Guild Wars 2

Anyone remember how long it took Anet to respond to the flamekissed armor debacle? I seem to recall it was only a couple days. This has been a week. It’s very unlikely they’re ever going to say anything at this point.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Anyone remember how long it took Anet to respond to the flamekissed armor debacle? I seem to recall it was only a couple days. This has been a week. It’s very unlikely they’re ever going to say anything at this point.

Well this one is quite difficult.

The flamekissed was a simple solution, sorry we copy-pasted and repainted an armor and sold it. We’ll take it back to the drawingboard and try again.

A little more then an oops, i mean someone thought it a good idea to wholesale take an existing armor. But hey, it was a cosmetic thing.

With this, they are trying to see if they can get away with something that for GW2 is unprecedented. They’re still gathering information wether or not they got away with it, or trying to figure out how to respond to what is a much bigger controversy then the flamekissed skin.

And you can bet your sweet kitten that they got 2 more of these waiting just around the corner. The harvesting tool and the logging tool.
And if they feel this is really something they have to back out of, think of the mess they have to deal with to refund and whatnot.

The situation is far more delicate, and its sad they got into hotwater so soon again. Its like they do good, just to try and build up points so they can cash it on a kitten move down the line. Hoping they got the goodwill to get away with it.

Terrahero.9358:

With this, they are trying to see if they can get away with something that for GW2 is unprecedented. They’re still gathering information wether or not they got away with it, or trying to figure out how to respond to what is a much bigger controversy then the flamekissed skin.

I don’t think 30 people on the forums constitutes a controversy. I have a feeling that we will absolutely see more items like this because it will sell, the vocal minority on the forums notwithstanding.

mtpelion.4562:

Terrahero.9358:

With this, they are trying to see if they can get away with something that for GW2 is unprecedented. They’re still gathering information wether or not they got away with it, or trying to figure out how to respond to what is a much bigger controversy then the flamekissed skin.

I don’t think 30 people on the forums constitutes a controversy. I have a feeling that we will absolutely see more items like this because it will sell, the vocal minority on the forums notwithstanding.

Its more then just 30 people on the forums. Or do you not talk with people through other media?

I know just 30 people myself that range from mild disagree to wtf? Not nearly as many people who seem to actually think this is a good idea… This is going around, and the general consensus is not possitive.
But a lot of people do not seem to really understand what this means.

But the information arenanet will look for is sales, that is all that matters and we dont know what those say untill we get a response. Which can be a “we’re doing this” or “oops!”. Ofcourse no response is also a response.

I’ll put my comment here, then leave my peace, since it doesn’t seem that we’ll recieve an actual response any time soon.

When I bought my first Infinite gathering tools, I thought “Hey, Infinite! That means I only need to buy one, and I’ll get to use it forever!”

Since, you know, infinite means infinite. It doesn’t get less useful over time, it retains the same value.

The new gathering tools that Anet is releasing will change in value over time because the newer material it gathers, even if its the only source, will eventually flood the market, and become worthless.

After thinking about it for awhile…, I think the new infinite gathering tool and all future ones are there only for fools to spend their money on who don;t do the math, because the only advantage they are buying isn’t even going to last that long if enough people spend their hard earned gold/money on the item. It will flood the market with whatever item, and become worthless. If you want to spend an extra 200 gems to do it, hey, its your money.

Terrahero.9358:

With this, they are trying to see if they can get away with something that for GW2 is unprecedented. They’re still gathering information wether or not they got away with it, or trying to figure out how to respond to what is a much bigger controversy then the flamekissed skin.

Flamekissed got more of a response, which is a pity because this is worse IMHO. It seems they will only backtrack if the response reaches a certain level which again is a pity because it shows they are purely driven by PR not by any sort of standard.

Chrispy.5641:

I’ll put my comment here, then leave my peace, since it doesn’t seem that we’ll recieve an actual response any time soon.

When I bought my first Infinite gathering tools, I thought “Hey, Infinite! That means I only need to buy one, and I’ll get to use it forever!”

Since, you know, infinite means infinite. It doesn’t get less useful over time, it retains the same value.

The new gathering tools that Anet is releasing will change in value over time because the newer material it gathers, even if its the only source, will eventually flood the market, and become worthless.

After thinking about it for awhile…, I think the new infinite gathering tool and all future ones are there only for fools to spend their money on who don;t do the math, because the only advantage they are buying isn’t even going to last that long if enough people spend their hard earned gold/money on the item. It will flood the market with whatever item, and become worthless. If you want to spend an extra 200 gems to do it, hey, its your money.

I agree with what you say about the market becoming flooded and I believe the player will never be fully reimbursed for the purchase of the newest tool. That being said, I disagree that the purchase is foolish. To me, it’s worth it for the convenience, and for the couple extra storage spaces I get for not having to carry an assortment of picks. I never have to swap out for different types of ore and I never have to worry about running of of picks. I like that. It brings me peace of mind.

Even though i like the new pick and its sprocket functionality, i decided against buying it. I dont really think its a P2W item but from all the threads on this topic its clear that many people do. Personally I am disgruntled because i already got an infinite pick, which would be useless to me, if I buy the new one.
Another reason why i decided against buying it was Anets lack of response to all the topics and the mediocre description of the item, not giving any info on the sprocket droprate or if it overwrites other rare drops from mining.

Well, lets see with what shenanigans they will come up with tomorrow. Usually i trade for 1000 gems on mondays, today i wont.

Darn. After reading this whole thread and watching the hysteria build higher and higher, I think the Devs are not saying anything because they are afraid to say anything.

Despite what I said in an earlier thread about people wanting to become Sprocket trillionaires when the quantity of sprockets in the trading house dry up, I do know you all are afraid, some quite terrified, that Anet will keep on adding Pay To Win extras in future gathering tools.

I am an older Player. As such, I have learned somethings are just not worth getting in a stew about. I have seen my parents get older, I have seen my better half have a stroke and almost die, My beloved cat did die…This pick, and the threat of future gathering tools with perks in the gem store, to me, is not something to lose sleep over.

If worse comes to worse and Anet does indeed put infinite gathering tools with small perks in the gem store then you all will do one of two things. You will either ragequit, or you will put on your big boy/girl pants and deal with it…maybe skip going out for lunch one day and bring a sack lunch. At today’s prices, the cost of a lunch is darn near the cost of a gathering tool.

Anet, what you can do to calm people in this thread, at least I think it will help calm people, is change the drop tables of all the gathering tools to include sprockets and whatever other goodies you add to future tools.

And come out and talk to us. I think you need to.

Lisa-Pensive

I wonder how many people complaining about this don’t appreciate the fact that they don’t pay a monthly fee to play this game ….

Julischka Bean.7491:

Darn. After reading this whole thread and watching the hysteria build higher and higher, I think the Devs are not saying anything because they are afraid to say anything.

Despite what I said in an earlier thread about people wanting to become Sprocket trillionaires when the quantity of sprockets in the trading house dry up, I do know you all are afraid, some quite terrified, that Anet will keep on adding Pay To Win extras in future gathering tools.

I am an older Player. As such, I have learned somethings are just not worth getting in a stew about. I have seen my parents get older, I have seen my better half have a stroke and almost die, My beloved cat did die…This pick, and the threat of future gathering tools with perks in the gem store, to me, is not something to lose sleep over.

If worse comes to worse and Anet does indeed put infinite gathering tools with small perks in the gem store then you all will do one of two things. You will either ragequit, or you will put on your big boy/girl pants and deal with it…maybe skip going out for lunch one day and bring a sack lunch. At today’s prices, the cost of a lunch is darn near the cost of a gathering tool.

Anet, what you can do to calm people in this thread, at least I think it will help calm people, is change the drop tables of all the gathering tools to include sprockets and whatever other goodies you add to future tools.

And come out and talk to us. I think you need to.

Lisa-Pensive

Im sorry about your cat.

Julischka Bean.7491:

I am an older Player. As such, I have learned somethings are just not worth getting in a stew about. I have seen my parents get older, I have seen my better half have a stroke and almost die, My beloved cat did die…This pick, and the threat of future gathering tools with perks in the gem store, to me, is not something to lose sleep over.

You don’t have to lose sleep over something to have a problem with it.

I’m a younger player, but I’ve been through similar situations to yourself. I lost my dad during summer vacation just before my senior year due to his exposure to chemicals in Vietnam. That same year we lost my Aunt who had been living with us. 2 years later we had to put my Labrador down.

I bring those things up to respond as such: I still see this pick as an issue. I still see it as something that needs fixed. I don’t think ignoring a perceived problem by “just dealing with it” means that you’ve put on big boy/girl pants, either.

Even if it’s something that’s not that important, it’s good to speak up. At least, that’s what I feel.

Obtena.7952:

I wonder how many people complaining about this don’t appreciate the fact that they don’t pay a monthly fee to play this game ….

There’s always someone who brings up this ridiculous argument.

The game was — and still is — sold on the promise that you only pay once. The $60 (or whatever) we paid for the game was an upfront payment for not just today’s content, but also tomorrow’s content, and the day after’s content.

If that $60 only guaranteed you today’s content and nothing more in the future, you can bet many people would not have bought this game in the first place.

So we already paid for this content and if we’re not satisfied, we certainly have the right to complain. Anet’s not a charity.

Lord Kuru one can never talk sense into that kind of people. IMO.
But I admire the optimism of the ones that still try.

Then they’re dumb because even the original GW only granted you today’s content but there they expected you to buy an expansion/play alone if you wanted more.

We don’t have that here right now. What we have is a more comprehensive cash shop trying to provide items that would get players to buy gems with cash, now that the exchange rate is high, to purchase them. Different business model.

Wanze, Thanks for your sympathy toward my cat. She was my very first cat I ever owned as an adult and I loved that Calico sooo much.

Gene Archer, hugs to you. Life sucks sometimes.

Gene Archer, Lord Kuru, and all who said we have a right to complain, indeed we do.

Hmmm…come to think of it, I feel as strongly about the Light Flamekiss armor as you all feel about these picks and what they might foreshadow about future Gem Store items. I guess I need to find me a Flamekiss thread and get involved in that…but first..I need to cook breakfast

Lisa-Thinks she is starving.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

I wonder how many people complaining about this don’t appreciate the fact that they don’t pay a monthly fee to play this game ….

There’s always someone who brings up this ridiculous argument.

It’s hardly ridiculous … if there was no items that people wanted to buy in the gemstore then the game would 1) have to become some kind of subscription based model or 2) close up shop. What do you think funds this outfit? Goodwill? That initial $60 paid for the development of the game and maybe a few months of runtime. The gemstore is what will fund this game for years to come.

Frankly, the biggest problem with the business model is that people that buy Gemstuff with RL money are subsidizing people that don’t. I don’t have a hangup with that because it gives more people to play with but I’m sure it doesn’t make a lick of difference to Anet. Perhaps Anet should track and weight the opinions of those players more highly.

So, no please Anet, continue to make improved and better items available in the gemstore because I like this game and I don’t want to pay a sub to play it.

Obtena.7952:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

I wonder how many people complaining about this don’t appreciate the fact that they don’t pay a monthly fee to play this game ….

There’s always someone who brings up this ridiculous argument.

It’s hardly ridiculous … if there was no items that people wanted to buy in the gemstore then the game would 1) have to become some kind of subscription based model or 2) close up shop. What do you think funds this outfit? Goodwill?

The game ONLY works on the premise you only pay once BECAUSE they continue to release things in the gemstore that are desirable to fund it.
Frankly,

Not true at all. It is possible to have a business model where you pay once and get “lifetime” support — and that’s how the game was advertised: Buy-to-Play.

By selling on the idea of B2P, you get more people buying the game than would otherwise — just look at GW2’s fantastic launch numbers. This larger-than-usual load of cash is used to support the game. Of course, selling as B2P gets you sales after launch as well.

If you go back on the B2P idea, then you will lose people’s trust and you lose after-launch sales (and forget about a GW3). And that’s happening here — at least in the eyes of many customers. And here’s the important part:

It doesn’t even matter if it’s truly P2W by some technical definition, if customers have the perception that it’s P2W, then you’re in trouble.

Pre-paid yearly gym memberships (or even lifetime memberships) is run on the same idea. You pay a discounted price upfront and get all their content for the duration. You get the same benefits as a “regular” monthly-paying customer. They’re not Goodwill. Not even close.

Many businesses run on the pay once model. And many, once they have your lump-sum money, begin to nickel-and-dime you, in creative ways, for the services that you’ve already paid for. That’s what people are afraid is happening now with GW2. And IMO they’re probably right.

Edit: Now that I think about it, perhaps a better model (for customers) is one where you get to choose, either B2P or pay monthly. The B2P players give infusions of instant cash while the monthly customers keep the company honest as they can leave at any time.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

I wonder how many people complaining about this don’t appreciate the fact that they don’t pay a monthly fee to play this game ….

There’s always someone who brings up this ridiculous argument.

It’s hardly ridiculous … if there was no items that people wanted to buy in the gemstore then the game would 1) have to become some kind of subscription based model or 2) close up shop. What do you think funds this outfit? Goodwill?

The game ONLY works on the premise you only pay once BECAUSE they continue to release things in the gemstore that are desirable to fund it.
Frankly,

Not true at all. It is possible to have a business model where you pay once and get “lifetime” support — and that’s how the game was advertised: Buy-to-Play.

But that’s not relevant to my ‘ridiculous’ argument because that’s not how GW2 works. Think up all the theoretical funding schemes you want; they have nothing to do with the impact that the current scheme has on the game right now.

GW2 is funded by gemstore. If they want funding, they need to intro stuff people want in gemstore. That stuff will always be better, improved and more interesting items than the previous ones because this will be the only thing that ensures consistent sales over time.

To give you some credit, that’s not even the strongest argument for why people shouldn’t QQ about this. An even better one is that people who have the first infinite mining tools are getting their value from them, even as newer, improved ones continue to be released. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have bought them in the first place.

It’s buy it and you can play for free, until we run out of money to fund the servers. You can’t possibly be so naive that you think a one time purchase means forever.

the pic has a good feature, and new players are SUPPOSED to be cut off from old resources, and its ok that its better than the molten pick because it costed more

Obtena.7952:

GW2 is funded by gemstore. If they want funding, they need to intro stuff people want in gemstore. That stuff will always be better, improved and more interesting items than the previous ones because this will be the only thing that ensures consistent sales over time.

Do you think Anet will eventually have to sell finishers that can stomp people faster than normal finishers?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

GW2 is funded by gemstore. If they want funding, they need to intro stuff people want in gemstore. That stuff will always be better, improved and more interesting items than the previous ones because this will be the only thing that ensures consistent sales over time.

Do you think Anet will eventually have to sell finishers that can stomp people faster than normal finishers?

Don’t laugh. It COULD happen. The Consortium sickle, for example, actually harvests about 1/4 of a second faster than a normal sickle. There may very well be a finisher in future that was also a split-second faster than a normal baseline finisher. 1/4 second could mean a LOT in a PvP environment.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

GW2 is funded by gemstore. If they want funding, they need to intro stuff people want in gemstore. That stuff will always be better, improved and more interesting items than the previous ones because this will be the only thing that ensures consistent sales over time.

Do you think Anet will eventually have to sell finishers that can stomp people faster than normal finishers?

I don’t know. Would that be something that you would find unreasonable, given the fact that:

1) Everyone can buy them with two different kinds of currency
2) You’re not getting the opportunity to stomp anyone if the game doesn’t get funded

Given the equal opportunity to get it and the fact that gemstore stuff keeps the game F2P for alot of people, I would encourage it. Think about it this way … some guy paid $10-$20 to stomp a little faster in PVP.

Obtena.7952:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Obtena.7952:

GW2 is funded by gemstore. If they want funding, they need to intro stuff people want in gemstore. That stuff will always be better, improved and more interesting items than the previous ones because this will be the only thing that ensures consistent sales over time.

Do you think Anet will eventually have to sell finishers that can stomp people faster than normal finishers?

I don’t know. Would that be something that you would find unreasonable, given the fact that:

1) Everyone can buy them with two different kinds of currency
2) You’re not getting the opportunity to stomp anyone if the game doesn’t get funded

Given the equal opportunity to get it and the fact that gemstore stuff keeps the game F2P for alot of people, I would encourage it. Think about it this way … some guy paid $10-$20 to stomp a little faster in PVP.

The fact they are grasping for “this thing is flat out better guiz” so soon is sad to say the least.
There are plenty of alternative things theyve could add or do that do not involve selling the best anything for gems, but these options havent been explored yet. Let alone exhausted.

That’s an fair opinion. Of course, is that an experiment you want them to do? I for one am not enthusiatic about how that would impact the game if it failed.

I’m guessing there’s been no response because they have no idea how to get out of the corner they’ve painted themselves into…

They probably want to have something positive they’re prepared to say before opening dialogue.

To be honest, I’m pretty disheartened by the lack of any response so far too. This likely means that they are not going to remove the functionality of the pick, and it’s here to stay.

On the (semi) bright side, they may possibly upgrade the other existing unlimited tools to have their own special functionality, like the Molten pick being able to harvest bonus Azurite crystals (with a rare chance for Orbs), the Consortium sickle harvesting Passion Fruit (Passiflora) etc.

This part of the forum is seldom visited by players also. I know I never did enter here before this pick filth.
If AN had a fair argument they would have come up with it long ago.
IMO.

Despite the fact that we can use in-game currency to purchase this pick (which is the only thing preventing this from being a straight p2w item), I still feel incredibly uncomfortable with it being sold. Node or no node, this item seems to be better than any pick in the game. I hope Anet isn’t considering abandoning their “cosmetic only” approach to the gemshop. I’m not really advocating for action one way or the other, but this certainly is troubling in my opinion.

Terok.7315:

Despite the fact that we can use in-game currency to purchase this pick (which is the only thing preventing this from being a straight p2w item), I still feel incredibly uncomfortable with it being sold. Node or no node, this item seems to be better than any pick in the game. I hope Anet isn’t considering abandoning their “cosmetic only” approach to the gemshop. I’m not really advocating for action one way or the other, but this certainly is troubling in my opinion.

My research so far is inconclusive, but it is looking like this is actually the WORST pick in the game, not the best.

mtpelion.4562:

Terok.7315:

Despite the fact that we can use in-game currency to purchase this pick (which is the only thing preventing this from being a straight p2w item), I still feel incredibly uncomfortable with it being sold. Node or no node, this item seems to be better than any pick in the game. I hope Anet isn’t considering abandoning their “cosmetic only” approach to the gemshop. I’m not really advocating for action one way or the other, but this certainly is troubling in my opinion.

My research so far is inconclusive, but it is looking like this is actually the WORST pick in the game, not the best.

Why? because you don’t think it has the chance for bonus mats? If so that would take the heat out of the debate but why would Arenanet not confirm this?

With all the claims flying around about how this pick is so much better than the others and gives an advantage I decided to do an experiment. Over the last 3 days I’ve hit 100 nodes, all regular, I skipped Rich.
Out of those 100 nodes, I got 0 extra hits of ore. Instead I got a sprocket.
Average of sprockets: 1 sprocket out of every 3 nodes.

Now let’s look at the price of copper-orcichalcum. Those ores as a single unit on the TP is at the time of writing this out:

Copper: 34c
Silver: 44c
Iron: 1s 5c
Gold: 1s 27c
Platinum: 1s 76c
Mithril: 27c
Orichalcum: 4s 85c

Price of a sprocket: 39c

So it’s clear that giving up that chance at an extra hit of ore is a general loss rather than a gain. Unless sprockets jump up to more than what Platinum is sitting at (as it’s a normal node), you aren’t getting something more than others. Granted this is just from what I have seen, but it isn’t as fantastical as people seem to think it is.

Moonjelly.3742:

With all the claims flying around about how this pick is so much better than the others and gives an advantage I decided to do an experiment. Over the last 3 days I’ve hit 100 nodes, all regular, I skipped Rich.
Out of those 100 nodes, I got 0 extra hits of ore. Instead I got a sprocket.
Average of sprockets: 1 sprocket out of every 3 nodes.

Now let’s look at the price of copper-orcichalcum. Those ores as a single unit on the TP is at the time of writing this out:

Copper: 34c
Silver: 44c
Iron: 1s 5c
Gold: 1s 27c
Platinum: 1s 76c
Mithril: 27c
Orichalcum: 4s 85c

Price of a sprocket: 39c

So it’s clear that giving up that chance at an extra hit of ore is a general loss rather than a gain. Unless sprockets jump up to more than what Platinum is sitting at (as it’s a normal node), you aren’t getting something more than others. Granted this is just from what I have seen, but it isn’t as fantastical as people seem to think it is.

Anet never said that it was intended that you do not get any bonus ore with this pick, perhaps they are leaving this bug in place because it gets people to say “this pick isn’t better no need to complain about the free sprockets”, and when this whole thing dies down they will fix the bug and boom bonus sprockets and ore.

dAcIaW.5107:

Anet never said that it was intended that you do not get any bonus ore with this pick, perhaps they are leaving this bug in place because it gets people to say “this pick isn’t better no need to complain about the free sprockets”, and when this whole thing dies down they will fix the bug and boom bonus sprockets and ore.

Okay, nice tinfoil hat.

From what was written and from my personal experience (I bought a WW pick), it seems to be the case that instead of bonus ore you do in fact get a sprocket and as it was pointed out, you’re actually making less money that way. And there is no indication as to it being a bug, as you get something else instead of the bonus ore in the same quantity.

So that leaves the pick as what? A convenience item. You don’t need to keep a ton of tools with you or run to a vendor all the time and you don’t need to harvest other things to sell on the TP to buy sprockets.

And that is perfectly fine. Sure, when the sprocket drops are removed from the open world, if ever completely (i.e. Pristine Spore samples are still obtainable), then you might argue that the picks may gain money. But then there will be thousands of players that completed the previous/current LS meta and got their sprocket dispenser and as with the candy corn node or quartz node, it will give a constant supply (beware of TP flippers).

If they ever make it so the WW pick gives sprockets in ADDITION to the bonus ore you can get, then you’re free to complain. It’s not the case, the pick is a convenience item at its current state, and even inferior to the previous ones if you don’t want to craft Zealot’s gear. And that’s why I think it doesn’t need an official response, as it is not the predicament some people make it out to be.

What IS an issue, in my opinion, is lack of proper advertising of the product. Because the text implies you get sprockets as a BONUS and not instead of something you’d otherwise get. It should be made clear how the sprocket gain works and what people are buying into, as it is quite costly. THAT is what Anet failed to communicate and what you can be mad about, I think. When it comes to paying real money, you need to be clear on your terms or you might disgruntle your consumers.

Again though, I cannot in recent memory remember ever getting bonus ore (NOT bonus strikes, that’s a different thing altogether) from ore nodes using the Molten Pick. People are claiming it happens, but my own personal experience is not bearing this out. So, there’s three possible scenarios here:

1. I’m just extremely unlucky (like, astronomically unlucky) and not getting any bonus ore at all, despite getting bonus strikes all the time.

I’m inclined to disbelieve this scenario, because prior to picking up the Watchwork Pick for my mule that’s perma-parked in my Home Instance, he was using Steel Picks to mine the nodes there and he never got bonus ore from the Copper/Silver/Gold nodes either. (Gemstones, yes, but no bonus ore.)

2. The Molten Pick is bugged and not giving any bonus ore on strikes, whereas normal picks would. (In which case, this is a MAJOR bug, ANet!)

3. People are confusing the bonus gemstones given from mining ore nodes in their memory with getting bonus ore, or the ore was actually given out through bonus strikes rather than a 2 × 1 ore per strike.

something Anet said:

“Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

that was long ago…
Fool me once, shame on you.

Honestly, they don’t need to dignify this nonsense with a response. The amount of kittening over a pick that grants you the equivalent of an extra 40 COPPER per 5 swings is at best hilarious, and more generally, depressingly sad. The scale of this “reward” is less than that of buying a booster-pack, or the potential rewards of black lion chests, both of which have been available on the gemstore since launch.

dAcIaW.5107:

something Anet said:

“Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

What is unfair about 40 extra copper from an occasional node. Between theexistence of this pick, the fact that very few people will ever want the stats these items make, and the home instance nodes, the prices of these sprocket things is never going to be material in any way.

Even the most casual player should be offended at the notion that this completely immaterial “bonus” is in any way an “unfair advantage” that someone has over them.

if the watchwork pick gives a sprocket why cant they give the molten pick a chance to get a bar of the node you’re mining? i really find this so unfair because now i know its just best to wait and buy last then to buy something when it first comes out

Alfador.7649:

Honestly, they don’t need to dignify this nonsense with a response. The amount of kittening over a pick that grants you the equivalent of an extra 40 COPPER per 5 swings is at best hilarious, and more generally, depressingly sad. The scale of this “reward” is less than that of buying a booster-pack, or the potential rewards of black lion chests, both of which have been available on the gemstore since launch.

dAcIaW.5107:

something Anet said:

“Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

What is unfair about 40 extra copper from an occasional node. Between theexistence of this pick, the fact that very few people will ever want the stats these items make, and the home instance nodes, the prices of these sprocket things is never going to be material in any way.

Even the most casual player should be offended at the notion that this completely immaterial “bonus” is in any way an “unfair advantage” that someone has over them.

the 40 extra copper….

Alfador.7649:

Honestly, they don’t need to dignify this nonsense with a response. The amount of kittening over a pick that grants you the equivalent of an extra 40 COPPER per 5 swings is at best hilarious, and more generally, depressingly sad. The scale of this “reward” is less than that of buying a booster-pack, or the potential rewards of black lion chests, both of which have been available on the gemstore since launch.

dAcIaW.5107:

something Anet said:

“Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

What is unfair about 40 extra copper from an occasional node. Between theexistence of this pick, the fact that very few people will ever want the stats these items make, and the home instance nodes, the prices of these sprocket things is never going to be material in any way.

Even the most casual player should be offended at the notion that this completely immaterial “bonus” is in any way an “unfair advantage” that someone has over them.

So an unfair advantage is only that if its a big advantage? More importantly I think what people are worried about is if this will set a precedence. Anet will keep erasing the line and seeing what the players are willing to accept and what Anet can get away with.

dAcIaW.5107:

something Anet said:

it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time._"
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

It’s not unfair because everyone has the ability to buy one.

Terok.7315:

Alfador.7649:

Honestly, they don’t need to dignify this nonsense with a response. The amount of kittening over a pick that grants you the equivalent of an extra 40 COPPER per 5 swings is at best hilarious, and more generally, depressingly sad. The scale of this “reward” is less than that of buying a booster-pack, or the potential rewards of black lion chests, both of which have been available on the gemstore since launch.

dAcIaW.5107:

something Anet said:

“Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time.”
- Mike O’Brien (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2/)

things have changed i guess eh Mike?

What is unfair about 40 extra copper from an occasional node. Between theexistence of this pick, the fact that very few people will ever want the stats these items make, and the home instance nodes, the prices of these sprocket things is never going to be material in any way.

Even the most casual player should be offended at the notion that this completely immaterial “bonus” is in any way an “unfair advantage” that someone has over them.

So an unfair advantage is only that if its a big advantage? More importantly I think what people are worried about is if this will set a precedence. Anet will keep erasing the line and seeing what the players are willing to accept and what Anet can get away with.

Fairness is a matter of materiality. Immaterial matters are neither fair nor unfair because, at the risk of sounding redundant, they have no material relevance. The “advantage” is so small that it is of effectively ZERO real consequence. You can already buy boosters, revive orbs, repair canisters, vendor summons, and other items on the gemstore that provide a far larger and more relevant boost than an average of 5 extra copper per swing. If this is truly an issue to someone, they have far, far more pressing issues of scope and priorities than a gemstore item with negligible material benefit does.

Let’s do some basic math here, using today’s values.
This pick costs 1,000 gems. If I bought 1,000 gems and converted it directly to gold, which people have been able to do since day one… I would get 61.10g, give or take a couple silver, at the conversion as of 5 minutes ago. Value of a sprocket was 38c when I looked. For the sake of simplicity let’s call it 40c.

To recap:

1,000 gems = 1 pick OR 61.10g
1 sprocket = 40c (0.0040g)
Avg swings per sprocket = 5
avg sprocket value per swing = 8c

Q: How many ores would I have to mine for this pick to pay for itself and therefore start actually paying off financially? (We are only discussing the benefits of the sprockets since this is the only part of the pick that is different from the last 2 and thus generating all the kittening).

A:
61.10g / 0.0040g (sprocket value) = 15275 sprockets to cancel out redeemable value of gems

(15275 sprockets) x (5 swings per sprocket) = 76375 total swings.

It will take you over SEVENTY-SIX THOUSAND swings of that pick to recover the value you would have gotten if you just turned the gems into gold, right now, today. Even if the value of the sprockets quadrupled, we are still talking about TENS OF THOUSANDS of swings.

This is not, nor will it ever be, a material advantage to anyone, any more than it would have been to just convert their gems to gold in the first place.

picklock.4973:

if the watchwork pick gives a sprocket why cant they give the molten pick a chance to get a bar of the node you’re mining? i really find this so unfair because now i know its just best to wait and buy last then to buy something when it first comes out

As time goes on, options get better and prices go down. Is it “unfair” that if you waited to buy a computer “later” you could get a better computer for the same price, or the same computer cheaper? Absolutely not. If I waited to start playing Guild wars 2 months after it came out, I could have gotten the game for at least $20 cheaper. Yet somehow neither I nor anyone else who bought it at release is feeling “unfairly” treated as a result of this (or if they are, they are at least ashamed enough of their mindset not to bother anyone else with it).

Alfador.7649:

-snip-
Fairness is a matter of materiality. Immaterial matters are neither fair nor unfair because, at the risk of sounding redundant, they have no material relevance. The “advantage” is so small that it is of effectively ZERO real consequence.
-snip-

It just seems rather subjective to imply that the bonus lacks any value or advantage because of how small or “negligible” it is, but if it is as you say and the bonus is of no real consequence — why not put troubled minds at peace and remove it all together? All the same, I’m not really advocating for action either way. I’m more concerned with what precedence this will set.

Terok.7315:

Alfador.7649:

-snip-
Fairness is a matter of materiality. Immaterial matters are neither fair nor unfair because, at the risk of sounding redundant, they have no material relevance. The “advantage” is so small that it is of effectively ZERO real consequence.
-snip-

It just seems rather subjective to imply that the bonus lacks any value or advantage because of how small or “negligible” it is, but if it is as you say and the bonus is of no real consequence — why not put troubled minds at peace and remove it all together? All the same, I’m not really advocating for action either way. I’m more concerned with what precedence this will set.

I honestly couldn’t give 2 kitten paws if it was removed or not. I didn’t buy one, and I have no intent of buying one, because of precisely how immaterial it is. That said, I challenge someone to actually sit there with a straight face and tell me it gives a player an “advantage” to spend 1,000 gems on an item that is quite literally going to take over seventy-six thousand uses to recoup the current gold conversionb value of the gems spent. At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, even if the sprockets quadrupled in value (which they are unlikely to do, given their limited uses and the various ongoing avenues of obtaining them), we’re still talking about well over 10,000 uses before the item “pays for itself” so to speak.

As for subjectivity, yes, materiality CAN be subjective, and often is. A thousand dollars is certianly going to mean more to a poor single parent with 2 kids to feed than it is going to mean to a COE with a 6-figure salary, but when you actually look at it relative to the cost of the item, it becomes rather objective, does it not? If you spend $61 on a new tool that is going to give you back 4 tenths of a cent every time you use it, it’s an objective fact that it’s going to take many thousands of uses before that tool is in any way beneficial over a similar tool that does the exact same job without the cost savings. I ’d love to be introduced to a rational human being that actually thinks such savings are at all meaningful.

As for precedent, the only way something wholly irrelevant can set a precedent is if people make the mistake of misattributing relevance to it. The sooner people realize how irrelevant it really is, the sooner people will move on. Anet already knows this is irrelevant, and all this does for them is confirm that people will flip out no matter how small the change, so why bother sticking to the small ones? It basically tells them there’s no point in worrying about crossing a line because any step at all is going to cross it anyway.

Alfador.7649:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, even if the sprockets quadrupled in value (which they are unlikely to do, given their limited uses and the various ongoing avenues of obtaining them), we’re still talking about well over 10,000 uses before the item “pays for itself” so to speak.

Your base premise is wrong.

You clearly have never tried to sell any of the runes or sigils that require sprockets. Do you even have the recipes? Well, I do. And I can tell you that each one of them sells well, and relatively fast. There is a huge demand for these.

Now let’s calculate a bit. 1000 runes = 250k sprockets. 1000 watchwork mechanisms = 500k sprockets. 1000 sigils = 250k sprockets.
There, we only made 1000 sigils, runes, and armor insignias or weapon inscription. Which is peanuts compared to the demand for them.
Yet we already used 1 million sprockets.

Edit: I forgot to add sprockets for a bit of jewelry. But you get the picture.

Buttercup.5871:

Alfador.7649:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here, even if the sprockets quadrupled in value (which they are unlikely to do, given their limited uses and the various ongoing avenues of obtaining them), we’re still talking about well over 10,000 uses before the item “pays for itself” so to speak.

Your base premise is wrong.

You clearly have never tried to sell any of the runes or sigils that require sprockets. Do you even have the recipes? Well, I do. And I can tell you that each one of them sells well, and relatively fast. There is a huge demand for these.

Now let’s calculate a bit. 1000 runes = 250k sprockets. 1000 watchwork mechanisms = 500k sprockets. 1000 sigils = 250k sprockets.
There, we only made 1000 sigils, runes, and armor insignias or weapon inscription. Which is peanuts compared to the demand for them.
Yet we already used 1 million sprockets.

Edit: I forgot to add sprockets for a bit of jewelry. But you get the picture.

No, my base premise is still absolutely fine. You’re just missing the principles of economics or finance that explain this. It’s a matter of opportunity cost. A 40c sprocket is still a 40c sprocket. If I sell all my sprockets and make 40c a piece, that is no different than if I use those sprockets to make something, because in the end, all getting those sprockets from the pick did was save me from having to spend that same 40 copper per piece. Any competent economist will tell you that there is ZERO difference in the value of a material between selling it for a price, or not having to pay that price by getting it for free.

You are telling me that the demand for these sprockets is very high, but the simple fact is, despite how high it is, the supply far outstrips the demand, and that renders the demand almost completely irrelevant. If anything the presence of this pick further keeps the supply numbers up there, and even further contributes to keeping that price down in the future

You know that Scarlet is going to be gone in a month right? No more invasions and such? No more Scarlett’s lair. No more sprockets. Only from the pick. And the pick probably provides 0.1% of the current supply.