Guild Wars 2

Korsbaek.9803:

first of the temples are most likely corrupt by zhietan so they most likely needs to be torn down before anyone gets promision to move in there.
the humans dont have the man power to move in there and even if they do kryta as a nation has no right to claim it in any way and saying that the queen is reltated to the orrian king is a no good else your given each monarch in europe the right to claim each trone as they are all related so nope dont work. when you go on one trone you give up the right for any other.

the land will be a new nation if anything and the nation will be mixed in some way as i can not see humans even trying to keep them out without coursing a world war.

And this is exactly why the humans CAN’T have Orr. The humans who originally lived there are all dead. The humans who exist in Tyria today are not Orrian. There are no humans who have claim to Orr.

The next strongest claim is that of the race that inspired the Orrian’s to abdicate their very lives: the Charr. Since the Charr are the same people who existed back when the Vizier sank Orr into the sea, minus the Flame Legion, who have been cast out, they have a strong claim by way of conquest. And if they intend to settle Orr, who’s going to stop them? They’re the only race outside of the Asura who know how to live off barren land, and the Asura aren’t war-like enough to fight them over it.

After that, the next strongest claim would have to be the Sylvari because they stand the greatest chance of reviving the land and bringing it back to bloom quickest. Plus they really need something more than sharing the territory of the Asura.

Except the Orrians DIDN’T abdicate their lives. One vizier cast one spell with or without the knowledge that it would destroy the nation. It wasn’t an acknowledgement of charr supremacy, it was more like the mother of all backfires.

You can’t have a claim to a nation that no longer exists, and claiming land only works within the context of an existing government. However, humans do have a strong claim to the things on that land, including such monuments as the cathedrals, by the dual justifications of cultural relevancy- these things are innately worth more to the humans than to any other race because of their shared history- and divine right- much of the architecture of Orr seems to have come from the gods themselves, and humans are their chosen people.

There ARE living Orrians around, but they hide their heritage due to Orr being the source of the risen who brought so many suffering.

Anyone who says charrs have a right or will try to claim, know nothing about what’s going on and are incapable of logical thinking.

Narcemus.1348:

I don’t know why everyone thinks the Cathedrals need to be torn down because of Zhaitan’s corruption. We’ve cleared out and removed enemies and cut the temples connection to Zhaitan many times, plus the magic of the land itself has started the process of cleansing, thus most likely the Cathedrals will eventually be cleansed just like the rest of the land.

zhaitan corrupted the land yes and the land will be uncorrupt agien but the statues are magical and the magic is corrupt so we need to remove them(from the main temples) as all we do is cut the connection between the statues in the world from the once in the temple so the once im the temple is clearly corrupt and magic thats corrupt cant be uncorrupt so far.

Korsbaek.9803:

Narcemus.1348:

I don’t know why everyone thinks the Cathedrals need to be torn down because of Zhaitan’s corruption. We’ve cleared out and removed enemies and cut the temples connection to Zhaitan many times, plus the magic of the land itself has started the process of cleansing, thus most likely the Cathedrals will eventually be cleansed just like the rest of the land.

zhaitan corrupted the land yes and the land will be uncorrupt agien but the statues are magical and the magic is corrupt so we need to remove them(from the main temples) as all we do is cut the connection between the statues in the world from the once in the temple so the once im the temple is clearly corrupt and magic thats corrupt cant be uncorrupt so far.

I have 2 questions:

1. Do you speak English?
2. Are you watching any reasons or you are just making up your arguement out of charr fanboyship?
3. Did you play the game? The statues can be cleansed.

1. yes
2. im not a charr fanboy in any way plus the lesser statues can be cleaned yes but the major once are just disabled tho that will make them so they are still corrupt but cant do anything. with the lesser statues in the world.
3. yes i play the game and the lesser statues can be cut off from the source and therefor remove the corruption yes.

and a question to you.
are you a human fanboy

unless you have a way to uncorrupt the magic in the statue i cant see any way but to tear it down

Forgotten magic. There, your whole argument is annihilated. Forgotten magic + Trahearne’s cleansing magic = Orr can return to its former glory. They’ll need many masons, agriculturists, and herders/animal breeders, though.

what forgoten magic cleanses the corrupt magic by the dragons?
the bloodstone toke all NONE coorupt magic in the world and starved the dragons to hybernation that is not the same as saying that forgotten magic uncurropted it

but it is true that the forgotten can use uncorruptebla magic but as the statues are corrupt in some way since we need to free them that cant be the chase with them

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)#Forgotten

Refer to this to answer all your questions.

The seers created the bloodstone. The forgotten have magic that can remove corruption, ultimately even allowing them to free a champion from her master.

Orr is located within the Sea of Sorrows, so LA seems to have jurisdiction over it as soon as the pact moves out. The Lionguard claimed Southsun Cove for that same reason. Also, any rights humans had to the land were thrown out when their king decided to sink Orr instead of evactuating. If anyone has the right to Orr, its the many displaced by other dragons, like the kodan and quaggan kicked out by Jormag, or ogres forced out by the Brand. The majority of them will flock to either LA or to other places with their race. Either way, they will need much more space as the Branded and Icebrood expand their territory, and Orr or Southsun are the best places I can think of, and no one wants to live with Karka.

Erm, the King, that we know of, had no idea that the Vizier was going to destroy the country. Heck, we don’t have evidence that the Vizier knew, but it does seem to hint that if the Vizier did know, he tricked the King into thinking that what he was doing would save them, not harm them.

Lionguard probably claimed Southsun to prevent the Consortium from causing another Karka attack, not because they’re land hungry.

You honestly think the Kodan will go as far south as Orr?

Quaggan may decide to live in the waters around Orr, but that still leaves the land free.

Ogres weren’t pushed out because of the Branding. They lived in the mountains and are coming out to fight now that the charr have backed off. Branding didn’t hurt their homelands at all. Merely hit some of their hunting parties. Plus, even if relocated, it would be a forced relocation and very few ogres would make it to Orr (because they would fight it the whole way).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Except the Orrians DIDN’T abdicate their lives. One vizier cast one spell with or without the knowledge that it would destroy the nation. It wasn’t an acknowledgement of charr supremacy, it was more like the mother of all backfires.

The Vizier ruled them, or acted in the name of the ruler. That’s what a Vizier is. So they put their lives in his hands, and he killed them.

And not Supremacy, SUPERIORITY! They feared the Charr so much that they were willing to risk death (and got it) rather than submit. That’s a great honor.

You can’t have a claim to a nation that no longer exists, and claiming land only works within the context of an existing government. However, humans do have a strong claim to the things on that land, including such monuments as the cathedrals, by the dual justifications of cultural relevancy- these things are innately worth more to the humans than to any other race because of their shared history- and divine right- much of the architecture of Orr seems to have come from the gods themselves, and humans are their chosen people.

If the nation no longer exists, then one can claim anything one wants. It’s up to someone to come up with a better claim, and as the human gods vacated Orr long ago, they don’t have the better claim. Sorry.

Drakkon.4782:

They feared the Charr so much that they were willing to risk death (and got it) rather than submit. That’s a great honor.

lol! This ^ is win.

Wow, no one reads do they? They knew the Vizier had a plan to save Orr. No one except MAYBE the Vizier himself knew that it would destroy them all… The Vizier and only the Vizier made that decision for everyone. If anyone was a coward, it was him.

Drakkon.4782:

The Vizier ruled them, or acted in the name of the ruler. That’s what a Vizier is. So they put their lives in his hands, and he killed them.

And not Supremacy, SUPERIORITY! They feared the Charr so much that they were willing to risk death (and got it) rather than submit. That’s a great honor.

This is BS. They never put their lives into the Vizier’s hands. The soldiers and civilians continued to fight, hell, they may’ve even annihilated the charr army had they rallied behind the Gates of Arah. What the higher-ups knew was that the the Vizier had a plan. He never told anyone what it was – unless he was such a kitten that he drowsed the alert level by saying he had everything under control -, only that it would help their cause greatly. But in no way did the Orrians surrender, waiting for that coward Khilbron to emerge from his tower. They fought and paid with charr blood for every inch of land they lost.

Drakkon.4782:

If the nation no longer exists, then one can claim anything one wants. It’s up to someone to come up with a better claim, and as the human gods vacated Orr long ago, they don’t have the better claim. Sorry.

Except Orr exists. Its culture, its faith, its memories. The land is being revived, the cities are being cleansed and will be rebuilt in the end. There are living Orrians hiding their heritage in Kryta. Nobody else has better claim than humanity… more precisely, the lost daughters and sons of Orr.

And Charr hold no claim. In fact they don’t care about the land one bit. Their whole plan was just to wipe out humanity in one swift stroke and of course their gods kept aiming them to Arah, so that’s where their army went. Plus none of the Legions are in anywhere close to the shape they need to be in to hold land that far out. It’s wreckless, just like Kryta trying to get control.

Narcemus.1348:

And Charr hold no claim. In fact they don’t care about the land one bit. Their whole plan was just to wipe out humanity in one swift stroke and of course their gods kept aiming them to Arah, so that’s where their army went. Plus none of the Legions are in anywhere close to the shape they need to be in to hold land that far out. It’s wreckless, just like Kryta trying to get control.

I dismiss your claim that they have no claim, but I applaud you for having the ONLY well thought out reasons for them NOT wanting Orr. Good job.

TBH I don’t really see why humans don’t have a claim to their homelands, just hate the humans of Tyria.

Gandarel.5091:

runeblade.7514:

Gandarel.5091:

runeblade.7514:

Charr should want to colonize Orr.

Ascalon is landlocked. If the Charr took over Orr, they will be able to open up ports and begin ruling the seas.

And why would the charr want that place?

I gave you a reason:

Ascalon is landlocked. If the Charr took over Orr, they will be able to open up ports and begin ruling the seas.

And what would they do with a sea? Trade with angry humans in Cantha, Kryta and Elona?

This would definitely start a war for orr and Ascalon.

Let say it does incite a war between human and Charr. So what? Alliances with hatred that is deep-rooted wouldn’t last long anyways. Several ports and naval bases are worth the cost.

Plus, Charr would gain 3 new trading partner. Lion Arch, The Grove, and Rata Sum.

Once Charr opens up port, they can begin Marine technology development. Charr lacks these technology because they don’t have a single port.

Then they can expand to the unknown. Ever seen the Tyrian Globe? Cantha is not the only other continent in existence. Charr can then colonize to other parts of the land for new goods to come into the market.

Try reading Alexander the Great’s history. He conquered part of the Anatolia because then he can open up ports to bring his country prosperity.

Try reading the British Empire history where they conquered many of the Earth’s territory.

Stop dreaming. Charr will have to march trough shiverpeaks for that.
Meanwhile, Palawa’s forces can simply cross scavenger causeway and consider themselves in Orr – I bet they are already dispatching that last now-uncontrolled group of Zhaitan’s risen in desert. When Pact leaves, Joko and his undead friends will be there faster than you could say “swoosh” with your tail.

Winds.3087:

Stop dreaming. Charr will have to march trough shiverpeaks for that.
Meanwhile, Palawa’s forces can simply cross scavenger causeway and consider themselves in Orr – I bet they are already dispatching that last now-uncontrolled group of Zhaitan’s risen in desert. When Pact leaves, Joko and his undead friends will be there faster than you could say “swoosh” with your tail.

If by “march” you mean “drive their machines of war” then yes, and I don’t see a problem with that. It isn’t like the Norn will view it as an act of war.

I’m still trying to grasp where people are getting that the Charr claiming Orr will be seen by ANYONE as an act of war against one of the five races. The Charr aren’t declaring war on Kryta, Ebonhawke, Rata Sum, the Grove, or Hoelbrak. Any surviving Orrians will have to speak up and make a case for reclaiming their homeland, which will require proving that they can.

Drakkon.4782:

Winds.3087:

Stop dreaming. Charr will have to march trough shiverpeaks for that.
Meanwhile, Palawa’s forces can simply cross scavenger causeway and consider themselves in Orr – I bet they are already dispatching that last now-uncontrolled group of Zhaitan’s risen in desert. When Pact leaves, Joko and his undead friends will be there faster than you could say “swoosh” with your tail.

If by “march” you mean “drive their machines of war” then yes, and I don’t see a problem with that. It isn’t like the Norn will view it as an act of war.

I’m still trying to grasp where people are getting that the Charr claiming Orr will be seen by ANYONE as an act of war against one of the five races. The Charr aren’t declaring war on Kryta, Ebonhawke, Rata Sum, the Grove, or Hoelbrak. Any surviving Orrians will have to speak up and make a case for reclaiming their homeland, which will require proving that they can.

What kind of ally takes your ancestral land away from you by force if you already made a huge sacrifice to give up Ascalon, their ‘ancestral land’?

I’m sure the Order of Whispers wouldn’t let it happen. They are already behind the main political events.

Charrs aren’t that kittened. They won’t do it. Claiming some ‘filthy faraway human soil plagued with their gods’, won’t happen. This wold be the most illogical thing to happen in the lore, ever.

Charrs are in war with Flame Legion from north, branded from east, separatists from south (and within their borders) and ghosts also within. They won’t run away from this fight and will definitely not want to have Kryta attack from the West and Ascalon from the south.

I don’t care who takes it. As an Asura, I stand to profit either way.

[Flips a coin.]

Alright, Kryta got heads. May humanity take Orr, and may they purchase shiploads of my fine goods and request Asura gates for each of their monuments to vanity.

Gandarel.5091:

What kind of ally takes your ancestral land away from you by force if you already made a huge sacrifice to give up Ascalon, their ‘ancestral land’?

What “Ancestral Land” are you talking about? Orr isn’t the ancestral home of any of the nations on the Tyria right now. Stragglers and refuges need to stand up and be counted before we can possibly claim that the Orrian culture isn’t dead. So far, they’re keeping quiet. If they existed, they should have been the FIRST Living Story, not a forgotten footnote.

I’m sure the Order of Whispers wouldn’t let it happen. They are already behind the main political events.

Unimportant and irrelevant. The OoW isn’t a factor here. Unless we see a plotline or event that indicates that the OoW is taking a side in this issue, they aren’t. They’re going to sit on their tails and watch. It’s what they’re good at.

Charrs aren’t that kittened. They won’t do it. Claiming some ‘filthy faraway human soil plagued with their gods’, won’t happen. This wold be the most illogical thing to happen in the lore, ever.

I’m going to chalk this up to brain-eating parasites. You look like you’re quoting someone, but I’ve never seen this quote in the game EVER, so I think you’re just pulling it out of your kitten. The illogical thing going on here is trying to act like an expansionistic militarized people like the Charr, fractured though the Legions may SEEM, won’t look on fresh, unclaimed territory as a place where they can build a base, far from their enemies, where they can operate in safety and security to develop strategies and technology that will decimate their opponents with a minimum of casualties. HOW IS THAT NOT LOGICAL!?!?!?

Think before you open your mouth.

Charrs are in war with Flame Legion from north, branded from east, separatists from south (and within their borders) and ghosts also within. They won’t run away from this fight and will definitely not want to have Kryta attack from the West and Ascalon from the south.

My point, exactly. Orr is far removed from the fighting, and therefore from the influence of their enemies. Its a perfect location to develop new war machines and strategies. PER-FECT

I mean lore wise we could have lots of possibilities, but game-play wise the only undead faction that could ever replace Zhaitan it’d be Joko’s forces.
I guess we could “clean” Orr lore wise, but I think it’ll be an undead place for a while.
If A.Net decides to actually clean Orr I hope they do a better job than Blizzard with the plague-lands.

Okay, I give it a shot…

Drakkon.4782:

What “Ancestral Land” are you talking about? Orr isn’t the ancestral home of any of the nations on the Tyria right now. Stragglers and refuges need to stand up and be counted before we can possibly claim that the Orrian culture isn’t dead. So far, they’re keeping quiet. If they existed, they should have been the FIRST Living Story, not a forgotten footnote.

Orr is as much human ancestral land as ascalon is Charr ancestral land. Even more so in fact. As I already explained countless times in this thread humans have a claim that is valid by their own legal system. In human law a kingdom is bound to a single person, not the people or borders or anything else. It works pretty much like a european kingdom worked in the middle ages. This one person is the monarch, in Tyria, it obviously doesn’t matter if the monarch is male or female but there has to be one.
If the last remaining monarch dies, you have to find the closest relative of the monarch and crown this person. No monarch means no kingdom. However, if no monarch is around, even if it is for hundreds of years, the kingdom can still be restored, if someone can proof that he is related to the last monarch or his family (in Tyria’s case, it could even go as far back as King Doric!). As long as humans find someone (and with Queen Jennah alone, they already have a descendant of Doric) they can restore Orr according to their own law.
The important thing, do the other races give a crap about human laws? The Charr didn’t in the case of Ascalon, so they took it by force, but it did cost them a lot. I doubt they would do the same for a remote peninsula that is of little strategical value for them (note how they, while experimenting with nautical warfare, are still a land based power). Of course, what helped the Charr in Ascalon’s case, despite it being directly south of their homeland is also that they had that “sort of” valid claim (since they have no legal system about owning territory, that we know of) that Ascalon is their ancestral homeland. Not really true since they just conquered it first, but apparently solid enough so that no outside power would see the Charr’s occupation of Ascalon as illegitimate.
Orr on the other hand, never was Charr land. All they did was send an army there, which got blown up. That’s no basis for a claim and could lead to other races, and political groups to perceive the Charr as power hungry conquerers (well I guess the humans already do :P).
To sum it up, the Charr don’t need Orr and trying to get it would only ignite the flames of war between Charr and humans again, thereby destroying Smodur’s, Malice’s and Jennah’s hard work. In other words, it would be the single most brain-dead thing the Charr could possibly do.

Korsbaek.9803:

first of the temples are most likely corrupt by zhietan so they most likely needs to be torn down before anyone gets promision to move in there.
the humans dont have the man power to move in there and even if they do kryta as a nation has no right to claim it in any way and saying that the queen is reltated to the orrian king is a no good else your given each monarch in europe the right to claim each trone as they are all related so nope dont work. when you go on one trone you give up the right for any other.

the land will be a new nation if anything and the nation will be mixed in some way as i can not see humans even trying to keep them out without coursing a world war.

I don’t think you’ve actually been to Orr, because even with Zhaitan alive the cathedrals can be cleansed.

And as for the land, more likely than not it will be a no-creature’s land, with humans being the custodians for Arah and the temples specifically seeing as those locations hold significance only to them and Noone else (except maybe the Priory and OoW, for research purposes in the way of dragon influence, corruption, and general Orrian History). Though honestly, it won’t be till at least a few more years that Orr will be cured. Sure, Sylvari magic OP, but a landmass of the size takes time to cleanse 100%.

Drakkon.4782:

If by “march” you mean “drive their machines of war” then yes, and I don’t see a problem with that. It isn’t like the Norn will view it as an act of war.

Dredge will. They see shiverpeaks as their territory. And if you haven’t noticed, they have their own machines of war – equal, if not more advanced than charr ones.

1. Asura are not stupid enough to attack emensly powerful beings who they believe make up a sizable amount of the fabric of reality (See Eternal Alchemy). Maybe the Inquest or Council, but not Asura as a whole.

2. The Human gods have left the physical world mainly because of all the damage they caused and a desire to let humanity grow.

3. Finally in a few years or is going to be really fertile. As its land is literally drenched with nutrients and with all those decomposing corpses… It may not smell to good at first but that place will be able grow anything in a few years.

Drakkon.4782:

Gandarel.5091:

What kind of ally takes your ancestral land away from you by force if you already made a huge sacrifice to give up Ascalon, their ‘ancestral land’?

What “Ancestral Land” are you talking about? Orr isn’t the ancestral home of any of the nations on the Tyria right now. Stragglers and refuges need to stand up and be counted before we can possibly claim that the Orrian culture isn’t dead. So far, they’re keeping quiet. If they existed, they should have been the FIRST Living Story, not a forgotten footnote.

I’m sure the Order of Whispers wouldn’t let it happen. They are already behind the main political events.

Unimportant and irrelevant. The OoW isn’t a factor here. Unless we see a plotline or event that indicates that the OoW is taking a side in this issue, they aren’t. They’re going to sit on their tails and watch. It’s what they’re good at.

Charrs aren’t that kittened. They won’t do it. Claiming some ‘filthy faraway human soil plagued with their gods’, won’t happen. This wold be the most illogical thing to happen in the lore, ever.

I’m going to chalk this up to brain-eating parasites. You look like you’re quoting someone, but I’ve never seen this quote in the game EVER, so I think you’re just pulling it out of your kitten. The illogical thing going on here is trying to act like an expansionistic militarized people like the Charr, fractured though the Legions may SEEM, won’t look on fresh, unclaimed territory as a place where they can build a base, far from their enemies, where they can operate in safety and security to develop strategies and technology that will decimate their opponents with a minimum of casualties. HOW IS THAT NOT LOGICAL!?!?!?

Think before you open your mouth.

Charrs are in war with Flame Legion from north, branded from east, separatists from south (and within their borders) and ghosts also within. They won’t run away from this fight and will definitely not want to have Kryta attack from the West and Ascalon from the south.

My point, exactly. Orr is far removed from the fighting, and therefore from the influence of their enemies. Its a perfect location to develop new war machines and strategies. PER-FECT

Go back to WoW. You don’t care about reasons, you just imagine how the charr could conquer the world.

And yes Orr is considered ancestral human land. Because you know, city of the gods, cathedrals, noone lived there before humanity maybe exept for the Forgotten, allies to the gods, and other such menaningless minor details.

Yeah OoW not important. They are working on to make the Treaty go smooth, and are led by a human. Ofc they will just let a tyrian world war break out that’s so kitening logical.

About the last point. Not PER-FECT. As I said, charrs will never run away nor will invest serious amount of resources to make another war, next to their capitol AND on their ‘new territory’. To transport things to the destination is challenging by itself.

Are people still trying to talk Orr into being ancestral Charr land?

I’m joking here of course. The Charr are divided into Legions which cooperate among each other in some cases, but also hold rivalry and even enmity among each other. Ash and Iron are pro-peace with humanity, and imo unlikely to attempt to forcefully occupy Orr (and risk conflict with the Pact). How likely is it that the Legions (except Flame Legion) would unite to occupy Orr? Very unlikely. Would a single Legion try? Which one, and for what reason? I see none.

As has been said repeatedly, the Charr have too many conflicts to deal with than to risk another one – the Dragonbrand, Flame Legion, Renegades, Separatists and the ghosts…should one Legion try to claim Orr how would the others react? Join in?

No one has claimed Orr so far, and i find it to be unlikely that anyone will – the Pact will keep control over it so that it doesn’t become a pirate’s haven, and then it will most likely be open for all nations.

There is a slim chance that the Charr may turn aggressive again after having dealt with the current threats, but that is far in the future. Given the nature of the Charr it should be likely that this would happen, but there is a difference, not to say a discrepancy between the lore about the Charr (and their behaviour in GW1) and how the Charr actually ARE ingame.

An attempt of the Charr to claim Orr is not impossible, but VERY unlikely.

Question: Why are we assuming the Pact is full of idiots? They would probably just sell the land to the highest bidder, so it will probably be Asura.

Why do you think the pact is a bunch of idiots? You know very well that selling the land to the highest bidder would be the dumbest political situation ever. It could lead to bloodshed and war, plus major factions pulling their support away from the organization. And while the Pact may be able to use the money, I highly doubt they could take losing the manpower and technology.

As to Charr just trudging their war machines over to Orr and claiming it, I think it equally as unlikely. They seem to be made for a very specific land type. Once they are brought through the Crystal Desert or Shiverpeak mountains they will be near worthless, as is seen in certain missions within Orr.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Orr is as much human ancestral land as ascalon is Charr ancestral land. Even more so in fact. As I already explained countless times in this thread

And this is why you’re falling on deaf ears: Which humans? Orrians are dead. Krytans have no claim on Orr. Canthan either. Elonans? Nope. Nada.

See, you just don’t get it. The problem you’re missing is that GW2 treats races properly. Not as one mindless faction, but as separate nations. You can’t say that Orr belongs to the Humans because there are more than one human nations on Tyria. This is why your arguments always fail.

The Charr are made up of three Legions, but they cooperate amongst themselves. They may bicker internally, but they fight as one front. This, too, is a realistic mimicry of the real world. And it is because of this cooperation that makes the Charr the most likely to lay claim to Orr.

Until you formulate an argument that addresses WHICH human nation is suited to defeat a Charr claim, you won’t win any of the arguments. And don’t try the war card. It’s been tried, and it isn’t holding water. No one wants to start a war with the Charr War Machine. The humans have just brokered peace with them. They know that no one wins in a war with a culture that refuses to back down. The Charr will burn the world to the ground if they have to. Everyone knows it, except those who keep saying that anyone but humans will cause a war to break out.

Narcemus.1348:

As to Charr just trudging their war machines over to Orr and claiming it, I think it equally as unlikely. They seem to be made for a very specific land type. Once they are brought through the Crystal Desert or Shiverpeak mountains they will be near worthless, as is seen in certain missions within Orr.

Did you forget about the Asuran Gates? They don’t have to go through any territories. There are Asuran Gates in Orr already. Back alley deals can be made to use the gates fairly easily. More over, Orr itself is changing, as has been also pointed out, which means that the war machines will work much better than they did on the decaying lands.

Drakkon.4782:

And this is why you’re falling on deaf ears: Which humans? Orrians are dead. Krytans have no claim on Orr. Canthan either. Elonans? Nope. Nada.

Speaking of deaf ears…

In GW2 humanity means Kryta. There is currently no Elona or Cantha in it and even if they were, they have no connection to Orr at all, while Kryta does. It’s the legitimate entity entitled to lay claim onto Orr. I won’t explain why as this has been done plenty of times already. Ebonhawke belongs to Kryta currently, and there are a few humans of Orrian descendancy around, who come from…have a guess, Kryta.

I think what you really want to say is that the Charr law means taking what they want by force (which is correct) and that they can take whatever they want (which isn’t) and can ignore human law (great idea with respect to the peace talks). There is no Charr superiority over everyone else, they are too divided and too busy with fighting on several fronts.

Oh, and did you see an Asura Gate in Orr? Nope. I doubt the Asura would agree to set up a gate in Orr for the Charr only. But if they did then the Pact could send all the remaining Risen straight to the Black Citadel. I’d like that.

an issue I see is that the argument of kryta having Orr that hinges on an alleged human law that passes fallen kingdoms to descendeants of peasants. Yet, the supposed charr law of taking what they want by force is some how ignored? This seems to be a double standard that cherry picks information in order to come to a predetermined conclusion.

@Dustfinger Taking what you want isn’t a law, regardless of what the Charr say. That law would trump the Charr claim to Ascalon since the Humans beat them for it.

Dustfinger.9510:

an issue I see is that the argument of Kryta having Orr that hinges on an alleged human law that passes fallen kingdoms to descendents of peasants. Yet, the supposed Charr law of taking what they want by force is some how ignored? This seems to be a double standard that cherry picks information in order to come to a predetermined conclusion.

OMG! CIRCLE THE DATE! DUSTFINGER IS AGREEING WITH ME!

faints

Drakkon.4782:

OMG! CIRCLE THE DATE! DUSTFINGER IS AGREEING WITH ME!

faints

:P

We agree sometimes. When we don’t, it’s nothing personal

Mist.6217:

@Dustfinger Taking what you want isn’t a law, regardless of what the Charr say. That law would trump the Charr claim to Ascalon since the Humans beat them for it.

It absolutely can be. Law is the method through which nations take what they want. So that same law that would promote human claim to Ascalon also promotes charr repossession of it. Making them equal claims. so the desciding factor would then be the might behind the claim. This is true in modern society in the form of possession counting toward rightful claimants.

law
1 [law] Show IPA

noun
1. the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.

2. any written or positive rule or collection of rules prescribed under the authority of the state or nation, as by the people in its constitution. Compare bylaw, statute law.

3. the controlling influence of such rules; the condition of society brought about by their observance: maintaining law and order.

4. a system or collection of such rules.

5. the department of knowledge concerned with these rules; jurisprudence: to study law.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law?s=t

And we have a minimum, 2 millennium long precedance of charr law concerning land that they want. Making it a legal claim. If that humans have a grand right to it based on an aleged self made human law, then the charr can have that same claim. All claims have to be measured with the same ruler or it will only ever be a double standard.

You all forget main thing about Charr. They are practical. Orr is pretty place, but Orr is too far away to claim it now, too much problems with logistic, transport and supply lines. Only chance to get it properly is to relocate an army here, which means war most probably, and charr nation have enough wars running already. So maximal possible claim atm is military/navy base at Orr shore, to research naval technologies and begin to build military/scout/trade/transport fleet. This is more important for them now.

Dustfinger – Our definition =/= Tyrian definitions so what you quoted is moot. Charr claim rights to Ascalon because it use to be their hunting ground but the Humans won the war to take over Ascalon, which per your own definition and this Charr ‘law’ means they have no claim to it any longer. Now they did take it back but they can’t claim it as ancestral lands since their ‘laws’ say once they lost the fight for it they no longer could claim it.

Now on the flip side Human’s don’t have a ‘law’ that states “If I’m bigger and want it all I need to do is beat you for it.” Their law states that if you can prove you are a decedent you have rightful claim to the property.

The Charr ‘law’ holds no sway over Orr since they never won the war to claim it as their territory, Kilborne blew them and everyone else up completely defeating their army.

So by those standards the Human ‘law’ would take precedence since the Charr ‘law’ has no jurisdiction, if you will.

Drakkon.4782:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Orr is as much human ancestral land as ascalon is Charr ancestral land. Even more so in fact. As I already explained countless times in this thread

And this is why you’re falling on deaf ears: Which humans? Orrians are dead. Krytans have no claim on Orr. Canthan either. Elonans? Nope. Nada.

See, you just don’t get it. The problem you’re missing is that GW2 treats races properly. Not as one mindless faction, but as separate nations. You can’t say that Orr belongs to the Humans because there are more than one human nations on Tyria. This is why your arguments always fail.

Oh boy, I rarely laughed so hard at irony. I’m not going to repeat what I said yet again, just reread my posts until you get it, if you don’t, well not my problem anymore. I still hope you will understand how the very post you just responded to is already a counter-arguement to everything you replied. Little suggestion, try not to think in modern terms of independent nations and more like medieval kingdoms.

Dustfinger.9510:

an issue I see is that the argument of kryta having Orr that hinges on an alleged human law that passes fallen kingdoms to descendeants of peasants. Yet, the supposed charr law of taking what they want by force is some how ignored? This seems to be a double standard that cherry picks information in order to come to a predetermined conclusion.

Not really, since we just don’t know if the Charr even have a law like this. The humans do, we know that since they care so much about finding rightful heirs. The Charr seem to go by “who conquers it, can keep it”, which could be a law, but at the same time, it could just be a guiding line. But even if it was a law, they never conquered Orr, so they would still have no legitimate basis for a claim. And going to war with the humans again, would be the complete opposite of what the Iron and Ash Legion want right now, atleast with Smodur and Malice in charge.

Drakkon.4782:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I’m not going to repeat what I said yet again, just reread my posts until you get it, if you don’t, well not my problem anymore. I still hope you will understand how the very post you just responded to is already a counter-arguement to everything you replied. Little suggestion, try not to think in modern terms of independent nations and more like medieval kingdoms.

Mist.6217:

Dustfinger – Our definition =/= Tyrian definitions so what you quoted is moot. Charr claim rights to Ascalon because it use to be their hunting ground but the Humans won the war to take over Ascalon, which per your own definition and this Charr ‘law’ means they have no claim to it any longer. Now they did take it back but they can’t claim it as ancestral lands since their ‘laws’ say once they lost the fight for it they no longer could claim it.

And this is why you guys will never win. Think like real world, don’t think like real world, think historically, don’t think historically. Get your stories straight, then argue against the solid consistent line of reasoning. Until then, you’re all just taking pot shots in the dark hoping to hit something.

Contrary to your belive, Mist and I, do not share the same opinon, even if we are on the vaguely definied same side. So him saying that Tyria has nothing to do with real world history is not my point and I totally disagree with it, since we know human birthright laws are heavily inspired by actual laws we saw in european history. In other words, my “story” is straight and you utterly fail to argue against it.

Gandarel.5091:

Leave this guy alone. He is incapable of thinking.

I do believe you’re trying to insult me. That was rude.

And real world example: if you visit another country, you have to keep to both country’s laws.
There’s Orr. A former human land.

Key word: FORMER. Orr has no government. No people. No laws. Nothing but history and an abandoned culture that no longer exists in any meaningful way.

According to human laws, that’s human land.

Homogenize the race when it suits you, separate the nations when it suits you. Either they’re HUMANS, and Kryta, Ebonhawke, Orr, Cantha and Elona are all one big culture with no separate nations, or they aren’t. Stop artificially blending them together when it suits you.

According to charrs laws, if they conquer it, it’s theirs. Did they conquer it? Nope.

Not yet. But their laws say that if they conquer it, it belongs to them. Therefore, IF they conquer it, it will be Charr land.

According to overall laws, humans can claim Orr and charrs can’t.

Charr can do anything they set their mind to. IF the devs say that they are taking over Orr, then they are. What you think their motivations or lackthereof might be don’t matter. Neither do mine. What matters is if they can do it, and they can. The possibility exists.

And charrs are busy enough to keep their ground in Ascalon, they won’t risk total collapse mostly because they WANT THAT kittenING TREATY. And aside from “YEAH CHARRS DOMINATE THE WORLD GUYS GET ORR WHY NOT”, there’s totally 0 motive to make this step.

The Charr are NOT too busy, particularly now that they have a peace treaty with Ebonhawke, a human nation that has NOT claim AT ALL on Orr, and wouldn’t care if the Charr claimed it because no one (but possible refuges and stragglers) is actually living there, and they COMPLETELY lack the ability to do anything about it anyway.

And while I am pro-Charr, I’m also pro-Asura, and not particularly anti-anyone. It’s just, under the established laws of humanity, the only one’s left to ‘claim’ Orr are peasants and refuges, and if they can’t form an effective government, there’s no point in them doing so. So while “Human” (I’m going to homogenize them because you don’t seem to care about the distinctions between races and nations) laws given them the right to claim Orr, they simply don’t have the will or the means. I doubt, given how Jennah is fighting a campaign not to be seen as a weak Queen, that she would have the resources to expend on propping up a shell government of Orr for the refuges who decide to claim it for their own.

You’ve given great thought to talking about the logistical nightmare that would be the Charr Campaign, but have you given even a moment’s thought to the Human Campaign for Orr? Who, exactly, is going to fight for the Orrians so that they can form their own government? Who is going to collect the scattered members of that failed nation and spread the word that it’s time to “go home”? How many will actually respond? Who will be the new nobility? Who will still be a peasant? Why would anyone be a peasant when the very CROWN is up for grabs? You accused me of being unable to think, but I don’t think you’ve given this part of the argument ANY thought.

Your whole argument against the Charr is a racist house of cards. You don’t like them, so you rail against them, but you don’t have any plans for the other side of the argument. When you, or any “pro-Human” wants to answer those questions, with specifics and in detail, you can continue making the anti-Charr argument. Until then, you can keep the racist kitten in its bag.

I’m out here.

You’ve allowed yourself to get a little too personally involved in this discussion. Go enjoy your time out. You need to back off before you say something that’s going to get you a short enforced forum vacation.

Drakkon.4782:

Now on the flip side Human’s don’t have a ‘law’ that states “If I’m bigger and want it all I need to do is beat you for it.” Their law states that if you can prove you are a decedent you have rightful claim to the property. The Charr ‘law’ holds no sway over Orr since they never won the war to claim it as their territory, Kilborne blew them and everyone else up completely defeating their army.
So by those standards the Human ‘law’ would take precedence since the Charr ‘law’ has no jurisdiction, if you will.

I can’t even begin to state how RACIST this is. Charr laws are stupid so we’ll just ignore them. Human laws are better so we’ll let them hold sway over all of the world.

How exactly is it racist? The Charr don’t have ANY claim to Orr. They NEVER conquered it. They lost the fight when Kilborne blew everything up. From GW1 Wiki “The resulting explosion felled the invading army where it stood.” That means, while the Humans of Orr didn’t win the fight because they died as well, the Charr were wiped off the face of Orr and didn’t conquer anything, hence their law doesn’t apply.

I in no way said “Human laws are so we’ll let them hold sway over all the world.” Don’t put words in my text that aren’t there. I stated since the Charr LOST their law holds no jurisdiction over Orr and since Orr is the ancient lands of Humans their laws hold more jurisdiction.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Contrary to your belive, Mist and I, do not share the same opinon, even if we are on the vaguely definied same side. So him saying that Tyria has nothing to do with real world history is not my point and I totally disagree with it, since we know human birthright laws are heavily inspired by actual laws we saw in european history. In other words, my “story” is straight and you utterly fail to argue against it.

I never said you did. That was my point. You two are arguing the flip side of the same side of the issue, and it’s making both of you look weak and disorganized. From a propaganda standpoint, you guys look foolish, rudderless, and lost on your talking points. It’s like the 2012 Republican Presidential Campaign: Lots of noise but no substance.

Honestly, I love a good debate. I’d like to see stronger arguments coming from the pro-Human side, but right now, you guys collectively aren’t making a very good show of consolidating your position. Until you do, you’re going to look like you’re just doing donuts in the parking lot. Lots of smoke and noise, but you’re not getting anywhere.

I also wasn’t arguing against your point in that post. You make a good point with that, and I don’t necessarily disagree with that logic. HOWEVER, you need to look at my post above this one, and you’ll see where that argument falls down. In all honesty, I think you probably have the best chance of carrying this discussion on rationally and civilly. I look forward to your response.

Sorry for posting consecutively, too. Normally, I would have added this post to the last, but the last one was fairly long, so I decided to break up the set.

Drakkon.4782:

Gandarel.5091:

Leave this guy alone. He is incapable of thinking.

I do believe you’re trying to insult me. That was rude.

And real world example: if you visit another country, you have to keep to both country’s laws.
There’s Orr. A former human land.

Key word: FORMER. Orr has no government. No people. No laws. Nothing but history and an abandoned culture that no longer exists in any meaningful way.

According to human laws, that’s human land.

Homogenize the race when it suits you, separate the nations when it suits you. Either they’re HUMANS, and Kryta, Ebonhawke, Orr, Cantha and Elona are all one big culture with no separate nations, or they aren’t. Stop artificially blending them together when it suits you.

According to charrs laws, if they conquer it, it’s theirs. Did they conquer it? Nope.

Not yet. But their laws say that if they conquer it, it belongs to them. Therefore, IF they conquer it, it will be Charr land.

According to overall laws, humans can claim Orr and charrs can’t.

Charr can do anything they set their mind to. IF the devs say that they are taking over Orr, then they are. What you think their motivations or lackthereof might be don’t matter. Neither do mine. What matters is if they can do it, and they can. The possibility exists.

And charrs are busy enough to keep their ground in Ascalon, they won’t risk total collapse mostly because they WANT THAT kittenING TREATY. And aside from “YEAH CHARRS DOMINATE THE WORLD GUYS GET ORR WHY NOT”, there’s totally 0 motive to make this step.

The Charr are NOT too busy, particularly now that they have a peace treaty with Ebonhawke, a human nation that has NOT claim AT ALL on Orr, and wouldn’t care if the Charr claimed it because no one (but possible refuges and stragglers) is actually living there, and they COMPLETELY lack the ability to do anything about it anyway.
And while I am pro-Charr, I’m also pro-Asura, and not particularly anti-anyone. It’s just, under the established laws of humanity, the only one’s left to ‘claim’ Orr are peasants and refuges, and if they can’t form an effective government, there’s no point in them doing so. So while “Human” (I’m going to homogenize them because you don’t seem to care about the distinctions between races and nations) laws given them the right to claim Orr, they simply don’t have the will or the means. I doubt, given how Jennah is fighting a campaign not to be seen as a weak Queen, that she would have the resources to expend on propping up a shell government of Orr for the refuges who decide to claim it for their own.

You’ve given great thought to talking about the logistical nightmare that would be the Charr Campaign, but have you given even a moment’s thought to the Human Campaign for Orr? Who, exactly, is going to fight for the Orrians so that they can form their own government? Who is going to collect the scattered members of that failed nation and spread the word that it’s time to “go home”? How many will actually respond? Who will be the new nobility? Who will still be a peasant? Why would anyone be a peasant when the very CROWN is up for grabs? You accused me of being unable to think, but I don’t think you’ve given this part of the argument ANY thought.

Your whole argument against the Charr is a racist house of cards. You don’t like them, so you rail against them, but you don’t have any plans for the other side of the argument. When you, or any “pro-Human” wants to answer those questions, with specifics and in detail, you can continue making the anti-Charr argument. Until then, you can keep the racist kitten in its bag.

I’m out here.

You’ve allowed yourself to get a little too personally involved in this discussion. Go enjoy your time out. You need to back off before you say something that’s going to get you a short enforced forum vacation.

So your whole argument is based on ’IF the devs do this or that? Sorry but that is just flat weak.

With what the person said above your post, my stance is mine and no one else. You seem to want to ignore facts in lore that, unless retconned, would allow Orr to be returned to the Humans and once again become a Human nation.

Mist.6217:

How exactly is it racist? The Charr don’t have ANY claim to Orr. They NEVER conquered it. They lost the fight when Kilborne blew everything up. From GW1 Wiki “The resulting explosion felled the invading army where it stood.” That means, while the Humans of Orr didn’t win the fight because they died as well, the Charr were wiped off the face of Orr and didn’t conquer anything, hence their law doesn’t apply.

Captain Hammer: “I remember it differently.” To the Charr, the fact that Kilborne sank the island and kill all of his own people in the process is an admission of weakness, and that they had actually won. Orr IS theirs to claim, because they DID conquer it.

But even that being as it may, the Charr laws don’t have timeframes attached to them, only conditions. Just because they haven’t done it yet doesn’t meant they won’t in the future, and if they can, then it is. Charr laws apply anywhere the Charr go. They really seem to believe that they’re a power unto themselves, and the only laws the obey are their own, unless one of their superiors tells them to obey someone else’s laws, too. It’s the law of the jungle. The strongest make the laws. Charr are strong, and until they fight to a standstill (such as with Ebonhawke), they will not acknowledge another power as being their rival.

The reason there is a peace treaty with Ebonhawke now is because both sides realize the cost of continuing the fight will be the eventual destruction of Ebonhawke, and no one, including the Charr, want that. They realize that the Ebonhawke are strong, and would make stronger allies. It’s a good tactical decision. But in no way does it contradict their belief that if they can take it, it’s theirs.

I think the problem you’re having with Charr laws is that they are really just the rules of bullying others. I’m strong, so if I take it from you, you can’t have it back unless you can take it back. Look at Ascalon. It was Charr lands for generations until the humans came. Then the humans held it for generations. But the Charr were about to take it back from the humans, who pulled a Kilborne, but didn’t destroy all the Charr. Instead, the Foefire created ghosts who will never fully go away, and so the Charr will always have to deal with them. And they will. But the Charr took back their lands, by force, and caused another enemy to destroy themselves rather than submit. Charr call that a victory, and claim the defeated’s lands. Orr is theirs under their laws, and by their own rights. You don’t have to like it, agree with it, or accept it as a final ruling, but you must accept that in their viewpoint, the Charr have claim.

I in no way said “Human laws are so we’ll let them hold sway over all the world.” Don’t put words in my text that aren’t there. I stated since the Charr LOST their law holds no jurisdiction over Orr and since Orr is the ancient lands of Humans their laws hold more jurisdiction.

The Charr didn’t lose. Kilborne kicked the board over. It isn’t the same thing. To the Charr, he acknowledged defeat, but attempted to deny the Charr their prize. Now that it’s back, it’s theirs.