Guild Wars 2

Dabu.1258:

The problem is easy, i cant make a build with MY OWN stats, i need to put a necklace that Anet want

example: i want Vit + Heal + Tough. I cant do that, because there is not exist.
and please, dont say me to use the “Celestial Amulet”

what’s wrong with you ANet? Is you who play sPvP?

So, you want to be the perfect bunker… Full Vitality, full Healing Power and full Toughness.
I can’t imagine how unbalanced this situation would be. I think the amulet system is fine, you can’t have all the kittening defensive attributes, you will be just unkillable…

Dabu.1258:

Ezekeel.2837:

So what skills does this necro use that you claim kills you in 3secs. Does he use wells or marks? What kind of weapons does he use? What were the skills that caused the most damage according to the damage statistic?

Full conditions impossible to remove with the Healing Turret + Super Elixir. Is not enough for you?

Dude, a Necro can stack 15 bleeds max for a little amount of time and, to get that cap, he needs to use all his bleeding skills.
The maximum bleed the Necro can mantain continuosly spamming 1 is 6 bleed around, which isn’t enough to kill someone in 3 seconds.

If you are running full toughness, it’s your fault. Do you know the hardest counter to bleeding? Vitality.
Use Soldier’s Amulet and you’ll see all the Necro opness disappearing.

Somna.5168:

Unlike Hex or Polymorph, Moa actually lets you run away, heal yourself, and daze people. You also can’t Moa someone you can’t target, or if you get blinded. And there’s other problems with it too.

Unless you’re one of those people who just stand there indignantly and give up if it gets cast on you.

The only thing wrong with it that a majority of people actually agree on is the instant-toast of Necro minions. But really, that’s more of a necro bug than a Moa issue. :P Really, Moa is a glorified player taunt. Maybe they should add an immunity to snares on it just to drive home the point that Moas don’t just stand there like idiots.

You can’t heal yourself, or, at least, you can’t consider an heal the skill the Moa has. It heals for a max of 2000 hp on an insane casting time, using that skill means you are committing suicide, not healing.

Every skill in this game isn’t 100% sure to land, the fact that Moa is dodgeable, blockable and can miss, means absolutely nothing.

As a Moa, you have all your skills dumped and all your transformations cancelled, plus you are an useless bird for 10 seconds.
If you don’t see the stupidity of that skill, I don’t know what to say… It is clear and obvious that Moa Morph shouldn’t be in this game.

@xloz:
Ease of use is most the time sign of unbalance, because it is strictly connected with profession’s effectiveness. The more the profession is easy to use, the more the profession is effective at low skill level, the more you win against hard to play profession with middle skilled player. That’s unbalancing.

In Guild Wars, Palm Strike Assassins were incredibly easy to use, they were nerfed. Same as IWAY, Sway, Seeping Wound, Backbreaker, Smite monk and so on, all nerfed because of their ease of use.

@xloz: nope, Thief/Guardian/Mesmer is actually the people I meet in tPvP because, you know, that’s not only you playing that mode.

The fact that you can win with these classes means nothing. Running these professions put you in disadvantage compared to people who is running the holy tPvP trinity. Of course if you are very skilled with other professions and enemies are newbie you are going to win, but this doesn’t mean that you have more difficulties facing with them when the skill is the same.

Players always ran build which make winning easier and now, the high presence of G/M/T means that they are the key for an easier win, not sure, but easier, and it shouldn’t be like this in a balanced environment.

@xloz:
I don’t care about your wins and I think none cares.
The class balancing isn’t about how much someone wins with a specific class. The fact that in almost every tPvP team there is at least a Mesmer, a Thief and a Guardian says much about balancing, your wins don’t.

@xloz:
Is it needed to play tournament to realize how the game balancing is broken?
You are overrating tPvP, it is just sPvP with less people and, most the time, they are the same.
But, before you came here saying that we don’t know how balance work, do you know what balance actually is?

So, Necros don’t know what they are talking about and you know. The whole Necro community don’t know how to play and you do…

Please, make a real argument, not just arrogant statements.

Karther.7481:

Death Shroud skills are fine in general.

1 is probably Necro’s highest ranged direct damage ability, although unfortunately it has little use outside of Power/Crit specs.

The 2 key chills (snare+ability recharge debuff) AND -bleeds- them. Oh snap. Death Shroud sucks for condition Necromancers? Wait, what? There’s two conditions right there on one skill. And it’s a gap closer.

Granted you don’t want to close a gap into an enemy group in WvW or a powerful melee profession (Warr, Thief) for example, but in small scale (sPvP) and one vs ones, as well as PvE, it’s very useful. The bleeding isn’t massive damage, but it’s decent. The Chill however is fantabulous. As in, fantasically fabulous. Stacking conditions you’re going to have say… 8 seconds duration on that Chill. That means eight seconds of them moving at 33% speed instead of 100%. That means eight seconds of their abilities recharging at 33% speed instead of 100%. Tasty.

The 3 skill is a free interrupt you can use whilst stunned/feared/knocked down. Did I mention you don’t even have to be facing your target? And it’s instant. The duration sucks as a fear, but regardless it’s still an extremely useful ability I use all the time.

The 4 skill is not a heal as someone mentioned. Regardless of your spec, it does good AoE damage. It’s one of Necro’s most powerful abilities. Unless you have a crazy high bleed stack going, this will probably do more damage than your conditions whilst you’re channeling it or near enough, while allowing your bleeds to tick too. Take it with a Power/Crit build and it’s really good. Take it with the Transfusion trait box that makes it heal allies and you’ve got a brilliant support ability.

If they need to change anything, they could add a bleed effect onto the 1 skill, but leave it with it’s direct damage too. That way the Power/Crit stackers and Con stackers get decent damage out of it. And both get it buffed too, and after the nerfs I think it does need a general buff.

I’d hate to see all the skills on it change with weapons, I like what we have and constantly use it as it is to great effect.

I know that skills are good, but probably not everyone wants them in their specific build.
When I’m running conditionmancer, I feel Life Blast a wasted skill, since the damage is ridiculous, the range is low and the casting time high, same with Life Transfer. These skills just don’t feel right with every Necromancer spec.

I want to give you an example.
If you are running scepter, you are most likely running conditions, so your 1 Death Shroud skill become something that inflict bleed and transfer one condition to your enemy, if you are running Dagger, you’re probably running vampiric, so your 1 Death Shroud skill will siphon a specific amount of health/life force. If you are running Axe, it will inflict vulnerability or give you retaliation and do more damage and so on.

Same about 2 skill, it can be binded to your offhand and it can be a gap closer if you’re running Warhorn (most likely you need to be in close range), it can inflict bleeding or weakness if you’re running Dagger, it can Chill or inflict vulnerability/high damage if you are running focus and so on.

Of course these are only ideas, but, in my opinion, if correctly implemented, these changes could give some fresh air to the Necromancer and a bit more variety because, as we are now, we have the least skill variety among all professions.

@Shukran: I know. I was talking about Mesmers claiming Moa Morph was a 3-4 seconds casting time when casting time infos were hidden. And, if someone misunderstood, now I’m laughing about Mesmers’ claims.

I remember Mesmers said Moa Morph is a 3-4 second casting time, so it can be easily dodged and if you don’t you are just bad. Now I laugh about it.

Have you guys ever felt that Death Shroud fits wrong with the build you are running?
Take, for instance, a condition Necromancer, Death Shroud is useful only to absorb damage and to cast Fear somethimes, plus building life force with some spec is really really hard, making the core profession mechanic playing a marginal role or not playing at all.
Every profession have their core mechanic match with every build they want to play.
Warriors have bursts which depend on weapon set, Guardians have both offensive that defensive Virtues, Rangers have loads of pets with different abilities, Engineers have their defensive/offensive kits, Thieves can’t be compared because of their weird mechanics, Mesmers have both offensive and defensive shatters and, about Elementalists, it is obvious.

So, in my opinion, Death Shroud abilities should change depending on weapon set, if not every skill, at least 2, this will make Death Shroud a real core mechanic for Necromancer, always well fitted to his builds.

For instance, if you are running Scepter/Dagger, Death Shroud should be similiar as it is now underwater, if you are running Axe/Focus, they should be more power-oriented, if you are running Dagger as MH, they should focus on life stealing and so on.
It would highly increase the build variety on Necros which now is pretty narrow.

What do you Necros think?

Jordan.9132:

7. Necros have never had issues since day one, they are very good in teamfights and can dish out a ton of damage and easily kill a bunker, or can build to become a very strong bunker as well.

I can say, as a Necro, that you’ve never played Necro.
We still have 62 known bugs after the bugfixes, our damage is still ridiculous and our bunker builds are a joke compared to guardians.
I don’t know where you took that infos, but to me, they look incredibly wrong.

Godmoney.2048:

sorrow.2364:

Don’t try to explain people here Moa Morph is the most stupid and overpowered skill in the game, you are losing your time.
This thread will end on Mesmers claiming you are bad, that you think Moa is OP because you don’t dodge and run or use the uber Moa skillz (yup, suggestions are in contrast), that Moa is fine because it can be dodged and it is on a slow cooldown and so on…
People won’t realize that 10s cc is a joke, they will always find a way to justify it.

It’s not 10 seconds.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Morph

Don’t try to explain people here Moa Morph is the most stupid and overpowered skill in the game, you are losing your time.
This thread will end on Mesmers claiming you are bad, that you think Moa is OP because you don’t dodge and run or use the uber Moa skillz (yup, suggestions are in contrast), that Moa is fine because it can be dodged and it is on a slow cooldown and so on…
People won’t realize that 10s cc is a joke, they will always find a way to justify it.

It actually helped much. No more Phantasms spamming!
Your Phantasms now actually have a cooldown and you have to choose when it is the right time to cast them! Of course, in my opinion, the cooldown nerf should be harder, but this is a first step and we can’t say how this will affect the meta.
I know that it is hard at the first time but, you know, it is a L2P issue.

Shukran.4851:

@Zatria: i don’t know what’s happened with posts, reports etc.
but i can answer you about the part

Why is it that it takes all of that to have a chance vs. one class? Why, especially when the class can get by with only using 2 buttons?

because that kind of thieves are cannonglass. means they have
14.095 HP
2130 armor (15points shadow arts)
IF a thief do something wrong, even wasting a attack, he is dead.

Why if I build my Necromancer/Ranger/Elementalist/Engineer to be a glass cannon none needs a manual to counter him? The only existence of this topic proves Thieves are OP.

TheGuy.3568:

sorrow.2364:

I’m sure your post is full of interesting things and acute observations and I really want to have the pleasure to answer it, but the total absence of commas is an hard challange to my poor english skills.

“challenge”

“English” http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_English_word_begin_with_a_capital_E

No one likes a grammar nazi especially when they’re a hypocrite.

If you don’t want to read that fine but I could care less if there were a typo in what someone else had to say the content is what is important. Please don’t pull down the quality of this thread as we have had decent discussion.

I didn’t wanted to act like a grammar nazi and I’m sorry if you felt that. The fact is that I actually can’t understand your post, while I’ve understood every other post in this topic.
I’ve also specified that my english (English if you want) skills are poor, that’s because e(E)nglish isn’t my mother language and I know I’m quite bad at it, but using no punctuation in a quite complex post make reading it a real pain and this kills the discussion at my side. I’ve just asked you to use commas to make your posts more readable, don’t feel offended.

Arius.7031:

I was speaking specifically about two treated builds, the common phantasm build and the common shatter build. A phantasm build is not OP at all, a shatter build is OP to a small extent, though it’s cancelled out by other very common builds. The guy was complaining about Phantasms, when Phantasm builds are arguably our weaker builds (though this is not the case every time).

The point I’m trying to make is that he’s complaining about something that isn’t overpowered to begin with… Phantasms die really quick, Phantasms do only decent damage, they’re on 6-12 second cooldowns, they’re not OP in the slightest. I don’t want people assuming that something is OP because they’ve been killed by it. If someone wants to bring me decent evidence suggesting that Phantasms are completely OP, and that Mesmers are simple and that all you have to do is spam phantasms like sorrow suggests, I’m open to it. Until then, I can tell you, as a Mesmer who has tried many builds, Phantasms are generally speaking not OP.

You don’t get the point. I’m not complaining about Phantasms in general, I’m complaining about Phantasms having an incredibly low cooldown (no more actually, ArenaNet agreed with me) that they can be easily spammable. It doesn’t really matter that Phantasms die quickly if you can recast them in few seconds.

Use the build everyone uses.
Sword/Pistol + Staff + Decoy + Moa Morph
Traits and other utilities don’t matter too much, put points where you feel they are right and utilities you like.

Arius.7031:

sorrow.2364:

@Auron: What is hard? Spamming all your clones and phantasms, coupled with your stuns and Moa Morph and than waiting for the target to die? What is the “right skills + order”?

Seriously, I just want to figure out where the hard part is.

I’m sorry… you seem to be under the impression that Phantasms are the Mesmer’s strength… Phantasms are helpful, I’ll grant you that, but any half way decent play can counter a Phantasm build Mesmer. And honestly, if you at this point can’t detected the real Mesmer, you need to PvP more.

The only build even up for discussion as to if it’s OP is a shatter build, which relies on destroying your clones — not spamming them. A condition Mesmer is strong but definitely not OP.

Play the class to 80 (if you have not already) then come back and talk to us about how OP Mesmer is — I don’t think you understand how much more complicated it is to manage a Mesmer when compared to most classes — it takes a lot more micro management thanks to our illusions.

You misunderstood my post or you just manipulated it to be like you wanted.

1. I’ve never said that the problem is to find the real mesmer.
2. Shattering clones is a consequence of spamming clones. The broken thing is in the fact that Mesmers’ clones/phantasms are many, on low cooldown and most of them are incredibly powerful.
3. There is no point to play the profession to level 80, because PvE isn’t PvP. Take Necromancer for instance, in PvE it is almost unkillable but than go in PvP and feel the pain.
4. Where exactly is the micro management? Cast your phantasm and let him deal bunch of damage for you? Or the micro management is when you have to dump them to deal massive damage?

TheGuy.3568:

Schwahrheit.4203:

sorrow.2364:

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

I like the sarcasm in your post. Allow me to annoy you a little more. Thieves take more skill than Warriors at full potential.

That is debatable however most Mesmers if you control + T them cant do too much except play well (as has been stated many times before).

As far as skill goes if the majority uses the same builds and wins the most with those builds does that mean each and every one of them playing the same class with the same build is equally skilled as they get the same results with the same effort? Seriously take a second to think about it.

Ohh and as far skill goes I have seen some eles chain all four elements keeping up with the unique cool downs of each one and have much success. As far as skill does imho that is the epitome of skill in this game.

I’m sure your post is full of interesting things and acute observations and I really want to have the pleasure to answer it, but the total absence of commas is an hard challange to my poor english skills.

Schwahrheit.4203:

Its just Battle of Khylo in Tournament mode for Mesmers. Thieves are just a learn to play issue.

Nice well argumented and intelligent post. Your contribution is indispensable to this topic. You opened my eyes, now I know that you are a very good player and everyone here who complains about game balancing are just baddies.

Thank you.

The complains about class balancing isn’t a matter of skill, it is a fact. Of course good players know how to counter and dealing with these gimmick professions, but they can’t negate they are plain broken.
I think that no very good player have enormous problems dealing with Mesmers/Thieves/Guardians, but the point is that almost no skill is required to play these professions effectively and to be competitive with. In a situation of perfect balance, the skill is the only factor who matters in a battle’s outcome, but I think that now, in Guild Wars 2’s PvP, it’s not the case. If you don’t see this, you are either stupid, biased or a troll.

Want an example? In Guild Wars, there was some meta builds in PvP (IWAY, Sway, rspike) which were always countered by a good balanced team and they of course had their weaknesses, but they were nerfed anyway because they required almost no skill to be effective. That’s the whole point of balance, if you don’t get it, just don’t talk about it.

rickshaw.5279:

sorrow:

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video…

Read as, “I can’t make the Thief look OP so I’ll claim laziness”.

Lol, why do I have to make another video of me facerolling guys as a thief if there are bunch on the internet? Do you want a video of myself pounching the keyboard and winning as a thief to be happy? Is the ones I’ve posted not enough to you?

sorrow:

sorrow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPL3_uEyGM

Fight #1 3v1. Yes, the Thief was soooo OP there. /rolleyes
Fight #2 2v1 vs. Glass cannon Thief. Clearly a severe case of OP. I see what you mean.
Fight #3 2v1 vs. fleeing 1/2 dead opponent…
Fight #4 2v1 vs. another 1/2 dead opponent…

And that’s just the first 5 minutes. Any class can run around looking for numbered advantage against weakened opponents. He, in fact, avoided 2 confrontations because of this. The video was funny, that’s about it. All it illustrated was HS is strong as a finisher…. which is exactly what it’s designed for. In fight 2 he tossed 5 HS’s against his opponent and it still didn’t go down.

All this video did was validate my post and invalidate your whining.

So, you are clearly avoiding to see the truth. We have one thief in this video running with almost no traits, just one weapon and attacking while pounching the keyboard and he succeded to get the first position of the match. In a situation of balance, he wouldn’t win anything. Also, if you pay attention, he didn’t used the healing skill at all.

Look at the last fight against the warrior, it is the most significant. Looking at first 5 minutes of the video than claiming that it is invalid is just stupid.

rickshaw.5279:

sorrow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5zjK7ITpQ

Love this video… oozing butthurt from an elementalist who’s probably all sad face because the most intricate class in the game is too hard for him to wrap his brain around. Cherry picked fade in and/out’s… awesome evidence you got there. I can make a naked Engi look like the most devastating force on the field with Cherry picked WvW footage.

All in all you need to spend less time on the forums saying that FIVE OF THE EIGHT CLASSES IN THE GAME ARE OVERPOWERED and spend more time learning the game you’re getting bent out of shape over.

/discussion

Again, here is my fantastic graph to let guys like you understand what unbalancing is, since it doesn’t look like you really understand it.
http://i48.tinypic.com/2zhe6hd.png
If you don’t know how to read cartesian planes, just ask.

rickshaw.5279:

I love how Sorrow listed 5 of the 8 available classes as OP. I find your name quite fitting to your perspective.

People whining about Thieves need to roll one then post unedited videos of them face rolling matches. I want to see it. Until then your whining is simply that: whining. I play a Guard, Engi, Necro and Thief. Thief is bar none the most risk vs. reward oriented class I’ve played. It is also the most twitch focused.

Heartseeker got fixed, no one in their right mind spams it and if they are chances are they will lose. It’s the most efficient way to be inefficient. You’d get better DPS spamming Cluster then you would seeker. People aren’t encountering this phenomenon, they’re still riding the cry train from 2 weeks ago and referencing videos that are no longer applicable because they got rolled.

I dunno where this “there is no risk” garbage is coming from. As a D/D or P/D thief I die quite a bit. I see my fair share of pavement. What I don’t see are fellow thieves dominating the boards as often as you people claim.

There are good players and there are bad players.

People on the forums, my self not excluded, tend to fall into the mediocre crowd. I’m telling you now, if you keep getting rolled by any given class… you’re bad. Practice more and adjust your builds and, more importantly, habits.

When my best friend started pizzing and moaning that Mesmers were OP he didn’t find a sympathetic ear from me. What he got was me telling him to stop acting like a lone wolf and getting picked off because despite his misconception, he’s not Chuck fuggin Norris.

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video, I’ll post you some that are freely available on youtube for your pleasure. All are after heartseeker nerf.

There are 2 of the bunch I’ve seen on youtube.
I think they are enough.

rickshaw.5279:

I love how Sorrow listed 5 of the 8 available classes as OP. I find your name quite fitting to your perspective.

People whining about Thieves need to roll one then post unedited videos of them face rolling matches. I want to see it. Until then your whining is simply that: whining. I play a Guard, Engi, Necro and Thief. Thief is bar none the most risk vs. reward oriented class I’ve played. It is also the most twitch focused.

Heartseeker got fixed, no one in their right mind spams it and if they are chances are they will lose. It’s the most efficient way to be inefficient. You’d get better DPS spamming Cluster then you would seeker. People aren’t encountering this phenomenon, they’re still riding the cry train from 2 weeks ago and referencing videos that are no longer applicable because they got rolled.

I dunno where this “there is no risk” garbage is coming from. As a D/D or P/D thief I die quite a bit. I see my fair share of pavement. What I don’t see are fellow thieves dominating the boards as often as you people claim.

There are good players and there are bad players.

People on the forums, my self not excluded, tend to fall into the mediocre crowd. I’m telling you now, if you keep getting rolled by any given class… you’re bad. Practice more and adjust your builds and, more importantly, habits.

When my best friend started pizzing and moaning that Mesmers were OP he didn’t find a sympathetic ear from me. What he got was me telling him to stop acting like a lone wolf and getting picked off because despite his misconception, he’s not Chuck fuggin Norris.

Since I’m to lazy to upload a video, I’ll post you some that are freely available on youtube for your pleasure. All are after heartseeker nerf.

There are 2 of the bunch I’ve seen on youtube.
I think they are enough.

Scarlett.1549:

I main a mesmer, and I consider myself very good at it. I was very successful in wow (2500 been my highest rating), and I believe Ill be very successful here. I said that I was going to play a mesmer even when everyone was telling me how underpowered they were during the beta. I love mesmer, and I love the way they fight. There are very few 1v1’s that I lose at, and in saying that, 90% of the mesmer’s I come up against are really bad. 80% of the thieves I come against are just spammers. But the good ones make for some really decent fights.

There is an influx of players thinking that mesmer’s and thieves are op. These guys are very easy to spot, and easier to beat. Against other classes, I can see how annoying it would be to play against them, simply from the illusion spamming, and bleed spamming stand point, but they should still be easy to beat for anyone who is mildly skilled at their class.

Skilled mesmer’s will still be something to qq about, even after any balance changes.

LOL
I’ve missed this piece of art. Starting listing your WoW success made your post and your opinion also more credible.
Your “everyone is bad and I’m so good because I were a WoW pro, that’s not the profession which is overpowered” attitude made me laugh.

@Auron: What is hard?
Spamming CnD, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge and Hide in Shadows to be perma stealthed when you are not attacking? Or maybe strafing around your target with Death Blossom evading all attacks?
Spamming all your clones and phantasms, coupled with your stuns and Moa Morph and than waiting for the target to die? What is the “right skills + order”?

Seriously, I just want to figure out where the hard part is.

The point about unbalancing is all about profession effectiveness compared to skill level.
I’ll make a poor graph to let all you l2p guys understand one time for ever.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2zhe6hd.png

Now, is the problem clear to everyone?
Why the kitten do I have to waste time to learn my profession when I can reroll Thief, Crossfire Ranger, Guardian or Mesmer and faceroll everyone?

@Keenis: is your staff the bifrost? :O
What is its animation? It is pretty hard to find a Youtube video about that staff.

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

sorrow.2364:

What I feel?
I feel that skill incredibly powerful, it actually stands out from the average useless Necro skills.

Seriously, it applies 2 bleed (+2 on you transferible) stacks plus gives you 10 stack of might which actually increases the condition damage of an amazing 300 points (30 damage per tick if I’m not wrong).

Who can say that skill is useless or it is a nerf? I think that now it is a must on every Burst/Condition build bar.

You are wrong. The Math has been done to death. Its 350 condition damage, and you only get 5% of that. so its 17.5 more damage a tick.

Also no such thing as burst conditions. That just how conditions work.

I meant Burst or Condition, not both xP
However 17.5 more damage per tick isn’t insignificant, it can make a difference considering how fast bleed ticks.

What I feel?
I feel that skill incredibly powerful, it actually stands out from the average useless Necro skills.

Seriously, it applies 2 bleed (+2 on you transferible) stacks plus gives you 10 stack of might which actually increases the condition damage of an amazing 300 points (30 damage per tick if I’m not wrong).

Who can say that skill is useless or it is a nerf? I think that now it is a must on every Burst/Condition build bar.

juno.1840:

sorrow.2364:

When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

If you stand and do nothing you will die in 10s regardless of Moa. That’s my whole point — in that case you died because you suck, not because you’re a moa.

You have a heal as a moa — did you use it?
You have a stun as a moa — did you use it?
You can run — did you try that?
You can dodge — did you have any vigor left and try that?

Refer to my post above — you’re not helpless as a Moa but everyone who’s been owned acted like they were…

Don’t take just a sentence of my post and answer only to that sentence, please.
I’ve made a whole post, it is worth reading, don’t you think?

Do you really think that the 5 skill is an heal? It is a 3 seconds casting time heals which heals only for 2k, not worth using. Also that was said before that it is not worth fighting as a Moa, now you are saying it is worth? Have you tried to fight as a Moa? Seriously.

Guys, I’m wasting my time here. Your point of view is extremely spoilt and you have no idea of what overpowered means, you are keep saying the same things over and over, hoping that they makes sense if you keep repeating them.
You will realize that Moa was op when ANet nerfs it in the next balancing patch. Have fun with your fair and well balanced Moa Morph.

I’m not.
I’m way more enjoying Guild Wars PvP. I’m playing PvE in Guild Wars 2 and PvP in Guild Wars.

juno.1840:

sorrow.2364

I did, 3-4 seconds after I was dead.
Please, try it out before suggesting people to do things everyone know don’t work.

So you went from 100% health to dead in 4 seconds because of Moa in a 1v1 with a mesmer? That’s what you are implying with your response.

If the situation was different (i.e. you were at low health before moa, it wasn’t a 1v1, you didn’t use your moa skills, you didn’t run, you didn’t dodge, etc) then your response is counter-productive. Why? Because you would have died with any other elite as well… not just moa.

People are skewing the argument and blaming a loss completely on Moa — that’s the premise of this entire post: “I was moa’d and therefore I died…”

It’s not accurate, and not true.

Ok, let’s suppose I wasn’t at full health, but at something more than an half, not enough to be worth using your healing skill though, just the situation I’ve described before.
Now which skill wipes out more than an half of your life bar without giving you the chance to heal or to stunbreak and makes your enemy totally harmless? I think none.
When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

juno.1840:

I love this thread because again and again I keep reading “I can’t do anything for 10s”… “it’s a 10s daze!”… blah blah blah.

Again and again the reply has been:

1. You can run
2. You can dodge
3. You can use the moa skills

Item 3 above is what’s mostly ignored by the “nerf” faction. One Moa skill is a stun. Another Moa skill is a heal.

Is a Moa as powerful as a player?
Nope, you are as powerful as a lvl 80 Moa you run into in PvE.

Are you completely helpless as if you were dazed for 10s?
Nope, you are as helpless as a lvl 80 Moa in PvE.

Lastly I’m not defending what I consider “bugs”. Into this category I throw the necro’s loss of pets. That is a bug that should be fixed. I also put the cancellation of elite “form” skills into this “bug” list. I think that should be fixed so that it doesn’t occur and the Moa skill goes on a five second c/d (just like an interrupted or failed skill does).

Oh wait, so you are suggesting to fight as a Moa? Have you actually tried it?
I did, 3-4 seconds after I was dead.
Please, try it out before suggesting people to do things everyone know don’t work.

Somna.5168:

Just a thought…how can you play a Mesmer and not know that the unload is coming from the Illusionary Duelist, which always stands still when doing it, and not the Mesmer?

Did I mentioned Illusionary Duelist? Was the subject of that sentence the Illusionary Duelist? You know, the Mesmer can deal damage from himself damage.
I think there are serious understanding problems here.

EasymodeX.4062:

Seriously, how am I supposed to kill a Duelist in 2 seconds, which is the time the Mesmer needs to cast Moa when stealthed?

I recommend starting with the button on your keyboard labelled “1”. There are other options as well, by default associated with the buttons “2” through “5”. Generally speaking, a casual roll-face of these buttons will usually have the desired effect on the dreaded Duelist.

Looks like you jumped a fondamental part of my sentence, which is “in 2 seconds”. You know, if you aren’t specced in glass cannon builds, it isn’t too easy to kill that illusion in 2 seconds, assuming that you have lightning reflexes to react the stealth in a fraction of a second.

3. So, the best counter to Moa is to run? Wow, that’s what the mesmer wants! Is he defending a point?

Hmmm. Well, let’s see … if the Mesmer is not on the Treb because he is fighting you … you are succeeding.

If you run away successfully and return 15 seconds later … hmm, now you get to fight again and the Mesmer has no dreaded Moa.

Good show!

Let’s get straight.
If the Mesmer decides to fight me, I’m dead. One snare is more enough to prevent me escaping.

If the Mesmer let me run away, I’ve lost a precious occasion to kill the Mesmer, I’ve probably wasted my Elite which is on cooldown also and the Mesmer saved his kitten with just one skill. Well, tell me which skill has the power to save your kitten in one cast not considering Moa, please.

And these are the cases regarding a trebuchet run. What if the Mesmer is defending a point? He disables you for 10 seconds with one skill, more then enough time for the friendlies to come to help, without considering that it isn’t even needed in a 1vs1 situation, because the Mesmer can leave the node unprotected to kill you, if he wants. What if the Mesmer is attacking a point protected by a single player? Moa will force them to run or die, so that skill means a sure cap.
What if the Mesmer is defending the trebuchet? Moa is enough to solve the situation.

Don’t answer to just one case I proposed, answer them all.

Kelesti.2458:

Found your problems. Two of them. You left the Duelist up while the Mesmer was stealthed. Even without the rest of this situation, if you’d have got the Mesmer down, the Duelist would have taken you with it. Second is the wasted dodges. Primary escape mechanic is running, run away. Run run run. If you’re running, you’re outranging the Unload. Only time this isn’t true is if they spent 2 seconds of your 10 second daze casting it. In which case you dodge. In fact, if they’re pistol, the two pistol skills are pretty much the only thing you need to dodge (Magic Bullet and the Unload from the Duelist). Or you’re Line of Sighting it, drop down the hill and gtfo.

But they won’t catch up to you. Mesmers have no passive speed increase, they’d have to weapon swap to a Focus for reliable swiftness. Which means that they won’t have their pistol anymore for a stun.

And while they’re chasing you off into the middle of nowhere where you’re taking no damage, no one is firing the Trebuchet, no one is defending it.

Edit: Or what EasymodeX said.

What are you talking about?
1. The mesmer can cast the duelist every 15 kittening seconds. Also if you focus on the duelist leaving the mesmer alone, you’ll probably see it again when you are a Moa. Seriously, how am I supposed to kill a Duelist in 2 seconds, which is the time the Mesmer needs to cast Moa when stealthed?
2. Sooo. You are saying to run to outrange the Unload… Do you realize how stupid is that thing? First, you are assuming that the Mesmer won’t follow you, second you are leaving the objective (trebuchet, node) which is your main target, third you can’t deal damage if you outrange the unload, you know? Also we are considering only the Illusionary Unload, did you know that Mesmers have other 7 skills excluding Moa, Heal and Duelist? We are making theories on the hypothetic case that the mesmer is doing nothing except casting Illusionary Duelist, which I think it won’t happen in any fight.
3. So, the best counter to Moa is to run? Wow, that’s what the mesmer wants! Is he defending a point? No problem, Moa and you are forced to run away to counter it. Are you capping a point? Moa! Are you trying to destroy a trebuchet? Moa! Are you using the trebuchet and a Mesmer came to destroy it? Moa! Did you know that the goal of sPvP isn’t killing people?
Really, either your point of view is extremely biased or you don’t know what sPvP is.

Not to say that Moa is an easy counter of every kittening Necro Elite skill plus 1/4 of their utilities and the whole profession specific mechanic which is Death Shroud (when you are Moaed when you are in DS you are stuck in DS wasting all your Life Force).
Also you get the bonus to have your target totally useless for 10 seconds, without heals, skills, stunbreakers and protections. This is the skill everyone wants to freewin.

Kelesti.2458:

So every Moa (especially those on high health targets as damage control) is instantly followed up by an uncounterable stun automatically? I must not be traited right.

If a Warrior (and Mesmer, lol?) are killing you in a stun, they have ways to force your stunbreak early. In which case you wouldn’t have it anyways and you’re losing a 2v1. And following that up with more snares, dazes, and immobilizes, they don’t need a Moa to control and kill you. Not the skill’s fault.

A Moa doesn’t get you killed. It gets your teammate killed when you can’t do a knockback for them to counter a stomp, or even counter-pressure. It’s not an effective 1v1 tool. It’s not an effective 2v1 tool either, because you’re already being outplayed and it’s unnecessary. If they’re casting it on you, it’s because they’re trying to tick you off, not that it’s tactically necessary. Apparently, judging by your responses, it’s working.

What? The absurdity number on this thread are far more than expected.
Moa isn’t an effective 1vs1 or 2vs1 tool?

Ok, let’s analyze the average situation when facing a Mesmer with Moa Morph in his bar ready to be casted.

1vs1:
You are approaching a mesmer who is defending the trebuchet, for instance, and you want to kill him and then destroy the trebuchet.
You are playing as better as you can, killing clones the mesmer is spamming, dodging, stunlocking and so on, you may also have casted your elite skill in order to win the battle. Now, let’s suppose the Mesmer we are against is quite bad and his life bar is less than half and your is above half.
Now, the mesmer have realized he is in disadvantage and he uses Decoy and casts Moa Morph. You, because aren’t a perfect player, become a shiny Moa.
You start to run and run, wasting all your dodges, in the meantime, the mesmer is spamming all his skill randomly and we assume that at least 8k damage is dealt (just 1 illusionary unload plus some attack of the warlock). When you are out of Moa Morph you have something like 2k hp left (assuming you have 20k hp base, which is quite high), you just have to use one of your stun or waiting to your illusions to make your job aaaand… you are downed.

Now I have to go, I’m continuing this post later. But you can imagine what’s the situation in 2vs1 or 1vs2, if you can’t I’m posting it later.

Dudes, seriously.
If you get Moaed, you are most likely to being killed if there is a Warrior/Thief or the same Mesmer around and he is smart enough to snare you down. Also, the stupid thing about Moa is that you can’t remedy once you are Moaed, compared to all Elite skills that other professions have.

You see a Tornado? No problem, switch to ranged weapon.
You see Plague Form? Go ranged.
You see Thieves Guild? Kill thieves.

How can you put a remedy to Moa? You can’t and you are most likely to be screwed.

ConterK.3972:

sorrow.2364:

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it?

so you haven’t really played mesmer, what can you know about a class you don’t play?
and you want the class nerfed, so u want it to be bad at PvE and PvP both
Sure, yeah, that seems about right

you are bad and you cant beat a mesmer in PvP so, sure lets nerf it, that sounds right!

Stop complaining and go learn more about the game!

Soo… You are taking one of my statement, manipulate it to match your intentions and use it against me without even reading the posts I made before which answer your stupid personal attack.
Read all my previous posts and you get the answer to what you said, if you are too lazy to do that, please, don’t join the argument and don’t attack people.

Jungle Quack.1368:

Once again proving that you are in fact a bad player. If you actually bother to read the rest of the posts in this forum, very few people have a problem dealing with Moa Morph, and I have also stated ways in which I deal with the skill quite effectively. Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t make it broken.

And just FYI if you have Ctrl +T up on a mesmer and the BIG RED ICON suddenly disappears, you know exactly when he went into stealth and that there is a 98% chance that stealth will last exactly 3 seconds (the 2 most used stealth skills being the prestige and Decoy.) Between that and the casting time of Moa, its easy to figure out when to dodge or block.

To top it off, you also seem to believe that it is somehow HARDER to kill AI enemies that have discernible attack patterns than it is to kill a human player with a full skill bar and a functioning brain.

Exactly, what I’ve said make you think I’m a bad player? This is another stupid assumption you made about me.
If you bother to read the sPvP forum, you’ll see that many people have problems dealing with Moa Morph but not because it isn’t counterable, because it is overpowered, which, as I said almost hundred times, is different.

So, your effective way to counter Moa is spamming your precious 60 sec cooldown CC in the air or wasting one of your 2 dodges, that can be way more useful used on an hypothetical Thief/Warrior who is trying to burst you down at the same time, hoping that the Mesmer is still around the place he disappeared and he is casting Moa Morph on you. Wow, seems effective. Now, tell me which skill requires the same attention to be countered and, if not countered, makes you useless for 10 seconds and probably let you die.

I don’t believe that is harder to kill AI enemies than humans, again when did you understood that?

I know my english could be quite bad since it isn’t my mother language, but I didn’t think that people have so much difficulties to understand what I say.

About Necromancers, people are not building a team around them, they are building a team around one of their skill which is Epidemic.
Throw Epidemic away of the bar and none wants you.

tom.7468:

the reason why i posted this in pvp section is because all the cry for nerfs is in pvp not pve.
heard about preferences? right…that couldn’t be why could it?
nerf whatever you want with it in pvp just keep pve skills the same and its all good everyones happy.

Of course there are no cries in PvE about balancing, because people don’t feel it since it doesn’t ruin their game enjoyment.
You know, preferences vary between different people, but when everyone is looking for Guardians, it isn’t a matter of preferences.

Well, if they buff the overall damage output of Necromancer, I’m ok with a Lich Form revamp, but as it is now, Lich Form is the only way to deal damage.

tom.7468:

everyone can play every role. you can manage without a guardian in pve.

You said nothing. Yes, you can manage without a Guardian in PvE, but you are losing effectiveness. That’s because everyone looks for Guardians.

tom.7468:

i don’t know what is? did you play guild wars 1 when there was 600 smite monks which could solo every dungeon ? no well that’s overpowered in PVE. if you can destroy every guardian in pvp is that not good enough ? do they also need to become useless in pve so i can’t enjoy the game is that what your saying?

Dude, guardians are far from useless.
Guild Wars 2 is way different than Guild Wars. There aren’t builds like 600hp monk, 55hp or perma shadow form because the skill system is way different. The fact that people always want a Guardian in their team means it is indispensable and it is far from balanced, because real balance is when everyone can play every role they want and being all equally effective (as ANet said).
Guardians are OP both in PvE that in PvP, they need to be balanced, face with that.

Ryuujin.8236:

Now you are making considerations about the overall game balancing… my question is: have you tried other professions before saying that yours is not overpowered compared to them?

Yup, I have a 52 Guardian and a 65 Engineer besides my 80 mesmer. I won’t accuse them of face rolling, both classes do have some quite complex chains and theories behind getting the most out of them as I suspect is true of most classes, but engineer and guardian both do vastly more damage/have better support options, with far less effort.

I think you didn’t understand my question. I’ve asked if you tried all professions at least in sPvP/tPvP, that is the main gamemode in which game unbalancing is felt more strongly.
You are making another assumption. Guardians performs way too good at the moment, both in PvE that in PvP. You should know how guardians are requested in dungeon groups and in tPvP teams, which is a sign of a bad game balancing, considering that ANet wanted to put all professions at the same level.

Can’t talk about Engineer, because it is the only profession I didn’t try enough, but it doesn’t look like people are complaining about them being weak.

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it? The complains about Mesmers being OP are strictly related about sPvP/tPvP, which is a quite important game mode. They should split PvP and PvE balancing as they did in Guild Wars, where mesmers were in the same situation, they were extremely weak in PvE but extremely strong in PvP… They were nerfed in PvP and buffed in PvE!

I would like to invite you to try out Necromancers and Elementalists, the other 2 caster professions with Mesmer, to realize how game balancing is broken.

What? People are looking only for guardians in PvE groups, that’s not meant to be like that. If this isn’t a sign of guardians to be overpowered in PvE, I don’t know what is.

MaXi.3642:

@sorrow: it gives much more options then 2D space and it’s not the only one thing i mensioned

Yep, you mentioned also “average looking” which is not true, because it has great graphics if you compare that game in the period it was released, anyway much better than WoW.
You also mentioned “instanced”, which isn’t a real downside to everyone.
You forget to mention the near-perfect real-competitive PvP, the funny game modes and the PvP side-kicking system, which are the main things that make GW worth playing.

@MaXi: of course, Z axis is what makes a game a good game.

Zid.4196:

Yeah, but who judges the “effectiveness in the whole contest of every skills’ effectiveness”?

Anet devs? They did their best. They’ll continue to.

Popular QQs on the forums? If the average forum QQ has the skills of the average WvW QQ, I sincerely hope they never get to decide anything concerning the combat system.

Me? Even if I knew everything about the mesmer, and I don’t, I won’t bother leveling all the classes to 80 and equiping them in orange for a balanced WvW comparison.

The only people who might have the right context, and not yet, are the top spvp teams in the world. So when those get proven and have the time to consider countering the seemingly overpowered in the system as is, only then there will be a well judged “effectiveness in the whole contest of every skills’ effectiveness”.

The “effectiveness in the whole contest of every skills’ effectiveness” can be judged by just trying every professions. ArenaNet game designers need community feedback because they are just few people and their point of view is less objective compared to the point of view of a whole community.

No, you are making an assumption. Most of people who complains about game balancing are experienced PvPers. Of course there are some that are just unskilled and join the QQ without knowing what they are talking about, but they are few and I don’t feel to belong to that group.

Guess what? There is sPvP/tPvP to judge game balancing! In WvWvW you can’t realize the balancing situation because there are many factors that spoil objective considerations, like equipment differences, mass fights, untraited players and so on.
None is judging game balancing in WvWvW because it is impossible to do so.

Having a counter doesn’t mean that the skill isn’t overpowered. Also I think that also the best PvP team has less importance that the whole community complaining about some professions except, obviously, people who are playing these profession as main. You are assuming that everyone who is complaining is a bad player and this is highly arrogant from you, considering also that you haven’t checked in which situation other professions are.

Ryuujin.8236:

@Sorrow: Oh and to answer your earlier question about “how do i know you don’t play a mesmer” – you forget your posting logs are right there.

You are a self professed necro main, with a soft spot for thief and guardian kittencently started playing some mesmer. Even outside of the mesmer forum you seem to spend a lot of time complaining about them being imbalanced.

Nice one, but you didn’t consider that I said that I started playing mesmer days ago.
Take a look at Necro forum. There are a lot of topics of players that complains about that every thing a Necro do, there is another profession that do it better. You just searched my post and made assumptions about me, without even knowing what is behind what I do.

I’ve played Guild Wars a lot, I’ve learned that ArenaNet have fantastic game designers based on the great job they made balancing Guild Wars, so I started playing Guild Wars 2 assuming the balancing was fine like it was in Guild Wars. I started playing the Necromancer since the headstart and keep playing it getting better and better, at the start it was quite hard to playing effective. Than I take a look at the forum and I saw all the complains about unbalancing of Guardian, Thief and Mesmer. Before saying only a word, I’ve rerolled to these profession and deeply tried them out. I’ve performed way better than I did with my Necromancer I’ve always played without even needing to practice them, then I’ve realized that the complains were founded. So there was two things to do; dump my Necro and reroll to one of these professions as main exploiting game unbalancing or join the chours of complains trying to make this game better. I’ve chosen the second one. Most people have chosen the first one and it is proved by how many Thieves, Guardians and Mesmers are around in sPvP compared to other professions, but there are also some of them that play as a T/G/M to be competitive, but also complains about the objective opness they are affected.
Now you are making considerations about the overall game balancing… my question is: have you tried other professions before saying that yours is not overpowered compared to them?

Moa Morph is 2 seconds casting time, it can be easily casted in Stealth.
But, how can you guys call this an “obvious animation”?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cqTJ2RdjJg