Guild Wars 2

ArchonWing.9480:

Depraved Ambience.7942:

ArchonWing.9480:

LFG Auric Basin AFKers and flax nodes. We see that lots of people are doing the meta but we don’t care if they fail or not because death to elitism. Will tag for Hero Point train once we see Octovine decreases in health.

The difference is you don’t see people who lose at Octovine taking to the forums and raging that a handful of people AFK made all the difference and caused them to lose and they should be kicked and the nodes should be removed.

Yah, cuz it’s never toxic when HoT metas fail

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Repeatable-Hero-Points-need-nerf/5878905
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Disable-ALL-HPs-in-HoT-with-meta-up
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/TIL-Not-Joining-a-Squad-gets-you-called-out/6009264
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/TIL-Not-Joining-a-Squad-gets-you-called-out/6018444

Basically, everyone going on a HoT map and not joining/supporting the commanders/squads is a totally wasted and useless playerslot.

This took less than a minute. I can keep finding them

So remove the nodes, disable hero points, and promote toxic player behaviour! Salt for everyone!

ArchonWing.9480:

LFG Auric Basin AFKers and flax nodes. We see that lots of people are doing the meta but we don’t care if they fail or not because death to elitism. Will tag for Hero Point train once we see Octovine decreases in health.

The difference is you don’t see people who lose at Octovine taking to the forums and raging that a handful of people AFK made all the difference and caused them to lose and they should be kicked and the nodes should be removed.

“Pvt. Ambience reporting for duty!

Sir, yes, sir! I understand that WvW is for serious players only, sir! We’re at war, sir! Yes, sir, a soldier does not come into battle without being prepared, sir! Sir, yes, sir, I have entered battle without being optimally geared, sir! No, sir, I do not believe that my opinion matters, sir! Sir, yes, sir, I understand that that makes me a less serious player than you, sir! Sir, no, sir, I do not wish for convenience for my PvE characters, sir! They are worms, sir! Worthless worms, sir! Yes, sir, I realize that the ANet upper brass agree with you, sir! Sir, no, sir, I will not sully WvW anymore with my worthlessness, sir! Yes, sir, I would return the supply on all my toons if I could, sir! Sir, yes, sir, WvW is serious business, sir! Sir, no, sir, WvW is not a game, sir!"

skullmount.1758:

Depraved Ambience.7942:

This change seems to cater to only the most “hardcore” and “serious” of WvW players. Just going to throw this out there: if you’re truly “coming prepared” for WvW, you won’t even be needing to stop at a bank in WvW before you get on with your very serious business, so the bank NPC in Citadel would be fairly unnecessary for the “hardcore” players. Real serious WvW players would be be stationed in a fully upgraded keep anyways, wouldn’t they?

Along those lines, both the forge and the TP should also, which I’m in favor of, since apparently the crafting stations weren’t needed either.

Which is why this seems like such a silly and illogical change. Either everything should stay or everything should go. Either make all WvW players go to PvE for any of that related stuff, or allow PvE players use that related stuff in WvW (which is often how they get curious about WvW and become WvW players).

This change seems to cater to only the most “hardcore” and “serious” of WvW players. Just going to throw this out there: if you’re truly “coming prepared” for WvW, you won’t even be needing to stop at a bank in WvW before you get on with your very serious business, so the bank NPC in Citadel would be fairly unnecessary for the “hardcore” players. Real serious WvW players would be be stationed in a fully upgraded keep anyways, wouldn’t they?

Threather.9354:

If scouts complain about not being able to scout while crafting, boohoo, get some friends, get server community guild or something, WvW is a teamgame, I lost plenty of garries cuz I had to go craft ascended gear.

Because leaving the borderlands in order to craft your gear will make your response time better… Logic?

I’d love to see the difference in “entering the map” population from before and after the crafting stations were removed. I’d love to see whether there was a significant drop in the number of players participating in WvW, especially amongst low rank (below mid-Bronze or maybe Silver or whatever) players. I cannot but help suspect that there has been a noticeable decrease in population and participation already. For myself, I already stopped caring about WvW after linking (not even my points, so why even bother?), but now I am even less likely to see my servermates call for help on the home borderland, because I won’t be there, because I will be standing around some Tyrian city refining my stacks of elder wood logs for guild upgrades for WvW tactics… Now isn’t that some irony!

I’m sitting AFK at the crafting stations in my “home” borderland right now!

I highly doubt my presence is a hindrance to the, literally, handful of other people on the map.

Also, if the metric to determine WvW active population is based on players simply entering the map, it is seriously flawed. That’s like counting airline passengers based on how many people enter an airport…

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Yargesh.4965:

Yeah, I will miss them as well. Was the main reason I went to WvW.

So the main reason you go into WvW is to not actually WvW. . .? Nice, posts like this make me happy they removed the crafting stations. Go to PvE or get a Royal Terrace Pass and craft there.

So, you don’t want more bodies to stack your zerg? You don’t want more players to come help and learn how to help your server increase PPT or win big fights? Oh, you only want players who realize that WvW is srs bizniz! Okay.

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

We made this decision because we have been seeing an increase in queue times with world linking. Upon observation we found there have been players taking up space in the maps who are only crafting and not participating with their teams.

Perhaps because of the exorbitant amount of materials crafting you need to craft ascended armour these days in order to stay competitive in WvW?

I’d really like for ANet to stop making a string of rapid-fire changes, the consequences of which are difficult to ascribe to one change over another. How in the world can they say, “After world linking, the return of the Alpine borderlands, and the implementation of reward tracks, including the Gift of Battle reward track, without a doubt it is the crafting stations that are causing unreasonable queues and we are therefore removing them,” with any expectation that we are to believe that?

lil devils x.6071:

Players should be in WvW to play WvW and not for crafting, farming or afking. Players coming to do other things than play WvW are adding to servers population preventing them from actually obtaining WvW players to compete. I not only think they should have removed crafting stations, but also farming nodes, Gift of Battle reward track, Mystic forge, and anything else that brings players in to do things other than play WvW.

Instead, they should make a server wide chat and make some cities server based, especially lions arch so players have some place to recruit and bring players into WvW to play WvW for the right reasons. WvW needs players coming in to actually play WvW not farm and craft.

Only players who know that WvW is srs bizniz may play WvW! :P

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

If ANet wanted, there are alternatives for the convenience of having crafting stations in one’s home borderland

• Adding them to Edge of the Mists — that allows WvWers to craft without losing their reward track accumulation.

This won’t work if you switch between The Mists and Edge of the Mists. The participation tracking is separate, so your regular WvW activities don’t count for participation in EotM and vice versa.

Calliope.8675:

Perhaps, as a guild hall upgrade, they could add all of the crafting stations to the market or the side of it. At least then people would have easy access to crafting stations from anywhere in the PvE map without cluttering the WvW maps (if that’s what wvwers are really afraid of).

ANet said that they were not going to put crafting stations in guild halls so that people wouldn’t basically become hermits. They are not putting them in guild halls so that players have to go to cities and “be” social.

So, you don’t want WvW players to stay in The Mists? Or you don’t want PvE players to go to The Mists? Or you just like seeing queues? “I need to go craft my once-a-day ascended mats… Oh, nope, I’ll have to requeue…” . . . I’m very confused by this change. And leaving the little banners above the stations seems like such a tease…

What I don’t get is, for all these players who are hating on the desert borderlands, since it looks like you will be “stuck” with it and you know that ANet is going to release another, amended poll on mixed vs. rotational borderlands, why you don’t just campaign for and vote for mixed borderlands? Then you will always have your alpine maps to play on, and those who like and enjoy and want to play on desert borderlands can do so also.

I mean, if you were to vote for mixed borderlands, then you won’t be “stuck” playing anything…

Ariel.6291:

The rumors of the death of TFoR are greatly exagerated. As is our non-particpation in WvW. Not happy with any of this, but hoping we will weather the storm and that ANET will either come to its senses or we can find other ways to enjoy the game.

BUT TFOR is alive and well and Ursa (um.. that’s me) is still here.

:)

Hooray!

LetoII.3782:

Sorry BG stacked your server, honestly.
I’m sure getting thrown into t1 like was a complete system shock after t8.

But it’s like ten bucks to transfer

It’s not even that. I don’t mind being linked with Blackgate or anything like that. I just wanted to acknowledge that linking did not occur without trauma to some guilds, servers, and players.

As for transfering, I am ET for life and will remain stubbornly so, and it seems that all tiers have essentially the same environment now anyways so transfering would do little to change the situation. Thanks for the suggestion though. (PS: I’m not giving ANet my money to avoid their Band-Aid.)

Daemonne.5018:

TFoR (Best Monty Python voice) “Ahm not dead yet…”

Oh, Dae, I know it’s not completely dead and the players are still around, but the environment we are in now certainly doesn’t let TFoR shine, doesn’t let TFoR do what it does best. Glad to see you guys still kicking though.

Linking has been disastrous for some servers, guilds, and players. If you know of any guilds or servers that have been hit hard by linking, post here so that they may be remembered and honoured in some small way.

The Forgers of Orr [TFoR] of Eredon Terrace

It is with great sadness that I acknowledge the death of a guild that had been around on Eredon Terrace since I was messing about on my boyfriend’s account, before I even had my own. TFoR, especially Ursa, made ET’s guild event nights a total blast. They were there to step up when many of the other major ET WvW guilds decided to transfer away, and they helped build a fun and exciting ET community that I was proud and very happy to be a part of. I am glad that I got to be a part of this server with TFoR and Ursa making WvW a total blast for me, because I am not a person naturally drawn to WvW. If it weren’t for them, and fortunately some of the nice ET WvW players still out there, I would never step foot in The Mists. They will be missed, along the ET event nights that they held. I’m truly, so very sorry that I couldn’t prevent TFoR’s demise at the hands of linking, even though I foresaw it and predicted it here on these very forums. Rest in peace, brave fighters for the community, The Forgers of Orr.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Depraved Ambience.7942:

You get Tomes in every section of WvW reward track, every second section of PvP reward track, in Fractal daily chests, as personal story rewards. If you aren’t getting a lot of Tomes, what are you doing?

Don’t forget daily login rewards. Up to 16 a month if you select the 6 ToKs from the end of month reward (10 if using the end of month reward for something else).

I think I forgot about these ones because they are such a waste that I don’t even register them as an item…

I don’t want to pay money or gems for something they hand out for free by the handful!

You get Tomes in every section of WvW reward track, every second section of PvP reward track, in Fractal daily chests, as personal story rewards. If you aren’t getting a lot of Tomes, what are you doing?

Besides that point, you get experience for literally everything you do in open world. Sorry, but Tomes are junk.

Tomes of Knowledge are so ubiquitous, so easily accumulated that most players have multiple stacks of Tomes in their banks or multiple thousands of spirit shards from consuming them. These are NOT an item that a player wants to get out of a Black Lion chest – they are not worth the money or the gold needed for the cost of a key! If you insist on having these in the godkittened loot table for Black Lion chests, bring back key farming.

TheGrimm.5624:

Depraved Ambience.7942:

Some players actually do enjoy the desert borderlands, so stop whining about how you’d like to see it gone. I voted [Yes 1: 2 Alpine, 1 Desert] because I know many players will just want to blob Alpine, so for those of use who like both maps, it may be possible to play Desert without blob, Alpine without blob, or Alpine with blob. Maximum choice. Yes 2 would just result in Alpine with blob, 2 Deserts without blob, and maximum whine.

I appreciate your sentiment, but if you prefer DBL over ABL you should vote that way since this is also a mini-poll on people that like DBL as well. You can always go back in to change your vote. That’s why they are combining the YES votes to compare to the NO (rotation) votes.

No, I voted exactly the way I wanted to. I know what I chose. If I were to change my vote, it would be to a No vote because I would not mind rotation between the maps.

funghetto.1584:

welcome to Eotm in 4 other maps.
thanks anet.

New and Improved! Now with queues!!

Some players actually do enjoy the desert borderlands, so stop whining about how you’d like to see it gone. I voted [Yes 1: 2 Alpine, 1 Desert] because I know many players will just want to blob Alpine, so for those of use who like both maps, it may be possible to play Desert without blob, Alpine without blob, or Alpine with blob. Maximum choice. Yes 2 would just result in Alpine with blob, 2 Deserts without blob, and maximum whine.

Please release the results of the WvW Linking poll with results broken down statistically by world, by proportion of active versus inactive player votes, and by tiers (pre-linking).

Diku.2546:

May we see the Poll Results that helped to Decide the Future of WvW?

---

What’s the Criteria to be considered an Active or In-Active WvW Player?

---

Broken Down…

Poll Results:

Please note…Combined Total Number of Active & In-Active WvW Players from ALL Worlds were used below.

x% = No Vote Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = No Vote In-Active Players / Total WvW Players

x% = Yes Vote Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = Yes Vote In-Active Players / Total WvW Players

x% = Undecided Vote Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = Undecided Vote In-Active Player / Total WvW Players

100%

---

Source of Active WvW Player Votes:

x% = World A No – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players
x% = World A Yes – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players

y% = World A No – Votes In-Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = World A Yes – Votes In-Active Players Total WvW Players

x% = World B No – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players
x% = World B Yes – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players

y% = World B No – Votes In-Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = World B Yes – Votes In-Active Players Total WvW Players

x% = World C No – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players
x% = World C Yes – Votes Active Players / Total WvW Players

y% = World C No – Votes In-Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = World C Yes – Votes In-Active Players Total WvW Players

x% = All Undecided Active Players / Total WvW Players
y% = All Undecided In-Active Players / Total WvW Players

100%

Please, please, please, do this!!!!

Diku.2546:

Was 5 Days Enough Time to Decide the Future of WvW?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Poll-21-May-World-Linking-Closed/first#post6166866

Felt more like 4 Days for the No Votes…but then again the Poll was opened early with Yes Votes leading the way.

Many of the players who would have voted “No” already voted before the poll was even posted. With their feet. When they left WvW. And GW2. For other games with better balance.

You should not be bragging about this as a feature. This is a quick fix that doesn’t address the true problem. Thanks for trying though, I guess.

The “host” servers aren’t like parents, in my opinion. They are not really mentoring us or teaching us stuff we don’t already know. The are just hosts, like a host country of a refugee camp. Can we be called Refugee Worlds instead (since we’re not really guests, either)?

Knob.6835:

Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe most people prefer group fights between 10 – 25 players give or take some. But the 40+ endless blob fest is starting to get old. It usually starts out with multiple tags on the map then enemy brings the blob then we combine into a giant blob then the next team. It’s the same thing every day. Is there a solution to this? Should there be a solution to this or is this really what the majority enjoys?

This really is what the majority enjoys, according to the poll results.

ANet, by implementing world linking and accpeting the blobling majority’s “Yes” vote, has taken away any chance of a player not getting on a 24/7 blobfest server. Players no longer have any choice of server style, so I’m sorry, but you’re stuck with this incredibly boring, lame, blobby mode now. Good luck in EotM 2.

Loosmaster.8263:

Ariel.6291:

Actually, one of the worst things about this, is that all the folks who have been so angry about linking that they were not playing WvW during this time, where never given any notice or opportunity to vote.

So, the people who hated this the most were excluded from the polling. Talk about a fixed vote.

The communication was here. Sorry they don’t visit the forum. The old saying “Ignorance is no excuse”. If you are truly interested in this game mode, they should be monitoring this forum.

I think you’re completely missing the point. The vote was made way too late, especially for many players who hated it right off the start. They voted with their feet.

Can ANet rename the “guest” servers – or as they so telling referred to us, “subworlds” – as “Refugee Worlds”? That would be most fitting.

You mean, more expensive transfer, since that might become the case in order to stop bandwagon-hopping.

Oh, isn’t that nice? In the greyed out overlay text when you hover over your server colour in the WvW window, there’s a little tiny asterisk marking your home world. What a lovely recognition when you are a subworld guest.

If they make them available based on match-up position, that would be seriously unfair to the “guest/subworlds”, especially with no potential to change ranking or position.

The “subworlds” (ANet’s term, by the way) are very unfairly disadvantaged in the current system. “Significantly lower population caps”?! No wonder we can’t all get into the same map together when we are trying to rally as a guild!

What reason do the subworlds have to care about WvW anymore? Our points aren’t our own, our names aren’t our own, our ranking is fossilized with absolutely no prospect of ever becoming a host world ever, our player kills don’t count toward the score anyway, we face more frequent and longer queues than the host world players. I’m looking for a legitimate answer here, because I can’t see any advantage to linking for the subworlds’ players.

And as others have already mention:
-linking does not address the coverage issue; there are still long periods of time where there are only a handful of players on any given map, or worse, a handful of friendlies and a giant blob of enemies spawncamping.
-linking does not actually address population imbalance.
-linking provides opportunities for “elite, higher tier” worlds to bully lower-tier worlds (not exactly the outcome of the “opportunities to make new friends” ANet expected).
-the guest worlds face logistical nightmares trying to intergrate into the host worlds, only to be quickly thrown around and have to do it again when the next linking happens.
-player choice of server style is completely gone, and the only option left is blobbing (EotM 2: New and improved! Now with queues!!).

Please just get rid of the linking and see if the other WvW changes, such as the implementation of the reward tracks, had any affect on WvW activity. This can only be tested if only one thing is changed at a time. Otherwise how can you possibly know what worked and what didn’t?

ANet, I don’t want to give you my money anymore. It’s as simple as that.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Just curious, what world do you play for? I’m looking at the current breakdown of votes by world right now, and nearly every world has voted in favor of World Linking. There are a few that are 50/50, and one that is against it.

Yeah, no kitten most worlds voted for it. You are recruiting for top-tier worlds for free.

I’d be very surprised if Eredon Terrace was not the world that voted against world linking. Linking has completely destroyed us.

How can you tell whether it was the world linking or the reward tracks or something else that has “reinvigorated” this game mode? ANet changed everything all at the same time, so it’s impossible to tell what has actually had an impact or made a difference.

While it may be true that for some players, it seems like WvW has more activity on their end, I can say that Tier 1 actually has less objective flipping than tier 8 due to the fact that small groups (read: between 2 and 6 players) can generally not get anything done before the blobs show up. This has made WvW even more stale than pre-linking. The fights has no tactics, unless you count the incredibly lame pirate-shipping. I’m immensely sad that linking has happened and, according to the poll results, will become a permanent thing. I will no longer being playing it other than for possibly dailies. My server is dead, our guilds are dead, our rallies do not, cannot, and will not happen. WvW no longer exists. We now have EotM and EotM 2 (New and improved!! Now with queues!!).

So what game are all you low-tier WvWers going to move to? I’m off to Ark: Survival Evolved.

So, this is what is wrong with democracy.

The majority should never, ever be allowed to decide what happens to a minority! Do I really need to bring up historical examples of why this is bad?

I know it’s just a silly game, but this is honestly the worst thing that has happened to WvW ever and is totally ruining my enjoyment of the mode, and tier 8 players are quitting in droves because of linking – our guilds are dying. ANet, your solution to “fix” the population is to make people leave and to ruin friendships and communities?! Do better!

Please, please, please, do not even think of keeping your free recruiting for tier 1 and 2 going. Of course they are all going to vote to keep linking; they need blobs to function and you are making them not have to pay for them anymore. Of course they are going to outvote us because they outnumber us lower tier players; they’ve done that from the start!

I can’t even express how disappointed I am with this beta and this result. Being a low tier WvW player and seeing the very real possibility of world linking being a permanent thing, I am distraught and disheartened by the loss of my community. It won’t survive. There is nothing positive about linking for the “subworld” that is linked, and we have no reason to care about WvW or PPT or results or anything anymore. Goodbye, ET. Goodbye, WvW. Hello, EotM, I guess…

Rasudido.6734:

Im sad to see these handful of ET people throwing their salt around as if it’ll make a difference. You should figure out you’re in an underwhelming minority of people who dislike the change when you are the ONLY NA people complaining in the whole thread.

I encourage you to talk to people in Blackgate, join them on WvW, ask them for help if you need to since all of BG’s guilds are open about cooperating with any and all ET people so we can have a nice time. Well at the very least be linked for the remainder of the beta so make the best of it.

To that handful of people who cant let the salt go? transfer off. Go try and chase your t8 dream which obviously doesnt exist anymore since even t4 people are reporting similar results in queues and map activity to what happened in t1. I wish you luck.

There’s no salt toward Blackgate. Linking’s just not what we want.

Sirendor.1394:

1. Low tier playstyle is just as good as high tier playstyle, it is just different.

We want to cooperate with the bigger server, but we don’t want to be part of the bigger server.

The entire point of what we are saying is that we want that “t8 dream which obviously doesnt exist anymore” [sic]. We’re not upset about having to play with Blackgate. We’re upset because linking has completely destroyed what we had when what we had was good for us!

Jayne.9251:

Virtute.8251:

Essays aren’t changing the fact that stubborn small town pride is misplaced in this, here and now.

If anything, the responses here are a great indication the community ties and server identification are still incredibly important motivators as to why people still play.

If I wanted to play on Blackgate, I’d transfer to Blackgate. I was proudly Eredon Terrace; now, I am a faceless, nameless blobling on Blackgate. My boyfriend was also proudly ET but he has just quit the game, period, because of linking, as it has ruined his favourite game mode. I am incredibly disheartened by linking, and am also considering quitting as well, despite enjoying other modes.

This is the wrong way to deal with WvW. It is essentially a forced transfer that takes away any and all player agency. Go back to the old way and let players who want to transfer do so. At least that way, players can choose to join whatever style of server they wish. If you’re going to taker away players’ choice inside the game, they are going to choose to go outside the game. I would choose ET – with its “deadness”, low population and low tier standing but tight and welcoming community – over a “free” transfer to Blackgate or any other server any day. If you take away my ET, I have much less reason to stay and support the game. This WvW linking beta has soured all of the great features in the spring quarterly update. Please don’t let this idea ruin Guild Wars 2 for me.

BlackDevil.9268:

• #4 This skill should be able to cast during running and have it’s energy cost be reduced to 10. With such high cooldown it shouldn’t also have such high energy cost. Increase the radius to 600 too. I understand the ventari is based on short range heals, but with the current mobility the range surely needs to be improved as your ally is most likely already dead before you can even get to him to heal him.

I also think that the radius should be increased to 600 and have its energy cost reduced. It would be nice if Renewing Wave applied aegis to allies as well; that would make it feel very effective for support and really give allies a chance to get out of a bad situation. The biggest change I would really like to see for this skill is for it to be a blast finisher to enable more interactive group play by allowing staff revenants to blast allies’ fields.

Malediktus.9250:

How exactly do camp defense events work? The camp defense achievement seems to be the hardest one to increase. The reason? Most of the time you do not get the event medal. It doesnt matter if you destroyed an attacking zerg or won a small scale fight, if you rezzed NPCs or killed mercenaries (Hyleks, Ogre, Dredge).
I would say I have less than 20% success rate of getting the medal, no matter if I did one or a mix of the above activities. Its most likely bugged and should be looked at.

[I tried this mostly on eternal battlegrounds, so I am unsure if it is an EBG related problem.]

It seems to be necessary to kill an enemy player inside the area encompassed by the capture ring if it were up. Even a little bit outside of the ring won’t get you credit for the defense event.

Again, you missed the point. A person should not have to transfer to enjoy one of the game modes. It should be available to every single player in every single server. It would be better if the WvW were more balanced in some way. I’m not advocating that WvW becomes as ideally balanced as PvP, for example, but “The answer is to transfer” is not addressing the fundamental problem.

You guys are being anal about the use of the term ‘ktrain’ and completely missing the point of the original post. This is what WvW is often like for ET these days, and it’s just not fun. It’s not fun because there is no current way to address the complete imbalance in WvW, so it’s literally nothing more than ‘bigger population = winning’. There is no strategy necessary, no skill – just throw bodies at it until you win. Being steamrolled, even if they other two servers are fighting each other, is disheartening and ruins the fun of what should and could be a great game mode. As it stands now, unless you are lucky enough to be on or pay to transfer to a 24/7 blobbing server, WvW is frustrating as all hell.

And they are still trying. They are dropping portals to invade the citadel.

A group of Borlis Pass invaders is attacking Eredon Terrace’s citadel, exploiting spots that they can jump up into it.