to chill out.

Seriously why did you buy GW2 in the first place? Aren’t the millions of other MMOs enough for you? Why does GW2 have to be exactly the same?

The same question can be said for those who believes endgame gear progression is bad thing and believe Gw2 should not include it. Why should GW2 be exactly like GW1?
Now I’m not saying needing to get a certain stat to be able to do dungeon isn’t ridiculous – that’s completely dumb.

But if its just a better tier of gear with non of the infusion stuff I’m all for it. Guild Wars 2 is not meant to be guild war 1 as it is nothing like guild wars 1 from the get go. If I want a game where I’m only ever gonna grind for skin I’ll go play GW1.

ASP.8093:

showatt.9413:

You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

Because blingy looks turn heads, whereas nobody wants to look at screenshots of your stats.

The “prestige skins” model kept people playing GW1 for a long time. Folks did all kinds of crazy grindy stuff in FoW and DoA for prestige skins — and other folks who didn’t want to didn’t have to, without feeling like they were being denied anything. WoW-style tiered gear is actually much, much worse. With fancy skins, your old gear never becomes useless. You just acquire more options as you play.

At the end of the day, a lot of the psychological validation in MMOGs comes from playing dress-up. The endless slog for higher numbers is clumsy design and causes just as much burnout as it cures.

That’s probably true for many people. And yet what if you have obtain a desirable look at low level?

Some of the lower level gears actually look better than endgame gears. Once you have obtain these, there really isn’t any need for you to advance further other than getting exotic gear and then transmute them to fit the style.

Long story short, I believe gear progression in general is always needed, and endgame gear progression is also beneficial on the condition that you don’t NEED better endgame gear to complete new content.

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

This is clearly talking about progression of stats on gear at the level cap.
.

Lemme show you my original quote.

“As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding (nicer term here would be “playing the game”) . How most MMORPG employ these progression in the past though, is by separating these two progression into two category – PVE, and PVP . "

This is my original paragraph.
Here, I"m talking about gear progression in general.
This is you taking things out of context:

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413:

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding

To claim that “all MMORPGs have gear progression” just shows your ignorance.

In that statement, I was talking about gear progression as a whole. You grind, you farm, you get better gear. This is the same reason why we don’t have lvl 15 exotic -

Gear Progression.

Somehow you take it out of context and put word in my mouth claiming I’m saying all game has endgame progression – where with every expansion better gear comes out.

Hope this clear things up for you.
Its pretty hilarious that you consider your own post worth reading while you couldn’t even bother to read other people’s carefully. You want to display your own intelligence and make your own post seem more readable by putting other people’s word out of context. Sorry it didn’t work out for you.

Thankfully I’m not going to say things like " I won’t read your post anymore.’ That’s just childish and as long as you have a point to make I’ll always read it.

marianojc.2965:

showatt.9413:

For player versus player, gear progression kills the game. Player who spent more time getting better gear will destroys those without. This is bad. Everyone knows this is bad.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have this design, so crisis averted. (And yet baddies STILL manage to find excuses for their incompetence, whether it’s class or lags… i suppose that’s inevitable, though.)

For WvWvW we use the same gear as for PvE, so if Ascended gear gives better stats it means that all WvWvW PvP players will have to play dungeons to get that edge. I would suggest that Ascended gear rather had slightly worse stats, however with the option to put resistance upgrades.

I agree. This sounds like a better way to go in regards to new content.

Munrock.3092:

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.” -Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto; April 5th, 2010

What I get from the Ascended/Agony mechanic description: You can’t play against agony-inflicting mobs without getting the gear first.

“So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral.”

If you don’t have the requisite gear, no creativity is going to save you. As Lindsey Murdock wrote in the recent statement: “The only way to mitigate Agony damage is by building up resistance through Infusions, a new type of upgrade component that can be acquired in the Mystic Forge.”

Sounds like a terrible design :s

Looks like I’m really gonna have to start looking for new games.

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413:

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.

This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.

The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.

I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"

You’re really not worth responding too as your posts are extremely contradictory. The mods should lock this thread as it will only descend into a flame war.

It only descend into flame war if people like you come here and reply it with the intention of flaming. Plenty of people are able to read it and understand what I was talking about – only a few seek to attempt taking things out of context and try to derail what’s at stake by poking at areas where I was using general gear progression as an examaple.

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

This is clearly talking about progression of gear at the level cap.

showatt.9413:

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole. I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

I won’t be responding to you again. You blatantly contradict yourself. You will also only be to OP until the moderators merge this back into the mega-thread. :-P

I posted a cogent argument thinking that you honestly didn’t know why people were outraged. I see now that you are not interested in a real discussion, only repeating your position.

I actually have read all of your points, and I have to agree you are pretty much right in every aspect. There are even some I never thought about such as “old content becomes useless.”

I would argue against this by saying that this is also happening to Gw2 atm, which has not yet created a endgame gear progression (but soon will be). People don’t go to lower level area because they simply dont need to, hence its always empty.

This is actually not something that’s induced by gear progression, or endgame progression for that matter. Old content will always become useless once you play through them unless an incentive is put there to draw you back in.

The only issue I have with your post is you attempting to discredit by post by generalizing what I’m trying to put across – that is gear progression as a whole, and not endgame progression.

jboynton.7894:

showatt.9413:

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413:

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

Ascended gear is endgame gear. A new tier of endgame gear above the tiers that already exist. A new tier that is being introduced a little more than two months following release, despite having been told this would never happen.

This discussion is about endgame gear, regardless of whether or not you’re the OP. The poster you quoted was correct in calling the previous post a strawman argument.

The discussion is about gear progression in general, and how it relates to what’s happening now.

I first start by stating gear progression is the norm withing MMO business, and then explain why it is this way, why our gear progress in general. " because it offers a player a sense of growth. " I never said Endgame progression is in every MMO"

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413:

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level.

A very poor attempt at a straw man argument.

No one is arguing against gear progression while leveling. People are upset about gear progression at level cap. Read the negative affects I listed about the actual problem under discussion, and then try responding again. Without the ad hominem.

Actually, I am talking about gear progression as a whole.

I am the OP. I decide the topic of discussion and see if people joins in.

IF you want to talk about endgame gear progression, and then take things out of context, go somewhere else. kthx.

ThiBash.5634:

Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO

That’s entirely untrue. Guild Wars didn’t have gear progression and did fine.

The real issue here is that 99 out of 100 MMO’s use gear progression. People who chose Guild Wars 2 because of the lack of gear progression are rightfully upset about the fact that Guild Wars 2 plans on making that a perfect 100.

We don’t need it. We don’t want it. It shouldn’t be implemented.

I’m not just talking about endgame gear. I’m talking about gear progression’s design as a whole. If gear progression isn’t neccessary then we should just all wear lvl 80 exotic at level 1 and just grind for skin.

Gear progression is needed, again, as I have stated, because it gives the player a sense of growth. Guild War has a system where your gear progress for a while and then stop when you hit a certain level, after that everything has the same stat. This is also gear progression, because before you hit a certain level your gear still increase in quality as you go.

Sam.4728:

showatt.9413:

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding

I’m sorry, but you are just wrong. GW1 had three expansions and loads of content added over the 7 years it existed. You obtained your “best in slot” gear about halfway through the core game. Expansions never made that gear better. GW2 was sold under the claim that it would be like GW1 in this respect: skill-based, not time-spent-based.

To claim that “all MMORPGs have gear progression” just shows your ignorance.

Failure to read the post properly showcase your…well…stupidity.

Gear progression means not just obtaining the best gear possible, but also when you’re lower level and you get better gear as you level. This whole mechanic helps the player feels a sense of growth.

A game without gear progression would be a game where you are wearing the best available gear at level 1 and everything you earn after is purely aesthetic. IF theres a game like that I haven’t played, Lemme know.

Long story short, Gear progression =/= Endgame Gear Progression.

There’s a difference. Please read carefully before you attempt to showcase your own intelligence because more times than not it only makes you look like a fool.

penatbater.4710:

showatt.9413:

2. For player versus environment, gear progression is bad because players with access to better gear is always going to be a preference in dungeons – but then this is inevitable.
The current Guild Wars 2 attempts to address this issue by making exotic easy to obtain, yet still people prefer to play with those with better gears. Most people is always on the lookout for an easy way around problems. Even with content scaling people still does it, and maybe we should just accept it : nothing can be done about this.

I somewhat agree on the general idea of your post but I’m calling this one out. While I’m sure this has happened to some people, more often than not, no one really cares about having exotics (except when you’re doing coe or arah probably) but rather cares more about the class (which is why you WILL see /m that says “LFM TA explo pref war/guard pls”

I just find this a weird argument overall. How many times have you guys been denied access to even cof or hotw dungeons because “you’re not level 80 and you’re not in exo gear”?

Having exotic gear helps increase speed of the dungeon is completed.
You don’t find people caring about exotic alot, sure, but it does happen on few occasions for harder dungeons like Arah.

Transit.4158:

“You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?”

This is EXACTLY what I and many others find extremely satisfying.
I could not care less for seeing higher numbers on my screen, I just want to get a set that has the max stats and then work towards getting the rare skins, now I can’t.
Now I have to get the max stats, work towards getting a rare skin, then comes this update and I have to shift my focus for a while to get the new max stats, then I can continue working towards the skin I want (until they release even highers stats…).

Adding higher number gear to the game does NOTHING but take time away from me that I wanted to spend doing kitten I like, which definitively is not some mandatory grind to stay relevant.

Then MMO is not for you.

Better gear will always come out.

When level cap increase so does the quality of the gear.

When new expansion comes out so does new legendary weapons.

That’s inevitable.

What’s preventable is needing a certain gear in order to complete a certain part of a dungeon, which is a ridiculous design and should be avoided at all cost.

Jezath.7395:

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

It’s not just “something inbetween exotic and Legendary” if these gears has a stat that is required to complete a certain part of a dungeon.

You can have the legendary gear and still not able to do the dungeon because you don’t have the cure for agony, which is entirely dumb.

BurnedToast.3781:

Jezath.7395:

Look… Everyone is totall;y out of control with there defiance of these ascended items.. The items are pretty much the same as exotics, its just insterad of having to upgrade them, the upgrade is already in them.. The infusion as far as i understand it is only effective in the new dungeon being released.. So I really donyt see what the problem is… Everyone was moaning about the grind for legendarys so they put something inbetween exotic and legendary. Now people are moaning about that, c’mon guys you cant have it both ways :S

New tier between exotic and legendary with slightly better stats = fine (though legendary previously had the same stats as exotic but whatever)

New tier between exotic and legendary that has a REQUIRED stat that gates content and forces you to grind it, along with the suggestion that this is just the start of content gating and forced item progression = not fine.

It’s pretty much the exact opposite of what they promised GW2 was going to be about.

Short and concise.
Nicely put.

thefounder.2074:

oh ya, i read it alright. i understand youre ok with gear progression and so am i; if it entails some sort of fun and challenging content, anything that leads to a sense of achievement and growth of my character, i welcome it. but i see alot of panic on these forums about the wrong issue. and i wouldnt even call this progression because there is absolutely no gear requirement for any “tier” or dungeon in the game. just felt your post is perpetuating this panic, although you meant in an indirect way to deflate the panic.

and youre right.. my rhetorical question should have been phrases “why the kitten care..”

Neither is my intention.

I seek to increase the panic to a point where Anet would reevaluate their design, if the new gears come out and I’ll have to grind them in order to access a certain part of the dungeon. This is an outdated design that enforces meaningless grind and should have been left out of GW2.

However, if that is not the case – which has been said that it sadly IS – then the purpose of my post would be to deflate the response players have been giving. My post is written as a double edged sword that either add oil to fire or become the cancer cure depend on how this new content is released.

Things, however, really aren’t looking too good.

The problem is not the stat of the gears.

When the level cap is raised, you can bet the level 85 gears are going to be better than lvl 80s.

The problem is with the content.

Do we need this new tier of gear to access the dungeon or not?

If a certain part is restricted to those with the ascended gear, that means its a mechanic that forces you to grind. This is bad and outdated design, a bad employment of gear progression, which is used by all other traditional MMO.

If this is coming to Gw2, and all future dungeons will be created this way, with a certain part limited to people with certain gear, then you might as well go play another MMO.

thefounder.2074:

who cares? who seriously cares…. if you PVE, youre going to be grinding some dungeon so why the KITTEN not grind this new set. PVE in GW2 is a faceroll. gear is so inconsequential. when was the last time you replied to a LFM and the leader interrogated you about your level or gear? me? never. not once. why? because Exp Modes are laughably easy and you can PUG them with everyone in Fine armor (blues).

anything that steps up the challenge and thus, fun.. in PVE is fine with me. bring it on. because PVE right now is pathetically easy… youtube “10minute CoF” or “7minute AC” where 2 players.. ya, flipping 2 players complete AC Exp in 7minutes…. lame. so KITTEN lame and boring. so yes… PVE needs deeper mechanics than button mashing, circle dodging and im more worried that the new content will be more of the facerolll than i am worried about new gear with SLIGHTLY better stats. especially since gear means almost nothing in this game.

I like how you jump into this thread all guns blazing without having read the post.
As for your question “who cares”, you only need to go to the other post about the new content – the one with 2777 replies – to see plenty of people actually cares.

MrLee.6892:

What a great, well thought out post! Thank you!

Also to add, they have also said that there will be 200 new recipes coming out for crafting. We do not know if this will include ascended gear or not. But if it does, then thats another way to obtain it and not have to do dungeons.

Indeed,

but the limited amount of lvl 80 crafting node (orichalcum ore and ancient woods) prevents people from accessing these gears easily. If Anet could have mercy and increase the number of these nodes, the game will be infinitely more enjoyable.

Yes, yes, ArenaNet’s bringing out another tier of armor, hereby retracting their belief that gear progression is evil. Let’s all huddle together and cry ourselves to sleep.

No, wait. Let’s not.

Instead, let’s have a look at how gear progression has been employed, rather than what it is.

As far as MMORPG business goes, Gear progression has always existed. Always, you will be able to acquire stronger, better looking armor through farming and grinding (nicer term here would be “playing the game”) . How most MMORPG employ these progression in the past though, is by separating these two progression into two category – PVE, and PVP .

The most recent title which follows such system is SWTOR, which requires you to grind dungeon for a set of PVE gear, and then PVP for a set of PVP gear. Most free-to-play titles also follow this format because it’s a well established design dated all the way back to the nineties.

The key word here is Well established, meaning that player can instantly recognize the design, therefore spending less time in figuring the system out and more times on playing (grinding) the actual game.

Just because a design is well established, doesn’t mean it isn’t outdated and bad, though. People hate gear progression. They hate it to the point when lose shore is announced they talked about boycotting the new event and even getting a refund (haha oh wow…)

This all seem very strange to me; because there really isn’t anything wrong with gear progression in its entirety. Gear progression offers player a sense of accomplishment over time and gives you something to work towards as you play. It baffles me why such a brilliant design is often scoffed at until I look at some of the replies and realize – most people don’t actually have a problem with “Gear progression”.

Rather, they have problem with how it is employed. Here are some of the common problems -

For player versus player, gear progression kills the game. Player who spent more time getting better gear will destroys those without. This is bad. Everyone knows this is bad.
Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have this design, so crisis averted. (And yet baddies STILL manage to find excuses for their incompetence, whether it’s class or lags… i suppose that’s inevitable, though.)

2. For player versus environment, gear progression is bad because players with access to better gear is always going to be a preference in dungeons – but then this is inevitable.
The current Guild Wars 2 attempts to address this issue by making exotic easy to obtain, yet still people prefer to play with those with better gears. Most people is always on the lookout for an easy way around problems. Even with content scaling people still does it, and maybe we should just accept it : nothing can be done about this.

3. Again, for player versus environment, Gear progression CAN be a bad thing because if a certain dungeon requires you to possess a minimum gear or else you will absolutely fail, then you are denied that content and instead you’re forced to grind for these gears for hours on end.

Is that’s what’s coming to guild wars 2?
Judging from the information given, it certainly seems like it.
New condition that require special gear to resist? Check. New dungeon has this new condition in place? Check. Having to grind for this new set of tier in order to complete new dungeons?

…

if the answer is Check, then Guild Wars 2 has revert back to the well established, but outdated and horrible mechanics that everyone hates.

If the answer is not, however, then there really isn’t anything wrong with adding a new set of gear. If we can still enjoy the new content, complete it with relative ease without having to worry so much about the ‘agony’ condition and the need to find infusion gears, I welcome the chance at acquiring better gears.

Face it, new gear is always going to come out sooner or later. Gear progression is an absolute necessity to MMO. It gives you a sense of achievement, it prolong your playtime and it give you a reason to grind. In the future, when the level cap is raised, you can be prepared for new exotics that offer better stats than your current level 80s.

Contrary, a game without gear progression is plain bad because at max level you’re basically just playing dress-up with your character. You pour hours and hours into grinding, only to acquire some skins, how is that satisfying?

Long story short, Gear progression itself isn’t evil.

The way gear progression is employed in modern day MMORPG is. Needing certain degree of gears to do dungeon or to PVP is.

So no, I’m not going to whine about Anet adding more gear progression – unless I need those new gear to complete those new dungeons, and I suggest you don’t until we’ve figure out just how difficult those new dungeons are without the new tier of gears.

Cheers!

daphoenix.4283:

@undermine

sorry I had assumed you were talking about me. In the last wvwvw matchup, I got accused of hacking alot on the thread and in game

Not surprised at all lmao

If you can turn what most people considered a sub-par class into an unstoppable killing machine, obviously your victims are gonna be in denial and accuse you of hacking :P

keep up the good work!

fixit.7189:

Lesson I learned this week; I can’t 1 v 30+ people and retake EB by myself.

BOO!

Lesson I learned this week; SoR and IoJ needs more Aussies.

Denim Samurai.2379:

Brazensage.1328:

Denim Samurai.2379:

I don’t like playing low level zones because they drop low level loot. I’m fine picking up some of the crafting mats cause I can drop those in collectibles but almost all the low level stuff that drops isn’t worth picking up. Making them drop only high level gear would present another problem, though, as low level gear could then only be obtained by low level characters. Maybe a way to toggle what kind of loot you want dropped? IDK.

If I understand your point correctly you want the ability for a higher level character to pick up lower lvl loot? I don’t quite get why you would want this, other then the context of crafting materials (I think crafting mats should stay to the lvl relevant to that area). Any other loot should scale to your lvl. If you want lower lvl items from the same area, just farm with your lower lvl character who will be using them.

high level characters do pick up both high and low level loot when visiting lower level zones. When I go through a low level zone I get a mix of 72-80 gear and 1-10 gear. Most of the 1-10 gear just plain ain’t worth my bag space.

But then high level character can just cheese their way out in low lvl zone hoping for a rare/exotic as compare to farming in curse shore.

Nah. There are other ways to motivate high lvl players to return to a lower lvl zone, and changing loot drop isn’t one of them imo.

Legendaries are tough to get???

I’d say that’s a bit of an understatement :p

Legendaries are not “realistic” to get until you actually HAVE the precursor. Then it becomes “tough” to get.

Have fun throwing 4 rares into forge and crossing your finger for a precursor. It’s either that or compete against the goldseller in a race to farm gold.

Yeah that multi-tier heart idea is way more practical than any of the underflow ideas (no offense. ) And it actually make a lot more sense too. If you keep going back to help a certain NPC, obviously he or she is going to be more grateful than you helping them once. He or she is going to be SO grateful he might reward you with a family hand-me-downs or some nice jug of karma. Honestly everything about this idea shouts brilliant design.

Brazensage.1328:

I don’t remember if it was character specific or not. You’d have to look at the experience decay to be sure.

As for salvaging globs, do you mean that you have to farm mats on different characters? As far as I know actual salvaging of items is not related to DR.

But it is though. IF you salvage tons of lvl 68 + equips, the rate of you getting globs goes down til you’re getting like 1 glob out of every 10 rare you salvage. ( I don’t salvage exotic – they’re too precious to me :P) I’ll post some evidence to this later when I feel like logging on again.

Denim Samurai.2379:

I don’t like playing low level zones because they drop low level loot. I’m fine picking up some of the crafting mats cause I can drop those in collectibles but almost all the low level stuff that drops isn’t worth picking up. Making them drop only high level gear would present another problem, though, as low level gear could then only be obtained by low level characters. Maybe a way to toggle what kind of loot you want dropped? IDK.

IF the Trading post is server specific and not Game specific, the price of fine mats would not go down so quickly (due to bots farming and increased drop rate on high population server), you can sell the lower lvl mats for a good profit.

Well that’s out of the window as of now.

Brazensage.1328:

showatt.9413:

Brazensage.1328:

ANet has been very hush hush about the specifics of DR. If you have DR on you it effects both experience and loot drops for a particular area in PVE. Best way to keep track of DR is to keep a record of how much xp you get per kill. Once that starts to dimininish greatly…you know you have hit DR. Expect loot to go from mostly junk (normal), to total junk, to nothing at all.

The entire DR system is ridiculously designed and does absolutely nothing to what it set out to do. The purpose of a drop/ exp DR in pve is used to prevent botting, as well as forcing player to do other content of the game.

But botting still exist – all botters have to do is set their pathway long enough to cover different zone and they can farm to their heart’s content. Meanwhile legit player who wishes to farm are forced to travel long distance so they can bypass the DR.

And to add oil to the fire, the entire game is based upon the premises of farming. Don’t believe me? take a look at the ridiculous amount of things needed for dungeon skins and crafted items. You have a DR on glob. You have a DR in dungeon. So you are forced to salvage items SLOWLY, and grind through dungeon SLOWLY.

Anet wants you to play every part of their content, and they’re punishing you for wanting your own ways to make money, having your own ways to have fun. How about a little less “communist manifesto” and a little more freedom? How about a little less grind and a little more rewards? How about making your legendary weapon actually obtainable by the common mass?

Have a look at all the other leveling zone. They all feel empty. Tons of dynamic events are left unfinished. How are new players supposed to have fun with no one to play around with and forced to do events all by themselves, especially when only few of the dynamic events are scaled by the number of participant participating?

I agree with most of what you say. I was one of the louder objectionists when they first announced DR and left the details of it out. TBH, they should take the DR out completely and find better ways to manage bots, mainly just hire more GMs and volunteer GMs (paid with gems or something). However, since the release of DR I have yet to hit it once, especially with the more recent tweaks and bug fixes to it. Case in point: there was a bugged area in Gendarran Fields on my server that infinitely spawned undead. I sat there an farmed the area with a dozen other people for more then an hour without hitting DR.

Again, I am not a proponent of DR, but I think most of the concern about it is sensationalized.

It’s not just the DR on loot though. There are DR pretty much with everything you do.

Do too much of anything and DR kicks in.

Every time I want to salvage item and get some globs I have to do it by character (I was told than DR are character specific) and even then it still feels like I’m getting Capped.

Aridia.3042:

There’s no reason to revisit the areas you’ve done. I think they need to give incentives for people to return to the areas.

They need to make mult-tier heart vendors. First time you finish it the heart turns yellow and you get to buy something from NPC. If you go back, and redo the quest and help the NPCs, the heart might turn red, green, blue, purple etc, and should all have better rewards that you can buy, like dyes, maybe new armor skins, hats, hair pins, weapon skins that you can apply dyes, or maybe even one time temporary things like bulk buying certain foods for cheap etc.

That is good design.
the colour of the heart could fade over time as well so you can keep going back to do them. And every time you do you recieve a nice reward. Something like 3 U-dye or 1 R-dye. Fine transmutation stone…. etc.

Something people generally need.

Not some green weapons the only thing they’re good for is vendoring.

Polle.6908:

Once people hit level 80 and finish getting their gear, you’ll find people going to low level zones again for 100% map completion and dailies. Population of areas depend on timezone, server, popularity and luck. You can’t base your case on some empty patches you hit. I’m on my way to 100% map completion and usually the low level Human, Norn and Asura zones have plenty of players. Usually 4-5 people per event.

Its all about timing my friend.

So a new player walks into the game and he thinks to himself : hmm I’m gonna do some Dynamic Events. But guess what, his timing is off. No one is around. Tries to do the DE himself – got destroyed and receive chimp changes for rewards.

Fun.

Teleporting to another area there are 1 – maybe – 2 people trying to repel the creatures invading the town. But guess what the event isn’t scaled to the number of people participating so they got wiped again.

Fun.

Sadly, the OP probably isn’t basing his experience on some empty patches. I have experienced cases where the entire map has only 2 or 3 people doing stuff, and I was on tarnish coast at the time. Also had a few cases where the entire orr map is contested there as well.

Population issue has starting to rise, and imo its happening way too early for a revolutionary game like Gw2. There are key issues that the dev needs to address, and the issues aren’t the lack of content.