Guild Wars 2

aimz.6287:

Captain Obvious.6951:

I keep seeing people say “it wouldn’t be unique”. Besides the fact, who even cares about unique when it’s nearly unplayable, it would be the exact opposite of a Thief.

Thief = Weapon skills cost energy, Supplementary skills don’t
Rev = Supplementary skills cost energy, Weapon skills don’t

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.

Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up.

Could you immagine how much kittening there would be on the forums if Thief weapon skills AND supplementary skills cost energy? Well that’s what playing a Rev is like.
Until they fix this class I’ve literally hung it up. that line right there is so true.. people don’t even realize. BUFF IS NEEDED ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE is some other profession player trying to jerk rev off the map of tyria

No, people who are critical of this are not “other professions” necessarily. I’ve put 2000+ hours into rev and I main it in all game modes. People like myself who don’t want weapon energy to be removed don’t want the absolute kittenstorm of balance changes that would have to happen for that to work well.

I don’t want to spend 60+ energy on Jade Winds because all the utilities would need increases in their current costs to compensate for the removal of energy on weapon skills. 45+ energy riposting shadows, 10+ energy heals, 40+ energy Unyielding Anguish. 34 utility skills and 31 weapon skills would have to potentially be adjusted for this change to happen. That is truly massive compared to most of Anets balance patches. No thank you.

In pvp/wvw Revs need to learn to kite more and make careful skill selections to make the most of their energy (same with thief and initiative).

In Pve revs need to understand and accept that if they’re not spamming their energy they’re losing damage (same with thief and initiative).

The devs have stated before that they intend the “legend swap” mechanic to be the main means of energy management. They intentionally balance the class around the ability to constantly get 50 energy every 10 seconds if we need it and they want us to us do this to make the most of the class.

Buran.3796:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

OP is also asking specifically about pve, so pvp/wvw aren’t relevant to this conversation

Ok, fine, but answer this question (because I’m unable to figure from your post): short bow will be or won’t be the main weapon for Renegades in PvE raids?

Shortbow will most definitely not be the main weapon for renegades in raids. However, this is mostly due to the energy system and the lack of rotations based on cooldowns. Thieves only use 1 weapon set for raw dps as well due to this same sort of thing.

Shortbow and bleed duration however are useful in boosting overall dps for condi rev though. It allows condi rev to do things like green circles on VG, clear orbs/turrets/shards on gors/sab/xera, and still do damage while having agony on cairn among other things. The lack of a ranged option before meant that if a condi rev ever had to leave melee it lost a lot of damage and shortbow can be useful to fill that hole a bit.

Buran.3796:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.

I think that Zenith explained it well. The Renegade traitline adds fervor so condi Rev using mace + axe will improve its dps. But the traitline doesn’t synergizes itself with torment burn, chill or even venom: it focused on bleeds.

Bleeds are only provided by the shortbow, and any time you swap from mace + axe to any other weapon (including the shortbow) you dps will damatically fall. The shortbow’s only usable skills are the (weak) auto attack and the #5, the rest are expensive gimmicks which also doesn’t work over not flat terrain; it provides no mobility, defensive or utility skills. The F keys do provide weak skills at high energy cost.

So Renegade looks decent for PvE: chose your Mallyx + Shiro (or Jalis) legends, your mace + axe loadup and enhance your dps with the Renegade traitline. But if you were looking to change your playstyle, or you were interested in using Kalla or the shortbow for PvP, WvW roaming or WvW raids you will hit a wall: they just don’t perform.

The damage from the bleed spirit and the elite spirit is insanely high compared to Shiro or Jalis in group content. On top of that, sure, mace/axe is energy intensive, but it’s partly only energy intensive because the optimal raid rotation right now uses two upkeeps. If you’re not using any upkeeps there is more than enough room to cast the bleed spirit and then pop the elite halfway through your cooldown before legend swap.

On top of that we also get bleeds from geomancy and potentially sigil of earth, so while mace/axe doesn’t inflict bleeding the damage increases will affect those sigils and the bleed spirit, which is still a net gain in terms of dps.

Unless they tone something about Renegade down I’m predicting 35k dps realistic bare minimum.

Renegade needs a bunch of things changed to make it better and less clunky overall, but even if it was released right this second in it’s demo form it would still be a sizeable damage increase due to it’s utilities and traits. They can’t buff it too much, honestly. Condi rev can already pull 32k as it is, realistic. Highest damage on large hitboxes is 37k.

OP is also asking specifically about pve, so pvp/wvw aren’t relevant to this conversation

Kalla is a straight upgrade to Condi Rev in pve. It will be more than fine for Fractals/Raids/Etc. Kalla’s utilities really shine in group content and are far superior to Jalis’s hammers. The hammers actually only add about 3.5k dps by themselves, including crit tormet procs, to the current meta condi rev build (tested it with full meta gear/realistic everything).

So it’s a good choice. This forum is just exceptionally critical, but it’s really only about 10-20 people repeating the same complaints over and over again. There was community stigma with revenant for awhile because it fell out of speed clear meta for a time, but that stigma is going away. Looking at the raw numbers there isn’t any reason for people to be so critical against revenant anymore.

If you want to play revenant, have fun with it and spend the time to learn it so that you can excel with it

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Just posting to say I highly disagree with this idea. The class is fine as it is right now. It’s useful in every. single. game mode. at the moment even if it’s not used for most speedclears.

The profession plays fine and energy management as it is now is fine. It requires a patient and precise playstyle that takes a lot to master and that is totally fine. If rev doesn’t work for you guys mechanically, find a class that does.

As a rev main I don’t want the class to become overpowered again and then suffer another 2 years of nerfs. It’s already top tier in pvp and wvw when played expertly and that caused a lot of heartache for pve revs. Removing energy costs on weapon skills will cause way more issues than it will solve. And same with adding a way to get more energy.

To quote a great man: you’re not thinking fourth dimensionally.

PoF specs will completely outclass and counter Revenant in every game mode and Renegade is not enough to make up for that.

Maybe Revenant as it was before 2 years of nerf would have been decent in PoF too.

Considering I was clowning all the new specs besides Scourge with Renegade during the beta weekend, even against top tier players, makes me think you’re wrong about this…perhaps you need to git gud?

And considering you can’t see how Renegade will be fantastic in pve makes me wonder how much time you’ve actually spent theorycrafting with the class.

megilandil.7506:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Faux Play.6104:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

The best solution it to allow AT matches to count towards your rating and make ranked queue matches solo only. The other thing I would do is add a group play feature to the AT so it is like the world cup first round. You play all three other teams in your group. Top 2 advance.

I don’t disagree, but would you also be open to introducing an additional ranked queue for teams? 2-5 players.
This doesn’t change anything you just stated, but also adds the ability for groups of friends to play together with other groups of friends.

I’m personally willing to wait through longer queue times if it means I can play a multiplayer game with my friends.

I don’t really don’t see a population for a team only ladder. Casuals will just get a beat down and quit. Currently there is unranked for casual team PvP. There are the ATs for upper end 5 man.

Not relevant. Ranked, competitive pvp is not casual by nature. They have plenty of pvp content available to them via unranked, quick plays, private servers etc.
Ranked pvp is literally for people who take their pvp more seriously.

If they don’t want to queue for it then they don’t have to.

You can’t make this argument without information/data to back it up. Unless you happen to have dev access to Anet analytics, you can only speculate.

None of that matters though; it’s a system a huge amount of people ask for regularly in game and on these forums.
If you don’t want to take part in it, then don’t. But otherwise why are you wasting your time trying to control what other people want to enjoy?

I look at the following:

• team que was voted out nearly 80% to 20%.
• The amount of teams that enter ATs is very small. I haven’t seen any more than 32 teams.
• Team arena in GW1 was dead from the start of the game.

PvP dev time would be better spent on things that benefit more people.

They should go back to solo/duo and mixed queue regardless of population. I stopped playing ranked primarily due to the fact that I can’t really play with friends anymore (never really had enough for a full team and it took them forever to add ATs so the “team” we did have kind of split up). Solo/duo is stressful for a variety of reasons and there needs to be an outlet for groups of 3+ that isn’t unranked or ATs.

If you are worried about stress queueing with 2, I’m not sure how queuing with one more person helps. I would think hotjoin or unranked would be a better fit than ranked. Also you can queue more than two in ranked in between seasons.

There’s far more toxicity in solo/duo than there ever was in mixed queue. I don’t feel the need to get berated by teammates every few games or have them go AFK 30seconds into a match because we lost the initial mid fight. Or better yet have them throw for someone on the other team. Match manipulation is far more rampant than it used to be (season 1-4 had it’s issues, too, but that was mostly related to how the match maker selected teams and got abused that way).

With more people you can control who you get on your team and therefore reduce the possibility of having issues like these happen. In solo duo you have no idea what you’re going to get and that in and of itself is stressful.

Telling me to go play hotjoin or unranked isn’t the same thing in the least and is a little bit insulting actually. It isn’t a viable solution when we had a perfectly fine system before that could have been improved on just by splitting the queue. There are tons of people like me who pretty much stopped playing ranked due to the solo/duo changes. Pretty much everyone I pvped with feels that way.

the form of controling the afkrs problem is not letting you chose your teammates is making a real report and punishment politic of afkrs trolls and bad spormanship teams corrupts the personal skill ranking system shadowing under your social skill to make more gaming skilled friends

Holy god punctuation is a thing.

There are two ways to help prevent afks:

1) punish it more severely. This helps after the fact and does nothing to prevent it in the moment.

2) Let you choose your teammates. The more people on your team that know you the less likely you are to run into afks. This is THE MOST EFFECTIVE way to prevent afks on your team.

No one is suggeting we get rid of solo/duo. We just want an option to have mixed/team queue again.

Faux Play.6104:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

The best solution it to allow AT matches to count towards your rating and make ranked queue matches solo only. The other thing I would do is add a group play feature to the AT so it is like the world cup first round. You play all three other teams in your group. Top 2 advance.

I don’t disagree, but would you also be open to introducing an additional ranked queue for teams? 2-5 players.
This doesn’t change anything you just stated, but also adds the ability for groups of friends to play together with other groups of friends.

I’m personally willing to wait through longer queue times if it means I can play a multiplayer game with my friends.

I don’t really don’t see a population for a team only ladder. Casuals will just get a beat down and quit. Currently there is unranked for casual team PvP. There are the ATs for upper end 5 man.

Not relevant. Ranked, competitive pvp is not casual by nature. They have plenty of pvp content available to them via unranked, quick plays, private servers etc.
Ranked pvp is literally for people who take their pvp more seriously.

If they don’t want to queue for it then they don’t have to.

You can’t make this argument without information/data to back it up. Unless you happen to have dev access to Anet analytics, you can only speculate.

None of that matters though; it’s a system a huge amount of people ask for regularly in game and on these forums.
If you don’t want to take part in it, then don’t. But otherwise why are you wasting your time trying to control what other people want to enjoy?

I look at the following:

• team que was voted out nearly 80% to 20%.
• The amount of teams that enter ATs is very small. I haven’t seen any more than 32 teams.
• Team arena in GW1 was dead from the start of the game.

PvP dev time would be better spent on things that benefit more people.

They should go back to solo/duo and mixed queue regardless of population. I stopped playing ranked primarily due to the fact that I can’t really play with friends anymore (never really had enough for a full team and it took them forever to add ATs so the “team” we did have kind of split up). Solo/duo is stressful for a variety of reasons and there needs to be an outlet for groups of 3+ that isn’t unranked or ATs.

If you are worried about stress queueing with 2, I’m not sure how queuing with one more person helps. I would think hotjoin or unranked would be a better fit than ranked. Also you can queue more than two in ranked in between seasons.

There’s far more toxicity in solo/duo than there ever was in mixed queue. I don’t feel the need to get berated by teammates every few games or have them go AFK 30seconds into a match because we lost the initial mid fight. Or better yet have them throw for someone on the other team. Match manipulation is far more rampant than it used to be (season 1-4 had it’s issues, too, but that was mostly related to how the match maker selected teams and got abused that way).

With more people you can control who you get on your team and therefore reduce the possibility of having issues like these happen. In solo duo you have no idea what you’re going to get and that in and of itself is stressful.

Telling me to go play hotjoin or unranked isn’t the same thing in the least and is a little bit insulting actually. It isn’t a viable solution when we had a perfectly fine system before that could have been improved on just by splitting the queue. There are tons of people like me who pretty much stopped playing ranked due to the solo/duo changes. Pretty much everyone I pvped with feels that way.

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

Actiondan.8146:

Faux Play.6104:

The best solution it to allow AT matches to count towards your rating and make ranked queue matches solo only. The other thing I would do is add a group play feature to the AT so it is like the world cup first round. You play all three other teams in your group. Top 2 advance.

I don’t disagree, but would you also be open to introducing an additional ranked queue for teams? 2-5 players.
This doesn’t change anything you just stated, but also adds the ability for groups of friends to play together with other groups of friends.

I’m personally willing to wait through longer queue times if it means I can play a multiplayer game with my friends.

I don’t really don’t see a population for a team only ladder. Casuals will just get a beat down and quit. Currently there is unranked for casual team PvP. There are the ATs for upper end 5 man.

Not relevant. Ranked, competitive pvp is not casual by nature. They have plenty of pvp content available to them via unranked, quick plays, private servers etc.
Ranked pvp is literally for people who take their pvp more seriously.

If they don’t want to queue for it then they don’t have to.

You can’t make this argument without information/data to back it up. Unless you happen to have dev access to Anet analytics, you can only speculate.

None of that matters though; it’s a system a huge amount of people ask for regularly in game and on these forums.
If you don’t want to take part in it, then don’t. But otherwise why are you wasting your time trying to control what other people want to enjoy?

I look at the following:

• team que was voted out nearly 80% to 20%.
• The amount of teams that enter ATs is very small. I haven’t seen any more than 32 teams.
• Team arena in GW1 was dead from the start of the game.

PvP dev time would be better spent on things that benefit more people.

They should go back to solo/duo and mixed queue regardless of population. I stopped playing ranked primarily due to the fact that I can’t really play with friends anymore (never really had enough for a full team and it took them forever to add ATs so the “team” we did have kind of split up). Solo/duo is stressful for a variety of reasons and there needs to be an outlet for groups of 3+ that isn’t unranked or ATs.

I’m all for this proposal. I played hundreds of games throughout season 1-4 with 2-3 of my friends (we barely ever queued as a full 5) and it was a blast. There were nights we won a ton and there were nights we lost a ton. My win ratio during seasons from back then wasn’t any higher or lower than it is now, it was actually slightly lower. So this whole “5 man vs solo q” thing is generally bunk.

Anyway, season 5 rolled around and the community voted to axe mixed queue and I pretty much stopped playing pvp with my pvp friends. I hate solo/duo. It’s awful. It’s not fun. I tried it but I pretty much gave up on ranked since. Sucks really. ATs aren’t the answer either, as they’re limiting and farmed by top tier players. Since I don’t have a solid group anymore due to the loss of Mixed Queue, ATs are incredibly hit or miss and usually end up in a harsh loss 1-2 games in. This is probably the case for most players that aren’t top 1%.

Bring back solo/mixed queue please. I miss the ability to queue with my friends.

narcx.3570:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

That’s an outdated opinion. Rev can do good damage in pve and is good/great in both pvp and wvw. A few classes can do more damage than rev in pve, however it’s only by a few thousand dps, not some significant difference. Also renegade is a literal substantial dps increase for both power and condi revenant in pve. The class isn’t perfect but its certainly not awful and it’s more than viable, just not used for most speedclears.

The thing is—even before Rev got all the recent condi love—Power Jalis/Glint was ALSO only a few thousand behind the other power classes on small hitbox, and nobody wanted them then just as nobody wants them now.

So things haven’t really changed THAT much for revs… They’re still a few K behind the other classes… Which is fine. And while I agree that it’s certainly viable to take a Rev, I gotta say that it should not be your only class. Playing Rev is a luxury to do with friends/guildies or once people in the raid scene know who you are and trust you to not screw up the fight.

But telling some guy that making a Rev is a “viable” choice for raiding is just leading him down a path of extreme frustration since OBVIOUSLY he’s going to be trying to pug most of his kills. If he had a guild to raid with he wouldn’t even have to ask a question like that on the forums… :P Why steer someone down the dark, infuriating path of not finding groups and having to constantly hear, “Ummm, got any other classes?” Just to prove a point and be anti-meta? Poor form.

I said “screw the meta” after revenant fell out of meta and I made it work. If I did, others can. If not, it’s on them. And honestly anyone who doesn’t multiclass at least a bit is screwing themselves, but to say you can’t main a revenant is ludicrous. There are options, people just need to not be lazy and take them. Tired of all the revenant mains QQing when they could step up and make it work for them. Some of us have.

Fractured.3928:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Fractured.3928:

Swiftly.2385:

I am just returning to the game. Haven’t played since right before HOT. Was thinking of leveling a Rev. but this discussion makes me think it might not be worth it as I am looking for a good all around class with good mobility. (Something that can function in all aspects of the game depending on the spec) Was trying to choose between Rev, Mesmer, Ele, or Guardian. I know, I know much different play styles.

Is it even worth it at this point to level up a Rev in anticipation of maining it in POF? Or would the other classes I listed be better choices?

This is not a troll, I am just honestly trying to decide and having a tough time.

If you want Mobility, nothing is better than Sword/Axe Rev. Literally teleporting around the battlefield is pretty fun.

However, from what I understand, Rev is not on par with other classes at the moment. Nor does that seem to be changing with the expansion.

Which also happens to be the top reason I haven’t bought the expansion yet.

That’s an outdated opinion. Rev can do good damage in pve and is good/great in both pvp and wvw. A few classes can do more damage than rev in pve, however it’s only by a few thousand dps, not some significant difference. Also renegade is a literal substantial dps increase for both power and condi revenant in pve. The class isn’t perfect but its certainly not awful and it’s more than viable, just not used for most speedclears.

You say that, but every single pro raiding guild has Rev listed as being good at 1-2 bosses. Thats it. Every other class other than Necro has 5+. Not only that, but Rev has only Condi build for DPS, and 1 heal build. Nothing else.

So as far as I’m concerned, that isn’t out-dated.

That’s because these groups are INTERESTED IN SPEED CLEARS AND SPEED CLEARS ALONE WITH PLAYERS THAT CAN CONSISTENTLY HIT BENCHMARKS (i.e. the top 1%, which most players are not).

I use Rev (condi, power, and/or healing depending on the fight and how I feel that day) and I get consistently good dps or fill my role just fine. Usually I’m 2nd best for dps or consistently pulling as much dps as the other dps roles. We consistently clear bosses in 1 shot most of the time.

So don’t quote QT at me thinking they’re the supreme gods of all that is raiding. Hell, they don’t even have Non Utility Power Chronomancer listed which gets pretty much the same DPS as Power Mesmer and it has more cleave and a little extra utility. They don’t have it listed because they don’t care about classes that aren’t helping them get a speed clear kill. Most people don’t give a kitten about speedclears. I don’t. Most just want to clear the content. My group’s times are fine as is and we run a ton of off meta stuff. We never hit enrage or come close.

Revenant in it’s current form is fine and about to get better with renegade for high end pve content so yes, it IS an outdated opinion. Find a group that doesn’t adhere to strict meta or build your own groups. Rev is MORE than viable. This is a community elitism problem, NOT a revenant problem.

Fractured.3928:

Swiftly.2385:

I am just returning to the game. Haven’t played since right before HOT. Was thinking of leveling a Rev. but this discussion makes me think it might not be worth it as I am looking for a good all around class with good mobility. (Something that can function in all aspects of the game depending on the spec) Was trying to choose between Rev, Mesmer, Ele, or Guardian. I know, I know much different play styles.

Is it even worth it at this point to level up a Rev in anticipation of maining it in POF? Or would the other classes I listed be better choices?

This is not a troll, I am just honestly trying to decide and having a tough time.

If you want Mobility, nothing is better than Sword/Axe Rev. Literally teleporting around the battlefield is pretty fun.

However, from what I understand, Rev is not on par with other classes at the moment. Nor does that seem to be changing with the expansion.

Which also happens to be the top reason I haven’t bought the expansion yet.

That’s an outdated opinion. Rev can do good damage in pve and is good/great in both pvp and wvw. A few classes can do more damage than rev in pve, however it’s only by a few thousand dps, not some significant difference. Also renegade is a literal substantial dps increase for both power and condi revenant in pve. The class isn’t perfect but its certainly not awful and it’s more than viable, just not used for most speedclears.

Just posting to say I highly disagree with this idea. The class is fine as it is right now. It’s useful in every. single. game mode. at the moment even if it’s not used for most speedclears.

The profession plays fine and energy management as it is now is fine. It requires a patient and precise playstyle that takes a lot to master and that is totally fine. If rev doesn’t work for you guys mechanically, find a class that does.

As a rev main I don’t want the class to become overpowered again and then suffer another 2 years of nerfs. It’s already top tier in pvp and wvw when played expertly and that caused a lot of heartache for pve revs. Removing energy costs on weapon skills will cause way more issues than it will solve. And same with adding a way to get more energy.

CutesySylveon.8290:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.

Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.

For a total upgrade to condi revenant, you make use of less than half your traits in PvE: the first tier of traits are completely worthless if you don’t use a SB and we have no means of applying bleed from traits, the second tier is just as worthless if you don’t use SB or Kalla, and she only becomes usable for protection, which Glint can do better. The last tier is likely going to be Lasting Legacy to boost Kalla’s Fervor stacks.

You shouldn’t need the F2; Kalla’s Fervor is dumb easy to stack since in full Viper’s gear we’ll be overstacked on precision with Invocation and the might you give is less than Herald could have done much easier. F3 is the main energy dump so less time making use of your normal rotations. F4 is not worth trying to keep up with since it’s once again an energy dump and for only 4 seconds. No point in this when chrono exists, not even when traited, which also takes your Fervor stacks down.

What do you get from all this and what do you lose? (This is without Kalla and SB, because you say Renegade is a straight upgrade, not the weapon or the legend.)

We get Kalla’s Fervor, which is a good buff to both ferocity and condi damage, and some precision buffs from the trait line that cap us over 100% crit with Invocation.

We lose Assassin’s Presence, which is less ferocity than traited Kalla’s Fervor, but it’s a group buff. We lose Ferocious Strikes, which puts our ferocity over what Kalla’s Fervor would give when using the previously mentioned trait. We lose all of the Devastation minors, which all aid in damage, the first to a lesser extent when Vulnerability is capped, and we lose Swift Termination.

Or if we drop Invocation, we lose our stun break on legend swap, the 7% buff to both condi and power damage, might from fury gain, a condi cleanse or single attack buff, and Rolling Mists, which put me at about 65% crit chance.

If this is an upgrade, it’s a rather poor one for what we lose and won’t change how we play at all, just a few numbers that really aren’t that great. Your position is just as subjective, so stop calling the rest of the pots black.

It is objectively higher damage in a raid scenario, based on numbers alone, to drop invocation in a raid setting and use Kalla instead. If you haven’t taken the time to run the numbers yourself, I would suggest you do so.

Every buff from invocation is overwritten by something that Kalla offers and her utilities are wayyyy better than just spamming Vengeful Hammers on Jalis on swap every 10s. She adds 13% condi damage and 300 ferocity over Invocation, adds 13% more crit with full endurance than Roiling Mists does and having full endurance isn’t hard in raids if you know what you’re doing. We get bleed from Geomancy and/or Sigil of Earth, so heartpiercer and blood fury are in fact damage increases to the current condi rev build.

Definitely not calling the pot black. Calling out the pot for not having done it’s homework…and if you’re talking about open world pve, then you’re free to run whatever, but, like i said, objectively Kalla IS a dps increase over our current condi build. Period.

Kronos.2560:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

That may be true but if for an entire spec the ONLY thing worth using is the elite. I think you have a problem.

Due to rev’s energy mechanic it will never have all it’s utilities or skills be useful in all situations at all times. Thief has a lot of the same issue due to initiative. Rev however can be flexible, at the cost of its personal dps, and the other utilities do have some potential uses. I only stated the elite skill as an example because that + traits alone is enough to warrant it being totally fine in pve. Perhaps not speedclear, but fine neverless.

Kidel.2057:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Nah, they’ll invite Firebrand or Holosmith, since they just have way more condi dps and far more support and survivability. Or Elementalist, that’s still probably the best class if they nerf Holosmith as they should.

That’s a player exclusivity issue. Anything 30k or higher is totally viable in pve raids. If people don’t realize that they’re kittenes. I’ve been playing power rev/condi rev in raids for the past year (i.e. after it fell out of meta). If some people don’t want you, kitten em, make your own groups or find people who do. That’s what I did. That’s what friends of mine who played Condi Thief before it became amazing did. Rev might not be used for most speedclears, but whatever, it’s totally capable at pulling good damage and can effectively clear the content. Renegade is a total upgrade for condi rev. Period.

Saying it won’t be “good for pve” is just pure ignorance or based on your own subjective opinion on what “good” is.

The amount of damage the elite on Kalla potentially adds is literally insane. It will be 100% fine in pve raids.

Renegade:
Shorbow: Cast times too long on most skills, Needs mobility/Evade, buggy, damage is low, #4 spiritcrush needs “line of sight” removed. All skills possibly need 300 extra range. Mace feels like the much better option always with only slightly reduced range over shortbow. Almost no reason to use it as the 2nd set with Mace/Axe because it has no defense and not enough range to compensate.

Kalla Utils: All summons need CC immunity or 5 stacks Stab. Perhaps slightly larger radius. Heal is weak, needs 5 less energy cost, reduced cast, 1000-2000 extra healing bare minimum, breakstun moved elsewhere. Icerazor’s Ire needs chill.

They sold it as “offensive support” so it was, as OP said, a success in terms of power offense. I’ve also had similar success (with a slightly different power build).

As far as condi and kalla’s utilities go, the shortbow needs to be worked to be less buggy and needs a bit of a rework as it does trash damage and feels clunky. The utilities get interrupted or killed constantly and are awful due to that, but would have some potential if they were immune to CC or had a few stability stacks.

Her heal needs at least 1000-2000 extra initial heal, reduced energy cost, shorter cast time, and the break stun moved somewhere else tho.

Those are just optimal rotations for raids. These rotations assume you have perfect realistic raid buffs. In fractals or open world pve it’s a lot easier to utilize other utility skills for a variety of scenarios and on your own or without perfect buffs other skills become more powerful options

To keep it the same as all other Revenant legends, the stance itself and skills should have a different name than “Legendary Renegade.” For example, Herald and Glint is Legendary Dragon. Double Renegade is redundant and strange in comparison to the other 5 legends.

Legendary Charr Stance, Legendary Rebel Stance, or something else would be better options at the moment.

Total nitpick, but if it is changed it would bring better symmetry.

it increases the effectiveness of fury by 100%, so instead of 20% it gives 40% crit chance.

Add a short evade to the leap, a short CC on the first (or all) blasts, or get rid of the leap entirely and just give it a new animation.

It currently doesn’t feel impactful enough to lock yourself into the leap animation.

James Rustler.7860:

It’s pretty ridiculous that they still haven’t even acknowledged this issue.

They acknowledged it on Reddit, but they need to acknowledge it here or somewhere on the forums.

Honestly it’s ridiculous we don’t have an update today. People with static groups (like me) plan their week partially around raiding and it’s disrespectful to our time to not let us know what the status of the issue is.

Jinath.1298:

Excellent Name.9574:

I was wondering after the HoT aftermath and the damage it did to the game and player population, will Anet have the strength to forget HoT and move on?

What went wrong with HoT, IMHO, and should never be repeated:

01. Pricing the expansion as the full game for players already owning the original game
02. DLC worth of new content, not worthy of expansion name
03. Rushed and short story mode, with a really underwhelming final battle design.
04. Questionable map design, not the beauty of HoT maps, just usability. Minimap system is not enough for HoT layout.
05. Lack of new character slot for the new profession (remedied after an outcry from players).
06. Killing the casualness of the original Guild Wars 2 in more than one way and thus making maps either extremely hard or right down impossible for solo completion.
07. Nerfing the older content, all in hope player base will be forced to buy into deeply flawed new one.
08. Essentially killing off PvP with tying it to the expansion.
09. Nearly destroying WvW which survival is still up in the air.
10. etc.

I completely agree with all of the above.
I haven’t purchased HoT and it is most likely that I never will because of these reasons.
Also, the game in general seems rather dead to me and completely boring. Not to mention the GW2 community, who claim to be helpful and friendly, are actually quite the opposite when it comes down to it.
Lastly, most players only hang around Lions Arch doing fractals or the occasional world boss for their free trash loot.

No effort; no challenge.

Since you don’t even have access to half the game I think your view is completely skewed. You really don’t have any conception of what a vast majority of players are doing by only playing core. Perhaps it’s dead and boring because you’re still playing vanilla gw2 and have missed out on 2 years of updates….

You have to be struck while under 25%, so if you go from 30% to 0 or from full to 0 entirely by condi damage the trait won’t activate. It’s really dumb in its current form especially after the Crystal Hibernation nerfs ages ago.

bearshaman.3421:

Euthymias.7984:

It does a very low heal on activation Devs nerfed the base healing and each dagger has to hit to steal some small amount of life. Its more of a DPS increase than a heal tbh. The daggers also still get used up if your attack misses or fails for any other reason, too.

Ok, so it’s not just me. I know Impossible Odds is pretty amazing, but that heal skill is awful…

The heal is really only slightly decent when used with Unrelenting Assault or used in conjunction with Hammer 4 and Impossible Odds at range. Otherwise you’re just open to taking damage while healing which is meh at best.

Cyninja.2954:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

I do not recommend using shatters to give yourself alacrity unless you’re in an open world pve setting. In a raid setting I recommend just maintaining 2+ shield phantasms as much as possible.

I think I should have explained what I ment with “shatter when possible”. I was refering to those situations where you have no phantasms up or are about to override old phantasms with new ones. If you are doing your rotation properly, your group should be alacrity caped no matter how many shield phantasms you run. No reason to override old phantasms with new ones (or worse with clones) when you have Chronophantasma.

VG – on phase switch, you lose all illusions anyway, shatter F2 and F3 with no phantasms
Gorsevale -on phase switch, you lose all illusions anyway, shatter F2 and F3 with no phantasms
Sabataha – no extra shatters

Sloth – no extra shatters
Trio – it’s trio, doesn’t matter what you do
Matthias – no extra shatters

Escort – inbetween towers, shatter those F2 and F3
KC – on phase switch, you lose all illusions anyway, shatter F2 and F3 with no phantasms
Xera – depending on if you get ported or not, shatter F2 and F3 or not

Cairn – no extra shatters
Mursaat – no extra shatters
Samarog – on phase switch, you lose all illusions anyway, shatter F2 and F3 with no phantasms
Deimos – depending on if you are tank or utility, on phase switch, you lose all illusions anyway, shatter F2 and F3 with no phantasms

Telling people to not use a mechanic which literally gives no disadvantage to being used is silly. There are ample opportunities to make use of those extra shatters, especially F2 and F3.

Your explanation makes 200x more sense than your original statement of “shatter when possible” which is super misleading, especially to new players. My warning was largely aimed at the fact that your original statement essentially implied using those shatters on cooldown, which is awful advice for new mesmers. I’m glad you added the above though, because it is comprehensive and good guidance.

I do not recommend using shatters to give yourself alacrity unless you’re in an open world pve setting. In a raid setting I recommend just maintaining 2+ shield phantasms as much as possible. That will give you all the alacrity you need and maintain perfect alacrity on the rest of your subgroup. If you keep exploding your phantasms you run the risk of losing alacrity for your party which is way more important than maintaining your individual alacrity. If you’re playing support chrono you’re only doing 3-7k damage usually anyway so maintaining your buffs for your group should be your only concern. Shatters imo should not be used at all unless it’s for Diversion for breakbars (and even then this is a bad idea) or Distortion to shield yourself and your team for mechanics.

As for the rotation it seems complicated at first, but just take your time trying to learn it and practice over and over on the golem. Eventually you’ll get it and it’ll be second nature to you.

Honestly hammer rev does fine in all levels of fractals. It might not be optimal but personally I don’t think you really need optimal anywhere in this game. I’d rather have a hammer/staff rev who knows how to survive in any of the high level Fractals (including CM 100) over someone who tries to melee constantly but fails at it. For a hammer/staff build I recommend Glint/Shiro. Impossible Odds on Shiro adds quite a bit of dps to your hammer and gives some nice mobility to regain distance while wielding it so you can do max damage with your CoR.

I ran Sword/Shield/Hammer Glint/Shiro Dev/Invo/Herald in most content besides raids since rev release and it works quite well. Sword/axe is fun too.

Entenkommando.5208:

Play necro against this trait and show me how far you get with l2p…

Also where do you get the idea from that druid is supposed to be a cc and sustain build? It’s supposed to be a support build in the very first place and not a godkitten cc machine.

This video shows you how to beat the trait the trait as a necro

If story is something you’re interested in I would play through the story while leveling to 80.

also make sure you get Living World Season 2, as it is much better than the personal story and prepares you a bit for the difficulty jump between the core content and HoT

For open world either works just fine, same with fractals. Condi rev is going to be the higher dps spec of the two, especially in raids.

The nice thing about condi rev is you can constantly blast might in your fire fields.
This gives great might support to the party when without a PS warrior, especially when paired with glint. You can still have good CC with staff, even though you do lose some dps when swapped to it.

Ryou.2398:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Blue.1207:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Omega Zoa.3859:

Whats the point that it gets 30k? Every other condi spec beats rev. Everything beats rev at this point.

That’s just not true. 30k at the moment is it’s baseline on a non moving target meaning any boss that moves will take higher amounts than that. If condi ranger can make their tiny bonfires work on moving targets condi rev sure as hell can make their mace 2 work on them, plus gain the benefit of 20k torment ticks during movement.

Sure it’s not going to be used for QT speed clears most likely, but it’s comparable if not better than several other condi and power dps options I’ve seen pugs and organized groups use over the past few months.

Yeah, no. Once the boss moves out of your fire fields the DPS increase will be negligible if not non existent.

You clearly haven’t tested it or played condi ranger/condi engi/condi ele in actual raids

Ele condi got s recent netf after big patch fixed some what.

True but it’s still hitting 33k -39k depending on target size

Blue.1207:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Omega Zoa.3859:

Whats the point that it gets 30k? Every other condi spec beats rev. Everything beats rev at this point.

That’s just not true. 30k at the moment is it’s baseline on a non moving target meaning any boss that moves will take higher amounts than that. If condi ranger can make their tiny bonfires work on moving targets condi rev sure as hell can make their mace 2 work on them, plus gain the benefit of 20k torment ticks during movement.

Sure it’s not going to be used for QT speed clears most likely, but it’s comparable if not better than several other condi and power dps options I’ve seen pugs and organized groups use over the past few months.

Yeah, no. Once the boss moves out of your fire fields the DPS increase will be negligible if not non existent.

You clearly haven’t tested it or played condi ranger/condi engi/condi ele in actual raids

Could possibly work as a tank healer condi set, maybe some apothecary to go alongside the seraph.

I run a heal tank rev with my group and it does really well. I think the condi set would be stronger, but you might lose out on glint which is really nice for the extra protection and protection on heal (synergizes really well with ventari’s tablet) trait

Omega Zoa.3859:

Whats the point that it gets 30k? Every other condi spec beats rev. Everything beats rev at this point.

That’s just not true. 30k at the moment is it’s baseline on a non moving target meaning any boss that moves will take higher amounts than that. If condi ranger can make their tiny bonfires work on moving targets condi rev sure as hell can make their mace 2 work on them, plus gain the benefit of 20k torment ticks during movement.

Sure it’s not going to be used for QT speed clears most likely, but it’s comparable if not better than several other condi and power dps options I’ve seen pugs and organized groups use over the past few months.

it hits 30k on stationary at least and people were taking pure condi non ps warrior for dps slots which hits the same numbers, so sure it might not be “the best” option or what speed runners will want to take, but it’s still viable and should be a fine dps slot, especially against any target that moves. Not to mention it still has great CC and AP for more group damage

It brings at least 30k stationary at the moment which is pretty much the same as condi warrior and scepter guard, so it’s definitely adequate.

It also still brings a lot of power revs great CC and can be thrown into a hybrid subgroup to give assasin’s presence. Definitely worth it or at least viable for anyone doing non-speed runs

Miki Zu Heltzer.4018:

Holy kitten… you mean… condi rev might actually be Raid viable now?!

Yup.

Could you test it with UA instead of EtD with the new torment on chill trait?

I actually tried this already. The DPS output was considerably less because Unyielding Anguish completely depleted my energy and the additional torment output didn’t make up for it.

Can confirm, UA is a bad choice in pve over EtD, tried out only UA and a combination of EtD and UA, but ran out of energy too fast as well and the 10% buff, pulsing torment and Diabolic Inferno does way too much damage

29.5k with potential for a better rotation or tighter rotation on a stationary target isn’t bad at all. A mobile target would be the same or better.

You can take glint for extra support and stuff but Its at least a 2k dps drop i’m pretty sure.

Rev still has really good CC even with it’s selfish dev/invo/corrupt mallyx/jalis spec

the shortbow changes are INCREDIBLY good, especially for condi thief. Choking gas is insane. And there are several high level condi thieves in the game; just because it isn’t popular doesn’t mean it isn’t good.

Its Nerfing Time.1495:

I’m curious, why the Jalis hammers? You could increase your DPS with Herald via boons + popping F2 / Elements. To my knowledge, hammers wouldn’t do much for a Condi build?

We’re talking in a raid scenario with buffs from 4 other teammates. Glint seems to underperform when you can take invocation/devastation/corruption instead of herald. The hammers do a surprising amount of damage in full viper especially with the buffs from devastation.

For pvp or wvw I would definitely take herald over devastation and potentially switch invocation to retribution.

For any non raid pve I take invocation/corruption/herald.

I got 28.5k pretty much same set up, change was malice → geomancy instead.

My rotation was essentially the same as yours however also added in axe 5 off cooldown. This pulls a lot of energy so I found myself cancelling avatar right at the end (last second of jalis cooldown) then reactivating it then swap.

Some guy on the reddit got 29.5k apparently

to be fair, if we’re comparing rev to condi ps, condi ps is practically a full blown dps at this point that also has supportive elements. I’m not sure I’d even consider it a full support at all anymore.

It gets better dps than Hammer Guard and I don’t think anyone would classify Hammer Guard as “Support”

By high end pve content I’m assuming you mean raids and/or T4 Fractals. I main revenant and have spent time on all classes.

Guardian: Most accepted of the 3 in raids (pugs) and is generally great in all game modes. Dragonhunter adds a 2nd long range option, but for DH to maximize damage it has to be close to activate it’s traps, so it’s still melee.

Necromancer: Might have a harder time getting into a pug raid with it, the best raid build for it is melee range, but condition based, not power. Power necro is less accepted in pug raids. Will do great in fractals.

Revenant: Probably the most undertuned of the 3 classes currently, which also means will hopefully be receiving buffs in the future and is probably a safe pick. Works great in t4 fractals including challenge mode 100 (i’ve never gotten kicked from a fractal for playing rev like some forum posters claim to). Pug raids will be the hardest to get into out of the 3 classes. However, if you find a guild raid to become a part of (which I recommend doing anyway), Revenant works fine; I run it consistently with my group with no problems.

Rev can make some slight alterations to it’s rotation/build to upkeep protection well with only a minor dps loss, making it comparable to hammer guard (since hammer guard is lower dps than rev anyway).

as for the 24k, I was pretty surprised it was that high, actually. When people talk about condi rev being utter trash I figured the numbers were a lot lower, but this is pretty much the same dps as power reaper (which obviously isn’t good, but I’ve run with it a few times before).

Gonna try it on Matthias this saturday to see how it does.

Rofo.4782:

LucianTheAngelic.7054:

Tested condi rev pretty extensively yesterday using realistic buffs on the stationary large 4mil hp golem and the mobile 1mil hp golem.

Stationary: 23.5k
Mobile: 24.5k

The mobile golem unfortunately doesn’t have a higher hp option, so I imagine the actual dps would be .5 to 1k higher since it just dies too fast to get a really accurate number. My rotations weren’t perfect, so I imagine if someone with even better rotations came in they could manage 1-2k more on both golems. Overall it seems to be nearly comparable to Power Rev.

Build was Devastation/Corruption/Invocation. Mallyx/Jalis, geomancy/smoldering, veggie pizza toxic focusing. I found Glint to be a 1.5-2k dps loss over Jalis and the Herald traitline to be less dps than Invocation even with Jalis.

Condi rev might actually do well on Matthias or VG; gonna try it with my guild soon to see what types of numbers I get.

Which weapon sets are you using?

Mace axe, proccing geomancy on legend swap, channeling hammers in jalis/avatar in mallyx

took staff as secondary for CC, but didn’t use it in the test and wouldn’t use it except for CC in a raid

Tested condi rev pretty extensively yesterday using realistic buffs on the stationary large 4mil hp golem and the mobile 1mil hp golem.

Stationary: 23.5k
Mobile: 24.5k

The mobile golem unfortunately doesn’t have a higher hp option, so I imagine the actual dps would be .5 to 1k higher since it just dies too fast to get a really accurate number. My rotations weren’t perfect, so I imagine if someone with even better rotations came in they could manage 1-2k more on both golems. Overall it seems to be nearly comparable to Power Rev.

Build was Devastation/Corruption/Invocation. Mallyx/Jalis, geomancy/smoldering, veggie pizza toxic focusing. I found Glint to be a 1.5-2k dps loss over Jalis and the Herald traitline to be less dps than Invocation even with Jalis.

Condi rev might actually do well on Matthias or VG; gonna try it with my guild soon to see what types of numbers I get.

I would prefer clipping ONLY on Light Armor. The Heavy Armor looks fine as is.

I see this as an armor specific issue, not a global problem for all of the sets.

I can’t speak for the medium armor as I have not made it or seen it much in game yet. The light armor definitely needs a closer attach point though.

The heavy looks perfect for me and I don’t see any floating issues with it; It looks attached. A closer attach point on heavy could cause issues and it wouldn’t be fixing any sort of issue with that set.