Guild Wars 2

I miss build variety. I miss a world that was modified by your actions. I miss heroes and henchman. I miss signet of capture. I miss vanquishing. I miss expansions that had meaningful content updates. I miss having a company behind the product that had not decided to build the highest budget F2P monetization trap ever produced. I miss the influence of Jeff Strain.

The worst part, is most of what I spent I feel was completely worthless after the ascended gear announcement. There was no point in leveling up alts to 80, not much point in gathering up exo gear with skins as they are….

sigh

One patch, nullifies nearly all spending and tears a nearly irreparable hole in the fabric of immersion for the game.

Gehenna.3625:

Well, the reason could be to do something instead that you do enjoy. I mean there’s no reason to play when you don’t enjoy would be my way of phrasing it.

Options are slim right now, and I still feel like after the cash I spent on the game I should at least finish up the areas of the game I enjoy enough to play on all alts. I haven’t gone through the full story mode on each yet. By the time I’ve done that, I’ll have that nice dollar per hour ratio that feels fitting and justifiable and will see if anything has changed for the better.

Poledo.3256:

Too much analysis. Does SAB look like fun? That is the only thing that matters. If it doesn’t look like fun then I’m sorry, maybe the next update will have something for you. Can’t win them all.

It’s the only thing that matters to you. Does it fun and does it fit the setting matters to me. I’m ok with a type of content not appealing to me. In Forza there were race types and car types I didn’t care for. “Can’t win them all” applies there. If they would have introduced car jacking with a cinematic crime story behind it, that’s not the same situation.

Some of this content dilutes the whole because it picks up immersion by the neck and shakes it like a stray dog would a rat. What is left behind is tainted, like leaking oil into the ocean. You just don’t swim and step around the oil and enjoy the fresh saltwater beaches. If you like oil, you’re in luck. You have both oil and the beach to enjoy. If you don’t like oil…

funkylovemonkey.3097:

So I wait patiently, but I certainly don’t begrudge those who really liked SAB the last time.

I don’t begrudge them either. This appears to be a game tailor made for them. The graphics are wonderful. The events are frequent and require very little long term attention. I’m glad they’ve found something incredibly fun for them. They can jump into SAB with a Dreamer and fire unicorns at 8-bit raccoons.

What is a disappointment, what is bewildering, is that this is all happening in GW2. It’s like a flavor of ice cream called “Maximus Neopolitanis” where it features the flavors of strawberry, bubble gum, chocolate, chili peppers, vanilla, mint, beef, asparagus and cheddar cheese.

You have no idea what they’re trying to get at other than “make sure there’s a little something in there for everyone!”

Mirta.5029:

Not to attack your post, but can the player base choose what they want?
“We want SAB, SAB was the best, please make it return, I want it now” posts were seen trough out the whole summer.
Sab announces its return
“this game is no longer serious, it’s a themepark, it’s like Tyria Online and not GW anymore!”
Sometimes I think that this is precisely why we’re not being the developers of the game – the game would contradict itself hard if we were the ones making it

Those are two different playerbases. They know which is larger and their content choices are strong indicators of what they know.

Mirta.5029:

1. SAB mostly caters to old nostalgic gamers rather than children. Would children know just how significant 2D games were to us? How much innovation Mario brought by using the technology of ever repeating background? Did the see 8bit turn to 16, then turn to 32?

I don’t think either of us can answer who the content caters to. You say it caters to old nostalgic gamers, but I’m one of those and do not find it fitting for GW2. I do enjoy a little CubeWorld now and then, I play old school platformers and Nintendo emulators. I just don’t expect to do these things in GW2, I do not want to do them in GW2.

Mirta.5029:

2. Unlike you I do believe that the game has soul, a lot of soul. It even provides social commentary on the world. Asura are creating portals and robots, would you really think gaming would be out of their grasp? NPCs discussing next to it with words like “I wonder if one day we could all have a personal SAB in our home” just shows a similar discussion that was going on in real life when first arcade pintball machines showed up and when first computers in general showed up. I think that it’s a well thought addition when it comes both to real life and the lore.

No, I don’t think it would be out of their grasp. I also do not think that hardened charr warriors would drop what they’re doing with the threats looming over their world and escape into a virtual reality 16bit game simulator. It’s certainly not what I log into GW2 to do.

Mirta.5029:

3. If you can’t see it as something serious then there’s always another explanation – easter eggs. In a lot of games there’s always a room, an item, a person that does not fit in with the context of the whole game, instead it normally represents a tribute, or a joke that the developer wanted to share with the rest of the crowd. And to be honest this is quite common in MMOs http://www.wowwiki.com/Easter_eggs

SAB. Quaggan Backpacks. Jumping Puzzles. The Dreamer. Moot. Kites. These aren’t Easter Eggs. SAB is an entire update. The Dreamer is one of the legendary weapons. 8 foot tall charr warriors are running around Lion’s Arch with a kite trailing behind them and a mini Queen Jennah in tow.

It’s evolved, but it certainly seems like the evolution has been towards gem-shop tie-ins with “activity of the week” themes. It’s puzzling because I like the concept of bi-weekly content updates. It just becomes more and more difficult with each update to take a game seriously that they don’t.

AndrewSX.3794:

A single char.
With a single build.
With a single weapon combination.
With a single armor and trinkets stat allocation.

Yeah. Sounds (not) fun.

You’re just not seeing the greatest benefit: You won’t have to worry about the glacial pace of increased build diversity or the lack of a meaningful non-pure-dps role in PvE content.

I am not quitting. Yes, my desire to play has reached near zero, even to recoup the cash investment, but there is no reason to quit when it costs me nothing to play while hoping to see some change in direction. I will continue to play, with a different level of enthusiasm and hope as before, but am not quitting. This is criticism, but criticism from a single person’s perspective. An Op-Ed

Since that’s out of the way lest there be any confusion:

Imagine for a moment you were watching Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring. Sure, there were some typical fantasy cheese elements to the movie, but it was great. If not your favorite movie of all time, it was still a great movie. Then you drop in Lord of the Rings: The Twin Towers. At first things are normal, but then Monty Python shows up. Skeletor attacks the shire. Speed Racer whisks the party away to safety. Mario drops in to bounce on a few orc heads.

None of those things are bad things on their own. I love Monty Python. I was a huge fan of He-Man and Speed Racer. Who doesn’t love Mario?

I would still find the movie puzzling and without a soul. It wouldn’t fit. I would feel confused as to who exactly the movie was made for. Add in that, as you watch the movie, vendors pace the aisles selling you Monthy Python, He-Man, Speed Racer and Mario trinkets. Now you’re not only confused, you’re disappointed. When you realize that they’re not even selling all of the trinkets directly, but are selling dice rolls for some of the more interesting items… your disappointment turns sour.

Am I alone in feeling this way about the direction of Guild Wars 2? What happened to its soul? What does it want to be? Is it just meant to be a Six Flags of the MMO world, with content to please every possible taste and trend? A beautifully rendered activity box?

Perhaps it is just me. I may be a niche. Maybe I’ve grown too old and the demographic for MMOs has shifted so significantly that they are no longer even trying to cater to my tastes. I’m curious what everyone else thinks. For me, the SAB “Back to School” coming right as children in the US are going back to school was a final grain of sand tipping the scale from hopeful optimism to bewildered disappointment.

Gehenna.3625:

Oh how much easier it would’ve been if the level cap had been 40 or 50 even. Then there would’ve been less leveling zones and adding new ones for a level cap raise would still be ok.

There was this one game where the level cap was 20. It was 20 through years worth of content expansions and seemed to work out great.

Vayne.8563:

Have fun wherever you end up.

Oh, I’ll be around. There is no subscription fee. Playing a little now and then to see what has changed costs me nothing. There is always the chance things turn a different direction. This isn’t an “I quit” thread, this is a “I’ll play now because I’m bored, but like a marriage that’s become more habit than passion, I kind of don’t care what you do anymore.”

Galtrix.7369:

I think that’s what the op is trying to get at here. Since they’re bringing back SAB, future content will be similar to it. At least, that’s what I think his point is.

My point is simliar to that, but I don’t know how to describe the content. It’s not necessarily childish, though the “Back to School” tagline certainly made it suddenly like watching a TV commercial for clothes at JC Penny. It’s just that they don’t seem to care about the integrity of their world anymore. If it’s fun, it goes in. If they find a way to put in a little Forza racing? In it goes. Goofy FPS mode? Why not. It’s fun!

The game has no soul. It’s a collection of fun activities, like a Six Flags. It’s a fantasy/sci-fi themed activity box.

Kyrel.8942:

There was even a petition thread to make it permanent.

Yeah. I read around the forums here and on the internet. I saw almost nothing but praise. This means there is something about me that is abnormal compared to the majority. Maybe I just grew old when I wasn’t looking. I don’t know how to explain the vast difference in what I’m looking for and what is popular here. Perhaps MMOs, as my primary game type, are not for me any more and I’ll have to content myself with single player RPGs until this phase of the industry passes.

Vayne.8563:

But it’s essentially an Asuran invention to teach kids how to be adventurers. Its that really so deal breaking to you?

If you never enter the box, it doesn’t exist.

Yes, it is that deal breaking. SAB represents significant effort on their part. Effort that did not go into other PvE content. It’s tremendously popular. They will put more effort into it because it’s popular. This means I have little in common with both their vision of the game and what the general player community wants out of the game.

If I don’t like steak, Ruth’s Chris steakhouse isn’t a wise place to go for dinner. Sure, you can get something else, but their menu specializes in something I wouldn’t care for (I do love steak though!).

The menu here specializes in content like SAB. Re-introducing it alongside an actual back to school period for US children and calling it back to school… It’s a minor thing, but like sand trickling onto one side of the scale, it’s one minor thing among many other minor things.

I have to believe that the issue is me, not the game, not ArenaNet, but me. Evidently, since the release of GW1, WoW, LotRO, AoC, to now, some tectonic shift in the MMO demographic has occurred and I just didn’t notice.

I thought SAB was a quirky thing to toss in for an April Fool’s gag. Sure, it grabbed immersion by the collar and shook it like a stray dog would a rat, but it was April Fool’s. I hoped that, when the update page showed signs that SAB would be coming back, that it was just some information about either making it a separate game you can log into or just some news about updates that will come with its release again in April.

Instead, it’s back, again, and with “Back to School” as its tagline… just as children in the US are enjoying back to school sales at the local Target.

Is there a general outcry? Are people lining up en masse saying, “At what point did you decide the lore behind the game, the legacy of GW1, was just an inconvenient barrier to introducing content the way Six Flags offers rides?” No, it’s met with widespread praise.

I am clearly not part of the group this game has been built to appeal to. Unlike a Disney movie, I can’t sit down with my child and enjoy it as much for how it influences her as I do the incredible artwork.

I made the mistake, three weeks ago, of thinking that the QP updates and information regarding more permanent content were a sign the game was heading back in a direction I could get behind. I could forgive the made for teens narrative as the gameplay was good enough to keep me engaged while the more weighty content came in. I spent a little money on gold (gems->gold) and extra character slots… now I have tremendous regret over those purchases.

Jumping Puzzles. Blatant F2P monetization. Quaggan backpacks. SAB with “Back to School” updates. Ascended gear. Loss of build diversity. Made for teen writing. Lack of even a conversation about what’s wrong with the PvE content meta-game (where pure zerk dps is all that matters). Legendaries like “The Dreamer”.

What happened to the soul of this franchise? I want to love the game for what it is. My purchase history shows that, partially as homage to the memories of GW1 and partially out of hope for what this game could be, I was willing to give it a serious chance.

This SAB update has stripped me of any desire to play. Not even to feel like I got something out of the cash investment. I’m sorry, but the game has gone from a fun twist on fantasy to just being silly. It’s Jake and the Netherland Pirates rather than Pirates of the Caribbean. There’s a demographic that loves Jake and his treasure hunting friends, but I’m not a part of it. I’m sure I’ll kick back by from time to time, it requires no subscription afterall, but what little hope I had left for the world of Tyria is fading.

Like the Diablo franchise after Diablo 3, GW2 was my last automatic purchase from ArenaNet. Years worth of brand loyalty, that would have come along for the ride here too, has been snuffed out.

Aberrant.6749:

Once again… if you want to buy these skins you can now buy them off of the tp. That was a huge move towards reducing any ethical problems (or whatever) people may have. Now nothing is forcing you to gamble with the BL keys…

These skins do not drop in the normal world to appear on the TP for sale. Someone goes through the unethical steps to acquire them before putting them up for sale. If I buy shoes at Wal-Mart made in some foreign country by enslaved children, that doesn’t absolve them of any guilt or blame.

A game with horizontal progression has already made the value statement for everyone that gear is not about stats. Since that’s out of the way, what is left for people to desire?

Aesthetics.

Since that is all that matters with gear, how it looks, then we shouldn’t have to play games with semantics over whether it’s required or not. A primary reward mechanism for the game has been skewed to push people to randomized cash shop mechanics that are akin to nickel slot machines.

You’re immune and are fine with other skins that are available. That’s great. It doesn’t mean they haven’t taken what used to be a pure “experience content and earn rewards” experience and polluted it with cash shop mechanics that are on shaky ethical ground.

There is a gem shop sale going on. Who is more likely to buy gems, someone with too little gold to convert to half the gems they need, or someone with no gold at all? Who is more likely to buy gems, someone who sees a flat exchange rate, or someone that sees that in the last week the gold you can get per gem has gone up around 40%?

It will be addressed after the sale or once they see the numbers on the gold to gem conversions trailing off, but not until.

DarksunG.9537:

Unleashed.6195:

While the back and forth is enlightening, it has little to do with the thread. Not to mention, when contrasted against a setting that is fine dropping in characters like Scarlet, it looks a little bit like debating the true origin of Santa’s elves or the Hamburgler.

That’s cute, but it actually does. It’s possible they can retcon Scarlet to not be what she is. They’ve done it with much better characters, why not with a poor one?

They don’t consider her a poor character. They don’t want the same thing from their lore and world that you or I do. Their intent is not to produce complex, believable characters that leave you wondering whether you would support or work against them if given the choice. They want villains that fit in a world with SAB and The Dreamer and stuffed animal backpacks.

Rynarx.6124:

I read an interesting article a few days when ESO announce they are going to be subscription based. The article mentioned that subscription provide a more stable and predictable funding and this usually translate into bigger development budget and hence why games like ESO and Wildstar are going subscription. B2p/F2p games usually have fluctuating funding and hence may limit what can be allocate for the development of ongoing content.

F2P monetizes better than B2P or B2P + Sub, at least that has been the case thus far with every subscription to F2P transition for MMOs in recent times. Everything from TF2 to LotRO to Rift has enjoyed increases in both player number and revenue.

Their explanation for why they want to be B2P or B2P + Sub is that they do not want to have to make the gameplay compromises that come with F2P monetization strategies. They want to keep their old relationship with us, the one that had them making things as fun as they possibly could and asking for money for the experience. If they go down the F2P path, they know what that means and how it will change their jobs. It’s the struggle between games as an art and built out of passion for their hobby and games as a business. They are always balanced against one another, but F2P monetization strategies tip the scale much further towards games as a business and away from what drew most of us to make games in the first place.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

It’s all subjective. You’re seeing exploitative monetization schemes and altered design where they may or may not actually exist.

Black Lion Chests + Keys isn’t a difficult example to break down into how it is exploitative.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

I’ve personally never seen a more reasonable, less invasive cash shop. And I’m satisfied with just knowing that 1) I can earn everything in it by trading gold for gems (and at a rate I consider reasonable) and 2) That nothing in said gem shop is required for me to play or enjoy the game.

There will always be players in a free-to-play game who achieve everything they want to without the cash shop despite their design being both exploitative and in opposition to the best interests of gameplay as a whole.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

At the end of the day, content isn’t being designed to be dysfunctional without the cash shop. Even election participation was easily done without any use of the cash shop. As for RNG – who cares? It’s skins. It’s always been skins – and skins that you can buy from other players via the tp at that. Skins are irrelevant towards actual game design even in a horizontal progression game. Why? Because tastes are subjective and there are a multitude of skins that appeal to various tastes available through pretty much every method of play.

If a game were not free-to-play microtransaction based as this one is, and those new skins you don’t care about were placed on a raid boss or difficult to kill world boss, it would not change anything about the game for you. If they were placed on an actual slot machine, where three cherries in a row won you the item skin, that would also not change the game for you. How you play and enjoy the game as an individual player does not define whether or not they’re using exploitative practices, nor does it answer the question of whether or not they’re negatively impacting gameplay design to feed the cash gem shop.

Ask yourself how different this event series would be without the gem shop? What would it look like if gems were not involved? That’s the root of the issue. It’s a game built around monetization. It’s a different product. A different relationship between us and the developer.

The exchange used to be “I’m going to make something as fun as I possibly can and ask you to pay for it”. Now it’s much more opaque and indirect. It has as much in common with a carnival game or gambling as pre-free-to-play gaming.

While the back and forth is enlightening, it has little to do with the thread. Not to mention, when contrasted against a setting that is fine dropping in characters like Scarlet, it looks a little bit like debating the true origin of Santa’s elves or the Hamburgler.

Aberrant.6749:

I’m 100% fine with cash shops supporting games as long as they don’t sell power. A-net has done a very good job of not doing that.

I’d add “as long as they don’t sell power and also do not employ exploitative monetization schemes nor alter game design with the gem shop in mind.”

This game has done an excellent job with first of those three, but is consistently allowing the last two to happen.

iFocus.3781:

Here is what we all MUST make a stand on:
1 Gemstore
2 Subscription

This isn’t the only choice. I’ll bring up GW1 not because it was a perfect game and I feel GW2 must be GW1, but because it had a solid model and is from the very same company (thought it does not often feel like it).

Another choice would be, no subscription, but a gem store that was not built such that it negatively impacts the rest of the game. The most significant positive impact the gem store has had is the ability to purchase currency from a legitimate source.

I find the design of black lion chests and keys to be abhorrent. The introduction of very interesting weapon skins connected to that design in a random way is even more abhorrent. One time use armor skins that sell for $10. It’s this creeping in of the very worst aspects of free-to-play microtransaction monetization strategies that I would have never expected to see from ArenaNet so long as they remained somewhat independent of NCSoft.

Too much of the unique and differentiating content of the game has been introduced via gems rather than normal gameplay. The argument that you can use gold to convert to gems doesn’t hold water because the more you do this, the worse the exchange rate becomes, negating any ability you may have to earn meaningful gem shop wealth via game mechanics.

Their current strategy has changed their relationship with us. Their gem shop goals and gameplay goals are at odds with one another. They want you to enjoy the game, to find the rewards both in terms of fun and items meaningful and worth pursuit. If they do this though, and put everything of value into the game, achievable by normal people with normal lives in terms of time commitment, then they can’t monetize you with them.

When it comes time to decide “Do we make Zodiac Skins drop from some new set of world events… like say, maybe the Clockwork Chaos series we introduced at the same time or do we put them behind thinly veiled gambling mechanics on the gem shop?”

It’s easy to see what they decided and what they will most often decide in the future.

zeromius.1604:

Nuka Cola.8520:

right now its 18 gems for 1g… At these prices people defending gem store with their bs comments such as “Anet is giving you choice of buying stuff with dollars or in game money” becomes irrelevant, completely irrelevant. wtf will happen in 4 months? 3 gems for 1g? i mean what in the kittend of bullkitten is this? Anet is pretty much forcing you to spend real dollars if you want to buy anything on their store.

You do realize that you’re buying gems from other players that are buying gold with those gems right? You’re not buying gems from ArenaNet.

Players do affect the exchange rate, but no, this is not what is happening. If no one traded in gold for gems, players would not suddenly be unable to purchase gems for lack of inventory. If players stopped buying gems for cash, players would not suddenly be unable to trade in their gold for gems.

Pricing is just one issue though. The bigger issue is the release of content that would be otherwise fun to achieve by completing new dungeons (like the Zodiac skins) attached to RNG gem shop items. The Chest/BLC Key system is cancerous.

Barabbas.8715:

“Crazy” is a term used by people who don’t understand the intricacies of psychological disorders.

Or… it’s used as a way to generalize someone’s behavior in a single word when those intricacies are immaterial.

DethWarrior.8316:

Has anyone else had similar problem?

Yes, I had this yesterday. More than once, I was running alone to waypoints I did not yet have and despite there being no one else around, not even minions of hers, she spawned directly on me. I thought… well, I’m certain I deserved this somehow. A likely reaction of all married men to being mercilessly hunted by a crazy woman.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I disagree. Again, “Xenosaga” with a bit of “Metal Gear Solid” thrown in. A game is a game, and bending the game to suit the story risks ruining the gameplay at that moment when it happens. And all you need is one moment like that to cause someone to get yanked out of your cleverly crafted game/story dance and start pulling other threads.

To clarify, the point was that in an RPG, there is normally some lore or story behind what’s going on. Races are defined, factions, classes/professions. This requires writing. The setting in which the game is played is brought on by writers, artists and engineers.

You may decide that everyone needs to work together to slay a dragon or a giant. Story set the theme, now gameplay fills in gaps. Where there are gaps in gameplay, you fill them in with story again.

I am not looking for interactive movies or 3D novels (not from games at least). I am however looking for people to treat the craft of writing with the same level of care and scrutiny that they do for the artwork or engineering that goes into the game.

Guild Wars 2 requires experts at the very highest level of talent in their field in concept art, 3D modelling, texturing, animation, VFX, sound design and engineering. This push for expertise and quality doesn’t turn the game into a showcase for any individual skill listed there. We should not be happy that the writing, the glue that holds all of it together and helps make us care what is going on, is not held to the same standard.

Perhaps even there you disagree, and that’s fine, I won’t belabor the point any further. I just want them to take the writing as seriously as they do the concept art.

I agree as far as tone is concerned, but disagree that some tones give license to drop any need for quality. In varying layers, in an RPG at least, the story must serve the game and the game must serve the story. Neither is in one-sided service to the other.

Take Arrested Development for example. They’ve kept the tone in that series, but lost the quality in the writing. Where the old episodes are often incredible, worthy of watching repeatedly after letting them settle for a while, the new episodes are disappointing and difficult to sit through (I stopped two episodes in).

I read the short story for Scarlet/Ceara. It’s difficult to say that couldn’t have been done better while still keeping the necessary gameplay elements and narrative movers intact. Even just the scene where she wakes up could be reworked to improve the quality without changing any of the overall narrative.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The problem is not that they’re horrible writers, it’s either that people want to hold them to a high standard (they are not Stephen King, George R.R. Martin, or Neil Gaiman, nor will they be; I’d like to think they’re more Richard Castle) . . . or the writing takes a backseat to the game.

I wouldn’t assume they’re horrible writers either, especially in the context of the game they’re producing. It feels intentional, not accidental. However, we should require higher standards from the writing in games. We demand the very high standards in artwork, animation, gameplay design and infrastructure management. Writing should not continue to get a free pass because it’s a game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Personally, if I was ANet’s writers I’d stop trying altogether since people keep lobbing cannonballs at the story no matter what they do.

That’s not fair. We don’t know the root issue at work here. What I’ve decided to go with is that they’re intentionally presenting a less mature story and have not yet found how to do that without also lowering the quality of the writing. They’ve decided that their current tone better fits into the mood of a game where you have 8-bit dungeons and stuffed animal backpacks and jumping puzzles. If you had the story of Westeros or The Road but suddenly someone whips out a mace that is a disco ball with trumpets on the side or a bow that shoots rainbows…

If it’s not intentional, we still don’t know the root cause. Perhaps there is someone without a writing background making decisions that force the hands of the writers. It takes several steps to move all the way down to the writers themselves doing their best but not getting any slack, so they should just “give up”.

No matter what, there are two things that absolutely will not help them. One is their giving up, the other is not hearing any constructive criticism. It is hard to hear, when you’re trying so very hard to do a good job, that you’re not. But, if everyone lacks the courage to tell you that you’re not doing a good job you’re unlikely to ever reach your full potential.

Cyan.6904:

Cliche and lacks an valid argument, do better next time.

At least one of those words is being misused.

Here’s a more clearcut way of stating it: People that have taken little time to enjoy quality literature make poor critics, one way or another, of other literature. They have no basis by which to judge what they’re reading. They may as well judge wines after drinking nothing but a lifetime of domestic beer.

Thalador.4218:

Ironically, that proverb fits you bad writing & plothole lovers just as well – if not more.

I assumed that’s what he meant.

“The most promising student he had ever instructed, conducting most important experiment of his long and storied career, and all he could do was stand idle and fret.”

Should be:

“The most promising student he had ever instructed, conducting the most important experiment of his long and storied career, and all he could do was stand idle and fret.”

Cyan.6904:

These short stories are always great to read, and are a huge slap in the face for all the people who claim the writing around this game is poor.

Those that eat only water and oats are rarely suitable critics of other dishes.

Living Story updates are snacks, Expansions are meals. No matter how many snacks you cobble together on a plate, calling them a meal is a stretch and not what most people expect.

They’ve been consistent, both in their press releases and subsequent responses. The reason it’s easy to land on confusion is that, much like the “Everything you loved about GW1”, what “typically find in expasions” refers to is vague and open to interpretation.

Huge new area rivaling the original game in scope? New classes? New abilities for existing classes? New dungeons? Large quantity of new skins not attached to free-to-play cash shop Black Lion keys?

None nor all of those are certain as “typically find in an expansion” does not have a definition any more tightly scoped than “everything you loved about GW1”.

Locuz.2651:

And since MMOs are games with very diverse mechanics and content, there is literally always something to whine about.

Almost always something to praise as well. I’ve never had characters look as great and unique in a game as they do in GW2, nor has it ever been easier for me to get in and play end game content.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

The only thing I will say to this is that is your interpretation of what the game is meant to be. You are welcome to it of course, but I wouldn’t be so surprised that not everyone shares the same vision you do.

I would be astonished if everyone agreed with me. I try to do my best to assume I’m part of the minority, especially when it comes to games. I’m old. I have a child. I enjoy books more than movies. I spend a good sum on free-to-play games like this one that pique my interest, but not on the honey traps they put in them. Those actually make a little bile rise in my throat because I can see them for what they are. I know what they mean the developer thinks of their playerbase. I recognize the change in relationship between the developer and myself as a result. If a game goes too far into that territory, I don’t mind cutting my losses and running.

Those things combined probably put me into a niche category when looking at the overall player base. I’m good with that.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Having said all this, if I may offer a small opinionated suggestion about the tone of your post. You may want to avoid using phrases like “first thing you need to do” it strikes me as giving a decree and speaks from a tone of absolutes as if what you are trying to present is fact. This may not be your intention, but it is certainly how I read it.

Great point, it’s not how I meant it. In my mind, I was thinking more like an old Julia Child cooking show where she walks through the steps to achieve the final result of a recipe. “The next thing you need to do, is stir!”

I’ll edit it, I can see how it would be read that way.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Anyhow, I am glad that you enjoy the game and have found your happiness! As for me while I do enjoy many aspects of GW2, the current design trends leave me scratching my head and doubting my longevity with the game that in my opinion is failing to deliver on so much untapped potential in favor of mass appeasement.

I wouldn’t read my happiness with the game as a sign I’m here for the long term. I sat through Transformers the movie. It was a beacon of my childhood and though it was abysmal, I flipped off the part of my mind that cares about things like plot and reality, the same part that sees the ending scene and was waiting for “4.9% APR” to appear on the screen. I just enjoyed the VFX and moved on. It was a spectacle, a VFX wonder. For that, I was happy with it.

I’m happy with GW2 for what it is, but it’s not the type of game I hope to see common in five years. I hope this free-to-play infestation, the wal-marting of content and complete disregard for setting and tone go the way of the dinosaur. I hope GW3 is part of that trend of respecting itself enough to build something you can feel is as meaningful as a good book when you’re done. Until such time, I will enjoy this game for what it is for as long as I’m able while I wait.

Xelios.9145:

First thing you need to do — stop telling others how to play their game and what expectations to have. The assumption everyone will be happier if they play the game like you and lower their expectations to yours is quite pompous.

I didn’t say anything about how to play the game. I mentioned in the previous thread, when in a river moving downstream, the options are swim or go to shore. No amount of irritation will turn the river around.

Xelios.9145:

Second thing you need to do — stop pointing out what others have subjectively noted as flaws, playing apologist for them and trying to convince those people to accept them as objectively well-designed features.

That a strawberry does not taste like an orange is not a flaw, no matter if you love oranges or hate them. “This does not suit my taste” is not the same as “this is not very good”.

Xelios.9145:

Lastly, your original post must have been extremely antagonizing because this one isn’t much better; you’re still talking down to people who aren’t like-minded.

It’s easily found, I mostly adjusted sentences people were reading as belittling the game to be more clear as to my intent. I’m not talking down to anyone. I’m explaining a point of view. I try to be clear and direct. I admit I’ll rise when provoked and take a jab or two, and I apologize for that, but the OP isn’t condescending or offensive to those that disagree. Just offering a vantage point.

Xelios.9145:

Bonus: Do you even PvP?

You mean, do I even lift bro? Not much in GW2. I find the WvW to be, as large scale PvP has always been, mostly about mashing large groups together. sPvP seems decent, but my competitive PvP days are behind me. I’m more interested in narrative, setting and quality of “do it on your owntime” cooperative gameplay these days.

superbeast.9873:

Great post highlighting the flaws of the game, thanks for reposting.

It’s not a post highlighting flaws.

Please do not let this turn into the same back and forth arguing that caused the closure of the original thread. Stay classy. I’ve gone through and modified the post where language could be misinterpreted as antagonistic to help everyone stay friendly. The conversation that resulted outside of the sniping was worthwhile and relevant, and felt it worth reposting to rekindle it. If it devolves again, I’ll delete the thread myself

It took several weeks for this to sink in. I’m happier with the game now than I ever have been (still working out some of the kinks, but it’ll come with time) as a result. If you want to see one path to adjusting those expectations, it only takes two steps.

First step to adjusting expectations – Let go of GW1. It’s a dead-end road heading in a direction that will not be taken any further by ArenaNet. You may have loved it, may have seen it as a sign that there is some hope for AAA online RPG games, but they are trying something different for GW2. They drove back to home, started off in a new direction, and GW2 is somewhere down that road instead. No matter how you feel about the difference, if you focus on all that GW2 isn’t that GW1 was, and all that GW1 wasn’t that GW2 is, you’ll never be satisfied here.

Second step – Realize that GW2 does not take itself seriously. This is not where you come for deep lore or a sense of doom you’re struggling to overcome. This isn’t where you play to get a sense of being in a typical fantasy novel/movie. GW2 is lighthearted. It’s 90’s Disney, not Game of Thrones (the book). The Dreamer will not feel out of place if you look at it this way. GW2 is intentionally goofy. It’s not a mistake. It is too pervasive in all aspects of the game from the writing to the content releases to some of the skins for weapons and armor to be happenstance. They’ve done an incredible job creating a very easy to digest setting where you can goof off with friends and strangers in various ways in a beautifully rendered fantasy world. Though less extreme, it’s like watching an episode of Jake and the Netherland Pirates with your child. It is excellent for what it is. If you approach one of those episodes and expect Pirates of the Caribbean, you’ll be sorely disappointed at no fault of the producers or incredible talent behind the show.

GW2 is a birthday cake, not an Italian cassata, by design. By being lighthearted and accessible, it makes it easier to work with the gem shop without affecting immersion because they have found a way to provide an experience that offers a different type of immersion unaffected by those transactions. They can provide rewards that appeal to a broader audience. Not everyone wants Twilight or Frostfang. Some people want Dreamer. They want Kudzu and Moot. You don’t have Dreamer in Westeros.

If you can approach GW2 like the theme park it is and just enjoy taking part in it, you’ll be far happier. I am, and while I realize I’ll have to look elsewhere to get the experience I was originally expecting, I’m glad to spend a little time in their new vision of Tyria while I wait. The game is fun, the graphics are great and it’s still one of the better MMO experiences you can find.

Yargesh.4965:

And if they had called it something else? They used the lore, they used the world they used many many things from GW. If they named it anything else you would be on here whinning ‘all they did was copy GW, why didn’t they just call it GW2?

I don’t know, this didn’t happen for World of Warcraft. No one complained that it wasn’t called Warcraft 4 despite sharing equal amounts of lore. I think they would have done themselves a favor by naming it something other than Guild Wars 2, but keeping Guild Wars in the title. It would have helped shape expectations.

Conncept.7638:

I have no evidence because I made no statement which required any, your post is their to read after all.

Where one man sees a specter bent on his destruction, another just sees the shadow of a tree. Evidence that it is a specter and not a shadow is important in making the distinction.

Conncept.7638:

And I’m not objective nor did I claim to be

At least we have that out of the way.

Conncept.7638:

But were I to present them, they would be presented with reason and evidence, instead of as hyperbolic expectations in the form of blanket statements, attempting to garner an emotional response because I do not have what it takes to back up my opinions.

That would be wise. It’s said that advice is most valuable when spent at home. At the least you should sample some of what you’re trying to give away for free here.

Conncept.7638:

In short, you’re angry

I’m not, I’m happier with the game than I ever have been. My purchase history which ArenaNet has on hand is testament to that.

Conncept.7638:

and you’re whining about what angers you

I’m not, I’m explaining why it doesn’t anger me and why getting angry about it doesn’t make much sense.

Conncept.7638:

and your pretending to take a higher stance is not fooling anyone.

No one claimed any higher stance. I only expressed how to remove unreasonable expectations so you could enjoy the game for what it is rather than be angry by how it isn’t what it doesn’t even want to be.

Vayne.8563:

Since you don’t take me seriously, I cease to care about what you say, and have no reason to reply to any argument you make. You can do all the eye rolling you want now, for all I care.

I somehow have an inkling that this won’t stop you from seeing any criticism lodged at the game as a bat signal in the sky to which you much ride to the rescue, replying to any and every comment made despite this bold proclamation.

If launching the game caused the flux, you would write how while it’s inconvenient, it’s helped you appreciate outhouses all the more.

Antares.2586:

I really hope GW2 authors and writers don’t want to continue the disney-like entertainment in the future.

The game needs more depth and more soul.

It still have the potential to achieve that.

A hammer does not need a better tightening mechanism. A wrench does not need a sturdier head for driving nails.

The point of the thread is to get us to stop looking for more of what it isn’t and doesn’t want to be. The work required to bring GW2 into more “serious” territory would be monumental. It would require overhauls of entire dialog trees. New voiceovers. Removal of some content, some of it permanently removed. Reworked rewards…

Those things aren’t going to happen. It’s not even that they’re a lot of work that will prevent them from happening, it’s that they aren’t representative of the game they want to make. Too many of us (I include myself in this camp) are judging it in a competition for which it hasn’t even entered and has no interest in entering.

Conncept.7638:

This sounds like…

Thinly veiled whining, unsupported opinions, and a massive amount of misleading hyperbole.

Move on.

As opposed to your Spock like objectivity, lengthy train of evidence and just the facts Ma’am reply.

Vayne.8563:

I spent a lot of time in Guild Wars 1 but I’ve also spent a lot of time in other MMOs, and let me tell you, Anet innovated HUGELY in Guild Wars 2.

Where? Point to the major innovations. No trinity? Old as dirt and possibly hasn’t been good for the game (I’d argue it’s the core issue that has resulted in the zerk or go home group optimization). The trinity was the innovation over the old systems present in standard D&D ruleset games. MMOs created them, GW2 just walked back from it. You had characters that could heal, or were stronger defensively, but no trinity, just as with GW2.

Dynamic Events had been done, nearly identical implementations, by previous MMOs.

The innovations that remain are small things like Guild Missions.

I’ve played many other MMOs, some of them for years. Aion, Lineage 2, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, SWTOR etc. etc., normally either all classes at max level for each or at minimum a couple for the more grindy games. It’s not that I just don’t have the breadth of insight that you do, it’s that I don’t find flattery for the sake of flattery useful. There were flaws in GW1, but they deserved all the praise and success they earned for what they did right. They deserve the same for GW2, but it’s not in the department of innovation. It’s more cookie-cutter MMO than GW1 by a long shot. It fits just perfectly alongside every other MMO on the market, GW1 still stands out like a sore (but amazing) thumb.

Vayne.8563:

Saying you can’t take someone seriously because their opinion differs from yours doesn’t strengthen your arguments. It just makes you look like a Guild Wars 1 fan boy, in the same way I look like a Guild Wars 2 fan boy.

I say I can’t take you seriously not because you disagree, but because the statements you made are eye-roll worthy.

You don’t play GW2 just like you played GW1. No one does. They can’t. They’re not the same game and have almost no gameplay mechanics in common. You can’t look at the list of things that are unique about GW1 and the things that are unique about GW2 and say they’ve innovated equally.

Yes, I loved GW1. I also loved a majority of WoW’s existence. I played nearly as many hours of Diablo 2 as I did either. Team Fortress 2 I probably have a couple of thousand hours in. I’m a fan of amazing games. GW2 is another amazing game. My point is that it’s a different game. It’s not GW1 with a fresh coat of paint and quality of life improvements. It’s not GW1 for the modern world.

Vayne.8563:

….Anet shakes things up. It’s what they do. They did it again. It would be a bit hypocritical to expect a company that innovated so much in their first game to not to the same in their second.

You’re difficult to take seriously after a post like that. Really. Guild Wars 2 is a very good game, but it is impossible to say that it innovates at the same level as GW1 did for its time. GW2 improves, it polishes, but it has little innovation. Nearly every key feature has been done elsewhere, either Warhammer Online and Rift with dynamic events or nearly every Facebook game since 2008 for two week content cycles. Guild Wars 1 stands out so much people argue about whether or not it’s even an MMO. Guild Wars 2? No question. It’s an MMO and does all the usual MMO things.

That and saying you play GW2 just like GW1… I mean… sigh

No, no you don’t. You don’t not because you lack some talent to do so, but because the gameplay mechanics are apples and oranges. Outside of the names of the ability, what do the two combat systems possibly have in common that lets you play them in a way that is any related than it would be for any other MMO with similarly themed abilities?

You are not doing ArenaNet or Guild Wars as a franchise favors by praising everything good or bad about the game. The only thing as useless as saying “this game sucks and they suck” is “this game is amazing and everything about it is amazing and they are amazing”.