Guild Wars 2

Fix the 5 target AoE limit.

Taking away all AEs would make zerging easier. With no AEs it is literally just a numbers game. Player skill would NOT be the centre piece.

Dawdler.8521:

Ozoug.4158:

The worst part is that apparently according to this thread there are a lot of people who defend this. Meaning nothing is going to change. Meaning GW2 will always be flawed.

That’s not why nothing is going to change.

Nothing is going to change because Anet has said no, never going to happen. The result would never be worth the cost. AoE zerker blob meta and expontentially increasing lag vs keeping it as is with melee/ranged combos and fairly fluent gameplay? Its a no brainer..

If everyone was like “Your game is flawed, I am not going to play it”, and this was the deciding issue for everyone quitting the game, then it would get changed. Don’t delude yourself, everything is possible. They just think this isn’t worth their time. It is possible though. They CAN get rid of the AoE cap. They just don’t want to.

Furthermore if there was no cap on AE an argument could be made that there would be less zerkers. Damage mitigation would become even more important. If they got rid of the cap it would be so much better for the game, other changes would need to be made though. Make heals more effective, make CC more effective. Up group size and range of boons to group members.

There are a lot of things that could be done to balance the game after removing the cap, but having the cap makes GW2 fundamentally flawed.

What are you guys talking about? You don’t want a AoE Meta? In a zerg fight of course AE is going to be greatest. There are 50 people literally standing on top of eachother. Futhermore, every class has AE. Every. Single.Class. Everyone uses AE Skills!

This cap is a HUGE issue. It is a fundamental flaw in the game. They designed their game so incorrectly that it couldn’t handle how it should be played. This is how it used to be. It was changed not because it is better this way. It was changed because the game was designed so badly that it couldn’t handle it, and they had to change it.

The worst part is that apparently according to this thread there are a lot of people who defend this. Meaning nothing is going to change. Meaning GW2 will always be flawed.

PvE, who cares, let people stack to their hearts content.

WvW however, this is absolutely ridiculous.

Get rid of the 5 person AE cap and fix your game.

Path of Exile time because this game is so flawed that it is so frustrating to play. The problem is that it is a beautiful game, and the movement is so smooth, that I want to like it. I want to love it. I try to love it, but I can’t.

You literally could of stole every class, skill, and ability from DaoC and put it with the graphics and fluid movements of GW2, and you would have the most amazing MMO ever. The PvP would be absolutely amazing, and would be an actual end-game to a game that currently has no end-game. You guys literally stole the worst parts of the best PvP MMO ever. Why not steal the good parts? It makes no sense.

It’s really sad that a game that is so good looking and plays so smoothly lacks any kind of depth. Shallowest game ever.

Renny.6571:

Zietlogik.6208:

this encourages players to simply group up into blobs since they have quick and easy access to wherever they need to go without consequence.

Lost me here. Having access to a waypoint hardly encourages blobbing. It’s the other silly mechanics like the AoE cap and ridiculous amount of HP walls/gates have that cause people to stick together. Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree that being able to harass a structure with little downtime is detrimental to the flow of a battle, but then again so is sneezing on a gate to contest a waypoint.

-Waypoints make it easier to zerg. When you can port close to the zerg, it is easier to zerg.

I know a lot of Riot came from 8man DaoC. Ask them what it would be like if you could port right to other borderlands / keeps. Having less waypoints and making people run back forces them into the open field, where small scale encounters can happen.

Renny.6571:

Ozoug.4158:

I said less WPs encourages small scale fights. Is that wrong? What point are you trying to make other than trying to strawman me?

I just fail to understand the logic behind “WPs = zergs”. You die, you run back. It’s the same for people running in groups of 5 as it for people running in groups of 30+.

And when you run back are you with a zerg? :p

Renny.6571:

Ozoug.4158:

I really REALLY hope they don’t add WPs. There needs to be more consequences to dieing. With WPs you can make it back to a fight before it’s even over lol. Furthermore having to run back encourages small scale action.

WPs = Zergs

I didn’t realise small scale action meant you’re exempt from having to running back..

I said less WPs encourages small scale fights. Is that wrong? What point are you trying to make other than trying to strawman me?

I really REALLY hope they don’t add WPs. There needs to be more consequences to dieing. With WPs you can make it back to a fight before it’s even over lol. Furthermore having to run back encourages small scale action.

WPs = Zergs

Seera.5916:

Lack of Defined Roles

Yes, ANet could have made support and control a little more useful. But they were trying to avoid the situation where players couldn’t do X content unless they had a support or a control.

-This is what I don’t understand. If they didn’t want content to require heals or CC, then make content that doesn’t require CC or heals(like they have), but it doesn’t mean make CC or heals ineffective. Make a class that is awesome at CC, make a class that is awesome at heals. Make those roles, but don’t make them necessary. Just because a healer is in game doesn’t mean content needs them. The content defines what is needed, not what class is in the game.

When A-net can make money from it

God I want to play DaoC PvP so bad. Please, I am begging some developer, make a good PvP MMO and I will give you lots of money!! Please!!!!!! qqqqqqqqq

Dutchares.6084:

Anyone played Dark ages of Camelot? or Dark ages of Cast a lot in its final years?
2 groups standing opposite each other in lines. No melee crazy enough to charge in.
Even a group of melee will get cast down very fast because of all the casters hit them at the same time. So only casters standing at max range sometimes doing a step forward cast their aoe and step back…. So booring.

There are much better ways to decourage zerging.. or karma train..
Why do people karma train… because its the best and most rewarding tactic in game.
Change both and people will stop zerging.
So only reward a few people for taking an objective.. and make zergs split up by making it easier for small groups to take poor defended/undefended objectives and hold them when the zerg comes (keeps towers just taken will be tier 3 fully upgraded.. and will downgrade every 15 minutes if not enough supplies brought to it)

I haven’t played DaoC in about 5 years. But I did RvR in 8man groups for many years. What changes were made that casters were made #1 in 8man? For the longest time it was all about melee. There were always caster extend groups, but they weren’t invincible like you’re implying here.

No caps. They may need to tone down damage, but capping thing’s(damage, AE cap) are terrible ideas, and are just taking the easy way out to fix real issues.

“- Your team in EOTM will be based up the color your server has in the regular WvW maps … if your server is red in EB you will be on the red team in EOTM along with red players from other servers, etc.”

-Is this the right way to do this? Wont this stack the teams? Grouping all the winners together?

What if they added a trinity, but they didn’t change the PvE content. You could still do whatever you wanted in PvE with whatever classes, but it would make WvW combat much much better. Not near as much running.

Bhodi Le.6251:

No, the whole point of this is it is supposed to be a whole lot harder to attack a T3 keep than it is to defend it, and right now the way things are, there really is no defending it, unless you outnumber the attackers 3 to 1. If the attackers want to take out siege on the wall, make them build siege to do it, dont let a group eles or necros walk along the outside of the wall and prevent any posibility of defense

I agree that you should be able to defend keeps easier, and not with the use of siege. Character skills should be able to defend points. I disagree that you can only defend if you outnumber your attackers 3-1, if you outnumber your opponent no reason you can’t wipe them.

I do think that 20 should be able to hold off 40 though, with the use of skills instead of siege. Right now with the 5 person AoE cap, and stability, it’s pretty much impossible to hold a choke vs greater numbers.

That is roaming. Good fights, was fun to watch.

Have you guys tried running a tanky staff ele? Too squishy?

“As a comparison, ~17s into that video the player is targetted by what I presume is a ranged attack. Its simple, it goes from Player A to Player B. Its just a local render thing. DAoC has lots of such attacks right? Its hard to tell in the video and I never played it. I cant even see any ground AoE, just player targetted attacks.”

DaoC has both ground target and AoE attacks that don’t need a target. Not all skills are targeted.

“As a comparison, ~17s into that video the player is targetted by what I presume is a ranged attack. Its simple, it goes from Player A to Player B.”

-And what is wrong with that? That is how it should be. Take a guardian sceptre autoattack if they’re casting it on me, I literally just have to strafe right and left(tap q and e) and every single attack with sail past me. Just another broken mechanic, which works well for PvE, but not for PvP. This once again shows that WvW was an afterthought.

“Sure in GW2 you have simple attacks like that as well, but there are more complicated ones. Compare in GW2 when a Mesmer toss a ranged attack such as a iWarlock which has its own location, direction, a tiny bit of AI, health, etc. That alot of things transmitted over the network even if its seemingly simple. Then that phantasm will fire a physical projectile which also has its own location, direction, speed, damage depending on boons of the target it may hit, etc. That projectile is obviously also checked against if a player dodges (or if anyone cross its path for that matter).”

-In DaoC there was a class, the animist, that could castup to 20 pets, that are placed with a ground target. These pets would attack targets on their own, and had their own health bars. That’s a lot of things being transmitted over the network, even if it’s seemingly simple.

“Hell if you really think about it, not even melee weapons in GW2 is player targetted – they are AoE. Which means alot of calculations and checks against other players based on what’s in front of you.”

-DaoC also had melee attacks, that could hit as many targets in range, and didn’t need a target.

“Do we really want to remove all that for the sake of having more AoE targets? Even if we could get 1000 players into a border running around with a melee weapon that can only hit whatever is targetted even if its there are 5 more players standing in front of you kind of goes against the point.”

-In a word. Yes.
I would give up everything that makes GW2 not able to hit more than 5 targets(pets included) in exchange for the ability to hit as many targets as are in my AoE. Granted you nor I don’t know for sure what changes would need to be made, maybe barely anything needs to be changed.

One other thing that makes me feel like GW2 took a step back from DaoC (10+ year old game) is the combat log. Right now in WvW all I get is Blackgate invader hits you for yadda yadda, or you hit blackgate invader for yadda yadda. In DaoC the combat log told you everything you did. You healed (persons name) for this much, you hit (enemys name) for this much. You interupted (persons name) You killed (persons name). You rezzed (persons name) You casted such and such spell. You want to know what happened in a fight? Check the log. GW2 log is sadly incomplete.

Furthermore, there are a ridiculous amount of skills and buttons to push in DaoC, compared to very little in GW2. My ele (class with the most skills in the game) has 21 to cast at any given time. In DaoC it was not uncommon to have upwards of 50 skills on your hotbars.

DaoC was a better PvP game, and GW2 would do it self a favor by stealing the good things about RvR, instead of the crap.

Dawdler.8521:

Chorazin.4107:

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

I have seen that specific video before in this type of discussion and its a ridiculous comparison. Seriously, its a matter of precision. That video just shows how bloody low res old MMOs are – and I’m not talking about graphics. I’m talking about the core math behind everything. The most obvious thing being detail in movement. GW2 is 100x more detailed in how a character behaves, compared to your moving sticks with nametags and a static animation with flailing legs. This is going to be reflected in the netcode as well.

Hell, even the numbers in that video is small compared to the megablobs seen in WvW, where a battle between all 3 servers can cover the entire width of the area between east bay and garrison and last 20 minutes.

Comparing GW2 to DoAC and saying “if they did it why cant you, its almost the same game!” is a bloody insult to the developers and the achievement that is fluid WvW.

If GW2 played like DaoC but with GW2 graphics and character movements, it would be a much much better game.

The fact that the designers of this game didn’t have the foresight to realize that the way they’re making the game, the way things work, would only allow AE spells to hit 5 targets shows that WvW was an afterthought.

Issues like the AE cap need to be designed around. If the game can’t handle AEs hitting more than 5 targets, then it wasn’t designed properly. GW2 is flawed to it’s core because of this.

- Remove the 5 person AoE cap. I don’t care if they said it’s not possible. Make it possible. It needs to be changed or WvW will always be flawed.

- Up group size. Make group size somewhere between 10-20 people, and make it so that buffs have a lot longer range to group members. Right now you have to be stacked really close together to get buffs.

- Make CC last longer, and heals heal for more. Right now you get people running as soon as they feel threatened. If the fight can be turned by good CC / good heals, people stick around and fight it out, rather than run away as soon as their cool-downs are down.

- Downstate. Rallying needs to go, or atleast be changed. Rally from a 3way fight, or heaven forbid from a mob, is really bad design.

- Zerg rezzing. Somehow your smaller group has dropped some from a big zerg, and they just spend 5 seconds mass rezzing someone, and it’s like you never dropped them in the first place. Make it so you can’t rezz downed people in combat.

- Rezz sickness. This is straight out of DaoC. If you die, and are rezzed, you are not as effective as before. Make it so that if you are dead or downed, and are rezzed, everything you do is 75% as effective. Damage,heals,cc are all 25% less.

- Make killing players give more wxp, and have it so damage done to said player determines how much wxp you get. A 100% solo kill grants say 500 wxp. Now if two people kill one person and do equal damage they get 250 wxp each. How this should work in groups is that say you have a 10 person group, you kill one person, that 500 wxp is split evenly to those 10 people(even if you do no damage at all to the enemy. 50wxp each. What this does it give an incentive to not run with the zerg. Zerging will decline a lot when you are not able to tag every target for minimal damage,and get full rewards.

Sunt.6835:

Bags are a little bit overrated.
You get way better reward in spvp – Gold / Glory

if you play for bags.. you are just wasting your time there ….

if you play for fight …. This one is tricky … you will see most of people running away, stealth escape, outnumber you ….. which spvp may be more enjoyable.

-Very true. Equal number forces will run/wp all of the time. WvW has made it so it’s more important to run away and take some undefended objective than it is to fight other people. The issue with spvp is that it’s about capturing points. There is no true PvP in GW2. Everything is associated with taking and holding points, when the focus should be figthing eachother.

Aeolus.3615:

Ozoug.4158:

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Spike build superior AC….

Arrow Carts are terrible. Siege is unfun. Don’t want to use siege to make up for the fact that WvW is broken.

Chorazin.4107:

The blobbing also is in part due to the fact you take 2 steps and you are out of buff/heal range in this game. But as people have noted the 5 people is an engine limit that cannot be altered, not a specific design decision. Which to be honest coming from DAoC that is 10 years old(or more) that had no cap whatsoever seems kind of odd.

In DAoC the heals and buffs had a nice range to promote a more open field combat feel and flow, in GW2 it’s all about stacking up for buffs then pushing in and staying tight. This is due to the no targeted heals and whilst i admire what they have tried to accomplish. I miss the trinity and targeted heals, thats just my personal preference, and when a game comes out that does it right i will be playing it.

One of the key strokes of genius, or luck, for DAoC’s combat mechanics was the healing range being greater than the basic nuke range slightly. This simple mechanic underpinned so much of what was good about DAoC. It meant that the tank classes could push with support from their healers at decent range. And outside of amnesia(which wasnt damage) if you wanted to push up and deal damage on the support classes you would have to pick ur window as a caster to do so.

and of course the CC to give smaller well organised numbers a modicum of a chance against larger numbers.

I played DAoC roaming 8 man on Classic for ages and it was hands down the most fun i had in any PvP environment.

Heres some Egg Na Nog Adventurers bombing the Kzar zerg just for the lulz, the zerg still wins but they at least get some kills for their organisation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI250gU4Ct8

WvW should of been an updated version of RvR. Instead we have siege and PvD shoved down our throats, with no attention to actual fighting other people. At this point the game is what is it, a place holder until a real PvP game comes a long. Hurry up Camelot unchained! :pThe devs seem so out of touch on how to make a game fun that I have lost any hope of WvW being more than zergfest.

So close A-net, better luck next time.

The 5 person AoE cap limit needs to be fixed or WvW will always be flawed.

Fights. I wish they would take PPT out of WvW.

DeadlySynz.3471:

I would be happy with this:

- Stomped players get auto-ported back to the closest wp
- You can only rez a downed or defeated player when out of combat
- Introduce a food that gives say a 25% chance to defeat a player (no downed state)
- Introduce a new mastery that has a potential to put a player into defeated state

If I were to have to pick one; I think the one that would make the biggest impact while making it actually fair is only allow rezzing while out of combat.

No RNG in PvP please. I’d be pretty perplexed if anything but #2 was added.

Dawdler.8521:

Ozoug.4158:

What’s the difference between scaling a cliff and scaling a wall?

Aside from the obvious difference in smoothness? Try climbing the walls in your room and you’ll find out.

Either way, this is what “hills” really should have been:

Ah my bad, I didn’t know these keeps were made of drywall. Instead of, you know, brick,wood, and stone. ;p

Prevvy.1936:

I hear the phrase ‘mindless zerging’ thrown around on the forums but I think you’ll find most zergs are far from ‘mindless’ and that most are coordinated. Zerging or blobbing is such a effective strategy because the potential for huge damage and protection it offers to players within. You deal more damage (might, fury & others not easily available to all classes) and heal more (multiple water blasts, cleansing, more boons etc). I do however think individual player skill starts to matter less as the size of the blob/zerg increases (30>). It ends up becoming a spam-fest of auto-attacks and aoe abilities to tag as much as possible to guarantee loot.
Nothing quite as frustrating when the server decides to zerg/blob up to 60~80 man flipping everything on the map and train you down but there is NOTHING in this game that gives you that sense of satisfaction when your guild (20~25 players) wipes that zerg.

The aoe cap on five targets was introduced to close the gap in discrepancy of damage between casters and melee players. In the beginning the cap on aoe was much higher (or didn’t have one) which meant elementalists casting meteor shower could absolutely destroy a group of players in the area of effect and melee based players couldn’t get close enough to damage them before being bombarded. Five-man limit on aoe meant no longer could few eles hold a choke against a blob and therefore meant the other classes besides the casters became viable in WvW.
Also the aoe limit serves to improve server side calculations/load which = better performance for the players.

It also adds RNG to PvP. Will my AE hit the guy at 10% or the hunters pet? Furthermore you should be able to hold chokes vs bigger numbers. To what degree is debatable, but lesser numbers should be able to hold chokes vs greater numbers. Right now it’s to hard to do that. Greater numbers that stack with stability up aren’t getting stopped at a choke.

Downstate and rallying are both really bad mechanics for PvP, especially WvW. When you have people rallying from mobs or a 3 way fight it’s really frustrating.

To me it really feels like this game was built for PvE, and then WvW as an afterthought. The game mechanics barely work in PvE, and are terrible in WvW.

naphack.9346:

Actually no, depending on when the keep was built and the properties of the cliffs, the current walls are reasonable.
Especially considering that second hill with a clear view on the keep, it would be a problem, not to have those walls.
That is not even considering that in a real keep. there would be the threat of people trying to scale the cliffs and throwing down ropes. That’s, why you need those walls as a place for guards to patrol. If the area is open, it can become a safety hazard really quickly and at the very least requires dozens of guards at night to keep the enemy from infiltrating the keep by scaling the cliffs.
You always want your walls to form a complete circle, no matter the natural borders.

What’s the difference between scaling a cliff and scaling a wall?

Jocksy.3415:

Ozoug.4158:

Dawdler.8521:

Ozoug.4158:

I havent heard a dev say it isnt going to happen, why isnt it, and where was that stated if you dont mind me asking?

Well we are talking about the AoE limit, right? Not the 5 man party limit, which is ridiculous to begin with (the GW2 engine can obviously handle more, since we got 8 man parties in PvP – WvW should have 10 man parties at the very least).

What we are dealing with if the AoE limit is increased, the calculations of conditions/damage/everything are increased expontentially. We’re not talking twice the load if you increase the limit to 10 man (ie double it). We’re talking many, many times the load. Limiting this is a way to keep the game playable. Could they remove it? Sure. But I’m guessing that they already tried that and the result was rather ugly.

It would be rather boring to see 50v50 engage each other, the fps go down to 1-2 and then suddenly its 50v0 because 3 elementalists in the rear dropped meteor storm at the same time and killed everyone between frame 1 and frame 2.

I dont understand this. Are you saying that its a 5 person cap because of performance issues? Why would my fps go down to 1-2 because my AEs hit more people? I dont buy that its a performance issue. DaoC RvR(where the idea of WvW came from) has zerg fights, and there is no limit there? Why can a game that is 10+ years old do it, but not one that is new?

It’s not FPS performance issues, it’s server’s communications issues…
Right now, conditions are calculated on a tick basis, every tick, there are communications between server and client to know damage of the condition for the tick.
All the communications needed at every damage tick are already part of what cause lagg (skill lagg) in large scale battles… add more targets to an AoE, there would be even more client/server communications, so more lagg…

This all is because, right now, condis are not fire and forget, they change depending on the buff the person who putted them has, and the protections the person who has them has… thus the constant communications…

Most games that allow 10 targets are fire and forget – so any buff/protection that was gotten after the condition was put are not effecting it…

That’s a real shame. Zerg fights always be trash because of this. Gotta love RNG in my PvP

This would effect bank and inventory slot sales. So I doubt we’ll see one for free. If one is added it’ll be for like 2k gems

I can barely play in big fights, let alone record :p

How much damage do you think your meteor / tornado combo will do post crit damage nerf?

Dawdler.8521:

Ozoug.4158:

I havent heard a dev say it isnt going to happen, why isnt it, and where was that stated if you dont mind me asking?

Well we are talking about the AoE limit, right? Not the 5 man party limit, which is ridiculous to begin with (the GW2 engine can obviously handle more, since we got 8 man parties in PvP – WvW should have 10 man parties at the very least).

What we are dealing with if the AoE limit is increased, the calculations of conditions/damage/everything are increased expontentially. We’re not talking twice the load if you increase the limit to 10 man (ie double it). We’re talking many, many times the load. Limiting this is a way to keep the game playable. Could they remove it? Sure. But I’m guessing that they already tried that and the result was rather ugly.

It would be rather boring to see 50v50 engage each other, the fps go down to 1-2 and then suddenly its 50v0 because 3 elementalists in the rear dropped meteor storm at the same time and killed everyone between frame 1 and frame 2.

I dont understand this. Are you saying that its a 5 person cap because of performance issues? Why would my fps go down to 1-2 because my AEs hit more people? I dont buy that its a performance issue. DaoC RvR(where the idea of WvW came from) has zerg fights, and there is no limit there? Why can a game that is 10+ years old do it, but not one that is new?

Sad Tas.2509:

Ozoug.4158:

“Polls are great, but they can get muddled with order bias. How about this – create a thread that asks for players to list their three favorite things about WvW, along with their three least favorite things. “Hey ArenaNet, do more of this, less of that.”

Just my 2c!"

-Josh “The Grouch”

So lets do it! I’ll start

Less of:
Zerging-Get rid of the 5 person limit. This is a big reason why zerging exists, and it’s also a big reason why smaller groups have trouble taking out bigger groups, especially when defending.
PvDooring- It’s very boring but it’s encouraged in WvW. Fighting other people should be encouraged.
Less Siege-Siege is terribly unfun. IMO shouldn’t be used vs other players. Players class skills should be used vs other players.
Running away- WvW encourages avoiding fights. Waypoints, stacks, and how the game mechanics work all promote running away when feeling threatened.

More of:
Fighting eachother. WvW should encourage fighting one another. Removal of waypoints, change the mechanics so teamwork can overcome greater odds, and add an incentive for killing other players.

you literally just described tpvp. click on the crossed swords at the top of your screen and then on “go to the heart of the mists” and everything you just listed will be there.

Except it isnt.
-I want to build a character and fight with them.
-There is siege in tpvp
-Its about capturing and defending points.
-Not large scale enough

Dawdler.8521:

Ozoug.4158:

Zerging-Get rid of the 5 person limit. This is a big reason why zerging exists, and it’s also a big reason why smaller groups have trouble taking out bigger groups, especially when defending.

I really wish people would stop bringing this up. Its completely pointless. Its not going to happen, devs have already explained why multiple times. Focus on the things that can be changed.

I havent heard a dev say it isnt going to happen, why isnt it, and where was that stated if you dont mind me asking?

“Polls are great, but they can get muddled with order bias. How about this – create a thread that asks for players to list their three favorite things about WvW, along with their three least favorite things. “Hey ArenaNet, do more of this, less of that.”

Just my 2c!"

-Josh “The Grouch”

So lets do it! I’ll start

Less of:
Zerging-Get rid of the 5 person limit. This is a big reason why zerging exists, and it’s also a big reason why smaller groups have trouble taking out bigger groups, especially when defending.
PvDooring- It’s very boring but it’s encouraged in WvW. Fighting other people should be encouraged.
Less Siege-Siege is terribly unfun. IMO shouldn’t be used vs other players. Players class skills should be used vs other players.
Running away- WvW encourages avoiding fights. Waypoints, stacks, and how the game mechanics work all promote running away when feeling threatened.

More of:
Fighting eachother. WvW should encourage fighting one another. Removal of waypoints, change the mechanics so teamwork can overcome greater odds, and add an incentive for killing other players.

Charak.9761:

-10% Crit Damage
+Extra Sigil on 2h

Buff to zerker meta imo.

Good point, because an extra sigil ONLY effects zerker. It won’t make my condition warrior do more damage.

TChalla.7146:

Ozoug.4158:

“Team bowling
Team Darts
Team Golf”

-Now lets compare these team sports(lol) to actual team sports.

Bowling vs football
Darts vs hockey

Funny how you assumed I was even attempting to label these as team sports. The original challenge was:

“Please name one human, objectives-driven, group activity that is not role-based in terms of how it is conceived and executed.”

I answered with four examples that met that criteria. Not once did I call any of them a sport.

Whether it’s called a team sport or team darts is just arguing semantics. My point was that one requires very little teamwork, and the other requires a lot. You made an example of instances where people do the exact same thing to reach a common goal. I am just pointing out how boring it is compared to when actual team interaction is required.

Yes please. It’s way to low

“Team bowling
Team Darts
Team Golf”

-Now lets compare these team sports(lol) to actual team sports.

Bowling vs football
Darts vs hockey

silvermember.8941:

LordByron.8369:

no would be as stupid…
People did WUPWUP for the crit damage…

What would happen if they said “new patch from today Zojjia becomes apothecary ascended!!!”

What do you think would happen?

The mistake was clearly adding ascended to a system made for easy to obtain equipment…at least they shouldn t do everything they can to preserve that PROGRESSION they shoved down our throats….

So they shouldn’t fix an unbalance stat combo because some people will be negatively affected by it? isn’t the nature of an MMORPG to be constantly changing and you shouldn’t expect your equipment to be perma viable?

In any case as long as they offer a 1 time stat change, I don’t see the problem with changing the system. you might argue that the amount of time it took you to get those things, but that is an unavoidable aspect of an MMORPG.

For how long it takes and how much gold it takes to get ascended, yes, it should be available for a long long time, if not permanently. Not the month or so it has been available.

They just release new armor a month ago. Have people spend like 400 gold, a month of doing a daily task, then they turn around and nerf it? Does that seem ok to you silver?

Also, how is it an unbalanced stat combo? What about it makes it unbalanced?

“Even in DAoC, zerging was an issue. At least in GW2, we don’t have /follow for AFK zerging”

- zergs in DaoC were no where near as much of a problem as in GW2. DaoC encouraged grouping and fighting other people of equal numbers.

They had groups of 8, and alot of spells would only effect those 8 people. Furthermore you would only get RPs(WvW exp) for the damage your group did to the enemy. If you barely did any damage you wouldn’t get any RPs(WvW exp).

Furthermore you could beat twice or thrice your numbers much easier in DaoC. Damage is higher, heals are better, CC last longer and is more effective. You could use teamwork to beat the enemy, where as in GW2, there is barely any teamwork.

WvW should of been more like RvR. They made it to much like PvE. It is still the best game mode in GW2, but it could of been much better if the devs werent terrible.

fadeaway.2807:

Einlanzer.1627:

On topic, Zerker stats are too good compared to other stat combinations just by pure math. It needs retuning.

I wish people would stop perpetuating this myth.

Warrior with soldier gear, force sigil, scholar runes. 25 might, 100% fury, magic find food, sharpening stone, banner of discipline.
4800 ep
40393 ehp

Warrior with zerker gear, force sigil, scholar runes. 25 might, 100% fury, magic find food, sharpening stone, banner of discipline.
7500 ep
21284 ehp

So pvt has almost 90% more effective hp, but zerker has only 56% more damage?
Before taking into consideration heals on a high toughness character improve effective HP by more than they would do for a low toughness character?
Show me where zerker is statistically better?

“Oh but zerker gear scales better with boons and stuff”
Let’s add full bloodlust, add spotter, 10% dmg potion, power/crit damage food…

Soldier
6000 ep
40393 ehp

Zerker
9734 ep
21284 ehp

So pvt has almost 90% more effective hp, but zerker has only 62% more damage?
Before taking into consideration heals on a high toughness character improve effective HP by more than they would do for a low toughness character?
Show me where zerker is statistically better?

“Oh but zerker gear scales better with traits as well!”
Add traits to the above plethora of boons…

Full offensive traits (30/25/0/0/15)
Soldier
10599 ep
43281 ehp

Zerker
17398 ep
23423 ehp

So pvt has almost 85% more effective hp, but zerker has only 64% more damage?
Before taking into consideration heals on a high toughness character improve effective HP by more than they would do for a low toughness character?
Show me where zerker is statistically better?

Defensive trait setups only serve to magnify the dominance of pvt from a statistical viewpoint.

I’ve been saying for over a year now – PVT is the holy trinity of bang for your buck. You gain more survivability with pvt than you gain in dps with zerker. The amount of survivability healing will add to pvt compared to zerker is also ridiculous.

Sad fact is though, you don’t need to mitigate damage and you don’t need survivability when you can dodge/block/reflect/blind almost all incoming damage.
The gear is performing exactly as advertised. A player made choice to drastically reduce your expected survival time in exchange for higher dps.
The problem has always been the game mechanics.

The joy some people take in this nerf is embarrassing. It’s like admitting you’re not good enough to time your active defenses properly yet you still want to do as much damage and clear content as fast as people who are willing and able to succesfully ditch their defensive gear for offensive. I see a lot of people saying it is zerker faceroll easy, but not many people actually running pug 5 zerker fotm49s & meleeing bosses like the archdiviner.

owned by math

“@Ozoug: I see where you are coming from, but if a Warrior used Healing Surge, would it be any different? Can you kill Guardians? Can you kill Thieves? Can you kill Mesmers? What can you kill, how can you kill it, and why doesn’t that apply to fighting Warriors?

They’re also reducing Healing Signet’s heal by 8% (don’t tell me that isn’t significant if we’re complaining about 10% loss in damage), so odds are the gap doesn’t widen. You also get an additional sigil to play with on your staff, and maybe some other changes will hit that might help as well.

Dropping AoEs isn’t exactly very 1v1 friendly, and I don’t think it ever will be. If you absolutely love Staff Ele, and you absolutely love 1v1s/roaming, that’s fine. However, I feel like you should be able to recognize that you’re putting yourself at a disadvantage already. I doubt a Staff Ele could kill me as a Powermancer, either.

Should they balance around a Staff Ele’s ability to kill a Warrior?"

If the warrior ran surge it wouldn’t make a difference. They would still heal up before I could do enough damage to kill them. I can’t kill a Mesmer, guardian, thief, engineer, warrior. The best case scenario is a stalemate. Ranger and Necros I can sometimes pull off a 5 minute fight and get the victory. Other classes though if the other person has any brains at all there is 0% chance of winning the fight. Because my damage is just to low. Now my damage is getting nerfed.

I don’t think they should balance the game around staff ele vs warrior 1v1, but I do think it should be balanced. Reducing crit damage isn’t the way to balance it. Reducing the damage I do is only kittenting on an already pretty kittenty 1-1 class

"

1) Most of those fights were 1:1

2) That first fight, which is all I watched,"

WTF lol

That’s true you can get some fights from going for PPT, it just doesn’t seem like a lot though. I wish the game encouraged players fighting each other. Instead of fighting NPCs

Cogbyrn.7283:

Ozoug.4158:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe they do care about WvW, and that’s why they are making this change. Who here has stopped to consider the possibility that he/she is wrong, and the crit damage change is warranted? If you haven’t, even for a second, then you need to step back and try.

Sure I’ll try.

Roaming around on my staff ele. I see a warrior doing the same. We decide to fight. I can’t out damage his passive healing. He is 100% impossible to kill for my staff ele. My staff eles damage is getting nerfed.

Ok I tried. This nerf is stupid

I’ve literally only seen 1 staff ele roaming alone in my roam adventures, and that person acknowledged that staff wasn’t really a very good 1v1 weapon for Eles.

Do you think they balance the game around Staff Ele vs. Warrior roaming 1v1? Is there anything you can do about the crit damage nerf to accommodate the match-up, considering they’re nerfing Healing Signet by 8% as well? Is a 1v1 match-up strictly about DPS vs. HPS? Can the Warrior kill you, and if so, are you assuming an optimal Warrior build that counters you?

Is that really objective? I don’t think you tried very hard.

All I can go on is my experience. That’s how I play. The warrior can kill me if I try to kill him. IE cast auto attacks. If I run around and only cast ground targets then there’s a good chance of me not dieing, unless I get caught by his CC somehow. But then there’s also a 100% chance of him not dieing if I play like that.

Realistically the only chance I have of killing a warrior is if he just stands in my fields, and lets me cast literally everything on him for like 15 seconds. So unless that happens I don’t do enough damage to kill a warrior.

Will you try to be objective and look at it from my point of view?

My ele can not do enough damage to kill a warrior. Now my damage is getting nerfed.
See where I am coming from?