Guild Wars 2

When roaming/small group in wvw and solo pve i will play this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnf7dnsADNDhNCDmDBkCjF/BbviuRDpZJhKUGyKAUBqTA-j1hAQBQSJ4i0PUgHAgDV/BAHBAxo8jQ7PQKAe2pB-w

Still wont trait tomes but will go for some more damage with ashes and judges intervention and purging flames.

Not sure with the elite and heal but will start with the mantras.

This is what i have in mind atm as a wvw support build. 100% uptime on regen, quickness, swiftness and 8 aegis applications.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAnd7ensADFBjlCBOCDkCjlKCb/c2OrnZjnzz6BbAEAiAA-jliAQBA4IAEI9DCV5h/2fohqV0JVVGpSMIpEsDnEgC8AAIFgfzsA-w

I will not trait tomes at all if they are kept as they were in beta, that you couldnt swap between them.

If the mantras are kept as in in beta i will remove a couple of them and add in shouts instead since they are bad support tools in the current iteration.

I observed the same thing as Arcaedus as well but didnt reflect upon it since i assumed cd was calculated from when you entered the tome.

I realise now that what i saw was probably a bug.

The loremaster trait do not reduce cd on the tomes, just the skills in the tomes.

The trait in virtues reduce cd on both tomes and virtues but not the skills in the tomes.

Lets assume they keep passive as is in FB then they definitely need to lower damage direct damage on the axe (needs to be done in any scenario) since it is now higher compared with sword, as an example.

They should also remove the burns from the chain and add in a non damaging condition.

Even with these two changes it would be the best weapon condi damage wise and if they dont lower direct damage it will also be the best one for direct damage..

Im an not so worried about the axe clumsiness even though casting time on the symbol needs to be adressed. Quickness isnt a rare commodity.

Thanks for he help.

I assume you get Fire Orchids from it daily but how many can you farm each day?

Thanks.

nuaa.4962:

You comparing weapons in a vacum and putting the blame on firebrand and axe. But when you look at whole kitten picture, this is not a firebrand problem, but a core guardain problem, that people been complainig about since release.
Why does core guardian lack a condi weapon?
Why is core guardian movement so slow?
Why is core guardian range options so lackluster?

Nah you can´t judge damage from options we had in beta testing. Nobody perfects their rotation that fast when new stuff to test and some of it is even bugged.

I did say sorry, and just said that how you comment felt to me. They still had that “the sky is falling” feeling. Also the higher they put ToJ damage, the more Permeating Wrath and Loremaster becomes must have, which then just lowered build option big time. While HoJ with weaker burns means losing passive isn´t a huge dps lose, so if you know now go for quickfire instead and virtues trait line is no longer a must have either.

I think quickness doubles attack speed and axe skill 1 highest amount hits we got without cooldown(6 hits per attack chain). 2,5s for full chain, though can´t seem to find this info again. So that 1,25sec with quickness that 8 attack chains. So 48 hits, 48/3 = 16 HoJ procs. so 16sec of burn
Sword would be 40hits, 40/3 = 13,33. That would be 26,66s of burn
Quickfire is 2 burns every 10 sec on 5 people. thats 10 burns of 3sec. So 30 sec of burn
EDIT: better add i was comparing damage output over 10sec, since thats cooldown for quickfire.

Hmmm just dawned on my quickfire might actually be stronger then both HoJ and VoJ in group settings. Hmm dropping virtues and going zeal for quickness dps build sound tempting now.

I totally agree its a issue since launch but if they dont solve the issue they need to account for that issue when designing. They havent done that and there is a simple patch they could make. Buff the passive and place bleeds on the axe on all three hits.
It wont cure the desease but it will fix the current issue.

Of course we can judge damage from beta. Its three skills on each weapon, its not that hard to test and that is exactly what i did. I did minute long test runs with parser and i can tell you that there is a huge difference between sword and axe and even more so compared to scepter.

Apology accepted.

Yes they cant buff VoJ to much but 0,5 sec would be a first step. 2s woudl be reacable with 33% condi duration. The question here is how much is enough compared to Quickfire. As it is now those two isnt balanced. And as you say if they buff to much axe becomes obsolete and i dont want that either. But as it is now i will run with one axe and two off hands in pve.

I think the chain on axe is 1,75 seconds. Proccing 2 stacks of burns each full auto. Those burns in them self is 100% stronger than traited passive VoJ. It is 6 hits so with two passive voj per chain. That is 2,29 VoJ sized burns per second auto attacking.

If i got the math right the axe chain alone deals 2 VoJ and 2 stacks of burning per cast, 1,71 VoJ sized burns per second.
The symbol is 1,67 burns per cast and a casting of 1,25s (also some bleeds but lets not count them) so 0,21 VoJ per second. If you want to to max burning leave the symbol out f it.
Skill 3 corresponds to 4,33 VoJ proccs (4 second burn from the skill and 0,33 VoJ from the single hit) with 0.75 casting which is 5,77 VoJ sized burns per second, the cd is 12s so it adds the difference between the auto (2,29) and #3 (5,77) so roughly 4 stacks in 12 seconds, 0,29. This means that axe with auto alone and #3 applies 2,48 VoJ sized burns per second.

The chain on sword is 1,5 s if i remember correct, with kittens.
The symbol is instant with kittens, 8s cd.
Zealots defense is 0,5 and 8 hits, 12s cd.
That is 1,67 voj per chain or 1,11 VoJ per second .
That is 1,67 voj per symbol or 0,21 VoJ per second.
That is 2,67 voj per ZD.

The chain and symbol deals 1,32 VoJ per second. Symbol being instant (its not due to aftercast but lets make it simple) and ZD has 1/3 of casting time of the chain so we subtract 1/3 of the VoJ proccs from ZD, 2,67-0,56=2,11 divided in cd (12).
ZD adds 0,18 VoJ per second.

1,5 VoJ sized burning per second on sword
2,48 VoJ sized burning per second on axe

The math for scepter is even worse and the rest is just pure garbage.

Add in that axe has much higher direct damage as well and also bleeds on auto and on symbol that i haven included and i havent included the after cast on the sword symbol.

The difference is huge
Removing burns from axe and add in bleeds would pretty much still give us a condi weapon (axe would still be superior) and still usable secondary options.

nuaa.4962:

Brutaly.6257:

The burst specc is speccing tomes, the sustained specc is speccing quickness and melee. In melee setups there are two weapon sets.

Sure it could be on purpose but seriously what is the purpose of having one build that has lower dps, worse utility, lower survivability and has a much higher skill cap?

Please refrain from making stuff personal, like me being negative, it just removes credibility. If we dont express our opinions now nothing will change, its before release we can change stuff, Anet has a very distinct track record that they dont change stuff in any major fashion after release, just numbers and not features. I think Fb is a great design and has also stated that but some stuff is just messed up and i think we need to state that. The fact is that no other weapon has a place in a condi FB-build.

The fact is that all other weapon sets has 50% lower condition damage but if you find that balanced (i dont) its fine and if you find ToJ-builds being balanced with melee builds that is fine and i can only say that we have very different perspectives on balance.

Again you comparing damage of spec we have no idea how good the overall the dps will be, since it is still being changed. And you been so focused on you favorit weapon being nerfed becuase of ToJ change that you not looking at other stuff much.

Fair enough, the “negative” was maybe a bit over the line. But honestly thats how you comments sounded to me.

But here is the thing, yet again. I am not looking at each weapons damage by itself, i am looking at overall damage.

Also ToJ being low duration actually opens for MORE build options. Now it isn´t so powerfull, using tome and losing passive isn´t as bad as it was before.

I am comparing weapons and their validity, the vanilla and DH weapons has no place in FB. It was you that brought in speccs stating that bursting required lower dps between burst (the definition of a burst) and i wrote that the burst specc is ToJ not the melee setup.

And ofc i can see what builds will provide dps and what type of builds that will top the damage. Seriously we played this elite for 10 hours and the game for 5 years, it is not rocket science.

Please stop making assumptions regarding my agenda when trying to diminish arguments, you have no idea what so ever what my favorite weapon is and i can assure you that neither sword or scepter is favorites of mine. My concern is that FB is a one trick pony in melee condi builds and that VoJ nerf reduced diversity.

You cant look at top overall damage in an elite and apply that to other in the same elite build options. Sure a ToJ build has great damage, test a melee/quickness build and see how utterly bad the other weapons are for damage in condi builds In order to keep damaging at such a level that there is a positive tradeoff in survivbility, range and utility the has to be a second set that works reasonably well. The reason i use sword/scepter in my arguments is because those are the best ones at applying burns due to attack speed. Its even worse for the other weapons we have.

Tomes isnt the only thing FB is since mantras are frontal melee support and hence the elite has to be judged based on the different options it provides.

Loosing damage in a large segment of the weapon sets is the exact same as loosing options if you not make all other options meet the baseline. Stating that nerfing VoJ in the manor is great for diversity is just beyond my understanding, if they did it across the board i would agree with you, but they didnt. So stating that the current nef increase diversity is just weird, it pidgeonholes us into less options since no other weapon except axe i valid hence forcing us to play Tome of Cheese.

Thats why i think removing burn from the axe would be good. Removing burn from axe would make it more balanced with sword/scepter (and all other weapons we have) and that would provide more build options. Maknig one weapon stronger and the rest weaker does not improve the number of build options.

Tome of justice deserves a really tough nerf (yeah i said it) since its brainless and without effort and the weird part is that people dont get more upset about VoJ and the nerf but i am certain that when (not if) Anet hits ToJ with the nerf hammer people will realize how big the VoJ nerf really is.

Aeolus.3615:

if i recall loremaster trait stacked with virtues CD reducer, not sure..

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loremaster

No, virtues reduce cd on tomes and lore master reduce cd on skills in tomes.

nuaa.4962:

Brutaly.6257:

Btw i noticed the axe and almost any clip with FB has an axe in it which is more on point tbh.

Ok, you can be that …….

Ofc they do, it was a beta test, axe is new, main weapon for FB and has alot of condi on it. Most people are going to focus they testing on axe, becuase all old weapon are the same as before, and even a bit weaker becuase ToJ passive…..

My point is that i done like 200 test runs on almost anything living in PoF and dead in the mist and having any other weapon believing you should do balanced damage is just wrong. The difference is huge, not “a bit” as you put it.

Old tomes were gimmicks imho.

New one are better but needs tweaking in numbers, design wise they are good.

nuaa.4962:

When you make a spec with high burst that spec often also ends with an time where it goes into low damage mode, to balance out the dps. So having 2nd weapon set being a bit lower on condi damage could be on purpose.

The burst specc is speccing tomes, the sustained specc is speccing quickness and melee. In melee setups there are two weapon sets.

Sure it could be on purpose but seriously what is the purpose of having one build that has lower dps, worse utility, lower survivability and has a much higher skill cap?

Please refrain from making stuff personal, like me being negative, it just removes credibility. If we dont express our opinions now nothing will change, its before release we can change stuff, Anet has a very distinct track record that they dont change stuff in any major fashion after release, just numbers and not features. I think Fb is a great design and has also stated that but some stuff is just messed up and i think we need to state that. The fact is that no other weapon has a place in a condi FB-build.

The fact is that all other weapon sets has 50% lower condition damage but if you find that balanced (i dont) its fine and if you find ToJ-builds being balanced with melee builds that is fine and i can only say that we have very different perspectives on balance.

Except that clip has nothing to do with the subject. No one is arguing about ToJ, judges intervention, SoJ and the 3 stacks of burning Mantra of (F)lame can apply on stationary objects.

Its rather the opposite that they nerfed the skillbased part of condi and delivered a cheese cake with frosting that people are desperate to hold on to.

Btw i noticed the axe and almost any clip with FB has an axe in it which is more on point tbh.

SharkBall.5829:

Other sources of burning (that are not nerfed): Ashes of Just (which IMO is a much stronger grandmaster than the all-the-time-passives one) and Symbolic burning (which you can easily have more of with FireBrand thanks to the short recharge of the healing mantra… think Zeal 233 Honor 322 Firebrand 222). TBH I think that Scepter/Focus + Axe/Shield might be my go-to weapon sets with FB.

it definitely is stronger, that i wont argue against but the issue is still there.

Scepter and sword does 50% condition damage compared to the axe due to this change.

In pvp axe is useless and tbh scepter and sword as well now. The only version of firebrand we will see in pvp/wvw is the Tome of Cheese version and in pve we will se people spamming skill on on axe no matter what build you are using.

The most interesting build and the most skillbased one is dead in the water.

Ragnarox.9601:

Brutaly.6257:

Ragnarox.9601:

Anyone noticed Mantra heal is aoe 300 range? It drops some kind of circle on the ground while all other mantras are cone oriented.

During elite pre view i stood in the mist and i hit people behind me with mantras, cant recall which one but it might have been Solace.

Even though i like the FB as a concept i just started to realize that FB isnt ready for release at all. In pve it will be so boring since it will be spamming axe 1 all the time. And in pvp it will do less melee condition damage compared to vanilla/DH.

Anet has one hell of a job balancing stuff in this elite since there is a bunch of bugs and numbers that needs to be fixed.

Picking 2-2-2 feels like smashing butons for that extra quickness. Its really fast paced and I dont like it.

I played mostly 2-2-3 and i love the concept of high speed micro management to have quickness up close to 100% in pvp. Its demanding but due to how they nerfed passive justice it just isnt rewarding. Honestly if they just fixed passive justice, removed burn from axe and replaced it with bleed (to compensate for passive justice buff) and had 600 cones on the mantras i would be game.

I understand that most people that are main guardians are more interested in Tome of Cheese. To even suggest that the nerf was done for balance is just silly since ToJ is a game breaker imho. Vastly over powered and requires about zero skill.

As it stands now i will invest my character hero points and get the fb on release but play thief or mesmer. Tried the Mirage and even though the mesmer community isnt satisfied it allows for some really weird (for the opponent) game play. I liked it.

Ragnarox.9601:

Anyone noticed Mantra heal is aoe 300 range? It drops some kind of circle on the ground while all other mantras are cone oriented.

During elite pre view i stood in the mist and i hit people behind me with mantras, cant recall which one but it might have been Solace.

Even though i like the FB as a concept i just started to realize that FB isnt ready for release at all. In pve it will be so boring since it will be spamming axe 1 all the time. And in pvp it will do less melee condition damage compared to vanilla/DH.

Anet has one hell of a job balancing stuff in this elite since there is a bunch of bugs and numbers that needs to be fixed.

Got to agree on a macro level, the idea and concept is really cool. By far the best of them elites in this expansion.

But there is so many thing that are flawed atm, it doesnt feel ready at all.

I hope they make a number of changes

In priority
1. Increase cone to 600 on mantras
2. Make Tomes instant
3. Remove burning from axe and replace it with a third bleed.
4. Let passive justice work the exact same way in FB as in DH/Guard

The above just needs to be adressed to make it playable in all game modes and not makign melee about spamming skill one on axe.

5. Buff healing in ToR to at least out heal a DH
6. Reduce cd on tomes (F2 and F3)
7. Either use the ammo system or the cd on skills as gate keepers.
8. In a perfect world all tomes should share gate keeper and with no cd so you just can swap to what you need.
9. The elite mantra has to be improved so it can compete with with RF. If not, tome builds will be the only build that is used in a competitive scenario.
10 the damage mantras needs to be merged to worth using
11 I would like some added mobility, a new fourth mantra that is a blink would be a great option.

Alwayshappy.2549:

I’ve played around with FB, but I don’t really see your concerns. To me..it only makes sense that they nerfed the passive a bit. There are so many ways to do burning now..I mean, things melted in PvP, aswell as PvE. The Tome alone does plenty of burning and considering tomes is the main thing about FB..

I tried sword and scepter as additional weapons and both worked out fine. Really looking forward to this spec. You may not be OP easily, but it’s certainly strong (after a few hours in PvP and two stress tests – so you/me can only improve – plus things can still be changed.

It is a fact that in a damage scenario sword/scepter has half the damage as axe.

The only real addition of burns is ToJ, and if you trait to play tomes (bottom traits).

Trait for a melee quickness build and come back and say that scepter and sword is fine compared to axe. In a pvp/wvw scenario. This build should have the highest damage since it has a much higher skill cap and actually needs a lot of micro management.

I understand why they did it, the desinged axe first and realized that it would be a monster but instead of changing axe they nerfed the underlying procc which had great impact on the other weapons.

The fix should have been to keep VoJ (core weapons and core guardian) as it was and balance the axe by just make the auto do bleeds and they could even have buffed the bleeds since axe can not proc VoJ as frequently as sword/scepter for instance.

The thing is that in pve it will be about spamming ToJ and auto on axe, there isnt room for any other weapon or build.

In pvp no one will grab the axe since it is to slow and telegraphed and require stationary targets to spam the auto. So basically ToJ all the way and ofc purging flames, meditations and SyG.

The damage gap between axe and the rest of the weapons is just absurd.

From a damage pespective i think this might be one of the least fun elites around. Support wise its really nice but needs tweaks.

nuaa.4962:

Short version: few condi skill = higher condi output per skill. Alot of condi skill = lower condi per skill, to keep balance. (That should be common sense)

Longer version:
Only reason Virtue of Justice was as good as it was, was because it was only real condi output guardian had, with some symbol burn and spirit weapon. But always seems like Voj was main one for guardian condi damage.

So if you went for condi spec, you where more or less only buffing very few skills, no matter what burning build you went for, which meant those few skill where allowed to output higher damage overall.
Firebrand is the other extreme, a spec filled with option for burning, so if you go for condi stats it needs to balance out over alot of skills. So making ToJ weaker makes perfect sense, now we got a good condi weapon, new burning utility and tome of justice.

Since you where talking about sword earlier, I startet to compare sword vs axe to get a idea of what difference is. Since i forgotten the numbers for sword (Doing LS3 maps i prefered greatsword with Procession of Blades, that just melts groups of mobs)
Skill 1: attack chain takes same amount of time, axe hits 6 times vs swords 5, and full axe chain is 4 bleed and 2 burn on top(can even be traited to around 2 more bleeds per full chain with Unrelenting Criticism!)
Symbol wise, sword is easy to hit with and does 6 hits. Axe is kittens +4 bleeding + counts as axe skill for Unrelenting Criticism procs. Will admit casting speed on axe symbol is annoying.
Zealots defense is only real advantage over axe, since that 8 hits, where last damage output left on axe is the pull that does 1 burning.

VoJ sword is 19 hits with all skills. so 6 burns at 2 sec(VoJ procs)
ToJ axe is 12 hits with all skills. So 4 burn at 1 sec(ToJ procs)+ 2 burn at 1 sec(Axe 1) + 1 burn at 2s sec(axe 3) + 4 bleed at 1 sec(axe 1) + 4 bleed at 4sec(axe 2) + 4 bleed at 4sec(Unrelenting Criticism)
=
12sec burn vs 7 sec burn + 36 sec of bleed. Just comparing those 2 weapons.
And those are base duration and without me looking at cooldowns, So they both build are about equal in condi out put. Now add in all other burning toys firebarnd is getting, if it is still hard to see why ToJ is 1 sec, i dunno what to say.
Just remeber they balancing stuff right now, so they could up ToJ passive duration if they feel firebrands dps is to low, if dps is fine they could up ToJ passive but lower burn duration on skills inside tome. THink positive we are more or less at lowest possible duration, so it can only go up! :p

I think you missed the point, compare axe with scepter/sword/great sword in an FB build. What will the second weapon set be. Its a a matter of build diversity.

Good luck with spamming auto alone on your FB, the rest of the weapons are useless for damage.

The only thing extra FB brings in is ToJ, the rest of the toys can be swapped for already existing utilities that work better, no one will use mantra for burns when SoJ and medis deal more damage and bring more utility.

I imagine most will play tomes because it easy/cheesy but if you trait 1 (bad design) or 2 for quickness the nerf to VoJ is a big deal and not called for and the ashes isnt an option as a trait in quickness builds. You need the passive to much.

Leo G.4501:

That’s all? A

That is all, you do realize it is a 50% nerf to every weapon in condi builds, except axe.

Malthurius.6870:

It’s basically encouraging you to use the tome itself rather than relying on the passive to deal condition damage. Don’t know why you wouldn’t want to use the tome if your goal is to do condi damage; not to mention axe would be the superior condi weapon even without the nerf thanks to its bleeding application.

I do want to use the tome but the specc is built around two playstyles mainly. Tomes and Quickness and one of them is broken. Quickness builds only have weapon option, period.

Sifu.9745:

I am sure that Power weapons/builds work just fine on FB, also healing/support weapons/builds should work even better. I guess healing/support Mace/Staff builds will became insanely op.
Finally i will be able to play a tank or/and healing role.

No they dont, since ToJ has really bad direct damage, some of the skills is on par with staff auto.

Healing is worse than DH

No it wont be a tank, i play wvw and a FB cant be in front for the lack of bubbles and one serious bad heal (bad for wvw.).

A shout/medi DH is better as tank/healer in practically all game modes.

The above is why nerfing VoJ the way they did is just bad since it limits us to axe and axe alone.

Zenith.7301:

Firebrand is gonna be a problem because we have no ranged condi weapon.

Correct!

Scepter is decent with old VoJ but now its useless.

Mikau.6920:

They could change the burning sources to bleeding on the axe. In that way could could buff the Tome of Justice passive to at least 1.5 sec.

This is what they should have done

Axe is so slow so it doesnt procc that much VoJ to begin with and by making it a bleeding weapon and having voj last 2s ec would still make more weapons valid in FB.

Sure there are more burns coming from ToJ now but healing capabilities in FB are lower in FB compared to DH and so is survivability so higher damaga output is logical.

Syktek.7912:

So basically you just want to hate FB since you don’t get to be OP and are unreasonable. Got it.

No, that isnt my point. I dont even play my guardian any more. FB as a concept is great imo but seriously how boring is it to run around and using one weapon since all other weapons under perform. There is no need to swap what so ever. The difference in burn damage is about 50% between the axe auto and the scepter auto.

Also consider the elite also lack the active defenses of the vanilla and if played as anet designed it also give up all damage while using F2+3.

Having an elite with only one working weapon is just bad. It reduces the options in builds and game play making it even more predictable than a DH.

Syktek.7912:

Brutaly.6257:

Syktek.7912:

FB justice was nerfed in order to balance out new sources of burn damage. You can still achieve respectable burn burst with regular weapons from my testing anyway.

And torch five was a loss of DPS regardless (And pretty much would nuke you if you attacked players with retaliation).

The only new sources of damage is ToJ. the issue is that in our first condi build/specc we actually loose out on condi damage in our weapons.

And skill 5 on torch is one of the best burn stackers we had so no it wasnt a loss of dps in a condi build. And who cares about being hit by retaliation 5 times when i build 5 stacks of burning while doing it.

I think you miss the point here, the weapons we had as condi build weapons are crap now. And they took a slow and badly designed weapon, crap for pvp, and made it the top damage dealer. In an elite that has not shields or mobility what so ever.

Torch 5 is only good at stacking burns if you’re hitting multiple targets which is situational and all it takes is a guardian to pop a virtue to make you nuke yourself (Also very easy to interrupt, and to avoid, since it has a long cast time). Symbols are better for res denial. This allows you to pick up focus or shield for more sustain and utility.

New sources of burn: Third attack in axe auto chain, Mantra of Flame, ToJ (which can dump massive amounts of burn instantly). A loss of 50% (On Justice Passive) of damage in exchange for ToJ, burns on your autoattack that will effect up to three targets and, once they fix MoF, a utility that poops out burns.

It’s hardly fair to keep Justice + PW doing elongated DoT while you now have three new sources of burn that hit just as hard or even harder (And if traited, Justice stays passive while in ToJ, which is just insane).

And no, the weapons aren’t crap now. I did plenty of testing and found them to be still quite effective at procing J/PW combo which still does massive burns. And if you’re so concerned about it you can still use the previous burn specs which have their very own strengths and better sustain than Firebrand will.

I exchange 5 retal hits any day in pvp for 5 stacks of burning. I exchange it even for 1 stack of burning with 3 sec duration.

Torch is fast hitting and isnt a loss of dps in a condi build, even on single targets.

The axe isnt an addition of burning, it is actually lower burn rate on axe compared to sword or scepter in DH or vanilla.

The mantra isnt an addition to burning since there are better options in vanilla and DH. It is an option but not a competive one.

More options isnt the same as better options and ToJ is the only better option and that is gated behind 4 different mechanics and also is justified in its power due to the total lack of mobility/disengage and active defenses FB has.

I understand why they did it but they did this the wrong way, removing options.

They should have only one condition on the slow axe (bad at proccing VoJ) and that condi shouldnt be burns. Why not 2 stacks of bleeds per hit instead, with 3 sec duration.

Basically the only weapon worth taking in FB is axe and if you want to play a good burn build just go vanilla or DH. That is irony for you when we finally get a “proper” condi build.

FB will be trash and a one trick pony in pvp, spamming ToJ.

So no, nerfed VoJ isnt justified at all and the way they compensated for 2 stacks of burning (1sec) in axe is just the wrong way to go.

The fact is that scepter/sword go a 50% nerf to their damage out put.

Btw being able to trait to keep the passives should have been in vanilla to begin with and its just bad it took them 5 years to realize that.

No i shouldnt be forced to use other speccs when anet say that this is a condi spec them self and only gives us one weapon that works properly with the specc.

Syktek.7912:

FB justice was nerfed in order to balance out new sources of burn damage. You can still achieve respectable burn burst with regular weapons from my testing anyway.

And torch five was a loss of DPS regardless (And pretty much would nuke you if you attacked players with retaliation).

The only new sources of damage is ToJ. the issue is that in our first condi build/specc we actually loose out on condi damage in our weapons.

And skill 5 on torch is one of the best burn stackers we had so no it wasnt a loss of dps in a condi build. And who cares about being hit by retaliation 5 times when i build 5 stacks of burning while doing it.

I think you miss the point here, the weapons we had as condi build weapons are crap now. And they took a slow and badly designed weapon, crap for pvp, and made it the top damage dealer. In an elite that has not shields or mobility what so ever.

FB: 3
Design and concept is easy 10/10. It has huge potential.

Implementation just has to get 2/10. Clunky tomes locked behind cast time, cool downs on tomes, ammo system and cd on skills in the tomes. 4 gate keeper to balance the skills. Why not make it more simple? Instant tomes, no cd on tomes or skills and use the initiative system in thief to balance it.

When using tomes 2/3 of them removes all means of damage. What?

Mantras are really cool and action based but unfortunately they have very little impact as support tools since the 300 cone is just awful. For personal use they are fun though!

The elite cant match renewed focus since RF is just plain better since it recharges the tomes.

Guardian healthpool demands active defenses like shields and stuff since it also lacks mobility. In fb that has worse tools for survival there are no means of mobility in the tomes or in the mantras. I didntthink they could make guardian any slower but they coul.

The nerf to passive justice renders all other weapons but axe useless since FB is a condition specialization and the guardian depends on the passive justice in order to do damage. this means that sword/scepter and torch skill 5 lost about 50% of the damage.

I can make a longer list but i think you get the point.

I give 3/10 in overall grades, to bad on such a great idea and concept.

Btw did i mention that the guardians most supportive weapon got nerfed so there in practice isnt a working auto attack.

FB will run a round with axe/torch for damage and mace/shield to compensate for the lack of heals in Tome of Resolve.

The nerf to justice passive killed even sword as a condi dealing weapon and since power just dont work (ToJ is only usuable with condi) it means all weapons that relied on passive justice just lost 50% of their damage.

This needs to be fixed and is imho the most urgent matter in the entire elite.

Even torch took a huge blow since skill 5 just got nerfed with 50%.

Here is my revised build, been playing with only two trait lines trated in wvw and living story just to understand/practice with out the third line. So lots of honor/virtues for me atm.

I am done for launch and we will see whats coming out in form of new stat combos.
For roaming in wvw and doing content solo in living story.
Valor/radiance and ofc virtues in combination with FB. If radiance i swap smite conditions for signet of judgement. I will probably not be playing FB solo with mantras.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf7elsAhqhYzQwcIwPEGNE1dY3yAIPf33+B-TxhAQBOU9HA8EAEjyPCt/QHOJALS/AkUCGOgA4111FcMGjxwQIECBpA4ZaE-e
For wvw and support
Honor/virtues and FB.
Full mantra build besides i use retreat or SyG as utilitie and focus on quickness, not traiting tomes besides the final trait.
This will have perma quickness, swiftness (if i use retreat) and regen and 5-8 might at all times in combat. Dodge rolling for 1500 healing and aegis heals for close to 1300 while having 1250 in condidamage while affected by quickness. Can also trigger its own combo fields in tomes.
3*2 condi clear in utilities, 3 or 4 stunbreakers in utilities.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAreSlsAhqhYzQwcIwPEGVEVe8Ov1DPABQTC-TRiAQBBSfgYUi5v9HMlqKQSJYZUe0Q1K6wpAAAPBgAAHAv39u/egjP+4jP+4Ge4hHe4hLFQg70A-e
Might be sweet tbh.

I am done for launch and we will see whats coming out in form of new stat combos.

For roaming in wvw and doing content solo in living story.
Valor/radiance and ofc virtues in combination with FB. If radiance i swap smite conditions for signet of judgement. I will probably not be playing FB solo with mantras.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsf7elsAhqhYzQwcIwPEGNE1dY3yAIPf33+B-TxhAQBOU9HA8EAEjyPCt/QHOJALS/AkUCGOgA4111FcMGjxwQIECBpA4ZaE-e

For wvw and support
Honor/virtues and FB.
Full mantra build besides i use retreat or SyG as utilitie and focus on quickness, not traiting tomes besides the final trait.

This will have perma quickness, swiftness (if i use retreat) and regen and 5-8 might at all times in combat. Dodge rolling for 1500 healing and aegis heals for close to 1300 while having 1250 in condidamage while affected by quickness. Can also trigger its own combo fields in tomes.
3*2 condi clear in utilities, 3 or 4 stunbreakers in utilities.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAreSlsAhqhYzQwcIwPEGVEVe8Ov1DPABQTC-TRiAQBBSfgYUi5v9HMlqKQSJYZUe0Q1K6wpAAAPBgAAHAv39u/egjP+4jP+4Ge4hHe4hLFQg70A-e

Might be sweet tbh.

Selendile.9106:

The idea is precisely due to the fact that RF is the preferred elite in all game modes. It allows such little diversity. The way FB in particular is designed, RF is all but NECESSARY.

As far as utilities not being tied to profession mechanics. Weaver is getting Unravel, which is also interacts directly with their profession mechanics.

I do agree with everything else you said though, and thanks for the feedback.. I just wish mantras weren’t dead on arrival.

- Sele

But wouldnt that even further improve RF? So one utility that resets virtues and one utility that charges the virtues/tome?

Imo it would be much better if the two damaging mantras where merged into one as you suggest.

The elite mantra is altered to a regular utility and a new elite mantra was introduced.

That mantra recharges mantras and resets the ammo. So if one mantra is on cd (used three charges) just press the elite once and the mantra on cd is recharged and reloaded.

That would be a elite that competed with rf. Or a elite that had 3 blinks with 600 range.

I hope the same and it would just need 600 range on those mantras and they would be ok.

I like the idea of merging the two mantras into one. It would give plenty over cover condis.

The new mantra i dont like so much. Tbh i dont think utilities should be tied to profession mechanics. This is why renewed focus is the preferred elite in every competitive build in the game.

I would rather see a new mantra that had 3*600 range blink that had an 300 aoe heal at the target location.

This would address both the lack of mobility (engage/disengage) and the lack of healing the FB has.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I have inquired about whether we are including updated elite specs. I do not anticipate that we will be posting a changelog for a stress test. I will update when I know more.

Please make a single thread/post as you did before the last stress test on what you have included in the stress test.

Thx in advance.

trailblazers or dire, works every where except min/max in fractals and raids.

It also depends on build, if you trait in honor heal power isnt a bad choice either as a secondary stat.

But i would wait. There will be new stat combos and hopefully there will be some sort of condi/heal/vit/concentration combo coming, or similar. To me that would be very interesting.

umbra lorde.9675:

could someone translate the time time to uk please

GMT might be a clue. Greenwich is in England :-)

Syktek.7912:

Imagine the new frontline guard is going to be Virtues, Honor, Firebrand. If tomes adapt well to WvW anyway.

I played virtues/honor/fb about 90% of the time in pvp/wvw and it was great fun but one thing that was impossible was frontliner in zergs

Frontline in zergs in wvw dont work. The lack of active defenses in utilities and the low mobility makes impossible to be the frontline supporter. DH is better just due to DH Resolve and the frontal blocks from courage.

Will the elites be in there and if so, will it be the updated version?

See you on friday.

Ragnarox.9601:

Firebrand is more of a mess than DH was.

Have to disagree, i find the traits to be logical and diverse tbh even though the upper row needs a serious buff.

What is messed up is the implementation (mainly casting times, cd, amount of healing and cones) of FB but i think its more of a numbers game for FB to be in a very good spot (pun intended).

The only major thing that cant be fixed with slight adjustments to numbers is the lack of active defenses and/or mobility. This will be an issue in pvp/wvw, the FB will never ever be in the right spot when the team needs frontline support since it cant sustain there and it cant move there.

FB needs a disengage and even more then vanilla guardian.

Selendile.9106:

Kerivek.5740:

Selendile.9106:

Well, let me amend that: all mantras except the burn mantra for PvE condi builds will be useless.

- Sele

I don’t even know that the burn mantra will be use for PvE. From what I recall it was a horribly inefficient way to apply burn.

Sadly, this is a fair point.

Pretty much sums up the issues with mantras, other skills do the job better.
Signet of Judgment do the burning part better, syg is better at stab, hold the line gives protection which fb almost lack…

Ragnarox.9601:

There can be lots of builds but that does not mean they are effective at rated or wvw solo/group content.

All true but diversity in it self is a good start and not something that has been the norm for the guardian.

GWMO.4785:

Brutaly.6257:

that sounds reasonable.

Have you considered combining quickfire and permeathing wrath?
Imo permeathing wrath is a must in an effective burn build and having both of them would make it even more powerful.

I did actually think about permeathing wrath. However if i look at the the traits in virtues. There is nothing much that would compliment the condition type of build other then that trait for the guardian. I personally think you will get more value from using zeal and radiance as those two have more synergy with the condi aspect of the class.

Brutaly.6257:

And by not traiting lore master i assume you plan on not using active ToJ in situation where you wont get a certain kill for refresh of VoJ?

You can actually. The minor master trait in Radiance called: Renewed Justice refreshes your F1 skill everytime you kill a foe. It has no cooldown as far as i know.

Brutaly.6257:

If you trait quick fire and permeathing wrath your rotation with torch might look slightly different as well. My impression (havent got the numbers so its pure observation) is that torch 5 is actually an increase in dps if using permeathing wrath/burn build. I believe its the same with sword 3, the number of hits trigger PW and adds dps even though the base skill dont add dps.

I am speculating here and cant back this up by numbers but intuitively i think leaving out permeathing wrath for a dps burn/build isnt optimal.

But i might be totally wrong here.

Quite possible. I also didnt get to properly test it yet. So my build craft is also theoretical. . As Anet did not allow us to try the specs in the testing facility. Was nice and fun to get our hands on it in pvp and wvw. Bu there way to many people there to do some proper testing. So that will have to wait. Going for a different setup might indeed be better in the end. The setup i presented is just my personal idea. Far from perfect. Any feedback is welcome <3

Not much besides permeathing wrath, to be honest it is enough. It almost doubles burn stacks on single targets and on multiple targets its much more, its aoe. The more enemies you hit the more it proccs.

My points was that you dont have to rely on renewed justice with Lore master traited since the passive will not go away even if you use the active.

Rather interesting see so different builds and different weapon sets. Might be so that FB actually allows for more than one new way of playing.

that sounds reasonable.

Have you considered combining quickfire and permeathing wrath?
Imo permeathing wrath is a must in an effective burn build and having both of them would make it even more powerful.

And by not traiting lore master i assume you plan on not using active ToJ in situation where you wont get a certain kill for refresh of VoJ?

If you trait quick fire and permeathing wrath your rotation with torch might look slightly different as well. My impression (havent got the numbers so its pure observation) is that torch 5 is actually an increase in dps if using permeathing wrath/burn build. I believe its the same with sword 3, the number of hits trigger PW and adds dps even though the base skill dont add dps.

I am speculating here and cant back this up by numbers but intuitively i think leaving out permeathing wrath for a dps burn/build isnt optimal.

But i might be totally wrong here.

Ragnarox.9601:

This was my build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQRAsd8OMYIqbx2ABQu+yv+D-T1RGABtt/gu6HE4kA8o6P5pEMKlfA8EA+GQAMIIIAWr1ataIEChgUAbtTD-w

Instead of other sword I used Axe and sometimes Greatsword instead sw/focus.

Used all Mantra build.

FB traits:

2-2-2

was pretty much fun in pve, with 2-3k burning trough quickness and high dmg from power.
Healing for 82 for every boon I give.

In pvp and wvw for other hand, FB is underwhelming due to cooldowns and casting times.

Played the exact same build (except final trait in FB) with a couple of friends (pvp) and the selfhealing can be hysterical if you can get them in the cone. Did some insane recoveries and actually got accused of cheating.

If they increase cone range at release this might be my go to build even though i feel some what happy about not being forced into valor.

GWMO.4785:

Awsome right? :P

Dont know if its awesome but it is interesting.

Why not permeathing wrath? It should improve burn stack building at single targets as well.

You build for burning and say you you dont focus on bleeding and still you traited bleeding. Why not quickness all the way so you get quickness when entering a Tome of Justice.

I think that would increase your damage even more.

The reason i focus on aegis/stability and quickness is not so much survivability as it is the dps gain i get from more stacks of burning.

Just over 2 weeks until we can play the Firebrand and with some tweaks from Anet (cast times on tomes and cones on mantras mainly) i might come back to the guardian (my first and true love in GW2) and play some serious support in wvw and pvp.

I thought it might be a good time that we started to do some theory crafting so her is one of the builds i played in both wvw and pvp that i found to be really fun and intuitive.

This is the wvw version.

I didnt trait the tomes except the last trait for passive so hammer was a good choice to add in for blast finisher. Basically the last skill i used in the tome was always skill 4.

Traits
First frontline build i used that actually could be without valor so i went with honor/virtues//FB
Honor 221
Virtues 231
FB 223

Vigourous precision, i had about 15% crit chance in my build and that was enough to get a dependable proc. Ofc for energy sigils..

Protective Reviver as a trait is good but for an FB it might be even better. Quickness from aegis and since i also use pure of heart it means 1k healing for me and the one i am reviving.

Selfless daring, i added in healing power so each dodge roll healed for 1k. I supported those with sigil of energy.

Pure of heart. The build i used could give out 6 aegis actively and 2 aegis passively (stunned or reviving). ToC not included here so it is actually even more.

Purity of body regenerating endurance for energy sigils.

Pure of voice. Reduced cd on Retreat, allowing 100% uptime on swiftness, aegis and 1k heal on 24 s cd and removal of one condition in a 600 radius, add in quickness. I think most think this is a bad utility but it suits me and my playstyle tbh and in an supportive aegis build its mandatory.

Inspired virtues, great support trait, a bit less so with the casting time of the tomes but still solid.

Retaliatory subconscious. Aegis again

Virtue or retribution, tbh the only trait that just dont contribute, but its worth it.

I used glacial heart in the pre view and stress test but i think i will use absolute resolution when this goes live. Its mainly the blast from hammer i want and the cd of that skill has no relevance in my build.

Power of the virtues. This build has more or less 5-6 boons running so its a nice little add on.

Permeathing Wrath. Nuff said!

Weapons:
Scepter/Shield (sigil of smoldering/energy)
Hammer (sigil of corruption/energy) is for blasts and being equipped for kills, stacking sgil of corruption. Nice cc as well but no need to reduce cd.
Scepter is really good when you add quickness and the main build i played focused on quickness and mobility. I used shield for the dome and ofc the aegis on shield. This is the main damage dealer but before entering tomes i always swapped to hammer.

I didnt trait the tomes except the last trait for passive so hammer was a good choice to add in for blast finisher. Basically the last skill i used in the tome was always skill 4.
For me 5 pages are enough per use of the tomes. In and out while having quickness and stability is the way to play the tomes.

Liberators wow, quickness when using a healing skill
Swift scholar. Quickness when equipping or stowing a tome
Stalwart speed. Quickness when applying aegis or stability.
Imbued haste, increased stats while affected by quickness
Loremaster for passvive VoJ mainly, having reduced cd on tome skills is just….meh. Activate tome and during quickness cast all 5 skills and get more quickness when leaving the tome..

Utility
Mantra of solace
Mantra of lore
Retreat
Mantra of potence
Mantra of liberation

Armor/Trinkets
Trailblazers armor and a mix of apothecary, magi and trailblazers in weapons and trinkets.
I used water runes in the preview (if memory serves me) but will use rune of durability when this goes live. The low cd on the procc on those runes is just to good to not use.

Had lower stats in beta (exotic armor) but will have these stats when it goes live in my ascended gear.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAreSlsAhmhYpQwcIwPEGVEVe8Ow1DPABQEA-TliAQBjU5h/2foMKRupSwOcKASwRAwZKhAwDA4Q6Dco6PBAQAeP3z9uHwRP6P/5P/Z/8n/8n/8nlCwrdVA-w
Perma swiftness and high uptime on quickness. If i am using a preset rotation i think i can have 100% uptime so in pve its possible and in some situations in pvp/wvw as well.

This is a very nice build for my play style and its like playing the piano. There is always a button to push and if you want to micro manage your quickness its a lot of buttons to push and internal cool downs to keep in mind.

When you succeed with that its a cool setup and i imagine rather annoying after being blocked 8 times by aegis alone in a very short time frame, while healing the opponent for over 8k when he blocks,

One of the biggest issues (which i just seen two or thee posts about) for me is how you cancel a tome, either by using all pages (its fine) or by pressing the F-key again.

In pvp and wvw there is lag and i put the tomes on cd so many times just because the button didnt respond.

I would prefer the tomes to be:
Instant cast
No use of pages on skill 1, in all tomes
Skill 1 in all tomes has a damage component
Blast finisher on skill 2, in all tomes
Same cd as virtues on the tomes
And just rehash the virtues and place them on skill 5 and when you trigger the virtue you cancel the tome So If you use ToJ if you press 5 you get 3 stacks of bunirng, might, retaliation (if traited in virtues) and the tome is closed with a CD.

Add a 600 cone on mantras and that the healing mantra also heal allies.

If this was added it believe the FB would be good to go in all game modes.

For me it is not the mitigation part that is interesting in RF, it is the recharge of the tomes.
I used SyG when i activated F2 and/or F3 and F1 i precharged every time before i made contact. I think SyG handled cc very well when i entered F1/F2.

In quickness builds i will use shout och mantra as elite but in a build that focuses on tomes i cant see RF not being used..

Malthurius.6870:

In general, quickness isn’t as coveted as it once was, and Firebrand will end up having a lot more sources of it. FmW may retain limited use in WvW, but that range isn’t much of a selling point in other game types, imo.

And pvp even though i can not see RF being replaced in any competetive build but if compared to the mantra, it is better.