Will the WvW issues be dealt with the same way as been promised when we had a DEV running inguild with us during the WvW Tournament? Or how it’s promised to dealt with since the last 2 years?
In that case, great to have a new mickey mouse face around in the forums.
Anything that involves a Guild competing against another in form of PVP is in my opinion GVG. However, I am keeping an open mind to the new system whereas I am actually looking forward to more organized battles and smaller teams.
Running out of combat.. Reminds me of [IRON] back in the day who ran into the Orchards at the south camp to break combat.
Imo, something that hasn’t been addressed yet but seems to get more popular these days is ‘resetting’ the fights on the stairs (spectator spots in OS). Imo, the only place where the battle can take place is at the flat center area. Hiding behind statues, deep onto the stairs and even into spectators is a very low blow and shouldn’t be happening imo. Ofcourse it damages the opposing guild having such behaviour as it shows mere lack of respect however, it’s been happening more frequent than ever lately.
What is your stance on that?
We are currently recruiting once again. Right now, we are looking for players to strengthen our Melee Train and looking for the following professions:
- Warrior
- Guardian
- Elementalist
Are you one of these classes and looking for a well-established guild who focusses on GVG-Raiding? Tired of the PPT Game and Conquest mode yet looking for a brand new adventure in this game? Ensure to apply @ http://www.visceraleffect.com . Be sure to fill out the application form. Videos of your gameplay are not required, however, it does give you a higher chance of being considered. Last but not least, here is one of our recent raid videos to give you an impression of who we are and what we do. http://youtu.be/i67lnlSHWZM
To be frank, during the Adopt-A-Dev program my guys got encouraged to join in forum discussions and provide feedback to the World Versus World Realm in general. While myself and others have done that, very little has been shown from Anet’s side which made the statements and encouragements during the program, empty words.
I understand implementations will take a long while for those to happen, if at all. But I expected atleast discussions to some extend to get things on the rails again. Sadly Anet gave up after the White-Swords suggestion, which is a big shame.
At this point, I doubt Anet will ever provide love to the WVW guys, seeing how they continue to focus on the ‘New Player Experience’ rather than addressing the Veteran guys.
Frankly, I’m not expecting anything from ArenaNet especially after the massively failed Adopt-A-Dev program.
Didn’t your guild get a dev? Why do you consider it as failed?
Well, in our experience we believe the Adopt-A-Dev program quite succeeded with Jessica. We were able to have great discussions regarding what we would like to see, how to re-invent WVW and how we personally feel WVW and the Guild Experience would become more exciting and thrilling.
The notes she made had been forwared to the Dev Team, which is a great step however, the majority of the Devs were stacked on areas where they could not receive a proper view of WVW and how things could be done better for WVW in general. In my eyes, that is a waste of time and thus the program failed. We and Im pretty sure [dF] were able to provide great insights, but we are a minority.
Furthermore, discussions that should have been happening after the program, did not happen. You’d think, after the program a bunch of topics would be kick-started to have a talk about. Obviously, none of us here expect anything to be implemented within a month but a talk and more transparancy that should be happening now, simply isn’t. Instead, ArenaNet is continueing to fail with talks about the current CDIs that are not helping WVW in any way. Raids are great for those who’d like em, but why focus on PVE CDI’s after such an important and innovative step as Adopt-A-Dev? Wouldn’t it make more sense to continue to maintain focus on WVW and go from there, as the experiences from WVW are still fresh in the Devs memories?
Guess we’d never know, however, as I got some time I will write a couple of proper suggestion topics now, to see if we get any responses. Afterall, I got asked to write down some of the suggestions we made on the forums in proper context. Perhaps we get a response, perhaps it will be locked away for good again.
Have you guys genuinely never seen something come out of a CDI? Have you truly never seen changes that were outlined, discussed, and honed in the forge of the CDI system?
How many times has something rolled out that has really surprised players, and in a good way? “I didn’t even know they were thinking about that” comes up quite often. Or “I saw some talk about this a while back, but didn’t expect to see it in the game.”
Yeah because those updates we have received during 2014 were tremendously huge, weren’t they? If WVW Players should truly be happy with:
- Golem Masteries
- 3 whopping new commander icons
- Siege Disabler
- RIP Quintin Lake
Im not exactly sure where you are going with here, Gaile. Sure, surprise updates are great and all but don’t tell me we should be grateful for these updates in one-years time.
Issues, concerns and requests that have been pointed out since day 1 of the game have been ignored therefore your statement is completely false. Perhaps you are aiming for PVE here but things you summed up definitely did not apply to WVW.
Frankly, I’m not expecting anything from ArenaNet especially after the massively failed Adopt-A-Dev program. It is a shame to see your priorities go to vain.
Would you guys have any interest in the GVG setting which has founded in GW2 by the players? While most Guilds run 20v20, there actually are guilds like mine who would enjoy 10v10 too. Just food for thought.
Nonetheless, great to have you guys in GW2, all the best with forming up. Definitely going to be interesting!
It has been a while since my last proper raiding video. Truth be told, I simply haven’t had the time to make a proper one, cause trying to make something different takes time.
This video takes you in the journey of Visceral Effect over the past 3 weeks. What we have been up to, what we have been facing. Generally always outnumbered but coming strong on top. The harvest was real, the challenge was insane and the mutual respect from both sides was the true sport.
I would like to personally thank all servers we faced, all challenges we came across and all guilds who always come hard and are doing their thing. I’m still having serious fun in Guild Wars 2 right now, despite the massive exodus of players leaving the game.
Hope you enjoy the roleplay in the beginning and end. As always, we love our roleplay!
More and more, ArenaNet is implementing / changing things with it’s motivation ‘’ For the new players ’’. Yet, those who spend tons of Gems and an insane amount of time in the game since the start and before that, basically get shown the door.
It really is a shame ArenaNet is burning their own bridges for focussing on the new players rather than those who have been here up untill now. Once again with this Gemstore thing, which is only a tool for making even more money.
Why would you be the best guild, cause you capped x-amount of towers that week. Nobody really cares about that? Nonetheless, rankings are toxic anyways, brings the worst out of people.
GVGs are pretty much alive and taking off in the EU. Sure, gaps are high right now, top guilds lost a lot of guys too but things are being rebuild. While it never will get back to the stage it once was, its good to see thing still going on.
I support any guild picking up the pace and do more than mindless blobbing. Its a good start after all the kitten got real imo.
bump!
15charlimit
Just wondering regarding the footage that has been sent. I send my World Versus World raid footage (RAW files as per guidelines) to the provided e-mail address although, it has been a few weeks without any word on that. What is actually being done with the footage and when would we be able to see a result?
The goal of the initiative was to get a good picture of the state of the game in its entirety. With the approach that is documented so far, they chose to see the “puffy clouds and butterflies” side of WvW and not the dark sides and problems we so often talked about here on the forums.
Im pretty sure they realized the state of the game. Atleast 2 guilds disbanded where Devs joined and those were pretty important ones in the GVG scene too. We explained it all and why to Jessica which definitely opened her eyes. Some talks we had were harsh, especially from my end due the limited time they are residing in due other important games launching or getting into an Alpha-Phase.
However, topics are actually being read that are posted here. Especially topics whom have concerns to the game and need improvements. Though, topics that are rude or plain rants/complaints are often being ignored as Anet values constructive feedback and critism, no whiney schoolkid drama apparently.
The fact she was able to mention several topics I either forgot about or being big is something that rings a bell. It shows the Developers actually read and discuss proper constructed posts which is a good thing. Now, as an induvidual player I was rather disapointed as I’m not playing the game like the most players due (the whole coverage wars / PPT / Siege Heroes thing) – which may again alarm some people here to say Devs joined a wrong guild.
However, with the current decline in GVGs and competition, I felt it was somewhat my obligation to represent the competitive scene of the game, which is GVGs and general fights on the battlefield and how to balance that. While that will be coming to the game, Anets main priority right now is working / fixing on the Population Imbalances, Troll Griefing and other topics you have been discussing here. It is a let down for me and truthfully something that had to be addressed 1,5 years ago. But hey, for the future playes who will remain in this game and love those things it will be a good thing no? Sadly, everything being released from this point is too late, as I’ve been saying in the discussions we had during the adopt-a-dev program. The competition and guilds that created the competition will never return, sadly.
#salty
If I get confirmation regarding making our QA Sessions with Jessica public and the GW2 Playerbase are interested, I wouldn’t mind summing it up and providing a giant overview of what we talked about, Anet’s stance and things which are being considered in the woodwork.
It’s always easy to jump the gun and while I personally see the state of the game grim (mainly due the lack of competition, players burned out), it did show Devs do care more about the competitive WvW side than you think. And Im not talking about those PPT Heroes Activities which no one cares about.
Visceral Effect had a DEV (Jessica Boettinger) for the past 4 weeks on Europe. Despite the timezone differences, she did join several of our raids where we raid between 18 ~ 22 guys. We as a guild, focus mainly on openfield fights, scrims and GVGs and definitely showed her how we play WVW and not karma trains/ppt crap.
We had several talks on how to improve WVW on a guild basis with fights, instead of crap nobody really cares about. Will there come anything from it? Probably not, however Devs did go through the hassle to find guilds that do something differently than the good ol’ karma trains.
Proposal Overview
The Guild Halls Concept – Upgrading & Personalizing
Goal of Proposal
Providing an incentive to play as a guild, build up a sense of reward and activities to work towards to as a guild. They have to provide you a feeling in sense of accomplishment that puts your Guild in an unique light. Possibly even boasting about it.
Proposal Functionality
Obtaining a Guild Hall should be relatively easy. They can be bought with Gems or perhaps unlocked through the Upgrade Panel in the Guild Tab. For instance, you could purchase a Guild Halls with;
- Gems
- Influence
- Merits
- Mix of Influence and Merits
- Crafting Materials
- Mix from all of the above
However, obtaining the Halls means it starts out as a small default house. Its shaping, its size and ‘touch’ will change over time, depending on your guilds achievements. This will provide the Halls with character whereas you can clearly see the differences between guilds. In the end, guilds want to be unique, they want to be known for their achievements in the game and provide prestige for the guild.
In the end, it would be rather unfair if this 5 man guild that barely plays but does a speed dungeon run once a while has the same massive keep like this guild that frequently plays WvW together with a 20man roster and succeed in killing masses of players. It should therefore be clear, that the more active a guild is, the better the guild plays and the more achievements the guild obtains the more awesome its Halls become. Certain status from the outside but also inside.
Furthermore, Guild Halls are able to be upgraded and provided with personal character. Each segment of the game will provide different rewards and character. For instance, you could get a great throne for PVPing, awesome chairs for PVEing and amazing furniture for playing WvW. Also, Halls are able to grow overtime. As said, you start off with a small house but along the way with Guild Activities such as WvW, you are able to significantly improve your Halls towards a big keep with flags that show off your Guild Banner. A small breakdown of potential upgrades are summed up below;
- Furniture
- Custom Items (being crafted for instance)
- Size of the Halls
- Objects
- Flags
- Statues
Having items you can either win by achievements, playing as a guild together or being able to be crafted will provide a long term goal for a guild. They can work towards it together and truly show off their progression in the game. It will make the guild unique and it will show dedication from the guild.
In the end, it is very important that there is a sense of progressing with the Halls. Things such as furniture and size that is able to be improved while playing with your Guild Members. Below is a breakdown for examples that can provide you certain rewards for your Guild Halls. Items, growth, size and so forth.
PVE – Running Dungeons / Killing Teq / Worm / Fractals / Guild Missions
PVP – tPVP Guild Teams / PVP Kills / Wins / Lv80 Rank Purchases
WVW – Objective Caps / Objective Defending / Dolly Kills / Player Kills
GVG – Rankings / Wins / Win-Streak / Points to purchase
Associated Risks
The risks might be that Casual Players or fair weather warriors will become upset, as they cannot get the Halls they’d like to have which a strong guild has. Although, seeing this game lacks the sense of progression as a guild, being unique and the lack of actual rewards and achievements as a guild, it should be very important that guilds can have that progression and the sense of rewards.
We are currently recruiting;
- Guardians
- Necromancers
- Warriors
Apply on our website; http://www.visceraleffect.com
Back to the top!
Guild Name: Visceral Effect
Guild Tag: [vE]
Guild Website: http://www.visceraleffect.com
Match History: http://www.visceraleffect.com/gvg.html
Leader: Grotesk The Reaper
Officers: Resouled.5614 / Imperator totius Sylvari.9164 / Rennie.3659 / Wolfington.5406 / Turpix.1254
Server: Kodash [DE]
ATTN: Prospective Members!
Visceral Effect [vE] has recently been founded with the goal to compete on the highest level of raiding and GVG. With a strong core of dedicated competitive gamers with high knowledge about the game, professions and raiding, we are working towards the goal of high quality gaming. We strive for perfection of your class, to improve yours and the guilds in general ability to improve and thus making a statement in the World versus World and GVG scene.
We are raiding 6 times a week, as a closed guild raid. There are plenty of Theory Crafting sessions with members, be it on TeamSpeak or on our forums. Furthermore, do we strive to get atleast 2 to 3 scrims a week, depending on the matchup and it’s competitive it delivers.
Last but not least, Visceral Effect houses competitive, skilled and experienced commanders whom have been going around for a long time in the scene.
- A strong dedicated, experienced and skilled core of gamers raiding on a daily basis.
- GvG matches that go beyond the regular playstyle.
- Your personal improvement in Guild Wars 2, your profession knowledge and gaming in general.
- High experienced, skilled and knowledged Commanders and Directors
- An unique oppertunity to be part of a team, conquering on the battlefield.
- Exciting raids that challenge and trigger you to play on your Triple-A.
- An experience that will stay with you forever.
- Able to attend raids.
- Above average skill in PvP and knowledge about your class (we do not want to go back to basics).
- Microphone needed to talk on TeamSpeak.
- Dedication, the right mindset and being a go-getter.
- Professional attitude with regards to the squad and raids.
- The will to improve yourself with and without the squad.
Obviously, we understand you are curious about the squad in action. Below are a couple of videos showcasing what we are up to, how we work and what you can expect from Visceral Effect upon joining.
15v15 [vE] vs [CoN]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihTeN0WZQ8
15v15 [vE] vs [NR]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1gdC6sIMaY
20v20 [vE] vs [DOOM]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2gcf2Rrhv0
15v15 [vE] vs [icU]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXtoblsgVo
We are Visceral Effect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qvar8d8LU
Raiding Video 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_cxamb-Tk
Raiding Video 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mhN-zJilk
Visceral Effect [vE] One Team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km-BY5GoaW8
We are most looking forward to an application from you soon. We can certain guarantee amazing fun, crazy times and most likely one of your most epic raiding experiences. Truth be told, ensure to only apply to our squad if you can truly commit to what is expected from you, in order not to waste both of our times.
Best regards,
Visceral Effect
We are currently recruiting Guardians to strengthen our team! Apply now @ http://www.visceraleffect.com
Guild Name: Visceral Effect
Guild Tag: [vE]
Guild Website: http://www.visceraleffect.com
Match History: http://www.visceraleffect.com/gvg.html
Leader: Grotesk The Reaper
Officers: Resouled.5614 / Rennie.3659 / Wolfington.5406 /
Server: Kodash [DE]
ATTN: Prospective Members!
Visceral Effect [vE] has recently been founded with the goal to compete on the highest level of raiding and GVG. With a strong core of dedicated competitive gamers with high knowledge about the game, professions and raiding, we are working towards the goal of high quality gaming. We strive for perfection of your class, to improve yours and the guilds in general ability to improve and thus making a statement in the World versus World and GVG scene.
We are raiding 6 times a week, as a closed guild raid. There are plenty of Theory Crafting sessions with members, be it on TeamSpeak or on our forums. Furthermore, do we strive to get atleast 2 to 3 scrims a week, depending on the matchup and it’s competitive it delivers.
Last but not least, Visceral Effect houses competitive, skilled and experienced commanders whom have been going around for a long time in the scene.
- A strong dedicated, experienced and skilled core of gamers raiding on a daily basis.
- GvG matches that go beyond the regular playstyle.
- Your personal improvement in Guild Wars 2, your profession knowledge and gaming in general.
- High experienced, skilled and knowledged Commanders and Directors
- An unique oppertunity to be part of a team, conquering on the battlefield.
- Exciting raids that challenge and trigger you to play on your Triple-A.
- An experience that will stay with you forever.
- Able to attend raids.
- Above average skill in PvP and knowledge about your class (we do not want to go back to basics).
- Microphone needed to talk on TeamSpeak.
- Dedication, the right mindset and being a go-getter.
- Professional attitude with regards to the squad and raids.
- The will to improve yourself with and without the squad.
Obviously, we understand you are curious about the squad in action. Below are a couple of videos showcasing what we are up to, how we work and what you can expect from Visceral Effect upon joining.
15v15 [vE] vs [CoN]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RihTeN0WZQ8
15v15 [vE] vs [NR]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1gdC6sIMaY
20v20 [vE] vs [DOOM]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2gcf2Rrhv0
15v15 [vE] vs [icU]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXtoblsgVo
We are Visceral Effect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2qvar8d8LU
Raiding Video 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i_cxamb-Tk
Raiding Video 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mhN-zJilk
Visceral Effect [vE] One Team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km-BY5GoaW8
We are most looking forward to an application from you soon. We can certain guarantee amazing fun, crazy times and most likely one of your most epic raiding experiences. Truth be told, ensure to only apply to our squad if you can truly commit to what is expected from you, in order not to waste both of our times.
Best regards,
Visceral Effect
(edited by Grotesque.6480)
Hey everyone!
Thank you all for stepping up to volunteer for this program.
I am pleased to announce that I have been taken in by an EU guild on Kodash. I’m excited to embark on my new WvW journey, and experiencing the Fall Tournament in my new home, with Visceral Effect.
I’d like to give a big thanks to the vE guild for adopting me. I’m thrilled to have an opportunity to participate in the tournament from an EU guild’s perspective. I will miss my guilds on NSP (and I’ll try to hop back over from time to time to say hello while EU is sleeping), but I very much look forward to the feedback and experiences we will all share through this initiative. Together, we’ll make a better WvW!
Much wuv,
Wubbuffet
We are thrilled having you with us Jessica! Lets do this! We will make sure those evil rams won’t get anywhere near you this time around <3
ded gaem much?
2: You list your number 1 topic and the one with the must number of votes wins.
- Guild Halls
GVG is ded in EU too. Everyone claims to have their members in holiday while its nearing the end of August. The last awesome fights we had were back on the lower tiers against LaG / Dius and dF. Rest is not even worth mentioning unless you call the [GH] blob meta a GVG lulz
There are some new bloods rising, some learning the ropes but only want to practice against guilds they can actually one-shot. The thrill from back in the days is gone imo. Once [RS] returns to the field, it surely going to be great but nothing like it used to be with so many guilds dieing out.
Sad day for GW2. gaem ded
(edited by Grotesque.6480)
The sad thing from all of this, is that even after an extensive CDI between the Anet staff and the players, this ‘improvement’ for the commander tag does not even come close.
Some here are completely overlooking the real problem. Yeah, a coloured tag for 300g is outragious. But aren’t you even more disapointed due the fact that the minor colour change does not solve kitten at all? That its not even something we wanted? What about Guild Tags and Tags able to hide for a Squad or Guild Members only?
Sorry but after 2 years while this game has been running, various feedback topics and even a CDI, I truly wonder what kind of kitten staff is running the game we are currently playing and paid for.
Incompetence. Rediculous.
(edited by Grotesque.6480)
Here are a couple of videos from my perspective with my guild from the past months.
Here are a couple of videos from my perspective with my guild from the past months.
Wondering what has been done with the gathered information. The lag is still present and seems nothing has been done about it yet.
While our roster is pretty much sorted, we are still looking for the following classes to recruit for our team;
- 2x Shoutheal Warrior
- 1x DPS Warrior
- 2x Guardian
Apply now @ http://www.visceraleffect.com or pm me ingame @ Grotesk The Reaper for more info.
Peace
This game ain’t esports like many GvGers seem to act like ego maniacs with their attitudes.
people can play WvW as they want because it is not limited to people who just want to play WvW in a way they prefer.
Contradicting much? It has nothing to do with the group of players and guilds thinking it’s an esport or anything of the likes. If they thought about it like that, those would end up playing DOTA or Starcraft.
It is exactly how you put it, they play it in the way they prefer to play the game. They are GVG Enthusiasts and enjoy to compete with one another as WVW offers that type of play.
Pretty narrow-minded thinking Rubio..
Aaand send back to the wasteland.
Good work on the website Prometheus!
Amazing how ArenaNet kittens up even more. Provide infractions to their most loyal players. Done with this aswell. Its been ages since we’ve heard anything from the Devs. Just a word out would be great, but as others said in this topic too, we have yet to see something being done with all the suggestions for WVW, let alone a GVG area.
The game is dead, the GVG community is wearing thin. Enjoy while it lasts folks..
Still recruiting fresh meat to strengthen our team!
- Necromancer
- Staff Elementalists
- Guardians
Apply @ http://www.visceraleffect.com or pm me ingame for info! Also, here is a video from one of our raids this week; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuDd3YgUBtw
Still recruiting fresh meat to strengthen our team!
- Worker Warriors
- Necromancer
- Staff Elementalists
- Guardians
Apply @ http://www.visceraleffect.com or pm me ingame for info! Also, here is a video from one of our raids this week; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuDd3YgUBtw
We are still welcoming new fresh meat to the server. Be it a casual or a hardcore player, an experienced or something with the ambition to command, GVG or PPT Guilds, you are more than welcome!
Aurora Glade comes with a powerful friendly community, a zero-latency and 24uptime TeamSpeak Server (where you can even obtain your own guild channel if needed!) and great open mic raids.
Tired of Que’s? Tired of finding an active Borderland with a decent Commander? Check out Aurora Glade!
Definitely support the idea. Being able to GVG any guild during any matchup would be great and thus, spice up the game again.
Though, I honestly doubt ArenaNet is ever going to go with something to such an extend. I very well remember the interview with RPGamer where the devs acted like complete kittens when the question about GVG was brought up.
We are currently recruiting;
- Worker Warriors
- Necromancer
- Staff Elementalists
- Guardians
Apply @ http://www.visceraleffect.com or pm me ingame for info!
Have you PVPd on your Necromancer? Will send you a PM / mail ingame for a chat. Meanwhile, check out our website: http://www.visceraleffect.com
Also one of our recent raid vids; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPiektmnGMI
And one of our recent GVGs; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXtoblsgVo
Full GVG Match history: http://www.visceraleffect.com/gvg.html
(edited by Grotesque.6480)
Bump for [vE]; they’re a great guild!
Cheers Shino! Thank you for the kind words
— We are still looking for new blood to strengthen our team. We also launched our website yesterday, which is finally up and running after some hard work. Make sure to check it out @ http://www.visceraleffect.com
Great and friendly server. Moved here during the league as Gold League was definitely not something I wanted to be in with Visceral Effect. There are no queue’s except on EB at times when some heat battles are going on. Even then, the Queue won’t be longer than a minute or 5.
As for Guilds who focus on GVGing like mine, it is a blessing to be at. The Obisidian Sanctum is barely occupied and even if 2 GVGs happen at the same time (server side that is), there are always good agreements to be made to work around it. We got a couple of great guilds running on AG and certainly been rising hard again the past weeks. We as a server do aim to stay in the Silver League tiers, however, a great variety of matches (apart from Anets glorious League system)
Give it a try!
Currently looking for Elementalists. Apply @ http://www.visceraleffect.com
Also, new videos adding in the first post.
(edited by Grotesque.6480)
Looking for some new bloods! Currently recruiting:
- Warrior
- Guardian
- Necromancer
- Elementalist
So is there any gvg ranking site? I dident play since mid january and want to see which guilds are atill alive and playing gvg.
No rankings, luckily. Although a list is compiled @ http://www.gw2wvw.net/gvg . Furthermore, keep an eye on reddit / the wvw forums regarding videos and announcements.
Still a few spots open for recruitment. Also, here is one of our latest videos providing an impression of our raids.
Desolation better get their kitten together. I want my rewards!
On a serious note, still associated with Deso, although I certainly don’t mind that :P