Guild Wars 2

2-3 bunkers, a Mesmer and a Thief/War

Is that still the meta? Have the bunkers been nerfed at all?

I notice that they’re still not separating PvE and PvP skills, which simply will not work.

I agree with the Quickness nerf, long overdue.

I always love it when threads defending Thieves don’t get deleted, like we need them. Lol.

No, Thieves are OP, and the only ones defending Thieves are Thief players.

This is the most common response from those Thief defenders and players. Yet, the Thief class in and of itself takes the least amount of skill and effort to pull off the largest spike damage numbers.

Some Thieves have even stated that they are a great counter to bunker builds, and thus necessary. Yet they forget the x amount of other builds that they stomp on their way to the bunker. This statement alone lets you know that only 2 builds are viable, spike dmg (Thieves) and bunkers (Eles, Guards, etc), thus filtering down the “dynamic” PvP.

This game has much more potential than is given credit for, but as long as devs continue to drag their feet on obvious issues and the community leaves in droves because they’re getting tired of Thief Wars, it will never reach it’s full potential.

Some of my posts and some others’ have been deleted, especially when certain trolls type in “blah blah thieves are fine blah blah /reported”.

The thieves thing is just an example. :p

So do moderators actually read posts and decide whether to delete them or not, or are they automated based on 1-5 reports?

I think you can see how this could cause a problem.

It’s sad that this thread is still up. Speaks volumes about the current opinion of Anet.

Anyway, your QQ thread about QQ’s is unnecessary and plain stupid. You don’t even mention what class you main, and how easy it is for you to deal with all these things (I’m going to assume you play Guardian, which effectively counters everything in this game).

Either way, if you ever bothered to play the rest of the classes, you would see that they do not have the same options of Aegis and Stability like the Guardians so readily do.

You only get 2 Dodges, while most of the abilities you mentioned can be spammed.

Whenever somebody makes a thread (like me), it is usually about how effective something is vs the effort it takes to do it.

I could tell you I made a Thief and was owning both in sPvP and tPvP, but you probably wouldn’t believe me.

I will tell you I’m going to make a Guardian and show everybody via video how I dance at a point while my opponents throw everything at me.

Maybe it’s time for a pure Thief BS video? My last one only contained half of Thieves BS…

It’s hard to convince a Thief that his high damage is not justified because of his so called low survivability. In my experience, average Thieves will die after trying to insta-gib, while good Thieves will gtfo via Stealth, thus negating the statement “If I miss, I die.”

I wonder what the most talked about class is on the forums, and why?

Which class had their own stickied thread?

Which class could do over 10k damage, with 1 skill, and still have the nerve to complain about blowing their load and not surviving?

Which class has arguably the best survival mechanic (Stealth) in the game?

Which class has the lowest skill requirement to use, yet be more effective and useful than half the classes in the game?

I too, have a confession to make… I made a Thief today and played some tPvP… and omfg, the ownage and the feeling and the dancing… It was euphoria.

I see I touched a nerve.

And Heartseeker is a gap closing, do more dmg the less health your opponent has spammable ability. What is the drawback to Heartseeker?

Seether, I will personally pm you with a link to my Youtube video. You will enjoy it.

You misunderstand, o Thief lovers.

I’m not talking about locking out every other Thief skill except for the Auto-attack.

There’s a large difference between the Thief class and all the others: No CD’s. This gives you the freedom to spam your most powerful skills.

The revamp would only help to make you make smarter decisions.

What if a Thief had to use some skills or auto attacks in order to build up initiative, instead of having a full bar from the start and it being regenerated over time?

It’d kind of work like the Death Shroud of the Necro, where certain skills grant you x% of Life Force.

Then, Thieves wouldn’t be so gimmicky and would actually have to have a certain rotation of skills or plan when going in to a battle, instead of just 22222222herp222222 (I exaggerate, of course. :p)

This way, nobody can say, “I blew my load! I’m dead now!”, like they like to use as their excuse for their high burst.

I can understand why some Thieves would be against this idea, as it would significantly increase the skill level required to use it. You know, putting it up to par with an Engineer, Ele, or a Necro.

Waggle.8209:

Highlet.8039:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Stun breaker doesnt remove imobilize

Yes, it does.

No, it doesn’t. I use mist form all the time which is a stun breaker and it definitely does not break immobilize.

Yes, Immobilize is considered to be a Condition, therefore Stun breakers will not work on it.

You guys, it’s ok. You will never convince people like Seether that there is anything wrong with INSTANT HIGHEST BURST DAMAGE in the game.

These people are obviously on the giving end, not the receiving end.

@Seether

I need a couple of days. I’ve actually been playing some War Z.

Sniper Rifles = OP. :P

Did you even look at the Thieves Discussion thread that is stickied before posting this? :/

@Parakeet

So, essentially, everybody is forced to bring along a Guardian, as if we’re talking about bringing a healer to a dungeon.

Out of the 8 possible classes, a variation of balanced, CC, burst, or condition builds, and only 5 people, everybody should make sure to bring along at least 2 Guardians (or bunkers) to help hold down your natural and mid, thus funneling out at least 40% of your possible team composition and variety.

I blame the game type too. But do bunkers really have to be so effective at what they do? Why do your opponents have to get punished if they don’t have any bunkers in their team composition?

Some people have mentioned that “If you nerf bunkers, all you’ll have left are burst builds to compete against each other.”

I politely disagree.

I believe, that if bunkers were not so effective, you would see a larger variety of team compositions and a better chance for those compositions to shine rather than having the standard 2+ bunkers.

“except complaints about what FOTM build/skill is giving people headache. First it was 100b warriors, then Mesmers who Moa you for 10 mins whilst owning you with multiple illusions/phantasms/whatever, then thieves who backstab who 1-2 shot you, and now finally it’s unkillable bunker builds – so in two months the overall gist of the forums has gone from “too much burst damage” to “not enough burst damage”… "

There are a very few warriors that go outside the 100b, only because it is so effective, even in a team format.

Mesmers’ Moa still hasn’t been touched, and it should have been.

Assassin’s Signet nerf was necessary. Now Thieves can actually rely on other builds because of the boost of 15% for 5 attacks, if they so choose to use this particular signet.

Bunkers have been talked about since the beginning. I know, because I was there.

“Its amazing how so many of these “imbalances” disappear when you actually work together.”

I agree, going 2 v 1 or 3 v 1 does fix most of these imbalances. See what I did there?

For me, the reason I come on forums and talk about things that I believe are causing problems is because I care, enjoy, and want to keep playing this game for a long time to come.

If I come on the forums, and I present an issue, would you be so kind as to provide me with a solution?

“Less QQ, more Pew Pew” and “L2P” are lazy responses, to say the least, and just serve to tell me that you don’t care enough about the game or others in the game to provide a viable solution.

And I’m an Anet fanboy too.

Anet, this is a great opportunity for you to come in and give us your thoughts and plans on these types of things.

I do understand you want to put out paid tournaments asap because most of the community wants something different in PvP, but don’t be reluctant to talk to your community about your vision for PvP.

@GankSinatra

I see 3 bunkers more than I do 2 bunkers, only because they will leave 1 at their natural, and 2 at midpoint. We down one (finally), and the other 1 rezzes him because he’s got Stability.

Personally, I wish they’d lower your starting HP when you get downed. As it stands now, players who are downed can get rezzed faster than they can get finished (in most cases). But that’s just personal opinion.

@Kalar Meadia

A bunker who is only prolonging the fight until his roamer teammate arrives speaks volumes about how bunkers are just plain very effective at staying alive.

Again, do we know that this is intended? No.

Is my personal opinion that they need to be toned down in order for an opponent to have a better chance? Yes.

What is the actual drawback to a player playing as bunker that can survive long enough until his team mates arrive? Nothing. It’s too effective as it is. Sorry.

There is no drawback to having a bunker sit on a point in a competitive game, other than sheer boredom for said bunker. All he has to do is survive long until his teammates come to help. That’s it. That’s all they’re there for. So in your opinion, you may consider this “GOOD” gameplay", but to me it sounds like a PvE version of a mini boss or something. It’s just plain ridiculous.

@Zzod

Thank you for coming in and admitting something like that about your class. It speaks volumes about your character, as not many players would do the same thing, but would rather raise cries of defense to keep things as they are, which are causing issues.

Server #225. Come and play.

RustyEyeballs.8927:

I have to agree with Merciless. The current Meta is of extremes. You’re usually bunker or glass cannon and this is not fun or balanced. As in, its not fun to bunker and, many more balanced (offensively/defensively) classes/specs have a very hard time being viable. Either way, I think Anet has said they’re already looking into this and a full defensive build is not intended.

Merciless it seems you’ve made posts like this before and, I think you might benefit from the question, “How long do I wait until I quit or this gets fixed?”. I vote don’t even suffer through it. Play something else because, what if it’s never fixed?

I don’t know, man. Sometimes I do feel like I’m suffering through the kitten in the game. Lol. But this is why I wish the devs were a little more open about their vision and what they’re trying to achieve.

In my opinion, bunkers are too strong. But what if they want to keep bunkers in the current state? Nobody really knows, because nobody really says anything. :/

Look, we can go back and forth all day on whether every class should be able to 1 v 1 everybody else or if it’s ok in it’s current state where for some builds you need more than 1 person to defeat them (my opinion is that this is wrong).

But as it stands currently, the fact of the matter is that bunker builds (certain ones) are very, very effective in what they do. I am not so sure that this is intended, but I do not know.

I can only speak from personal experience of x amount of Tournament games that, more than 90% of the time, the team that had more bunkers won.

@Noctred

I was speaking in relation to his strategy of 1 DPS and 1 CC. But thank you for the pointers either way.

And I never said anything was impossible. But nice try trying to discredit what I’m saying.

@aydenunited

So, in your opinion, you should be using 2 people to take 1 bunker down? 1 to CC him, and the other to DPS him? Why does this sound like a PvE boss or something?

Have you ever seen 2 Bunkers on a mid point? I have. A lot. Down 1, the other rezzes him while having Stability on. Back to square 1. So now it becomes a matter of 4 v 2.

Do you see the problem here?

Of course the meta won’t change overnight, but the Halloween patch didn’t do much to dissuade the current one, therefore it is still the same story.

“However, in a capture and hold, bunkers and roamers are going to be powerful no matter what, because that’s’ the core design of the game type. It has little or nothing to do with power of bunkers in sPvP”

Of course there will be bunkers and roamers. I never asked for a pure burst vs burst game. But the power of bunkers negatively affects the outcome of the match when they are so very effective at what they do.

It’s amazing how many people say, “Well, you shouldn’t 1 v 1 a bunker, noob!”

Ok… how is this alright in a competitive game type where, out of 5 people, we need at least 2 to kill one of our opponents?

“Teamwork, communication, etc, noob!”

Great, we have all that. That still doesn’t change the fact that it takes at least 2 of us vs a bunker way too long to capture 1 node out of the 3 .

I don’t know how many times I heard in TS or Vent, “Just kitten that node, that bunker’s got it, it’ll take too long. Let’s try the other 2.”

Not ok in a competitive game.

And you sound like all the Thieves did about the Backstab bullkitten. “BS’s fine, l2p, blah, blah, blah”

You can rant, Eduardo, but… it’s kind of pointless here.

In your (leet?) mind, what is the difference between a constructive post and a QQ post?

I never mentioned the Backstab nerf. I made another thread about it Sunday night before the patch hit. I agree with the Backstab nerf. Now, everybody will actually have time to react to other skills rather than getting 1-shotted by an invisible skill.

And I don’t see it as Anet saying “dudes, less QQ, more tufness/blocks/stunbreaks/l2p”. Unless that is an actual quote from an Anet dev. If not, please don’t put things like that in quotes.

In the second half of your post, you say “to give you guys some more time to react”, thus putting yourself above the rest of us lowbies because in your eyes we should have been fast enough to dodge you while you teleported right next to us invisible and pressed 1 button. It sounds condescending.

And you don’t mention anything about bunkers, and you don’t refer to my post at all, other than to say that it’s a QQ post, which, again, is condescending.

But thank you for the free bump.

valdamus.6289:

“GustavoM

As someone who mains a Guardian for more than 200 PvP matches.
Nerf It by 50% of the current time for all buffs or as the skill description says, when an ally has a condition, and not everytime by himself, etc.
Mix It with the support tome, and It’s literally /godmode for palad—- Guardians.
(ps: I don’t use this shout and never plan to do so.)"

Thanks for your brilliant suggestion.. asshloe.

anyone else feels the need to complain about guardians anymore while devs take notes??

Exploit much?

Warriors got buffed.

You will never ever convince a Thief player that he is being carried by his class.

Vim.7318:

At least we are consistently bad at everything. :P If we were really awesome downed our class might play better if we deliberately get knocked down. :P

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Lmao. You made me tear up.

I’m going back to Mesmer now.

Numot.3965:

Hard control generally gives bunkers a hard time. Unless they have stability all the time (and thanks to some changes, that’s harder to accomplish) you can interrupt key skills and depending on the profession/build, just move them off the point and cap it anyway. The other option is to just have a heavy pressure build force them out of cool downs.

Control though isn’t some easy archetype to play, since you need to know what a lot of key abilities look like, and know when to apply your methods. You also need good reflexes, and the ability to think ahead of your foe. Since it isn’t about making big numbers or really being flashy people aren’t drawn to it.

The reason bunkers are so strong is cause for about the past 2 months almost everyone has been trying to run explosive, blow-all-your-cool-downs-to-score-kills builds, rather than exploring more balanced or unconventional builds. People blow all their crap, bunker brick-walls, and then you die cause you’re out of steam. Then, people think they don’t do enough damage. When the real problem is the delivery of that damage and how you actually put the hurt on people makes a huge difference.

No, you shouldn’t blow all your CD’s and expect magic to happen.

But look at it this way. While I’m paying attention to the bunker and what boons he has up (Stability, Aegis, Retal, etc) and timing my skills accordingly, he’s more focused on his CD’s and his own health bar, therefore I’m really playing against the bunkers’ boons (or turrets, in some cases) rather than the player himself.

He does not have to put much effort in to actually playing against me, other than dodging MOA (if Mesmer).

So then it doesn’t even come down to (x played better/is more skillful than y, therefore x beats y). It’s more like the bunker is playing the game of (z is off of CD, activate now).

3 bunkers, 1 DPS, and 1 Roamer.

Overall, a great patch and a step in the right direction. I saw that some skills have become unblockable, the block bug was fixed (A lot of Guardians were exploiting it, no matter what they tell you) and “Save Yourselves” is a lot better.

Having said that, tho, bunkers are still incredibly strong, and so still much needed in a tPvP format.

Now, it is a Domination game type, and I am understanding of the fact that point defenders are needed in this type of format. But you have to see what the rest of us are seeing when it comes to dealing with them.

1 v 1, your chances are very slim to none in defeating a bunker.

2 v 1, your chances increase significantly, but it is still considered to be more of a duel than pure ownage, in relation to the time and effort it takes to down the bunker. And even then, we’re still not able to down them sometimes.

I have seen great bunkers survive 3 v 1’s, but I put that blame on myself and my 2 other team mates (who are usually pugs) because we don’t really coordinate our attacks; we still treat it as 1 v 1.

Since it is only 5 v 5, this puts your team at a great disadvantage if you have to consider manpower and time in taking away a node from just 1 player, let alone having the roamer come in and help (which, there are some great ones out there).

My personal opinion is that bunkers negatively impact the whole game (PvP), the competitiveness, and the outcome of the match because the focus is only placed on surviving, not outplaying your opponent.

I really don’t want this to be Bunker Wars 2, but in the current meta, there’s at least 2 pure bunkers, 2 DPS, and 1 Roamer, or even 3 bunkers, 1 DPS, and 1 roamer.

Either way, the focus is still the bunker builds. And Eles, as ridiculous as their bunker builds are, just got buffed too. :/

I predict Pistol Whip will make a comeback now, since it got nerfed by 15%. But we will see.

Thief

Assassin’s Signet: This skill has been updated to grant 15% damage for 5 attacks rather than 50% damage for one attack.

Nice. But I guess the rendering bug(?) is hard to fix, where they stay in Stealth longer than they should on the opponent’s screen. Understandable.

We will see what this does. GG and GLHF

Burrid.4739:

Oh ok, guess I’ll just try to avoid thief.

Me and you both, buddy. Me and you both.

Would you mind if I made a video titled “The Best Thief in the Whole World” and showed off what I could do with just 3 skills?

Then maybe you could relay some tips from that?

See now, there’s really no convincing to be made against all the Thieves, or most any other class that is considered OP in any other MMO.

If you get the nerf bat, you will cry and say that the other players cried too hard and Anet just listened to the whiners and babies and noobs and caved in.

If you don’t get the nerf bat, you will raise up a cry of triumph and lambast me and everybody else who has made it a point to show how ridiculous your class is compared to the others’ in game.

We’ll find out in the next 12-24 hours. I will keep playing the game either way.

Daecollo, these tips sound like they’re coming from somebody who hasn’t really played any other classes other than the Thief class.

Playing guessing games is probably not what they had in mind when designing this game. I believe that.

I don’t use a GS. I play Necro. You don’t have to bring up the Staff to me as AOE’s. I know about them. And how often they work or not.

The Thief is in Stealth right before attacking and in Stealth while running away.

There’s one of many. And look around some more. You’ll see even better examples.

You can also watch my video if you want. And troll along with the other Thieves on the Youtube comments. I never deleted any of them.

(The last 2 clips)

And I g2g to work now for at least 14 hours, so I can no longer be a part of this discussion. I said all I needed to say.

I am just waiting until the patch.

shalmont.2539:

Knyx.5926:

shalmont.2539:

pistol whip gets nerfed, you guys arent content with the fact that they found another spec, you want that nerfed again…. let me ask you O.P do you want what is supposed to be a damage class, to have no damage, would that make you happy?

if they nerf backstab, they will probably figure out another spec, and again… someone somewhere will make another post to please nerf it, until the class is rendered useless.

I do not play a thief in pvp, nor care for it in pvp, but i think people are poking at the class a bit too much, i sometimes die to these burst glassy thieves, i just make sure im aware of his presence and never stop moving.

Well considering they are really complaining about not having time to react, and when I made a thread called " a redesign" of thief that would successfully give them at LEAST 4 extra seconds to react, and they are NOT jumping all over it. It shows that these whiners, and the whining threads are meaningless banter from a small community of players (forum-goers) that are unwilling to adapt and that their complaints are just younglings who want attention.

true, its just hard sometimes not to respond to these post, I really think that arena net needs to make a specific section called “nerf complaints”

because 70% of the post on the front page of the spvp forum is people complaining about other classes and begging for nerfs.

Yes, me and a multitude of other players and forum goers want attention, so we post screen shots and videos as evidence of a class that can do the highest burst damage in the easiest manner.

You say your class deserves to be able to do this because you are so squishy, but whenever you mention squishy, somehow you conveniently forget to mention Stealth. It is mind boggling to me.

I can not target you while you are in Stealth. I do not have a Greatsword that I can swing around randomly hoping to hit you. You run away and reset the fight. Even if I stun locked you for 5 seconds, I can not do the damage that would down you. Even when I try to finish you, first you Teleport, and then you go Invisible for another 3 seconds, thus prolonging the fight even longer, on top of doing insane dmg while downed.

But this is about Backstab, and the insane damage that it does for no effort on your part.

When I say punished, I mean that from the Thieves and the developers side if they decide to not nerf it.

I don’t believe it’s a punishment when an invisible player hits me for over 10k dmg. But that’s just personal opinion.

Do you guys feel like this would be a message from the developers that the Backstab burst is fine and that it is up to the player to get punished (so severely) by not dodging or making a mistake?

Personally, if I see that Thieves are still out putting upwards of 10k dmg, I will just personally switch to Thief. I hate the class, and everything that it can do, but I’d rather be on the giving end than the receiving end. Enough is enough.

Eles and Engineers are 2 of the hardest to master. If you want a challenge, try them.

Rangers have a few builds you can try.

Some of the Necro stuff is still bugged, but I’m maining that now and enjoying it in tPvP.

I suggest you never try Thief. Once you get used to the high burst, and you go to play another class, you’ll be like, “WTF? Why he no insta die?”

Zsymon.8457:

I think it’s a nice change from all the glass cannons, makes things much more interesting when people aren’t getting instagibbed by thieves and uncounterably killed by moa mesmers. I don’t see why you would complain about this, or do you want to downgrade toughness and bunker skills so you can keep facerolling everyone without any resistance? No one will go bunker anymore then and it’ll just be an instagib fest without any kind of tactics or skill.

I’m not asking to faceroll anybody. This isn’t about the bunker as a spec. This is about 5 bunkers as a team.

We already know that some bunkers out there are ridiculous in terms of survival/not dying.

What they did was leave 1 Guardian on point at the Mines and have the Necro back him up from the side. He’d be hiding somewhere until we started fighting.

At keep, same story. 1 Guardian on point, the Engineer supporting from the side.

And the Ele was alone at their Henge.

Yes. You read that right. 5 Bunkers.

Example: 1 goes to Henge, 1 to Keep, 3 to the other side of the map, Mines.

Leave 2 on Mines, 2 on Keep, and 1 on Henge. All bunker builds. GG.

But, but, Condition dmg! Burst dmg!

Umm… no. To counter, you’d need your whole team to be Condition and high Burst (Thieves, Warriors) specced in order to put a dent in their shiny armor of so called skillz. But unfortunately, that isn’t the case 99% of the time.

Went up against 2 Guardians, 1 Ele, 1 Necro, and 1 Engineer. All bunkers.

Is this what it has come to?

To quote the OP, “The only thing a class with high burst does, is blow a set of cds and down you. From here, you can be revived by either your teammates cc mitigation+hard revive, or soft ranged revive abilities. Then, the enemy has blown his load, and you can dispatch of him.”

I’m confused by this logic. So, I should expect to get downed and I should be playing butt buddies during the whole match, where there are 3 points to capture, and only 5 of us?

[quote=479904;Haven.6531:I just started the game…

If anyone thinks a profession is stronger, then just roll one and pvp with it. You automatically get level 80…. Unless I’m missing something entirely.
[/quote]

I don’t believe you just started the game, but I’ll bite.

And you are missing something. The option of 8 classes. That point is moot if everybody just rolls the OP classes because they’re tired of being at a disadvantage.

I don’t think that people spent $60 on this game to just roll 2-3 classes out of the possible 8 in order to be on par with everybody else.

In case you needed more proof. I did see the Thief. He was right in front of me. And in less than 2 seconds, he went in to Stealth, and did that Backstab damage.

You know why it was less than 2 seconds? Because he came to my face, then went Stealth. So all he had to do was step around.