Guild Wars 2

Mo Mo.1947:

The new system is MUCH different from the current system and we haven’t gotten a chance to feel it out and see how it will end up.

All the OP’s examples are centered around the way the current system and traits work, but the new systems function and trait details are getting totally overhauled.

You can’t make a valid arguement against apples by complaining about oranges.

No, you are wrong mister.
The new system is totally based on current system. There is a change, some tweaks and merges but this is still trait system of 5 lines with multiple traits. The difference is at the end the range of choice is going to be much lower.

But some skips are intended, even Hrouda said this.

EcoRI.9273:

It will be nice if each specialization gets the same amount of %damage modifiers or just completely remove them as mentioned earlier in this thread. I really don’t like how at the moment in most cases there is 1 definitive “core” dps build where it is a no brainer to spec into specializations with the most DPS modifiers. It would be nice if thieves can spec more dodge or more initiatives without having to worry about which line has more dps. %damage modifier traits pigeon hole builds as they do create optimal builds instead of builds that create playstyle variety..

So you want to delete dps spec to make wannabe healing/support spec important?

DiogoSilva.7089:

“There’s no such thing as lazy players”.

This is a lie because for example I am a player and I am very lazy. But I don’t deny other people right to not be as lazy as me so when something is taken away to cater lazy audience I am and always will be against it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

(Veteran) Players have this idea that more options, in videogames, makes them intrinsically better. Well, that’s not exactly how it works. Games have proved once and once again that offering a massive amount of “customisation options” only leads to a graveyard/ pile of filler. It makes any game a lot less user-friendly, and it adds a lot of clutter, for no meaningful gain.

It’s not by chance that game design has been evolving out of this. It’s not because players are “stupid”. It’s because focusing on quality over quantity pays off.

A highly customisation system that only allows for 1-2 virtually optimal builds gives the illusion of something that is not, and has a high barrier of entry for the sake of something that does not happens (diversity).

A lesser customisation system that, in theory, can allow for as many virtually optiomal builds, if not more thanks to easier balancing, only gets to gain by being naturally more elegant, user friendly and clearly focused.

Yes, if we were to stirp all options from gaming, we would be left with interactive movies. But the opposing extreme does not leads to anywhere either. There must exist some sort of balance, between enough meaningful options to make players happy with customisation, while at the same time not overloading the game with those options so devs can have an easier time to maintain the quality of those options. It’s a win-win scenario if/ when done right.

And the new specialization system will still offer that balance. With 3 different traits per tier, and a selection of 3 tiers out of 6, players will still be able to adapt their characters to the style they most like. It won’t be a highly detailed level of customisation anymore, but the meaningful number of builds that will exist out of it will not be any less. Probably, we’ll get more optimal builds because trait stats are no longer an obstacle, trait replacement will no longer be so arbitrary, and the gap between better and worse traits will be a lot shortened.

On a final note, many of the examples the OP has given are flawed by themselves. One such example is the one given for the staff elementalist. The fact that the build itself is already based on “camping Fire attunement after the initial rotation” does not helps, but if we disregard that, the reason why a staff elementalist goes 6-2-2-2-2 is to collect as many damage modifiers as possible. There’s no diversity in here, just maximizing. With the new trait system, a staff elementalist will be able to, for example, get two damage modifiers from water magic spec alone.

I can say what you said much more forum friendly: “games are getting more stupid so lazy new players don’t have to learn them so we can sell more boxes; p.s. who cares about veterans, they’ve already paid”

see? I said the same without wall of text

There will be no new weapons with the expansion.

Arena Net is not obligated to “must” do anything.

start at least with checking the very same page of the forum you’re posting

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-IS-the-end-game-content/

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

It is a gamble only because there is no party system. There should be. People who open parties should be protected and have control over their parties.

why should starting a team put you above the rules? cant someone who started a party be as abuse as someone joining the party?

if we had no abuse problem we wouldnt need a kick in the first place after all.

Because opening a party is like opening a room for other people, if they join and don’t match the rules of the party, they should be kicked. If they feel like they want to be bosses they can make their own room and lead other.

There are people who like to lead, there are those who like to follow. People are not equal, time to leave rainbow pony dimension some people think they live in.

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

New players are already being kicked with rangers and necros alike. And answer for them would be the same as it is now – create your own “everybody welcome” group.

You act like there are 5 new players or that veterans are obligated to cater to them Knowledge bomb – they don’t have to, it’s not my job to carry a new player. I learned the game by myself and I don’t want to waste my time teaching others. There are people willing to teach and share knowledge, more power to them. It’s their choice to do so as my choice is to avoid and kick new/bad players on sight.

Of course it is your job to cater to new players. Thats the whole point of a team.. you help them out. A team isnt made up of tools you can use just to get what you personally desire. If you decide to PUG you know fully well its a gamble sometimes you get good people, sometimes you get inexperienced people, once they’re in your team, they’re in your team and you have to care for them for better or for worst. Thats the fair and the right thing to do.

Or are you going to claim that if 3 players who are more experianced then you join your team you’re okey with them kicking you out if they feel they dont want to teach / carry you? Would you feel what you want to do to others is okey if it happens to you?

Ultimately you have to remember that you’re playing in an MMO… MMOs are about people not individuals. If you want to have a specific version of party, you’re free to do that but it is something you have to do and not something the game has to support because excluding people based on whatever goes against the very nature of team play. If anyone has to go out of their way to get what they want it should be people who want to restrict and not like you suggest the new players who all they want is to play with others and have fun which is the very target MMOs try to accomplish.

Once I get paid for carrying new/bad players we can resume this illogical discussion.

cocowoushi.7150:

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

reapex.8546:

AP being a requirement isn’t a good fix imo. Anet has stated, they would rather not segregate their dungeon community and this is one of the reasons why we don’t have Hard Mode dungeons (like in GW1).

Ap measure is stupid, I agree.
But as I wrote earlier there should be a requirements filter (similar to TP filter maybe?) where you choose dungeon path, level, profession, gear rarirty and maybe gear prefix (however I dunno about last one because some people mix gear) so only people that fill the req can see LFG

Please consider the consequences of what you’re asking for. This would at best create long queue times for new players, at worst make it impossible for them to find a group for a dungeon.

People who like to play a necro/ranger will find it hard to find a group.

What about people who dont go for ascended gear or maybe not even full exotics?

This change will drive people away! and for what? so that people get to finish a dungeon a few minutes quicker?

If you want a specific set of filters for your team create your own group. The LFG tool is there so people can find other people to play with. Restricting their pool based on filters would make the system worst not better.

This. Either ask friends/guildies if you don’t want to “take the risk” of asking strangers to your party. Does it suck that OP lost their progress? Of course. Should they have understood that people joining is basically a blind grab bag? Yes. Assuming that AP = skill/ experience and denying people spots before even giving them a chance? Also dumb.

It is a gamble only because there is no party system. There should be. People who open parties should be protected and have control over their parties.

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

reapex.8546:

AP being a requirement isn’t a good fix imo. Anet has stated, they would rather not segregate their dungeon community and this is one of the reasons why we don’t have Hard Mode dungeons (like in GW1).

Ap measure is stupid, I agree.
But as I wrote earlier there should be a requirements filter (similar to TP filter maybe?) where you choose dungeon path, level, profession, gear rarirty and maybe gear prefix (however I dunno about last one because some people mix gear) so only people that fill the req can see LFG

Please consider the consequences of what you’re asking for. This would at best create long queue times for new players, at worst make it impossible for them to find a group for a dungeon.

People who like to play a necro/ranger will find it hard to find a group.

What about people who dont go for ascended gear or maybe not even full exotics?

This change will drive people away! and for what? so that people get to finish a dungeon a few minutes quicker?

If you want a specific set of filters for your team create your own group. The LFG tool is there so people can find other people to play with. Restricting their pool based on filters would make the system worst not better.

New players are already being kicked with rangers and necros alike. And answer for them would be the same as it is now – create your own “everybody welcome” group.

You act like there are 5 new players or that veterans are obligated to cater to them Knowledge bomb – they don’t have to, it’s not my job to carry a new player. I learned the game by myself and I don’t want to waste my time teaching others. There are people willing to teach and share knowledge, more power to them. It’s their choice to do so as my choice is to avoid and kick new/bad players on sight.

Tachenon.5270:

Remember when they said:

“We want it to be much easier to experiment with and learn new builds as you explore the world of Tyria.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/

Remember what we actually got with the trait system redesign? Remember the big thread about it? Remember the dev responses in that thread? Remember the new thread about it, and the dev responses there? Remember how NPE was subject to ‘over a year’s worth of testing’ and yet still managed to wreak havoc on the personal story, among other things? Remember how long its taken for them to get around to doing anything positive or constructive about any of this?

Why would anyone here think this is going to be any different?

dunno, the game is in beta state for 3 years to me, I kinda got used to it and stopped buying gems.

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

The amount of self entitlement to steal other people progress, ignore their requirement and demanding of being carried for new players is amazing. No wonder this game is growing a bias of the worst community in every MMO. So called casual (lazy) people in this game have no respect for other people efforts. They steal, abuse and dare to call people who put an effort in their play to be elitists. They don’t care to learn how combat works or ask how to defeat a boss. They just come into instance and expect to be rewarded.

This is where the designers of this game failed. With their design they punish people who actually make this game easier for scrubs yet reward kitteners who expect everything to be given on silver plate.

New generations of players are [insert you favourite insults, they’ll fit]

Not a single person has said anything much less pushed for stealing progress. I am sorry but what you’re trying to do is twist what happened into a narrative that is trying to justify the person creating the party acting inappropriately.

What you are doing mister is trying to absolve obvious abusers and make OP look bad. This is suspicious.

Galen Grey.4709:

Subutex.2416:

Galen Grey.4709:

Of course so is what they did not saying they acted correctly by kicking her out.

But that’s what this thread is about. This mechanic allows for people to do this and it shouldn’t, he should not lose his instance progress.

The thread is about the party mechanic being unfair and its not. Starting the party / doing progress doesnt make you immune to the rules. If you act inappropriately the kicking mechanic allow members of the party to defend themselves. There is nothing unfair about that.

The unfair part is that OP was kicked from his own instance. There is NO party mechanic in GW2. There is a party and a lfg tool. Both are underdeveloped and open to abuses.

The OP was robbed from his effort, progress and reward. Defending those three abusing rats that kicked him from his own party makes you look very very suspicious to me.

I use both copper and silver salvage-o-matics. Copper for trash and silver for rares. Those are two amazing QoL items I didn’t hesitated to buy.

They don’t even read this thread, why bother asking.

maddoctor.2738:

tramwajarz.2369:

Belenwyn.8674:

How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?

I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.

They changed how traits work multiple times, it makes sense for them to be waiting for the traits to become stable before releasing save / load trait functionality. Let’s all hope this trait change is the last one so save / load might become a reality soon as well.

Btw, this is from the AMA thread:

This also means we’ll be going over every single trait in their current iteration in our development environment

Let’s hope it means more than just the Water Magic traits, if they show us a good variety of them we will be able to discuss actual build variety and choice tomorrow.

Yeah, I expect it’s time for this game to move from beta state, after 3 years you know.

This is why this game can’t be better. They are changing all the time core functions, everything is being blowed up and created again. This is why we have no content for 3 years. Because they seem to have no plan.

Belenwyn.8674:

How many builds are you using each day? hundreds or thousands? Which fraction of the currently available build pool, are you using each day? 1%, 20% or 80%? How many builds have you played and tested so far? 5k or over 20k?

I would use at least 3 builds a day if we got build templates. However a core feature of GW1 seems to be impossible for developers to execute in the sequel.

reapex.8546:

AP being a requirement isn’t a good fix imo. Anet has stated, they would rather not segregate their dungeon community and this is one of the reasons why we don’t have Hard Mode dungeons (like in GW1).

Ap measure is stupid, I agree.
But as I wrote earlier there should be a requirements filter (similar to TP filter maybe?) where you choose dungeon path, level, profession, gear rarirty and maybe gear prefix (however I dunno about last one because some people mix gear) so only people that fill the req can see LFG

In GW2 all builds are viable because the game is based on “everybody wins” principle.
There will always be 1-3 OP/optimal builds for every profession in every game.
The problem is players cry about being forced to play one way or another by other players while now arena net is doing the same thing.

maddoctor.2738:

tramwajarz.2369:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

Tank.7821:

Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…

Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.

you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.

people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.

It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.

wait what?
since when taking away options from players is better?

Taking away options nobody ever used is actually making the game better. Also, you are seeing it as them removing options, I see it as them adding more options and removing others. Having 3 trait lines at maximum can easily make new builds and options available.

also killing all the options you could use with 1-3 points put in trait lines now, predefining builds in core design

maddoctor.2738:

Ocosh.5843:

People performing the calculations should remember that in the new system as proposed, there is no decision to be made as to the extent to invest in a given trait line; you are fully committed to only three. There is no more 02615 or 10463 or even 46040. You will be 6-6-6, or, to put it another way: You have A B C D E (F). Choose three.

Furthermore, builds today have the choice of 6 traits at the adept level, 10 at the master, and 13 at the grandmaster (and we use these options). A 6-point line today can feature some several hundred combinations of traits (6*9*11 is 594, but that includes repetitions; someone not in a hurry can provide the actual number). A given trait line in the future will have 27 permutations.

I think that Loboling above hit it on the head. The difference is that WoW had mathematically-demonstrable, indisputable optimum builds for defined roles. Skill/Trait election was an empty exercise. GW2 was a more nuanced game. I keep trying to see things in a positive light, but I see the changes and keep hearing: “Thinking is hard! Our players are stupid! This will be fun and exciting and fun!” Please don’t let us down, GW2.

But how many of those choices were actually viable and playable builds? It’s the same debate as the GW1 vs GW2 skill system, sure GW1 had way more skills, but the amount of viable and “good” builds wasn’t as high as someone might expect with so many skills available.

GW1 pvx wiki got almost 200 builds for PvE only.
Gw2 metabattle has 10-20 builds.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

Tank.7821:

Diversity is confusing to new players therefore it needs to be removed…

Yeah they are confused and use bad useless traits and builds. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn’t good for any game.

you cant get real diversity with out having options some people dont like. lowering the amount of options does not intrinsicly increase the quality of options.

people are mistakenly linking having less options to having better options. There is no coorelation between number of options, and how good your options are.

It’s not a mistake. Less options available can be more easily balanced, so less options can also be better options.

wait what?
since when taking away options from players is better?

The amount of self entitlement to steal other people progress, ignore their requirement and demanding of being carried for new players is amazing. No wonder this game is growing a bias of the worst community in every MMO. So called casual (lazy) people in this game have no respect for other people efforts. They steal, abuse and dare to call people who put an effort in their play to be elitists. They don’t care to learn how combat works or ask how to defeat a boss. They just come into instance and expect to be rewarded.

This is where the designers of this game failed. With their design they punish people who actually make this game easier for scrubs yet reward kitteners who expect everything to be given on silver plate.

New generations of players are [insert you favourite insults, they’ll fit]

Lishtenbird.2814:

…

I feel depressed. I get the feeling you’re close to 100% right about this.

My guess is the Lupi change appeared due to hit box bug some players report in other places like living story boss at the end of the season. What I can’t understand is why they can’t simple answer that it’s a bug and that they’re going to fix it. For me their creditibility at this point is very low, they act like they have no idea what happened and how to fix it.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us has hard data backing up our claims and focus instead on a more productive and thought provoking discussion about possible ways roles could be handled in the game.

The fact that game isn’t bankrupt is a fact of being succesful the way it is.

That’s a false dichotomy. Not bankrupt /= successful. Financial success is a spectrum, not a binary. The whole reason they’re releasing the expansion is to bring in more revenue, and they are trying to overhaul things people are unhappy with and shore up some of the game’s weaker systems to generate more interest and bring back lapsed players.

Of course they do. This is how MMOs are made. Release, patches, expansions and some tweaks here and there. A total overhaul of combat system is not what we’re getting with HoT.

It’s not really what I’m suggesting either; I’m not sure why you think it is. A few new skills, a few improvements to existing skills, and improved attribute options for gearing is pretty much what I’m suggesting.

You are trying to cripple people not geared properly to suffer from weaker support abilities. This is how old mmos work, this is bad.

You can’t simultaneously be really good at everything, it defeats the purpose of having builds and Anet clearly wants to have build diversity. MMOs need to have build options to have compelling game-play.

There is already a build diversity. Their mentality is “everybody is a winner” and it is executed with PvE where every build can beat it. There are builds that require more skill and organisation to succeed faster, there are builds allowing you to facetank champions and finish encounter. Both sides get same rewards. There is everything good with build diversity in GW2. No one is forced to play support or dps, you can be all at once. What you;re suggesting is limiting, taking away options.

Khisanth.2948:

tramwajarz.2369:

Oxidia.8103:

I guess everybody is so fast to forget so many times in the past when party leader rage quit and everybody was kicked from the instance. Also the fact instance owners had tendency to be gluteuses just because they couldn’t be kicked.

On the other hand situation like presented in the OP most likely wouldnt happen because kids that joined OP didnt want to loose half finished instance.

That is just playing musical chairs with the various problems.

No it isnt

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us has hard data backing up our claims and focus instead on a more productive and thought provoking discussion about possible ways roles could be handled in the game.

The fact that game isn’t bankrupt is a fact of being succesful the way it is.

That’s a false dichotomy. Not bankrupt /= successful. Financial success is a spectrum, not a binary. The whole reason they’re releasing the expansion is to bring in more revenue, and they are trying to overhaul things people are unhappy with and shore up some of the game’s weaker systems to generate more interest and bring back lapsed players.

Of course they do. This is how MMOs are made. Release, patches, expansions and some tweaks here and there. A total overhaul of combat system is not what we’re getting with HoT.

It’s not really what I’m suggesting either; I’m not sure why you think it is. A few new skills, a few improvements to existing skills, and improved attribute options for gearing is pretty much what I’m suggesting.

You are trying to cripple people not geared properly to suffer from weaker support abilities. This is how old mmos work, this is bad.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us has hard data backing up our claims and focus instead on a more productive and thought provoking discussion about possible ways roles could be handled in the game.

The fact that game isn’t bankrupt is a fact of being succesful the way it is.

That’s a false dichotomy. Not bankrupt /= successful. Financial success is a spectrum, not a binary. The whole reason they’re releasing the expansion is to bring in more revenue, and they are trying to overhaul things people are unhappy with and shore up some of the game’s weaker systems to generate more interest and bring back lapsed players.

Of course they do. This is how MMOs are made. Release, patches, expansions and some tweaks here and there. A total overhaul of combat system is not what we’re getting with HoT.

Thuggernaut.1250:

This sounds like good news, and might help break up the zerker meta.

prepare to be disappointed

IndigoSundown.5419:

tramwajarz.2369:

IndigoSundown.5419:

tramwajarz.2369:

Aenaos.8160:

chemiclord.3978:

It sounds like the goal is that instead of grinding EotM to gain levels and skill points, they’re trying to encourage players to explore and find these hero challenges while they level characters.

Yeah .Skill challenges are in very secretive and hard to reach places and they require some
10 sec to be completed.A truly heroic task.

1 skill challenge ok
10 skill challenges ok
300 skill challenges for someone who’s not into exploration is a terrible grind

Good thing then that map completion currently only offers 202…

OMG THANK YOU THIS IS SO IMPORTANT

how does this change my point?

We’re establishing where on the 0-300 continuum your threshold lies.

Who’s we?

Einlanzer.1627:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

It’s intuitively obvious – the game’s core community and dev attention centers around PvP when player numbers have plummeted since launch, and they fired the dungeon guy with no attention given to dungeons in well over a year due to dungeons not being very popular among the player base.

You obviously aren’t open-minded to have this discussion, though, so I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

So, open-minded equals “agrees with Einlanzer?”

Every MMO hemorrhages players over time. What evidence do you have that lower player numbers in GW2 are due to players not enjoying the PvE dynamics, or that “most players” do not enjoy them? Everyone I know who has left did so for two other reasons: lack of content or dissatisfaction with PvP. I’m open minded, but I’m not gullible. Prove your assertions — or don’t use them as justifications.

You’re doing nothing different than I am. You are simply assuming the veracity of the claim that everyone loves the current status quo. Let’s just acquiesce that neither of us has hard data backing up our claims and focus instead on a more productive and thought provoking discussion about possible ways roles could be handled in the game.

The fact that game isn’t bankrupt is a fact of being succesful the way it is.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

So you have no data so your claims of “most players” not liking anything has no evidence. That’s pathetic.

You mean other than the fact that Anet doesn’t support dungeons because nobody plays them, and that poor PvE is sited by a large number of both current and former players?

I agree that Anet doesnt support dungeons. The rest of this is your speculation supported with 0 data, 0 evidence, 0 quotes. We dont know why they do this, we can only guess. The difference is I’m not trying to make such silly assumptions as you do and sell them as facts.

What I can tell – the game is selling, new players are showing up, some people go, some people stay. The game is not scrapped from production, therefore it must be doing good the way it is which means a complete revamp and change of direction you’re suggesting is like saying to those who like current state “f*** you” and gamble if more players stay or leave.

If you don’t like how the game works you should change the game. You can suggest some tweaks, improvements, but suggesting a combat/gear overhaul is ridiculous. It’s like making a new game.

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

Galen Grey.4709:

What’s this idea that whoever starts the instance/party somehow is more important, all knowing, gets choice of life and death (okey exaggerating a bit but the underling point stands) ?

Your party members are your companions, your team etc.. they’re not your employees or your personal soldiers. (talking in general not to anybody specific).

When someone Joins your team, you’re not doing them a favor by allowing them to tag along… if anything they’re doing you a favor by helping you out with whatever your doing.

This talk of I should dictate who joins or not, or I should be able to kick people off the team but they cannot do the same to me and stuff is frankly exactly what thank gods of game design Arenanet made sure to avoid.

As for OP I dont know what happened but I have a feeling those 3 additions were not friends… if 3 friends want to do dungeons they’d start their own party most likely and the chances that they all join the same group at the same time is kinda difficult.

As for why they all agreed to kick you off the team is probably because you made them feel like you were going to kick them off the team for not fitting your criteria and they did it preemptively themselves. You probably made them feel insecure when you asked them to change to heavies one of them start the kick, the other two figured it may be unfair but if they dont agree probably it will be them off the team hence they agreed.

He got kicked from his own half finished instance. he’s the victim, not those 3 stealing instance rats.

This is why current system is terrible. You start an instance, you look for a party on lfg, you get kicked. This is madness, a crime to logic and rational thinking.

The world is not black and white.

Sure he its not fair that he got kicked out of his own instance. 100% agreed.

Would it be fair if he kicked those 3 off for the simple reason they didnt play the classes he approved off? dont think that would be fair either.

Do I believe it was fair for them to kick him out if he was going to kick them off himself? no, they should have at least discussed it first. Thats exactly the thing here. No one should act like they own a party because no one owns a party. A team has to work together and there shouldnt be any demands of any kind.

The system is designed to support exactly that. There is no madness or crime to logic here. The party starting the group was likely perceived as trying to abuse his standing by demanding changes of them and the party protected themselves by kicking him out. I still dont think OP deserved to be kicked out, especially after doing so much work already but I do think he shouldnt have demanded that everyone should bring a heavy.

Actually he did half the path on his own. If those 3 didnt want to at least try to appeal to his request, he should be able to deal with them OR AT LEAST BE IMMUNE TO THEIR KICK FROM HIS OWN INSTANCE.

Why? strictly speaking he needed “them” more then they needed him. its “them” cause naturally it could have been any other 3 people.

Its like your car breaks down and you need a lift to somewhere but when someone offers to take you, you tell them to get a different type of car. (not a perfect analogy since naturally those 3 benefited from helping him more then someone giving you a lift would benefit) but still they’re helping him out and without help he is likely stuck. Why should he be entitled to any special treatment? (demanding stuff / Untouchable)

Gw2 is a game designed to be as inclusive as possible, people just shouldnt force other players to focus on 2 professions and ignore the other 6 or they just cant join the fans. That is just wrong. Now most of the times they get their way. Sometimes they dont. This was one case where they didnt.

Now maybe its not the case, maybe OP never intended to kick anyone even if they refused to change and if thats the case then this is really sad, but if he did intend to kick anyone refusing to comply then this is more like poetic justice.

So the game designed for inclusive doesnt allow me to control MY party, however 3 random rats can come and steal MY instance and MY progress? Wow, that’s kitten good argument against democracy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

tramwajarz.2369:

Aenaos.8160:

chemiclord.3978:

It sounds like the goal is that instead of grinding EotM to gain levels and skill points, they’re trying to encourage players to explore and find these hero challenges while they level characters.

Yeah .Skill challenges are in very secretive and hard to reach places and they require some
10 sec to be completed.A truly heroic task.

1 skill challenge ok
10 skill challenges ok
300 skill challenges for someone who’s not into exploration is a terrible grind

Good thing then that map completion currently only offers 202…

OMG THANK YOU THIS IS SO IMPORTANT

how does this change my point?

Shaogin.2679:

tramwajarz.2369:

Shaogin.2679:

tramwajarz.2369:

Shaogin.2679:

We’re all aware of the Ele and Engi’s capability of being a jack-of-all-trades. I think what the op is trying to get across is his concerns that the Ele out-shines all other professions due to having a vital role in literally every game mode meta out there, where as other professions will shine in some game modes and lack in others. Level of skill required is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion and let’s be honest, often over-exaggerated.

This is true only for necromancer. Every other profession is viable in every game mode.

Viable sure. Vital to the meta, no. Can an Engineer play a role in a WvW zerg? Sure. Will he be as effective as an Elementalist? No. Just an example.

Why can’t he be as effective? Engis are very similar to elementalists.

Similar, not the same. And not going into depth and off topic with that discussion. Just search the WvW forums for information on the GWEN meta that has existed for quite some time.

Of course they are not the same. Nor should they. What’s the point of professions if they would be the same? I agree that elementalists are good in many cases but they are not alpha and omega of this game.

Galen Grey.4709:

tramwajarz.2369:

Galen Grey.4709:

What’s this idea that whoever starts the instance/party somehow is more important, all knowing, gets choice of life and death (okey exaggerating a bit but the underling point stands) ?

Your party members are your companions, your team etc.. they’re not your employees or your personal soldiers. (talking in general not to anybody specific).

When someone Joins your team, you’re not doing them a favor by allowing them to tag along… if anything they’re doing you a favor by helping you out with whatever your doing.

This talk of I should dictate who joins or not, or I should be able to kick people off the team but they cannot do the same to me and stuff is frankly exactly what thank gods of game design Arenanet made sure to avoid.

As for OP I dont know what happened but I have a feeling those 3 additions were not friends… if 3 friends want to do dungeons they’d start their own party most likely and the chances that they all join the same group at the same time is kinda difficult.

As for why they all agreed to kick you off the team is probably because you made them feel like you were going to kick them off the team for not fitting your criteria and they did it preemptively themselves. You probably made them feel insecure when you asked them to change to heavies one of them start the kick, the other two figured it may be unfair but if they dont agree probably it will be them off the team hence they agreed.

He got kicked from his own half finished instance. he’s the victim, not those 3 stealing instance rats.

This is why current system is terrible. You start an instance, you look for a party on lfg, you get kicked. This is madness, a crime to logic and rational thinking.

The world is not black and white.

Sure he its not fair that he got kicked out of his own instance. 100% agreed.

Would it be fair if he kicked those 3 off for the simple reason they didnt play the classes he approved off? dont think that would be fair either.

Do I believe it was fair for them to kick him out if he was going to kick them off himself? no, they should have at least discussed it first. Thats exactly the thing here. No one should act like they own a party because no one owns a party. A team has to work together and there shouldnt be any demands of any kind.

The system is designed to support exactly that. There is no madness or crime to logic here. The party starting the group was likely perceived as trying to abuse his standing by demanding changes of them and the party protected themselves by kicking him out. I still dont think OP deserved to be kicked out, especially after doing so much work already but I do think he shouldnt have demanded that everyone should bring a heavy.

Actually he did half the path on his own. If those 3 didnt want to at least try to appeal to his request, he should be able to deal with them OR AT LEAST BE IMMUNE TO THEIR KICK FROM HIS OWN INSTANCE.

SimenAaserud.3598:

You won’t only get “two more skills” bro.. This will work as the thief most likely.
Use a sword, apply a pistol in offhand and the sword skills change. Apply a dagger in offhand and the skills change. This will work as with the mesmer for example when using a sword, and applies the shield. He will get all 3 new skills on the sword. + traits + new utilities +++++
It’s fair, np.

Where did you get this nonsense?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

phys.7689:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/reimagining-progression-the-mastery-system/
Because the Mastery training bar completely replaces the experience bar, players who’ve reached level 80 will no longer gain levels but will instead train Masteries. This means characters that have reached level 80 will no longer gain skill points through leveling. Skill points will be added as rewards across high-level content to offset this change.

that probably got revised, they are getting rid of skill points now.
they basically said skill points will be from skill point challenges only now. (and your first 80 levels)

i dont doubt they will have some new skill point challenges, or some old content may now be skill point challenges.

That would mean that it was rethought over and revamped within the last 46 days as that article was released on Feb 5th. I think it’s more likely they just didn’t tell us the details of the new skill points rather than scrapping and redoing them after posting that blog.

Ot they didnt want to reveal “hero points” term to avoid speculation. You know, crowd control.

Shaogin.2679:

tramwajarz.2369:

Shaogin.2679:

We’re all aware of the Ele and Engi’s capability of being a jack-of-all-trades. I think what the op is trying to get across is his concerns that the Ele out-shines all other professions due to having a vital role in literally every game mode meta out there, where as other professions will shine in some game modes and lack in others. Level of skill required is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion and let’s be honest, often over-exaggerated.

This is true only for necromancer. Every other profession is viable in every game mode.

Viable sure. Vital to the meta, no. Can an Engineer play a role in a WvW zerg? Sure. Will he be as effective as an Elementalist? No. Just an example.

Why can’t he be as effective? Engis are very similar to elementalists.

Galen Grey.4709:

What’s this idea that whoever starts the instance/party somehow is more important, all knowing, gets choice of life and death (okey exaggerating a bit but the underling point stands) ?

Your party members are your companions, your team etc.. they’re not your employees or your personal soldiers. (talking in general not to anybody specific).

When someone Joins your team, you’re not doing them a favor by allowing them to tag along… if anything they’re doing you a favor by helping you out with whatever your doing.

This talk of I should dictate who joins or not, or I should be able to kick people off the team but they cannot do the same to me and stuff is frankly exactly what thank gods of game design Arenanet made sure to avoid.

As for OP I dont know what happened but I have a feeling those 3 additions were not friends… if 3 friends want to do dungeons they’d start their own party most likely and the chances that they all join the same group at the same time is kinda difficult.

As for why they all agreed to kick you off the team is probably because you made them feel like you were going to kick them off the team for not fitting your criteria and they did it preemptively themselves. You probably made them feel insecure when you asked them to change to heavies one of them start the kick, the other two figured it may be unfair but if they dont agree probably it will be them off the team hence they agreed.

He got kicked from his own half finished instance. he’s the victim, not those 3 stealing instance rats.

This is why current system is terrible. You start an instance, you look for a party on lfg, you get kicked. This is madness, a crime to logic and rational thinking.

Aenaos.8160:

chemiclord.3978:

It sounds like the goal is that instead of grinding EotM to gain levels and skill points, they’re trying to encourage players to explore and find these hero challenges while they level characters.

Yeah .Skill challenges are in very secretive and hard to reach places and they require some
10 sec to be completed.A truly heroic task.

1 skill challenge ok
10 skill challenges ok
300 skill challenges for someone who’s not into exploration is a terrible grind

So you have no data so your claims of “most players” not liking anything has no evidence. That’s pathetic.

Shaogin.2679:

We’re all aware of the Ele and Engi’s capability of being a jack-of-all-trades. I think what the op is trying to get across is his concerns that the Ele out-shines all other professions due to having a vital role in literally every game mode meta out there, where as other professions will shine in some game modes and lack in others. Level of skill required is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion and let’s be honest, often over-exaggerated.

This is true only for necromancer. Every other profession is viable in every game mode.

Einlanzer.1627:

Most players do not enjoy the current PvE dynamics which is why the game has steadily hemorrhaged players from day one.

I stopped reading at this point.
Data. Now.

I’ve never cared about trait attributes when creating builds, only checked trait descriptions. Dunno if it’s significant.

phys.7689:

tramwajarz.2369:

I’m actually a little excited as well as worried.
I hope that specialization tracks won’t be a boring grind.

hmmm..
if masteries makes you not level after 80…
and all other points come from skill challenges…
you will have to do skill challenges..
wonder how that will effect WvW people.

That’s actually pretty good question. I hope we’ll get some answers on friday stream.

lordkrall.7241:

tramwajarz.2369:

I’m very disappointed that some professions are getting two-handed weapons and some only offhands. kitten , eles with their swords are getting 12 new skills. Why some professions are getting too much love while others are unwanted kids?

Yes elementalists might get more skills than others. But what if they only get that? While lets say mesmer might end up getting “only” a shield but also a bunch of new mechanics and such (such as new shatterings or new clone/phatasm creations or so on).

This is all only a “maybe”. I hope future info will shatter my worries with mind wrack

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

I don’t think that’s a good thing and I don’t see how anyone can argue that it is. If someone who specs purely into DPS can do everything else, what is the point of spec’ing into anything but DPS? That’s the problem that the majority of the community is complaining about.

You should be able to do a little of everything regardless of spec, but you shouldn’t be really good at everything when spec’ing into DPS.

But this is the philosophy of GW2. Every build is a winner. It is clear to me from day 1. Changing it would make it a different game ending up with exodus of players.