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I like the idea of roles because it is my opinion that when every single role is DPS, it’s boring.
Every character in a dungeon is [DPS+ _. DPS+Banners. DPS+Reflects. DPS+Stealth.
Lets look at it like a math problem. If each side of the equation is dps, we can cancel it out and then you have the roles: Banners/Offensive support, Reflects, Stealth, Defensive Boons etc.
I’ve said it until I’m blue in the face: your traits, class and weapons determine your playstyle. Your gear is simply a reflection of how much damage you intend to have to soak up.
TL;DR: Everyone’s role is dps, regardless of gear. Everyone has to wack on the boss. The actual playstyle is determined by non-gear factors.
As an aside, not regarding your post directly… I see people saying “I don’t want dps to be my playstyle I want a more tanky playstyle.” Do you not understand what this means? This literally means, “I don’t want to contribute my 1/5th of the team dps, and I’d rather not be bothered to dodge most attacks.” When you realize that is what you’re saying, you can imagine a little bit why the reaction from some people is less than positive.
Oh, play style is absolutely affected by non-gear factors — I will not disagree with you there. Like I said earlier, I agree that their content is a large chunk of the problem, Tequatle was literally just a DPS check.
There are a whole lot of different things that change the play style. I don’t particularly think altering gear is going to fix it. I do feel that is it a baby step in the right direction though. All I know is I’m personally sick of DPS dominating all PvE content and I’m ready for the meta to be shook up. Whether changes to gear, changes to content, new content, or deciding that GW2 is no longer the game for me, is what will cure the sickness is yet to be seen
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Just quoting, couldnt say better.
Personally, I think moving towards a pure HP model is going to be more difficult than some people imagine. Not without significant rework in the combat, skills and content systems.
For sure adding things like wardrobes, new skins and revamping rewards can help but ultimately people like to feel their character has evolved and moved on. Not just been able to wear prettier and shinier stuff.
This is where the weakness of GW2 becomes ever more apparent(certainly in PvE) where DPS is king and support and control are very much also rans.
Adding new skills, and methods of capture is indeed a great idea. However these skill are going to need to be useful if they are to move beyond the gotta get em all phase.
If they are DPS skills, people will expect them to be more powerful, if they are support/control skills people are going to expect them to be worth taking over the DPS meta.
All of which, unless content Is going to be trivialised even more will mean that content and encounters will need to be re-worked to ensure these new skills (especially support and control ones) are actually useful.
Basically, unless PvE is re-worked new skills are a temporary fix. An accelerant in the cycle of buff, nerf and power creep.
The other issue is that of build diversity and failure scenario’s. Thanks to a restricted skill set and focus on DPS there are only a few build for each class that are actually worth taking.
This issue is further compounded by the fact that stats are now linked to gear. If the current meta’s are changed to make others more worthwhile then all of those who ground for thousands of hours for ascended items are going to be furious and upset.
In order for build diversity to become available then really stats should be separated from gear(or at least have stats swappable) as really I don’t see an alternative.
There also needs to be a sense of jeopardy. Outside of a very few encounters it is impossible to fail content in a meaningful way. Fail a temple event, so what? either wait or hop to a server that has it open. Personal stories and dungeons are impossible to fail, only run out of time or money.
You can’t drive horizontal progression in a very largely fail free game., as nothing matters, nothing is at stake.
As to how to fix these issues. Then I would suggest:
Short term
+ Introduce more social stuff. Wardrobes, guild halls, more stuff that allows the community to do stuff together(and if we are being really radical take a long hard look at your back end server structure. It really does hold so many things back) – *Community drives longevity and fun, not content grind. *
+ Allow dynamic stat swapping on ascended items too. It would give a horizontal progression meaning to why they are there, and facilitate more build diversity.
+ Go back and play GW1. Look how that did content and horizontal progression. particularly skill capping, the UW and FoW areas. Basically look what worked there and do thatLong term:
+ Rework content to make support and control aspects needed
+ Introduce real consequences for failure in dungeons and instances.
+ Allow a degree of profession blurring. where you can use weapons and skills from other professions(Heck maybe ascension still works in the crystal desert and the reward for ascending is being able to utilise more weapons)Basically. I feel the pve meta is stale, adding more of the same skills and content wont fix it. It feels to me as though GW2 needs to become GW2 2.0 to really evolve and move on. Every and anything is else is just treading water.
A whole chapter of GW1 was scrapped because it highlighted issues that were unsolvable in a GW1 context. It was a courageous decision and from it GW2 was born.
I feel now is the time to be courageous again if GW2 is to move beyond the trivial and temporary.
Yes. This.
I put forth a lot of thought into the sub-classes idea — but I think this post highlights the single biggest issue with GW2 right now — and that is that DPS rules everything in PvE meta.
Because of defiant (and just the general nature of combat all being an AoE fest) there is quite literally no reason to ever build your character around control. Support sort of has its place — but DPS is sill 90% if not more what rules this games meta.
Anet tried to introduce new fun mechanics in Tequatle, but it still ended up being a 15 minute DPS check.
If Anet can get this under their belt, I think the game will move in a fantastic direction.
Here’s to hoping.
What about adding Vanquishing (Similar to GW 1) into GW 2? It may work next way: You talking to npc in LA or any other city and selecting Vanquish option and then choose the map u havent done in this mode before. Then u get teleported to instanced version of the map (Queensdale, Cursed Shore or whatever you choose) and will have to clear all the mobs (which will be much harder than in normal open-world version). You may connect to this mode achievements, unique skins or tokens for vanquishing which u trade for precious items like skins or t6 materials or anything else.
Yes! I would love this.
It would be another time consuming difficult PvE activity to do that’s completely different than dungeons, and it lets players enjoy all of the zones in new and exciting instanced ways.
The biggest problem I see with this though, is that it would prevent players from spending time in the real zones, which is already a goal of Anet.
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To be honest, I don’t enjoy much the skill and the trait systems. The first is very restrictive. The second is very passive. I would personaly enjoy a fusion of both systems into something else. An universal system for both skills and traits, perhaps tied to each subclass, that would have less “passive spam” and more skill freedom. Perhaps something like FFVII’s materia, where the “passive traits”, the “active skills” and the “runes/ sigils” fought for the same number of slots and, even more so than that, there existed “combo effects” that gave new functionalities to already existing skills.
I very much agree with your sentiments regarding traits and skills, it just sort of feels underwhelming in my opinion.
I like your ideas.
I would also like to point out that all of the statements I put forward regarding sub-classes were just brainstorming.
At no point did I present my information in the format of “This is exactly how it should be implemented”.
People are even criticizing the actual ideas for sub-classes: “Where’s the archer option?”
I don’t think at any point any of us were trying to say, that these are the subclasses that will or should be implemented. The only reason they were brought up were for the sake of example.
There’s also a lot of people posting their opinions on the matter where the tone in the literature conveys, “This is how it is, it isn’t opinion” — While it may sound contradictory; I’m sorry, but this simply isn’t the case — we’re talking about what people find fun and engaging :P. That being said, there has also been a lot of evidence and support provided, but I don’t particularly think people react well in a collaborative environment when opinions (even those with good reasons behind them) are conveyed as absolute fact.
At any rate, some very good counter arguments for sub-classes were brought up, and I don’t necessarily disagree with them. I guess the reason I like the idea is because I really like the feeling of being ‘niche’. With the current PvE meta, I feel like this is virtually non-existent and I wouldn’t disagree that this can be done without sub-classes — I’ve just always sort of liked the idea. I feel like in the case of the PvE meta, DPS rules everything, which is so unfathomably boring.
Defiant makes “control” or CC builds virtually worthless in so many encounters. Support builds have much more of a place, but usually, if you bring more than one, you’re killing stuff too slow. Hell, even the Tequatle encounter was literally just a 15 minute DPS check with a few other mechanics sprinkled in. You can even find successful full zerker groups in higher level fractals.
Maybe ultimately I don’t necessarily feel like the game needs Horizontal progress more-so, I take issue with the current state of the meta and I personally think Horizontal progress (Possibly in the form of sub-classes) is just one way of shaking that up. That being said, unless current mechanics change or new ones are implemented, I don’t necessarily see this happening.
So this is sort of where I’m coming from — my angle. I’m sure there are people that will disagree with me that there’s more to the meta than DPS and maybe some support every once in a while, but that’s just sort my opinion on the matter.
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Hi Chris!
Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs
You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.
This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.
1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes
In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.
2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).
This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)
3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class
This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.
For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.
As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.
WOW you and me are thinking a like i was talking about this in game about how sub classes can be in guild wars 2. I was thinking about how all the weapons will be available to all classes it got me thinking about the class i currently use. Which is ranger and i thought to myself “huh if ranger had a staff it would have a separate build that is based around spirits and nature magic enhanced even further. perhaps a name for it could be druid or shaman” But yeah so glad someone is thinking of that
Yes!! This is exactly my line of thinking! I like your example — ranger earns the sub-class of Druid, so he can use staff, has more spell-like abilities and has other bonuses that really change the game-play.
I didn’t mention it, but you bring a good point — sub-classes could have exclusive weapon options. Ranger normally can’t use staff, but if he sub-classes into Druid, he can, which opens up a lot more skills and variety!
I like it a lot
Hi Chris!
First and foremost I want to thank you for your time in initiating and speaking with us all on this CDI. Character progression is something I’m relatively passionate about in games, and I’ve truly enjoyed reading everyone’s ideas and your responses.
You wanted to move the conversation now to one more focused on Horizontal progression, and this is the topic I came here to discuss. I will not mention ascended gear at all in this post (except for this little snippit) because it has been covered quite thoroughly already (and quite frankly, I personally take little issue with it).
Now on to Horizontal progression:
There are two topics I’d like to talk about that I think are the best ways to expand upon horizontal progression and really toss things up in the meta.
Topic 1: Horizontal Progression in the form of Sub-Classes/Jobs
You’ve stated a few times in a couple different ways that the Anet team has been discussing Horizontal progression in the form of a type of job system or “sub-classes” if you will.
This in my opinion is an excellent idea, and I would love to see something like this implemented in GW2. I think this is one of the best possible ways to expand upon horizontal progression. This is one of the reasons to why I have now participated in this CDI. I want to weigh in on this topic a bit more with my expectations/ideas for a system such as this.
1: Furthar fleshing out the roles of “Control, Damage, Support” for each of the classes
In a lot of interviews with devs before this game came out, it was stated that GW2 wanted to do away with the original holy trinity of MMOs, and replace it with a trinity of Control, Damage, and Support. I feel like in the current meta of the game, this is new trinity is barely existent. Most content is easier the faster you burn something down, so there is a very heavy reliance on DPS (even Tequatle is literally just a 15 minute DPS check with other mechanics thrown in). This is something I would LOVE to see expanded upon in the form of a Sub-class system. New traits, new skills, new passive bonuses that the player has the choice to have active/slotted that can buff one of the three roles. This sort of leads into my second point.
2: New exclusive skills to each job (both weapon, utility, and passive).
This is touched a bit more on the next section, but new exclusive skills would really mix the meta up, and make it feel like No two Warriors/Thieves/Mesmers/etc are the same (which again, makes the game so much more engaging in my opinion)
3: Sub-Class development shouldn’t end with selecting a sub-class
This portion of my opinion might come under fire a bit because a lot of the GW2 community has lot of people don’t want things to feel too grindy (which is a completely fair and valid point). I still think there should be ways developing a sub-class furthar upon selection. A skill tree that uses your skill points would probably not be the way to go on this considering that makes it ALL about grind. Instead, perhaps, your sub-class or job could earn sub-class or job exp based on activities that the job performs well.
For the sake of example, suppose a thief has the Sub-Class “Nightshade” — a support based subclass that focuses on stealthing, healing, and buffing itself and its allies with the sacrifice of some DPS. This player should earn “Nightshade” exp by Stealthing, healing, and buffing it’s allies.
As the Sub-Class/Job increases in level, new passive and slot-able skills become available.
Topic 2: Horizontal Progression in the form of new weapon skills (not new weapons)
Some have mentioned new weapons, which is great and I’d still like to see, but I’m talking about multiple sets of skills for each 1 – 5 slot on each weapon. New sills for each weapon would increase build diversity exponentially, and it would make creating a build so much more engaging. There would be new combos to figure out, more diversity in combat — I’m sure there would be new animations etc. Generally speaking I think this another item for Horizontal progression that would be extremely healthy for the game, and the game’s meta. This can even tie back to sub-classes — certain sub-classes could have some exclusive weapon skills. The mixing and matching of weapon skills would be very engaging.
In Closing
Simply thinking about these sort of things being implemented into GW2 gets me excited — it would certainly make me want to play a lot more.
Also, for all those that took the time to read I want to emphasize that all of this is just my opinion — you may disagree, and I’m perfectly okay with that. If you’d like to expand upon or discount any of my ideas, I will not be offended.
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Meanwhile, in the land of warriors (Pre-Banner Buff) … 32K crits on a 6 second cooldown. This isn’t my picture, I saw it over in the warrior forum.
This is why dungeon groups with only warriors are so much more efficient than any other group. Between all their shouts, they can easily reach 25 stacks of might, all their auto attacks (including the mesmers) inflict vulnerability keeping the mob at constant 25% extra damage, and then the obvious time warp.
I think maybe the only reason I think the nerf to our PvE damage/viability is so unfair is because of stuff like this.
Bah, who knows.
You do realize he has 25 stacks of might? Right?
You also realize that warriors versus most thieves is an easy kill for a thief? Right?
You do realize that 100b in SPVP is laughable? Right?
Please…
You do realize that we’re talking about the PvE aspect right? Keep your PvP/WvW comments out because most of us don’t care how Warrior VS Thief goes in PvE. Point is when they nerf stuff like this for PvP/WvW, PvE should not suffer.
Meanwhile in the land of Mesmer, you can portal through the fire trap. How come I can’t do that on my thief. However, I can stealth my entire group in the raving asura fractal and bypass those stupid harpies. How come a warrior can’t do that! Stop kittening over a small nerf (it could’ve been worst). Go check the ranger forum if you want to feel better.
Let’s do this over shall we?
I have a Ranger too, so no, I won’t feel better. The unreasonable Quickness nerf however, should be treated on a higher priority than this as it affects many more classes and perhaps destroyed a fun mechanic in the game.
I like you Orpheus, not only are you not rude (Even in the face of rudeness directed at you) but you kinda took the words right out of my brain :P. Your explanation for why many PvE thieves are upset is right on point (at least in my opinion).
Oh, and as I side note, I’m very well aware that the warrior in the screenshot has 25 stacks of might, as I specifically mentioned it in the post — this is very obtainable with a group of all warriors because they all can use shouts — which I was pointing out to support the claim about there being a little inequity around PvE class balance.
And again, I realize everyone’s really passionate about telling people they suck on the internet, but a lot of us, myself included, are trying to discuss this from a PvE balance position only; I think the nerf is perfectly fair for PvP and WvW.
Orpheus brings up a good point when he says different classes can do different things in many different scenarios and everyone can do DPS — it’s just that this nerf from a PvE perspective only feels a bit unwarranted.
At least that’s where I’m coming from.
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I’m sure they’re still working on it.
It does suck though, it’s the basis on which SO many builds are built around…
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It was a really stupid nerf that hurt PvE thieves…
This nerf hasn’t hurt my PvE thief at all.
I’m going to repeat something I said back when life-steal food was “nerfed” (i.e. balanced): if you build your character around a single skill, trait, boon, or consumable then you’re setting yourself up for a aggravation should the day come your gimmick build nerfed.
You know that’s actually a really insightful statement (no sarcasm or trolling here I’m being genuine). It’s a good way to stay positive about it.
I think the main reason I’m a little annoyed by it (I’m not saying anything like the class is broken, I just think it adversely affected PvE thieves a little too much) is because Warriors do so much more DPS, bring heals/boons with shouts, and can severely buff a team with banners — If you want DPS, there is literally no reason to take anyone other than a Warrior.
I’m not gonna let this make me change classes or anything like this, I still love the class and look forward to adapting — I just think there’s a little inequity around class balance for PvE.
Attachments:
Well I posted this to the bugs subforum and a Dev responded and said they were looking into it.
Just wanted to give everyone an update!.
/signed
I was totally in favour of that change, and I was eagerly awaiting the patch to get stealth in a manageable state, especially with the culling fix. It looked like it was on-track to becoming something that QQers could marginally accept (there will always be whiners).
Instead, Thief got nerfed completely and utterly in to the ground. All PvE stealth rotations are dead. All stealth-focused builds are dead or functioning at a pathetic capacity. All that, because of some PvP crybabies.
USE YOUR kitten SHORT BOW AND BLAST FINISH. NO ONE WANTS A kittenTY BACKSTABBING THIEF THEY HAVE TO REVIVE EVERY 10 SEC
Great answer. Use my one method, all other methods are wrong. Love the all-caps touch too, makes you really respectable.
Generally agree with you. While I don’t think all stealth rotations are COMPLETELY dead, I will very certainly admit that we’ve taken a very hard hit to PvE DPS.
Also, good on you for staying mature in the face of people that like to use all caps and type out thoughts that are fueled by 90% emotion. You have my support.
You should be using Executioner anyway
For certain builds, Hidden Killer is vastly more dps gain. Generally, these would be builds with frequent stealth cycles and semi tanky gear like Power/Vitality/Toughness. It also has much more predictable results.
Yeah, I primarily PvE where mobs just sit there and let you repeatedly stealth-cycle backstab them. This is the main reason I use hidden killer — though if you make a good enough case, I can certainly be persuaded.