Guild Wars 2

Zid.4196:

You are welcomed to argue, but you don’t get to silence people by lashing out about “spvp”. As I said, if you want a thread locked to spvp discussion, there’s a forum for that.

And since you are still here, you might as well learn something. In WvW, you are free to change weapons, utilities, and elites when out of combat, and that’s plenty. In the off-peak hours, which are just as important to scoring as the primetime, it’s a standard scenario to notice an opponent with plenty of time to change skills before the 1v1. In these hours when small gank pvp decides the color of the map in the morning, possibly wiping all the hardworking upgrades of the primetime, the Moa is a powerful skill.

But as powerful as it is, it has only mattered in a tiny % of the small gank engagements. The vast majority of the engagements I win because people wouldn’t have the first idea how to fight a mesmer.

I’ve never seen nerf QQ for the #1 reason I win 1v1s, but I once saw a “this is too weak” QQ. The Moa won’t cut into the top 10 reasons I win, and that’s before calculating in its high alternative cost.

Now, maybe everyone in spvp has mad skillz and Moa is your only weakness of your otherwise flawless gameplay of burst/block/reflect/dodge, but I doubt it. The Moa is a convenient scapegoat because it is demeaning, but a scapegoat nonetheless.

I said before that he made a consideration that was out of topic.

I’m not answering your statements because you are missing the meaning of the word overpowered as many people do here, so it will be a loss of time. You are arguing about something that isn’t in the topic.
You have to compare Moa effectiveness in the whole contest of every skills’ effectiveness, not to the reasons that make you win fights.

Traverse.2315:

1) Actually Warriors only have 1 blast finisher, one whirl finisher, and 1 leap finisher, in addition to the fact that they put no combo fields down. Compare that to an Elementalist bunker who can put down multiple combo fields AND finish them multiple times. Even a Guardian can put down multiple fields and finish them. Either way combo finishers aren’t useful if you have no combo fields!

2) The problem with balanced state is that it’s not a shout. The best bunker build (IMO) uses shouts to heal. If you give up one of your core heals, there’s no way you’re going to last as long. And comparing a bunker warrior to a necromancer is not the best comparison: their roles in battle are far different.

3) While endure pain is good, yes, it doesn’t synergize well with a bunker build. Again because it’s a stance and not a shout. In addition the lack of protection is 33% more damage taken at all times. That’s why they are subpar.

Honestly I don’t think a pure bunker Warrior is really that viable. However, like some have mentioned, a tanky-DPS warrior certain can work.The problem is getting it to fit in with the rest of the team.

1) They have much more finishers.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_Finisher
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirl_Finisher
Plus, consider that you are not supposed to play alone. They are called cross professions combos for a reason! xP Most of the time, if you are playing with a caster, you will have a combo field on the ground to exploit.

2) Well, ArenaNet said that every professions should match any role. If it doesn’t happens, it is a balancing problem. Also, Stability is useful to all professions, doesn’t matter their role, because it can save your life against stunlocker build that are around in this meta. I’m criticizing the fact that you gave the same points to Necromancer and Warrior which is, in my opinion, out of this world.

3) They are subpar compared to Guardians, which is well know that they need some tweaks. But if you compare Warriors to other professions, they are way better at any role. Also, having full damage cancellation for a short period of time is way more useful that having a 33% constant damage reductions. There are too much spike builds around (100b, PW, Backstab), so the right timing can save your life much more than having a constant damage reduction.

Traverse.2315:

Schwahrheit.4203:

Hammer can’t sustain? More like you fail to build a Warrior correctly whether its offensive-wise or defensive-wise, no offense. Would be nice if GW2 made a legit ELO system where it actually shows player skill. Then we’ll know whether whatever the guy is saying is legit.

P.S Just shows, everyone who calls Warrior a bad class have 3 simple trends going on for them.

1.) They do not have the decency to get good at this game.
2.) They probably don’t even play Warrior, yet they are still talking. Like just because you get wrecked by Thief 24/7, doesn’t mean Roam Warrior is worse than Thief. Seriously I bet this guy doesn’t know how to combo HB without Bulls Charge.
3.) They have zero clue on how to build. Bunker Warrior can’t sustain LMAO, just proves my point. Its a learn to play issue.

Keep talking though, I’d like to see Warrior get buffed. And then nerfed because that’s how this community is.

Feel free to disagree with me, but when you do at least give me reasons why. You say bunker Warrior can sustain, but you don’t tell me why they can. Here’s why I think they are not as good as the other bunker professions:

1) No combo fields.
Combo fields, if only used by yourself, are an essential component to any bunker build. For a Guardian, it gives group retaliation, and for the Elementalist, it gives group healing, chill armor, and swiftness. You can also stack 25 stacks of might (with the help of your teammates) before the game to give that edge in the first team fight.

2) Lack of stability.
The best source of stability for the warrior is balanced state. But that only gives warriors themselves stability. Plus it’s on a 40 second cooldown, 10 seconds longer than a Guardian’s Stand Your Ground, which is a far better skill, applying both stability and retaliation in an AoE. While a staff Elementalist also does not have group stability, they still have an edge with 2 sources of stability for themselves without having to sacrifice a key spell (which you would have to do to get balanced state)

3) Subpar damage mitigation
Compared to an Elementalist or a Guardian, the Warrior doesn’t have nearly as many options to mitigate damage. They have no internal source of protection, a key defensive boon, while Elementalists and Guardians have easy access to it. On top of that, the only immunity spell that a Warrior has is endure pain, which, if you take, removes a key heal and condition removal from your arsenal. While some Guardian builds do have immunity, almost every guardian runs with Sanctuary, which is essentially 6 seconds of not being hit. Hammer warriors are easily taken down in a 1v2 situation.

But if you have a build to show me that rectifies these problems, or a playstyle that avoids these issues, by all means prove me wrong. But mudslinging won’t get you anywhere.

As for Warrior roaming, yes I have played it. First with Axe/Shield and Greatsword, then with Mace/Shield and Greatsword. Warriors don’t get beat by Thieves very often, I never said that. The problem with Warriors is that their damage is too predictable, and they have little ways to disengage. For a Thief, if he goes to neutralize an undefended node, and 2 people fall back to stop him, he can just stealth away, effectively deterring the enemy and reducing their points. However a Warrior would be forced to engage them and then die. Sure a Warrior may last a few seconds longer in combat, but does that make them a better roaming profession? In my opinion, no.

1) That’s true, they haven’t so much combo fields, just one with Longbow, but they have loads of combo finishers and combo finishers are way more useful than combo fields.

2) Warrior have an istant skill that grants stability, isn’t that enough? Again, I use Necomancers as example, they have no stability at all. The only stability they have is a 3 second stability when entering Death Shroud from a grandmaster trait of Soul Reaping.

3) Endure Pain is an awesome defensive skill some professions doesn’t even have one, also the Defense trait of Warrior is an awesome combo of Toughness and Healing power. Plus they have some blocking skills with their offhand weapons. I fell that stating that warrior defenses are subpar is pretty wrong.

Ryuujin.8236:

In Allods online people used to tell me some of the psion skills were too powerful and I shouldn’t use them in a duel. My response was always “I won’t use my illusions if you don’t use a sword”.

If a skill bothers you so much then submit a suggestion to anet through the appropriate channels. just don’t come to the forum of the class you’re kittening about and expect us to be happy with it.

Oh god. This isn’t the Mesmer’s cave. This is a forum section regarding mesmers, where game designers read topics and obtain feedback. This is the right channel to talk about a profession and their skills. If you don’t feel happy with this discussion, don’t read it, don’t answer it and go in an unofficial mesmer forum to be happy with your mesmer friends.

Ryuujin.8236:

sorrow.2364:

What we are saying is that Moa Morph needs to be wiped out and replaced with another skill or it needs an huge nerf.

So if a skill is proving too strong in sPvP, we should also nerf it in WvW, tournement play, PvE and single player instances… and people who play those other 4 game modes (Which make up the vast majority of the players), should kindly sit down and shut up while players who don’t even play mesmer, dictate their future?

With sPvP I mean also tPvP.

Are you sure that I don’t play mesmer?
Are you using Moa Morph in WvW or PvE? Will you care if you won’t have Moa Morph in PvE or WvW anymore?
The only game mode in which Moa Morph can be used is in sPvP (tPvP) and it is extremely powerful in that mode. That’s what the op is trying to say, that skill should never be existed. Is that too hard to understand?

Zid.4196:

The fact you fail to grasp is this is the mesmer public forum, and when people feel they have something to add to a mesmer discussion, they can do so, and you have to respect their right instead of lashing out in verbal attacks.

Again, if you want to lock a discussion to spvp only, there’s a forum for that, it has plenty of thief-only or whatever-only threads already.

So in a Mesmer specific forum I can’t argue about a Mesmer specific skill’s application because of what?
If this topic is in the wrong section, than it would be moved to the right section by a moderator and, since the topic is still here, it is in the right section.

What I’m trying to say is that stating that Moa Morph isn’t that strong in WvWvW and PvE, but it is ground breaking in sPvP, isn’t a valid argument and it doesn’t belong to this topic.

Why they dumped all the fantastic things that made Guild Wars as one of the best PvP game ever?
I mean, combat system is fine, the new skill system is awesome… Put these thing in the Guild Wars PvP game modes, wiping out also the downed system (which is fine in PvE, but no-sense in PvP), and you have the best PvP game in the market.

Zid.4196:

sorrow.2364:

You are talking about PvE and WvWvW, this topic isn’t for you. We are talking about sPvP and in particular about Moa Morph.

This is the Mesmer forum, not the spvp forum. If you have a problem with that, feel free to stick to the spvp forum and not post here.

In fact this topic is about Mesmers, not sPvP in general.
We are talking about Moa Morph (which is a Mesmer skill!) when used in sPvP, which is the only game mode when this skill is going to be used.
If we are saying that Moa Morph is OP in sPvP, it is plain stupid to say “hey, in WvWvW and PvE that skill is useless, so it isn’t op!”. What we are saying is that Moa Morph needs to be wiped out and replaced with another skill or it needs an huge nerf.

Ryuujin.8236:

Infigher.3950:

I play a Mesmer and I’m having a hard time believing people are actually defending Moa Morph.

It’s a matter of principle. Don’t you ever get fed up with the constant stream of bad players coming to our forum, telling you that you need to be nerfed. When you’re running about Orr, struggling to get tags on kills, performing 10-20 attack chains with wrist-damage inducing speed that warriors can destroy simply by rolling their face across the keyboard. just because some guy in an sPvP matched bruised a guy’s ego by turning him into a chicken?

And let’s not forget the vast majority of people who try mesmer, give up because it’s probably the singularly hardest class to play, and for that reason is also one of the least played classes?

It’s not the class that’s OP. it’s the players… if a warrior can play by rolling his face, and a thief can play by learning one combo that insta-kills then naturally those classes also attract the really bad players. Conversely a class like mesmer with such a cliff-like learning curve tends to attract very few, resulting in this impression that mesmers are OP because the very fact you’re looking at a high level mesmer (especially in WvW or PvE), immediatly precludes the possibility they’re a BAD player. Bad mesmers don’t usually get much beyond lvl 30

You are talking about PvE and WvWvW, this topic isn’t for you. We are talking about sPvP and in particular about Moa Morph. Did you read the op before posting this? If you did, how can you didn’t realize that this topic is about sPvP? I don’t care if mersmers in WvWvW or PvE are few, in sPvP they are almost 40% of the player base. Also, Moa Morph is a skill that has its only application in sPvP/tPvP, none is going to use it in WvWvW or PvE and in sPvP/tPvp is incredibly unbalanced.

Also that Mesmers are hard to play it’s your opinion. Have you tried Necromancers or Elementalists? Looks like you didn’t.

Qtin.6940:

Keep in mind that this is a game without a subscription fee so you’ll have to wait 1 or 2 months between every patch.

That’s not true.
Patch are coming one per week… Also in Guild Wars 2 big balancing patch came one per month.

Jungle Quack.1368:

sorrow.2364:

This is an answer to what? Moa counter? If so, exactly, how can I know when to use my dodge, daze, kd, launch, stun or interrupt when the caster is stealthed? Try the luck? Spam my dazes in the air? Oh, and don’t forget that you can’t even realize that the Mesmer is actually stealthed, because there are surely a bunch of his copies around!

Ctrl + T

Maybe you should actually learn some of the basic aspects of the game before you complain how you cant deal with one skill.

And just so you understand what an OP skill is, the slyvari racial skill Grasping Vines during BWE3 was originally an AoE spell that both immobilized and did DoT for an extended period, with a very short CD. Disabling one person for 10 seconds with an Elite skill w/ 180 second CD that can be dodged, blocked or interrupted with little effort is not by any means OP.

Uh, what?
YOU should learn some basics before saying bs. Did you know that you lose target when the targeted player stealths? Guess what Decoy does!

Oh, wait, so a skill that allows you to use utilities, skills, stunbreakers, invulnerabilities, heals and can be easily countered by destroying the vines in about 2-3 seconds and of course can’t be used in sPvP is OP? Have you a clue of what overpowered means?

Most of players agree. There are bunch of topics about Arenas here and in Suggestion forum.

I was asking myself how to spam Heartseeker more effectively. I really needed a guide for that, thanks!

Jungle Quack.1368:

Every single prof has skills that kd, launch, daze or otherwise interrupt. Failing that everyone has the ability to double tap a movement key for a dodge.

If you can’t figure out how to utilize these skill properly, the failure is on you.

This is an answer to what? Moa counter? If so, exactly, how can I know when to use my dodge, daze, kd, launch, stun or interrupt when the caster is stealthed? Try the luck? Spam my dazes in the air? Oh, and don’t forget that you can’t even realize that the Mesmer is actually stealthed, because there are surely a bunch of his copies around!

ConterK.3972:

sorrow.2364:

What is the skill required to cast a Moa? Everyone can do this.

You know what else everyone can do?
complain, complain, make threads and complain some more
instead of actually playing and finding a way to counter the stuff they complain about!

I’ve failed to find a way to effectively counter Moa.
Can you please be so kind to explain me how to counter that skill?

I mean, if a Mesmer uses Decoy and then he casts Moa while in Decoy, what is an effective way to counter it? Please, I really need to know that.

Booya.6127:

tluv.5821:

Here is the thing though, me, playing a necro, once your high damage outputs our down, before I could even hit my healing skill, I’m dead. That shouldn’t happen. Not at all. It shouldn’t be, before I even get a chance to heal, when I got the drop on him, that I’m dead. So I have to start my healing casting time BEFORE he even attacks?

I can’t really understand how you manage to die that fast as a necro. It sounds like you’re not taking advantage of necro’s strengths at all, you have the highest health pool in the game + a profession mechanic that literally acts as an extra health bar. If you go all out glass cannon, of course you’re probably gonna get wrecked by someone who picks the stealthy assassin burst class and builds them in a way that specifically takes advantage of glass cannons, although I’m struggling to think of just how or why you would be THAT glass cannon on a necro.

This man says the truth.
As a Necro you die a bit slower than other professions thanks to Death Shroud.

Jungle Quack.1368:

sorrow.2364:

Guess why people are also complaining about Guardians? Saying that there is another OP profession isn’t a valid argument. Also, Guardians need to use utility/weapon skills to do the job Moa does in just 1 skill. Bar compression is another cool feature that makes Moa OP.

So your argument it that if someone complains about it, it MUST be OP. Wow, according to these forums that would make every single profession OP. Chances are that these professions are all pretty well balanced, and the people who are complaining are just bad players.

Seriously? Explain me why the complains about Mesmer/Thief/Guardians are way more than the other professions. No one complains about Ranger (except Shortbow bleed spamming build), no one complains about Elementalist, no one complains about Necromancers, very few people complains about Engineer. There should be a reason behind this.

Jungle Quack.1368:

As I have said before, I have played plenty of PvP with other classes, and never ONCE had Moa drastically change the outcome of a fight. The times I have been hit by it once I see the mesmer casting is around 10-15% of the time. Which means the only times I really worry about it is when a mesmer gets the drop me, which in reality is not much different from any class getting the drop on me. They are ALL capable of dealing considerable damage before I can react.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

You can cure these.

Moa is un-cureable.

After being hit, there is very little you can do to improve your situation other than to use up your endurance dodging attacks, and attempt to run away.

If you bothered to actually look at the skills listed, most of those can’t be cured, and the other two are parts of some pretty hefty hex builds, which being on the receiving end is enough to shut you down permanently, not just for 10 measly seconds.

Just 2 of them can’t be cured (Blackout and Shroud of Silence), which are similiar to Moa, but they are touch skills (close range), Blackout disables all your skills for 5 seconds (for 5-6 seconds of disable on enemy) and Shoud of Silence only lasts 3 seconds max.
Hex I’ve listed are all curable by a monk and, also, they doesn’t block yours attack at all, but they just deal some damage if you attack (what mesmers actually do with confusion). The other ones that can’t be cured are just influencing the recharge of 1 skill and are interrupts, so the caster actually requires timing and skill to get one skill on recharging for +20 seconds about. What is the skill required to cast a Moa? Everyone can do this.

R E F L H E X.8413:

It’s an elite skill.

I guess you guys haven’t played other games where the control class (wow mesmer actually has A CONTROL skill, what a surprise, they should have a lot more control, but they got one decent one that takes forever to activate) has very similar skills (rift has moa morph I think it was called and did the exact same thing).

This is not Rift.
This game was made by the same guys who made Guild Wars, did you know?
There was control also in Guild Wars, but do you want to see some control skill of Guild Wars?
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shroud_of_Silence
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blackout
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Migraine_
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Power_Block
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Psychic_Distraction
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Visions_of_Regret_

Most of them works on recharge and energy, but consider that most the professions have at least 20 energy and regenerates 4 energy every 3 seconds. Players had about 500 hp.

When do you see a skill that is the same as Moa kitten? Do you see something that is as game breaking as Moa?
One thing is control, another thing is opness.
These skills were widely used in PvP by Mesmers (except one that is a sin’s skill) and, in fact, playing mesmer required some skills at that time to be played effective and make a difference.

Carighan.6758:

Well, it cancels out Transformations and Summons, but considering the second part that is probably a bug or unwanted side effect of the transform. It makes no sense it’d cancel summons, since other such disabling effects don’t.

Considering it as a pure Daze for a moment, yes, a 10s Daze is powerful. But I don’t see it as ground breaking powerful comparing it’s power in sPvP compared to say, Time Warp or Supply Drop or Book of healing ALL the things in WvW.

Not saying that it isn’t too strong (or others too weak, since we don’t know whether devs want Elites to have as large a game changing effect as the most powerful elites currently do, or whether they want them to be as weak as Golem Suit, Basilisk Venom or Become The Raven), or weak, or whatever, but it’s hardly the only completely game-changing elite. Sure, maybe it’s the strongest in sPvP (I honestly couldn’t actually care any less about that game mode, unless maybe they make it cost money per match… looks at tournament tickets… nevermind), but others are extremely strong in WvW. I fail to see what singles Moa out.

That it cancels other effects, that is ofc something which needs changing, but as said above it sounds more like a bug or technical limitation than an intended effect.

Moa wipes out all your skills, that’s because it cancel at the summons.

You won’t anyway use Moa in WvWvW, neither in PvE. The only application for that skill si sPvP and it is way overpowered in that game mode, that’s because you guys think that Moa is ok. sPvP is a gamemode, also very important because some people only play that mode, if you don’t like it, it doesn’t mean that Moa isn’t unbalanced (tournaments ticket actually spawns in PvP chest, I’ve 30 of them without paying one cent). Also the profession opness is way more visible when you are in sPvP, because in WvWvW and PvE there is too much chaos to actually realize what killed you and what skill was the first contributor.

Jungle Quack.1368:

…. Your opinions speak to your ignorance. A good build for a Guardian can keep a person flat on their back for just as long as Moa “dazes” them, and doesn’t even need an elite (or the CD time that comes with it) to do so. And that’s just one example of many.

Guess why people are also complaining about Guardians? Saying that there is another OP profession isn’t a valid argument. Also, Guardians need to use utility/weapon skills to do the job Moa does in just 1 skill. Bar compression is another cool feature that makes Moa OP.

Carighan.6758:

If I ask you for why a 10s Daze is overpowered, you’ll grasp for straws.

So, here goes:
Why do you consider it unbalanced?

Do you want to know why 10s Daze is OP? Because none can archieve this in one skill. Daze is a incredibly powerful condition, that’s because most the times it only lasts 2 seconds.
Moa is equivalent to a 10 seconds of daze, which is unarchievable by any other profession also focusing all build in it, plus it wipes all pets, cancel all transformations and makes some build totally useless all this in one single skill. This skill makes a real difference in a fight when used and can turns a lost fight in a win, no other skill do that.

You are losing an 1vs1 fight? What’s the problem? Decoy+Moa and you won. Tell me which skill has the same “I win” effect.

Enemy point holder is too tough to kill? No problem. (Decoy) Moa and you get that point. Tell me which skill has the same “I win” effect.

You are in difficulties in a 2vs2 fight? Turn it in a 2vs1 with your Moa Morph! Tell me which skill reverse the situation like Moa does.

The enemy outnumbers you in a 2vs3 fight? Make the match fair for 10 seconds (more than enough to put someone down) with your Moa Morph! Tell me which skill reverse the situation like Moa does.

Your enemy became a big green Lich, a smelly plague cloud or he has too many pets summoned in your opinion? No problem. Moa Morph and the problem is solved.

This skill is too strong compared to all Elites and also all skills in the game, that’s because it is overpowered.

Jungle Quack.1368:

Mesmers are balanced just fine. Not once playing as a Mesmer have I felt that I got a “free win” and not once playing as any other class have I felt the Mesmer got a “free win.” There are plenty of instances where I have completely rolled over a mesmer w/ moa morph as if he wasn’t even there, and plenty of times I have been squished by other classes while playing as a mesmer.

I have been hit with moa morph more than enough to know its not broken. If you feel the mesmer got a free win just because he disabled your skills for 10 seconds, you were probably gonna lose regardless. The fact is if you are playing well most of your skills should be recharging anyway (many of which have longer recharges than 10 seconds). Moa is a powerful ability, but it doesn’t stop you from kiting/running away. I can name plenty of elites on all the classes that are just as powerful. As with everything, its how the player uses it, and how the other player reacts that determines how powerful it is.

Mesmer are more powerful in 1v1 combat, but on the flip side, they are much weaker than other classes in big group battle situations where illusions die at the drop of a penny, often making large portions of a mesmer’s build unusable.

You can’t justify the Moa saying “you can kite/run”, Moa is a 10 seconds Daze, just think about this.
I’ll be really pleased if you list just ONE Elite which is as powerful and game breaking as Moa is.

Moa isn’t weak at group battle, please, don’t say that. If you are in Group Situation, you can either use Moa which increases the number advantage of your team for 10 seconds or you use Time Warp, which is another stupidly overpowered skill (10 seconds quickness in an area? Seriously?). Mesmer also has bunch of AoE debuff and damage like Null Field, Mind Wrack, Cry of Frustration, Illusionary Wave, Chaos Storm, Temporal Curtain, all the Glamour Skills and so on. I’ll trade all Corruption skills (as a Necro) for just an equivalent skill of Null Field.

iCryptik.1496:

sorrow.2364:

It’s ridiculous, so simple to understand, except if you are a Mesmer, of course.

It’s easy to understand if you play multiple classes, like I do. It’s ignorant to assume just because one plays a mesmer, his view is always one sided.

The fact of the matter is that the Moa should restrict the character from all his abilities, except for elite skills or pets that have already been casted or summoned (for pets).

It seems like the moa could be bugged in that it automatically cancels out any attack (such as elite) or pets that are summoned. I know what you’re talking about and I wasn’t sure why it canceled out pets either.

I can concede on the fact that the moa shouldn’t cancel out pets, or other elite abilities, it should only affect the player from casting any abilties or pets while he is constricted to moa form.

With “If you are a Mesmer” I was pointing at people who have a Mesmer character as main and probably have played so few match with other professions to be considered irrelevant.
It doesn’t matters if the Moa didn’t cancel transformations and pets, that is just a plus to Moa’s opness. Moa is, infact, a 10 seconds Daze, which is out of every balance. Do you consider a 10 seconds Daze skill well balanced? I think no.

iCryptik.1496:

What if I told you mesmers were a utility class?

You’re mind would finally be able to comprehend why we have certain abilities.

Our job is support dps, and to Buff/Debuff and CC.

Moa, while powerfull, is not OP, is not uber leet, and is not used by all mesmers.

The fact is, moa is a powerful elite skill. You should not be able to break out of it, because of the fact it’s an elite skill with a long cooldown, and is personally only used when the other team only has a really good guardian that we need to lock down.

Otherwise, Time Warp is generally more used in PVP, and if you get moa’d and possibly killed, sorry, but too bad. My warrior friend gets angered easily by mesmers but the fact is, he thinks he can just charge in and bash their brains in without any issues because he’s a mighty warrior, and this guy has been playing mmo’s for years.

TL;DR: Mesmers are not op, we provide utility to a group. Most of our abilities have a long CD, so get over it.

Well, what exactly do you mean with “utility”? 4k of totally automated damage with Illusionary Unload?
Every professions are made to cover every roles, that’s what ArenaNet is saying since GW2 reveal. With your mesmer you can play as DPS, Tank and of course support.
The point is that Moa is a free win button.

Just today I was playing with my Necro, I was holding a point against 2-3 people (you can’t know how much they are when there is a mesmer around) waiting for some friendlies. I was holding up quite well and I almost killed the warrior when poof, I became a Moa, my Flesh Golem despawned (no matter what Elite I had, it would be cancelled anyway), I died and the point was lost. Now, is this what you call “balance”? A single skill can make you lose like this? It’s ridiculous, so simple to understand, except if you are a Mesmer, of course.

Devolution.5716:

muha almost lvl 80 with my new warrior… srsly nerf thiefs and they become useless it’s only some few buffs to other classes then they can match thiefs.
But at the same time thiefs with 10k crits = deadmeat if they fail just for 1 second.
Also try getting to Rank 10 with 1 class before QQ like kitten, i am doing fine as warrior atm having 0 problems killing thiefs and i can do the same with any other class.
I just need time to adjust myself on how to play the class…..

L2P srsly -Regards Devolutionz

So, you are saying that you have no problem dealing with Thieves with your Warrior?
Wow, who expected that? The easymode profession has no problems with an easymode profession!

Now, make an Elementalist/Necromancer, than go in sPvP. Tell me if you have no problems dealing with Thieves.

Because glory emotes have no sense. It is an actual accomplishment, something that makes you proud of what you did and it is indicative of your experience level in that game mode.
sPvP, as it is now, is farmable with 1 friends.
Do you remember how rare was to find Starcraft Forever spamming his dragon in Guild Wars? He was a legend and well known in all the HA community for that dragon because he made it playing HA (not farming HA) and, probably, he was one of the most experienced HA player.
I think that now, there are bunch of people that have already accomplished the maximum sPvP rank by farming Glory and Rank points (capping and recapping nodes), there is no reason to let them have a cool emote because it is not indicative of their experience or skill level.

Well, there are tons of glory farmers here, there is no reason to add the emote since, as said before, it is no more related to a player’s skill.
In HA in GW, it was impossible to farm fame, so the emote made sense.

If they make a GW2 version of HA or TA, I would be really happy to see emotes again.

Mac.1936:

Honestly how often do you guys see this skill in action in tPvP? You are acting like it’s the bane of your existence.

I’ve seen it maybe once in the past two weeks and almost every comp has a mesmer.

Today I was moaed 6-7 times and I didn’t played so much.
Exactly, how much do you play sPvP/tPvP?

UptheIronz.6732:

if anything thieves needs a buff not a nerf , u want something nerfed if i were u Qpla search for mesmers and guardians thieves are midiocore at best , stop this blah blah about thief and l2p

LOL!
Thieves mediocre at best? Are we not playing the same game or are you a troll?

Sol.3296:

There is another thought too…perhaps people just like playing certain classes and others are unpopular…?

Wow, that’s weird.
The funny thing is that in Guild Wars everyone ran Smite Monk till it got nerfed, then everyone ran Seeping Wound Assassin… nerfed, than everyone ran VoR mesmer…. nerfed, so everyone moved to Shattering Assault Assassin… nerfed, so everyone played Scythe Ranger… till it was nerfed. (these things I’ve listed aren’t in cronological order)

Strange thing that ANet nerfed every build people liked!
They’ll sure do the same in Guild Wars 2 because they are evil!

Creslin.1758:

Asmodean

Let’s see moa morph vs necromancer:
1. All minions despawn and set on cd (yes, also the elite flesh golem)
2. if he is in one of his forms (DS, Lich, Plague Cloud) they are canceled

To sum it up: your elite 1 button mash cancels out the elite of another class, and (depending on spec) sets all support abilities of the class on cd AND gives you 10 sec a free go on the necro.
And heck if you think you can dodge it, then cast it after you stealthed. Until the guy locates you again and reacts your moa moph goes off.

I cannot see how that’s balanced in any way. However, if you disagree, would you like to face a class which could put all your support abilities, your minion production on a 20sec-2min cd, cancels your elite skill and can beat you up for 10 sec on top of that? Nah, you do not need to answer.

It’s an elite skill that has the POTENTIAL to cancel out another elite skill. What is the problem with that?

If it was a normal skill with a 30s CD that could cancel our your elite, then sure that’s an issue. But this is an elite, canceling another elite.

Nope.
This is an Elite which cancels all possible Elites plus makes your foe useless for 10 seconds.
If you don’t see the problem, you must be blind.

@cal:
All the skills you listed are uneffective, except Well of Darkness, but it is on a heavy cooldown and most the time it doesn’t worth an utility slot.
Axe on Necros are useless, the retaliation is for 3 seconds and other skills on Axe do so poor damage that it isn’t worth to use it in a weapon set for just one skill.
Haunt and Dark Pact requires a target, and Wail of Doom has a cone pattern, pretty useless considering that you don’t know where the thief is (so is a matter of luck) and 2 seconds daze isn’t enough.

I’m not saying I can’t avoid Backstab, of course it can be avoided when dealing with not so good thieves, but it’s like the Moa Morph. If you don’t avoid it, you are most likely screwed. The imbalance isn’t on a undodgeable skill, but on skills that if not dodged are way too destructive and looks like both thieves nor mesmers want to understand this.

Cal.1985:

@sorrow
I think you are completly ignoring the Reveal debuff. You cannot just re-stealth. No offense but If you don`t have ANY other means to avoid dmg except dodge… its your build problem, get fear, chills, slow, blind etc (not really familiar with all necro skills)

You think that is that hard to avoid hits while in Reveal? Thieves have dodge too!

Well, I’ve no other means to avoid damage against invisible target. I can cast a mark in the ground to fear the thief for 1 second (lol) or chilling him, assuming he is enough stupid to walk on it and I cast the mark near the thief, but I haven’t anything else.
Really, looks like you don’t know other professions.

Cal.1985:

Please excuse my confusion but how steal + backstab + heart seeker are 2 skills?

Why on earth are you not moving/dodgin after the dmg and seeing the thief going invisible?! It is even worse if the thief uses CnD (IT HAS CAST TIME). The thief has a maximum of 4 seconds during which he can land backstab. Get a way, use blind, use knockdown use anything to prevent the thief doing dmg on your back in the for 3-4 seconds. If you manage to get away:

Steal is on at least 30 (or more? not sure with 30 in thrickery) CD or the thief lost 6 initiate due to CnD.

This build is a one trick pony. It is easy aviodable in 1v1. In group fights well its harder but still doable.

People learned to avoid bull rush + hundred blades WHY on earth you can`t learn to MOVE when you see a thief wearing a dagger in MH getting invis close to you?!

Well, I’ve explained all the possible combos, but most the time Steal+Backstab is enough on professions with low health like elementalists. I was talking into a Necro perspective, I’ve higher health pool, so usually poor thieves have to use also Heartseeker to kill me. I know it is hard and tiring, but that’s it.

Dude, you have no idea when to dodge! With warriors you clearly see it coming in Bull’s Charge, with thieves you have no idea when he is going to hit you with backstab and wasting all the endurance to avoid just the opening skill looks stupid to me.

Who cares if you fail first attack? Use Cloak and Dagger and you are in stealth again! Failed also with Cloak and Dagger? There is Blinding Powder on your skillbar! You failed also with Blinding Powder? Then you mush have taken some damage, there is Hide in Shadows! Failed also with Hide in Shadows? Than you are a total noob! But no problem, you should have enough initiative to retry Cloak and Dagger!

Unfortunately, you target, when has lost all his endurance, can’t dodge anymore…

Cal.1985:

Please provide me with a good build that has all three. By all three I mean to benefit/use in synergy the stealth the mobilidy and the burst

2 Skill killing a glass cannon is normal. Move along. Stop whining about the backstab.

Well, I’m not running any glass cannon, I always run with at least 1700 toughness but I still get killed with 2 skills. Steal + (Cloak and Dagger if you haven’t the trait that stealth you on steal) + Backstab + Heartseeker if I’m not dead yet.

Want a build which synergize stealth, mobility and burst? The one everyone is running!

Dagger/Dagger + Shortbow

Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder, Assassin’s Signet, (free slot), Thieves Guild.

Put traits randomly around but be sure you have Mug and win.

Cal.1985:

Let me get that straight:

The class that is build for mobility and burst should NOT have mobility and burst.

I am confused… What should thiefs to then? Please explain with examples.

It depends on what kind of bursts. 2 skill kill is easywin, not burst.
But, exactly, in which part, burst or mobility, stealth belongs to?

There is no way to let you know how Thief is at the moment, you will always find a weak excuse to your insane high damage and great survivability thanks to stealth.
I want to invite you guys to play an Elementalist or a Necromancer for more than 2 days to realize how thieves are easy to play and incredibly effective at low skill levels.
Please, do this and then come here to answer this topic.

Rika.7249:

sorrow.2364:

Rika.7249:

Let’s just get this done:

Nobody loses against a spam-thief.
Nobody loses against a strict power+precision thief either.
You cannot compare great thieves with the spam-thieves.
Spam-thieves do not even get close to succeeding half as much as a great thief.

What you said has no real base except your experience, which, as a thief, isn’t valid.
I did it and I succeded. Here’s another guy that did it and succeded but posted a youtube video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

So my experience, as a thief, isn’t valid.

He’s not fighting competent players.

That’s all there is to it.

A thief can punish bad players more than any other can.

Thieves ARE punished when they meet a good player.

Of course it isn’t valid, because you are a thief and thief is your profession! Your point of view is extremely biased.

What let you think they aren’t competent? They are player and that’s what matter. You shouldn’t know if they are competent or not. There are many other videos on youtube explaining how to effectively spam Heartseeker. (lol)

And, if they aren’t competent as you said, all professions should be able to punish incompetent players at the same level, that’s what I call balance. Same opportunities.

All professions are punished when they meet a good player, but obviously an extremely good Necromancer/Elementalist/Engeneer/Ranger will never defeat an extremely good Thief.

Rika.7249:

Let’s just get this done:

Nobody loses against a spam-thief.
Nobody loses against a strict power+precision thief either.
You cannot compare great thieves with the spam-thieves.
Spam-thieves do not even get close to succeeding half as much as a great thief.

What you said has no real base except your experience, which, as a thief, isn’t valid.
I did it and I succeded. Bunch of people did that and succeded. Here’s another guy that did it and succeded but posted a youtube video about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

You now should realize that defending that status is useless.

Shukran.4851:

i could say the same when i face mesmers. for me thief is a pain in the a fighting a mesmer, while he just sit in his aoe with his illusions,stuns,chaos,conditions.

or watch thieves running after eles because his combo is 50% usefull against them.

but….game is still young, everyone still need to improve.

Of course.
What makes me angry are people who say “The game is fine. The balancing is fine, you just have to learn to play” when obviously it isn’t the truth. Everyone can reroll thief/mesmer/guardian and do fine but there are people that don’t want to because they want to play the class they love and than ask for ANet to balance the game, which is the right thing to do in my opinion.

Shukran.4851:

i don’t spam mindlessly.
try to spam against a warrior and you will die in a sec.
a mesmer can use #2staff or F4 and gg thief
ranger can use #3? to avoid some damage
necro can DS,fear
guardian..has retaliation,hp pool,toughness etc
ele has breakstun,cond remove
thief has shadowstep,blind,infiltrators,daze

ps: i removed haste from build 2 weeks ago, when a good team left me to 0 in tournament because they knew how to deal with thieves.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t spam mindlessly. Many people do it and succed, I’ve tried to do this and I succeded. If you want to play a thief in an higher level, that’s good, but don’t you feel frustrated knowing that people with half your skill performs just as good as you do (assuming you are good, of course)? That’s the point. You should learn your profession, know the traits, try builds, timing skills and than you should be effective. With thieves is not the case.

Knyx.5926:

It is really funny to see how desperate these horrible bottom of the barrel players really get with the nerfs they ask for

You don’t even deserve an answer. Come back to your cave.

Shukran.4851:

if i could list all the things people don’t like about thief, the class won’t exist or would be a weaker warrior.
if it could possible to be dangerous spamming headshot or infiltrator’s i would use more skills.
but if i use sword and pistol i have
autoattack -cost 0: can i use it ok? normal damage
infiltrator’s -cost 3 recast 2: bit damage and immobilize on target. a lot of classes has immobilize for their skills no?
pistolwhip – cost 5: main source of damage
headshot – cost 4: bit damage daze
black powder – cost 6: bit damage 3secs aoe blind.
any suggestion about using these skills in fight? remember my pool of initiative is only 12(15 if traited)

That’s why the thief is broken, as he is designed, he encourage people to mindless spamming skills. It is like an easymode professions for PvP.

Rika.7249:

Currently, initiative is our greatest weakness. What we use all adds up to a nasty global cooldown, yet because we’re able to use the same ability more than twice in a row, our abilities need to be weaker than other’s abilities, which are cooldown based.

Cloak and Dagger is our strongest ability, not because it delivers great damage, but because it allows us to backstab – which is where the great damage comes from. It also allows us to confuse the enemy. Revealed debuff is essentially working against the initiative system here – initiative was supposed to let us the same ability if we desired, yet that isn’t possible with Cloak and Dagger, because of the revealed debuff. Increasing the duration of the Revealed debuff will indirectly increase the cooldown of Cloak and Dagger, which already has a cooldown – which contradicts the whole initiative purpose.

This is why I think the current untraited stealth duration vs. revealed is alright – not perfect, but neither should be affected negatively.

The point is that you don’t need to vary your attacks to be effective and there should be something to compensate the cooldown absence on Thieves. I mean, with your untraited initiative pool, you can land 2 CnD with 2 Backstab and if you are just a bit good at, you can easily kill an enemy with 2 skills, not considering Roll for Initiative. There is no attack variety and the damage is insane.
Not to say that in a full stealth build, you can pop in and out of stealth every 3 seconds, dealing massive damage in the 3 seconds you are out of stealth and than vanishing again and also, you get this amazing defense without you need to put one single trait point in Shadow Arts or Arcrobatics. Any other profession, to have effective defenses, needs to put a bunch trait points in one on their defensive traits, thieves (and mesmer in some ascpects) don’t.

I agree that also Quickness needs something, since it is not available to any professions.
It should be as it was in Guild Wars, just 33% increased attack speed, not 100%.

Rika.7249:

sorrow.2364:

2. When a stealthed player get struck by any hit, there should be something to let the attacker realize he hit the stealthed guy. As it is now, you can only swing the air having no clue of there the enemy is going.

I don’t agree with this, since there’s already plenty of clues as to whether you hit him or not.

If you hit the thief with a melee swing, your combo will chain. If you don’t hit anything, you combo WON’T chain. If your combo chains, you know you’re hitting the thief.

Stealth does not make thieves immune to damage, and people just need to get used to that. Once you realize stealth is just an invisibility, not a immunity-coat with added stealth, you’ll be downing thieves easily.

I disagree with the rest. Initiative is why.

No any weapon sets has combos as autoattack. If you are using a weapon set that has no combo, you can’t know if the thief is around you. It sounds lame to me. Also there are skills that chain and are single target (Ex: Necro scepter chain) that will chain anyways without let you know where the thief is.

Can you tell me how can Initiative make you disagree with the rest I said, please?

UptheIronz.6732:

we really have more important issues than stealth atm , look at the mesmer and guardians do u think they are balanced ? stealth with thief is overrated , anyway it’s not our call whats to buff whats to nerf , it’s Anet Call , we have to wait and see whats comming in that pvp blog , if that’s comming , imo i highly doubt thief will be nerfed further

Thief had no nerf at all, I don’t feel to call the Heartseeker change a nerf, seriously.
Consider also that it will be an ArenaNet call to nerf or buff, but we are suggesting what to do, otherwise people claim us to make no constructive discussions but only whining.

UptheIronz.6732:

dreaming on guys , good players can kill thief really easy , it’s not meant as an offend no, but u really need to l2p , stealth detection is not needed , brain is

Really? Killing a thief who alternates high bursts and stealth is easy? Tell me how. Swinging the air hoping you get an hit?

In my opinion Stealth detection isn’t needed. What is needed to let the Stealth less easy mode.

1. When you use a skill, also if it doesn’t land, stealth ends (backstab will actualy requires skills to use properly!!!111)
2. When a stealthed player get struck by any hit, there should be something to let the attacker realize he hit the stealthed guy. As it is now, you can only swing the air having no clue of there the enemy is going.
3. The Revealed effect should last longer, maybe 2-3 seconds more (no Stealth spammers anymore).
4. Stealth should last less on thieves when it is not traited, way more when it is traited.

With these changes, Stealth can also lasts longer without balance issues imho.

auhfel.4129:

if it’s just two people in the map 1v1, it’s pretty much inevitable anyways. there’s 3 nodes and only 1 person on each team. to win that it’s usually either whom cam run to each node the fastest, or who can win a 1v1 better. With my thief I can just use my bow and movement signet to get to points uber fast and win.

No, I think you didn’t understand.

There were two people, not fighting but doing this:
1. Guy 1, on the red team, cap a node
2. Guy 1 move out of the node
3. Guy 2, a friend of Guy 1 and on the blue team, cap the node Guy 1 have just capped
4. Guy 2 move out of the node to let Guy 1 to cap the node again
5. Repeat to point 1

Do this for a considerable amount of time and you have bunch of glory and rank points without putting any effort or getting any skill.
Actually they were three guys, one on the blue team, two on the red, so when I’ve realized they were doing this and attacked them (I was in the blue), they ganked me and I died.

Is Glory farming in sPvP allowed?
With glory farming I mean a team of 2 players who alternates in capping a point.
I’ve found a couple of them when I’ve joined a match in sPvP and got harassed when I’ve said “glory farmers…”.
I’ve reported one of them due to botting, his name was:
Klaymor Addict
because I tought it wasn’t a legal behavior in sPvP.
Was I wrong?

Get real guys.
You can’t justify a clearly overpowered skill saying “It can be dodged or avoided”, it is just plain ridiculous. Every skill in this game can be avoided but I fear no skill more than Moa because if you fail to avoid that, you are screwed. No skill has such a devastating effect if not avoided and that’s because it is clearly overpowered.

Lucky.
If you meet a Moa Morph mesmer (almost 80-90% of mesmers), you have lost before getting into the fight.

Wolfe.3097:

if stealth ended when the thief got hit, then it would be completly useless. any class could simply lay down some form of aoe and pop us up the moment we stealth. any random tick of aoe even unintended for us would knock us out of stealth. it wouldnt just nerf it, it would make it, useless.

and thieves do use there utility skills! good ones anyways. head shot isnt for killing, but it stops stomps (incredibly useful) and a well timed interrupt is veyr helpful. in fact any decent pistol whip thief uses a utiltiy skill every single time they pistol whip, they steal, they infiltrator strike, shadow step, devourer venom, basilisk venom, etc

im not trying to be mean, but what your saying is flat out wrong, now, you can argue that its not enough, that pw is still OP (imo quickness is OP) and thats fine, but dont come here with false information and spread it (thieves only using there damage skill)…i mean ya, bad ones might, but any with a tactical brain in there heads knows its a horriblly ineffective way to play

You misunderstood me. I meant that thieves have actually 5 weapon skills, but they use only 1-2, I was not talking about utilities. To burst down a target with any other profession, you need a combination of autoattack, burst skills and other weapon skills, thieves actually use only Pistol Whip or Heartseeker because they are more than enough to kill a target. Who uses Black Powder on a pistol whip build? Who uses Death Blossom or Dancing Daggers when you have Heartseeker that is more than enough?
I mean, does a Thief need to know when to use Death Blossom to be effective? Does he need to know when to use Dancing Daggers when you have Heartseeker which is enough as a gap closer and damage dealer?
Spamming is always a good enough tactic on thieves and, since it doesn’t require any skill to do that, that’s because thieves are wrong in my opinion.

About Stealth, what I said doesn’t makes Stealth so useless. Maybe when you’re hit by an AoE you shouldn’t pop out of stealth, but when you are struck by a weapon hit, you should pop out of Stealth or at least the damage must be shown to let the attacker know you spotted the Thief. As it is now, Stealth is overpowered and I hope you agree with me.

I agree. I liked so much the GW arenas and PvP modes.
I think everyone will apreciate their comeback.

Wolfe.3097:

sorrow.2364:

Wolfe.3097:

dude the 2 seconds from my haste proc is sometimes enough for my autoattack to kill someone, or take nearly half there hp in the least.

quickness is seriously OP

and just cuz you dont like fighting vs stealth doesnt mean stealth is unbalanced, it has some bugs, but once those are fixed it will be fine.

Well, I’m just pointing out what in my opinion makes Thief so OP and these two things are damage and stealth. Get real, Stealth is the most effective defensive mechanic in the game and make it great also when not traited is a non-sense in terms of balancing.

Well, I don’t know which autoattack do you have, but usually 2 seconds of quickness aren’t really enough to kill someone without the huge damage the Thief now has. For example, if Thief with Pistol Whip would make 3-4k damage, there is no way to kill someone with just a quickness combo and, also, will let the thieves to practice more to get a kill instead of just do 3 spamming.

first i run Dagger/Pistol currently.

dodging or any kind of evade or immunity is actually the best defense in the game, stealth is a distant second as you can be hit by any non target required skill, aoe. condition damage still affects you (and is one of the best ways to counter a thief, especially a thief who stealths a lot), and CC still affects the thief. the problem is the bugs that stealth currently has.

you can make our damage kitten, we will still “spam 3” or whatever our damage skill is to get a kill.

people seem to assume thieves have more then one viable damage skill per weapon set, we dont. its our damage skill, and our utiltiy skills.

I’m not talking about defense in general, but defensive mechanic specific of a profession. Necros have Death Shroud, Mesmers have clones (and stealth sometimes), Warriors have banner and stances, Guadians have boons and so on.
As far I know, stealth is the best defensive mechanic, because, as you said, the only counter is to spam non-targeting skills or AoE in the air hoping you get the thief; plus, if you actually succed to land an hit, you won’t know that because there is no graphical/audio sign of that. So you just have to swing the air hoping that the thief you are looking for isn’t meters away from you. To me, it sounds a pretty overpowered mechanic. If stealth would finish when the thief got hit, then it won’t be such strong as it is now.

Well, the point is that no thief needs to use another skill to be good at killing other than the damage skill, there should be something to incentivate the use of utility skills. For example, if Pistol Whip had no stun effect while Headshot has it, it would be better than it is now.