Guild Wars 2

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Duel/Chaos/Chrono – Lockdown

Can’t see why this isn’t Dom/Cha/Chr. Dueling doesn’t add nearly as much to your lockdown as CS+PB.

Are you taking the line just for Duelist’s Discipline? We should compare Dom vs. Dueling as see if the former really lags behind the latter that much, as far as Magic Bullet’s cooldown goes. Alacrity/F5’s effect on optimal builds is the biggest question mark for this BWE.

Do we have any testers besides Tobasco, NICENIKESHOE, Jurica, Skcamow and Messiah?

I volunteer to try out Support/Bunker builds, since I’m curious about how effective those will be. Not sure exactly how much time I’ll have available, though, so make sure somebody else covers them as well.

It’s a Pull + Barrier, which is somehow totally different than three Pulls (slight hyperbole, it actually is different in some significant mechanical ways) and also not something that could ever be replicated on any other skill.

Staff+GS used to be the core of Double Ranged Shatter. The “meta” power shatter build uses Sword/X instead, but there’s no reason you can’t still do the Double Ranged Shatter variant. Change your Master tier choice in Dueling, and you’re good.

Keep in mind that Staff is more of a defensive weapon, but there’s nothing wrong with that inherently.

Mak.2657:

I give up.

You’re trying to argue balance with people who fundamentally do not give a flying kitten about balance.

Just throwing another one out there: What if the pulses immobilise enemies for a short duration (<= 1s)? Less flavourful than getting yanked toward the centre, but it doesn’t interrupt/stun and affected enemies can still blink out. And it’s still a “gravity” effect, too.

Robert Gee.9246:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.

Yeah, I can see that. Removing the pulls ends up causing the opposite problem, though, in that the CC portion of the skill is too easy to dodge out of now. And I don’t think the pulsing damage is threatening enough on its own to make the skill useful for area denial.

GW feels like a real schmuck bait skill right now. If you don’t know what it does and stand around for the whole thing, it feels really powerful. But anybody who does know what it does goes completely unpunished by it.

I like the “duality” concept that inspired the wells, but at the same time I think skills —especially elites -- need a clear use case. Time Warp is obvious, use it for stomps or to boost your team’s DPS. MI is for escaping or engaging from stealth. Moa is for turning people into Moas.

But what’s the use case for Gravity Well? Are you using it for a chance at a 2s stun if your opponent is dumb enough to stand in it? Or are you using it for pulsing stability?

I already covered the former case above — it’s schmuck bait, nobody who’s any good at the game will fall for it, and it’s never going to be better than Time Warp for PvE. The latter case is maybe useful in some situations, but it’s also really underwhelming for an Elite skill. Especially since Well of Precog already gives Stability on a shorter cooldown.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Or they could fix The Pledge first, and see if the problem goes away on its own.

^^^^^^^

That’s a fair point. If returning the pulls or adding Cripple isn’t on the table, then we should at least get a radius buff or something. As it stands, you can literally dodge out of Gravity Well and take 0 damage.

Oh, and just to respond back to the OP:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/mesmers-has-too-many-traits-made-baseline
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Why-do-mesmers-have-so-much-stealth

And those are just the Mesmer-specific threads in the first two pages of the PvP, both of which were started after the July 28 patch. I’m not counting threads with broader topics where people show up to complain about Mesmer, nor am I counting any of the threads or posts in this very subforum where non-Mesmers showed up to complain about how OP we are.

I’m wondering if GW even in its new, nerfier form doesn’t have a use in scaring enemies off a point. Like, a 2s Float is a big threat.

But that’s also pretty much the only thing it’s good for, and Time Warp threatens enemies with being Slowed for as long as they remain on point, rather than just being stunned once if they don’t dodge a telegraphed burst, sooo…

Sustained burst.

I think Fay’s point was that Thieves have almost no skills with a noticeable activation time. So it’s hard to even proc Powr Block on them in the first place, unless you get lucky, and even then you won’t get the recharge increase effect anyway.

Loboling.5293:

I joined a ranked, expecting to get owned, but we won, and I did awesome.

Ergo, I still think mesmers are OP

http://media.giphy.com/media/w8OOUniai4Gzu/giphy.gif

How are you getting 50s of Distortion, apharma? That build sounds like fun!

Objectively, the combo has been nerfed to a point where it should avoid further nerfs.

Subjectively, there are a lot of scrubs still crying to the heavens about how OP Mesmers are. So who the kitten knows what will happen?

I fully expect to see another patch that picks away at our optimal burst damage here and there, then eventually CS will get nerfed into the ground, with the result that our optimal burst will be harder to achieve and easier to counter, but the damage nerfs will not get reverted.

Gravity Well is pretty much only useful to chain-stun with an existing form of lockdown now. I think I would rather have seen the three pulls remain and the float effect removed.

One of the problems I’m having with theorycrafting Chronomancer is that there genuinely just doesn’t seem to be a lot of synergy between existing traits and what Chronomancer gives us.

Chrono can potentially do a lot of slowing, but nothing else we have directly interacts with slows. Chrono can get a big crit chance buff against slowed enemies, but it isn’t exactly hard to reach the crit cap as it is with Assassin/Rampager gear and Master Fencer. The AoE stun on Shield 5 is cool, but it’ll be much harder to use than Magic Bullet or CS+Power Lock. Nothing interacts with Wells except one trait in Chronomancer that everyone agrees is kind of weak sauce.

Really, the only exciting synergy it provides is taking Chrono+Illusion to shatter Phantasms.

Not sure what builds I’m gonna try out, but I’ll definitely be logging in for some testination this weekend. See y’all in the chat.

Huddi.8297:

You have a point. But is it worth a trait point then? I can’t think of any other traits that involve trade-offs. Usually they just give something, at no cost.

The classic example here would be Deceptive Evasion. Golden in a build that wants to generate clones on dodges, garbage in a build that wants to maintain three phantasms.

Desperate Decoy has the exact same problem, actually.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

Plus, I see no evidence that you’ll be able to actually get an interrupt in edgewise under the breakbar system any more often than under defiance. If the boss is stunned when the bar breaks, then it’s likely the bar will renew after the stun ends, giving you almost no window to catch the boss taking actions while vulnerable to cc. So you pretty much have to time it perfectly so that it’s your attack that actually breaks the bar, and only while the boss is taking an action.

Yup, exactly. Seems like we can look forward to — at best — one interrupt per Breakbar. And that’s if we get the last CC in. Which is dumb, because the whole point of the Breakbar was to eliminate the “only the last CC counts” nature of Defiance.

Silverkey.2078:

Well I perfectly agree with your analysis. And that is precisely why I think the current form of the trait does not fix the burst problem, it merely delays it. This adds a bit of counterplay as the opponent knows he needs to burst the phantasm immediately, but does not fix the core. Then again, in PvP, the second volley would rarely happen otherwise, so at least with this, there is a clear benefit from shattering.

The problem isn’t really having three Phantasms attack simultaneously. The problem is having three Phantasms attack simultaneously as your Mind Wrack is landing. 1s Daze solves that problem. Hopefully things like Protected Phantasms and Persisting Images will apply during the daze duration.

Jerus.4350:

Luck is not prestige.

Bingo. This is the fundamental flaw with all RNG-based rarity schemes. You can be the most dedicated, hardcore player ever and end up with nothing. Or you can waltz in and get something on your first try. There’s no prestige involved in that.

At least grinding dailies to get relics requires some kind of time commitment, even if it’s possible to quibble about exactly what level of commitment should be required.

The usefulness of this in PvE is yet to be established. I could see swapping out a couple of Assassin pieces for Zerk, if perma-slowing enemies ends up being a thing. (I suspect it won’t be a thing, though.)

For PvP, you’ve still got to land the five crits before your +30% crit comes online. Or else land a slow from some other means. And also trust that it won’t get cleansed. Which it probably won’t, since apparently most PvPers can’t even be bothered to slot a stun break, never mind condition cleanse. But Marauder will probably be the amulet of choice regardless, as it currently is for all non-condi Mesmer builds at the moment. Best case, this could let us swap out Sigil of Air for something else.

Agent Noun.7350:

And yeah, some of the phantasms currently only make sense as persistent skills. Perhaps the Phantasmal Defender and Disenchanter could be reworked as glamours, for example. But it isn’t perfect, you’re right.

You could also resolve this by giving Phantasms a set duration. For Weapon Phantasms, this would be equal to their attack rate, so they fire off one attack and then disappear. For utility Phantasms, this would have to be balanced against their cooldowns. Phantasmal Haste could then be modified to increase Phantasm duration instead, though it’d have to be long enough that Weapon Phantasm can get in a second attack.

NinjaEd.3946:

You realize that mantra of distraction has 2 casts right(3 if traited)? Add CS and it is a huge reason why people hate mesmers.

Ok, so then why is this thread about stealth?

That coupled with the fact that:

OMFG, Elementalists have TWENTY weapon skills on their bar at all times! So OP!

Pepsi.8907:

When there is such a big amount t of cries from the community about something being out of line, it usually is a sign that something is wrong.

Or, the majority of every PvP community is always a bunch of scrubs, in the Sirlin sense of the word: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

Sad to say, there are some people who play PvP and want to learn how to do it well. There are others who just want to hop in a screw around and expect the game to cater to them. The latter group will always get frustrated in a competitive game, even if it’s perfectly balanced, and they’ll usually hop on the forums to kitten about whatever the last thing that beat them was. See also: the Ele threads in this very forum.

Poxxia.1547:

Same. How can you not take two stun breaks in PvP? I even experimented with a build that used three. If you get stunned and don’t break it, you’re gonna die no matter what class your opponent is playing.

It’s an intriguing idea, to be sure. I think it could work, though it’d need a lot of rebalancing around cooldowns and effects.

Quibble about this “pro”, though:

Right now, if you’re in a boss fight in a dungeon and have a non-damaging phantasm up, you’re not using one of your illusion slots to add to your group’s DPS, and that’s slowing things down.

I understand the point you’re trying to make, but if Phantasms turn into single-attack summons, then none of our illusion slots will be adding to group DPS any more. Clones do essentially zero damage.

Currently, as far as providing damage, we have good burst and moderate sustain over a long period of time. Your change would completely knock out the moderate sustain over time portion unless it were accompanied by a rebalancing of our AA damage. Which I’d be fine with, I just don’t trust ANet to actually do it.

I also have concerns about the effectiveness of our utility Phantasms. pDefender, pDisenchanter, and iCaptainAmerica are only worth using if they stick around for a while. This is perhaps even more true of iWarden — yes, it has good DPS, but it’s mainly used for absorbing/reflecting projectiles. And then there’s the problem you pointed out with pMage.

You might be better off getting selfish with your Inspiration GM and grabbing Mental Defense instead. I don’t think that the regeneration from Illusionary Inspiration will be worth much. Unless the concept is that you’re sharing the Protection from Chaotic Dampening?

Xstein.2187:

With flow of time traited, this should give around 20 seconds of alacrity and 16 seconds of quickness, along with the other effects and damage tied to the traits. As previously stated, this time period should be plenty for most encounters.

It sounds like a lot, but the Chrono is going to be even less damage than usual for the first 10 seconds of the fight as they bring all those stacking buffs up. They still have to then summon their actual damage phantasms, by which time their Quickness is expiring already.

The real question, one that I don’t think can be answered until the beta weekend, is whether the team DPS from the shared Alacrity and Quickness makes up for pushing back the Mesmer’s “DPS online” time.

ASP.8093:

Honestly, I feel like they reverted it because they couldn’t figure out how to fix that second/third cast of Mender’s Purity otherwise. >.>

I would be completely unsurprised if this turned out to be the case.

I don’t have a specific build in mind, other than maybe a Chrono/Chaos/Insp bunker build for PvP. I’m not that great at PvP anyway, though, so I intend to spend most of my time experimenting with open world PvE builds.

Dunno about FGS, but I am noticing that half of my death recaps have Burning stacks at the top of the list, with all other sources of damage far behind it. But YMMV, and I’m not sure it’s specifically an Ele problem so much as the Burning damage formula being overtuned.

Deerbot.3152:

If it’s baselined, then how come the bounce counts for GS2 or staff1 are still the same as before the new trait system? I’m confused.

GS2 got nerfed on July 28. Staff1 should still have the full number of bounces.

Shadelang.3012:

Gods. the exageration here is REAL. Do you think your the only ones that reflect or something?

No, that’s not what Ithamir is saying. He’s saying that reflects are the only way for Mesmers to bring relevant DPS to Fractals.

Brazil even says that reflects on Lupicus are all he uses Mesmer for: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/page/1/m/6563292/viewthread/12497837-dnt-mesmer-build-specialization-update

The general argument that “you don’t need to be 100% optimal in GW2” obviously doesn’t apply to Fractals, since the whole point of them is to offer hardcore content. So Anet has a responsibility to not lock out entire classes from their hardcore content.

Sebbl.2806:

Bountiful Disillusionment is a great trait, btw. <3

I just can’t fit Chaos into my Scepter builds. Domination and Dueling are mandatory for dealing good damage in PvP, then you need Illusions to make Scepter work. I tried swapping out Domination for Chaos, but I just couldn’t secure any downs with that build.

Here’s what I’ve settled on now, it’s a hybrid/condition variant of Chaos’ build #2: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R3SFF;0VPV11y6BW-71;9;4STW;0158258148;41Kk64;1jwmAjwmA7q

I’ve been enjoying it a lot. It’s obviously not as bursty as the Power variant, but the conditions seem to make it a little more forgiving when you can’t afford to go all-in.

Padra.1678:

hot join

lol

Wolfey.3407:

Welcome back to Guild Wars 2, most people tend to complain about classes for a couple of reasons.
1) They do not understand how their class works
2) They refuse to learn how to counter them (I say about 60% of the time it’s this)
3) A class is legit broken mechanic wise (I say about 35% of the time)

…

Remember, DO NOT PLAY A CLASS BECAUSE IT’S CLAIMED TO BE OP… YOU ARE NOT HELPING YOUR SELF OUT ANY BY DOING SO… JUST SHORT TERM GRATIFICATION WITH LONG TERM DISSAPOINTMENT.

Thus has it always been for every PvP game ever. Great tips in the rest of the post, too.

Just admit that you know kitten-all about Mesmer and bow out of the discussion already.

TeuthidPurveyor.1970:

How does condi-phantasm work?

There’s some build discussion around this over here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/PvP-In-The-Lab-Phantasm-Mesmer/

Padra.1678:

(a mesmer can distort twice in a fight if it has to with shatter rechange at 50% health whereas a ranger can only get it once. Unless you give up two utility slots which would be stupid.)

Wow, not only do all Mesmers run the 6/6/6/6/6 build, we use traits that aren’t even in the game any more!

ASP.8093:

Oh, they’ll say that even if you’re not playing PU? That’s because they are scrubs of the highest order. Bad players have been complaining about being beaten by “OP” builds that you’re not even running since time immemorial.

You mean you haven’t figured out how to get the 6/6/6/6/6 build?

I’m not here to play misery poker about how I am the best because I play a garbage class but still gets kills sometimes. I’m here for sharp-edged glass butterflies and the interrupts and the jukes and the sheer beauty and joy of it all.

Amen! Preach it!

The specialization patch had a lot of rough edges (because it involved rewriting nearly all the traits), but it completely revitalized the class. But in order for mesmer to stay that way, it needs balance patches that actually hit the broken stuff, not everything else first and then the broken stuff only after everyone is reduced to a slowly-shrinking gimmick build that’s still held up by its never-nerfed core gimmick. (Anet tends to do this, unfortunately.)

This, times infinity.

I’ve actually been having a good time with a condi/phantasm build that uses Scepter/Pistol+Sword/Sword. Your bleeds and confusion hurt quite a bit and really punish inattentive enemies. In order to have respectable damage, though, you need to use Rampager amulet, which means you’re super glassy and need to really lean on your active defenses. (Rune of the Undead makes up for it a teeny bit.)

Staff as a second weapon can make you pretty tanky if you go down Chaos. There’s might be a good build in there based on Rabid.

You lose 100% of the matches you don’t play. “Broken builds” or not, there’s no excuse for AFK.

The punishment for leaving/AFKing needs to be a lot stronger.

Windwalker.7421:

Oh HoT will be so awesome, we’ll get to see in what creative ways they’ll nerf Chrono into uselessness 2 weeks after release!…or maybe even before it ships!

They’ll decide that F5 and Alacrity were too powerful and remove both without adding any other features.

AlphatheWhite.9351:

All of this is subject to the caveats that Fay mentioned, so any fight that shreds phantasms cuts your dps enormously.

One nice thing about a condition Phantasm build over power Phantasm is that any damage stacks from Sharper Images/Duelist’s Discipline will continue doing damage even after your Phantasms get killed. (Really missing the revamped Confusing Combatants we were originally going to get instead of Master Fencer.)

ASP.8093:

Double-dipping MoD is only potent because you can make it a 1.25-second stun, which makes it really easy to burst. But even then you seldom needed to double-dip since the first 2-3 tended to be enough to secure a kill.

Yup. The more I think about it, the more I think Confounding Suggestions just needs to be nuked from orbit. I just doubt ANet’s ability to balance it directly, and leaving it in will cause them to nerf the rest of our kit more and more until we’re totally useless for anything but dropping Mantra stuns on people. At which point, CS will finally get removed and then we’ll be just full on useless.

I’d rather they nuke CS now and leave us in an an unnecessarily-weakened state than nuke CS later and leave us in a totally kittened state.

Sinister looks pretty good for PvE, then, if your calculations are accurate.

Any idea how long it takes to ramp up to the full DPS?

Solori.6025:

It’s kinda basically what me and some other’s were afraid would happen.
We tell Anet what needs to be nerfed.
They nerf 3 other things that don’t need to be nerfed, then nerf everything else afterwards.

Exactly.

tobascodagama.2961:

I like your style, CA. Build #2 sounds like a lot of fun. I’ve actually just been thinking about builds using Sc+P/Sw. I can see why you’d prefer Sw/Sw as your second set, though, that Blurred Frenzy evade is too good to pass up.

I’m kind of curious to see how Rabid/Rampager stack up vs. Marauder in this kind of a build. Shame that Rampager is so glassy, because otherwise it seems perfectly suited.

Messed around a teeny bit last night, so I have a few thoughts. Sc/P + Sw/Sw is the way to go. I tried with Scepter mainhand on both sets, and targets are just too slippery without either the Swap/Immob from Sword 3 or the stun from Confounding Suggestions.

I also tried out a Rabid amulet, and I frankly wasn’t impressed. It just doesn’t deal enough damage. I suspect Rampager will be too glassy, but I’ll try it out tonight. Marauder with a condition rune/sigil set may be the way to go if you want a hybrid build.

Xyonon.3987:

TL;DR:
The cd should be per charge and not for the whole mantra. If you want a cheaper solution to program: Just reduce the CD to 0 again and weaken the healing mantra a bit, since it honestly was the only op one of all mantras.

This is a really clever solution to the problem, actually. I think it splits the difference nicely between the QoL buff of background recharge and the degenerate case of spamming six dazes/stuns in a row.