Guild Wars 2

Basaltface.2786:

Nah, got my burn already. As cool as legendary armor might sound and as cool as the white mantle weapons and sabetha rifle\backpack might look.. its not worth the verbal abuse.

Don’t judge the raiding community as a whole due to the experiences a few gave you. I would highly recommend searching for a raiding guild to properly learn how to deal with this sort of content. Pugs tend to be toxic. If this doesn’t interest you the only thing I have to add is once there is an organized way to create pugs (LFR) this sort of content will appear to be a lot easier. More and more players will funnel through the content completing it giving off the illusion that raiding is becoming easier. The community as a whole progresses through content such as this when it comes to pugging.

Edit: I’m not saying it will be as noticeable as a game such as WoW with a vertical and horizontal climb, but you can still…sort of…climb the horizontal ladder this game has to offer. (Vertical being gear and horizontal being skill.)

cranos.5913:

You’re still missing the point rly. You can pick out whatever quotes you want and try to discuss these little things

A tactic to misdirect a solid argument. It plagues these forums.

cranos.5913:

but it comes down to this. I strongly feel that skill gated rewards are more valuable than time gated rewards. I see this in my guild (which is raid focused) as well.

I agree with you 100%. A reward as prestigious as the theoretical legendary armor should consist of the most difficult content the Dev’s can throw at us. At the very least, raiding should be more rewarding than all else in relation to the amount of effort put in, which Anet has done a fantastic job so far doing so.

It’s not the game’s issue if the player is unwilling to play. This could lead to general population issues which is pointless to speculate on as a player, but it is not a “problem” as it is.

Topics such as these consist of personal speculations based off personal experiences which hold no grounds for an argument. The best thing to do is address your opinion, and move on. Ignore the trolls who preach opinions like they are facts.

If the player is willing to play, but having trouble then rather than asking for changes, they should be asking for help.

Ohoni.6057:

Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms.

DICTIONARY: the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand

Ohoni.6057:

You’re so focused on reading that definition the way that you believe supports your case, that you refuse to accept the well established fact that a business transaction is not a favor by any definition. It’s the difference between knowing a word and understanding it.

…And yet, you are still not showing me where it is literally defined a favor can not include something in return. It’s really simple. Go show me where you’re coming up with this fabrication. I’ll wait.

When did I say a business transaction equals a favor? A service does not equal a business transaction which does not equal exploitation? You’re digging yourself deeper into this war on dictionaries.

Raiders who carry players through kills are doing the players a favor due to the fact that they are essentially paying for time, not the kill. They are paying for the right to not put the work in. Raiders aren’t making a great deal off this. This isn’t highly profitable. They are sitting their 10th in order to get YOU the KILL. Now ignore everything I’m saying here and please continue to tell me why the definition of a word according to the dictionary is not correct.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, if it were not broken in some way, there would not be a secondary market in circumventing it.

What you are generally stating here is that all systems within video games where there is a potential for carrying for profit essentially means the system is broken. I just don’t understand your logic as this will literally almost apply everywhere. Simply because you do not enjoy raiding, does not imply that raiding is broken as the market for carrying is not limited to GW2. Difficulty and work do not equal broken. It simply goes against what you personally want.

Ohoni.6057:

Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms.

DICTIONARY: the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand

Ohoni.6057:

True, a favor can be a service and a service can be a favor, however, if you request and receive payment for something, then it can still be a service, but can no longer be a favor.

Please, show me where you are finding a favor can not be enacted with the grounds that the favor will be returned. This is getting ridiculous. Ever hear the phrase “return the favor.” You’re literally arguing against a dictionary at this point.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, a mechanic in the real world is not immoral, he is providing a service that people require. If, however, it were possible to build a car that NEVER needed repairs, and auto-mechanics were actively fighting to prevent that from happening, then they would be the bad guys. Service industries are fair when they provide a service that absolutely needs to be provided, not when they perpetuate a broken system so that they can benefit from it.

A system deemed “broken” by you. One that requires work you are not willing to put forth. This system is not broken. You are simply refusing to be a part of it.

Ohoni – “I will admit there were some surprised reactions when I let everyone know my tempest had 1600 toughness.”

Ardenwolfe.8590:

I suspect, if Ohoni was a lead marketer for Guild Wars 2, the game wouldn’t be in the state it’s in. That said, he’s offering his opinion based on his experience. And he’s been extremely civil about it. If you disagree, that’s fine.

But there’s no need for your snark.

Woah woah ease up on the name calling. Don’t want to be snarky. There’s a different between expressing your opinions and staring your opinions as facts.

Ohoni.6057:

Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms.

the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand

Quote of the day!

I can’t even. I don’t care how you define “service” or “favor.” No, really, I don’t. I’ll listen to the good old book called the dictionary. Generally, when receiving favors, it is usually done to get something back… You mow your dad’s lawn (a favor) without him asking to lessen the impending doom of that F you received etc etc. You can mow it for no reason as well. A favor is not limited by this. It is pointless arguing this. You can service someone’s vehicle without payment. This is still a service and it is still a favor. I was simply trying to stop you where you were going off about how people who sell runs are exploiting. If you want to continue this favor/service thing…I suggest you find a source claiming that favors can not include rewards and services must include them.

Ohoni.6057:

People who offer to sell raid slots aren’t doing favors, they are exploiting people’s weakness, while fighting to maintain the system in which that exploitation has a place. There is NO justifying it from a moral standpoint.

Ohoni.6057:

If you ask a mechanic to fix your car and he does so for free, then that’s a favor. If he asks for money, then he’s providing a service, not a favor.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not saying that providing services is automatically a bad thing, but it is not a favor.

There you go, you contradicted yourself to push your own agenda by proposing an alternative to “not raiding” is immoral… That is… Unless car mechanics are exploiters?

STIHL.2489:

LOL, so, “not being complete accurate” is how you describe posts that are totally contradicting each other. Cute.

Two posts… by two different people… in different context. Valid argument. I don’t even agree with what “The one to Rule.2593” is saying. I’ve made like 100g full-clearing both wings this week and last. Non-raiders also advocate that they don’t want an easy-mode raid for the rewards, yet here we are… discussing rewards. Notice how this entire thread consists of dozens of opinions, including mine. Opinions….Opinions…Opinions… Onions… Opinions…

Astralporing.1957:

Lol, i was there from the beginning, and “the masses” never asked for it. A small but vocal minority did.

Sort of like the small vocal minority calling for raid nerfs/different raid modes? I can back this up from the fact that Anet created raids and stated that raid participation hit higher numbers than in most games. If you don’t think that is a success then there is no point in continuing this conversation.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s not exactly true. In fact, if you look at it, most MMOs don’t really increase difficulty. Yeah, the mobs get stronger, but at the same time players get supplied with stronger gear to balance it. That creates an illusion that you improve, while in fact you are standing still.

My quote was taken out of context/misunderstood by you. What I am saying is from the start of a game to the end, there should be some sort climb in difficulty, as there is. What players wanted was an additional climb past level 50 fractals. Once the climb ceases the flare of the game wares out. This is a horizontal progression game. You can’t think of it in terms of games with vertical progression.

Astralporing.1957:

No. What you realy need is new goals to pursue, both long and shortterm ones. New maps, skins, achievements, questlines and bosses, new legendaries, scavenger hunts and new reasons to spend resources (and thus new reasons to obtain them).

A game should have more than a farmville incentive to keep playing. Once you achieve all these goals there is nothing. Different players achieve these goals at different rates meaning you need some sort of climb to keep the majority of the community interested.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s actually better not to introduce such mechanics, because not only they require introducing stronger enemies, but eventually either invalidate old content or force devs to put effort into revamping it.

Old content is almost always invalidated by new content. You can only spread the community so far. What do you think is going to happen to HoT when the next few xpacs drop, assuming they do? Can you go on more about how this statement is a fact because you say so? This game doesn’t even promote a vertical ladder. It’s more of a horizontal ladder which requires skill to cross rather than time.

Sird.4536:

It’s a shame there is no Reddit gold system here.

<3

Linken.6345:

If I buy a cup of coffie I pay for it no need to thank the person for doing their jobb, if they see oh its so little left might aswell give this guy the last as refill before a brew another I say thank you since its an favor or as dictonary says act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.

Edit read the boldend part of Ohonis post again it clearly says a service can be a favor if its free.

The definition of a “favor” is not a “free service” or “a service under the assumption that one party is receiving nothing on return.” This is a made-up rule/definition created by Ohoni that differs from the actual definition. Simply because someone on the Internet states something without backing it up, does not make it true. “an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.” is essentially what the 9 people are doing who carry a player through a run. What is the alternative? Well, the alternative is what you guys are advocating against, actually raiding. This is what is “due or usual.” Not payment.

You should be thanking that kind person for brewing you a cup of coffee as they are doing you a FAVOR/SERVICE. There is nowhere that says a favor is not a favor under the condition that the person committing a favor is not receiving anything in return. The fact that you think you shouldn’t thank the person making you coffee, carrying you through a run, working on your house, holding the door for you and taking your coat, waiting the table you are eating at, etc, is literally what is wrong with society today but that discussion has zero relevance to this thread and let’s try not to derail this thread which has had every possible component of discussion taken care of.

It’s beyond me that you’re trying to contradict the literal definition which leads us back to our initial point which Ohoni was implying that this service is merely a way for some to exploit the weak, which is even more absurd since the weak are not tossing out 90-280g for boss kills.

“Stand here and do NOTHING while we CLEAR this content for you.”
“But, but you’re taking advantage of meeee!”
“How so? You don’t like raiding, you never plan on raiding, you have thousands of gold.” “Some random guy on the forums told me this.”
“Ok, get out, we don’t even want your 90g/9 for the hours of work we put into this multiplied by 9.”

(90g divided to the 9 players carrying. Hours of work multiplied by the 9 players who put the effort in to learn the fight. (90g == hours worked * 9)) So, let’s say you spend three hours learning VG. Multiply those hours by 9 for total hours worked (not counting the tenth since they aren’t present for the paid carry.) So, you have 27 hours worked for roughly $9, assuming $10=800 gems. Or, alternatively 3 hours worked for roughly 90 cents. Such a steal. That’s 30 cents for an hour’s worth of work boys.

Ohoni.6057:

You forgot the “. . .for me” part there, it’s vitally important to the accuracy of the comment.

Were you not around when the masses were calling for more difficult content prior to HoT? In general, if a game does not increase in difficulty over time, then the game has no longitivtiy. You can make the difficulty constant, but then the game becomes mindless. In order for a game to be interactively entertaining and promote longitivtiy, there needs to be slight increases in difficulty (a sort of ladder) as the game goes on, especially when adding in player-boosting mechanics such as elite specs.

Linken.6345:

No thats not how favors work a favor is me covring a colleges shift and not taking payment for it. Doing your jobb is not doing favors for people your jobb is directed to. I dont have to say thank you for paying you to do a jobb, if you did it for free that thank you is in order yes.

I bet people love you in the service industry… Look, I don’t even know where this become favor vs service. It’s one of Ohani’s enjoyments where he brings a topic around and around and around varying it each time. Essentially trolling this thread. It’s an endless loop which results in 100’s of pages stating the same thing over… and over… and over… I’m arguing against the point that was raised that a service is equal to exploiting because that is absolutely ridiculous. I represent the status quo. I represent moving Dev effort to other parts of the game such as Living Story, the next expansion, NEW CONTENT. I do not want more Dev attention on raiding despite the fact that I enjoy raiding thoroughly. If you are arguing for different difficulty modes in raids then you are essentially, inadvertently, arguing for less new content.

Ohoni.6057:

Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.

I love calling people out on fallacies and poor arguements, CHECK THIS OUT:

Favor definition:

an act of kindness beyond what is due or usual.
“I’ve come to ask you a favor”
synonyms: service, good turn, good deed, kindness, act of kindness, courtesy
“will you do me a favor?”

Service definition:

the action of helping or doing work for someone.
“millions are involved in voluntary service”
synonyms: favor, kindness, good turn, helping hand; More

SOURCE: THE DICTIONARY

So, nothing else needs to be said on this, unless Ohoni and Linken, you’d like to claim you know more than a dictionary.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Ohoni.6057:

There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.

Interesting. Do you have a link? I could not find any official difficulty standard list.

Don’t bother looking for reason or sources in this thread of toxicity. Everything that needed to be said was said on page one or two. Not 22… or the other thread with 17+ pages… or the other 50 pages of threads on this topic with the same people commenting. A mod really needs to lock these.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re deliberately breaking the analogy to show that it is broken. Congratulations on completely missing the point.

No I’m not, but congratulations on completely missing the point.

Ohoni.6057:

The point is, people can only currently sell raids because there is a market for it.

Yes, exactly like how services which aid people can sell their services because there is a market for it. A mechanic can assist someone with services on their car further reiterating my point.

Ohoni.6057:

There is only a market for it because raids are harder than the accepted standard for this game. If raids were not harder than the accepted standard for the game (either the only raid or an easier version of the raid), then there would be no market for selling raid slots.

Economics 101

Ohoni.6057:

People who sell raid slots are exploiting a situation that does not have to exist, and are actively fighting to prevent that imbalance from being solved. That is wrong, end of story.

People who sell raids are offering a service to those who refuse to raid. The people agreeing to pay money to have this service are well aware of what they are doing. They don’t need your protection buddy. This is wrong. End of story. I can’t fix my own transmission. Does that mean if I get a mechanic to do it he is exploiting me?

Ohoni.6057:

Because “service” and “favor” are not synonyms. A favor can be a service, but a service is not a favor unless it is FREE. If you charge someone to do it, it cannot be a favor.

I disagree. You pay a mechanic to fix your car. He’s doing you a favor. You order a pizza. That delivery driver is doing you a favor. You need your roof fixed. You pay a team which is doing you a favor. You seem to be a part of society that assumes they automatically deserve services. This is obvious. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? It’s probably boarder-lining this topic. Want to know the best part? Overall I am right, as nothing is going to be done to raids no matter how many hundreds of hours you spend here compared to my 30-40 hours spent raiding. Insanity…. Just promise you say “thank you” after receiving services and not “I can’t thank you because you owe me this and services mean you aren’t doing my any favors buddy.”

Ohoni.6057:

Are they currently? No. Would they be if milk could be created completely for free, but they are fighting to suppress that technology so that they can continue to sell milk for a profit? Yes. That’s the issue here.

Milk is created for free, the process of creating milk costs money. Raiding is free. The process of being carried through a raid costs money. Money is a man-made concept. Look. You can rip out and replace the carpet in your house, or you can pay someone to come and do it for you. They aren’t taking advantage of you. You are paying them for a service. It is the same thing here. To someone who has thousands of gold in the inventory, what you are claiming is a complete joke. Your argument is literally based off an opinion that is based off perspective.

Ohoni.6057:

AreNooo. . . offering people a slot for FREE is doing a favor. Offering to accept payment for the slot is providing a transactional service. Offering to accept payment for something, and fighting to maintain the status quo that makes that service valuable is exploitative.

Again, a matter of perspective and by far not a valid point. The literal definition of service, again, is the action of helping or doing work for someone. If you do not consider this a favor, I do not know what to tell you. The moral of the story here is this is how it is, and no matter how much you discuss it with opinions and speculation, nothing is going to change. We are all clueless. Say what you want and move on. This out-of-context quoting and attempts to negate opposers with speculation and opinions is becoming toxic. We’re looking at over 45 pages of forum space consisting of probably less than 50 users.

Linken.6345:

If noone was demanding the new legendary items / viper trinkets to be locked behind raid we wouldent have the discussion.

I really don’t think anyone is mate. Raiders simply do not want to see what they have worked for handed out for free, and this really isn’t an issue at all tbh.

The main issue is the fact that players do not want to see more focus on raids. Rather, the majority of the community desires new content. I am almost certain there will be other avenues for receiving different sets of legendary armor in the future. This is simply the test run.

Sure, the portion of community that raids is tiny when compared to the portion of community that doesn’t raid, but this isn’t what we are comparing here. We are comparing the portion of the players who do not raid and do not wish to raid yet they want to experience the raid to the rest of the community that desires new content. I am fairly certain from recent activity from the forums over the past few months, that the player-base would much rather have new content than raid modes, and that this number is probably even smaller than the number of raiders.

STIHL.2489:

Added: Especially, when you say you would be satisfied with just a Special Skin, and you are Getting Ascended Gear with Special Skin.. to then demand that you also get Legendary. Come on.. You don’t think that makes you look greedy?

Wait? Who is demanding? How can you even speculate if legendary armor will be permanently limited to a raiding collection? What’s even the point in arguing on this topic when no one has any idea except Anet? Is some sort of elitist raider holding Anet hostage and making demands? I think I feel behind in this “discussion.” Are we greedy… if we raid? Are Anet’s devs sifting through the 50+ pages of “easy-mode raids” paying close attention to the 15 or so who are conversing?

Ohoni.6057:

People who offer to sell raid slots aren’t doing favors, they are exploiting people’s weakness, while fighting to maintain the system in which that exploitation has a place. There is NO justifying it from a moral standpoint.

What??? This is like saying the grocery store is exploiting people’s weakness for selling milk…. People who offer to sell raid slots are doing favors for people who are willing to pay for them. They’re literally not hurting anyone. Are services defined as exploiting the weak?

Edit: Nope it appears to be defined as: “the action of helping or doing work for someone.”

Rednik.3809:

Gw2 raiding doesn’t take a lot of skill either, because its 10% of making right build, learning rotation and mechanically remembering fight patterns and 90% is finding another 9 people who will do the same thing and coordinate with them. So, by your definition raiders should be stripped of their rewards because it takes next to no skill in comparison with raiding games like wow?

This would be a solid argument if you didn’t completely make up the facts that backed your argument. I don’t know about you but my group spends about 5 minutes total making the right “build” which has a massive amount of room to vary, and about 3 hours clearing the six encounters. Also, I wouldn’t say either WoW, or this takes a lot of skill to raid. If you really wanted to compare though I guess I would compare this to heroic level WoW content (If they gave you full best in slot heroic gear immediately, a feat which usually takes MONTHS) as the Mythic stuff is a LOT less forgiving but still extremely easy. Also, by your logic WoW would be about 5% skill and 95% finding the other 19 people for mythic level raiding meaning Mythic would be easier than this completely contradicting your main point.

It’s no one’s fault if you are lowering yourself to pugging. I’ve been playing this expansion for about 6-7 weeks now. It took me literally less than 10 hours to find a solid raiding guild (30 minutes filling out apps, 9 1/2 hours waiting) and another 20-30 to clear the six encounters committing about six hours a week on average (Not including research/gearing/etc.) I know some people here have spent over 200-300 hours arguing about how they don’t have enough time to raid, etc. etc. You only run into issues when PuGs come in with a 1600 toughness tempest and expect things to go right.

Sorry, it’s my opinion that different difficulties in raids simply DO NOT work with horizontal progression. You make a raid easier, and the mechanics will literally be broken. You make a raid more difficult and there needs to be some sort of stat gain in the process, unless you make it possible only under the conditions that your group has achieved perfection. Both of these require extra Dev attention which is NOT what the community wants right now. The community wants NEW content, not more focus on raiding. This thread has turned rather toxic and everything that needs to be said has been said. If any you really want to push the point that raids are not where they should be then I suggest you make a poll and post it on the GW2 subreddit. If it gains enough attention, and you guys are indeed right, then Anet will take notice. I’ll assume the poll will consist of 99% of players being unhappy and 1% (the elitists) being content as some of you claim.

These threads really need to be merged/die.

Ohoni.6057:

But you understand that there are many people who never want to be good at the existing raids, that “git gud” is actually NOT the best outcome for every player, right?

Sure, and what this essentially means is you will not experience the content and you will not reap the rewards. You can apply this line of thought to almost anything in the same sense.

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

Well, debates and discussions usually require one to back up their points. You do make a lot of points though….lots of points….

Nothing stopping you from Googling them (or use Bing if that’s your thing) , the Information is at your fingertips.

So, this is your validation on points you make. Lol, there’s no discussion with you mate. Well. I say hard-core players make up the majority of the community. Go google that. Oh wait, only Anet has these statistics. If you’re going to make blanket-statement claims be ready to back them up. Don’t tell me to do the work when it’s not even there. Fallacies! Fallacies everywhere!!!!! Make these forums great again!!!! The entire community exists within these complaint forums!!!!

DutchRiders.2871:

Personally I avoid full ascended players (unless they are in speed running groups or use expensive stat sets like vipers), cause who in his right mind would think ascended armor is worth it? Usually they use bad rotations and kitten up.

No disrespect, but the logic…just is not here…

Sure, they can buy their Ascended Gear with $$$ and call it skill, but any player can buy an exotic set off of 60 minutes worth of playing. This is why I do not deal with pugs. Ascended Gear != automatic skill. It merely indicates it over a broad spectrum of players. It’s an advantage, however small. There is literally no reason to avoid a full ascended player. There is literally no reason to not set a goal to be in full ascended gear in regards to raiding. (If buying cool transmogs and dyes is your thing have at it outside of raiding)

You naturally accumulate gold from playing this game. I think i’ve put about 1400 hours in and my account worth is around 13,000 gold. (This includes skins and such that I’ve simply unlocked and such but it is still considered gold gained) I don’t farm gold, I don’t go out of my way to do content because the gold gain is high. I just play. With this logic I’ve potentially about 9g/Hour. So, perhaps if you are new to this game with <500 hours then Ascended Armor is far out of your reach, assuming you have the worst RNG in the world and can not get chests to drop for you. (I’ve gotten 8 armor chests and maybe 10 weapon chests.)

If not, I don’t see why your goal wouldn’t be to optimize your character regardless… Unless you don’t play this game?

STIHL.2489:

You could look at it that way, not a smart way to look at it from the Developer/Company Poi, but to be fair, it is a very common gamer view.

Oh, perhaps you know more than Anet’s developing/marketing team?

STIHL.2489:

In the reality of things, from a broader scope, Casuals make up the bulk of the gaming industry, and MMO’s are coming out all the time, just looking to snatch them up.

Do you have evidence regarding this? Are you saying you know more about marketing than this company? Or… Should we just take your word on this subject?

STIHL.2489:

For the Hardcore players, most of them are moving to MOBA’s where the real challenge is, against another player. So, in a game as PvE as GW2, can they afford to alienate their Casuals?

While MOBA’s make up the majority of online gaming this is speculation. This is not a fact. It is not fair to assume that every “hardcore” player wishes to PvP. Perhaps Anet can not afford to alienate their hardcore players since the ALL OTHER CONTENT caters to the casual player. Perhaps Anet is trying to cater to a wider audience to rack in more money as a business. Who knows… Well… I’m sure they know.

STIHL.2489:

I’ve said my bit. Not open for discussion or debate really, my feelings won’t change, and I don’t think yours will either.

Well, debates and discussions usually require one to back up their points. You do make a lot of points though….lots of points….

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not really opposed to it being added to the daily rotation with standard daily rotation bonuses, I’m just not a fan of the idea of restoring the previous gold loot, or equivalent in other materials. I don’t think that’s necessary. It would also be important that it be a 5th PvE activity, rather than replacing one of the existing 4 in the rotation, since there are already too few that are convenient.

Because 1g is too much for 30-60 minutes worth of content? Was 4g too much for p4 in Arah? This is the exact reason dungeons are dead. Now you get like 35 silver for finishing a dungeon. That’s ridiculously low when compared to other aspects of this game. Dungeons weren’t even an efficient way for farming gold. There was no reason to nerf the reward gain. If anything, it’s punishing the new players who take longer. Some paths needed a nerf, but not all paths.

The evidence is pretty clear with the amount of participation in dungeons.

Just look at the definitions. I blatantly disagree that difficult and exclusive are the same thing. Why? You can overcome difficulties. You can’t overcome content you are excluded from.

You may be excluded by the result of not being able to play your class to its maximum potential, but the funny thing about humans is we have the capability to learn. I do not see this as an excuse… At least it’s not on the game… It’s on the player.

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

That doesn’t even make sense. We all know that Harder equates to being Exclusive, as such using the Analogy is correct.

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/harder
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/exclusive

Gotta disagree with you there my friend.

actually
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/difficult may be better for “harder”

Actually forget both of those:
Difficult: needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand.
Exclusive: excluding or not admitting other things.

Similar but different

STIHL.2489:

Avarice.2791:

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy..

Can we please stop this charade that Hard does not mean Exclusive. We all know it does.

Then you gotta stop pushing that analogy homie.

@Blaeys

Sorry, but running 1600 toughness automatically causes your group to fail in some situations. If you think this sort of ignorance is OK… I don’t know what to tell you. Every MMO has an optimal build. It’s simple math. Each fight has a DPS check. You need to make this. You need to pull your weight. If you aren’t interested in this then raiding is simply not for you.

@Blaeys

The only problem with this is rocking 1600 toughness goes directly against the mechanics on a few on the raid bosses such as VG. This means that as a tempest, Ohani will be holding aggro. It’s pretty much raid 101 that whoever has the most toughness on bosses who hold aggro, will receive the aggro.

What this implies is that zero work has gone into researching what the heck is going on in this new crazy content. It’s like hopping in a level 100 fractal with exotic gear. Is that a reasonable request?

Like, if he was wearing condi gear or anything I could understand this, but to get 1600 toughness… this means you’re wearing a random array of stats without an understanding on how it’s impacting your performance.

One thing about raids, which is fundamental to raids, is that there are roles to be filled. People have jobs to do. Bringing in a tempest with 1600 toughness tends to cause problems. Take Gors. You put the tempest in charge of taking care of blue orbs. The tempest has a 50% dps cut in exchange for unneeded survivability. Those orbs are going to overrun the place. Whose fault is that? The game?

Ohoni.6057:

Wouldn’t “making it of similar difficulty to the rest of the game that hundreds of thousands have enjoyed for over three years” be a worthwhile goal?

Honestly, you do not seek to improve your game. I believe optimistically that most players would like to seek ways to become better at what they put time into. By providing a tiers of challenging content a game keeps players interested, rather than that MMO you play every few months then quit. I believe we as humans will always seek a challenge. The fact that you are not doing as well as you’d like with the effort you think you are putting in is leading to you creating this scapegoat of an idea rather than seeking help to improve your play which so many players here would be happy to give! It’s the stubbornness that is leading to your downfall.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly my point. I know that it’s not the build most people would want in a raid, but it’s the build that I’ve got because it’s designed primarily for other content. I want a raid in which that doesn’t matter.

Okay, you’ve been playing MMO’s for… did you say 25 years? You and I know this is not how it works Ohani. You are sacrificing over half of your damage output by wearing soldiers/whatever gear. Even in open world environments I would not advocate that kind of gear. Sure, you’re helping yourself survive, but you’re not learning, and you’re not helping in content as much as other players are.

Now, I understand in most environments this is not a requirement because there are other players to pick up the slack… in fact a large buffer of extra players, but this is not how raids are designed. Anywhere. And this is okay.

Ohoni.6057:

You know what might help me have the right stats for the task though, if I had armor that could change stats on demand. . .

So… what you are saying is you want easy-mode raids for the reward… which I agree a tier of gear should not be gated behind content such as this… So… you and I actually agree on something… No way…? What if I actually agreed with you the whole time but we got into this petty argument simply because you kept saying you want to do it for the mechanics. All you have to admit is that gating a tier of gear behind raiding is absolute garbage and I will back you alllll day.

In the mean time you can farm 15g and get yourself a set of zerker exotic gear. 22k Achievement points. You can do it! If you literally want private help from me I will help you optimize your tempest for raiding. I mean if the gold is too much I will buy you a kitten exotic zerker set. This offer is only for you though, love.

@Blaeys

I’ve been pretty civil to the majority of the players on these threads minus one in particular. Just seemed like you took all my points and redirected them to things I’m not saying/advocating to make me look like an idiot which is why I responded the way I did to you. You have a major misunderstanding on what I am saying :P

I am aware that no one is advocating a change in the current raid difficulty. They are advocating a zerg-like raid with reduced mechanics and I’m going over why I think this is a bad use of dev time and not a good idea.

@Blaeys

Every one of your responses in your initial post sounded like an attack on me. You misunderstood pretty much every point I’ve raised thus far and put words in my mouth that I never said. You then raised a lot of points without backing them up with logic.

Your second post is a lot more constructive and I agree with the majority of it so I don’t sense there needs to be a response to what you said as we are for the most part agreeing. I’m simply just not sure how much more you can nerf certain content without destroying the fight and making it no different than the rest of the game. Let’s take VG. You can already survive if you miss a green circle. You can survive even with some bad breakbars and tank placement. If you nerf that further what do you even have? Just my two cents and my main argument for why raid should be forward progression and not retract backwards. Easy content is short lived.

@Ohani

Ohoni.6057:

I got surprised reactions when my Tempest had 1600 Toughness (and that wasn’t even wearing her defensive skirt). But as I’ve said, I do not WANT advice on how better to get through the raids in their current form, that is not a goal I have.

I don’t know what I can say here without getting banned from the forums. You just made every person who has half an idea how raiding works literally cringe. Tempest is a berserker class. All berserker. Start there. Get yourself some runes of the scholar and some proper food/utilities. Read a couple guides. Bam. You’re raid ready. Or keep this up. It’s your life mane.

Shooting myself in the foot here, but here we go. Also, as a side note I would of loved to see your efficiency to see how you gear and spec so I could offer advice, or tell you you’re all gooood. Just my two cents. I’m not going to take your word on how many achievement points you have. Sorry big guy you have enough back-and-forth in your posts as it is where I’m not sure what your word is worth.

Ohoni.6057:

Agree to disagree and move on until an actual developer provides more accurate information?

What are you talking about? It’s pretty obvious the work that would be brought forward with integrating a whole seperate difficulty. You don’t have to work for Anet to know this one.

Ohoni.6057:

I took the time to explain how I believe it should work and why I believe it would be beneficial. You’re free to disagree, but you should have no good reason to remain confused as to what I’m asking for or why.

Yes, then I told you why it wouldn’t work and you essentially said no. You’re asking for a raid where mechanics don’t wipe you meaning mechanics will be bypassed and this will be another dungeon-mode zerg-fest where players sit in the corner, outheal mechanics, and cleave a boss down. In reality you want this for the rewards… at least at first this was what you wanted until you went all noble to push a point.

Ohoni.6057:

I never once asked for help in how to better complete the existing raids. My position has consistently been that what the current raids are selling, I ain’t buying. I like the basic premise of them, but I will never enjoy the sort of “grind at it until you beat it” content model. I do not play Dark Souls, and never want to play Dark Souls.

You don’t need to ask for help to see that you clearly are asking for help. Did you not post in a thread called “Raid teaching runs: Proving accessibility?” I think that is the literal definition of asking for help. If you don’t want to raid. Then don’t raid. What do I think? I think you want to raid. I think you are tired of failing. I think if you cleared the raid once you would completely flop on your views.

Ohoni.6057:

That was a completely different topic, there is no reason to conflate the two.

No, it relates because you are literally asking for a nerfed version so you can complete the content. You have two options. Do the work or pay people to do it for you. This relates to the thread where you told a guy to pay 50s to each player to help him because the dungeon system lacks incentive and therefore lacks players. I could easily argue that you can pay a guild to help you out with the content.

Ohoni.6057:

What is the problem with a player running around with a mini that he likes? I mean, minis aren’t the top of my priority list, I have more than enough minis, but if someone really wants a slubling mini or something, why is that something that should be kept out of his reach?

He didn’t earn it the same way others did? You could say the mini was catered to him.

Ohoni.6057:

I continue to assert that easy mode raids should not take a significant amount of development time to produce, and that if it does, it should come fro outside the core raid team. If it does slow the development of anything, it should be from long-term projects that aren’t even on our radar yet, so we’d never even notice that it happened.

You make a lot of claims without backing them up. Do you still not realize how fast easy-mode raids would die?

Ohoni.6057:

That’s an insult to the playerbase. “Rather than giving you guys what you genuinely need to enjoy this game, we’d rather double down on the few people that are currently satisfied with the content, by making something that only an even tinier niche of them could enjoy.” And not only that, but it would certainly take MORE time and effort to produce, since it would need to have much tighter tolerances than the current raid, while an easy mode would be looser, meaning it likely would need to use the core raid team to produce, and spend a lot more time balance testing.

No, this is an insult to you and the few who refuse to raid. Why would it take more effort to produce? By your logic all it would take is some copy and pasting and tweaking in variables. You have no idea what the population is for/against raiding. This entire paragraph is full of fallacies. It’s crazy.

Ohoni.6057:

But it’s not that they can’t do better, it’s that they chose not to. If they wanted the rewards to be balanced for those options then they easily could change them to be.

It’s cute that you think players will not bypass mechanics. Take a look at LFR in WoW, seriously. Just do it.

Ohoni.6057:

Taking lessons from other games is difficult though, because there is built-in power creep to those games. A player who can’t complete Raid A when it releases might come back an expansion or two down the road, gain ten levels over the previous cap, gain junk drops off the mobs in the new area, come back and solo the raid. We don’t expect that to happen here.

Again, I am not talking about a built-in power creep. I am talking about the fact that experienced pugs are generally more successful with experienced pugs. This figure multiplies over time. Like, I’m literally not talking about a power creep at all.

Ohoni.6057:

It wouldn’t be the type of raiding you enjoy, and it wouldn’t be fun for you, this much I can agree with. Whether it would be fun for other players is entirely out of your hands. You would still get to do the hard mode raid you prefer, this would just be a new option for those who do NOT have fun playing the sort of raiding you enjoy.

Can you not see what I am saying. No rewards + Non-challenging content = short content life. Challenge + Reward = Longevity. You’re simply asking for a level of content that is already available in the game… EVERYWHERE because this particular piece of content does not cater to YOU.

Ohoni.6057:

This is a silly argument to make. If it were true, then raiders would just play the raid until they actually succeeded, and then stop, in which case it’s a pointless form of content. People were still running dungeons daily for years after most had completed them easily. So long as there are still rewards to be earned via raiding, I see no reason why players would not run easy mode raids at least once a week (or hard if they could manage it). The “challenge” isn’t really a factor, so long as it’s fun and rewarding.

Dude…. they do lmao. For example, my group raids 3 times a week until we clear the content. Then we drop down from 9 hours to about 2 hours a week. Why do we continue? Because the reward is there. What I don’t want is an easy-mode that offers rewards even close to on par with normal-mode. You’ve even advocated this yourself. Therefore in your head it is a mode that offers little rewards. Why would players continue? Mechanics weren’t necessary. They aren’t any more prepared for normal-mode. Now all you have is another glorified dungeon.

The reason people continued to run content is because the reward was there.

Astralporing.1957:

You are joking, right? Raids, by their very design, are meant to be a content for small minority. A content that is exclusive because the people it was made for want it to be so. You can see the examples in this very thread, where several times it was mentioned that raids would be devalued if everyone could be running them.

No… I’m not joking. You are literally not gated off from completing raid content. There is a difference between finding raiding too difficult and being completely gated off from it. I mean… completely missed the point there lol

Astralporing.1957:

Indeed. But on the other side the demand is for the “difficulty bar” (be it skill, gear, time or organization based" to be so high that in practice most people would never clear it. Raiders say that “everyone can do it” and that they invite everyone, but they don’t really mean it and they don’t really want it. Their Raids would lose that prized exclusivity and prestige otherwise.

I do stand by “everyone can do it” but I also believe some people are not capable of reaching this point due to a lack of effort and commitment. Like you said… raiding is not for everyone and this is okay. Demanding the content should be catered towards you is wrong in my eyes. Also, I never claimed I invite everyone. I raid with a team. That’s not on me.

Astralporing.1957:

There’s nothing i am gated from in this game… except raiding. HoT maps aren’t that good in that regard too, that’s true, but then, they are going to get fixed soon, according to what Anet said last AMA.

I absolutely love the HoT maps and I believe they went above and beyond what my expectations were from GW1. This has nothing to do with anything. Oh… you’re talking about the mechanics of the HoT maps… Why are you talking about that? How does “There is nothing I am gated from except raiding” lead to that? lol… Why are you gated from raiding?

Astralporing.1957:

I beg to differ. I’m complaining against raiding because i have that experience. Many other players dislike raids for the same reason – because they know them all too well.

I don’t really know what this means? So you have the potential to raid, but you know them too well so you are gated by raiding?

Ohoni.6057:

Whether you succeed or not, has nothing to do with the raids accessibility

Lol, no.

Best discussion point ever.

Blaeys.3102:

I have to hop in on this one. The reason this happens in other games is that gear eventually passes the content, creating the less intensive experience more casual raiders are looking for. That will never (and should never) happen since there is no gear treadmill in GW2.

Actually, I’m not talking about that… literally… at all. That is obvious. What I am talking about is general community progression on current content. It happens and it is noticeable especially in pugs. Why does this happen? More and more people down the content putting in practice and reaching the level of skill required.

Blaeys.3102:

And, yes, the raids in GW2 aren’t necessarily as difficult as weve seen in other games (Ive been raiding for 9 years across multiple MMOs now), but the idea that they are designed for players with diverse skill levels and interest is not only incorrect, it has been contradicted by the developers themselves.

No one is saying that raids are designed for players with diverse skill levels. Raids have a learning curve which requires a certain level of “skill” to succeed.

Blaeys.3102:

There are valid discussion points against including a more casual raid level (developer time, reward disparity, etc). “It’s actually easy, so learn to play,” or “the content will eventually be easy for everyone” are not among them.

What now? Valid discussion points FOR “LFR” style raids? Are you saying there were was an official discussion thread somewhere? Do you really believe as a community we are not progressing against the content that raiding brings?…? I don’t think I ever said “It’s actually easy so learn to play.” You’re putting words in my mouth. I highly disagree with you disagreeing that content will eventually be easy for everyone as I’ve explained above and numerous times. If you really don’t think the community progresses on content you need to open your eyes.

Blaeys.3102:

I raid – I even enjoy raiding sometimes – but, as the guild leader for a guild with more than 100 active members with greatly varying levels of skill and playstyles, I see a need for a deeper, more inclusive raiding model in this game.

Congratulations on the guild. Let’s hear your ideas?

Complaining != helpful
Suggestions == helpful

You’re simply leading on a toxic conversation that could continue for 100’s of posts. If you add in suggestions or support your opinions then this has the potential to lead to discussion.

Thaddeus.4891:

But that’s only a matter of opinion. My guild have about 500 players in it. 50% of those would tell you that raid are super hard in GW2 and only 5% would tell you that raid are normal.

Listen, I’m just saying that there is no such thing as “hard-mode.” Raiding in its current state is normal raiding. There is no differentiation on difficulties. This really isn’t even a point that is worth arguing over due to the fact that I’m not talking about personal preferences on the difficulty of raids. I’m simply saying SV/SP is normal-mode raiding.

The general community is not ready for a hard-mode raid let alone normal raiding, but perhaps a year down the road they will be.

Also, speculating how many players are raiders or how many Dev’s are working on raids really isn’t worth it due to the fact that it is all speculation.

Obtena.7952:

Avarice.2791:

Cyninja – I mean ascended armor does provide a stat boost however small. Saying it isn’t worth it is a matter of perspective, but mathematically wrong…

Actually if you look at the cost to stats ratio of Exotic and Ascended gear, I think it’s not mathematically wrong at all. In fact, it’s even more evident that Ascended gear is not really worth the cost. It’s a luxury and luxuries are only ‘worth it’ if the cost doesn’t mean much to you.

Sure, but I view 600g +- chests as worth it for the gain in stats as many players do. It’s all perspective and really not up to the player to dictate what groups require. What you are arguing has been discussed above. What I was saying is the gain in stats with always be mathematically beneficial for a group that is progressing.

@STIHL

It’s merely the fact that hard != excluded therefore your analogy is a fallacy. “Casuals” that are excluded from raiding at this moment will eventually either become better by doing the work that comes with raiding, or decide that they do not wish to become better at the hobby they are putting time into. (Although, hopefully this should happen anyways.) There will be a point where the difficulty of a boss, and the learning curve of the community will meet as time goes on. This means that eventually the majority will be clearing this content. This happens with raiding in EVERY MMO.

Elitists are not calling for keeping raids “hard.” Raids in this game are “normal.” There are no “hard” raids. This is something you defined where as the current raid content is merely “normal” due to the fact that there are no other difficulty modes.

I’m not trying to belittle you or say anything really. I’m just discussing your thought process.

I do indeed understand that the gain on ascended gear was nerfed into the ground due to an outcry by the “casuals.” I agree with you that perhaps in every value except for simple math, ascended gear really holds no advantage over exotic gear… or to say the difference is almost unnoticed.

Sarcastically speaking, Karma is going to come at you fast with a 1% wipe :P

I have a 600 second timer on my posts so I’ll reply to your second one below which I don’t have much to say because we’re at an agreement :P

Ascended Armor is definitely the last thing to do when it comes to optimizing your character. Trinkets take a matter of weeks. Ascended Armor takes either RNG, Gold, or time which is pretty much gold. Although difficult to get, most players have either a partial or complete set of ascended armor. The other good news as for raiding is that you will usually only need 1, maybe 2 sets of ascended gear since others have done the optimization work for us on metabattle meaning that there is no reason to get 3-4 sets of armor specifically for raiding.

Cyninja, I do agree this debate is extremely small (A .2-.3% increase in group damage is laughable, yes.) I’m simply saying that there is no reason to not optimize your character. Stating “it’s not worth it” is just something I disagree with. Obviously both opinions, but the way you stated it warranted at least a response in my eyes. No disrespect.

In regards to the OP, I’m simply giving a few scenarios as to why Ascended Loot may be preferred, not to mention most guilds you apply for require you to be in full ascended armor.

I can agree…somewhat… but with that mentality is exotic gear even worth it to the player who believes 10g is too much? It’s only a 2-3% gain. (Idunno maybe more or less)

What I’m confused about here, is how much stats are too much? Why would you not make it your goal to get the best possible gear? Is common gear even worth it to the group who can 7 man content?

In relation to the OP’s question, what I mainly have to say is why would anyone invest in a suit for a job interview when I can sag my jeans and wear chains? I once knew this guy who got a job with sagged jeans and chains.

Absurdo.8309:

This is a false analogy. Anyone can participate in a raid.

Thissss. The main barrier between those who refuse to raid and those who raid is the work they are willing to put into it. The refusal to wipe on a boss until the kinks are worked out is not a game-side problem. It is merely a problem of the player with a toxic mentality. It is not Anet’s issue that players do not wish to play/optimize their role’s. Use a bit of outside resources where people DID THE WORK FOR US. “But… but I wanna bearbow!!!!!”

The good news is that soon players will become more accustomed to raids allowing for casual players as a described above to slip through and get carried through content eliminating the need to wipe.

To be clear STIHL, this is not directed to you, or anyone on these forums.

STIHL.2489:

Actually, by maintaining that it should be hard (IE: Exclusive) that is exactly what you are saying. Using different words does not change the message.

Hard and exclusive are not the same thing. If you don’t believe that statement look up a synonym dictionary :P

With time and practice comes an increase in skill (Hopefully) and what is hard now to the casual, may be easier later on in this game’s life. Do you have any thoughts on the rest of my reply?

STIHL.2489:

And there is no “End-All-Content” there is always next patch, next update, next expansion.

Absolutely, but respectfully, what content will be more progressive than raiding when it comes to PvE? In most games the “end-all-content” is raiding in PvE, despite stretching over time or expansions. That’s the point I’m trying to raise when I state that.

STIHL.2489:

Also for the record, I have played MMO’s for a long time, I have raided, and I’ll be honest, the Raid in this game, no offence to the dev team, I am sure they put in a lot of work and effort, but was as uninspired as they come, a painfully distilled generic Tank&Spank in the purest form, with quite literally.. Nothing else to it.

Absolutely, I have no doubt that you are an experienced and seasoned MMO veteran. Respectfully, I disagree with your opinion on the state of GW2 raids. It’s not tank&spank in the purest form. Why? Less than half the bosses actually require a tank to start. When you say nothing else to it, what about the mechanics? The mechanics are vital in SP and SV. They created a new holy trinity that differs from tank/dps/healer which I define as support/condi/power. Support being the players who buff/heal/breakbar/etc. You could argue that they are similar, but don’t break the system that has been at work for over 15 years is what I say.

I can understand you personally disliking raids, but this is an opinion and not a basis for an argument.

@STIHL

Here’s my issue with this. You’re creating content that FORCES you to be excluded from one or the other in your scenario. This is not the case with raiding in this game. No one is telling “casuals” that they can not raid. It simply demands a bit of extra work as this is the true, end-game, end-all content.

There are two things that people fail to recognize:

1.) Raids will become easier over time. Why? The population will become more accustomed to the encounters providing higher success rates. This happens naturally with any raid in any MMO. This will be multiplied once LFG has a fixed raid tab.

2.) Raids require practice and work. Raiding simply would not be raiding if it was a zerg-fest insta-win scenario. This wouldn’t be fun. Let me expand on this. It would be fun the first few times around… but how long are you going to continue with this? There is plenty of content in this game that will prep you for raiding.

You can argue that it would include others and be the martyr who claims they will not use work-arounds to mechanics… but this simply is not true. You can see this in WoW with “LFR.” An easy-mode zerg-fest raid would not have replay-ability after so many attempts. It’s simple. Challenge = longitivtiy when it comes to content. Especially end-game content. What’s after raiding? Nothing.

Now, you may ask: Why not just create a “LFR?” Well, while I’m not entirely against this, I am against Anet using their precious resources on content that has zero replay-ability. If the rewards are nerfed compared to normal-mode raiding, then it will simply not attract players for repeated encounters. I would much rather see raiding go in the opposite direction where it becomes progressively more challenging, rather than less.

I respect what you are saying, but I do not believe raids are gated behind anyone except for those with a time gate. (They can’t afford to play more than 1-2 hours at a time.) IF this is the case though then these players will be gated from a lot more than just raiding. I get the feeling, a lot of players who are complaining about being excluded from raiding are simply inexperienced to either this game, or MMO’s in general. They bought this game, did the main story, ran a few events, and said “WELP, it’s time to get into the most hard-core content this game has to offer!”

Well, you get about 10+ rares from DS equating in probably about 15 ectos which can be sold for 4.5 gold there… I usually yield quite a bit more I’m just going for the minimal attempt here.

You yield about 30 champ bags/loot bags/whatever bags which bring even more loot and mats. I mean, what I said was really an understatement. Perhaps you are making more than you realize, or not selling mats at their maximum potential. Are you opening pods afterwards? Are you participating in all the events? Do you loot everything/advanced logistics? Sorry, but if you’re making 3-4g per DS run you are most certainly doing something wrong :P

Is there anyway you could roleplay around this? I’m not sure there’s enough attention on this matter to actually promote a change.

Yeah sorry, haven’t tried revenant yet. What I do know is they are mainly a support class keeping up with boons. Could be wrong there as well I guess lol

Indigo, what I am saying is it is a matter of perspective depending on what gold is worth to you, and how much time you have.

He is saying ascended armor is not worth it due to the fact that it inconveniences him gold wise. This is his perspective, and mathematically wrong, yet he states it like a fact. “Let’s clear up some misconceptions.”

That’s all I’m saying. This may be obvious to you, but I believe my point is sound where an advantage is an advantage, and those working on progression love advantages.

You have two people asking about the last spot in your raid. Both the same roles. One states he is all ascended with exotic gear. One states he is full ascended. You have no idea who is better, they each have the same experience. Who are you most likely to bring?

Two people show up for a job interview. Both have the same qualifications. One is dressed appropriately, one is dressed inappropriately. Who do you hire?

Meta events will give you nowhere near 15g/hour. I think what makes them more worthwhile is the HoT exp and chieves which are not an endless source of entertainment, but hard to obtain from other aspects of this game.

That is… Unless you are rnjesus and get a solid drop or even a precursor… But from personal experience I’ll make around 5-10g from DS and maybe 3-6g from AB. These numbers are made up approximations from personal experiences… But my two cents.

I… Have no idea tbh. What class are you looking to play? What sort of roles? Support/condi/zerker?

Cyninja – I mean ascended armor does provide a stat boost however small. Saying it isn’t worth it is a matter of perspective, but mathematically wrong…

Couldn’t of said it better Absurdo.

Blaeys.3102:

How about we take one argument from each side and focus on the points and counterpoints of those arguments.

For example:

- Some in the hardcore raider community feel that offering lower difficulty levels would take away from the overall raiding experience – either by lowering the prestige associated with the game mode or by encouraging the developers to move away from difficult content – something many really want.

- Some in the more casual community feel that the addition of layered difficulties would actually be healthy for raiding in the long run, because more raiders/players enjoying the content would potentially give Anet a reason to focus more resources on that game mode.

Let’s hear the pros and cons – and maybe focus on specific talking points that advocate one approach or the other. It may not have an impact on the direction of the game, but it will allow us as players to more clearly express how we feel about this topic.

As someone who has successfully cleared content I will start by saying that I would have to be extremely selfish to feel that an easy-mode would take away from raids. That would be like saying I feel like level 25 fractals take away from level 100 fractals.

What I do not want is for rewards to be tied between both modes (If a LFR type mode ever existed) I do not want achievements to be shared. I do not want to see some guy who zerged down VG running around with a mini. I don’t want to see players making more than 1/10th of the shards if they put in 1/10th of the time.

On top of this. I would prefer it if raids did not backwards progress from where they are now. I do not wish to see an easier-mode simply on the basis that it would delay everything else in this game. What I would rather see is a more difficult mode if the Devs had the time on their hands. This would keep raiders interested and the current normal mode would train players in for the more difficult mode. There would be actual worlds first competitions with extremely hard-core guilds who gain world recognition. Or… you can make a mode with zero replay-ability for the players who do not wish to raid… yet have not reached many aspects in this game besides raiding.

Let’s be real. Anyone coming from WoW. How much of a benefit was LFR to you when your goal was getting to a more difficult game-mode. What this was, was the in-between of dungeon and normal mode gear. It had little replay-ability unless you were going for a specific reward, which then you did not value the content. It taught nothing when it came to mechanics. Mechanics were “forgiving” meaning they were ignored.

@Bloody

GW2 did not copy the trinity of tanks/healers/dps. Most fights do not require a tank. Most fights do not require a healer. What you have is support/condi/power dps. Completely abstract from what raids typically are in other games. It’s hard to redesign something that has been perfected over 15 years. I believe Anet did a fantastic job.

Thaddeus.4891:

Avarice.2791:

I feel like the points I make are sound, then he turns it around into something that is completely irrelevant every time. After awhile it gets to be too much then in comes then temp ban! I’ve literally gotten 3-4 infraction points off this guy. I simply can not continue in this toxic conversation where none of my points are even being addressed otherwise I will face a perma-ban. I’ve had people whispering me in-game thanking me for saying what I am saying.

You don’t need to respond to the guy that make stupid argument. It sad, because he make all the people that ask for an easy mode look bad.

It’s not necessarily that I’m responding to the subject, but him. It seems like 90% of this “LFR” movement is coming from this guy. I mean he literally caused the merger of all threads. What makes me sad is it sounds like he is having trouble completing content so I was at first, offering advice on how to better himself and what worked for me. He ignored this stating he has no interest in that or raiding. He then goes to another thread where and individual is having trouble finding dungeon groups and actually has the tenacity to state “Why don’t you just pay people 50 silver (Or something) to run you through dungeons.” This made me mad. For me this is personal. I have no issue with a LFR format raid besides the fact that it would push back all other content (I’d rather see a hard-mode raid tbh). I think Legendary armor should not be walled off by raiding. I do not think people who do not wish to raid should reap the rewards from raiding. (Non-Tier Gear rewards.)

Also, I challenge you to find one crazy thing that I have stated. Not belittling… Just outright wrong.

I feel like the points I make are sound, then he turns it around into something that is completely irrelevant every time. After awhile it gets to be too much then in comes then temp ban! I’ve literally gotten 3-4 infraction points off this guy. I simply can not continue in this toxic conversation where none of my points are even being addressed otherwise I will face a perma-ban. I’ve had people whispering me in-game thanking me for saying what I am saying.

Literally, the only thing I wish to see at this point is his gw2 efficiency, so I can see how far he progressed in this game via achievements.

Example: I will state Dev resources are limited. He will reply it’s just a bit of copying and pasting code. A few hours work.

Like… What do you say to that.

The logic is that he wants it for the mechanics… Yet he wants to mechanics to be irrelevant. How does this even make sense. How would groups not exploit this. Does anyone coming from WoW really believe that LFR taught you how to be a good raider?

Ohoni.6057:

If you don’t understand what I am ankitten ot asking for my this point then I doubt I can help you.

Help me?? Lolllll. I think you are the only one who needs help big guy. I’m doing juuuuuuust fine.

Ohoni.6057:

So you would consider the current raids to be “about average” in difficulty compared to other content in GW2?

I would consider the current raids about average when comparing to the current raids. I mean… everything you say literally makes no sense. Why would I compare raiding to open world and call it hardcore based off that. I swear man, you type without a clue regarding content.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I have zero interest in “applying myself” to raids in their current form, it is not an activity that I would ever enjoy, no matter how much I “applied myself” to it. “Applying myself” to it would make my life measurably worse, not better, so I don’t see why you keep insisting that I should, despite my protestations.

SO DONT RAID. I’m done man. Literally done. Enjoying your continuation of trolling these forums. Seriously. You’re not making an impact. You’re annoying people. Your idea is short sighted. You points are all fallacies. I can’t…

Ohoni.6057:

It’s a circular conversation that will never end until you come to the realization that maybe people want different things than you do, and that maybe they are not wrong for wanting the things they want.

Indeed, and I’ve been explaining…over…and over…and over… and over… why your idea WILL NOT WORK with dozens of points and each time you reply with fallacies which require me to repeat myself.

@Sarrs

This mode where you can play “pretend” with mechanics is called the rest of the game. I would be willing to bet Ohani has explored little of this. If he wishes to challenge this assumption he can post his gw2efficiency link. Not reply with an additional fallacy/troll.

https://gw2efficiency.com/