Guild Wars 2

Dagger main hand.

Add cleave… and add cleave. Seriously: perfect weapon, even offhand. But just add cleave.

My Necro prospers because he cheats at moa races in Lions Arch. He registered his flesh golem as a contender. It’s now this season favourite.
How did he do it? Well.. it’s a secret, but I can share some tips: you need some honey, a pillow and a big knife.

Who are u to judge him? Everyone needs to eat.

^^8/10 for the potential sexual innuendos….
But elementalis, in the meantime, have long staves just like us and moves like rabbits on speed.
… I think I’ll go and dig some hugs from berthorld, my flesh golem (No hands whatsoever that guy, but those scythe appendages embrace you wonderfully.)

Ah sorry… foolish me, I wanted to write down my joy in more adequate sentences but my frail spirit was ovewhelmed by emotion.
You run longer wihtout 1 liter of blood: way more important. Life is a marathon afterall.
Bleeding and some cardio, and you will always outrun the pitchforks, mobs, monsters, bullets and bullies… or maybe not?
After so many deaths and respawns everything gets a little fuzzy.

Yea. It makes sense. Absolutely: while bleeding you lose weight. 1 kg for every liter of blood more o less. So it’s normal if you run faster: you’ve dropped luggage.
Yay! Now we can finally troll world bosses as the other classes… till next patch. Where blood is power will be replaced by something else… I dunno, maybe a mark of summoning. 60 sec cd, half bone minion at a time.

Yes: I’m flipping the table here.

Thank you for your answer and explanation: I’ll swap underwater skill asap.

I experienced this bug in TA up path mostly: especially after the bosses. The Champion Nightmare Vines and Malrona come to mind markedly (and after Malrona this bug is a hassle). I knew of the underwater/land duplicity and how it affects skills cooldown.
Does this mean I’ve found a brand new bug to add to the necro cluster? We could almost use them as skill, instead of locust swarm…

Fellow necromancers, a wave of a death hand to all of you.
I would like to know if someone else has encountered this particular bug yet: switching from signet of spite to signet of locust sometimes put the SoL in a partial cooldown (20 sec). Meaning, I’m a slow depowered snail, without a reason.
This is annoying in general PvE, but becomes very grating in dungeons, when I need to switch beetween them back and forth.
Does somebody else know of this?

I’ve tried every race and I’ve no doubt: if you want a dark, dreaded grim reaper roll Norn. Paint it abyss black. Strap skulls and bones everywhere, from armor to weapons (there are some pretty sweet: deathwish and adam come to mind) and share the darkness.
“I’m the master of LIFE!” will ring in your ears so well you’ll never try another race.

pierwola.9602:

Ogii.6958:

And you are trying to downplay how not-worth-it this Grandmaster trait is because it doesn’t come at as high of a cost in YOUR build. The point Ash is trying to make is that, regardless of your build, this trait isn’t good enough to warrant the 30 SP you have to spend to get it.

Nop im trying to say that this is a good trait but you have to build arount it (near to death), like in every other buld. Maybe for condi/power heavy build 30 points is too much and flashing ds is not a option but for (suport healing build) me this is a great trait when you combine it with spiteful spirit,weakening shroud, furious demise, shrouded removal,deathly invigoration, near to death.

p.s try to tank something in DS and you will see how nice this idea is, few sec and your LF(perma stab) gone.

I too think that the only stability boon for a necromancer in a grandmaster trait it’s too expansive, sorry pierwola. Too little for too many traits points: and it’s even a self boon! I could understand if it were a team boon, or an area…. but self only? Too kitten high for a selfish trait.
And it’s totally possible to tank someone in death shroud: you just have to stay mobile while spamming attacks and dodge when needed. Of course, if you stay in melee range spamming life blast while afk it’s useless, but it can be done.
But again, as necromancer we lack the ability to refill our endurance… something that should be adressed, imo.

Sarrs.4831:

Mander.6924:

Sarrs.4831:

i’d like to see minions not exploding when you get moa’ed

would be nice

…mhh. In case you don’t know every tranformation effect stove pets, destroy illusions… and naturally kill minions. Don’t see why should be different with minions master…
In case you knew it, deadpan isn’t the best way to contribute to this thread.
Strike one Sarrs.

I’m aware, but this is a thread about necromancers, and Moa Morph is the only ability that can force another player to transform. If this was a guardian thread and Spirit Weapons were actually worthwhile, I’d be saying the exact same thing there. Plague and Lich no longer popping your minions would be a nice side bonus; it’s not an intended mechanic.

I really don’t see a point in writing up an 8-sentence paragraph on why Moa shouldn’t kill necromancer minions when it’s obvious enough without it.

“Strike one”? Pull your head out.

After reading your signature and your post, I thought you were trolling: I don’t perceive the destruction of minions as a problem with transformation abilities.
And for that, I’m sorry.
An 8 sentences paragraph would be welcome next time: after all we’re trying to voice our opinions here.

Anyway to stay on topic: as you know, Plague and Lich Form both destroy your minions, as all the elite norn skills to become a spirit of Wild. Don’t see why polymorph should be different: ok, you’re the target with it, but to use it once, mesmers pay a 180 seconds of cd, reasonable, imo. And again, even if the destruction of minions isn’t intended as mechanich, but I think this is quite debatable, I wouldn’t prioritize it over the general bugfixes, the necromancer fixes, and the balancing of the class…

Near to Death does not give stability: it just reduces DS cd. To achieve stability you still need to go to all the way to the grandmaster trait.
And condition removal is so widespread by now, that it’s not a calling card for necros anymore: everyone can do it. And some could do it even better.
We still have consume condition, but it’s the only thing left: not very much.
And almost every other class have some way to achieve the same stability with better duration or lesser cd…

Sarrs.4831:

i’d like to see minions not exploding when you get moa’ed

would be nice

…mhh. In case you don’t know every tranformation effect stove pets, destroy illusions… and naturally kill minions. Don’t see why should be different with minions master…
In case you knew it, deadpan isn’t the best way to contribute to this thread.
Strike one Sarrs.

What about build that BUILD around flashing DS ?

We’re already borderline spike junkies as it is… and even than, our damage should be buffed. Do we really need another death or death attack?

Deathly Perception

Yet another grandmaster trait which doesn’t solve a core problem of the necromancer
class… if and when you build your necro for it. And considering the alternatives and the situation at the moment, it’s way to expensive to use, imo.

3sec stab + 2 dodge, for me it’s more than enough

Except we don’t have a way to refill endurance… so yes, we could have 3 sec stability, 2 dodge… but if the fight isn’t ended while we dodged, we’re dead. And the fights with PvE bosses never ends so fast… meanwhile, every single other class have multiple damage reduction or evasion. And we even lack cleave.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Name them then. We have very little access to stability and you REALLY think for a 30point trait that its good?

1-10 – you can combine it with your normal skills e.g. stab + heal
11 – works better with rest of the “flashing” traits
12 – you won’t get more than 5/10 sec of stab with your idea
13 – it’s pretty hard to kill your foe when you are in DS
14 – you are not dependent on skills with LF regeneration
15 – you don’t need more than 3 sec if you want to use your DS skills w/o interrupt
16 – you can’t be interrupted during shroudstomp

I have no issue healing as it is, rarely get interrupted when i need to heal and worst comes to worst i have DeathShroud just in case.

What about builds that BUILD around DeathShroud? i guess they get ignored becuase you dont build that way?

Pretty hard to kill your foes? maybe if you aren’t built for DeathShroud, when you BUILD for it, it is VERY powerful so that one is wrong.

What about when you need to get into a a tower or keep with all that stuns and AoE fields everywhere, you think that THREE seconds will save you? You’ll be laughed at and then turned into a ping pong ball until you die.

Who says this is for Shroud Stomping? which requires a bug to actually do it seeing as its not part of the mechanic without cheating around it.

^^ Death Shroud’s Life blast combined with reaper’s might and a powerbuild is probably one of the few sources of sustained DPS necros have atm.
And 3 second of stability for a grandmaster trait is too little, imo: buff the duration, move it in the adept section or better yet give us 3 seconds of innate stability upon entering DS.
By design, Necros should stay in melee range: we have bonus damage in short range. Our wells and marks becomes smaller and smaller every patch, but we lack a way to stay in the fray: and this is something that need to be adressed badly.

The only way I see it viable would be to split WvW/PvP traits from those of PvE…
WvW and PvE have to be balanced in a different way: we’ve seen how impossible it is to achieve with the same trees.
Splitting the traits for all the classes is the only way to achieve a really balanced sistem.
Different boons and different traits for PvE and WvW, balanced and managed differently: it could solve so many problems…. will it ever happen? Of course not. It would require so much rework, testing and balancing wise, that we could maybe see it in GW3.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Mander.6924:

The “melted in seconds” part is debatable, imo: with some practice, DS becomes a way to achieve more damage, thanks to reaper might. A weapon, instead of a shield: using life force to escape damage erase its purpose and I think it’s a waste of resources.
I roll a d/d powerbuild and I’ve never felt the need for more toughness…
Again, what we lack imo are boons: we can control condition damage, but after the buff to condition removal this ability becomes useless. We need something instead to replace it, other than some stability.
For these reasons, I’m of the opinion that siphoning traits should be buffed, not erased: after all, mastery of life and death should be the calling card of necromancer…

I agree that Dhuumfire should vanish: it even breaks lore….

Foot In the Grave should be moved in the adept tree. Or even becomes innate bonus.
Afterall necro ranged are pitiful, so much that not even mm should use staff: to balance this handicap (eles and mes can both be ranged and melee) we should have, imo, stability and stability boons. And cleave.

With the removal of The useless Siphon traits i could see some Boon love in there. Traits like:

Boon Leech: Steal a Boon every 5 seconds from foes in range, 360 Range. 5 second cool down.

Shrouded Corruption: Constantly corrupt a boon into a condition while in DeathShroud, Number of Targets:5, Interval: 5 seconds, Range: 360

Other classes have built in methods to remove conditions we should have built in methods to corrupt/remove boons

Interesting, but way too powerful… devs stated already that want to forbid epidemyc synergy as a way to achieve damage. A perma corruption of boons over an area of effect + epidemyc would mean a devastating combo capable of toppling the balance of any fight, everywhere from PvE to WvW. Not happening: not even with a rewamp of the class. ;(

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Mander.6924:

What would you like to see for Necromancer?

I would like the MANY bugs and issues to be fixed. Anet needs to understand that buffing and nerfing classes is VERY stupid when you have bugs and issues that if FIXED would go some way to helping balance the game.

I would like to see it that we dont get melted in seconds, some more build options. I would like to see DeathShroud to be improved, it has so much potential but again issues and bugs weaken it.

Remove Dhuumfire, just remove it. It wasn’t asked for. It isn’t wanted and yet you add it and then have to nerf us for a trait that we didn’t even want to begin with…

Siphoning traits are simply useless. Remove them and add in some defensive traits. Personally:

Spite:
Spiteful Spirit could have its duration increased a bit.
Dhuumfire to be replaced with something else

Curses:
Reaper’s Precision – Increase the Life Force gained to at least 3-5%
Weakening Shroud – Remove the Bleeding and increase Weakness Duration

Death Magic:
Reanimator – Decrease cool down to 10seconds and dont combine it with Death Nova
Protection of The Horde – Increase Toughness gain to +50
Deadly Strength – Increase toughness converted to 15%
Dark Armor – Change it to +400Toughness while inside DeathShroud
Shrouded Removal – Increase conditions to 2/3
Necrotic Corruption – change it to your attacks, Say 50% chance on crit, 10second CD

Blood Magic:
Full of Life – Reduce cool down or Increase the number of stacks of Regen
Vampiric – Remove. Replace
Blood To Power – Change it so the LOWER your health is the MORE Power you get
Bloodthirst – Remove. Replace
Vampiric Master – Remove. Replace
Transfusion – Make part of the skill. Remove trait and replace.
Vampiric Presision – Remove. Replace
Deathly Invigoration – Make it part of DS. Remove trait and replace
Fetid Consumption – you have chance to send condition to target, 50% chance, 10s CD
Vampiric Rituals – Remove. Replace

Soul Reaping:
Gluttony – Increase to 25%.
Path of Midnight – Recharge decreased by 25%
Near to Death – reduce cool down by 50% as part of DS. Remove Trait and replace
Foot In Grave – Gain Stability while in DS removed on exit, can be removed by skills

The “melted in seconds” part is debatable, imo: with some practice, DS becomes a way to achieve more damage, thanks to reaper might. A weapon, instead of a shield: using life force to escape damage erase its purpose and I think it’s a waste of resources.
I roll a d/d powerbuild and I’ve never felt the need for more toughness…
Again, what we lack imo are boons: we can control condition damage, but after the buff to condition removal this ability becomes useless. We need something instead to replace it, other than some stability.
For these reasons, I’m of the opinion that siphoning traits should be buffed, not erased: after all, mastery of life and death should be the calling card of necromancer…

I agree that Dhuumfire should vanish: it even breaks lore….

Foot In the Grave should be moved in the adept tree. Or even becomes innate bonus.
Afterall necro ranged are pitiful, so much that not even mm should use staff: to balance this handicap (eles and mes can both be ranged and melee) we should have, imo, stability and stability boons. And cleave.

It makes me think they have some very precise metas to reach in term of gameplay and class management, which we may, or may not agree to (we don’t know them, so we can’t be sure: the problem is imo, we and the devs do not communicate in a meaningful way at all, but this is another story). They care for the game: it’s their work afterall, not only the meaning to earn a salary, and I know by personal experience there are caring people even in Anet game support.
But again, this do not help the thread: back on track please.

What would you like to see for Necromancer? And what do you think about my tips?

Let’s try to voice our opinions in a more constructive manner: I can relate with your disappointment, but it doesn’t help our concerns about necro to be heard.

I know that writing this will probably erase the odds of some devs considering the thread but I have to…

Isn’t “Play how you want” the core philosophy, the leitmotiv, of Anet?
Devs who tell us that Necros are meant to be an “attrition” class make me very suspicious: it negates a big chunk of what anet stood for the past year.
I don’t really want to continue this line of toughts, but I need to say one more thing about it: there are so little ways to justify this contradiction, but noone of them is pleasant…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Hell, if they gave us a toughness increase while inside DeathShroud and perma Stability while in Deathshroud (removed on exit) then i would happily not have access to res and finisher inside deathShroud.

Maybe they could fix the cool down on DeathShroud so it starts when you ENTER it rather than when you leave, fix the bug where 6 – 9 skills are blocked for 2-3 seconds after leaving DeathShroud would be nice as well.

I don’t consider toughness in DS a priority, not even in the long run: we can already gain life force while in DS and we have traits too to prolong its duration (you can manage as it is, imo). But I agree with the stability boon: we need it badly.
I don’t have issues with the CD on DS because I use reaper’s might to ramp up stacks of might, and usually I deplete my life force completely: so I don’t perceive it as a limitation. After depleting life force, I rightly need time to earn it again.

Sadly there are so many things to patch and boost with the necromancer, that even those 2/3 seconds (I think they are less…) of blocked skills aren’t a priorty imo. And this show the point at we’re.

Because I’m thinking about realistic changing to the necro profession, something that could be done in the short- to- middle span(middle january patch is already wishful thinking…). Changing the mechanics of Death Shroud would require more than one test (something noone want/have the time to do) and is a lot more hard to sell as an idea, than swap protection for stability…

Now that would be too much xD: stability + res is a no go.
Not even ranger pets can do it, and there is already an OP skills to rally: It’s called “Illusion of life”. We don’t need another one.

You know what, ArmageddonAsh? With the situation atm, I’ve to agree.
Death shroud should give stability. Still no team boon, but would be a step in the right direction…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Why not make it during ALL of your time in DeathShroud – it can be burst down in seconds unless you trait and build for it and could very well be removed by other Necro or Mesmers and others (i think)

Rather than just making it easy to counter, enemies should have to WORK for it, having a 3second Stability will NOT save you and considering that ALOT of people seem to love running Knock back and interrupt builds that are pretty much impossible to counter.

Interesting Tip!
I think that would be nice, but a little overpowered: maybe with a life force threshold, for instance like “grant DS stability when life force is under 30%”. This way you can’t abuse it and you have to handle death shroud with care…

Overkillengine.6084:

Necro’s have stability. One on a well, and one on a trait.

Now whether they are practical is another story entirely.

WoP gives one second of stability: too little. So little that it’s pointless: it’s impossible to depend on 1 second stability every 50 seconds of CD. In combat. And you should be able to timing the cast with the attack that may, or may not, launch you…
Precognition isn’t my forte. XD
“Foot in the Grave” is a grandmaster trait in the soul reaping tree which grant stability for you alone while entering death shroud.
And if you’re without life force? Do you have to eat a teammate to refill it?

Hi everyone, Mander here.

I like the Necromancer class. Or at least, I like the idea of it: it was my second main class, but as many of you I feel it’s one of the less loved and less welcomed, especially in PvE/dungeon content (the place I belong to, and I admit it without shame). And it doesn’t feel right… one class shouldn’t be labeled as selfish by default, or struggle to achieve teamwork.

I know that the emotions are running wild at the moment, especially after the last patch, but I hope we can have a civil discussion about it.

Next are some simple changes I would like to see implemented for the necromancer class, in order of priority: I would like to know what you think about them.

1)Cleave? Yes please.
Aoe damage (via some wells: corruption and suffering for instance) is the best raw damage necromancers possess atm. The problem, imo, is that all wells share a very long cooldown (even 40 seconds, more than half the CD time of an elite skill!).
This means we’re naturally born nuker with little sustained DPS via weapons skills.
Our weapons of choice are less than adequate for what we do, or what we should be able to do: so at least, give us cleave please. It would still feel a little… strange to go in the face of mobs with daggers (we aren’t elementalists, or thieves), but at least we would be less spikes junkies and more balanced as class.
Necromancer is the only class without cleave: something I struggle badly to comprehend. Even warriors have at least one aoe damage, and cleave by default. Why the reverse isn’t true? There aren’t many others alternatives to achieve a decent balance: other than buff weapon damage 10 times (which would be ridiculous and farfetched).

2) Shorter CD on wells
As adressed in point 1) without a viable alternative to optimal raw damage (instead of subpar) to wells, I think we need shorter CD on them to be… not better, but just balanced and competitive with other class. What’s the point of having classes struggling to reach average performance, while other dominate the scene just because?
Another option could be to move the blood magic trait: ritual mastery in the adept section and buffing it, balancing a little better the toll we pay for using wells.

3) Stability
Necromancers do not possess stability boons. And the only necro’s stunbreak viable for combat is well of power (the others are useful while skipping mobs). Necros lack stability badly: per se, this isn’t a problem. It becomes a dire shortcoming when it’s combined with the lack of mobility in general: as necro, we don’t have vigor, stance or any way to refill our endurance.
So let’s change this: totally. Let’s add some nice teamplay to necros and make us useful, especially after the general buff to condition removals. We’ve to gain something for all that we’ve lost.
So I would like very much to see at least one of the following implemented:
a) Signet of Locust- passive: you run faster. Active: stunbreak (life siphon of SoL is minor at best: we can live without it).
b) Spiteful Spirit (Spite traits): grant stability while entering death shroud, 3 seconds duration.
c) Ritual Protection (Death Magic Traits): Wells grant stability when cast, 3 seconds duration. At most, this will give 9 seconds of stability: reasonable, imo, and finally some oriented teamplay traits for necro too.

Another way to achieve decent mobility could be to put together life force and endurance via one grandmaster trait, something like: every time you gain life force, you gain endurance. But this would need to be balanced wisely, otherwise necros on speed would be the new normal.

That’s all folks. Ideas? Opinions? Constructive discussion?

OP, like you, I don’t like the idea of selling dungeons paths: I think selling them (even legit), hurts the “players- helping- players” elements of the community.
Helping players, imo, caring about fellow humans who, just like you, are enjoying Tyria, should be not mandatory, but at least desiderable. Sure, there are some goons everywhere, but noone can do every single content alone…
In short, why milking people this ruthlessly for even the most basic of things, like AC, the easiest dungeon out there (level wise)?
How much gold do you crave for people? What the hell do you need it for? I can’t understand…
(And this is from someone who farmed dungeon, has been in Arah Vet and still farm, so not your first angry casual player…)

Anyway, back on track: let’s face it, we can’t stop dungeon selling. And maybe it would be even wrong to try: afterall, selling paths makes buyers and sellers happy. Just because we don’t like dungeon selling, there are people out there who are looking for a legit seller, hoping to achieve something.
…But I admit, I feel a little better each time I help for free in Arah P4.

6/10. Nice backstory, but the name reminds me too much of Pippin from Lord of The Ring, lacking the hard sounds typical of charr names.

My second Charr is:
Knahrl Steelmuzzle (The “k” is silent, pronounce it like Narl in snarl) Iron Legion Engineer.
No-non sense legionnaire, Knahrl is a charr of simple taste: he likes big guns, explosives, hi-tech gadgets and a good cigar, from time to time
He’s gruff by nature, not really a people charr, preferring the quietness of his workshop to all the talking the other races seem to like. When he’s not building something with a big caliber or tinkering with explosives, Knahrl is on the field testing them, from Rata Sum to Sparkly Fen. Under the fur and muscles of a bear and all the pointy teeth though, Knahrl is a sincere nice guy, always ready to take one for the team (if there is a good reason) and follow the orders.
He joined the Vigil by trade more than by motivation: the biggest warmongering order in Tyria and they still use catapult? No good. Now Knahrl build tank and cannons for the Vigil, and he’s happy. He still goes out from time to time: nothing like a field trip with a trusty .50 cal shotgun.

spoj.9672:

Mander.6924:

For the AoE on bushes, using wells you can clear them without dropping the weapon to hack the bots, saving time and forces, something that can not be done by a warr, for instance.
Sure, you can solo it, but a full team can surely do it faster…

And again, mesmer and necros are different: they complete each other, so much in fact that while forming a party for CoE, I would pick 3 warr, 1 mes and a powernecro over 4 warr and a mes. The team can only benefit from it, or so I’ve experienced.

It is faster on mesmer to solo. The amount of golems that aggro and get stuck on bushes when everyone is in the room makes it go so slow. Mesmer can just run circles clearing bushes with phantasms and focus pull 4 golems into the husk at the same time. Its why I always switch to mesmer for p2. Heck if im not on my mesmer for p2 I still solo it because even with a gun its faster to run circles and chain channel them into the husk than it is when people screw up the channels and aggro golems.

Your experience with necro might be better than you playing warrior but that doesnt mean necro is better than warrior for coe. Id say thats an issue of you not being a very good warrior. But the truth is that if all buffs/banners are maxed by the group then replacing one of the warriors with a necro is a better choice if you use my necro build (does more single target dps than warrior when fully buffed). An even better replacement would be an ele, engi, thief, guard or ranger though (assuming the group is consisting of your warrior stacking + 1 mesmer). If I ever want boon control I will take a mesmer because its simply better. Necro boon removal is good in pvp/wvw, not in pve due to its bursty nature.

I think you’re sitting a little to close to your achievements points to concede anything other your own dogmas…
I could have said the same about you being a poor necro, but I haven’t done it: because I’ve never played with you. If this discussion has to become a badmouthing contest or a 8====D race about how better we’re, I think it’s time to stop here and to agree to disagree.

spoj.9672:

Correction. You tried to explain why you thought it wasnt the case. Doesnt mean you are right. If necros were better in certain situations they would be picked by the best guilds for records and such.

Power necro is ok in coe but its not better than a warrior unless all buffs are already accounted for. Also i facepalmed when you said use golem charge to push alpha into the wall. Charge is a knockdown and wont do that. Fear does work but if alpha has chill from the risen it wont go far enough. Better to let the mesmer/guard do the pull.

You didnt provide anything special in your example of how to run necro in coe. All things could of been done by another class or not done at all. And you could of done the important things you mentioned with dps utilities and weapons. The one thing that you pointed out that I agree with is good is well of corruption on the golem. But again its not needed. A mesmer more than covers the boons permanently and WoC only provides 6 seconds of boon clear combat. With that uptime in a pug it will barely scratch his hp. Best way to do husk is to get a mesmer to solo it, its much faster, no need to aoe the bushes when you can hit them about 3 times with dagger and they are gone.

Well… the reality of one persone is always chained to the experience he or she underwent. This is semantics to say: I can only speak about what I’ve experienced, just like you do.
With PuG, in CoE, I know that my powernecro outperform my zerkwarrior, and this isn’t a thesis, or a thought, but a fact, based on all the runs I’ve done in CoE.
Can this apply to every dungeon, or every teams, or even every runs of CoE with necros? Certanly not and I’m not saying this. What I’m saying is: I can contribute in a more positive way in CoE as a necro than a warr, and because I’m not cheating this can be done by others necros too.
Which is somewhere in the middle ground between “Necros Rulez” and “Necro are selfish”.

Before continuing anyway, ty for reading all my post on my necro in CoE.

The fact you facepalmed at the fist Alpha made my smile, because I remebered every PuGs with a ranger or a mesmer incable to wrap their heads around the simple fact of pushing Alpha in the kitten corner. Is fear and charge (it stuns Alpha back a little) the best way to do it? No, but it can be done and it’s a safety for every missed push at Alpha.
After enough time, It has become almost natural and from time to time, if the team slacks a little too much, I do it in autopilot.
For the AoE on bushes, using wells you can clear them without dropping the weapon to hack the bots, saving time and forces, something that can not be done by a warr, for instance.
Sure, you can solo it, but a full team can surely do it faster…

And again, mesmer and necros are different: they complete each other, so much in fact that while forming a party for CoE, I would pick 3 warr, 1 mes and a powernecro over 4 warr and a mes. The team can only benefit from it, or so I’ve experienced.

spoj.9672:

They are inefficent and if you think tanking is an important part of pve then you really need to learn more about the game your playing. They arent taken in any speed records or fast groups because they have nothing worth taking. An underwater dungeon might change that but thats about the only place necro excels.

“The L2P” arguments doesn’t offer a thing to this discussion: I’m trying to explain my reasons, not to attack your preferences.
Your first thesis was that necros are selfish, because they don’t contribute to teamplay. Nike first, me second, described 2 ways where necros contribute in a positive way to teamplay.
Your rebuttal was other classes can do better: I’m trying to explain why and where I don’t think this and to describe a situation where I experienced that necros do better for teamplay. Still not convinced? Meh, no problem… I think we can still enjoy necros without chopping our hands off.

wiazabi.2549:

@Mander.6924

How is a power necro better for coe than a warrior? i mean cleave is great to have in there for crystals or the console thingy etc.

Any tips is welcome but i always swap to my warrior for well everything now :< same with other necro in guild that swap to mesmer / warrior or guardian.

I don’t know what build you’re using, so your experience may be different than mine.
Anyway I’m more than happy to share: the build I’m using? It works best when the entire team stacks and gangs up, which is practically how you fight all CoE, from mobs to bosses.
After the first wp, which I hope doesn’t need an explanation, you will face the first fight with Alpha: fear and or charge with flesh golem will put him in the corner, if aimed correctly (a safeguard if you don’t have any other measure to put him there).
After that, Well of Power will change for 6 seconds every burning Alpha gives in Aegis and every bleeding in Vigor, which are good for dodging Alpha and maul him in the next age. One cast of Well of Suffering+ Well of Corruption (for the raw damage) is all you need to win the fight with a good team. If DPS is lacking, you can use dodge twice and switch to DS the third time to stay in the fight, and keep hitting him to death.
Debatable, but I think that a supply of vigor + raw damage (30k combo) here works a little better than a banner. I’ve experienced that with a competent team you can melt Alpha faster with 3 warr+1 powernecro, than with 4 warr. Add a mes to the team (for time warp) and Alpha sublimate in thin air.
The team doesn’t stack or Alpha moves? Use dark pact (dagger 3) to chain him to the ground and give time to your team to stack on him again, or chain him beforhand to be sure, your choice.
A similar scheme apply almost for every next fight with Alpha, but with an advantage: messing the stack is harder in the 2nd and 3rd fight, so you can employ staff marks to nuke him and Flesh Golems to its full potential, inflicting all the damage Charge can give on a single target (the point is Charge inflict damage until Flesh Golem is on the target, but if Alpha is with its back on the wall, Flesh Golem can’t run past him and will inflict damage for all charge duration, keeping him knocked down).
In 2nd and 3rd fight, prepare marks with staff (not 5, that gives fear), switch to your main weapons (I use twin daggers, but dagger+focus is viable too) and deploy wells. DS, stack as much might you can with Reaper’s Might, switch back to normal and you should have Wells ready to be deployed again.
Raw damage, control condition, transmute condition, weakness, blind and stun in one single package. It does give boon with well of power, and you can stay in fight… enough?

Against T-B34RC3 well of corruption is very nice, because the boss strenght becomes its worst weakness: leave the turrets on, and while they pump him full of boons, you can laugh at him while conditions spawn on him like mushrooms (and because the turrets give boons on timed intervals, you can intercept them with timing).
If you have to hack, the situation is a little worse, but a very careful use of wells, dagger and golem charge can give you the room to defend console, while the team hack (done only once with 1-4. Not easy, but it can be done).

After that, you will have Bjarl in p1: well of power will rid of that pesky bleeding on you and your squad, while the team pummel him, and Golem charge will keep him pinned a little more.

In P2 you’ve the Evolved Husk: well of suffering will prune the bushes away, while you divert bots on him. Meaning you’re the owner of your corner, and you don’t need help that can be spared on your squad. Send Golem to charge the Husk to keep him occupied. Granted, it’s a short time measure, but it’s a good way to start and finish the fight.

In P3 you’ve the champion destroyer, which is very similar to Alpha, with the advantage that he doesn’t move: deploy wells and you can sustain damage even while dodging.

In the end, the little DPS shortage of swapping one necro for one warr, in CoE at least, and based on my experience, is more than paid back by the sheer control of status effect and stun you can grant to your team, helping them to win faster and dishing out pain at the same time.
All of this has been done always with PUGs, not a single organized team, with many setup… how many runs? Enough to buy almost all the weapons of my 5 characters with CoE tokens + 1 completed armor. Let’s just say enough.
Hope to be of help.

Sorry If I have to cut some quotes, but the debate is getting so interesting that the allowed lenght isn’t enough anymore…

“Converting conditions to boons is nice yes. But its certainly not needed and in most cases makes no difference.”
Debatable: are boons in general needed to win a fight? No. We could win a battle by attrition. Why we abuse them? Because it makes a battle 100 times faster and enjoyable. With necros wells, the timing is crucial: banners can be deployed anytime, while converting condition or corrupting boons wells not. And that’s one of the reasons why I think a good necro is a little harder to master: you need to learn enemy patterns.
“Makes no difference”? Again I disagree, based on experience, because wells do save teammates after bosses spam conditions on them, especially poison and bleeding.

Well true, they dont have to sacrifice much to take those wells. But wasting a utility slot with a stupidly high cooldown ability that is replaceable by someone else in the group with a better utility is kind of meh… My build always has WoS and signet of spite because without them my dps would be much lower. I have one free slot for utility and thats all im willing to sacrifice in most situations.

Different build maybe or different playstyle: I roll usually with WoS, WoC, signet of locust/ WoP. I can’t say I tried every combination and build with necro, but what I found with some luck and experimentation give me the same satisfaction of my GS zerk warr: and from experience, I can say there are some dungeons and bosses, where my Necro outperform my Warr (CoE for instance, but finding a PuG team welcoming a powernecro is hard and leave a bitter taste, but this is another story).

Comparing wells with banners is a really poor idea. Banners have very little downtime compared to cooldown and the downtime they have is usually while you are running to the next boss/fight. Wells however last 6 seconds at the start of a fight. They can only be used once for trash and for bosses 1-3 times max because of their cooldowns. Pulsing doesnt make it good, its still high cooldown and not sustained. A mesmer can just auto attack with sword, create sword clones which do the same and summon phantasmal disenchanters. That results in permanent sustained boon removal. Necro cant compete with that. Plus mesmers have null field which is kind of like WoP + WoC combined but with a lower cooldown and longer duration.

I could say the same about comparing necro and mes: can a mes tank as much as a necro? Or do the same AoE damage?
Am I trying to say necro>mesmer? No, of course not. But, I would like to point out how different they are, enough that saying mesmer> necro is really a poor idea too.
Necros have their own strenght, as all the classes, but I don’t think, from experience, that they are the inefficent class or the worst one around.
Are they perfect? No. They don’t have cleave, for instance. But surely they aren’t weak, selfish or inefficent. And surely as hell they aren’t per se less efficent for teamplay than other classes.
It’s mostly the player that makes the difference with builds and game. Not the class.

Necros are selfish in that they provide no group buffs or support other than condition debuffs, some high cooldown condition cleanse and high cooldown dark fields. Of which only dark fields are good and unique to the class. The debuffs are mostly useless in pve. The condition cleansing can be done better with lower cooldowns and less sacrifices from pretty much all classes.

No group buff or support with condition removals+ raw damage? Considering the unholy devastation conditions make to teams when bosses inflicts it, I beg to disagree: I’ve seen enough teams wipe by poison or bleeding, to know how useful a condition removal, or better yet, a converting condition well, can be (which I think is a necro unique ability).

The zerker builds for the classes you mentioned arent selfish at all. They all provide something useful to the group without sacrificing dps. Warrior has the best group buffs in the game with banners, empower allies and boons. Guardian has very good dps along with lots of defensive utility. Mesmer has an incredible range of utility. Ele has the highest damage in the game and can provide might, fury and vuln for the entire group.

True at 66%: as every classes, warr provide boons to the team only when they aren’t playing selfish, which is the point I was trying to do. A warrior who doesn’t use banners opting for signet is a selfish warriors. Same for necros.
And as for other classes, necros don’t have to sacrifice DPS to be helpful: well of corruption+ well of suffering+ well of power and you have support, damage and condition control in a solid package.

You mentioned about corrupting boons on bosses. Thats pointless seeing as most of those bosses cleanse aswell so you may aswell just strip the boons which a mesmer can do more effectively. Not to mention those bosses reapply boons constantly so you need sustained boon removal which necro doesnt have. Mesmer does though.

Except you are forgetting to say that wells pulse, so after casting, they damage and corrupt for 6/10 seconds, not once. More than enough to turn the tide in a battle while stacking, giving room to breath to your team or to inflict and/or help dealing a DPS rush (nuker or endfight, pick one or both).
And necros wells have a 30/35 seconds cooldown, while warriors banners have 120 cd or 240 for battle standard. You could argue banners give a sustained boons for 90 secs and I could rebuttal wells contribute with raw damage more often, in which case we could agree to disagree or accept that they can coexist wonderfully in teamwork…

Like i said the only useful thing necro has is dark fields. But the issue with them is you often dont want them because you dont want to be overwriting fire fields for might stacks. Why use dark fields for blinds when you can use ele LH to blast a fire field for aoe might and blind at the same time.

Blindness, or to be more precise, well of darkness, isn’t the only possible choice: as things go I don’t use it at all, bringing blindness in battle with dagger offhand.
So I can blast an area with AoE and blind at the same time, and again tanking, a wonderful thing that only few eles can do. To make another metaphor: necros are more guardians than warriors, as eles are more warriors than guardians.

With all due respect to Bawi and Spoj, I think the opinion necro=selfish is pretty biased and a little too widespread. I have a necro as second main and I’ve done lotsa dungeons farming with it, so at least hear me out…
1) FACT: The majority of the necros out there are pet masters. Is pet master a selfish build for a necro? Yes and without a doubt. They are so widespread because pet masters builds are dumb proof and, IMO, quite boring: they shine in exploration and farming but don’t give a kitten about team. Why should they? Minion master Necros make their own team, quite literally. In dungeon they are as useful as a spamming autoattack bearpet ranger, and probably deserve the same spite.

2) Are pet masters builds the only option for a necro? NO. Nike pointed to a supportive role for a necro: a necro who heal, and I would like to add my own, a powernecro build without pets (I use only Flesh Golem and only because it has a short CD and synergize very well when stacking: if the mobs, or the bosses are packed against a wall, they receive damage for all the duration of Charge, from 5k to 20k, depending on situation and defenses).
Basically I roll an initiator nuker, with amazing DPS spike: with the build I’m using I do 30k damage every 35 seconds more o less, and only with utility skills. Is it little or is it lot? But wait, I can tank too, thank to death shroud and in doing so, continuing to do damage while tanking. And this is only the beginning: while attacking in DS, I stack might thanks to Reaper’s Might and I can capitalize on it the moment I exit DS to begin the cycle again and again, to dish out unholy level of damage.
So you have a nuker who does a little less damage than an average zerker warrior, but is more durable. And after the first DS, it becomes stronger. A necro who carry its own weight in the fight, who stands in the front line with warriors and guardians, and is more than capable than taking hits for the team.
And this is without the crowd control and the condition damage, the poison, weakness, bleeding and blinding, it comes with the package, which I admit works less well against bosses (blinding, binding and weakness excluded)

3) Where does a powernecro help his team, other than being a tanker and a heavy hitter?
I like to think at my necro as the other side of the coin where the head is memser. Where the mesmer is better suited in buffing and assisting his team, the necro weaken and debuff the enemy, not only with condition but corrupting his boons, opposite of the mesmer who steal or copy them.
Corruption is an amazing ability, one can turn the tide in seconds: every enemy, boss (T-B34RC3 in CoE for instance, Ginva in HotW or the Legendary Searing Effigy in CoF ) who loves to buff himself will crumble to dust while his boons become weakness and such.
One other way to use it is a condition clenear: Well of power+ Plague signet and Consume Condition will keep you and your team alive, fit and powerful against every kitten who dare to use conditions on you and your team. The only thing a powernecro doesn’t have? Cleave. Necros do amazing AoE damage, but don’t have the cleave in melee that others classes have, but it’s hardly a fault.

4) Are powernecros hard to grasp? Harder than most, for sure, and maybe this is the reason why we see so few good necros around. They require timing to use and traning (you’re going to tank with a light armored class and in the beginning, your brain will scream to pull out automatically).
But are necros selfish? Only if you use them with selfish build, as every zerk warr can be, as every guardian and ele and mes. But this isn’t the way necros should be or have to be.
Are there better class out there? It’s like to compare ice cream and chips: necros are necros and what they do is different from other classes, while being more than an asset to the team.

5) Are Necros fun to use?
A walking death machine, a powerhouse, a dreaded knight in the face of the enemy, a caring supporter and a kitten looking class with skull and bones everywhere… sounds pretty kitten right to me.
Or at least OP, so was for me.

Olaf Hrafnsson- Norn Necromancer

For a necro like him, the corpses and the spirits of his ancestors aren’t just flesh and bones to be honored. They are a legacy to be studied and a constant source of inspiration.
So, Olaf is a fitting name, because it means: “ancestor’s heirloom”, while Hrafnsson means son of the Raven, the spirit who have shared with him the knowledge of the planes.

Because Necros are master of life and death.
Because we don’t pull our punches when we kill: we tear your souls apart (cookie for reference) and use them to reshape flesh and bones as we see fit.
Because a nuker necro does more spike damage than the average zerker warrior and inflicts conditions + corrupt boons: in dungeons (and PvE), bosses don’t simply melt.
They sublimate.

Because, even with a dagger, necro can stay in melee, (ab)using death shroud to tank, cleaning at the same time a room of mobs.
Because jet black/iron grey armor, with skull and bones everywhere, is pretty kitten.

Fungalfoot.7213:

I don’t care if it’s greatsword or hammer but we need melee cleave.

^^
GS, Hammer, Sword, Mace…. everything is fine really, but as necro we need that kitten melee cleave. Staff and minions? Not for me, ty: full power, melee and wells.
Hell! I’ll be happy even with daggers cleave and no new weapons: hardly OP.

“A lot of people want the great sword for its impressiveness…”
You make it sounds like a bad thing.

Joking aside, only Necro and Eng can’t use a sweet sweet BFS or just a normal sword (eles can conjure everything from axes to bows…), but at least engies have rifles and other decent ranged choices (staff autoattack with necros is shameful, imo: I keep it only for roaming and skipping mobs with fear).
I red the thread you linked and GS remains my first wish (the knock back suggestion picked my interest a lot).
I would like to see for a GS necro something like this:
“1” a chain attack (with bleeding or weakness stacking and cleave for last)
“2” something like the “mind stab” of mesmers, which should immobilize, cripple or corrupts 1 boon (area effect).
“3” fear for crowd control (only one target at a time).
“4” Brutal strike +spawn ability. Something like: "If you kill the target with it, spawn 1/2 bone minion(s). Use it again for putrid explosion(s).
“5” Something like the rangers “counterattack” but without the throw, just block the incoming attack and, if successfull, push back (area effect) and gain life force.

Edit: btw, what 100b is, if I may ask? 0.ò

I roll a powernecro (I call it the necromonger: nuker and sustained DPS).
I’m always first in the frontline, face to face and blood to blood with the mobs… and I’ve to do it with daggers. Don’t misunderstand me, they are awesome for crowd control and to melee in general but…
But I dream the day when my norn necro will fight with a greatsword: waving something stupidly big (Godskull Slayer, Kodan GS, Nightmare GS, Norn GS…) in the flesh of the enemy, rendering bodies only to rise them again with just a slash, crushing their spirits and their souls with fear, sending plagues of hungry locusts to bleed them and feed me…
Just add a venom or burst skill (eye of Grenth? Grenthlazer?) and it’s already a complete set for a GS…

^Playing with names and the white color of her fur, I would say Bonefire…
But it has to fit with her Legion, so if Ash maybe… Pyresmoke? Bonesmoke? Darksmoke?
Something like that.
Dunno about Iron… an Ele wouldn’t fit very well with engs and tinkerers, imo.

9/10- Marris sound a little strange for a Charr: need more hard sillabes.

Name: Raksha Pyreguard (former Pyrespark warband)
Elementalist.
The Blood Legion is her mother. Clement Forktail her father: she was born in the Flame Legion’s Fahrar and she will do everything in her power to erase the stigma.
She needed to kill twice the score of Flame legionnaires just to earn the command of a warband and Legionnaire Steelbane send her to the Pyrespark. A sad joke: Pyrespark was the cesspool of the Blood Legion, where every loose cannons and rebel soldiers were expected to die soon, sparing headaches to the higher ups (the life expectancy in the Pyrespark was literally that of a spark)
She survived: because she’s tough and she didn’t want to die. Because she don’t want to see her companions die anymore.
After killing Steelbane, she used his tail to shape sheaths for her daggers, as moniker for everyone else: she don’t forgive and don’t forget those who waste Blood lives.
She has but one dream: to prove that powerful magic is as good as BFS for the Black Citadel and to have her existance acknowledged, becoming a tribune for the Blood Legion.
Under her command, the former Pyrespark is now the Pyreguard: an elite unit of magic users Charr, skilled in fighting Flame Legions with the same weapons.
After the defecting of her father from the Flame Legion, she is conflicted with the ideas she had of him… and with her new emotions:
“The price you pay for bringing up my heritage as a negative is: I collect your kittening tail!”

She’s the (mean) mother of her men (or maybe the big sister), but she has a soft center: two to be precise. She’s a glutton for cheesy meat and strong whisky (her tiger charr backpack is always full of them) and she is thirsty for powerful magic knowledge. The Durmand Priory was an easy choice…

According to lore, the seed of the Pale tree was one among many, found in a hidden cave by a soldier named Ronan. “One among many”… this is what bothered me for a while: if Mordremoth would have wanted to seed its minion to overpower the races of Tyria, keeping all the eggs in the same basket seems unwise, especially because the seed were, by definition, defenseless (Ronan picked one of them with no problem at all).
So something, or someone, could have wasted years, or even centuries, collecting the seeds of Mordremoth champions. Why bother with that? Because, if you have the power to cleanse the corruption of the dragons, you could create virtually an endless army to fight them in a very short time (decades instead of millennia), using the very weapons the Dragon created against them….
Do you see where I’m going?
If the Forgottens enter the equation (and we know they are capable and well versed in meddling with the dragons ), many things become much more clear. What Ronan found, was a Forgotten Vault where the cleansed seeds were safely stored for future uses. The Ventari Tablets are…like the first words the Pale Tree understood, the first nourishment it received, not what cleansed it. Something the Pale tree choose for itself, after being freed from the Forgotten Vault.
And this would explain why Malyck is… not so different from the Sylvari of the Pale tree: he isn’t. He just miss the Dream of his tree, but there is more than one explanation for this (he could be the firstborn of his tree, for instance).
And this thesis would explain somehow the Nightmare Court too: they aren’t feral like the other Dragon minions, because they are born after the cleansing of their tree. They hear Mordremoth’s call (like Glint did with Kralkatorrik) and accept it (instead of refusing it like the Dreamers), but they keep their own individuality, because it’s shielded by what cleansed the seeds. The Nightmare Court itself isn’t aligned with Mordremoth either (as far as we know): they are xenophobic, violent and isolationist, hell bent on removing the Ventari tablets from the Pale trees roots, because the idea that a centaur could give laws to the Sylvari makes them sick.

And for last, the idea that something cleansed the seeds of the Pale trees beforehand, would explain too why we don’t know anything about Mordremoth, even if its champions are growing: the elder dragons prosper on the magic they can devour, by themself or through their minions. Because the Sylvari don’t consume magic (thanks to the cleansing of the seeds) Mordremoth is starving somewhere in a weakened state where its power are limited and its force sealed… an easy prey for the Pact, and likely our next target as players.

I do believe Sylvari are linked to Mordremoth, but with a twist…

First things first: Imo, trying to find a connection between the Sylvari and Melandru is a faux paux, because if we accept Melandru created the Sylvari, we have two problems:
1) Why only Melandru? Why don’t the other gods created each a race to receive their magic/ be the new favorite? If we accept one of the human god as a creator of a new race, we have to use the same standard for the others. So, we should have the race of Dwayna, Kormir and so on… which it’s not the case at all.
Plus, as far as we know, not even the human gods can create a race (they can create, at most, simpler creatures like the oakhearts): the humans aren’t their creation, they moved them on Tyria in ancient time from another place.
2) I have some problems with time line + Sylvari growth as a society. In short: the Sylvari nation is 25 years old and it’s already competing with others, more powerful races, and not only in technology, but economically too (Sylvari luxury items are the new black in LA, at least from in game dialogue).
It seems too much for a new race with free will granted by a benevolent god… I see more an awakening giant who is preparing for war. So at most, the theory of the Sylvari created from Tyria itself to fight dragons has much more sense, to me, even if it seems a little dull…

But onward with my baseless speculation…
I wish to believe it exists a connection between Mordremoth and the Sylvari because… well it works, but I agree we have circumstantial evidence at most for now. Even if circumstantial however, they are a little too widespread to be just simple coincidences: the Sylvari can’t be branded like the other races, the Sylvari are fruitless like the minions of the other elder dragons and the Dream collect all the experience the Sylvari gather, in a way not so different from Zhaitan and its risens… and so on.
But I refuse to believe, the Ventari tablets are what cleansed the Pale Tree: otherwise, Malyck would have been a feral Sylvari subdued on Mordremoth will, so a lot less “civilized” and open to discussion than what we see in game.
I believe we have, or had, a third party who attended the seeds of the Pale trees (The Grove and the one who gave birth to Malyck): tell me what you think about my thesis.

^Sylvari females prefer males with more bark than bite…

hedix.1986:

Mander.6924:

I’m willingly and able to do P4: truth is, it’s almost the only arah path I do. XD
Eu servers, so if you’re interested I’ll take you to Arah p4 for free.

• Hermione hand raising * Me, me, pick me!
  Also Eu, also looking for a group for p4. Will /w you ingame so we can set a time for this.

You’re welcome to P4: every one of you in EU servers is welcome! For free of course
But…
But you have to know how to fight Lupicus: P4 is long and stressfull. I will not take Arah rookies to P4. Ever!

EU or NA servers?
I’m on EU. Whisper me if interested…

I’m willingly and able to do P4: truth is, it’s almost the only arah path I do. XD
Eu servers, so if you’re interested I’ll take you to Arah p4 for free.