Guild Wars 2

Tulisin.6945:

Wouldn’t that be nice, but you’ve got it mixed up. The majority of the damage from the skill comes from the harder to land second hit. The initial strike is the one that has sword autoattack-level damage.

They can:
Reduce the initiative cost
-or-
Make the skill track better
-or-
Make the skill do more damage
-or
Make the skill evade better
-or-
Make the skill better at stripping boons (2 boons stripped, or 1 stolen instead of stripped)

…but as it stands the skill is mediocre at fulfilling any of these functions and, as a result of trying to do too many things at once, is less effective for doing anything.

You’re right that you can use it to force an evade to get out of Hundred Blades or something, but you could just as easily IF or dodge out, even without bringing movement utilities.

Flanking Strike is a somewhat unique skill, and useful, but just because it isn’t completely useless does not make it balanced.

Right now it is balanced.
It costs 4 initiative which is low compared to other dual skills looking at the effects.
It isn’t a damage skill, damage is just a plus, but it should’t be your main source of damage anyway.
It is an extra dodge when you are out of endurance at low cost, strip a boon and can deal heavy damage if you succed to stay in melee range at the second hit.

Reducing the initiative cost would make it unbalanced, because if you reduce the initiative more, it will be too cheap compared to its effects.
Come on, boon stripping, evade, repositioning and damage at 3 initiative? It would be crazy.

The skill now tracks just good. If you are in melee range, you’ll get your first hit landed at 100% chance. The second one isn’t sure, but to make sure it lands it is just a matter of staying in melee range. You know, you just need to pay some attention.

The skill damage is good according to its effects. Do you consider 5k damage if fully landed coupled with boon stripping and evade not enough?

What do you mean with “make the skill evade better”? The evade is an actual extra dodge which does not require endurance… What else do you want?

Stripping 2 boons? What? Stripping boon is hard in the whole game but making a skill which strips 2 boons at 4 initiative and no recharge is the dead of balance. Same if it steals boons, one boon removing on a skill with no recharge is enough. Just imagine if it steals boons… You can litterally steal the Signet of Rage effects and all the boons on a Guardian/Elementalist each time they cast them. Literally unbalanced.

The skill is useful, works well, is worth using and its effects aren’t too powerful, so it is balanced.
The fact that you thieves have better builds doesn’t mean that Flanking Strike need a buff, it means that other builds need a nerf.

Just think that a Thief, when traited in Shadow Arts (Shadow’s Rejuvenation and Shadow Protector), can be healed for 500+ hp per second while in Stealth only with the +300 healing power provided by the traitline, this means that Shadow Refuge will actually refill your life bar. I didn’t tested it out with more Healing Power.

kineticdamage.6279:

So, history of Rogue archetypes repeats itself …

Seems like we won’t see any MMO dev who will assume the “cannon” part of glass-cannon, after all.

(because yeah, actually if I don’t spec full Toughness/Healing with my Thief, I just die in 3 hits)

Like every other profession!
It’s not only thieves who die really fast if they don’t invest in toughness or defensive skills, but thieves have also another advantage: Stealth.

Just take, for instance, the Elementalist. If you don’t put any point in Earth Magic or Water Magic, you are going to die in a couple of hits anyway. Necromancer are in the same situation, same for Warrior, Guardians, Rangers and Engineers.

But Thieves have stealth and high mobility to leave a fight you are going to lose or to get better positioning.

The point is that BS build damage right now is too high also for a glass cannon.

Mrbig.8019:

The boon stripping was is not the problem: it’s good.

The problems are:

1: the skill doesn’t evade reliably, having a pretty high mirror of vulnerability in the secondo hit, making it sub-par to DB as an evasive move.

2: the pathing gets wrong as soon as the enemy moves. While you can move while dealing the second strike, it’s very, VERY hard to follow your opponent if he’s not crippled/chilled.
Against targets with swiftness, it will almost never hit.

3: auto-facing prevents getting flanking bonuses. Plus they will follow your moves as long as their moves are fast enough, so that you won’t get any positioning/surprise advantage.

Again,

FS
IS
GARBAGE.

1. The second hit is just like a sword autoattack which deals more damage after the evade. If you need to evade, just dodge and cancel it. FS isn’t just an evasive move, it strip one boon on a cost of 4 initiative, which is more than enough to consider it worth to have on your bar. Don’t forget that Death Blossom costs 5 initative, deals less damage and doesn’t strip any boon, so, after all, it isn’t sub-par compared to it.

2. Just like any melee range skill. I don’t see anything strange here, Flanking Strike isn’t a gap closer, neither a ranged skill. If it is hard to hit target with swiftness is just because they are kiting you, not because flanking strike is bad.

3. I really can’t understand it. Flanking Strike give an advantage only when dealing with melee channeled skills which root you in place, like Pistol Whip or Hundred Blades, it isn’t a counter to everything.

Flanking Strike is good, very good.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Its a powerful skill, as long as the pathing doesn’t get you killed by taking you completely out of position against your will. They should really fix that.

Path doesn’t get you killed
I can use that skill also as a gap closer and it works really good. Pathing is fine.

Absolutely no.
If stealth is buffed, it should be reduced in effectiveness and should be easier to spot.
Right now Stealth is extremely good, giving it more goodness will just ruin thieves and making them more imbalanced.
Just imagine Sword/Dagger Daze lockers with easy to access stealth… The end of every form of PvP.

Thieves just need a damage nerf to the Backstab combo, nothing else.
Their damage is fine, their survivability is also fine.

Mrbig.8019:

No.

FS is not good at all in PvP.
Alotugh the damage is fine, the point is that this game has AUTO-FACING, so that your enemy will follow your animation and hit you in that nice frame where the attack doesn’t evade ( second hit).

Oh, sorry, it’s not a frame, it’s FREAKING second long animation.

Most other professions’ autoattack hit faster than the evade animation time, so that they’ll follow your toon while evading ( PvP is not like PvE, where enemies hit slow and are predictable, so that you can easily avoid the strike and their auto-facing won’t be triggered).

I’ve tried it with a friend of mine, and it seems that only ranged auto-attacks ( since they’ve quite long casting times) and warriors’ hammer are slow enough to allow FS to not trigger auto-facing ( effectively putting you behindot to the side): in other situations, just keeping on autoattacking is enough to make this skil totally useless if not for the damage ( that you’ll get back in the 1 second-wide second hit animation, since you’re a thief and you’re squishy by default).

This skill is completely garbage, and people defending it are not experienced enough, or didn’t do enough testing.

The skill isn’t completely garbage.
I want to know if you guys have really tried it out seriously.
Above all, it comes in combination with Sword+Dagger, a build which can provide easy dazechains, nice mobility and annoyment to the enemy.
Second, it not only strips a boon and has low initiative cost, but it also gives you an evade.

That skill is incredibly powerful against any bunker which relies on boons. Just try it out against guardian and you’ll see how they die fast with their boons stripped each time you use flanking strike.
Plus, the damage output is good. It deals about 2k+3k of damage, which is a total of 5k. More then enough when you consider the extra effects it gives and the low initiative cost.

Not every build is made up to be glass-cannon instant-kill, S/D is one of this build.

SFtheWolf.5179:

Your form of argument is begging the question. You’re basically saying “my premise is correct therefore my premise is correct”. Repeating your opinion that backstab is overpowered doesn’t add any weight to your case.

Also people keep assuming I build Pistol Whip or Backstab and that’s why I have something invested in this. I don’t. I just hate seeing mob rule and appeals to popular opinion winning the day. It makes me concerned for the future.

As for Pistol Whip’s ongoing viability, all I can say is I bring one stun break and every single Pistol Whip thief I fight in PvP completely falls apart. Maybe I just haven’t fought a good one yet.

You know this reminds me of the constant complaints about the Spy in TF2. Despite being just about the worst class in the game now, people are still enraged by its mere existence. Casuals (a factual statement, regardless of if it’s derogatory) refused to modify their gameplay to take into account the basic counters required to prevent one from instakilling you. In response, Valve has made it so that you can consistently hear one uncloaking behind you (and I’m not talking about the Dead Ringer).

As a result, it’s extremely rare for anyone worth their salt to be killed by a spy any more, ever. If you have headphones on and do the occasional 180 visual check, you simply will not be ambushed by one.

It’s a perfect example of the casual demographic’s demands ruining a class that takes a deliberate action or two to counter. It happens in nearly every game that has one, and I don’t want to see it happen again here.

I believe if Backstab gets outright nerfed, it will be a decisive step in that direction.

Your concern about the future is completely unfounded.
First, ArenaNet isn’t a newborn software house, neither they have no experience at all with balancing.
They have proved many times that they don’t balance around what people say in the forums, they just balance about what they think it is right. If a whole community say “hey, PW is overpowered” they don’t nerf it without thinking, they usually test the skill to figure out if it is really overpowered, test possible modified skill and finally makes the right choice in their opinion.
If you had played Guild Wars, you’ll figure out that they made really great work balancing a game which is way, way harder to balance when compared to Guild Wars 2. Right now every profession has its place, both in PvP and in PvE and there is no outstanding profession at all. Assassins, in Guild Wars, was what we can consider as the Thief precursors. They were nerfed several times, of course, but they also recived buffs when it was needed.
Also Thieves have received buffs in the BWE, probably buffs were too much and now they needs to be toned down a bit, but I don’t see the reason to worry about the future of the profession, seriously.

If now Pistol Whip as a counter, it is fine. High burst builds have to be easily countered. If they were not easy to counter (like backstab is now), they would be overpowered.
The more damage you deal with a skill, the easier it should be countered.

Oh please.
I’ve met an Elementalist (bunker of course, the only Ele build available atm) also in a desert sPvP match and started to duel.
I was running sword/dagger + pistol/pistol, two builds which thieves usally consider as underpowered, and also I wasn’t even specced as a glass cannon.

I’ve destroyed that Ele with ease 4 duels out of 4 while he succeded to manage a Necro and a Guardian in the same time. I just want to imagine what would happen if I was running the op D/D build you were running.

The truth is that Elementalists and Necromancers need to be tweaked, Ranger also needs tome build tweaked.
Engineers, Warriors and Mesmers (excluding the Moa Morph and Portal) are almost fine.
Thieves need to be toned down, also Guardians need some work.

It can be good, but you have to work twice as hard as you would when playing other professions.

bwillb.2165:

This simply is not true. That’s where it’s balanced, it is extremely easy to counter once you know what’s going on. That’s why you don’t see this build much if at all outside of low-end play. It also absolutely requires preparation, you have to save all of your major cooldowns and achieve positioning behind your target to get decent damage out of it. it’s not like you can just run up to the first person you see, smash a few buttons, then move on to the next target and do the same level of burst again 3 seconds later. That’s what most proponents of the nerf want you to believe, but that’s simply not the case.

What I said is true.

It is hard to counter
Backstab burst is almost instant and most the time is coupled with Devourer Venom. Once the burst start, which is a matter of fractions of second, if you don’t have any invulnerability skill, you’ll probably get killed or get almost all your HP bar taken away. Keep in mind that not every profession have access to invulnerability and all are on very high cooldown.
You can also anticipate the burst with a dodge, but, still, it is a matter of luck because there is no visual clue at all of the burst coming other than the presence of the thief.
Other bursts, like HB, Kill Shot, Eviscerate and Shatter have clear visual clues of burst coming, like Bull’s Charge animation, the warriors standing on his knee for 2 seconds, Eviscerate jump and loads of clones ready to be shattered. What is the visual clue to backstab burst?

It doesn’t require preparation
Mesmers’ and Warriors’ burst need to be prepared.
Shatter burst need that you have to unload all your clones/phantasms before the burst take place and it usually takes more than 4 seconds, which is enough to the victim to realize that the burst is coming, making it also easy to counter.
Warriors’ burst, like Eviscerate and Kill Shot, need adrenaline and to build up a full andrenaline bar you need at least 4-5 seconds of fight.
What is the preparation on BS burst? Just using 2 instant-cast skills which can be activated 30+ seconds before the encounter?

I think that you agree that it is risk free because I don’t see any arguments against it.

SFtheWolf.5179:

Don’t insult other people’s skill level and then make out like Heartseeker spam is somehow difficult to avoid.

Also I still don’t see why thieves having the best single target damage in the game is a problem. I’d call it a problem if they didn’t.

Furthermore; You’re only seeing what you want to if you think this is about “one skill”. For one, backstab is the focal point of a large number of assassination builds (which should be a totally valid option). For another, the whining about thieves has ruined skills that already weren’t fantastic for anything but pubstomping in the past (Pistol Whip). If Backstab gets ruined, it’s logical to predict the whining will move onto something else, and the cycle will just continue until thieves are useless.

You should have at least have read the context of what I said.
I’ve stated that thieves have the highest single-target DPS in the game to answer Rukia who said Thieves are bad in dungeons and will get even more bad, when almost all the action in that part of game is based on single target engagements with bosses, in which thieves excels.

Pistol Whip, right it is now, is still very viable.
Pigiaduroitastini (Seba Z), Italian as I am, is a great thief player and runs PW in tPvP also after the nerf with great results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYsl9CxNdA&feature=plcp

Pistol Whip, before the nerf, was just overpowered, now is is well balanced.
You feel it as weak because you compare it to Backstab, which is another op build on the thief. When Backstab will get a nerf too, you’ll realize that all builds are effective the same and they are all viable, unless another op build will stand out and start to monopolize all the thieves again. When you feel that all builds are equally viable, you’ll know that there is balance but till that point, there is no balance.

Other thief’s builds aren’t weak, they are just weaker in comparison with backstab, that’s all. There is no reason to run them over backstab but it isn’t that other builds are all weak, it is just backstab which is stronger than it should.

The final solution to every Necro problems.

Curses: + power + Condition Damage
Spite: + precision + critical damage
Death Magic: + toughness + condition duration
Blood Magic: + vitality + healing power
Soul Reaping: + LF pool + boon duration

Let all traits work and we’ll finally see a viable Necro.

Well, there are some cases when in WvWvW I’ve met people roaming around and engaged a fight with them.

After I succeded to down them, not the time to stomp and they rally. I mean, rally for no real reason, no neutral/hostle mobs around, neither an enemy.
Can it be the Jagged Horror?

I only see thieves prophesying the apocalypse of the thief class based on the possible nerf of just one skill. This is a clear indication of how you guys are the ones who can’t adapt to changes and that you are the whiny kids and casual players.
It is clear to any hardcore and high-level PvP player that thieves, right now, needs some work. Now if you aren’t that kind of pubstomper kids, you’ll know that backstab nerf doesn’t hurt at all any thief capability, both in PvE and in tPvP. The only ones who this possible nerf is hurting are people who likes to roam around WvWvW and sPvP killing random guys and enjoying their easy wins.

STRanger.5120:

sorrow.2364:

Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.

Care to clarify this? I didn´t know of any DPS measuring option for this game so far…

Initiative.
Thieves can use their highest damage skill over and over till the initiative is over, dealing massive damage.
Other professions are locked to a cooldown and can’t do this, but thieves can just focus on their high-damage output skill on their skillbar ignoring any utility, while other professions are forced to cycle their skills till the high-damage skill is rechared or to use autoattack and save utilities for better situations.

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

Again, you don’t get base damage by working backwards from situational fringe-case damage numbers. The wiki has the absolute base damage and the equation needed to get the actual damage done working up from there, if you’re interested.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

They don’t usually hit for 5k each. The average damage I’m seeing on crits is about 7000-8500 for backstab, 1800-3200 for CnD, and 1700-3000 for Mug, with a very rare 9k backstab or 5k CnD or mug every now and then. Out of about 50 tries I got the stars to align once for a maximum total burst of close to 19k. Certainly not the norm, and can be matched by mesmer and far outclassed by warrior. And I think it may be a bug that mug and cnd are getting that high once in a while, because that’s an awful big gap for just weapon damage variance compared to other abilities like backstab.

Base damage does not take into account the Power stat, which actually raise it up really high and also weapon damage.

Since the damage calculation is unknown right now, the only way to get the damage of Backstab scaled on full power is to take an example of a landed backstab, removing all the damage boosts provided by traits/sigils/runes and see what is found and claim it to be the minimum base backstab damage bonus because we are considering that the screenshot used as example is based of a fringe situation, as you said, but in the other way you might think, because we are assuming that the damage dealt benefits from all the damage boosters possible.

So, we have figured out that the minimum base damage dealt on a light vest 900-toughness character, with maximum power possible is about 4.5k damage.

It doesn’t matter if it is a fringe case as you are claiming to be or not, we aren’t able to know that. Might stacks (not so many anyway) and vulnerability stacks doesn’t change this result that much, it can vary around 4-5k damage anyway, far from the 2k damage you are claiming to be the base backstab damage.
The only thing we know is that it happened and we have proofs of it; this is more then enough to get an estimation of the base backstab damage.

Anyway, claiming that other professions can deal that damage isn’t a valid justification. Probably they also need to be balanced, we don’t know, but it isn’t in topic.

What you have to do is proving me that dealing over 15k damage in a combo which takes about a second to be executed, has no risk at all, is hard to counter and needs no preparation is fair in terms of balance.

Rukia.4802:

Yea well I was more referring to dungeons, you know real pve not zergfest where you can literally run anything and get away with it… calm down seriously, I didn’t know a cry storm was about to hit me in the face.

So, the situation is even worse.
When you are running dungeon you are in most the cases hitting a single target.
Thieves have the best single target damage out of this game by far.

Just try Necro, bring him to high levels and see how stupid is what you said.

Doomdesire.9365:

I’ve said this once. I’ll say it again. The 20K backstabs people are claiming can no longer be done. That has changed and it is now IMPOSSIBLE. If you still think thieves are capable of 20K backstabs then it show’s how ignorant you are on the subject.

None said about 20k damage.
Most people are referring to 20k backstab combo, which includes Mug and CnD. That combo, dear sir, still deals 20k damage.

Tulisin.6945:

sorrow.2364:

Thief can stack up at the same time:
+10% damage with both daggers
+5% damage with Dagger Training
+10% damage with Exposed Weakness
+10% damage with First Strikes

If by “+10% damage with both daggers” you mean dual sigils, they don’t stack unless it was changed recently.

So the base damage of backstab is even higher than the value I’ve calculated.

DanH.5879:

ok then, i am idiot and i rest my case.
still, backstab = 3xbase damage (from the back), what is wrong with that ?
just because buffed goes trough the roof, it affects my build, no, it isn’t a bs build.
but i like to give a 1-2k dmg sometimes with it
i would really want a compensation for nerfing, in other areas. not just nerf and voila, you can play without an arm and a leg, have fun ! (just the 6+nerfs in a row, inclding the dagger storm),i considered the signet thing a welcome buff-nerf.

You are right. Buff will come to something which is weak in comparison.
Backstab needs a nerf, this is sure, Traps, on the other hand, need help.

bwillb.2165:

Sorry, I was trying to get to the bottom of it in a logical, scientific manner. I thought I had finally found someone who was somewhat civil about it on the other side, but I’m starting to think that was a mistake with your last comment there. In any case, it’s possible that there may be a bug in the calculation somewhere. because with the build that a few of your say does [insert number between 14k and 21k here] damage, I see 7-8k 90% of the time, with the occasional spike up to 11k or so, which would kind of support the possibility of there being a bug under certain situations.

So in conclusion, the base damage is fine, the buffs when working as intended are fine, anet fix your kitten bugs.

The point is, I’ve shown you proofs that base damage of backstab when hitting on the back is way higher than 2k damage as you were claiming and it still looks like you don’t want to accept that fact.

Anyway 8k damage on an instant skill which is usually used in combination with 2 other skills which usually hit for 5k damage each is still way too high to be considered balanced.

bwillb.2165:

That doesn’t prove anything. That’s not a good source of information. Those 14k secreenshots did not include context. You don’t know what 3rd party buffs or debuffs either side had, you don’t know if there was a frenzy involved, etc. a quick 10 stack of vulnerability from a ranger and a warrior in frenzy could likely get it up to 20k damage, but that doesn’t mean that to find the base damage we take 20k damage minus the bonuses we can personally add.

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/21001/gw002.jpg

Just look at this.
The target is for sure a Necromancer and the context is sPvP/tPvP.
This because in the kill log, there is only a thief killing, one kill is made by heartseeker and there are no heartseeker in the deathlog. So the person being killed is for sure Stynmar.

There was also a ranger around, he was running with MH Axe for sure which has no access to vulnerability.
The only ranger skill’s which deal vulnerability is Hunter Shot which you clearly don’t see in the deathlog.
The same ranger, as you know, has no way to apply Might to an ally and since there aren’t any other damage in the deathlog other than the thief’s ones and the ranger’s ones, we can assume that in that place there was just a ranger and a thief against a necro and probably a thief, dead right after the necro.

So we can easily reconstruct the situation and you clearly see there is nothing which falsify my calculations.
At maximum there could be 3 stacks of self-infliced vulnerability on the Necro which doesn’t really change the results.

So, what’s your next step? Do you want to claim that the screenshot is photoshopped?

DanH.5879:

sorrow.2364:

This proves that the base damage of backstab is AT LEAST almost 5k damage.
All this assuming, obviously, that the thief was running with the highest damage boost possible, was on full initiative and that the screenshot was taken pre-nerf. If one of those conditions aren’t true, the base damage is even higher.

how about you go test your useless opinion in pvp and let me know of the results.
10×. (not WvW because it’s broken, just the random pvp in the mists)

I’ve tried it from myself lots of times and now I’m trying to convince you with clear evidences.
But it looks like that they aren’t enough to fix some spoilt judgments.

I intially thought that Rfreak and Hellfish were wrong, but the more I argue with you, the more I think they are right.

Dude, I play Necromancer, don’t say to me how’s the feel when none wants you.
I know how it feels to be underpowered and weak and, since I alt as Thief, trust me, Thieves are far from underpowered.
I think that a nerf on the base damage of backstab doesn’t hit the Thief effectiveness at all but it instead will give Thieves more balance among their possible builds.

Again, I don’t know on which basis you say that they won’t split skills in PvP and in PvE as they have already done back in Guild Wars 1 and they are still doing in Guild Wars 2. If the nerf is also in PvE, means that probably ArenaNet thinks that this nerf is needed also in PvE. They know their job.

As you want dude.

You realize that all the traits I listed can be used together.
Plus the Runes of Fury which gives you a 10% boost on critical damage.
Base damage bonus on Crit is +50%, the other 50% is given by Critical Strikes (30%) and Berserker Amulet (+20%).

So the total of +160% damage boost on the base damage isn’t unreal.

You have seen many screenshots of people getting critted for 14k damage from backstab. Screenshots can’t be considered false, that’s obvious. But let’s think evil and consider that those screenshots are taken before the Assassin’s Signet nerf.
This means that before the nerf the total damage boost possible was +195% (160% + 35% of the damage boost removed) and, assuming that those thieves were running on this damage boost.

So, 14k damage is went out from this formula:

14k = x + x*1.92

Where “x” is our base damage.

Doing some algebraic transformation, we’ll end up that the base damage is:

x = 14k / (1+1.95) = 14k/2.95 = 4745 damage around

This proves that the base damage of backstab is AT LEAST almost 5k damage.
All this assuming, obviously, that the thief was running with the highest damage boost possible, was on full initiative and that the screenshot was taken pre-nerf. If one of those conditions aren’t true, the base damage is even higher.

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

bwillb.2165:

But backstab doesn’t hit for 4 or 5k before all of those bonuses. WIthout runes or traits or amulet, with exotic daggers, it does about 975 to 1025 against light armor. About 2k if you include the amulet stats.

You are not considering the power bonus damage, the weapon base damage and the Might stacking damage.
Backstab can easily hits clean at 4-5k damage.
If it is like you said, you shouldn’t see any backstab which hits more than 5k damage about and you know that it is unreal.

The 2k number includes the power stats that come from the amulet. Runes and might stacks are included in your 160% bonuses calculation, no?

No, they aren’t
160% is only from damage stacking bonuses, which boost the base damage which is determined by Power, weapon damage and might stacks.
It is just math, you can’t argue against math, you are losing your time.

bwillb.2165:

But backstab doesn’t hit for 4 or 5k before all of those bonuses. WIthout runes or traits or amulet, with exotic daggers, it does about 975 to 1025 against light armor. About 2k if you include the amulet stats.

You are not considering the power bonus damage, the weapon base damage and the Might stacking damage.
Backstab can easily hits clean at 4-5k damage.
If it is like you said, you shouldn’t see any backstab which hits more than 5k damage about and you know that it is unreal.
The only fact that there are screenshots of backstab hitting for 14k+ damage in sPvP, also if you remove the 35% damage bonus due to the nerf, the damage should be around 10-12k, which means that backstab hits way more than 2k base damage.

Jinks.2057:

You are seriously complaining about thieves in sPvP and tPvP.

Stop.

No one that plays higher tiers have any problems in dealing w/ glass cannon thieves. The people that are having problems are people running around WvW…..Anet doesn’t balance on WvW, but yet you horrible players keep complaining.

Stop.

So, your post really helps the topic, is full of great reasoning and proofs in support of what you say that I can’t disagree.

Please, next time you want to defend your broken class, at least try to make a real argument and not only stupid statements coming from your dubious competitive PvP experience.

Runcore.5107:

Sorrow you really dont understand what i mean by this post.

First, me and other thieves are not crying here just reacting on QQ topics which was made by real crying kids. We are just defending ourselves.

Second, all QQ topics here speak about “OP” daggers skills and I never said that I use daggers. I was using daggers maybe on first 20 levels but from this time I use only P/P or shortbow so we can say that im objective thief because upcoming nerf of daggers has no influence on me.

Third, I have never said that im interested on PvP but is not really fair that with every new nerf im weaker and weaker on dungeons for example and PvE mainly. Who will invite to party thief which is now almost unusable on dungeons with glass HP and almost no damage? Now i have problem to find party for dungeon because 70% of ppl say that they are looking for every class except thief and problem will be higher when next nerf come. And its not only my fantasy. I know at least another 10 thieves who have same problem with finding party for dungeons. Nobody want invite to party class with no HP and no damage.

Arena dont see that they ruin thief both on PvP and PvE. Daggers are now only weapons for thief which deal decent damage. Other weapons like sword, pistols and bow are really very weak in compare with daggers and weapons of other classes. When you take decent damage of dagger, thief has no good weapons anymore and become most useless class on game.

Btw Arena was surely testing all classes long time before GW2 release and they should have seen all non-balance elements on all classes and balance it before game was released and not nerf one class now when many ppl have 80. level thieves with 100% explored maps, exotic sets, jumping puzzle…etc. Arena was sleeping during tests before release and now wake up and ruin all class. Its really unfair that Arena is “balancing” classes now 3 months after release of game. They should have done it before release when ppl was choosing class to play and not now after months of hard work. Arena you are not giving some choice to present 80. level thieves and force them to do ALL again which mean personal story again, leveling again, 30-40x dungeon again for exotic, 100% exploration of maps again…etc. Its not fair for us and 3 months work now mean nothing. Do you think its really right way of GW2? If you want ruin thief, give every thief free transfer to another class with all gear that thief now have, with all archievements, level…etc. Thieves have right to change their class if you completely ruin thief because its not our guilt that Arena now must “balance” this class. Its pure filth what Arena do with thieves.

Last one, why everybody is crying only about thief? You show here many screenshots with allegedly “op” thieves but nobody show here how powerful are other classes. Nobody show here for example how OP is mesmer now, how big damage can deal warrior with “hundred blades”. Warriors have much bigger damage than thieves, much more HP than thieves and much more variability of weapons than thief and only thieves akittenget of nerfes and QQ topics.

If you really want balance for thief class then must be balanced all parts of thief which mean buff pistols, buff bow, buff sword and total rework of poisons and traps for thief. Traps should be more powerfull because now almost nobody use it because traps are very weak and useless and same with poisons which should be on F2-Fx buttons. Thief is poison based class so poison should be somewhere else than on skill buttons which can be used for another better skills.

You want balance? So then balance all and not only nerf. You are speaking only only about nerf because you want some weak class to easy kill on PvP but balancing is not only about nerf but there are buffs too. Somewhere nerf and somewhere buff – its balancing.

Your reasoning make no sense for many reasons.

1. It isn’t sure that ArenaNet is going to nerf the thieves both in PvP and in PvE. All the complaining are coming in a PvP perspective, where class balancing comes out.
In Guild Wars, ArenaNet split skills in a PvP version and in a PvE version, to be balanced in PvP and not weak in PvE and they are doing the same thing in GW2.
Just take, for instance, the “Save Yourselves!” guardian shout, it has two different effects in PvP and in PvE.

2. ArenaNet never said it won’t be a buff to other spec, neither that there won’t be a buff to the PvE thief. So your complains comes from no real basis.

3. People are actually complaining about every profession which feels overpowered. There are bunch of complaints about Guardians and Mesmers, not so much about Warrior because they aren’t that strong. It’s just you that don’t see those complaints.

Runcore.5107:

Dear Arena, isnt easier remove complete thief class than still nerfing this nice class? You can completely remove it because after all these kids-cry-based nerfes thief will be useless with both: less HP and no damage. No more glass cannon class, only glass class.

I really dont understand why you made this game with thief on begin if you are now only ruining this class. Remove thief class! Its visible that Arena dont like this class and nerf thief when some kids cry on forum: “bueeee bueeee, some thief killed me, thief is OP, nerf please”. Dagger was/will be nerfed and bow and pistols are weak so what thief would use as weapon? All our weapons are or will be weak so why you made this class, Arena??? Is really nice that thief has some 2-3 seconds of stealth but what it is good for if we have (after all nerfes) almost no damage with all weapons?

From start of game is thief only target of nerfes, nerfes, nerfes. You could have said on start of game that you want during next 2-3 months make from thief poor wretch with no hp and damage and many ppl could choose another (now) better class. Its really not fair to present 80. level thieves that you make this class useless after their 2-3 months of hard work of leveling, exploring maps, crafting and collecting money for better gear.

I thought that GW2 is better than other multiplayer games and Arena is serious developer but I see that true is other. Arena is only puppet which dance on child-cry rhythm. Really i though that you are better but you are same like other mp games with crying forums.

Or, probably, the judgment of almost every high-level PvPer, almost all the community excluding thieves plus a minorance of thieves which actually like the class and want it to be challanging to play and not an insta-kill kitten and a crew of people who are balancing games since 10+ years ago is more reliable than yours and of the minority of thief players.
Then you’ll realize that the whiny kid it’s you and all those players who move along the FotM OP professions and don’t want to get their easy win method destroyed, so they are struggling against proper nerfs.

Thief was buffed to hell during the BWEs, so probably ANet doesn’t hate thieves, but they realized that they were overbuffed and need to be toned down.

bwillb.2165:

It is true, a thief can hit for 1k of backstab. With no traits, no gear and almost no weapon. Sad thing is that no thief runs with those things.

I, the target, was naked. The thief that killed me was not. I don’t know what kind of traits he was running, but he was definitely fully geared (probably in the default gear when you first enter pvp). It was a fringe case, to be sure, but so are the massive numbers people have been showing.

Let’s talk about average case then.
8k backstab, still, is too high.
Talking about average about a skill which, when traited, has 100% chance to crit, is not so useful.

bwillb.2165:

But the saddest thing is that originally Fear was presented as a Necromancer’s exclusive. Ah, the irony.

And stealth was presented as a Thief exclusive before they announced mesmers. We all get to share a little bit.

True. But at least, the mechanic that should have been an exclusive of your profession doesn’t play as an hard counter against you.
Necromancers have all 1s fears, the only 2s fear is the downed skill. Thieves, stealing from Necromancers, have 3s fear.

At least thieves’ stealth is the best around.

bwillb.2165:

Sabin.4590:

In WvW a thief hit me for 19k damage while stealthed which hit killed my mesmer. My mesmer is also a glass cannon build, but my biggest damage output is 4k. I Am lv 80 full exotics.

Warriors never did that to me, nor rangers, elementalists or necros. Just thieves.

Could you explain me in which way is the excuse “cannon glass build” a good argument for that situation?

in sPvP a thief hit me for a little over 1k with backstab. That’s One Thousand Damage. While I was naked. Without any traits spent or anything. And there was a video yesterday of a mesmer doing like 20k burst. Now what?

It is true, a thief can hit for 1k of backstab. With no traits, no gear and almost no weapon. Sad thing is that no thief runs with those things.

By the way, there is something wrong in that video or some sort of bug abusing. A mesmer can mantain up to 3 illusions, no more.

Kerishan.8460:

Really? Just search on youtube “backstab thief” and you’ll see an huge amount of 20k+ bursts in sPvP/tPvP.
Here’s one I’ve randomly found using that query and looking for most recent videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvH9IA97bzw

You have watched this video? In this video a glass cannon thief doesn’t hit more than 6K/7K and you wrote is simple to find a thief that hit hard for 20k?
It is impossible for a thief land a backstab for 20K NOW. Only on bunnies.

Did I say 20k backstab? I said 20k bursts, which is the combo of CnD+Mug+Backstab.

FrozenLuv.6017:

Xom.9264:

steal +3 seconds of fear GG.

This is misleading, thieves can only apply fear throw the Skull Fear steal skill, which can only be stolen from necros, therefore cannot be done on any other class

Please, do a little research before sprouting kitten

So, according to your reasoning, if I play a Necro I better run away or don’t play sPvP/tPvP at all if I see a thief coming in order to save all my team’s kitten
3 seconds are more, more than enough to burst down a Necro for a Thief.
But the saddest thing is that originally Fear was presented as a Necromancer’s exclusive. Ah, the irony.

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

It isn’t a matter of people who don’t bother to counter at all, it is a matter of people who CAN’T counter at all because of laggs, rendering issues and the incredible short time thieves’ burst take.

But that’s no different from the mesmer.

Nope, you have more than 5 seconds of warning of the burst coming, when mesmer is spamming his clones. You don’t have this with thieves.
Also, it isn’t affected by stealth rendering issues.

The mesmer burst is also very situational, because there is no real immobilization.

Absoltely not. The visual clue of backstab is almost non-existent,

Okay, feel free to believe that instead of trying harder.

Try what? Do I have to use the power of Force? See the real nature of things? Do I have to see not only with my eyes?

bwillb.2165:

if you use also the trait which puts you in stealth on steal, there is no visual clue at all.

I’ve not seen a single backstab-burst thief with that trait. It requires 20 points into shadow arts, which is a tree that is mostly useless for glass cannon thieves.

20-30-20-0-0
Here you have your burst glass cannon thief with also some survivability.
Oh, I gave you such a pro tip, shame on me

bwillb.2165:

So, list those way. I mean, hard counters, those kind of counters that don’t allow the thief to repeat that burst 3 seconds after.

No. Do your own research and experimenting. The counters are quite easy to pull off, if you know them you can do them, so just spouting them off would be saying “here’s every weakness I have” and that’s not very sportsmanlike. Ever played poker? A card shark playing against you isn’t going to tell you “When I rub my nose, it means I have good cards.”

That’s because there is no real counter, nothing can prevents a thief to repeat his burst if the first one failed.

Unload.
3 Unloads on full power/crit thief can deal up to 16k damage and leave you with every skill on recharge. Plus, it doesn’t use utility slots.

Aaaand you’re done talking.

Try Unload from yourself.

bwillb.2165:

Yup. Thieves aren’t the hardest class to play, but we certainly can’t afford to just hit every skill we have as soon as combat starts.

That’s true, you just need to hit 3 skill to get the same result.

bwillb.2165:

Same thing on thieves. Occasionally you’ll get a huge burst against someone who doesn’t bother to counter at all, other times it’s just average. The videos showing off thief burst are cherry-picked engagements.

It isn’t a matter of people who don’t bother to counter at all, it is a matter of people who CAN’T counter at all because of laggs, rendering issues and the incredible short time thieves’ burst take.

bwillb.2165:

The visual cue on backstab is slightly less obvious, I’ll give you that, but it’s still there if you’re observant.

Absoltely not. The visual clue of backstab is almost non-existent, if you use also the trait which puts you in stealth on steal, there is no visual clue at all.

bwillb.2165:

There are several ways to counter backstab and cut it down significantly (or completely) as well. And in those cases, the thief is left with everything on cooldown and little-to-no initiative.

So, list those way. I mean, hard counters, those kind of counters that don’t allow the thief to repeat that burst 3 seconds after.

bwillb.2165:

so are most of the Thief videos I’ve seen.

Really? Just search on youtube “backstab thief” and you’ll see an huge amount of 20k+ bursts in sPvP/tPvP.
Here’s one I’ve randomly found using that query and looking for most recent videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvH9IA97bzw

bwillb.2165:

Rfreak.6591:

@bwillb

Did we ever mention backstab?

We are refering to thieves damage/effort in general, which are already enough to prove what we are discussing

This whole thread was about the looming backstab nerf…
What thief skill can come anywhere near that mesmer burst other than backstab?

Unload.
3 Unloads on full power/crit thief can deal up to 16k damage and leave you with every skill on recharge. Plus, it doesn’t use utility slots.

bwillb.2165:

Look at the amount of skills and action he has to do to deal that burst

look at how many of those skills and actions were just face-rolling everything as soon as it came off of cooldown.

Still have to see any footage of any profession excluding thieves killing people in 1-2 seconds.

There was one a couple weeks ago of an engineer that could get people 100-0 in less than a second by timing projectiles to hit simultaneously.

Face rolling? Does it really come from a thief?
Anyway the burst well done was just one, in which no clone was killed and no dodge was used, the other ones were just average bursts. The visual sign of that burst is coming is obvious, all clones and phantasms rushing into your position -> dodge.
You can also use an AoE to kill all clones and cut down the burst to only 8k or less damage, which isn’t enough to kill any player, then the Mesmer has every skill on cooldown and no way to escape (= dead).

The Engineer footage was done in WvWvW against leveled up people, not worth mentioning.

PS: obviously this doesn’t mean Mesmer needs some work too.

Kerishan.8460:

Maybe you don’t realize how other classes can be powerful because you don’t see such a high damage in 1 number (like backstab), but actually they are.

Here an example of how a burst mesmer can do 16K in few seconds (or istantly) – watch at 0.25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wJWYncz5gUE

Blurried Frenzy: 6624
Shatters: 2700 for each x 4 = 10800

Look at the amount of skills and action he has to do to deal that burst and see how many visual clues there are that this burst is coming.
Thieves can deal that damage in half the time, half the skills, no preparation and almost no visual clue. Bad comparison.

Still have to see any footage of any profession excluding thieves killing people in 1-2 seconds.

Jack of Tears.9458:

>>Hellfish said: “The thief is the most overpowered class I’ve ever seen in any MMO and I’ve been playing since the late 90s.”<<

I don’ believe that, but even if it were true, imagine what it would do to the PvE Thieves … they gotta make a livin’ too, ya know.

That’s why some skills have different effects in PvE and PvP. It was like that in GW1 and I think they are going to use the same method in GW2.

bwillb.2165:

No, I’m saying that the amount of skill required by the caster is affected by the skill of the target. If the target is bad, the combo doesn’t require much skill. No combo requires all that much skill if the target isn’t actively trying to counter it. However, If the target is good, the combo requires a lot of skill.

This isn’t that true.
The amount of skill required to counter that combo is way higher to the amount of skills required to perform it nicely.
If balance is fine, the amount of skill required to afford the combo should be exactly the same to the amount of skill required to avoid that combo.

You requires lighting reflexes to counter this insta-death combo but what does the thief needs in terms of efforts to perform it? Absolutely nothing.

Just take the Elementalist, for instance. They can kill people, of course, but they have to use the right skills in the right time to succed and the amount of skills required to survive to an elementalist is just the same to the amount of skills required to survive to him.

Also a combo that ends a fight in 2 seconds shouldn’t be in this game and you can imagine why.

“Watch out, a Thief is coming!”

bwillb.2165:

The effort to create this combo is proportional to the skill of the target, with an even matching at the midrange. That is, bad targets are extremely easy to hit with it, average targets are about evenly matched, and skilled targets are extremely hard to hit with it. This is the kind of matching that tactical balance should be going for. Before the basilisk venom nerf you’d be a little more correct, but right now, nothing the thief does is without a reactionary counter. The only REAL problem with the build is the rendering/culling issue, and that’s supposedly being fixed in the next update.

So, as you are saying, the effectiveness of the combo rely only on the target’s skill but not on the caster’s skill. Is this balanced in your opinion?
Of course there are people who can avoid the combo, but you can’t negate that no brain is required to perform that combo and in a competitive environment this isn’t acceptable.

Shizzlenit.7648:

A thief chasing you with heartseeker wont be able to CnD because he has no more Initiative. So he cant restealth -> he cant backstab.

Also EVERY thief is running the +25% passive which makes +33% in stealth useless.

Edit: Just to make that clear, everything i post is based on my WvW experience. I dont play sPvP so i cannot comment on that.

One Heartseeker is more than enough to close the gap, the rest of job is done by the +25% passive speed which every thief is running, as you said.
So, with one Heartseeker, you still have 9 initiative left, which are more than enough to CnD a target.

Shizzlenit.7648:

@sorrow

Im not talking about the insta gib which is unavoidable (well not completely, basi venom has been nerfed already you can break it now) but it is very hard i agree. But im all for a nerf for this combo since the window to react is way too small and if u fail reacting ure instantly dead.

When the thief goes in stealth you can very well predict where he is because you know where he is heading to -> behind you. And im not talking about dodging the actual backstab, im talking about getting distance so hes unable to backstab you before his stealth runs out. And he has to use the fastest way to get behind you because the stealth doesnt last long. Just because you cant see doesnt mean he isnt there, you can 90% of the time guess where he is because you can predict which way he HAS to take, otherwise he wont be able to land his backstab.

What you wanna do against a pure backstab thief is kiting, you want to kite him all day so he cannot restealth (CnD) and if he cannot restealth he cant backstab. Of course he has some utility which grants him stealth (Blinding Powder for example) but these have a long cooldown.

Kiting is not an option at all if you consider the cheap leap thieves have as skill 2 on Dagger, so it isn’t that a problem for thieves.

There is a trait on acrobatics, tier 1, Fleet Shadow, which grants you +33% movement speed while stealthed. I know most thieves put everything in offensive attributes but that trait makes all kiting useless when stealthed. Plus you have swiftness on dodge, so..
Also take into account that, due to rendering issues and laggs, the time between CnD and Backstab is minimal and, in most the case, you haven’t enough time to realize the thief vanished when the Backstab comes. Plus, there is Devourer Venom which helps you to land your Backstab if you have problems with.

See, avoiding a backstab isn’t that easy. Considering the damage it does, avoiding it should be way, way easier, as other heavy damage skills are.

Shizzlenit.7648:

@sorrow

But i wreck backstab thief on my thief because i know how their build operates. I know when i have to get distance to him because i know when hes going to backstab. It is very easy to avoid when u know how the build operates. I’m playing the build for several hundreds of hours thats why i know it.

Most people i face in WvW just stand still and let me spam backstab because they’re clueless how to deal with it which is understandable, the game is new and you can’t know every counter to a specific build yet or how you have to position urself. But once you do it’s not that hard to avoid.

You can’t know when he is going to backstab at all.
First, because the Steal+CnD+Backstab combo is almost instant, secondly because once the thief goes in stealth, there are 3 seconds (4 if traited) when you have no clue of where the thief is and where you have to point your back.
You can dodge, of course, and maybe you can be lucky enough to dodge at the right time when the backstab is coming, but then, you resolved almost nothing because the thief has no revealed cooldown, he uses CnD again and you are in the same situation. You can be lucky once, but not twice.

Anyway, saying that you can counter thieves using a thief doesn’t help the argument.

bwillb.2165:

sorrow.2364:

Backstab should be at 4k damage on tanky people, which is hell high when considering that it has almost no casting time and a potential external cooldown of 3-4 seconds, and max 6k on squishy targets. Also Mug should deal AT MAXIMUM 2k damage (without considering heavy damage boosting traits).

That’s about how it is already (well, closer to 3k and 5k without assassin’s signet and might stacks). And then backstab does double damage if you put in the effort to fulfill its positioning requirement (which isn’t particularly easy, no matter how much nerf herders will tell you that you can just spam full damage backstabs)
What other class requires having a 3-4 second buff up to be able to do ANY damage with their primary damage skill, and requires proper positioning on top of that to be able to do decent damage?

I meant a Backstab on the back, of course.
Anyway, the efforts to pop out that damage is too low. That buff is easily accessible to any D/D thief and proper positioning is also easy to get when considering that most the thieves are running with immobilize venom.

The prize of having good positioning and a buff to deal that damage consists in that you aren’t exposed because of high channeling or building up adrenaline or something like that in order to deal that damage and the casting time is almost instant. There shouldn’t be also a prize on the damage amount.

Shizzlenit.7648:

But backstab is only spamable to an extent. Its not like i can dish out 4-5 backstabs without taking any damage at all. (and we cant take much damage). Also it takes a lot of time to land that many backstabs since we have a cooldown before we can go back to stealth again.
And it is not that easy to land a backstab on good players who know how to evade it. I have to be in stealth and i have to be behind my target… all that effort for 4k damage? I would be better off with auto attacking. And this is not even considering different ways to block it, like the warrior has… or the Guardian… half of my backstabs are missing on a guardian because he has so many ways to block it…
It’s probably very hard for the developers to find the right middle ground because you completely demolish people who dont know how to deal with the constant stealth + backstab but you have a hard time against people who do know how to deal with it.
I’m all for a nerf to the insta kill build the thief has. (Steal + CnD + Backstab + Assa Signet + Basi Venom). But it has to be nerfed in a way that it doesnt completely kill builds that dont use this combo, but still mainly make use of backstab.

I know you have have a cooldown before you can go in stealth again, but it is only 3 seconds. So, you can theorically use backstab every 4-5 seconds. Considering the high damage it does and the instant casting time, it isn’t that balanced.

You can sure do autoattacking, but when you are autoattacking you actually take more time and you are exposed for that period of time. I don’t know why you feel bad about autoattacking, it should be a consistent part of your fights, not only a placeholder skill chain.

There aren’t people who really knows how to deal with Backstab, it is just a matter of luck. You can avoid the first backstab, sure, but you won’t avoid the second one, mostly because the only way to avoid the first backstab is to cast a blocking/AoE CC skill, both are in a very high cooldown. Consider also that if you miss the first backstab, you are not tied to the 3s stealth cooldown, so you can go in stealth again in a matter of seconds with CnD.
Dodge can’t be considered as a counter, because you have no real clue of when the thief is going to hit you with backstab, plus you have no idea of where the thief is most the time when stealthed, so dodging a backstab is just a matter of luck.

I main as a Necromancer and, as a Necromancer, the only ways to counter a backstab are:
1. Tank the damage in Death Shroud. You can’t use that counter in every situation because Life Force is hard to build and melts down really quicky. Also if you tank one backstab, it is a matter of 5 seconds that another one is landing on your back but, this time, you won’t have any LF left.
2. Casting Reaper Mark on the ground. It can work for just one time, then the thief can attempt to backstabbing you again without the 3 seconds cooldown of Revealed.
3. Using Well of Darkness. It has an huge cooldown and lasts only 5 seconds. Plus, thieves if they don’t land backstab can still go in stealth again without cooldown so you aren’t actually avoiding backstab, just kittending it.

You can see that the counters to backstab are only 3, all those counters aren’t that effective and they are very situational.

Also, it is just fine that you have an hard time against people who knows how to deal Backstab but, right now, you haven’t any hard time at all, against everyone.

Ichishi.9613:

man you mad? pistol shot 1 crits for 2k and you want heavy investment abilities to hit same?

1. Pistol shot crits at maximum for 1k, without considering all damage boosting traits.
2. You define Mug heavy investment ability? Really?

Shizzlenit.7648:

Cap backstab damage to 8-10k or something

all problems solved.

I’m using a backstab build which isnt all damage based (i do around 8k backstabs MAX and around 6k on tankier people. 10k on low lvls) which would be useless if you nerf the raw damage of it.

Please dont nerf builds that dont insta gib people !

Backstab should be at 4k damage on tanky people, which is hell high when considering that it has almost no casting time and a potential external cooldown of 3-4 seconds, and max 6k on squishy targets. Also Mug should deal AT MAXIMUM 2k damage (without considering heavy damage boosting traits).

If Backstab has the damage it has now, it still will be OP considering that thieves have also that lovely skill called Heartseeker. Right now thieves don’t need Heartseeker due to the ridiculous damage of Backstab and Mug, but if Backstab and Mug doesn’t get an huge nerf to raw damage, than the situation would be the same, excluding that thieves needs to use one heartseeker to finish the target down.

Asum.4960:

sorrow.2364:

Well, if I’m not wrong, Thieves had buffs over and over during BWE and now they are overbuffed and need to be toned down.

Trust me, all your weapon sets are amazing, just D/D is outstanding in its opness.
I main as a Necro and now I’m equally divided between Necro and Thief, the damage of P/P that you folks consider as underpar is really good.

Well of course the Necro has lower dmg than Thief.

The Necro has twice as much base HP plus a second health bar in death shroud, added to tons of utility with con removals, heals, buffs and debuffs.

Thief has dmg and stealth.

D/D isn’t outstanding, it’s the only thing that keeps Thief on par with Warriors, Engeneers and Mesmers (not even really that) dmg wise.

Don’t take into account the life thief has.
Both Guardians and Thieves have low vitality to compensate their incredible defensive capability.
Guardians have heavy armor, defensive boons and blocks.
Thieves have stealth, loads of evade and great mobility to get out of fights.

Necromancers, compared to thieves, have almost no way to get out of fights, have no stability at all, have no stealth and almost no protection. Same thing is about Warriors. To compensate the lack of defensive capability they have high health pool.

Thieves also have tons of utility, your Hide in Shadows and Withdraw heals and cure conditions, Shadowstep cures conditions, Shadow Return cures conditions, Shadow’s Embrace cures conditions.. Also, you have access to tons of conditions due to autoattack + venoms, plus you have tons of heals tanks to stealth and its traits.

The outstanding damage of thieves have no excuses.

You will never be on par with warrior when you have stealth.

sorrow.2364:

Are you serious?
You mean 2k with autoattack or 2k with unload?
I deal 5k+ damage with Unload without putting any point on Deathly Arts traitline and I can use it 3 times in a row. Total: 15k damage on a 900 range. If this is bad in your opinion, I don’t know what’s good for you.

Unload spam? That dodge button.

/E:
And btw, yes, it is bad.
Engeneer can do 20k+ dmg in 1 second on 1500 range[/quote]
Oh, well, you have 2 dodges, you know. Also if you dodge 2 unloads (which in most cases won’t happen, don’t forget not all the situations are 1vs1), you can’t dodge the third.

You have Cluster Bomb to make huge damage at range. Btw I still have to see an Engineer which do 20k+ damage in 1 second on 1500 range.

BabelFish.7234:

2k on unload. If I crit 3k. If I switch to S/P I can Pistol Whip for 5k easily.

Power: 1735
Prec: 1643
Tough: 1272
Vit: 1239

Attack: 2663
Crit: 39%
Armor: 2197
Health: 14035

PW is closed range, don’t take it into account.

Power: 1839
Precision: 2025
Toughness: 1216
Vitality: 1245

Attack: 2868
Critical Chance: 57%
Armor: 2280
Health: 15,095
Critical Damage: 58%

I deal at least 4k damage on Heavy golem. More if critical. All this without taking into account the +20% damage on <50% health targets.

@Gryph: the only reason someone could use Axe is for 3 skill. 1 and 2 is just trash, the damage is awful and they have no effect it is worth using other than damage.
Since Necros have awful traitlines, Axe needs a huge buff damage wise, almost double the damage to the autoattack and half the damage to Ghastly Claws to be viable.

Kurow.6973:

According to you, backstab takes no skill right now. You must be high. Backstab takes the most skill to execute its full potential amongst all the available skills in the game right now.

This made me laugh.
I mean, laugh hard, really hard.
I think you have no clue of what professions/weapon combos actually requires skill in this game. I can be a pro backstabber thief with just half an hour or less of gameplay.

Are you serious?
You mean 2k with autoattack or 2k with unload?
I deal 5k+ damage with Unload without putting any point on Deathly Arts traitline and I can use it 3 times in a row. Total: 15k damage on a 900 range. If this is bad in your opinion, I don’t know what’s good for you.

Are you guys serious? Flanking Strike is amazing, it litteraly melts down Guardians… But, you know, every thief now is enjoying the opness of BS and has no time to try out other weapon sets.

Well, if I’m not wrong, Thieves had buffs over and over during BWE and now they are overbuffed and need to be toned down.

Trust me, all your weapon sets are amazing, just D/D is outstanding in its opness.
I main as a Necro and now I’m equally divided between Necro and Thief, the damage of P/P that you folks consider as underpar is really good.

Oh please, guys.
6k-3k-3k of almost instant damage on a full toughness character is out of any balance. I know that you guys want to keep getting easy kills and easy wins with your broken profession, but it comes a time when things have to be fixed, live with that.

The time you need to get better at your profession as you are suggesting to everyone else is coming.

“guys, watch out for the Necro, kill him first!”