Guild Wars 2

I run almost the same P/P build as above, with different gear. In my experience P/P thief is on par with D/D, just plays differently. Both have their advantages and disadvatages when compared.

Oh, and I’m talking about PvP if it was not clear

Tl;dr at the end.

Now that the game has been out for some time and I have had the time to try out tPvP more, I think it’s time for me to write about my views of the balance that is the hot potato of PvP gameplay. I will be talking about sPvP and tPvP (free tounaments) from my personal experience and the experience of the three friends I’m playing with.

Firstly, I think the time has passed when any serious PvP player can and want to talk about PvP just from the viewpoint of one class. I myself play Mesmer, Ranger and Thief at the moment and probably more classes in the near future. My friends also play several classes: Guardian, Engineer, Necromancer, Elementalist, Thief and Mesmer. The only class none of us actively plays atm is Warrior, but that is just a coincidence I think.

Two months ago I was playing only hotjoin and the game seemed to have a lot of issues, mostly in the TTK (time to kill) department. Thieves were everywhere insta killing people. And players were not happy. The same situation seems to continue based on the forum posts. Still, when I join the sPvP games now I see two things: Less thieves, more people that have rank 20+. GW2 has been out for some time now, and players have had time to explore PvP more – not just the leet players, but casuals as well. This, I think, is leading us to a situation where more and more players have experience in PvP and different classes.

I’ve been playing tPvP for few weeks now after couple of my friends started to get into PvP. We all have tons of experience from other mmo’s and PvP. We started experimenting with different classes and builds. I played Mesmer as main (the class I started GW2 with in the beta and launch), but got into condition ranger and lately P-P thief (and have loved both ^^). What we noticed was that classes have more viable builds than people generally think, and that tPvP (free tournaments) are actually quite balanced for all the classes (yes there is some variance, but not like the forums would lead you to believe, imho). I’ve also noticed that other people have become aware of this. Free tournies has had a lot of variance in even the premade teames lately. Yesterday we played the last match (Kyhlo) twice against a 50+ team that had two warriors. The only constant thing seems to be that a guardian is generally a must if you wanna do well, but maybe someone can prove me wrong on that too. Still, it’s also obvious that although classes have build options, viable thief builds, for example, seem to revolve around glass cannon specs and guardians are mostly bunkers (‘though there are lot’s of DD Guardians out there also). So the niche role is there for some classes. And of course there is a lot of room for improvements and fixes for all the classes.

So, in my opinion, the classes are quite balanced for tPvP (from free tournies perspective at least, I have no experience of paids) and sPvP seems to drag behind, but along (I hope at least). But meta is a different thing. It’s not versatile. You usually want to go for the balanced build with bunker(s), support and roamers. I haven’t seen a premade with five Necros for example. This has much to do with the conquer game mode and has been talked about in other threads.

Another thing: the game desperately needs a good ranking system. It would improve tournamets so much.

This rant is meant to be an opener for discussion. Please tell about your views and try to objective

- Sonnet

TL;DR

- I’m only talking about free Tournaments and hotjoin from my exprerience and the experience of my 3 friends that I play with
- All classes have viable builds for tournament play
- none of the classes is clearly OP in tournament play
- Guardian is the new monk (healer from GW1), meaning that it’s the one class that you want and need in your team
- Meta is not versatile → balanced teams of bunker(s), support and roamers instead of, for example, 5x Necro
- Game needs a good ranking system for tounaments, asap.

WolfHeart.1256:

Ranger is currently not on par with other classes when it comes to dishing out raw damage. And that is probably also due to the fact that pets are still shaky.

The way I see it, the ranger plus the pet should be able to do similar damage to a different class, say thief or warrior, given a similar build (eg. berserker). But as it is now, the ranger itself still does lower damage than a warrior rifle build and the pet…well…it can’t even keep up with the target if traited for it, let alone without the buff.

I’m sure other classes are lacking in some departments as well, but as far as I’m concerned the ranger is the least versatile class at the moment. Due to lack of build choices (spirit build is globally useless), pets are sometimes a nuissance more than a benefit and the weapons could use some polishing (obstructed, random target changes, etc.)

I think rangers are at a good balanced point atm in sPvP and tPvP. Other classes should probably be balanced at the level where ranger is and the game would be much better of.

Rangers have at least 3 viable builds in low to mid level tPvP (don’t know about high level play): Melee, condition and trapper builds. Bunker build gets mentioned often as well. That’s a lot more than most professions have.

As for the OP, I really can’t say. And I know nothing about PvE.

Thank you Sol!

I wish I had capasity to do 1080p and a better editing software though. Oh well…

Hi!

I’ve been playing ranger for about week and a half now and I’ve loved it. I haven’t seen many ranger videos around so I thought I’d make one. This is the first video I’ve shared on the forums, usually I just make little pieces to show my friends. Anyway, here you go:

The clips are from sPvP and tPvP. Let me know what you think. (there might be issues with the music I’ve used in some countries)

Cheers,

- Sonnet

Good fix on shatter. Rolling back Shattered Strenght don’t make much difference, although I’m not sure why they did that.

I think the global cd on shatter is a good thing. Actually it’s kinda strange that yesterday evening I was thinking I’ll write and suggest a cd on shatter similar to what ele’s have on attunements. Funny feeling reading just now that that is what Anet did.

I’m not sure about rolling back Shattered Strenght though. As far as I saw, it didn’t have that big of an effect on it’s own in PvP and was a good (but not absolutely necessary) change considering PvE.

Osicat.4139:

@Sonnet, its not the glitched shatter, to let daze clones hit first and get 25 stacks of vouln and build 20 stacks of might is not a exploit or bugged, its a strong dmg setup for any direct attacks. Sword 2 hit for 7-9k, my iswordsman did hit a player for 8,7k with might and vouln setup yesterday. Yes its extremly high numbers and sure might get nerfed in future but its not bugged, check the expected dmg, add 25% dmg from vouln, dmg from 20 -25 stacks of might, dmg from signet of night or force and 3% / clone. Its rather a balance situation.

You can thu get bugged shatters up by get 3 clones up and dubble hit f3 and f1 with mirror and decoy,tested and yes its insane dmg but to claim anyone use vuln daze shatters to buildup dmg is used bugged dmg I say is unfair. Or do you mean 9k sword nr 2 also is a bug/exploit, mabye do a list of abilitys we alowed to use and not?

The guardian in start dont die to bugged shatters, its totaly normal shatters for 3’5-3’8 k x4 crits who hit a target who dont get defenses up and have low base hp pool.

Nwm Arena net want burst dmg in wvwvw, its mabye the most effective dmg in group fights and mesmers got alot of effctive ways to do burst. Its a strong class and shatter builds are a strong build. Play witch ever of em you want.

@Kuniva, Gear is same as listed on first page but with another neclese

/Cheers all Osicat

Sorry if I got the wrong impression. It’s hard to see if the Mind Wrack hits the “bugged” damage because it’s counting more illusions than it shoud.

I do believe you have a strong WWW build though.

Osicat.4139:

@Lordryux, I been fighting ALOT of thiefs last 5 days, seems half arbonstone is made of thiefs. Alot bad ofc but some good. The best tip vs em I can give is play like normal shatter cat but use sword block. It litterly take half their hp down, if rune of air hit aswell they get 1 shot almost.

Also your condition dmg is same as normal so a cry of frustration is wonderfull. And when they stealth use mass invis and start dodge like crasy to pop staff clones up. If they open on a popping up clone mindwrack and they die.

Overall survival is like normal “Shatter Cat” reactive and skill based. I spent most of this evening in a 7 man roaming party, first to dive into enemy packs of up to 15 players and I tell you its fantastic to see the havoc you leav when you portal out.

@Moogster, yes.

/Osicat

Ps Link to Insane dmg hybrid spec vid:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnM3spSyjEI

I don’t know if it’s very “professional” to post a video advertising a build and use the totally bugged shatter in it. Actually, I don’t really respect anyone who takes advantage on that bug, it’s like playing a thief before the nerfs and claiming to be good.

Zunhar.4079:

Make Portal an Elite skill. Swap it with Mass Invisibility.

So, you can have portal or TimeWarp, but not both.

I’d like to hear people’s opinions on this. I don’t play Mesmer as much as other classes (Ele/Thief) so I may not realize exactly what this would do to the current meta.

You have to take pve into account when making suggestions.

Tekla.2139:

Tekla.2139:

Skyro.3108:

The only way a Mesmer can really instaburst you down is with Mirror Images, otherwise his clones/phantasms won’t all be in meele range of you to instantly shatter. So it’s not really “you can’t meele when they have 2+ clones out” because Shatter Mesmers will always have a high production rate of clones but they won’t be all be in meele range of you.

And 3K+ damage mind wracks that’s buggy. Even with full might stacks you can’t reach even close to that with a full 3 clone shatter.

Here a shoot of just mind wrack as opening, as mentioned before, full glass cannon and traited for it. No might on me and illusion or vulnerability on the target. No more then 3 illusion was summoned for it to happen.

Here another shoot of just mind wrack as opening, not traited for it and instead of the rune of the scholar, i’m using the rune of the centaur. Actually mine build.
Pick the dmg suit u best.

Sonnet.9840:

Shatter is “bugged” at the moment and will most certainly be fixed. So everyone can put away their pitchforks and torches.

/thread

Perhaps the rune of the scholar along 25 stack of might and vulnerability is what u folks want to pitchfork. Oh, crap almost forgot it! Only the mesmer shouldn’t able to properly use what all other class can.

Perhaps, but that’s not what this thread is about.

As far as I know, 25 stacks (or even constant 9 stacks) of might does not happen unless you seriously sacrifice something else (like scholar runes) to keep it up, and I haven’t seen any proof that this is viable in shatter build.

Shatter is “bugged” at the moment and will most certainly be fixed. So everyone can put away their pitchforks and torches.

/thread

The thing is that mesmer doesen’t have a lot of weaknesses when played well. A supprising burst is one, usually coming from thiefs or warriors. Conditions and aoe are the best counter to mesmer I think. One important thing is to keep steady dps on the mesmer and see through the “tricks” (the faster you will find where the “real” mesmer is, the faster the fight ends in your favor). Shatter Mesmer, the most common you will face, is fragile after all.

To be honest, I haven’t lost in 1vs1 situation to an ele in so long time I can’t even remember when, though a good bunker ele could maybe kill me given time… a lot of time.

What I like though is that a lot of players are getting better and fights against different professions are getting a lot tougher, so we’ll see.

Still haven’t heard a single argument based on reality why the trait is OP.

If you claim that it is OP or horribly OP, give an example. Like some people who actually now the how the mesmer works have pointed out, it is not practical to use shatter for building might stacks, infact it gimps your damage. Yes, shattering gives you might stacks, but you only have 10 sec window to benefit from it and your first shatter, which you need 3 illusions for to have max stacks, is basically useless. In 10 sec you have to make 3 new illusions for your might burst. This whole rotation takes a lot of time if it even succeeds, and all this just that you can do a shatter burst with 9 stacks of might. Sorry, not OP at all.

Don’t know about the condition shatter build though.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Auto attack ….. Lots of Damage…. Lol

If a Mesmer is trying to blend in with his clones he is not going to be doing a lot of damage to you at all, because he is auto attacking…. Clones hit for 1-5 damage a piece, yep that’s it. People stress out when they get attacked by clones, here’s what you need to do, stop, stand back, take a breath and look for the real Mesmer, that’s it. While you are looking and you have 3 clones attacking you they are not doing kitten for damage so don’t stress. Clones get people all stress because they see 3 attacks coming in, once you realize the clones aren’t doing any damage to you you will be good. Every time I fight a Mesmer, I pause, stand back, and find the idiot dodging around among 3 manniquins that aren’t moving, (and hes dodging for no reason because I’m just chilling) casting abilities, usually has chaos armor on, call a target on him and go to work.

This.

Hi, Could someone explain to me the situation where you run with constant 18+ stacks of might, (or even 9 stacks) with shatter build and have the resources left to benefit from it?

I played a couple rounds of hot join doing my normal shatter rotations and just using my normal play style. I had 9 stacks at times, but no more (and I Frapsed the games to get a good look). That got me a few good hits with my sword auto attack, that’s it. If you do, let’s say, a confusion shatter with your first illusions, and then Mind Wrack + BF with your next batch, is the dps higher/is it viable in any way? And I’d like a comment from a person that actually has been playing sPvP/tPvP after the patch, not some theoretical assumptions.

I like the buff for pve reasons, but is it really affecting pvp? I’m not saying that mesmers needed this buff, but I’d like to get a reality check from pvp perspective.

Mufa.1326:

Other classes do not get to be invulnerable 25%+ of game time based on single skill to be viable.

This is in theory. People in this thread are buffing each other up until everyone thinks that mesmer is invunerable 25% of the time. C’mon guys, no mesmer uses BF like that. I have played 650 games on my mesmer and used BF less than ten times to just whip air to avoid cc or damage, and that is a desperation move. Rarely, if ever, seen other mesmers using BF like that. Maybe better mesmers than me use that move regularly, but I haven’t been in the same matches with them then.

That being said, I do think that mesmer might be a bit too strong atm and that the class needs some fixes. But so does a lot of other stuff. F.ex bunkers when glass cannons get gradually toned down.

Thank you Jon for commenting on this. Greatly appreciated

Jestersmiles.4365:

Balancing around hotjoin will be a bad choice plain and simple. The thief/rogue class being the most popular is really nothing new. It by far the most liked/played archetype in every mmo, this just back that up even more.

Well, this graph shows that warrior is the most played profession. This also from my own experience with mmo’s is not suprising. I would say warrior archtype is usually the most played:

http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/guild-wars-2-gender-profession-race-and-craft-statistics-released-15061

It also shows that thief is pretty much tied with guardians at 4th spot. Mesmer is the least played profession in the game, yet it’s 3rd most played on DeeTooDees sPvP list.

Professions that steamroll in starter/casual PvP are, imho, not good for the game, no matter how balanced they actually are in tournament/professional setting. I’m not calling for nerfs, I’m just pointing this out and trying to look things from the perspective of making PvP fun and engaging for everyone. I play mesmer as a main, so my profession of choice is not in anyway “safe” when it comes to balancing the game.

Lukin.4061:

Thirdly – you should have tested not spvp, but tpvp, then the numbers would have been a lot different.

Of course, but these statistic were not about tPvP.

I think all game modes should be observed and you can’t say that one is more important or relevant than another. Actually, I think hot join needs to be taken very seriously because it’s an entry point to new pvp players. If it’s zerg oriented, lacking tactics and filled with players who have not really grasped their profession yet, is irrelevant. What is important is are the new players having fun.

p.s Thanks for taking the time to make these statistics DeeTooDee

I have given up the delusion that I can fool other players with clones a long time ago. When you fight players with some experience under their belt, thinking my clones would fool them will get me killed. I know the real mesmer is tricky to distinguish at first, but it gets easier. Clones are not the main reason why fighting a mesmer is hard. I play a mesmer, but I also play a warrior. I have no problems to target the real mesmer on either, but winning against a mesmer with my warrior is always a triumph.

As I said before, take your time to check which is the real mesmer, the clones won’t kill you.

Yes, I forgot about The Prestige. Don’t see that around much either, but I do know that some mesmers use torch.

Anyway, not really on topic here anymore, but invisibility is a much hated “mesmer ability”, which is odd since vast majority of the mesmers, I believe, only use one stealth ability most of the time, and that gives 3 secs of invisibility. Well, it’s probably all things combined, since I don’t hear complains about rangers using stealth. Mesmers do have a lot of the good stuff in their arsenal.

I usually never use the l2p as an answer, but I can give a tip that may help you against mesmers: The clones don’t do damage, so don’t panic.

I play the profession myself and I just take my time to spot the real mesmer. I play a glass build and usually still take hardly any damage between the time a mesmer goes invisible (or teleports) and the time I spot him/her again. Only real threat is the phantasm (that is the transparent purple one, not so hard to spot) among the clones. Of course you have to worry about shatter burst (that may be too strong atm), but it would not be pvp if you didn’t have to worry about something.

I’m not saying that I don’t struggle against a good mesmer who times the clones well. But the real problem imho is when you have to fight 2+ mesmers. That gets confusing fast.

Trevos.6473:

They drop the mark with those niblet stealth skills…

Stealth skill (Decoy), not skills.

Unless they use Mass Invisibility, a 90 sec cd elite that is situational at best or Veil, also a 90 sec cd slot skill that I haven’t seen used probably ever in sPvP.

Maybe some players use oll three to good effect, but I haven’t seen any.

Osicat.4139:

Idd agree on that call for nerfs is justified if you have good argument, what I am comming at is the fact that alot of ppl hide behind a feeling of inbalance. Instead of try to fight and learn, or even take advice from ppl trying to help they give up, shut down and call for nerfs. Some times its accualy possible to find ways to fight back and in the thiefs part I am of the oppinion that with enought practice and some skill its possible for mesmers to in many cases beat even a skilled thief.

Now I do think the messmer community is fantastic in the way we accualy help eachother out and ppl dare to ask questions in threads or guides without some eletistic prick call them noob etc. I would love to keep thif forum like that and encourage al new mesmers to if you have problems with x class, build etc, ask the community for help.

I usually take month or two with a new game to even start posting about balance. During that time I try to learn the class I’ve selected, read forums for tips and tricks and builds, and play a lot of PvP. I agree that many people are, as you said, hiding behind a feeling of imbalance, instead of try to fight and learn. And I do think that thieves don’t pose any special threat to a skilled mesmer.

Osicat.4139:

If the burst aspect of pvp is fun or not is a whole other situation and as a shatter mesmer with 20k+ burst I cant say im totaly innocent eather. I totaly prefere find a solo fight in some abandoned forest in wvwvw vs a equaly skilled player of x class, but I wont say I dont enjoy find 2-3 less skilled players and burst 2 down and chase down the last with a big grin on my face .)

If you beat them with skill, it’s worth a grin

Hastur.6231:

The thing with this thread:

Come to mesmer forums to complain that thieves kill you
People tell you how not to get killed by thieves
Other people whine that it is impossible and thieves should be nerfed

By that logic, you have posted the message in the wrong forum, you come to the mesmer forum for mesmer advice, if you want to complain about thieves go to the thief forum and/or pvp/wvw depending on where you got owned.

Well, if you complain about thives as a mesmer (from mesmers point of view), this is the right forum too

Osicat.4139:

What Ppl in this thread need to deccide is what rhis thread purpose is. Atm its 50% ppl who just whine and basicly call for a nerf to this and that. This post is irrelevant and dont bring anything to the community in form of help etc. Then there is a group of players who say they can and foubd ways to deal with thiefs, but the first group is not interested in this as they rather see nerfs than learn ways to handle named situation. And ofc there in this kind of threads is a fuhre pure trolls ofc but as long they subtile and good at trolling I dont mind.

What I would like to see is for those who .accualy after learn ways to handle thiefs get som solid questions and take advice of the ppl who post films, tricks and guides etc how to handle them thiefes. Also practice is NEVER wrong, Nero told he practice often vs a high ranked tournie thief, not 1 single player who then in the comming 20 posts accualy wanted to hear this, they rayher whine for nerfs.

anyway, gl on the mesmering, nice that you filmed some thiefs battles flips, I regulary try do same, its tricky thu ad if they do a misstake they die so fast its kinda non interesting film and if they are good its become like in the last videoguide I posted a loooong fight.

Can reccomend anyone who struggle thiefes to see that part again, latest video guide last fight.

/ osicat

Learning to handle thieves or bursts in general doesn’t mean that they are balanced. Whining (as you call it) and calling nerfs is justified IF you have good arguments to support them.

In my opinion burst damage in GW2 is too high, especially when not all classes are equipped to handle it unless going into insane turtle builds, and that limits the amount of viable builds and makes the game less diverse.

I agree with you that it is also smart to learn to play against bursts or thieves, or actually against every kind of build and class. People might notice, like many have, that 100b, for example, is not so OP as they thought, perhaps not OP at all (in my opinion it’s still stupid as kitten though).

edit: I also want to post this episode of Extra Credits here (taken from,100b thread) because I find it relevant for this PvP discussion:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

Psybunny.8906:

True that Sonnet, but that is caused by the lack of viable options warriors have in pvp. We are pretty much forced to be the one trick pony and we have to bait the opponents so hard to use that trick.

Yes, I think that versatility in builds and combat is more healthy for pvp than huge boring bursts. I play 100b warrior myself sometimes and it just seems so… stale, so different from my hammer warrior in GW1 ( I mean the overall feeling of playing a melee class, not comparing the game mechanics). I hope that all classes get more good viable builds in the future.

Boloth.6879:

While it’s true hundred blades can be avoided that’s not what the OP is upset about.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

Penny Arcade nailed it again. Devs should really watch that episode.

Oh and 100b is boring, simple minded skill where you press a button and cross your fingers to see that red bar turn to darker shade.

Hastur.6231:

Snoxx.7943:

Sonnet.9840:

If you can’t see that a class like thief was/is a problem in PvP environment (where casuals are also involved), I don’t consider you a good player, no matter how good you are in actual combat.

Well said.

There is way too much discussion about how everyone (except the thief players of course) should learn to play and stuff. But in reality, every veteran MMO player can clearly see how overpowered and game-breaking thieves in their current state actually are.

I don’t even…what… ?

You too seem to be talking about two different things yet supporting each others opinions…

Sonnet is basically saying I’m a bad player cause thiefs are not a problem for me, or that I do not consider them a problem so that makes me a bad player…what ?! Because pvp should be casual !? or because its played by casual players ?!

So basically if I’d be a soccer fan and I’d play soccer against Arsenal… They need to be nerfed… or … I just don’t get the casual argument honestly. It’s pvp…

So I can only deduce that what Snoxx is adding to sonnets comment is that rogues don’t need to l2p just other professions. And that is basically his gripe with this.

Well if you read the post to which Sonnet actually replied you would have noticed that my friend that is a thief is basically one of the only thieves that can kill me 75% of the time and he has to WORK for it, I watch him play and he clicks and spams around as much as a mesmer.

I’m saying that when new players start PvP, thief is extremely strong because their burts is extremely high and easy to execute. This is very discouraging for players that start with other classes.

When you move higher up, thieves are still a problem cause their ability to burst players down don’t diminish, people just learn to avoid it better. Still, thieves have the element of supprise on their side.

At the top most level a good player is a good player and the class differences start to disappear. Also teams work together thus helping to prevent insta gibs, that were still widely reported on other threads by tournament players, at least before the Nov. 15th patch.

This is not just thief issue however. For me, allowing very high bursts from any class, including mesmer, narrows the versatility of viable builds and classes down as well as tactical gameplay (by which I mean timed bursts that includes several players instead of one, for example). On the opposing ends are bunkers and glass cannons. I think that toning down both ends creates more interesting middle ground, where some are tankier and some are burstier, but room is left for pressure builds, team support builds and defensive builds (not bunkers) as well. Also, the learning curve of the classes is more balanced leaving players more room to observe and enjoy their advancement in skill no matter what class and build they play.

edit: What I was aiming at saying that you were a bad player is not because of your skill in PvP, your personal ability to deal with bursts, but because, in my opinion, you failed to see the bigger picture. I apologize that I called you a bad player. It’s always cheap to use insults

Hastur.6231:

I play a Mesmer in sPvP and tPvP, if you would log-in on my account right now and open the pvp window you will see a great big ball of purple. I have not played any of the classes and got 100 tpvp games and 200 spvp games roughly under my belt. I have only encountered 3 thieves that could kill me consistently! (meaning 80-90% of the time I’m winning, unless its a 2-3 v 1 which now seriously this is a team game and I expect to die in those situations).

1st Thief: First week of guild wars, I did not understand that my confusion build sucks in pvp
2nd Thief: A thief on in tourneys he played a completely different game from any other rogue I ever encountered, it was backstab but he never missed a hit, he always stopped when needed, kited when needed and basically handed me the beginner manual and sent me back to Mesmer school.
3rd Thief: Is one of my friends, he wins about 75% against me…but if he misses even one skill, I lay the hurt on him. And I watched him play and he is having the worst time just staying alive and running around, thieves without a team are basically crap.

Call me ignorant for not considering thievs op! Last night I was helping my gf with her pvp daily, and we got set in different teams in sPvP and we got 300-0…then I swapped to her team and I still won with 100 point difference… people would just come at me at that point and say mesmers are OP… the guardian on their team actually did that and proceeded in calling my mother a kitten and reported me for playing a mesmer, the rest of his team didn’t share the same opinion since they were 2 mesmers and a thief and I didn’t die once in that game.

It’s sad that people come and complain so so so much on these forums and there is so much hate going around… instead of just playing the game and working around problems and when there is no longer a work around a certain build or tactic than we can call it unbalanced and call nerfs on it.

Enjoy your game people. I know I’ll enjoy it in my ignorance, with the class I chose for GW2 form my experience with GW1.

If you can’t see that a class like thief was/is a problem in PvP environment (where casuals are also involved), I don’t consider you a good player, no matter how good you are in actual combat. PvP is also about meta. And if one starting player can win with a push of a button (2) against other starting player who needs several rotations, yeah, something is wrong. It will alienate some new players from PvP and at the same time give some starting players illusion that they are good and don’t need to better themselves.

Extremely high burst, one-shot, kb/kd lock kills, stun lock kills, etc. have been a bane of so many mmo’s that it’s not even funny. And they still repeat the same mistakes.

For me the biggest problem with thieves is not 1 vs 1. With their BS combo damage now adjusted a bit, I haven’t dropped instantly. Still, most times I see it coming and then the thief is in serious trouble.

The problem arises when you’re fighting someone else. You have a good fight going and suddenly just drop dead and see a thief appear. No other class can end fights as fast as thief can without any real warning. Warriors can sometimes land their full 100b, but that you usually see coming from mile away.

I don’t like PvP where you have no time to react to a changing situation, i.e adjust to fight two people, try to escape, just have few moments to re-evaluate the situation.

I agree with OP. I’d love to see a small dueling arena in the Mists.

We used to have a “dueling ground” in AoC with dozens of people watching and challenging each other. Sort of a Fight Club. It was both fun and good testing ground for builds and techniques, even though the classes were not really balanced for that. I used to go there just to watch ppl dueling it out. Would work perfectly in the Mists and liven it up.

+1

For glass cannon shatter builds my personal preferences:

Illusionary Persona – Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well

- for me this is a must. it allows you to shatter effectively without having 3 illusions up. illusions die in combat after all, or you might not have time to get 3 up. also, you can shatter without illusions. there is a reason why it’s at 30

Mental Torment – Mind Wrack causes 20% more damage

- if you wanna go for that “big” burst

Deceptive Evasion – Create a clone at your current position when you dodge

- my choice as well, since it gives me more freedom in utility slots (i.e Mirror Images is not a must). and hey, dodge + clone = win

Illusionary Invigoration – Recharge all of your shatter skills at 50% health

- in glass cannon builds you will go under 50% a lot. why not benefit for it. there’s 90 sec cd though so that puts this trait up for debate.

Arheundel.6451:

A dinamic, fast pace combat where split second life/death decisions can be made, we can’t ask for anything more in a MMO.

Getting out of burst that kills you in less than 2 secs is not a decision, it’s a reflex, same as dodging a speeding car that’s about to hit you. I personally dislike this type of PvP and based on GW1 PvP was expecting something lot different, i.e slower paced combat with an actual choreography, time for reactions and counter reactions, a combat that flows and takes skill and has a learning curve (f.ex. knowing the skills of other classes).

I’m an “old” guy, I don’t have reflexes of a 19 year old. That’s why I don’t play FPS PvP. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t react fast sometimes to get an upper hand. I’m saying it’s not a PvP I like when you have to react within a second to stay alive (it’s ok though if you face multiple opponents, but at the moment one player can squash you extremely fast).

Just my 2c

Hi all,

Here’s my steampunk stormtrooper. I haven’t seen anyone wearing armor even close to this style, but I love it and decided early on that this is what I’ll go for. Sometimes I’ll change the colors for funzies (like during halloween), but this is my “default” color.

Head, chest and boots are SE; Gloves CoF; Shoulders and pants CM; I also use AC great sword that doesn’t show in this picture. Some pieces are of course transmuted for stats, just keeping the look.

Cheers!

dreztina.4820:

Did a bit of pvp this morning. The smallest number of mesmers I saw on enemy teams was five, ranging up to seven at times. The class is already a hardcore fotm.

However tempting it is to use that as a base of argument, don’t. Yesterday there was a match with 6 thieves on an opposing team (8vs8 full teams). I could have taken a screen and posted another thread on how fotm and op (or whatever) thief is. I took 10min break and started on another server. On the first match there was not a single thief in a 16 player match.

The only way to reliable determine how much some class is played is to give statistics from a reasonable time period drawn straight from the game data.

Personally I’ve never seen that many mesmers (5+) on either side. But yes, mesmer is probably more popular than many other classes both in tPvP and sPvP.

Killyox.3950:

Actually imo there is 1 more fix needed to mesmer.

Phantasms need to do reduced damage after their first time. So when Duelist unloads for the first time for like 4-5k his second unload should do 2-2,5k max. Then 3rd should do 1-2k max etc.

Oh and Duelist should have his 100% projectile finisher taken down to 20%. It’s crazy how he can do 8 projectile finishers and apply for exaple 8 confusion stacks :P

This sounds like a good suggestion. Although I think it’s time for Anet to do the same thing they did with GW1, split pvp and pve skills. Lowering phantasm damage in pve is not in any way necessary. This also applies to a lot of thief skills that have been adjusted, and probably to various other skills that have been toned down for multiple classes.

GS/Staff Mesmer is one of the strongest dungeon classes and a real gem to have in any dungeon team. Personally I would rank mesmer right after guardian for dungeons. The damage to team buffing ratio is second to none.

Jacobin, I understand your argument and it’s a valid one. Still, if I were a GW2 game developer, I would not search for topics with provocative names, but ones with well argumented discussion of the state of sPvP.

Back to the topic though.

I played GW1 for years myself as a casual pvp’er. I found the GvG scene a bit too elitist to be bothered with, although I always wanted to try it with good casual guild. When GW2 came out I had a group of friends and acquaintances that I knew from other games ready to get into pvp. Sadly, opposite of how it was advertised, the content was lacking and people indeed hopped to Pandaria (mind you I have never played WoW myself) or back to LoL and the likes. Although the group was not hardcore, they were experienced and avid pvp players that could have been mid range tournament gamers in GW2. Again I’m in a situation where I just play PvE and casual hot join or WWW and won’t be bothered with tPvP. I might give it a try however if there would be an easy entry level and some kind of ladder in place.

I also think that the meta should be fixed asap. GW1 (and let’s not kid ourselves, that’s the obvious comparison we will make, not because it’s in anyway similar to GW2, but because it’s maybe the best pvp mmo to date and made by the same developers) had tons of build options and ever shifting meta in it’s prime. It’s early for GW2 I know, but some basic polishing and structures are needed, rather sooner than later.

admiralnlson.2380:

yup, thread merge = less visibility. gj…

why not merge all threads in this section into one even?
They are all sPvP feedback threads after all. Gosh

Why should we have several topics discussing the same PvP issues , when one constructive topic with good arguments has better chance to stay on the 1st page longer (we already have tons of thief topics flying around and I personally wish that this discussion would stay more compact and purposeful)? It’s also easier for people conserned about PvP issues to post in one topic instead of several. Jacobins video was already posted on this topic and only thing missing was his written shorter version of the matters he talks there. I only wish there were stickies in this forum.

edit: Also, I think that ‘PvP Feedback’ is a better title for serious discussion than likes of “This game is dying”, although it’s too vague.

Merge this topic with Pray’s and sticky it so that everyone who cares about pvp can post here and devs actually see it every time they come to sPvP forum.

GankSinatra.2653:

I mean how awesome is it if a team gets destroyed at each pvp fight then ends up winning just cause they killed a pve lord or last hitted a pve creep.

Well, this was pretty much the case in GW1 GvG. A team could win by killing a Guild Lord even though they seemed to be losing the whole time. It just means that people would have to focus on actual tactics, objectives that game designers placed there for a reason. I see no point in maps with a Win condition and objectives if they don’t matter at all, or just a tiny bit.

I don’t pretend to be a game designer and right out tell Anet what they should do. I just know that the current system is weird and unrewarding, and I would call it bad game design. GW1 casual pvp, even with the leechers, was much better designed and helluva more rewarding in this respect.

I hate to say this, but I would have never thought that Anet could design such a flawed system where you get rewards for zerging rather than playing the objectives.

The scoreboard at the end of the game has zero useful information and should be removed. It’s just a cause for feeling bad, especially if you actually tried to win the game. 4 “top ranking” players in a losing team, really? Top players that just zerged (at enemy spawn) ignoring cap points, really? Least glory for a player that successfully defended under water point the whole game, really? Least glory for a player who took down opposing Lord singlehandedly earning 150 points for the team, really? Awful game design right there.

The current systems also favors classes that can easily tag multiple players.

I don’t care if the glory gain stays as it is, just don’t show it at the end as something that everyone should aim at. Then please give the winning team a token that they can use to get something that everyone least bit interested in cosmetics WILL WANT (or points toward a title, or whatever).

2c

This close to release, this is the best pvp I’ve played in an mmo. I’ve played mmo’s and pvp over 10 years.

GW2 pvp has many problems and lack of variety in game modes/maps, but it has really potential pvp setup that just needs a bit more polishing and time to evolve. Hopefully Anet will make the effort.

GW1 is/was the best pvp I’ve seen in mmo so far. Tactical evolving gameplay, e-sporty, team strategy oriented, fun to watch, and it rewarded skill which heavily included situational awareness, like in SC2 f.ex.

I think it’s the Arcane Fragment (orb, crystal, sliver):

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/56825-a-general-how-to-on-crafting-pvp-gear/

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/55030-pvp-mystic-forge-recipes/

Daecollo.9578:

Fix yourselves before you attempt to fix another persons class

It’s not just another persons class or your class or my class, thief is everyone’s class as are all the other classes. It takes 10 minutes max to get a new character out of starter area and start pvp:ing. This thread (and many others) are about pvp balance, and therefore about having fun in pvp. Not about nerfing a class that is “unique” to just some players.

+1

Hot join has become a demented zerg fest. No point in playing the game of conquest, just run around as a group, kill stuff and prosper – win or lose.

Zyrusticae has some good suggestions there that have worked well on other games.

The system is pretty flawed for sPvP aswell. You get better rewards for randomly running around killing stuff than actually winning the game. So why aren’t the maps arenas then if objectives matter much less tha kills?

It’s kinda sad that you can single handedly earn your team 150 points (almost 1/3 of points needed for a win) by killing a lord and still finish last in glory, including the opposite team. Also sad that your team can win by a wide margin and still get a lot less glory than the losing team. Current system also makes it better for 5+ people to stand capping a point getting glory rather than some of then running for the next objective needed for a win.

Sure current system prevents leeching somewhat, but it also makes playing the actual game of conquer basically pointless.

Stuck on thiskittenquest for TWO WEEKS. I’ve tried it for 6-7 times now, all taking half an hour before seeing if it’s bugged or not. Storyline quests should be at the top of the fix list imo.