Guild Wars 2

Wolfield.9812:

Dont spam the skill.

Glad i could help you, please enjoy the rest of your day.

That’s not the point.
The point is that I can spam the skill and get good results, so there is no point into using it properly.
The game should encourage players to get better and get skilled to win, not spamming. Am I right?

I liked the old Flanking Strike, I played that set in the age where D/D backstab and heartseeker spammers were rampant and have a lot of fun with it.

The single boon removal, the dodge and the unforgiving pathing made that skill a real challange giving great results if user properly.
I needed to know where is the right position to cast it to make the skill land, I needed to know when to use it to remove the right boon because I wasn’t able to afford to spam it to remove all the boons.

I understand that some people who are used to leap skills like HS may get frustrated on Flanking Strike and then refused to use it, in fact the path adjusting is the only buff I can understand.

But they completely messed it. Right now, Flanking Strike is the new era of succesful spammers. 2-2-2-2 has become 3-3-3-3. You can easily steal ALL boons from any boon-reliant profession with no efforts at all while dealing sweet constant damage, evading and have the initiative cost split in 2 installments.
I mean, why? It’s like they want the Thief to be the hole where all the spammers, FotM abusers and baddies should be confined to.

Oblivion.8307:

sorrow.2364:

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Rage – Power Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Power – Healing/Vit Line (boon related but w/e)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Radiant_Power – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Virtuous – Boon Duration line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Target_the_Maimed – Crit Line
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Energy_Conversion_Matrix Vit/Boon Duration line

Stop acting like you’re the victim, each class has their own boon/condition % damage increase except mesmer/ranger.

Have you read what you linked?
What do you exactly want to prove here? Because after I read the description of the traits you have linked to me, I think you want to support my argument.

Oblivion.8307:

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

Look at the traitline
Jeez! It is on the Condition Damage traitline!

Look at the effect
My god! You need 5 different conditions on your target to have the same damage bonus the Thief has with any condition!

Bas.7406:

Where are you getting your numbers from? I hit almost 2k on a full berzerker axe auto, my axe 2 channel properly specced hits 9k easily on bosses, and I have seen numbers as high as 17k with proper setup.

Dagger Chain can hit upwards of 13k if you are properly specced and geared. Your numbers are all over the map you toss numbers about Warriors with gear numbers, and then throw out Necro numbers from ungeared?

Dagger chain plus wells will wipe out any single person who doesn’t get out if it. I have seen 20-27k get dropped off a player in the middle of a double well/dagger 1 chain. Can we do the 30k in one single skill no, but I wouldn’t want the amount of fragility and lack of control the warrior has during that chain either..

1. I hit almost on 2k -> About 1.5k.
2. My Axe 2 hits 9k easily -> Quite a big difference from 8k. The only time I’ve seen more than 9k (17k) from Ghastly Claws is on a Nemesis video of a glass cannon build with 9 stacks of might, food and potion buffs and 15 stacks of vulnerability on the enemy and a full bloodlust. If you have any other video proof backing up what you’re saying I’d like to see it.
Look what a warrior is capable to do damage-wise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAK-QYShjro
Keep in mind that Hundred Blades channeling is just half a second longer.
Why aren’t there all Necromancer in that speed-kill build? Do you think that if they brought Necromancers instead of warriors they would have made a better time?
3. Necro has way less damage boosting traits. Despite the fact that the base damage is similiar, they have less way to boost them via traits.

The Kay.6539:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me go crazy.
So far in fractals up to my level, I never got kicked because I am a necromancer.

Casual players don’t kick people because they are X or Y class, come on, be realistic here. Also, don’t you have friends? I run stuff with my friends often too, never had issues either with me being a necro, and actually, my dungeon group has TWO necros.

People don’t mind finishing the instance in 25min instead of 17min. You are being completely unrealistic when you say: “NOBODY WILL EVER TAKE A NECRO OVER X or Y”, that implies that no necromancer, ever will do any kind of group stuff.

And you can be hybrid and get some defense, of course, you won’t do as much damage, and might be slightly more squishy than specialized builds, yeah, but it’s fun. I can stack 25 stacks of vulnerability in less than 8 seconds by myself, and keep it 100% uptime above 12-14 stacks, how is that not helping the team? Necros can perma poison too, and keep almost 100% uptime on weakness as well. We are natural debuffers, we are not supposed to buff the team.

You completely misleaded my statement.
Nobody talked about kicks and so on.
What I tried to say is that if you have two lv80 characters, a Necro and a Warrior, your mates will surely ask you to bring the Warrior over the Necromancer and it is true.
This doesn’t mean that Necromancers are kicked as soon as the party realize which profession you’re running, that means that they are subpar compared to other professions, that’s all.

Pazu.8320:

Says who? Have you played one? A power/well build can keep on par with a zerker warrior’s dps. As an example, I have finished off the gate controller in CoF p1 faster then some decent warriors. We don’t have a 100b equivalent, so we can’t brag about a 30k hit from a single skill, except maybe the auto-attack in Lich Form, but that’s an elite skill. Our damaging wells can hit around 20k over their duration while stacking vulnerability and corrupting boons, which is on top of the other attacks we do while the well is active.

You also might assume that most of the vulnerability stacks and weakness debuffs come from the warriors or thieves when a good necro can continually apply these debuffs that improve group dps.

I’ve really had it with people complaining about necro because it’s an incredibly powerful and versatile class.

I’d like to meet the people who said that Necro is an incredibly powerful and versatile class and listen to their reasoning.

Anyway, the math behind the dps calculation of the Necro/Warrior is just wrong.

Warriors can deal 5k damage only with a Greatsword swing while stacking vulnerability or 4k per axe hit, which is actually faster, but without vulnerability.

Assuming that you’re running Dagger MH, you are doing less damage without stacking vulnerability, about 1k for each of the first hits, 1.5k the 3rd and 3k on the 4th, which is 6.5k. So a full dagger chain is one hit and an half of an axe warrior.
If you are using Axe MH, your damage is even lower. You hardly hit 1.5k with a full autoattack and never deal more than 8k damage with Ghastly Claws.
Well of Suffering is just a little unreliable (because it is a PBAoE) damage boost on a 45s cooldown.

Do you really think they are on par damage-wise? Seriously, get real.

The Kay.6539:

Hello guys, lately I’ve been seeing a lot of posts concearning the state of the class and people crying for nerfs or buffs all over the place. After reading many, if not all, of these posts I found myself disagreeing with most of them.

Who am I? I am a casual player, I play for 3 hours a day top. I don’t do tournaments PvP, only hot joins. I love PvE, my fractal level is currently 26. And I am about to complete my map 100% for the first time! (curses wvw) So I guess I can consider myself an ordinary player, probably the most common kind of player in this game.

I have 4 level 80 characters with full exotics, but only 3 pink pieces of jewerly spread across them. The classes are: Warrior (cookie cutter zerker), Elementalist (d/d jack of all trades), Engineer (boring grenade spammer) and my necro, which is by far the most powerful class I have.

I made this post to clarify to the major part of the player base that necros are NOT, BY ANY MEANS as kitten as people cry in these forums, actually, they are not weak at all. If you are thinking about rolling a necro, ignore those whiners, they want their class to be turned into the fotm so they can win serious tournaments and such.

What I see here is people usually complaining about necro’s skills from one of two points of view: “Power/crit necro” or “Conditionmancer”

Do you really need to pick between these two? I look at the necromancer skill set and I am amazed how A.net made this class. I think they -never- made necromancers to be pure condition, neither to be a burst class. All our weapons benefit from power as much as they benefit from condition, so why kitten yourself by picking one of them and then coming on the forums to say skill X should change because it doesn’t benefit X build? A classic example is the scepter 3, or DS on pure condition builds.

I’m not saying the class is perfect, there are tweaks to be made here and there, but reading these forums for a couple weeks it sounded like necro as almost unplayable. So before most of you guys who complains about A.Net post, you should first consider that -most- necro players are actually HAPPY with the class while a few dozen guys flame these forums. The happy ones rarely make posts about it, so there it is.

Good job Arena.net, thanks for this amazingly fun and challenging class to play!

Actually, almost everyone I met agree that Necromancer is one of the most useless profession in the game, both in PvE and in PvP.

In PvE, because he lacks the damage and the support any team need to run a dungeon.
Nobody is going to take a Necromancer over, let’s say, a Warrior, a Guardian, a Mesmer or an Elementalist.

In PvP, they are worth bringing in a team only for 2 skills: Epidemic and Signet of Undeath. Remove those skills from your bar and nobody wants you.

Bhawb.7408:

A single Epidemic can completely wipe a team. It requires coordination, however, and frankly very few teams show the coordination to actually throw out good Epidemic’s consistently; and most of those teams are EU and don’t run condi cleave comps.

It is a whole profession enclosed into only one skill.
I don’t care how strong Epidemic is if the surroundings are awful and they pretty much are.

Rym.1469:

In fact, guardians, right after warriors are probably easiest match for necromancer. They’re also christmas gift for Conditionmancers. Try taking down phantasm mesmer or D/P thief, current meta nightmares of necros. Back to the topic: If you really think necromancers are that useless, you’ve never met experienced one. Yes, we do have limited mobility but, you know… Spectral Walk is soo underrated, while it actually saves your kitten same for Flesh Wurm(this one, however, needs totally clear paths or exploit experience). Another thing : I don’t know If I should laugh or cry at these “epidemic is worthless” posts. It literally allows you to kite up to 5 melee targets via spreading cripple, chill, immobilize. One good condi Terrormancer can wipe out 5-player group in tpvp only If he knows how to position himself. My experience. I agree that Life Blast isn’t the best skill atm, and Dark Path could have targeted shadowstep instead of teleport, bht we’re not really that bad as you may guess. At least terror is nice in current meta, you have a chance against all classes If you play with mind and focused, not moving and acting by faceroll and random double dodges. My suggestion : just play necro,get use to it, accept disadvantages, it’s still viable, you can also ask somemore experienced players for tips. Otherwise, roll /15 chars and end up playing Asura Mesmer, just because other proffessions are so “weak”. Here you have a reason for lack of (good) Necromancers and total flood of mesmers. People just act like: "Oh, current meta has no place for necros, lets get and engineer! After lost game: “Erm… That necro downed us in one epidemic.. Nerf?” ^^

May I ask you which Necro downed someone with one epidemic?

I agree that Epidemic is not bad, but it isn’t also that good.
People reroll Asura Mesmer not because Necromancer is strong.

Seriously guys, you need to chill out.
What you are critizing is a content you usually pay for and ArenaNet is giving that for free.

I mean, are we really critizing some bad models overlapping? Seriously?
Why don’t we start rage about spell errors, then?

lupercaleb.6041:

your citation is in the title of the game
and no it’s not named after lore, pvp came first

So, if it isn’t named after the lore… where is my GvG, then?

Login.5102:

Because anyone who plays high lvl tpvp knows that the thief is not op.

Answer this question sorrow so we can get another glimpse of your PvP knowledge.

Would you rather have any kind of thief on your team over a bm ranger, bunker guard, shatter mess, ele, or a HGH engi?

Let me guess, your answer is : Who cares about bm ranger/bunker guard/shatter mess/ele/HGH engi? Those classes can’t go stealth!

But then again I’m asking some body who just said who cares about every defensive boon in the game….

And please respond, keep going. Your kittening hilarious.

Thief is not OP in tPvP for the only reason he can’t cap while in stealth, that’s all. If they were able to, I bet everyone will run Thief and also tPvP would be invaded by thieves.

And, in case you didn’t noticed, the topic isn’t about Thief in tPvP (because, you know, Structured PvP does not mean tPvP only), but it is about Thief devensive mechanics in general.

evilapprentice.6379:

Painfully obvious troll is painfully obvious.

So, dear sir, I’d like to know which profession have access to those features I’ve listed as easy as Thieves can access to Stealth.
Oh, wait. You said I’m a troll: that’s how people avoid uncomfortable arguments these days. Don’t worry then.

Login.5102:

Sorrow I have never face palmed harder in my entire life.

Anyways if you think thieves are op in tpvp, you are simply bad or just play hot joins.

Thieves excel at killing baddies.

Baddies excel at crying on forums.(it all makes sense now huh?)

From a tpvp necro.

PS don’t care about wvwv this is the PvP forum.

I like those random forum “pro” whose only thing they can say is “L2P”, “You are a baddie”, “I play tPvP man! Lemme say this to everyone, this makes me look good!”, “You cry on forum, baddie!” to answer any well composed and complex reasoning.
You contribute to the topic is essential. Keep going.

Azraeel.1238:

Oh please, you are giving this ONE EXTRA DODGE way too much credit. Well guess what? In my thief’s build I don’t have 15 in acrobatics, and I play just fine. If I added 5 points to acrobatics, I will either lose the 100% critical damage from stealth, or the healing while in stealth, and both of them suit me WAY better for my gameplay (0/30/30/10/0). After the 4 seconds revealed I doubt anyone is going with full zerker builds, unless you enjoy running around with 900 toughness and 11k hp… My toughness is 1350 and I have almost 16k HP.

Just for your information, my main is a Necro and I also have an 80 guardian. For the necro the deathshroud is just an awesome defensive mechanic, I can’t count the number of times it saved my behind. As for the Guardian, they have shouts with VERY low cooldowns that give them protection, regeneration, aegis, swiftness, retaliation, and stability. Do not compare things literary, like you did with the silly trait comparison, take the WHOLE picture instead.

1. That isn’t ONE EXTRA DODGE. It is actually one extra dodge per endurance bar + vigor on healing which, combined with Withdraw, means 5 extra dodges (including Withdraw’s dodge).

2. You did not need that 5 points in Acrobatic because you already have 15 points in Shadow Arts. You don’t actually need them both. What I said about acrobatic applies the same at Shadow Arts. Probably you better need 20 points, but it is the same anyway.

3. *critical chance

4. I do run full zerker, like most of thieves do, and we actually succed at it. Are we super-pro or is the Thief design too much forgiving?

5. With short shout cooldown you mean 30 sec. minimum? Stealth is on a way shorter cooldown, btw.

6. Death Shroud is a crap defensive mechanic. What it does is actually giving you a fraction of extra health every 10 seconds at the cost of wiping away any defensive skill, any stunbreaker and any heal, fueled by a constantly degenerating Life Force which you don’t have at the start of the match but you have to hardly build it up, something you won’t do anyway if you’re running on scepter. And guess what… You have no other defensive mechanic while you are building Life Force up. Basically, you are taking hit and CC over and over hoping you HP are enough.
Yeah, Death Shroud is really awesome…

evilapprentice.6379:

In your above list of glass cannon builds, thieves are by far the squishiest, because they can’t, in any way via their traits, utilities, or weapons, gain protection or stability, have 0 Blocks, and no immunity skills. Every single one of the classes you mentioned have access to at minimum one of those abilities (except maybe necro’s, I don’t know them super well off the top of my head, but they do get a second health bar), even in a glass setup, if they so choose.

Who cares about Protection/Stability/Block/Immunity? Those are only capabilities hardly available to any profession and all on a very short duration.
Thieves have easy, easy accesso to Stealth, which is most likely an invulnerability when you want to; no, don’t say you can still be hit while Stealthed because it is a bunch of BS. If you don’t want to get hit while in Stealth you won’t. You just need to have enough brain to get out of range as soon as you Stealth, which is something everyone is capable to do.

evilapprentice.6379:

This is the sentence that tells me you never played a thief. Thieves are mostly glass because They, more than any other class in this game, gain the least by sacrificing Damage for Defensive stats. Even the developers of the game have noticed, and mentioned that they’re looking into boosting thief skills base damage so they can spec more defensively and still remain useful in a fight.

Go roll a 10/30/30/0/0 thief with a soldiers ammy – The stats will look nice on paper. 2850ish total armor, 18kish health, 25-35% crit (depending on your runes and sigils of course), 30-35% crit damage, decently high total power…it’ll look like a solid hybrid spec. Then you’ll go play it, and be sorely disappointed. You’ll lose most fights because your opponents still have access to powerful defensive tools, and all you’re rolling with is high armor. Without the damage to pressure them into playing to survive, you’ve given up all control of the fight, and thieves do not do attrition well.

I never played a thief? Heck, I’d like to know who spent over 200 hours on my thief then :O

What you are trying to say is that Thieves gain less armor at 1600 toughness compared to a Ranger? Wow, this sounds completely strange to me.

You also forgot to mention that developers wanted to raise the base damage, but they also wanted to reduce the overall thief’s burst capability. That means less damage stacking.
Anyway, Soldier Amulet’s damage suck on every profession, not only Thief.

Travlane.5948:

not all die like thieves do. blocks….aegis …. protection and invulnerabilty will alow ANY player with them to get into the heart of an enemy zerg. or at very least to bunker up in a ball and break enemy formation. especially with stability which wawrriors/guardians and many others have.

And what then?
What once you have broken the enemy formation and the invulnerability ends? You die because you have no more.

Have you seen any Thief running in an enemy zerg with Dagger Storm dealing massive AoE damage then vanish/teleport away? No? Because I’ve seen many, probably too often.
On the other hand, I’ve never seen a Warrior/Guardian or whatever you say rushing in an enemy zerg with a block/invulnerability. Because it is a plain, easy, simple suicide.

mursie.3681:

are you trolling? wtf man. You play a GD mesmer. MESMER. you know … the king of wearing full zerker yet having the ability to dish and tank extreme damage via multiple distorts, blink, phase retreat, etc… etc.. I mean… blurred frenzy …. seriously? The thief class in tpvp requires complete carry. Only a really solid team can carry the thief and allow it to shine. I just don’t understand your argument here. I really don’t.

Any gc thief is either on the sidelines firing NERFED trick shots and cb’s in a teamfight…or insta gibbed if he even dares to enter the teamfight aoe f-fest that exists in the current meta. Oh… and what is driving that aoe f-fest… you know, engies, necros and that gd shatter mesmer. You seen him?

You took into the discussion the Mesmer, which is another profession everyone is complaining about since the launch. You can’t justify a flaw with another flaw, this is pointless.

Thieves get instagibbed if they dare to enter into any “AoE fest”? Are we playing the same profession?

evilapprentice.6379:

Just want to sum some things up here, from this post and others like it.

-Thieves dodge too much
-Thieves have too much access to stealth (Most thief haters would prefer 0 access to stealth)
-Thieves have too much maneuverability (porting, etc)
-Thieves do too much damage
-Thieves can escape fights too easily (tied to stealth and maneuverability)
-Thieves can stealth stomp, which is OP (An oldie but goodie)
-Thieves downed state is OP because its usually a guaranteed stomp evasion (keeping the golden oldies coming)
-Thieves heal too much (SA thieves mostly)
-Thieves can cleanse conditions too easily (SA thieves only)
-Thieves can spam their skills

I’m sure there’s some I missed, feel free to add to the list.

Just to clarify for everyone, thieves
-Are in the lowest HP bracket
-Wear medium armor
-Have 0 access to protection/stability
-Have no block/immune skills
-Have poor access to Regen
-Have poor condition removal outside stealth spam with 10 points in SA
-Can’t bunker at all (can’t hold a point when you’re stealthed or dodging in and out of the circle to stay alive)
-Spammable skills (via the initiative system) means no good effects on said skills (No KD/Kb/Blowback, extremely short durations on Immob/stun/daze, No boons tied to skills hitting)

Mind you the thief has had nothing but damage reductions since the game came out. What exactly is it you expect thieves to be, a free kill? Now that there’s an effective spec that doesn’t rely on stealth (and can most times avoid using it completely) to keep a thief competitive in teamfights, that’s the new thing thieves are too good at.

Just get over it.

I expect just a simple, easy thing.
Thieves who runs glass cannon are as squishy as a Necromancer/Ranger/Engineer/Elementalist/Guardian/etc who runs as a glass cannon.
I’d like to see thieves forced to sacrifice damage to get defenses as much as other professions need to counter the stupid meta they created. I’d like that Thieves need to have at least 1400 toughness and vitality as everyone else need to survive.
That’s all I’d like to see.

I don’t want them to be a free-kill. I want them not to be a win-win profession. I want them to be on par with the other professions. Am I asking too much?

Travlane.5948:

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

So Berserker thief has drawbacks?
Let’s see. Pick a Necromancer/Engineer/Ranger or whatever you want excluding Mesmer. Pick the Berserker amulet. Put MAX 20 traitpoints in a defensive traitline (Toughness or Vitality). Now tell me if you feel as protected as a Thief is with 20 points in Shadow Arts or Acrobatics.

About ZvZ, it is about the melee Thief playstyle. Either you run Shortbow or P/P and attack people from range or you kill the lone sheeps. Every profession dies in the AoE of a big zerg, not only Thief.

Azraeel.1238:

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

You know what 15 traitpoints are worth? Nothing.
Why can’t I have the same survivability on my Necromancer by putting 15 traitpoints into Death Magic? The only thing I have is Reanimator, maybe Greater Marks and Protection of the Horde. Kind of a big deal, you say? What about Blood Magic? Full of Life (5s of regen on 90 HP!), Vampiric (40hp healed on hit! OMG!).

What about any other profession?
Let’s say Guardian.
15 points in Valor -> Valorous Defenses (Aegis on 50% HP! WOW!), Courageous Return (Courage recharged on Rally! OMFG!). Adept skills also do nothing relevant.
15 points in Honor -> Vigorous Precision (Vigor on critical hit, kinda good, but enough?), Selfless Daring (100 hp healed on dodge). Adept traits -> nothing worth taking.

I can continue this kitten for every profession in this game. No profession allows you to run full berserker that carelessly at the cost of ONLY 15 traitpoints. This is the whole point.

Last thing to say: dodge requires skill and timing if you have only few dodges available, not if you have loads of them. In that case, you can just guesstimate when to dodge.

Travlane.5948:

in a 1 v 1 scenario stealth is very strong. in a 50 v 50…its 95% less usefull. so much aoe dmg….fears….aoe stuns…..melee dmg….being in stealth in larger groups is “eh” . 1 v 1 it is amazing yes. although everytime im in stealth and going against any class that can attack without a target…“auto attack” i still take dmg almost everytime. dont get me wrong. any class would take stealth over invulnerbility for 3 seconds and everytime at that. but stealth comes at a hefty price to the HP/defense of a thief. if you shadow refuge or blackpowder shot and get knocked down/out or stunned or pulled/pushed or they cast stacks of AOE skills inside refuge/blck powder you are like a trapped rat. it does come at a price. personally im ok with having 10800 hp to start with and low defense. but u ruin stealth u ruin thief. i posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4mbYlRiJw even a lil engineer can outplay good thieves. :P its very doable. again..im not sayin its not strong but i am saying its worthy of what thieves sacrifice to get it.

What you are doing is justifying bad design.

Thieves have Stealth and evades. You can let them have also 5k as base HP pool, but Stealth, as it is, will be always too good. It is the way traits and stealth are designed. It shouldn’t allow you to run full berserker without any drawback, that’s all.

We can argue about the fact that Stealth is useless in ZvZ situations. I won’t consider it bad. It allows you to easily disengage and to hunt down split-up sheeps.

Necro are still in a very sad position:
1. No reliable access to a defensive mechanic excluding DS
2. Awful traits and trait distribution
3. Minions are brain-dead
4. Axe is still unviable
5. Vampiric traitline is still not worth spending traitpoints into
6. Burst, conditions and bunker builds are all underperforming compared to other professions

That’s all, for now. At least, warriors are good in PvE.

Travlane.5948:

Thieves dont have the highest single target dmg in game. although very close. mesmer is without a doubt number 1 right now. especially for burst. this can be proven in a video very easily.

Stealth is arguably the best defense mechanic in the game its also the most debilitating one. Invulnerability is the best IMO and blocking 2nd. many blocks/aegis in the game you can still do damage while in that “mode” …invulnerability is the best even tho it is only 3 seconds on average. in stealth u can still take damage…and usually as much as you give if not more in group settings. stealth is probably the best escape in the game without argue…..although moa skill 5 could be thrown in there although super rare.

Well, I’ve said that the comparison should not stand with the Mesmer, which is another profession affected by this win-win class design. Every other profession, on the other hand, don’t benefit from this. How can be balance in this game, then?

I really don’t mind if Mesmer have the highest burst damage in the game, because if it were true, it wouldn’t makes my point less valid.

Stealth have easy access compared to Invulnerability and Blocking, this is the main difference. While you can have max 3s of invulnerability on an high cooldown (with a notable exception of Mesmers, see the coincidence!), with Stealth you can have 4s on demand with CnD, combo finishing in smoke field or with an utility.
Yes, Stealth doesn’t make you vulnerable, but it almost do it, since hitting an invisible target is only a matter of luck and guess. An half-brained Thief can easily make it invlunerability-like by avoiding enemies’ hit, which isn’t that hard.

Zacchary.6183:

You do realize that our plentiful dodges have been a QQ topic and will be the next thing to get nerfed after stealth.

The point is simple and easy.
Dodge and Stealth are two of the most effective defensive mechanic in GW2, mainly because you don’t need to stack toughness to be enough defensive, but you only need to spend some points in a specific traitline.

Now, Thieves have:
1. The highest single target damage among any profession
2. The best two defensive mechanics in the game
3. They can be both obtained in the same build

Which profession can do what a Thief can do? None.
The thief is a win-win profession. You can go full glass cannon and still have too much survivability. That’s why people are complaining.

If I go glass cannon on a Warrior, on a Necromancer, on a Guardian, or a Ranger, or any other profession who comes in my mind (except, maybe, Mesmer), I just die in few hits, which is what I deserve to play such an offensively imbalanced build.

Mathias.9657:

This is partly true, landing a C&D on a skilled opponent is hard as hell. I miss half of mine in tpvp when I don’t have a closer up then if I get CC’d I’m dead instantly, thieves only have great defense vs bad players. Our defense is trash, I’d much MUCH rather a source of protection than relying on stealth 24/7.

I don’t know which build do you run, but if you’re running on Sword mainhand, you hardly fall to CC. You have a freaking stunbreaker on 1 initiative (2 as the opener)… How can you fall to CC?

Archaon.6245:

Oh well…welcome to mesmer’s life in tpvp…you can’t bring what you like, you bring what you need…for you and your team (Expec the second one)

At least, you deal damage.

Archaon.6245:

Obviously you never ever went tpvp with a thief (Or never went tpvp at all)….low risk yeah, just make a thief and go for a tpvp midfight and see how thieves are so low risk….you’re going to die even before you realize something happened…this is not stupid wsvw you don’t have a zerg covering your back so you can just go here and there killing random nubs with maybe 30 levels less than you…thief is the most killable prof and the one that needs the best positioning and timing in order to survive..you have no cond removal, you have crap armor and healing..all you can do is going stealth but ppl are not so dumb to not spamming aoes killing you anyway…decent players actually know where the thief is even if he went stealth..or you’re one of those who think that ppl in stealth just vanish and you can’t get them until they’re visible again?

Who plays D/D glass cannon these days?
S/D is one of the most played build and they are far from squishy or easy to kill.

Fact is that Thieves have only to put 20 trait points either in Acrobatics or Shadow Arts to have incredibly effective defenses. Plus, S/D is a defensive set by itself.
Feline Grace + Vigor on healing + Withdraw are more than enough to grant amazing defenses. Same is for Meld with Shadows + Cloak and Dagger + Shadow’s Embrace + Infusion of Shadow.
I wonder which profession, excluding Thief, is capable to get good defenses only by spending some traitpoints in a specific traitline.

Don’t lie saying that thieves are squishy. The time when people ran full glass cannon with 0 defenses are past. Now thieves still run berserker, but at least they now know that they have to spend some points into defensive traitlines.

Most stupid idea I’ve ever heard in the Thief forum. Yet it received an huge amount of +1. This says much about average thief player’s idea of balance.

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

Dest.7410:

You mean shatters that require 3 clones/phantasms up + the combo to be quite neatly set up? Please tell me how I can shatter without clones (which use the other cds) and also please do tell me that I am expected to sit in place while I am killed, not use any defensive capabilities at all.

You are being idiotic and rather biased

Obviously, I assumed you pressed randomly keys on your keyboard before pushing the two magic buttons. No PvPer watch the fight doing nothing, just press something to show everyone how you are involved in the fight.
The only thing you have to pay attention to is to not press F2-F3-F4 before you press the two magic buttons, that’s all.

You just press random keys and then f1 or f2 and you win? Well first of COF does crap damage so most people never use it unless they need a shatter for something else. Most mesmers press f3 to get that vulnerability stacked up and then they press f1 (ONLY AFTER THEY HAVE GOTTEN MAX CLONES OUT AGAIN.) So in order for mesmers to do max damage they must have six clones shattered within the space of 2-3 seconds… But I guess we just auto win everytime because of blurred frenzy. yeah not.

No. It’s because you press F1 then F2. The keys are F1 and 2!

Dest.7410:

You mean shatters that require 3 clones/phantasms up + the combo to be quite neatly set up? Please tell me how I can shatter without clones (which use the other cds) and also please do tell me that I am expected to sit in place while I am killed, not use any defensive capabilities at all.

You are being idiotic and rather biased

Obviously, I assumed you pressed randomly keys on your keyboard before pushing the two magic buttons. No PvPer watch the fight doing nothing, just press something to show everyone how you are involved in the fight.
The only thing you have to pay attention to is to not press F2-F3-F4 before you press the two magic buttons, that’s all.

Dest.7410:

Please tell me those two buttons to win in a class that needs to use 80% of its cooldowns to even harm someone?

I don’t know which button you have binded, but I think they are F1 and 2.

Dest.7410:

Funny thing, they do have the lowest damage output from all other scholar classes (nevermind soldier/adventurers)

Funny thing is, they die easier than eles/necros.

Funny thing is, 2 of the nerfs we got was a buff cancelation, one of it was an across the board nerf. The rest did kitten the class, you don’t see mesmer tanks anymore… wonder why?

And one of our 2 hardest-hitting phantasms is blatantly malfunctioning for 5 months, since it was ‘fixed’

Oh, and the number of mesmers has dropped to 1/5 of what it was in tournaments (since that is apparently all that you care)

And excuse me for whining after receiving only nerfs thus far. At least I am doing it in a way that does not destroy other classes.

What I don’t understand is people’s reasoning about nerf, like they are some sort of punishment to a profession, something you should fear.

In my opinion, if I were that attached to a profession, I’d prefer 10x times to be the profession to be nerfed compared to, let’s say, Necromancer, who have only received buff, so they should be good, but they are still on the weak side of balance.

But yeah, probably people fear the nerf because they fear the balance… Who is capable to really compete with other people when you are used to press two buttons and win?

Travlane.5948:

i understand what you mean. but necros are prolly the best zerg players in the game. best at conditions (arguable with engineers) best at aoe CC….good aoe dmg….and lots of HP / hp skills :P . 1 v 1? prolly not jaw droppers or show stoppers but to each their own. are they op ? no. do they need a lil love? yes but who doesnt. i played main monk in gw1. i prefer to be behind the scenes and the “needed character” that people rely ont o make a group run smoothly like a well oiled machine. i really miss that part ni an MMO. i wish they would give us that as a new class soon.

I played GW1 too. There is no profession as Monk in Guild Wars 2, something everyone’s need to run a game. This is a bless in my point of view.

I renew the invite to try from yourself the Necromancer.
I guarantee that high HP pool is completely useless with no combat mobility, damage mitigation, no good stunbreakers, no stability and no vigor. You’ll last a couple of hits more, but you’re going to die anyway.

PearlGore.7419:

You are aware Necros are one of the most important parts of the current ZvZ meta right? Why do you think that is?

You sure?
I thought they were Elementalists and Engineers. But hey, this is GW2 forum, not the game.

Only two things I’d like to change about wells:

1. Place well-related traits in a more coherent way (seriously, they are spread across 3 different traitlines…)
2. Focused Rituals on 1200 range.

That’s all.

Travlane.5948:

i didnt complain. i was boasting…(that means bragging) how good necros are. what are ya missing? :P theres like a total of 3 players in game/forums that have really ever disagreed with me to an extent. seberent teamkiller shadowskill …..troll on. btw necromances are NASTY i choose them over thief if i had to make a dream team. and i dont even play necros much

…

and i dont even play necros much

I never doubted that.
Half of the Necro community GW2 had has already rerolled to another main character. I think you should find by yourself why.
Just consider that Necros have never been FotM. Never.

They are also getting buffed patch after patch. You’d say “How, that’s fantastic! Lucky Necros!”. No, it’s not.
I’d prefer 100x times to get a nerf then a small, little buff every patch. At least I had the feel to have used something too powerful which deserved a nerf.

Travlane.5948:

what are you reading? i wasnt the one who started the comparison. i was just putting in some info. and i never said thief is weak. i love them they are fun to play…weak or strong. they are great and prolly the best/tied for the best in 1 v 1. but in the bottom 2 when it comes to larger group play. just the facts. necros would def love their marks on intiative… but that means they lose their 2nd weaponswet like we do :P so they go from 8 attacks spammed to 3? idk :P lol tough call. cluster bomb is better than all necro AOES except for one necro that does liek 1535 base dmg on it…(forgot name) but cluster can take 4 seconds to hit ground…..so it comes at a severe handicap.

1. You are the one who took someone’s example who mentioned Necro to start a whole 4-page Necro-Thief comparison.
2. Reading the OP, it doesn’t look like you think Thief isn’t weak.
Just quoting you:

Thieves IMO are not a choice for TPVP and have basically 1 role in wvw (venom share or Maybe scouting). You cant even shadow step across a trap without setting it off……

being useful/needed would be nice to hear when you see a LFG dungeon or when setting up wvw raids with individual battalions setup to be balanced .

what defense will a thief then have? what role? this has to hurt their money as thieves wont spend money on a game they cant play/play well or at all :P idk

Unless I have comprehension problems, these posts show your disappointment about the Thief class; you apparently doesn’t find it strong enough.

Travlane.5948:

seems like its the same 3-4 people trolling thief forums as usual. the plethora of skills i poitned out were like 20% weapon skills. the rest were utilities or effects of F mechanics and elites etc

the only AOE dmg skill a thief has is CLUSTER BOMB the rest are all conditions. nice try tho i like the effort. if u wanna play like that i can add in another 20 necro skills that are aoe conditions. i didnt choose those i only chose the ones with direct dmg. but i bet you looked at them and noticed that? i dont half -a** things.

and again i ask you for examples how how a thief can not be predictable so i wouldnt bash your statement up front and give you a chance to elaborate. but you didnt. hence a thief kinda being forced to rinse and repeat the same combos til it works. only s/d has enough combinations with utilities to keep em guessing.

When will you stop comparing the two professions?
Despite the fact that they are incorrect (Cluster Bomb is the only AoE damage skill? Are we playing the same profession?), they makes no sense at all.

The fact that Cluster Bomb costs initiative, makes it worth 3x or event more of the Necro AoEs simply because you can use it twice in a row while Necros have to burn two cooldowns to have the same effect. You have no idea on how happy every Necro would be if Mark of Blood had no cooldown but it costed initative. You have no idea also on how happy every Necro would be if Staff #1 bounced between targets and were as fast as Trick Shot is, also at reduced cooldown.

Your profession isn’t weak. Get over it.

Travlane.5948:

so you wanna say that it averages 3 people? or lets up the scenario to a 40 v 40 thieves vs necros. i did 5 v 5 so you could easily comprehend the numbers and %’s . (not a dig its just easier for anyone). 5 v 5 was just low numbers and its easily divided/compared/ratio. realistically its minimum 25 v 25 when a fight happens. more often its 35-50 vs 35-50 on average ….and up to 100+. so yeah i think that more often than not AOES hit more than 3 targets. hence the conversation being about dmg in group fights. even if its only 8 v 8. lets say that it only hits 2 people. if the aoe dmg is half of what the thief single target dmg is they are even. wont even try to go into the fact that necro ice debilitates melee players or what timed fear chains do. or the fact that a necro has access to about idk 6x more hp than a thief. just talkign dmg here.

You are throwing this discussion to a mere class comparison which should not exists in first place. You are also assuming that Necro = AoE and Thief = single target, which isn’t true.

You made to many compromises to build up your reasoning that it is no longer valid times ago. There is no reason to keep arguing in this way.

What I tried to say into first place is that Thieves aren’t weak, neither squishy or whatever you’d like to say about them, expecially in WvWvW, where high mobility is what keeps you alive.

So, yes. Anti-Stealth traps are a fair game change that won’t hurt the Thief overall but it actually gives some tools to players against Stealth, something they should have done at the game release.

Travlane.5948:

Sebrent.3625:

travlane, take a look at how many of those AOEs can actually fit into a single necromancer build. They can only have 2 weapon sets, 1 heal, 3 utilities, and an elite.

Additionally, your list ignores how difficult it can be to make use of many of those AOEs like wells and putrid explosion.

Stop talking about things you don’t or barely understand.

i dont understand that necros can add in X aoe dmg skills and thieves can add in Y single target dmg skills and when y=x ….the quantity of dmg that x produces will ALWAYS be greater…… :P

You are assuming that all AoEs hit 5 targets. While single target damage is quite reliable, AoE is extremely situational. Comparing raw numbers make no sense.

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow

Necro Aoe damage skills:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grim_Specter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Life_Transfer
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Water
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_Abyss
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Explosion
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_the_Locust
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plague
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Wind
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Fear
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Mark
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Grasp
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crimson_Tide
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wicked_Spiral
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deadly_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Scythe
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Locust_Swarm
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wail_of_Doom
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Touch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enfeebling_Blood

so necros have little access to aoe dmg?

and im comparing dmg ignoring stuff like CC even tho that would help argument. necros are MUCH better in larger group play. bring facts when u come. not JUST opinions.

Listing all of AoE necros have won’t prove your point. I hope you bothered to read the skill effects before you listed them all. I’ve said that Necros have no reliable access to direct damaging AoE skill, that’s all. Never said they have poor access.

Travlane.5948:

obviously sorrow is not good at math …which is better in a 5 v 5 battle?

A) 5 people doing 1100 damage to 5 targets that have 16.8k hp
B) 5 people doing 2000 damage to 1 target that has 16.8k hp

the correct answer is A.
Lets say each class lands each damage at same rate(1 second per hit dmg) just for comparison. The thief team needs collectively 9 hits of 2k damage against each enemy to kill their 5 targets in the 5 v 5 fight. This means 9 seconds total until each opponent is dead/downed, granted no heals or dmg mitigation of sorts. Now lets say the necro is attacking the same but each is doing 1100 damage to each enemy per second. this means the necro team would need 3 attacks each (cumulatively 6k damage in total each attack) to down/kill the 5 target thieves. if you look at it in a mathematical sense…. the necros are betting in group play. in 1 v 1 it would obviously flip.

Fun Fact: Under this scenario a thief would have to hit each target for 6k per hit each second just to tie the necros and would need 8.4k each hit to out damage the necro/win against them in a 5 v 5.

lets not even go into a computer simulated fight and suggest they each time chain AOE’s and Fears…would be a joke.

Actually, I’m not that bad at math.
What I usually don’t do, is to pick out numbers from nowhere and call it math.

What you did not consider into your calculation (assuming you are talking about condition damage, since Necros haven’t a reliable source of raw AoE damage):
1. Condition can be cleansed. Burst damage can’t.
2. Unless thief is using only its autoattack, which deals anyway more than 2k damage per second, the dps of a Thief is way higher.
3. Thief is capable to deal above 6k damage on a single hit, which is way more relevant than dealing 2k damage over 3 seconds. The variance is something you did not consider at all. Essentialy, 12k damage dealt all in the first second on a window of 10 seconds is way better than 1.2k damage equally distributed in each second, you should know why.
4. Thief has access to AoE too, in case you did not know. Don’t let me list them out, you should know those AoE.
5. Damage over time can be easily mitigated through heals. Burst damage can’t.
6. You did not consider enemy reaction at all. Thief needs half a time a Necro needs to dish out the same damage, which means the Necro is way more exposed to enemy attacks while the Thief is already running away stealthed.

Do I have to keep listing the flaws of your “math” or are those enough? I have a couple more points to make, but it is late here.

Travlane.5948:

@sorrow….stopped watching the video at 3 mins bc it only chose upscales…. typical thief vid. but yeah i get ur point that said and put aside tho. yes a thief can stay on the outskirts…like ive been saying on several threads and pick off the weak sheep. idk just not a viable build for group play to me. 90% of the zerg was ignoring him as he was 3 hitting upscales …..happens to me too. soon as they turn their attention you have to high tail it out. thats why i like my other build (in my opinion) bc you dont have to.

I thought you knew the Thief’s playstyle when you picked it up as your profession.
I don’t mind about upscales, culling and so on. What that Thief did is easily doable in these days in WvWvW and, despite the fact that it doesn’t show all the potential of the blast finisher I mentioned earlier, which you seem to ignore in your answers, it show how a Thief can be useful in a group fight.
Pick the weak sheep and burst it down.

The thing is that, believe me or not, Necromancers, who you are claiming to be great in group fight, aren’t capable to kill a single target with their super-duper strong AoE without any burst profession around (see Thief).
What a Necromancer can do in group fight is to make sure you won’t find a full HP bar once your burst start, that’s all. No Necromancer can kill a whole zerg or even a single target all by himself without a proper burst profession around, while Thief are.

Travlane.5948:

its usually 4 intiative as you get more total dmg with blowing it up before it lands. and he brought up an example on necros so i elaborated in a “different light” . i mean making necros look horrible is just a travesty. ive met great ones that were just sick 1 v 1 like gorath for example. and they are superb in a group as they spread dmg and conditions around. thieves cant do as much dmg as necros (collectively). if a thief hits 1 person for 1k a necro hits 5 for 600. not as strong in 1 v 1 but stronger in wvw/team play. hands down.

Necros are nearly horrible. They have some skills with are hated to some professions, but excluding those cases, they are overall horrible. You just want to take a look to their traits to get an idea. People who plays Necro and are actually effective with it either are 10x better or they are playing the right counter to the build you are running. Anyway, we don’t want to talk about Necros here, right?

You don’t want to explode your cluster bomb, you won’t trigger the blast finisher. I sometimes like to run around with shortbow blast finishing in every field I see. You have no idea how useful I am. Unloading all my initiative in a Fire field means 15+ stacks of might on 5 people, which is an HUGE damage boost. Same applies to Water fields, light fields or smoke fields. Blast finishing into them is an huge support to your team and thief is the only profession capable to do so thanks to the initiative system. You are underrating this feature quite much.

To answer the resting part of your reasoning, I’ll just link you a video.
Keep in mind that most of the skill/traits used in this video did not get a nerf, so it can be still done today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OYniHrGqE

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You do not understand Necromancer minions, please stop talking about them. Their AI does not work the way you think it does.

I don’t have any recording software, otherwise I would do so, gladly.

Here we go, man!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riO9Mzbcbj8

Travlane.5948:

SEBERT SAID: “Compare this to a poor necro, probably the worst class for roaming, and they can’t escape from anything except their own grandmother … and that’s only if they cripple her first :-p”

so yeah a necro was def brought up in converation :P reread above posts.
being good at group fights is useless when enemy zerg is 3x bigger? 100% correct hence me saying guild/zerg is most important and the specs for those are very few for thieves…. when i said group play it was more 8 v 8 for tpvp/spvp :P.

im not a sad kid with icecream dropped. no not at all. ive stated facts :P i mean cmon necro is WAY better than thief in zerg fights…imean SOOO much better. all his skills are AOE and affect alot of people with multiple condis…. and on a pulse at that. plus regular attack skills. now a thief only affects 1 target….other than his caltrops skills which is really good but only used in p/d bleed build. venom share is the best thing a thief can do in zerg play. simple. and stealth is the only defense a thief really has other than a few evades that are never used really (excluding endurance bc we all have that)

in a debate always bring examples or facts to the table and not say “awww spilt your milk” or "well you are wrong that thieves are worse than necros in zergs bc i say so " :P back it up. if u have that opinion thats fine thats great just bring something to the table to go with it. kind of bland :P

I’ve already said what I think about the matter.
Also, don’t misunderstand what Sebrent said. It is pretty obvious that he brought the Necromancer into the topic just as an example, for argument’s sake, not to incentivate a comparison between the two professions.

What I said in my previous post is that Thieves, in individual play, which is present in ANY form of PvP, starting from WvWvW to s/tPvP are the best, while being also quite capable in group fights. For instance, Thieves have a blast finisher on a 3 initiative cost, which is worth any mark/AoE/well/condition etc Necromancer has in terms of group fights.

There is a reason because people who plays Thieves are that much.

Travlane.5948:

theif roamers are TOO strong? no…but they are very strong.

Fact 1 : Thieves are 10x stronger than necros in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 2: Necros are 10x weaker than thieves in a “roaming” sense.
Fact 3: Necros are 10x stronger than thieves in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 4: Thieves are 10x weaker than necros in a “team/zerg” sense.
Fact 5: Roaming doesnt matter on any level.
Fact 6: Team/Guild/Zerg play is the most important part of the game.
Fact 7: Only thief roaming builds are called “OP” even tho useless (other than fun)

wait wait wait wait lol… if you think roaming is important or 1 v 1 is important than go to general forums to complain about how your class is sub par in 1 v 1 but OP and AMAZING in zergs…..

You are acting just like a little child whose ice cream fell to the ground.

No, Necros aren’t 10x stronger then Thieves in Team/Zerg, also none here called Necro into the discussion. You did.

I play both Thief and Necro, so I can have a clear idea of both profession.

Thief has Dagger Storm, which, this skill only, puts Thief in a good spot in team/zerg fights.
Thief has the ability to quickly disengage a fight in case the odds are not on your favor. This capability alone, is worth any AoE mark/well Necro has. I just like how I rush into the enemy line, unload all my initiative on poor guys, then I just use Stealth + Withdraw to easily disengage the fight and leave it with absolutely no damage.

So, before saying that the introduction of anti-stealth trap is unfair or to say that Necro is 10x stronger than Thief in group fights, try them both.

Also, roaming isn’t worthless. Actually, in group fights, it is just a matter of numbers in most the cases. Being good at group fights is useless when the enemy zerg is 3x bigger. Numbers are not a problem to Thieves, which gives them an HUGE advantage in every situation.

Probably they just realized that Thief roamers are too strong.
Don’t be childish, everyone should have felt like cheating while roaming in WvWvW. This change can only be good.

The world does not end, stealth is still there. You just have to be more careful when roaming around killing poor upleveled newbies.

TBH, it needs increased cooldown.
People here have pointed out that having a skill which does offense and defense at the same time requires skill to be used properly. Actually, it is true if the cooldown wasn’t that low, the evasion that long and the damage that high.

Like now, you can just press the button as often as you can and both deal damage and mitigate damage. Sounds pretty much cheap to me.

Blurried Frenzy is, in my opinion, the perfect skill everyone wants in his bar. It does everything good and on low cooldown. Enough reason to tone it down.

It has been said from ages, but nothing has been done.
Moa also cancel all the Necro elites, not only Minions, just saying.

shimmerless.4560:

I’m not terribly sure where these mythical ‘resetting’ Thieves who can escape any battle are found, or how exactly they’re so much more capable than other classes. I can escape pretty reliably on a Warrior (30+ seconds of Swiftness and 3.5 long-range dashes that don’t require a target, wat).

I think a lot of players forget that stealth is not invulnerability and that Thieves who can move well have to give up in other areas to accomplish this (mspeed in stealth takes up a trait, mspeed Signet takes up a util slot, a metric ton of Init gets blown on Shortbow #5, etc.)

1. Speed signet is not what gives thieves the ability to reset fights, neither is movement speed.
2. Withdraw and Roll for initiative are skills which gives you a massive distance from your target.
3. You don’t need initiative once you have escaped, so Infiltrator’s Arrow is a great escape skill.
4. Shadow Refuge is a sure escape most the cases, unless you are that unlucky to meet someone with an AoE knockback/fear, essentialy only staff Necro and GS/Staff mesmer.
5. Stealth isn’t invulnerability, but it gives no clue to the enemy about where you are going to escape, which makes it a GREAT escape mechanic. Stealth+Withdraw/Roll for Initiative is a sure escape with no counter at all, exluding obviously some lucky CC.

daydream.2938:

Jesus Christ the line up of people complaining about thiefs. Gw2guru should make a why thiefs are not op and heres how to l2p video explaining this .

Hi average Thief player
Are you enjoying your profession?