Dual skills are a wide concept.
Two traits aren’t a proof that all dual skills are meant to deal high damage. That’s not logic.
It’s like saying that because warriors have a trait which doubles the Physical utility skills damage, Physical skills are meant to deal damage, so all Physical skills should be reworked to deal high damage. This logic is heavily flawed.
Dual Skills are meant to be damage skills, if they were not, WHY is there traits dedicated to giving them more damage, that doesn’t make sense to a utility skill, and your counter-acting what you said before about the skill doing good damage, now its a utility skill?
Why do we have traits to increase the damage by a mere 5% and critical chance by a mere 5% to one attack if the damage is not significant?
Because those traits are not minor. You are not forced to pick those traits, you pick them only if they are worth using in your build. This doesn’t mean that a trait should be always useful to your specific build.
Dual skills are not meant to be utility skills.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dual_wield_skill
Deadly Arts
Combined Training – Dual skills deal 5% more damage.Critical Strikes
Combo Critical Chance – Dual skills have a +5% chance to critical hit.4/5 are the utility skills.
Theres no point to use these traits for flanking strike because it does such low damage, Dual Skills ARE damage skills, otherwise they would not have traits dedicated to making them do more damage!
Since this seems to be not the case for most of them besides Death Blossom, I think these traits need a big change.
Don’t generalize.
It was pretty obvious that Flanking Strike isn’t a damage skill.
Unload, on the other hand, is a damage skill. So is Pistol Whip in some aspects.
The fact that there are triats like those, doesn’t mean that all dual skills are meant to be damage skills. It doesn’t mean also that those traits are meant to synergize well with all dual skills.
Because you have 12-15 Initiative, and your using flanking strike twice that is 8 initiative, then you use another attack and have 1 or 0 left, how exactly, pray tell, do you kill the target now? he has abilities that are not on cool-down, and if hes another thief, he has 12-15 initiative at his disposal ready to strike at you.
Dancing Dagger does little damage, might as well not use it, it costs too much initiative and most classes can remove a condition every 10 seconds for free.
Infiltrator’s Strike is VERY nice, but if your enemy is 901 meters away, you will do absolutely nothing and waste 3 initiative.
You “need” initiative to kill someone.
If you used FS twice and failed to remove the key boons, than you failed.
The main source of damage of a S/D thief, like or not, is the autoattack.
Who said that an autoattack should deal less damage compared to other skills? Many autoattacks in this game deal more damage that any other skill in the same bar. Just look at Necro’s dagger, Warrior’s axe, hammer and greatsword, Ranger’s sword, shortbow, longbow and greatsword and so on…
In many cases, autoattack is a source of damage, it isn’t something you use while all your skills are unavailable.
Flanking Strike is an utility, which also deals a bit more damage than autoattack, but its main scope isn’t empty life bars. So is Dancing Dagger. The nerf to its damage was a clear message; it is meant to be an utility, not a damage output skill.
If the enemy is 901 meters away, you closed the gap for 900 meters, so you are 1 meter away from your target. Pretty good, don’t you think?
You have on your bar 2 skills who are capable to close a gap or snare your enemy, plus the utilities and the other weapon set you have, most likely a ranged set (shortbow maybe?). So, a running target shouldn’t be a problem at all.
You know I like being useful in groups, but its hard to be useful in groups when autoattack is your highest damage ability!
You know, its nice to steal all of someones buffs, but then you have 0 initiative and he has 90% of his health… Then he can just run away and reset the fight!
Dude, you have just to remove the most worthy boons, not spamming your Flanking Strike until your enemy is cleaned. Is that so hard to get?
How can he run away and reset the fight if you have Dancing Dagger and Infiltrator’s Strike?
Yeah, because it takes 2 people, a S/D Thief and another guy just to kill one guy. (maybe because it does less damage then autoattack… LOL)
And barely hits?
Again with this less than autoattack kitten.
I know that you are usual to mash three buttons and get a kill, but usually Guild Wars 2 isn’t about this.
I hope you are going to make a tl:dr with all those reserved posts.
there is a trait of the necro that put fear on opponent if you are CC. it works 100% against a thief who decided to steal you.
btw if you see a thief with both arms down maybe it means he is channeling. blind/fear/stun/daze him and he will waste fear+chances he is dead meat.edit: i didnt read allthe thread, but it seems someone already talked about that trait
1. Reaper’s Protection is T2 Death Magic trait. This means you are going to take anyway Reanimator and Protection of the Horde, two completely useless traits in most situations.
2. If you pick up Reaper’s Protection, you are not taking either Greater Marks or Staff Mastery, which are pretty much must-have traits on most Necros, at least compared to a 2s fear on a 90s cooldown.
Also, Skull fear can be casted in stealth. How you see someone raising his hands to fear someone when he is invisible?
(edited by sorrow.2364)
So, 3s AoE hard CC who can be casted in Stealth on a profession which can potentially burst down people in a bit more than a second is ok.
The funny part is that people are saying Necros have Death Shroud! It’s like stolen fear can be used only on Necros.
Read the thread. Play the class. Learn the class. Play other classes. Learn those classes. Learn the skills available. Learn the mechanics…and then I’ll discuss with you, anything that needs discussing.
I’ve read the thread.
I play thief. 100+ PvP matches are played on thief, most of them are on S/D.
I played all the professions in the game, not every profession extensively (I have yet to play enough Engineer).
Am I worth arguing with you, sir?
@ sorrow: I have a very serious question for you. Can you play ANY class effectively?
…because to me, it seems like you just like to troll forums (especially the thief forum) and be clueless, while trying to sound convincing with senseless arguments.
It’s like you’re trying to argue…but with wrong arguments, your personal fantasy, and with numbers and theories on paper. Thus, making yourself look like a fool and a butt hurt player who dies to the squishiest class in the game, no matter what build they fight against.
FS is a garbage skill. Utterly garbage!!! I have personally NEVER used sword on my thief besides when I used to play a daze build (before that was unnecessarily nerfed too) to try benefit my team in a TEAM fight.
I don’t care about your opinion if you just say, using your words, senseless arguments, to justify why FS is garbage.
What do you guys say to justify that FS is garbage?
FS is a garbage skill. Utterly garbage!!! I have personally NEVER used sword on my thief besides when I used to play a daze build (before that was unnecessarily nerfed too) to try benefit my team in a TEAM fight.
Does it look a valid argument?
I just see the statement that FS is garbage without any piece of reasoning behind.
While I have explained multiple times in this topic and in other topics in the Thief forum why S/D and Flanking Strike is far from garbage, the only answer I get is “FS is garbage”. I’ve also posted some verified numbers to prove that, in fact, FS make more dps than autoattack to prove that some guys were wrong, but looks like that to you, they are only:
wrong arguments, your personal fantasy, and with numbers and theories on paper. Thus, making yourself look like a fool and a butt hurt player who dies to the squishiest class in the game, no matter what build they fight against.
While some unverified and made-up stats are more worthy than real numbers.
I’m the fool and butt hurt player who dies to the squishiest class in the game? Holy kitten. I’m actually defending Flanking Strike saying that it is good while you people say it’s garbage and it’s me the butt hurt player? Not you who are not capable to play a build without mashing your buttons at random hoping to get a kill?
That’s not me the problem here.
Infiltrator’s Strike+Flanking Strike – 2 sec
252+252+504=1008
Slice+Slash+Crippling Strike 2.5 sec
269+269+437=975Yes you are right. 3 percent more than the auto attack. This changes everything.
When did the Infiltrator’s Strike came in?
Flanking Strike: 756/1.5 = 504 dps
Autoattack: 975/2.5 = 390 dps
That’s 29% more dps.
With an evade and a boon removal, of course.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
How is the fact that a necro literally standing in one spot spamming aoes on a point able to kill an entire team by themselves in a matter of seconds not broken?
How is the fact that if that necro is not dealt with immediately, your team will lose the team fight 100% of the time not broken?
I wonder why every team is now running at least one necro……?
Caltrops and Uncatchable.
Thieves don’t even need to spam skills in order to kill an entire group.
The topic is back to the point again.
Let’s focus on 3s fear now.
Hundred Blades does 50k Damage.
This does nothing but damage, so it should be high, you can avoid it.
It does the same amount of damage as whirling wrath.
But with an evade and 0s recharge.
If you think it is balanced, I really don’t know how to rationally argue with you.
Yeah! 7 Initative to do the same damage as one autoattack and steal a boon!
no
less than autoattack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flanking_Strike_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slice_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slash_
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crippling_Strike
A full autoattack chains need 2.52s to fully land.
Do your math.
My Flanking Strike always hit the target with the first strike (actually the evading animation is fast) when I use it in melee range while sometimes it misses the second strike.
I mean, have you looked at what you proposed?
You didn’t specified the initiative cost, but I’ll assume that it completely unload your initiative bar to be half close to be balanced.
If you are capable using that skill two times in a row, it is for sure hell game breaking.
2*1250 damage is 2300 damage.
It is the damage of 3 full damage backstabs (800*3), but AoE and with 3/4s channel time. This means that in 1s and an half you are capable to deal 20k+ AoE damage while evading.
Just lol.
Yeah! 7 Initative to do the same damage as one autoattack and steal a boon!
Probably it isn’t all about damage?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/sorrow-2364/showposts
All your posts are just critic posts, I have not seen one post where you have made constructive feedback to an idea other then “Wow this is a terrible idea!” Why not explain in detail why its a terrible idea and what you would do to change it to not make it worthless, because seriously, how many thieves in SPvP use S/D in tournament play, None of them.
If only 2% of a population of a class uses an ability and the rest refuse to use it, then there is something wrong with it.
I’ve clearly posted the reason because I think that your idea is an horrible idea.
In the case you missed that, here are the quotes:
“Infiltrator’s Strike is hell good as it is now.
Come on, everyone wants a teleport with damage, immobilization, an on-demand stunbreak with a condition removal whose initiative cost can also be paid in installments.
Do you really think that adding also a boon removal makes some sense?”
“Flanking Strike’s first strike ALWAYS hit if you are in melee range (the pathing adjust on the enemy if you press the button while close enough), the second one may miss, but you are able to move once the first strike hit, so you have control over the second hit to land. Obviously the first hit is the worthy one, because it removes the boon.”
“So, you don’t only want to remove the only cheap boon removal thief has, so the only tool he has against bunkers, but you also want to make it into a spammable 3/4s channel time, evade and 1200+ damage whirl.”
On the other hand, the only reasoning from your side is:
“how many thieves in SPvP use S/D in tournament play, None of them.”
“Thieves need access to more non-stealthy damaging abilities, a small whirl attack would make a lot more sense then a long winded poor tracking attack that pretty much puts you randomly around the target.”
Those are far to be a well reasoned arguments. They are most likely “ kitten Flanking Strike is bad. Give us a whirl instead because whirl makes sense!”.
Actually there are thieves who use S/D, many of them also love this set.
The point is that most thieves prefer to play high-skill-required specs like P/D conditions spamming, hasted heartseekers or backstab.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Which is a chance to also fail, almost 50%,
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike would be much better boon removal, and don’t say thats overpowered, because it really is not, you would have to spend 5 initative to do just that over/over, that ability is NOT spammable, you have to use the other ability first before you can use it again.
Whatever, none of my ideas make sense obviously, since i’m obviously much worse then you are and I cannot compare to the ideas you have come up with and everyone uses S/D.
The first hit never fail if you are close enough. Just test it out.
Infiltrator’s Strike is hell good as it is now.
Come on, everyone wants a teleport with damage, immobilization, an on-demand stunbreak with a condition removal whose initiative cost can also be paid in installments.
Do you really think that adding also a boon removal makes some sense?
Flanking strike – 1.5 second cast time|low damage|worst animation
Your theoretical reasoning does not matter. In tpvp fs – useless crap.
Yep.
Your made-up datas matter instead. 1.5s cast time? Seriously? Where did you take that info?
I’ll give you some certified data instead.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flanking_Strike_
253+504=756 (damage booster are multiplicative, so it makes sense)
Backstab is 806, just saying.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
You ever use the ability? it misses 50% of the time anyways, might as well make it something useful in PVP.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator's_Strike should remove a boon instead, it makes much more sense.
Always getting better.
The most useful Sword skill should also remove a boon, other than giving a cheap shadowstep, a stunbreaker and a condition removal.
Flanking Strike’s first strike ALWAYS hit if you are in melee range (the pathing adjust on the enemy if you press the button while close enough), the second one may miss, but you are able to move once the first strike hit, so you have control over the second hit to land. Obviously the first hit is the worthy one, because it removes the boon.
If you want non-stealty damage, there is Warrior over there —→
The main problem with necros as I see it, is that most have lousy builds. I have one that completed the world and many times, i see Guardians, Eles, and the rest die next to my necro in group events. I have a necro with 2 knives maxed for speed and hi power damage and take veterans in 80 zones often all by myself. The build is key and how you use your traits as well. I use scepter and horn for a secondary set. Since the scepter has been fixed, it works even better. I go anywhere without any minions.
So It is possible to have a powerful Necro, and maybe it is not for everyone, either.Definitely, Sorrow, you don’t know what you talk about. I also have a ranger, guardian, engineer, ele. My Necro and Ranger have the best survavibility.
From one that has “Been there, Done that.” with that necro, I can assure you that I know what I talk about.
I obviously wasn’t talking about PvE as Kardiamond pointed out.
It is quite hard to complain about Necros in PvE to be honest, at least when talking about survivability.
Do you still believe that Flanking Strike is that bad that you want to make it a Whirl?
A WHIRL?!
So, you don’t only want to remove the only cheap boon removal thief has, so the only tool he has against bunkers, but you also want to make it into a spammable 3/4s channel time, evade and 1200+ damage whirl.
Please, ask ArenaNet to join their balancing team.
I missed that….
I am not a religious man.Generally i believe in Darwin’s Theory of Evolution,but from the posts in this forum i am kind of starting to doubt if the Human is the best result of several billion ears of evolution…..
Of course, who doesn’t agree with you should be a monkey for sure.
Keep arguing on forums, please. I bet you’ll make a bunch of friends.
I’m talking about my personal experience.
Once professions were announced, I’ve decided to play as a Necromancer because I liked the concept behing the profession and the profession mechanic itself.
Then, after the game came out, I’ve created my Necro an keep playing it for a considerable amount of time, in both PvE and in PvP.
At that time, I’ve never tried another profession neither looked at the forum.
When I’ve played PvP, I always felt that it was really challenging and sometimes it fell also into being frustrating because of how hard it was. Well, what matters? Keep practice and get better, in fact it is considered a competitive mode for a reason. I came from the Guild Wars PvP environment, where fights were less frenetic and more reflective compared to Guild Wars 2 PvP, so I blamed that difference as being the reason I felt that hard to getting better in Guild Wars 2.
Then I jumped on the forum, seeing all the complains on Necro being too weak.
So I said myself, is Necro that weak? I’ve never considered that as an option. So I created a dummy Thief and tried it out, because it was the second profession on my scale of preference.
Believe or not, I felt that PvP was a completely different mode. I kept killing people with ease, without worrying about timing dodges and interrupts, just using my skill as I felt and then vanish in stealth when things were going wrong. Seeing those kind of damage numbers I’ve never seen on my Necro was quite surprising.
I had two different conclusions: either Thief was too strong or Necro was too weak. Looking at the forum about the complains about Thieves, I’ve came to the conclusion that Thieves were just overpowered and Necros were fine.
Than I tried Warrior. Well, the result was quite the same as a Thief.
I’ve then tried the Guardian, the Mesmer and the Ranger intensively. All those professions performed way better than my Necro did despite the fact that I was completely inexperienced into playing those professions.
Did it mean that 5 professions out of 8 are overpowered? I don’t think so.
Did it mean that I was completely negated to play Necro? Well, quite hard to believe considering that I performed better on 5 other different professions.
The only possible conclusion was that Necros are weak. Than I’ve tried to figure out the reason behind that, pointing out what Necro is lacking compared to other professions and I’ve listed it in the first page of this topic plus a considerable amount of topics in this forum.
You’re free to believe that Necros are fine, but I don’t think you would think so if you tried other professions after you have sticked on Necro for a considerable amount of time.
(edited by Moderator)
In the wiki people are saying that it isn’t bugged anymore and someone said that it pull one condition each 3 seconds. I have to test it out in the mists to make sure.
Null Field is actually a better version than Well of Power, which is on a 60s recharge and converts just one condition per pulse.
Null field strips conditions, it doesn’t convert them. It’s a great skill, don’t get me wrong. It’s just relatively short and part of a whole build.
The fact that none use Phantasmal Disenchanter doesn’t mean that it is quite good when comparing it to skills of another profession. You have to take into account the environment.
I am. It’s a terrible skill. If you have not used it, you should try it in a dungeon or pvp environment and see what I mean. You basically have no idea if it will actually help the person who needs help. Also, those bounce skills need a GM trait to really come into their own.
I didn’t understand why you say that other professions have to sacrifice other aspects in order to do good conditions removal why Necros don’t. I mean, I don’t think that Elementalists have to sacrifice something in order to have their huge conditions removal capability, Mesmers also.
Elementalists give up a lot of damage potential to be able to do consistent condition removal for allies. Their popular PvP builds are much more about boon stacking.
Mesmers, I am not sure what besides Null Field you’d expect to see a Mesmer routinely take that’d do really well in this. Null field is great because it does what it does AND is a combo field.
I just want to make it crystal-clear what I am saying: Necros can build a decent amount of condition mitigation into their builds with relatively little cost. There are better single skills out there in the GW2 universe, but they often have only vague synergy with a whole build.
Well, probably that’s why Necromancers are only playing conditions than.
Yeah, I have to agree that the average Sc/D+Staff combo has a good conditions control, but sadly it is the only good thing among bad ones and doesn’t raise the Necros on a better spot.
It feels frustrating when you spec into power build and you deal mediocre damage while having very bad defenses than pick up any other profession and perform way better without putting any efforts into to get better as I did with my Necromancer.
Uh…I think you forgot about Plague Signet, which passively AoE cleanses conditions from your teammates, at which point you can either eat them for a boost to healing, send them back to an enemy three different ways, or convert them into boons.
Has it been fixed yet from merely copying conditions?
Nope, it hasn’t been fixed. Right now I feel that skill more likely of a malus rather than an utility.
Evade and stab your foe in the back twice. First strike removes 1 boon.
Damage: 252
Second strike damage: 504
Range: 130“1 boon.”
It chooses 1 random boon and removes it.
That’s your assuption. Just test it out. Like all the boon removals, it removes the last boon applied.
It was like that also in Guild Wars with Enchantments and Hexes.
Flanking Strike strips a random boon, you could strip 1 stack of might…
Your the one who suggested flanking strike, I find the attack to be useless compared to cloak and dagger.
As far I know, Flanking Strike removes the last boon applied and also, when talking about Might, it removes the whole stack, not only one stack.
Both the attacks, Flanking Strike and Cloak and Dagger, are on your bar for a reason. You are supposed to use them both to play effectively and versatile.
> Mesmers, on the other hand, have way better conditions/boon manipulation.
Just take a look at skills like Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery.I’m new to necro but I’ve got a fair sum of experience with the other classes mentioned so far. So let me just address this..
Null field is fantastic, but has an unfun cooldown and in PvP no one will play in it (a subtle downside of most glamour fields: they are huge and obvious). No one takes Phantasmal Disenchanter because it is terrible compared to other phantasms (even post-patch). Arcane Thievery is not bad, but is more about boon theft than condition removal (Dear Auramentalists, <3 you).
…
Necros get a lot of ways to manipulate conditions that do not preclude them doing other things, whereas a many other classes do condition removal as a “sacrifice” for “support.” In PvE, you can run a condition heavy dungeon and do a good job of condition removal while still doing great doing damage and adding control.
Null Field is actually a better version than Well of Power, which is on a 60s recharge and converts just one condition per pulse. This, obviously, counting only its support side.
The fact that none use Phantasmal Disenchanter doesn’t mean that it is quite good when comparing it to skills of another profession. You have to take into account the environment.
For instance, Thieves say that Unload is weak when Necromancers have a skill like Ghastly Claws or Life Siphon which deal way less damage on a longer time window and with also a recharge. That’s because Thieves have a bunch of other skills which deals an huge amount of damage while Necromancers have only those skills.
I didn’t understand why you say that other professions have to sacrifice other aspects in order to do good conditions removal why Necros don’t. I mean, I don’t think that Elementalists have to sacrifice something in order to have their huge conditions removal capability, Mesmers also.
Flanking..Strike.. to get rid of his boons.. .. LOL….
…
LOL….
…
No…
You would barely hurt him, and you would run out of initiative, his attunements to reapply all those buffs activate every 10 seconds, it takes 10 seconds to get 6 initative back, he would have all 4 buffs up again by the time ONE of your flanking strikes is back up, and WHILE hes doing all that hes killing you.
You need to fight good ele.
Flanking Strike also does horrible damage, so each one takes about 10% of his health, and grats, he has no boons, Oh he just used his attunements to get them all back and you have 0 initiative now, he reset the fight with full and your out of luck, oh yeah your almost dead too.
Mug+CnD+Backstab = Kill him before he has protection up/all those boons up = the best way.
Or, probably, those eles need to fight a good thief.
Reading your post, I see that you want to spam your Flanking Strike till your enemy is dead but, usually, that’s not what you are supposed to do to kill a good player.
Flanking Strike is on 4 initiative, all you have to do is to time Flanking Strike to strip crucial boons like Protection, Fury, Might when high stacked and Vigor (in the preference order as they are listed).
Stripping Protections boost your damage by 50%, stripping Vigor halves the Ele’s capability of dodging and stripping Might and Fury almost kill the damage output of enemy Ele.
In most cases, keeping Protection and Fury down while occasionally stripping high might stacks is more than enough to heavily weaken the Ele.
If you also succed to daze your enemy when he’s on low health, than you’ve won.
Of course you can bash the ele with your backstab combo, but if you’ll fail it’s not the Ele who is too strong (bunkers are made just to counter those meta thieves), it’s just you who refuse to adapt to a meta shift.
You’re talking only about stacking your own conditions, with a touch of removing your own conditions, NOT conditions as a whole. Offensively, a Necro can AoE turn boons into conditions, and a Necro can take conditions on a single target — perhaps stacked by Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineers, or Elementalists — and spread them to multiple targets. Defensively, a Necro can not only AoE cleanse conditions, but actually go one better and turn them into boons.
Your view of conditions is rather narrow. I’ll admit that in my play experience, I have not done much of this condition/boon manipulation and transfer, but if you’re going to try to paint the picture that Necros suck at conditions, you’ve got to address conditions as a whole.
Reading your post, I can only agree that epidemic is a great skill and it is actually the only skill because Necro are worth taking into a team.
Necros can’t actually AoE clean conditions, or they can’t clean conditions better than other professions.
The AoE condition removals of Necros are Putrid Mark and Well of Power (excluding the Lich skill).
Well of Power is quite worthless because of the high recharge and just one condition cleaned per pulse x5 pulses, so the only good condition cleaning skill is Putrid Mark but, when comparing that skill to Cleansing Wave, Cleansing Water and Wave of elementalist, you see that overall Necro isn’t that much over the other professions when talking about AoE conditions cleaning.
Mesmers, on the other hand, have way better conditions/boon manipulation.
Just take a look at skills like Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery.
It’d be helpful if you specified what is key to a roamer, in your opinion? Speed, mobility, burst? (Obviously, if it’s speed, the Necro can be near perma-swifted, so I guess you’re not talking speed. Still, without some specifics, your statement is content-free.)
Swiftness is nothing when you have almost no mobility skills like Ride the Lightning, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Rush etc.
Those skills make a roamer a real roamer coupled with, of course, the ability to quicky burst down targets.
Necros haven’t them both.
They are much much faster then you are, and they don’t need to waste there utilitys on signets.
A good ele will KNOW your going to use CnD, put up shocking aura as you use it and stun you, and then knock you back as your stealthed.
The best way to kill a good Ele: …… Burst Mug+CnD+Backstab combo! If they get more then 3 boons up then run away, you’ve lost.
Shocking Aura is on a 25s cooldown.
CnD needs 5.32s to take all the initiative used back when traited in Shadow Arts, 7.98s when untraited.
In both cases, you are capable of landing 2 CnD at least each Shocking Aura. This assuming obviously that you use CnD right after the initiative the last CnD took has regenerated and than the Ele will cast Shocking Aura right after the cooldown is over, pretty fringe case of course.
So, when running S/D you are capable of going into stealth (so CC enemy ele) one time each 8s at maximum, while have still room to cast Flanking Strike to strip ele’s protection, regeneration, vigor and all the kitten he has up.
You are also capable of spamming enough bleed stack to outperform the ele’s condition removals when running P/D, but anyway S/D will be way more effective.
Of course, if you try to Mug+CnD+Backstab hoping to burst effectively down everything that moves, you are going to fail hard.
That combo isn’t the answer to everything.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Put down your nooby D/D set and bring S/D . Than laugh on D/D elementalists corpses.
You’re so good!!! Tell us more!
You don’t need to be a genius to realize that to kill a D/D elementalist you need boon removals and CC and that S/D is the only set who has them both.
you’re the only troll, trying to knock down every valid strategy listed by any player here.
Any class can min/max to do something better than us. But you still fail to see that they become a one-trick-pony.
We have a lot of tools that more than make up for our jack of all trades build design.
I’m not the troll here because of the simple reason that I’m not flaming and I’m just expressing my opinion without bashing anyone who disagrees with me, but I rather try to expose my argumentations in order to let people understand why I think they are wrong.
You, on the other hand, as the other guy who came out with the classic l2p argument, are the perfect example of forum trolls.
Other professions aren’t one-trick-pony. Necromancers fail also at balanced spec.
Everything you can build as a Necromancers, some other profession do it better. Everything.
Conditions -> Thieves do it better (while retaining better survivability and condition cleansing through stealth). Many other professions like Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineer and Elementalist (practically everything except Guardians) are capable of stacking bleeding better.
Power build -> almost every profession, we are in the lowest tier of raw damage based builds
Bunker -> Guardian, Engineer and Elementalist do it better. Thieves can have also better survivability at the cost of not be capable of contesting a node in tPvP.
Roamer -> Just lol. Everything is a better roamer than a Necro, probably also a chicken.
This is most likely the new “holy trinity” in Guild Wars 2. Any middle way among those spec is a complete suicide in this metagame.
and you still proceed to list every source of one single condition, and fail to realize if you rely on using all of them, that’s all you will have.
if you’re so set on complaining about every single imaginable thing about the necro, why even come to the forums? what, to learn? obviously not, because so far you’ve claimed to know exactly how pointless everything on the class is.
So you log in to troll.
please leave, there are players who want to learn, and they can.
Probably I’m not starting from the assumption that the game, which is out from 3 months, is perfectly balanced and, probably Necros, who were too strong in the beta, were overnerfed.
I’ve proved you that any Warrior is capable to do what a Necromancer do better. They can also combine what they are better into while being better also into that.
Globally, if a>b and c>d, a+c>b+d always.
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Do any of the thief traits function according to their description? Here is a list of traits I have found do not work at all. I am unsure how many are not completely broken and are are simply functioning improperly.
Potent poison – does not increase poison duration at all
Improvisation – does not reset any skill
Master of deception – does not decrease stealth recharge
Meld with shadows – does not increase stealth by 1 second
The last trait I’m going to list works but is worthless.
Hard to catch – sure you warp away but you stay stunned and they can just run or jump right back on to you, because you stay stunned
Meld with Shadows works, tested.
Improvisation also works as far I know.
Master of Deception works also.
Dunno about Potent Poison, I think it works, but anyway I’m not going to miss him if it don’t work.
Hard to Catch works as intended, it is not listed that it is a stunbreaker. Every other “trigger on stun” skills of other professions keep you stunned anyway.
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im not saying everything is fine and dandy, but that hater just wants to see necros fail. that’s just not the case.
Or, probably, you are just trolling everyone saying that Necros are fine while obviously aren’t.
You said QP ranks, there are only few Necros on a majority of Guardians, Thieves, Mesmers and Elementalists. You should have took a look at it. Necro are underepresented in tPvP.
The point is that there is absolutely no point to play a Necro when everything you want to spec into there is some other profession which can do it way better.
But, of course, you are a troll, so there is pretty much no point into arguing with you. It is pretty obvious seeing the way you entered in the argument.
its fun to use an elite then get feared out of it.
It’s like the same situation Necro are in thanks to Moa Morph. All the Elites of Necro are cancelled by that skill. At least Dagger Storm deal some serious damage.
Welcome to Guild Wars 2.
Ghostly Mask on Asuras is amazing. Just try it out.
Thief is probably the squishiest class in the game and probably one of the most difficult to play. Far from OP.
I laughed at this.
Quickness heartseeker spammers say hello!
Backstab instagibbers say hello!
Stealth condispammers say hello!
^ well i just started a necro myself and i think it’s a very well designed class with tons of synergy between abilities, and with your team. also, minion mancers are beastly from what ive encountered on my other profs. perhaps you need to l2p.
Then he joined PvP and deleted the Necromancer.
I like how people deny how easy this class is to play. It takes no skill to press blind well or stun break if you’re getting mauled by melee AND THEN punish them back.
LOL?
I miss the punish them back part. You mean punishing them back with 300 damage per hit with your mighty Axe? Or spamming autoattack with dagger?
Oh, yep, I remember you. You are the Warrior guy. Funny that someone who said that GS is fine come here to say that Necros are easy.
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Put down your nooby D/D set and bring S/D . Than laugh on D/D elementalists corpses.
obviously you’re a player in the minority of necromancers that suck, otherwise you wouldn’t be arguing that the class sucks. all of those conditions you’re trying to discredit are actually great tools to use when you’re fighting someone. if you’re ignoring them, then you’re not using about 1/3 of the utilities/skills in your bar.
immobilize does have defensive capability. if you use it on someone, break their line of sight (as in, get behind them), they can’t cast the majority of their utilities or skills on you. not to mention the extra second it takes for them to turn around and look at you.
2s daze is great. it’s not crap at all. you talk about it like it’s not enough.
if you stack chills, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill its a 66% snare and 66% cooldown debuff. if you’re so set on arguing that other classes can just dance around you, chain their uber skills like there’s no tomorrow, maybe you should try chills sometime, and watch them hit a slog.
we have two main fears: staff5 which is an AoE (always useful for gaining footing in a 1v3) and Ds3. Ds3 is nearly instant cast. (hit F1 and 3, it registers pretty quick) and provides you a fear that works as an interrupt, even if you’re on the ground.
I would like to point out a valid part of your argument, about mesmers having a bountiful amount of CC as well as the clones and invuln, and i have found them really difficult to kill even when i have my eye on them. i pray that they get nerfed again someday. but still, this does not make the necro a crap class. it only states the mesmer as an exceptionally strong class.
Without considering the uncalled insinuation about my skill, you have listed all the Necromancers defensive capability which still are way subpar compared to other professions.
Want some raw comparisons?
Take, for instance, the Warrior, which is more similiar to Necromancer due to the high health pool.
An hammer warrior can easily outperform all the CC capability of Necromancer with just weapon skills, all this without considering the tons of CC skills Warriors have as utilities (lol Fear Me, Kick, Stomp, Bull’s Charge). So, if in your opinion CCs can be considered as defensive features, Warriors are still better than Necromancers.
Warriors are in a better position also when talking about Immobilization.
Just to say few:
Throw Bolas, Pin Down, all cripples + Leg Specialist.
So, as you can see, about CCs and Immobilizations, warriors are still above Necromancers, while having better armor, better damage reduction skills, invulnerability, better mobility etc.
As I said many times, snares isn’t a great deal because of the huge amount of leaps, huge amount of condition removals and short duration of chills. Also, I have noticed that usually Chill doesn’t trigger the increased cooldown time, just try from yourself.
So yes, Necromancers are weak when comparing to other professions.
wow! 200 toughness! and a shield! what an OP advantage warriors have over us, ranged and melee, controller, condition toting, spectral walking, life leeching, blood boiling reapers of souls with many many many lifebars! -_-
oh god, not to mention we are CLOTH WEARERS. we’re like, on the other end of the armor spectrum, right? i’m surprised there isn’t more of a gap. (as i trait in Dark armor for the extra 400 toughness to piss on the nearest warrior with his disk of metal)
So.
9% extra damage reduction on 900 bonus toughness and 18% with no bonus toughness are worse than a trait which gives you 400 toughness while channeling and prevents you to take Greater Marks… lol
About the list of Necromancers “advantages” just read above.
LOL @ Life Leeching
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Sheobix, you made an huge post storm to answer them all, so I’ll answer to some salient point I’ve read in your 8 consecutive posts.
1. Well of Darkness isn’t a 5s invulnerability. It pulses every second making just one hit per second to miss. Any profession can deal much more than one hit per second and, also, they can move out of the well, if they aren’t completely stupid, taking their ranged weapon set (yes, everyone runs with at least one ranged weapon set) and striking you till you’re dead.
2. You can consider single target CC as a real defensive mechanic, especially when those CC are weapon skills. With a CC you are able to stop just one guy to attack you for about one second, 2 second if you’re bringing a Warhorn and probably more than one guy, which isn’t mitigating damage considering the amount of time it takes effect and the recharge time. You can also build with all the CC you have available and still not mitigating enough damage. Protection mitigates damage, vigor mitigates damage, clones and visual confusion mitigates damage, stealth mitigates damage (fell into visual confusion actually), blocks and invulnerability mitigates damage not CC, not snares and, of course, not Death Shroud.
3. Thieves can build as way better tanks (not actually tanks to be honest) when speccing into Shadow Arts and Arcrobatics and perform way better than a Necro, holding 3+ people at time. The point is that everyone runs as glass cannon, but there are few video on youtube of people running conditions and cutting people like butter while popping in and out of stealth, dodging like a rabbit and taking no damage at all, while being healed up at roughly full health and cleaned from all conditions each time they go into stealth.
Necromancers are a uneffective tanking machine, taking all the damage that comes to them, without having a real way to reduce that damage passively, meaning that before or after, the damage you are taking will outperform your heals. And this talking about tanky builds, what about when a Necro plays glass cannon compared to other professions? Slaughtered in a couple of seconds.
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I’m not calling him noob because he plays a guardian, i call him noob because i saw HOW he plays guardian…and it’s different. I always said that BS HS etc were not op, but that i didn’t care if they were going to nerf them… I usually tried to give some advice to avoid those burst combos, as many did and aready do…my idea as ever been the same, they’re not so op but nerf what you want, maybe it will stop ppl to QQ bout thieves for everything we do…as you saw in my screen…
Bad reputation is hard to get it off.
Anyway we fall again in the argument of what is OP and what is broken.
OP = overperforming, too strong, over the average. Nerfs fix this problem.
Broken = with no counter, gamebreaking. Hotfix fix this problem.
Thief was (and still is in some aspects) OP, not broken, that means people know the counters, but Thieves still need a kind of special attention that shouldn’t be given to in order to counter them.
If you read my posts you’ll see i’m the first saying that BS PW HS are way stupid, also reported some using (As devs said) hacks to permastealth in sPvP while attacking, there’s also a guy who posted a video about it in tPvP.
But…if you say that kitten always play thieves" you are a kid, and you’re going to be flamed for sure. I didn’t make a screen but after some time i had an idea, i asked my tPvP team to bring him with guardian in tourny for a run…maybe i was pissed, but i think they’re going to flame him much much more, so maybe he can realize how bad he is. Anyway they’re going tomorrow afternoon…we will see if someone not kitten plays better than a kitten S/D thief…
Obviously if he plays good for my 35+ team, they’re going to tell me, and i’ll change my mind, but i saw him playing, and that’s why i answered him like that..
I remember you as a not-so-favorable to nerfs, so I don’t know if it is your behavior code, to defend thieves from nerf till dead, or you just fall into the category I’ve mentioned before but now, for the sake of argument, you’ve suddently changed your mind.
Anyway, it looks pretty weird that you claim to be stupid that someone consider someone bad just because he plays thief and than you consider him noob because he plays guardian and called you noob.
It’s like saying: “Stop saying profanities, you kitten!”
But I believe it’s you who writes off DS entirely as not a defense. I’m not a PvP’er, so perhaps in PvP DS is not useful. But in PvE, it literally is like a channeled invulnerability bubble that lasts for an amount of time based on your stats and the damage it negates. That’s a defense. And it’s fairly active, since you can move and perform some other abilities while still channeling it. Unlike other bubbles, its duration can be extended by the Necro, depending on tactical choices and on equipment and traits.
You also seem to regard Necro armor/toughness/vitality as “not a defense”, while also emphasizing that Warriors have bonuses to their armor/toughness that are defenses. Yes, Necros don’t have invulnerabilities outside of DS and don’t have a plethora of teleports. They do have snares, interrupts, invulnerability via DS, mitigation via (relatively) high armor and vitality, etc.
Perhaps the game is unbalanced such that snares don’t accomplish much, either because of intercept-type moves or ranged weapons/skills. That’s an issue, and perhaps a serious one in PvP. But it doesn’t mean that Necros have no defenses.
As I said, I’m not talking about PvE.
I’m talking about any competitive environment, in which class unbalances feel heavy. Necros are absolutely subpar to any other profession in PvP and that’s the whole my point. I don’t think Necros are weak in PvE.
So… What’s the point of this thread?
Usually i’m not rude, but if you start insulting me for no reason…well, you’re going to be flamed…
The point is to show how is playing a thief in pvp…even if you don’t play those oneshot whine builds (And they are crap btw) there are still nabs complaining, 80% people just don’t know kitten bout thieves and all they can say it’s to play a proper class? Said by a guardian? It’s both hilarious and sad… I personally think that S/D thief it’s just a bit more hard to play good than, let’s say, a GS – M/S guardian smashing buttons for win…and people still complain, i really want to see those so pro guys playing S/D in tPvP and see if it’s so easy…really.
I see no insults in my previous post.
I was just asking what is the point of posting a screenshot of two guys flaming each other in a public forum.
Anyway, if Thieves have this bad reputation is just thanks to flawed profession mechanic and to people who exploit this and then come here into the forum saying that nerfs are uncalled for, thief is weak, warrior has better mobility etc.
I think you’ve lost track of the issue. Someone (perhaps you?) said that Necros have no defense. Someone replied that they can have more toughness, vitality, and attack than many (not all) Warriors, plus various dazes, etc, so most certainly have defenses.
Perhaps Warriors get additional in-built bonuses that put them above his example Necro, but the point remains that in terms of mitigation Necros can be in the same ballpark as many Warriors. The statement that Necros don’t have any defense isn’t supportable.
Now perhaps Necros need some additional defensive mechanics overall. But the whole point of this thread is that absolute statements like “Necros have no X”, “Necros are broken/useless”, “Necro traits suck” are emotional arguments with no real basis. Are Necros OP dominators of every aspect of the game? No. Are they the worst profession at any aspect of the game? No. Do Necros have bugs, like other non-Warrior/Guardian professions do? Yep. Is at least one characteristically-Necro aspect of the profession frustratingly buggy? Yep, minions.
When people make reasoned and well-informed criticisms and suggestion, it’s good for the class and helpful to players and developers alike. Absolute statements simply aren’t true, and the deeper you dig the less true thay are.
Actually, in my original post I said that Necro lack of real defensive capability and I’ve motivated why I think so. People have probably only read the point title and than thought “wtf taht guy is crzy, necros hav no defenses?”, while I’ve clearly stated that with lack of defensive capability I mean that Necros have only a bunch of HP and not enough way to defend them.
So… What’s the point of this thread?