Guild Wars 2

I think that I’m not alone in that the most disheartening thing about this Watchwork Pick issue, is the total lack of any kind of response to any of the criticisms and complaints levied in this forum. Let me start by saying that I’m not wholly against what the Pick does, although I do still think it is likely a Very Bad Idea.

I recognise that it’s highly likely that items such as the Bone Pick, Jack-In-The-Box Scythe, and Dreamcleaver Logging Axe did not sell very well at all. The reason for this is that there’s not many people that are going to spend a full $12.50 on these items if all they are is a separate skin for those that already have the Molten/Consortium/Chop-It-All tools. If you already have one of the first set of tools, you have next to zero reason to get one of the newer tools when they come out. So clearly the solution was to have the base functionality of the tools (infinite charges) remain, but have some trick that’s specific to each tool aside from the graphics. Enter the Watchwork Mining Pick.

The item has an interesting function which I think COULD have its place, but which I feel should have been done differently. For anyone that enters the game after the Marionette is gone, they will likely be cut off from a sprocket resource forever. They can’t get the home instance one anymore, and the Scarlet attacks around Tyria will apparently be ending soon, so that source will be unavailable as well. So the only other option would be to buy up lots of them on the TP. With this tool, those that buy it would have a way to slowly build up sprockets as they play the game. The issue that arises, is when will this end?

Ideally, the content that drops the sprockets (and Azurite and spores, as a note) should be permanently available in some way at all times, but that’s just my opinion. If it’s set in stone that the content and thus the resources have to vanish, then the only other options I see are the following.

• Offer the meta reward, AFTER the event is over, as a gem store item. That way you can still pay to access it, but only if you’re either unable to get the meta, or join the game after the event is already gone. This gives nobody a real Pay 2 Win advantage, as it’s the exact same upgrade you get from completing the meta.
• Put an account-wide upgrade that gives these % drops when using any infinite tool of the right type. Namely once purchased, you would then be able to get sprockets with any of the current or future picks. This lets the picks themselves retain the same functionality, and players can pick the skin they want, and also not need to clog up bank space with the excess tools.
• Same as above, but have specific tools bonus inherently. So say the Watchwork Pick works as it does now, but by buying the account-wide upgrade, you can then have that bonus apply to all your picks.

ANet, I love your game, and I think that you have your hearts in the right place, but the lack of any kind of response is truly saddening in this and many other instances. You have 100s of employees, there is absolutely no way that nobody knows what is going on at all. All we ask is for a red post acknowledging the threads and letting us know if you consider the controversy caused by this new item as something that should be addressed, and if not, what we can expect future items to be like.

They are testing the waters. They are waiting because they want to gauge the responses. For them this is big business, so they need to see whether it is necessary to:

a) pull the idea completely or,
b) tone down the idea to a level the community “can live with”.

Option b) is “bad cop, good cop”. Once they tone it down, they’re the “good cop” implementing an idea that nobody really wanted in the first place – but people are just happy the really bad idea was toned down.

I’m betting they are taken aback by the response. But it, infinite tools, did transition from a mere convenience item to an item that can generate extra income.

At least the sprocket market already pulled back over 50% since the giant clockwork event started.

Kamui.3150:

The item has an interesting function which I think COULD have its place, but which I feel should have been done differently. For anyone that enters the game after the Marionette is gone, they will likely be cut off from a sprocket resource forever. They can’t get the home instance one anymore, and the Scarlet attacks around Tyria will apparently be ending soon, so that source will be unavailable as well. So the only other option would be to buy up lots of them on the TP. With this tool, those that buy it would have a way to slowly build up sprockets as they play the game. The issue that arises, is when will this end?

Thats not the issue.

There are thousands of peoples who have the node in home and that is the best way to give it any value at all to allow the to sell it to people who don’t have it.

Also since it is a mass scale because so many people have the node the price will never, never ever go very high, but it will be worth the effort to go home (which will cost up to 10s 2 ways), mine it and sell sprockets they mine.

Well, it’s hard to respond in any way except ‘lol, because we could’. They’ve basically cheated all players who bought the infinite tools before. I got 7 sets. I should know. ;D

Keep in mind that we forum dwellers represent a minority of players. It will be the sales figures that tell them anything useful, not complaints here.

If this pick sells well, you can expect more in the future. If it does not sell well, then the experiment will end.

Personally, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Most people already have unlimited use picks and the sprockets are fairly useless so I’m not sure why anyone would care if they dropped or not. If they actually add something useful or desirable that relies on sprockets in the future, then I reserve the right to amend my opinion.

mtpelion.4562:

sprockets are fairly useless

I keep seeing this myopic argument crop up. Useless like the 4m+ silk scraps that were at or around vendor price until recently? Arguing that this is harmless because you don’t value sprockets assumes that demand (and thus value) isn’t dynamic, reactive and volatile (and entirely at the mercy of the anet economist, as was silk).

This also applies to those arguing that it is fine because “I now have a sprocket node in my personal instance”. If you can’t see the difference between a limited, time gated personal node, and a mining tool which generates sprockets whenever a resource node is mined on an unlimited basis, you really need to try and understand the concept of supply and why this is grossly inappropriate.

I wouldn’t have had a problem with this mining pick having the ability it does if it weren’t for one thing;

Sprockets at the moment are the only material used to make the new stat combo Zealot.

This is why it now becomes rather unfair, especially compared to the other mining picks that were bought at the same price previously. This gives people an edge over those who grinded the meta event or the previous Scarlet events to earn those sprokets. Having to not put any effort into obtaining these other than spending a bit of coin.

That’s where I think it’s not cool. Especially given the fact that these can be harvested from ANY node. Increasing the potential output gained from sprockets for these picks to an incredible amount if they so desired.

There’s also no telling how much more valuable sprockets will become in the future.

Behellagh.1468:

I’m betting they are taken aback by the response. But it, infinite tools, did transition from a mere convenience item to an item that can generate extra income.

At least the sprocket market already pulled back over 50% since the giant clockwork event started.

I cannot believe that they are taken back by the response. It doesn’t take a psychic to have know what would happen. If they truly are taken back, well then the company needs to hire an adviser in HR that can advise them on basic human psychology.

That aside I am of the train of thought that they are simply waiting for the storm to pass and the community tires of being ignored while issuing concerns. Once it blows over we may or may not get a response which will acknowledge it, but address nothing. Then future iteration will inch further and further along repeating the same behavior until we are long past where we began. Like easing into hot bath, we will get fully submerged it’s just a matter of taking it slow, a little at a time. Then it really won’t seem that bad. Being of this train of thought I believe they do have a competent marketing team and just acknowledge the reaction as a means to an end.

mtpelion.4562:

Keep in mind that we forum dwellers represent a minority of players. It will be the sales figures that tell them anything useful, not complaints here.

If this pick sells well, you can expect more in the future. If it does not sell well, then the experiment will end.

Personally, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Most people already have unlimited use picks and the sprockets are fairly useless so I’m not sure why anyone would care if they dropped or not. If they actually add something useful or desirable that relies on sprockets in the future, then I reserve the right to amend my opinion.

Correct me here I’m at work – but I believe the in game pick does not contain text to illustrate the 20% chance.

pswendel.8179:

Correct me here I’m at work – but I believe the in game pick does not contain text to illustrate the 20% chance.

I can also confirm this.

Talonblaze.3175:

pswendel.8179:

Correct me here I’m at work – but I believe the in game pick does not contain text to illustrate the 20% chance.

I can also confirm this.

Thank you.

This would only lead to the conclusion that forum goers are the majority voice on this issue, which is disheartening as to why we have no response.

If one pick has the ability to generate sprockets then every pick of a certain level, whether bought through the gemstore or purchased from a vendor in the game, should have that same ability.

If this ability exists on a gemstore item then Ori picks should also generate sprockets at the same percentage chance.

Talonblaze.3175:

pswendel.8179:

Correct me here I’m at work – but I believe the in game pick does not contain text to illustrate the 20% chance.

I can also confirm this.

actually, this is a very good point.
the majority of players don’t read game release notes or the forums, so they would have no idea that this pick gives extra sprockets. They are not buying this pick for the bonus, they are buying it for the looks / have a complete set / etc.

Mystic.5934:

Talonblaze.3175:

pswendel.8179:

Correct me here I’m at work – but I believe the in game pick does not contain text to illustrate the 20% chance.

I can also confirm this.

actually, this is a very good point.
the majority of players don’t read game release notes or the forums, so they would have no idea that this pick gives extra sprockets. They are not buying this pick for the bonus, they are buying it for the looks / have a complete set / etc.

The additional problem is, its also false advertising. The lack of such information makes people think ‘oh its just like all the others, no biggy’ despite there being an unwritten bonus. The fact this had to be mined and tested for such is a problem on Anet’s behalf.
They can say its a bug, given its the lack of description and remove said feature or they will add it to the description and still deal with the many not happy previous customers that will think twice about purchasing gems.

Talonblaze.3175:

The additional problem is, its also false advertising. The lack of such information makes people think ‘oh its just like all the others, no biggy’ despite there being an unwritten bonus. The fact this had to be mined and tested for such is a problem on Anet’s behalf.
They can say its a bug, given its the lack of description and remove said feature or they will add it to the description and still deal with the many not happy previous customers that will think twice about purchasing gems.

Leaving out a bonus feature is NOT false advertising.

Kamui.3150:

• Offer the meta reward, AFTER the event is over, as a gem store item. That way you can still pay to access it, but only if you’re either unable to get the meta, or join the game after the event is already gone. This gives nobody a real Pay 2 Win advantage, as it’s the exact same upgrade you get from completing the meta.

I like this idea, but some items should still have some exclusivity. If you weren’t there to do the meta, then tough luck.

Kamui.3150:

• Put an account-wide upgrade that gives these % drops when using any infinite tool of the right type. Namely once purchased, you would then be able to get sprockets with any of the current or future picks. This lets the picks themselves retain the same functionality, and players can pick the skin they want, and also not need to clog up bank space with the excess tools.

Horrible idea. This doesn’t negate the fact that items in the gemstore should be COSMETIC only. Or like the Unlimited picks/Salvage kits a convenience item (using them will not make you richer in any way, because they cost so many gems to buy and the equivalent items you can get in game are really cheap).
If other infinite mining picks gained the same 20% chance to mine Watchwork Sprockets then it will still be a pay-to-win item. The only way to not make it so is to add mining picks of the same caliber that can be acquired in-game through cheap methods (so the infinite one does not give more loot).

Kamui.3150:

• Same as above, but have specific tools bonus inherently. So say the Watchwork Pick works as it does now, but by buying the account-wide upgrade, you can then have that bonus apply to all your picks.

Same as above, this would still be a pay-to-win item. Keep in mind that I bought 2 Watchwork picks, and I still classify it as a pay-to-win item. There’s just no going around it.

Asmodeus.5782:

Well, it’s hard to respond in any way except ‘lol, because we could’. They’ve basically cheated all players who bought the infinite tools before. I got 7 sets. I should know. ;D

They didn’t cheat you. You got what you paid for. When you buy a new car for a specific price, and a few months later you see the same car with extra features for the same price, do you also feel cheated then? No. This is the way the economy works.

Aye.8392:

If one pick has the ability to generate sprockets then every pick of a certain level, whether bought through the gemstore or purchased from a vendor in the game, should have that same ability.

If this ability exists on a gemstore item then Ori picks should also generate sprockets at the same percentage chance.

This is the only fair solution I can think of. Or removing the extra % all together.

mtpelion.4562:

Leaving out a bonus feature is NOT false advertising.

Well, its still not something that is allowed in common day marketing iirc, even if the technical term might be something else. It’s still omitting information that could affect purchases, be it for itself or others.

Looks like we all got our response …

StinVec.3621:

Looks like we all got our response …

I just saw that too. This isnt cool I spend anywhere between 10 to 30 dollars a month to support this game.

I would guess that the thread was locked due to us getting a response soonish.
Now we know they have read it at least.

What’s the issue?

I purchased the bone pick back in December and used in game currency gold, not money. I may pick this one up too, with in game currency but, I wouldn’t pay real money for it. Those of us who run dungeons daily this is about 2-3 weeks worth of gold.

Sola.7250:

What’s the issue?

I purchased the bone pick back in December and used in game currency gold, not money. I may pick this one up too, with in game currency but, I wouldn’t pay real money for it. Those of us who run dungeons daily this is about 2-3 weeks worth of gold.

The issue is what a possible next step can be.
Right now it is giving something that is readily available (for now) in the game.

But what if the next one gives Azurite ore which is currently extremely limited?

“New—Watchwork Mining Pick!
A recent breakthrough in mining technology has let us make a new infinite mining pick. This self-repairing pick has a chance to add a Watchwork Sprocket to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!” – https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/new-watchwork-mining-pick-and-more-in-the-gem-store/
it’s not a bug.

the phrase “sticking your kitten in a hornets nest” comes to mind of why they would be silly to respond.

They’re waiting to see if this dies down. If it does, they know they can push further into pay-to-win territory.

P2W items start appearing and players will disappear.

The majority of the forum says “not okay” the sale numbers of the item say “its okay”

(a)I find it amazing just how kitten people get about something so worthless (sprockets).

(b) People who bought the previous mining picks knew what they were getting when they bought it; it was a fair transaction. Just because something new and better comes along doesn’t make those previous transactions inequitable.

I’m waiting for the next gen pick since they will have to up the game with the sprocket pick. Something like “The Pick of the Devs! This self repairing pick straight from the computers of the devs has a chance to add a precursor to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!”

Stay tuned in 6 months for “The Pick to end all picks! This self repairing pick straight from NcSoft’s Bean counters desk has a chance of adding $100 dollars to your account through your credit card to the rewards when used to mine ore veins!”

After that, it will be GW3 and we will get copper picks that add nothing and the whole process will restart.

Mckeone.9804:

(a)I find it amazing just how kitten people get about something so worthless (sprockets).

And I find it amazing how people still don’t understand that this is not specifically about the sprockets.

Talonblaze.3175:

mtpelion.4562:

Leaving out a bonus feature is NOT false advertising.

Well, its still not something that is allowed in common day marketing iirc, even if the technical term might be something else. It’s still omitting information that could affect purchases, be it for itself or others.

It absolutely is allowed. Omitting unnecessary information from your advertising is perfectly fine and happens all the time.

Like lordkrall said, its not about the sprockets. Its the fact that they are putting in vertical progression items like this in the gem store and the fact that they knowingly sold obsolete items. It makes me question whether anything I buy from the gem store will be upgraded at my expense in a month or 2 and how much vertical progression will it be. Will I need to purchase a pick, axe or harvesting tool to be able to harvest items needed to craft a precursor when they implement that? Will possibly need to purchase new skills via gem store to be competitive in PvE or even PvP? There is no ceiling once you start having vertical progression in a cash store. Then it becomes P2W and the new question will be how big of gap will it be.

(1) You don’t know what P2W means. Adding a chance to get a sprocket is not P2W.

(2) You’re way down a slippery slope with the precursor example.

Mckeone.9804:

(1) You don’t know what P2W means. Adding a chance to get a sprocket is not P2W.

(2) You’re way down a slippery slope with the precursor example.

Well, it would be P2W if winning was based on who had the most useless sprockets, but that would be such an absurdly dull game that no one would be playing it.

I’ve been waiting for a response for a while as well now, but for some reason they are not answering :\

Niels.5396:

I’ve been waiting for a response for a while as well now, but for some reason they are not answering :\

A response to what, exactly?

The thing is that they can’t just answer, this is something that needs to go through quite a bit of people before a decision is made, and thus we will simply have to wait.

mtpelion.4562:

Niels.5396:

I’ve been waiting for a response for a while as well now, but for some reason they are not answering :\

A response to what, exactly?

A response to the massive number of people voicing serious concerns regarding what they see is a fundemental policy change in what the gemstore has to offer, and may be offering in the future.

mtpelion.4562:

It absolutely is allowed. Omitting unnecessary information from your advertising is perfectly fine and happens all the time.

Legally, you are correct. But there are no lawyers here. We are customers who know when we are being swindled. technically, grammatically, they haven’t done anything wrong. Yet most people think they have. They never need to worry about being sued, we all agreed that it’s a changing game and can be changed to suit their design at any moment. they only need to worry about people quitting because this is becoming a game they don’t want to play. you can’t use technicalities and double-speech against the customer – only the courts.

I’m hoping that they add similar properties to the existing and future infinite harvesting tools.

They will definately not change the pick now its released. The question for me is, if they gonna add that feature to the old picks as well or if they give out refunds for the old ones, if you buy the new one. If we dont hear any feedback until monday, i will buy the new one and ask for a refund for my old one.

It’s a sad day for this game if we have to ask for refunds on such fine harvesting tools. But we should probably all do the same as Wanze.

The very strong impression I was given at the time was that this tool would remain the best tool out there, certainly for the (real) money I paid for it. I even recall a thread on this very forum calling Anet out on this, suspecting the current scenario (or a version of it) would happen. Anet did not react at the time, so I assumed my purchase was safe.

The only thing ArenaNet needs to clarify is if the sprocket chance replaces the extra ore chance because that makes a huge difference in the value of the sprocket bonus.

Buttercup.5871:

It’s a sad day for this game if we have to ask for refunds on such fine harvesting tools. But we should probably all do the same as Wanze.

The very strong impression I was given at the time was that this tool would remain the best tool out there, certainly for the (real) money I paid for it. I even recall a thread on this very forum calling Anet out on this, suspecting the current scenario (or a version of it) would happen. Anet did not react at the time, so I assumed my purchase was safe.

All you’d be doing is telling them it’s ok go push further into pay-to-win territory.

Buttercup, were you told when you bought your old tool that nothing better would ever come out? Or did you just assume? You know what they say about assuming!

Wanze.8410:

They will definately not change the pick now its released. The question for me is, if they gonna add that feature to the old picks as well or if they give out refunds for the old ones, if you buy the new one. If we dont hear any feedback until monday, i will buy the new one and ask for a refund for my old one.

They will not give you a refund. I already put a ticket in for one. Their response was “Purchases from the Gem Store are seldom refundable, and in this case we are not able to provide a refund of your purchase. We encourage you to exercise care when conducting all your gem transactions.” I’d love to respond with I’d exercise more care when you quit exercising deceitful practices like offering the Molten Alliance trio of tools for 2850 gems and then 1-2 months later after you took all the money, put out another item which trumps what I just purchased…..keep backhanding your customers Anet and see where you are in a few months……

mtpelion.4562:

The only thing ArenaNet needs to clarify is if the sprocket chance replaces the extra ore chance because that makes a huge difference in the value of the sprocket bonus.

You can check that yourself by harvesting with it. If you get 3 ores AND a sprocket, then it doesn’t replace it. I’m gonna guess it works like picks do now with gems from nodes. It just gives a chance at an extra item, not count that item in the ore count.

I have no reason to buy the pick, so I won’t be testing it myself.

Currently, you can sometimes get an additional ore from a single hit of the node (not referring to the gem bonus item). So hitting the node 3 times will pay out 4 ores.

If they replace that 4th ore with a sprocket then this pick is going to be the worst pick of them all. If they are simply adding a sprocket chance, then this pick is going to be a 6c advantage over the other infinite tools, per use.

Sauzo.6821:

mtpelion.4562:

The only thing ArenaNet needs to clarify is if the sprocket chance replaces the extra ore chance because that makes a huge difference in the value of the sprocket bonus.

You can check that yourself by harvesting with it. If you get 3 ores AND a sprocket, then it doesn’t replace it. I’m gonna guess it works like picks do now with gems from nodes. It just gives a chance at an extra item, not count that item in the ore count.

Any pick can produce three ore + a jewel, any axe can produce three logs + a “hidden” bag (copper axe gives amber pebble instead). If this produces three ores + a sprocket it doesn’t mean anything other than the sprocket replaces the bonus item. If you get three ores + a jewel + a sprocket then it’s superior to current tools.

Personally, I’d rather have the jewel than a sprocket. And I think all the fuss is turning a molehill into a mountain.