Guild Wars 2

Epidemix Revenge.4862:

Summed up:

There is no condition meta.

Condis are virtually non-existent in PvE

Condis are not overpowered, and in fact may very well be underpowered and underrepresented in soloQ spvp

Condis are underperforming and underrepresented in team Q spvp

Condis are insta cleansed in blob/zerg/large group WvW and rendered useless

Condis may be overpowered in 1v1 dueling. The game is not balanced around dueling.

Condis may be overpowered in small group/solo roaming WvW. Well… kitten happens. Easy fix though. Nerf Plexity and kittencan condi duration +- food

The condi meta is REAL, are you an engineer main perhaps?

Zacchary.6183:

Kukchi.6173:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Nurf warrior.

Proof.

No valid argument. This thread is about thieves not warriors. Please leave this thread with your troll arguments.

This thread is a troll. You main a warrior. Unless you are literally using your face to play you should have zero problems with a thief.

I do not main warrior, I actually main mesmer, but I play all other classes as well.

Shockwave.1230:

Kukchi.6173:

alchemyst.2165:

It looks like the OP doesn’t know much about the thief class. You say you have a thief, either you’re lying or it’s a lvl 2 thief with 3 hours spent on it.

Honestly I’ve heard the “I play a thief so it needs fix” argument too many times, people need some more originality coming up with arguments for thief nerfs.

Seems to me People who hate the truth only hear hate when the truth is spoken. I have played my thief for over 200 hours i will even provide a screenshot of my character for the non believers. I am pointing our fundamental flaws in this class and i am tired of all those cheese thieves with no skill abusing their spammable skills. http://i62.tinypic.com/2ujku4w.jpg Here is proof that I thief.

Credibility isn’t necessary when there’s an encompassing logically sound argument being presented. Initiative is not flawed simply because it doesn’t offer an overall advantage to the thief. It simply complements the play style of having to quickly react and predict your opposition’s decisions .

You’ll notice that a thief can use significantly less weapon skills 2 thru 4 over time than all other profs. At this level of design that is the main balancing factor. Any perceived problems with the thief are lower level concepts that should be dealt with on a per skill/trait basis.

increasing initiative cost on skills is a good way to start. Increasing the cooldown on some utilities and reducing the teleport range of some skills might offer some balance.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Nurf warrior.

Proof.

No valid argument. This thread is about thieves not warriors. Please leave this thread with your troll arguments.

Epidemix Revenge.4862:

This is from a mediocre mmr spvp perspective.

No need for this boon. There is no condition meta. Its all Hambows, Turret Engies, Lichmancers/Minionmancers, Phantasm Mesmers, Bunker/Med guards, S/D thieves, D/D eles and …ok yeah Rangers are all condi from my experience. Not to say that there aren’t condition specs out there. I see the occasional unique snowflake S/S LB Warrior and PU Mesmer though the latter is a negative for whatever team its on. I have seen a decent amount of spike condi thieves and aids necros too. But honestly its like 75% Power since 4/15 from what I have seen.

Spvp the minigame has condi meta. hambow is a joke.

Black Teagan.9215:

Kukchi.6173:

A thief can catch up to a warrior no problem.
Thieves are king of landspeed.

Only over short distances.
The bigger the distance, the better/faster is the warrior.

USE A Shortbow, problem solved. Thieves are still king of landspeed and can cover impassable terrain at that with their teleports. What is impassable terrain you ask? Top of hills or cliffs. Stuff other classes need to go around and cant just cut through. Thieves can cover long distances and catch up to warriors. I have seen it happen in wvw and minigame spvp.

alchemyst.2165:

It looks like the OP doesn’t know much about the thief class. You say you have a thief, either you’re lying or it’s a lvl 2 thief with 3 hours spent on it.

Honestly I’ve heard the “I play a thief so it needs fix” argument too many times, people need some more originality coming up with arguments for thief nerfs.

Seems to me People who hate the truth only hear hate when the truth is spoken. I have played my thief for over 200 hours i will even provide a screenshot of my character for the non believers. I am pointing our fundamental flaws in this class and i am tired of all those cheese thieves with no skill abusing their spammable skills. http://i62.tinypic.com/2ujku4w.jpg Here is proof that I thief.

Ihales.3820:

Dear OP

Kukchi.6173:

Seeing how you play mostly warrior and very little of the other classes your opinion is very biased and unwelcome.

Thank you and have a nice day.

I actually have a thief, I think this class needs a fix. Seeing how you are very short sighted and know very little of the other classes your opinion is very biased and unwelcome.

Torment was added why cant this boon be added? If you dont see or understand the power of condition make sure you run a full condition cheese build in spvp the minigame. I faced a whole team of condition users. There was nothing we could do, no amount of condition removal anything we could do to the AOE conditions. GG. Honestly if you still believe that condition is fine, then you are abusing the cheese builds.

If thieves had 1 hp then they would be balanced. But having spammable skills, being able to catch up to any fleeing class and being able to reset fights is not balanced.

A thief can catch up to a warrior no problem. Conditions ignore armour and defence.
Thieves are king of landspeed.

frans.8092:

Kukchi.6173:

I am sorry but you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of teleports and stealth, if you use the evade heal you recover enough initiative.

Uhm, nope. Withdraw does not regenrate initiative.

In addition while in stealth you can trait to regain initiative.

Nope, there is a trait that gives 2 initiative when entering stealth, it does not regenerate initiative while in stealth.

You need to read up, wiki is linked on the top of the page.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Roll_for_Initiative as stated i have acknowledge i made a mistake about that. All the responses to this thread are thieves upset about the issues of their classes being braught up. Initiative needs a rework.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Escapability without anything to target, without stealth and highground to teleport to.

Warrior – GS + S/W, bulls charge.
Thief – D/D, swiftness and shadowstep.
Ele – D/D, teleport and fire GS.
Rangers – GS + S/W
Engineer with perma swiftness, rocket boots and rifle.

Thief is the king of chasing though.

You CANNOT as a warrior out run a thief.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Kukchi.6173:

I feel you are using the term “spam” loosely. Because most of those skill arent spammable and do have high cooldowns. Some are even highly telegraph able.

Loosely, maybe, but many of those things I mentioned are way stronger than PW, especially when PW is used 2 or 3 times in a row, but yet PW is the one that needs to be toned down? =p

Seeing how you play mostly thief and very little of the other classes your opinion is very biased and unwelcome. That is all based on your comments. You can spam PW a lot more than 2 to 3 times. Specially if you are traited into initiative recovery and use the rollback utility. You seem to forget also that stealthing resets a fight in favor of thieves. Especially if the opponent has used their cooldowns. Thieves need a rework with their ability to spam.

Tim.6450:

Kukchi.6173:

I see it a lot. Most engis,necro,thieves run condition meta builds. Yes the condition meta is here. Its just the people that abuse it want to keep it under wraps.

So if you see it a lot then you there are occasion it is lower? So I can be safe to assume that the amount of condition builds in a team should be around 50%~60%. Isn’t that balanced?

Also you only specified three of the 8 classes. What about the other 5? What do they run?

Its not really balanced if you can burst with condition. The number of players switching to condition is probably increasing, since they are realizing they can have ticks of 3k+ and can burst ppl down ignoring toughness and armor. I highly suggest you make other classes and play them out they all have the ability to run condition but those stated above have the highest potential of bringing unbalance to condition play.

Ghostwolf.9863:

Thieves are quite weak overall in PvP, that’s why many are going over to either P/D to join the condispam high survival club or S/D for the dodgespam club, both which are way stronger in combat than other alternatives.

If I could play D/D without getting kitten on by:
Turret spam, minion spam, fear spam, deathlyclaw spam, life blast spam, generic condispam, fellow players from the dodgespam club, 111 spam rangers, CC spam warriors, CC high dmg and heal spam eles, ele AoE spam which deals higher dmg than thieves do single target but AoE, guardians with block and blind spam and high dmg.

Believe me, I would.

I feel you are using the term “spam” loosely. Because most of those skill arent spammable and do have high cooldowns. Some are even highly telegraph able.

Dagins.5163:

We can increase initiative pool and decrease initiative regen, so blindly spamming would be heavily punished, but then thief’s sustained damage would be terrible. That would require increasing damage output – the more initiative you have, the more damage you deal (like trickery’s 5th trait).

Your suggestion of tightening the window of initiative would be a mistake, because it would make this class even more faceroll. Better idea would be removing initiative and giving cooldowns, but it will never happen.

I think the best solution would be slightly increasing initiative cost of some skills, and returning initiative when they successfully land. For example, pistol whip could cost 1 ini more, but if you manage to interrupt a foe, it gives you back 1 ini and has increased damage by 15%.
Black powder costs 1 ini more, returns 1 ini if its shot connects and has longer smoke field duration by 1 sec.
Larcenous strike would be available only if you actually evade an attack with flanking strike, and could steal 2 boons instead of 1.

These are good anti-spam mechanics.

Honestly a slower initiative regain or a higher initiative cost would be nice on those skills and more.

Carighan, has no idea what he talking about. Condition needs to be toned down, its a fact. Getting ticks of 3k+ conditions is wrong.

/closethread warriors have been getting nerfs the last 3 patches. If you think warrior is OP then you haven’t face/played a thief.

Tim.6450:

SonOfKrypton.4357:

We’re playing a different game, honey.

So wait you’re saying that almost every tpvp team/match up has at least 3 players whose main damage type are conditions?

I see it a lot. Most engis,necro,thieves run condition meta builds. Yes the condition meta is here. Its just the people that abuse it want to keep it under wraps.

Carighan.6758:

SonOfKrypton.4357:

Currently, there are more conditions in the game than boons. Arguing that a boon to combat the condition meta is bad for the game has no merit and as far as I am concerned anyone that denies the simple logic I’ve just posed has far more problems than worrying about a condition in a video game.

Again I have to repeat myself from the other thread: What condition-meta?
The total dominance direct damage has in tPvP, WvW and PvE? That’s your condition-meta? If that is the case, then colour me unimpressed.

Have you ever been bursted down by a condition build? If your answer is no then you must be new to the game. Conditions ticking for 3k+ is a bit ridiculous. In addition conditions ignore toughness making armor feel virtually useless. Why does dmg have so much to negate it yet condition dmg does not?

Carighan.6758:

Cygnus.6903:

Cause that glass cannon risks everything, while you are in full dire. And give me that GC build that does 80% of your HP in 2 seconds, ty.

If you are in full dire, your conditions barely tickle targets.

Somehow i feel like this is complete bs.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

Conditions already have so many things going against them, they don’t need to be taken down another notch.

1) 25 cap max (it only takes 2 condi uses to show that both of their dps decrease, or power builds that apply conditions can also lower condi builds dps)
2) 5? stack for duration applications (not really that big of a limitation just listed for completeness)
3) you need more condition damage to actually see any increase in damage (1 power will increase your dps however slightly, but you need 20 condi damage to notice your bleeds doing more damage. Not 100% sure how the game calculates crit hits [does it use fractions or whole numbers only], why I left out precision.)
4) since conditions only tick on whole seconds, condi duration can be useless 2.0s plus 0.9s == 0 dps increase
5) Only 1 real stat directly influences condition damage (2 if you manage to get enough condi duration to get to another whole second) where 3 directly influences direct damage (as for protection – not every class gets protection).
6) As it stands direct damage still does more than condi damage and in a shorter time frame
7) You can cleanse and remove condi’s before they apply their full damage (I’d compare this to the protection boon already. You only have so many cleanses vs. X% uptime of protection/boon striping&stealing)

In open world PvE conditions are laughably underpowered. In dungeons/fractals they really feel the 25 stack limit. In WvW zergs they can be more underpowered than in PvE because players will cleanse and move out of your condi fields plus the cap limit. In smaller WvW groups you can feel the 25 limit stack again. It’s only in PvP where you need to defend/attack a small point that condis can be considered overpowered and some classes have more hard/soft counters to condis than others.

If a full glass cannon can burst 80% of my hp in a second or two (in knights/dire gear), why can’t my conditions be equally dangerous to him?

Edit: stupid pluses == underline.

I dont see how being a bunker condition makes any sense. Being a bunker means you sacrifice dps for sustain. You cant bunker with burst direct dmg. But you can with condition does not make sense. Toughness negates direct dmg what negates condition?

randomfightfan.4091:

Kukchi.6173:

I am sorry but you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of teleports and stealth, if you use the evade heal you recover enough initiative. In addition while in stealth you can trait to regain initiative. Utilities don’t require initiative so the thief wont just be there standing . Also don’t forget about those perma vigor thieves that just dodge for days.

Obviously this one has no idea how thieves work…

Here’s a few things wrong with your statement:
1. Evade heal (withdraw) doesn’t regen initiative. What you are thinking of is (roll for initiative) a utility with a 50s cd that regens 6 initiative. It evades but doesn’t heal.

2. Thief utilities don’t have initiative costs, you are right. Although, neither do yours.

3. If they are using pistol whip, they are not invisible. Also, we only regain 2 initiative when we 1st enter stealth. Any further stealth stacks no longer give initiative.

4. Initiative has absolutely nothing to do with perma vigor thieves. The entirety of our vigor comes from either stealing the boons or from 2 traits. Each trait relies upon using abilities that don’t use initiative.

Please do your research next time you make a QQ thread. I know this is asking a lot but the entirety of the community would appreciate it if you would.

Hello,
I feel like you failed to see my response. This thread is about fixing the issues that thieves have and how initiative needs some rework. If you feel the need to personally attack me then i would suggest sending a private message. I dont think bringing anymore of your toxic comments to this thread is necessary. I might of mistaken myself with the evade heal recovering initiative. But the fact still remains.

Burst condition is stupid.

Carpboy.7145:

Spamming pistol whip and blackpowder eh? Both of which cost 6 initiative in spvp. A thiefs standard ini pool is 12. So 2 pistol whips. Dat spam too OP. meanwhile for the next 5 seconds the thief can do absolutely nothing while you wail on him because he has no initiative

I am sorry but you seem to be forgetting the vast amount of teleports and stealth, if you use the evade heal you recover enough initiative. In addition while in stealth you can trait to regain initiative. Utilities don’t require initiative so the thief wont just be there standing . Also don’t forget about those perma vigor thieves that just dodge for days.

Make a boon that does the same as protection but for conditions? 33% reduction from condi dmg.
Fix

Before new classes are added why not balance the ones we have now. Why add more? It will only make it more complicated. Guardians do everything the dervish did. /endthread

Thief
ele
engi
then warrior

Hello anet,
I implore you to reconsider how initiative works, thieves being able to blind spam and spam pistol whip, is kind of ridiculous in addition to their high mobility. Honestly a slower initiative regain or a higher initiative cost would be nice on those skills and more. It would be a least a step forward to balancing that class.

Zerker stance is fine. In addition it is not an Overpowered skill. Its decent utility that is quite balanced. No fixes needed.If anything needs a fix its stealth.

Form.8741:

Warrior still has OP healing.

Lol get out.

yodog.4208:

THIEVES HAVE LOW TO NO STABILITY ACSESS

Blind>stability.
Teleports>stability
Stealth>stability
Thieves have high to always access to blinds, teleports and stealth.

yolo swaggins.2570:

This thread is not toxic. The OP is asking players who complain about the profession why they believe so when behavior in most parts of the game says otherwise.

And I would like to know too, since after trying one out I am actually seeing more and more where thief players are coming from.

I play thief too and I do not see any validity in what most of these “thief” players are talking about . Thief has been unbalanced for a long time and needs a tone down.

80% of blobs are guardian and warrior? ROFL more like thief, necro, and mesmer.

I agree with OP, in addition this community is slowly becoming like League of legends… toxic. The game is not even fun anymore. Its only a matter of time before gw2 dies with this kind of people patrolling in forum and destroying classes. Really condi is fine? thanks for ruining the game.

DatPieGuy.6540:

Too bad thieves have the base hp of a moa in queensdale.

Got stealth, evades, teleports, and blinds to make up for that.

Xurse.8267:

I seriously don’t mind them nerfing our dmg and stuff, but just give us what they promised for the GS fix will make up for the dmg loss

I do mind them nerfing our dmg and stuff. Frankly everyone should stand up and not let anet just steamroll these nerfs that they don’t even understand themselves.

Rofl Warrior nerfs are fine. This community is poison and is destroying the game. Burst condition damage is fine but not on a warrior. Good thing for ferocity buff. Anet does not know what its doing.
/sarcasm

Overkillengine.6084:

A: No. You are intended to use vitality to soak it instead and the plethora of heals and invulnerability skills that work just as well versus condition damage outside of poison as well as the multitude of condition removal options afforded to each class.

If you stacked toughness and ignored the tools at your disposal with which to handle condition damage, it is your fault you died to a damage type that has a lower peak obtainable dps thanks to the condition caps.

And hey, thanks to the ferocity change there will be a bit less obtainable peak power damage out there so less toughness is needed which means you can now use that new-found flexibility in your stat budget to add in some vitality.

Condition needs a rework, if yo think that peak power needs to be less obtainable. Then condition needs to reworked. Burst condi and condi tank builds are quite silly.

Does toughness reduce condition dmg? With the new ferocity BUFF incoming, less and less people will be using ferocity as a means to being an efficient killer on the battlefield. More people will be rolling conditions, I just want to know if stacking toughness will counter that? What is a viable way to counter condition in this game, SPVP WVW with a stat? Its weird that you can negate direct dmg with stats but you cant with condition dmg.

Thoughness will be a useless stat. Condition dmg is not reduced by it. Everyone will be rolling CONDITIONS after the Ferocity BUFF.

Why play a warrior when guardian does everything better?

rhodoc.2381:

I’m just wondering that;

Isnt this rune unbalanced for those classes that has spammable elite skills like Thief and Warr or maybe other if any. As an elementalist, my only elite would be elemental to use with this rune and it is 180sec total cd. FGS and Tornado is even not a choice.

Dont take this as a qq topic. I really dont know if this is balanced.

What are you crying about now? this rune does not even work in underwater combat? this real issue at hand is conditons and how they need to be reworked.

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

unleashed.8679:

After you spammed in every condition thread, you started your own thread with zero content. congrats.

Most problems with the “condition meta” or “condition burst” are the players themselves, that do not understand how conditions work. And if I would say, you should write down some examples, I could bet, there will be the same, wrong assumptions against conditions like in every thread.
conditions need only one stat, conditions cant be dodged, conditions deal more damage then direct damage, …

I actually had to restart my thread since it was deleted and it had a massive amounts of information.

gemboj.6203:

I’d realle love to hear form Anet, what they think about current state of condition damage.

You wont, all the devs are doing is silently removing all posts about this.

Conditions need a rework, the game is losing its flare more and more. In fact the current condition style game play is atrocious I recall not to long ago people whinning burst damage. But now its just condition burst. Where is the fun in that? Anet you need to rework conditions if you are going to rework crit dmg.

I find people who play asura and claim to be skilled just enjoy handicaps and are not really skillful. I am a proud charr with max height and am a serious wvwer.

Well this needs to be addressed.

1. PU condi Mesmer
2. condi engineer
3. condiThief
4. condi Mesmer
5. condi bunker Ranger
6. condi terror Necro
7. d/p Thief
8. s/f “fresh air” Ele
9. MM Necro
10. medit Guard
11. warrier

fixed.