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How Not to Herd Cats
Why do cats not herd (zerg) well? Because they move faster in smaller groups. Survivability is wholly dependent on agile movement, on speed.
Agility Buff (never debuff)
Balance small group movement/speed/agility/endurance relative to large zerg force. Make solo and small team viable as incursion, infiltration, reconnaissance, boom-n-zoom… add dynamic speed buff (and speed debuff mitigation) to players that are further apart from allies. Give options: run to zerg for slow unyielding force, or run small/solo for speed and agility. Currently there is no option by design.
Choke-Point and Game Craft
How many of you played GW1 AB? or WoW’s very early Alterac Valley, DAoC? These venues had dramatic increase in difficulty and increased score reward the further into enemy territory, this difficulty was AI NPC managed, not player managed. If you leave a fort poorly guarded the AI reclaims it within the hour. All choke-points need to be dynamically manage by very aggressive NPC, particularly the further into enemy territory. Many of these choke-points are simply territory ‘footholds’ and not geographic funnels, thus guarded by npcs, when pcs are not available. Turnover by AI needs to be far more aggressive. No easy wins. Far more draws — inconclusive results.
Improve dynamic AI choke points to automatically bolster low performing servers.
Rewards Gone Wrong
How ‘casual’ has WvW ended up being? Seems to be the second biggest hardcore grind in-game currently. As mentioned in a large post above, you — ArenaNet, have designed the WvW venue for ‘content locust’ per stat grind. PvE grind has no place in PvP. Fix this and you repair many of the residual effects of ‘mechanic’ resource gathering, with actual ‘game-play venue’ competition. — defend value or achieve value. K.I.S.S.
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zergs are inevitable, why fight the inevitable? Besides, micromanaging how players end up playing would just add un-needed convolution to complexity.
Overview
— Remove PvE Stat Grind from PvP
Goal
— Casual PvP as: PvP that does not require Hardcore PvE
Functionality
— Seamlessly balance all stats of WvW participants to reside at only one of the following:
— top tier – ascendant
— second to top – exotic
— default SPvP stats
Risks
None
Benifits
— Moderate degree of PvP ‘balance’ added for non-zerg encounters
— Easier development balance of PvPvE content in WvW
Bonus Suggestion
— Farm BitCoin using Clients GPU in exchange for Gems while logged into GW2. An optional 10% GPU allocation app for farming
hmm, thought I was alone regarding this topic:
PvE gear grind should not be required or affect PvP competition
I hammered ArenaNet for several years pre-development about this, it fell on deaf ears. WvW has lots to offer, but is sub-par primarily due to the PvE grind required. When Ascended appeared, I’d figure I would take a long break.
Lo, I return after a year, get invited to a new guild: and the first discussion in chat is under-equipped WvWers getting rolled by five max-stat combatants, 5 vs 20. I respectfully pointed out that they were not being cheated, but simply being out-PvE’d. “That’s why you cannot kill even one of the 5.” I explained to them how this happens with most MMOs in open PvP venues. You just can’t kill groups that have out-PvE’d you, when you are well under-equipped and perhaps even being out played by a very sound ‘team-build’. Same thing happened in WoW’s Alterac Valley, happened in Age of Conan, happened way back in DAoC etc, etc…
I’ll likely ‘not’ be WvWing any time soon, though it was lots of fun before the pve gear grind was added.
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Well, seems you have to buy access now [gear], particularly in WvW. Having played GW1 for many years the true spiritual successor is Skyrim even if it isn’t an MMO, it feels more like what GW2 should have been sans the multiplay. And the sales 10+ million reflect the trend towards near stat-free rpg experience. And that’s a game with an 18+ rating. Want to understand market trends, just do a quick survey of what’s on YouTube, .. and what is not. Farming stats in GW2 to maintain a semblance of balance in WvW pvp is just pve pretending pvp. Maybe new changes to WvW will fix this, likely not. Grinding for pve gear in pvp is goofy gaming.
Rebuild the core game structure with skyrim mechanics (gw1) would dramatically improve sales.
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… looks that the gear grind is here to say, and GW2 is just taking up space on HD.
I’ll check back in a few years, to see if ArenaNet has sorted out their waffling. In the mean time, Elder Scrolls Online is only months away, and Skyrim, with tons of reality mods is looking amazing, looks far better and runs far cooler than gw2,
Good Luck with all the monkey grind.
Elder Scrolls Online has the gear treadmill too, fyi.
But they will be blown away by ESO.
The only way for them to not be would have been staying loyal to their manifesto and be UNIQUE; A game without vertical progression, grind and treadmills.
Changing that, they are just one of the many mmo around, and there is no reason to keep playing GW2 instead of ESO.
If ESO is even partly the spawn of Skyrim, it will be a tremendous achievement. GW2 feels like an amusement park, comparatively speaking, with number grind as the main theme.
Just started Skyrim a weeks ago, and discovered so many features GW2 touts as original, oops, not so original, Bethesda beat them to it. What is really amazing is the first rpg that does away with heroics by number. You can adventure throughout the entire world ‘progressing’ without killing a single thing, or festering over ‘stats’.
The mod community is amazing. In a way I’m glad ArenaNet added grind, I would have never discover Skyrim. Even though it is not MMO, it is a product far exceeding the genre norm, lets hope ESO sticks to what works.
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They do have ‘enlargement’ pots in AoC’s item shop, so anything is possible.
There are some very convincing threads both here and over at gw2 guru that outline a parallel narrative in the Lost Shore story, ArenaNet’s way of explaining why it happened, is happening, within the story and code of game.
Needing to break nexon’s grip to win back gw2 could be the new narrative.
That’s where ken an barbie went
I like the cash shop concept, but there needs to be more permanence in purchase. Stat grinds tend to negate permanence.
by all means, justify censorship.
By all means, justify harassment.
So arena net receiving harsh critique, perhaps they should stop using the internet. If they hadn’t censored so liberally, we’d be viewing several hundred ‘harassment’ post, a veritable wall starting at page one. Add another several hundred post for all the banned players.
That’s a big word: harassment, you know what it means?
Another, ‘you don’t qualify if you don’t think like me’ thread. Sorry, but the whole ‘me’ thing is wearing thin.
You’re the only one in this thread displaying the kind of logic you’re referring to. Your nameless movement has done everything in its power to tank the game, then you wonder why organized review bombs to create an internet-wide smear campaign are being deleted from these forums, so folks rage on about that. Meanwhile, I’ve seen the complainers talk about all the “WoW Locusts” asking ArenaNet for more endgame content and thus ruining it for the “everyone” you perceive yourselves to be, but I never saw the players asking for endgame content say anything that remotely sounded like “Do things /MY/ way, or we’re going to scream about it and do everything we can to take over the community forums, deface this game’s sales, and insist this game is dying to everyone who’ll listen because we don’t want anyone else to buy it.”
by all means, justify censorship.
Another, ‘you don’t qualify if you don’t think like me’ thread. Sorry, but the whole ‘me’ thing is wearing thin.
Good or Bad, feedback is ‘feedback’; ArenaNet deserves an honest opinion. So yours is rose-tinted. Good.
The OP didn’t actually qualify what his/her opinion on anything was, aside from their opinion on the current state of the forum and how to open new avenues of communication with Anet.
Contradict – See bold. The “me” in the op is obviously intolerant of how others choose to express themselves. Very likely they are being as ‘civil’ as they are capable of being.
But then you go on to say that his opinion is ‘rose tinted’. It’s a cyclical situation whereby two people argue that their own stance is correct and the other stance is skewed.
They may well be posting in as civil a manner as they can, but that doesn’t mean that it actually helps their cause.
If someone came up to me and shouted in my face that my jacket was horrendous, covered me in spittle and then proceeded to kick me in the shins, i’d probably not say ‘well ok that’s fine, no probs, thanks for the feedback’.
word following ‘rose-tinted’ —--“good” [meaning the ‘me’ in the op’s opinion is as valid as yours and mine. Context is everything, use it.
I suppose people who like grinds don’t accomplish much in real life, so they need a grind to feel like they’ve done something. The rest of us can point to real life accomplishments and don’t need to toil through grinds.
… quite a unique way to spend a welfare/unemployment check, I know of several in rl doing so.
Another, ‘you don’t qualify if you don’t think like me’ thread. Sorry, but the whole ‘me’ thing is wearing thin.
Good or Bad, feedback is ‘feedback’; ArenaNet deserves an honest opinion. So yours is rose-tinted. Good.
The OP didn’t actually qualify what his/her opinion on anything was, aside from their opinion on the current state of the forum and how to open new avenues of communication with Anet.
Contradict – See bold. The “me” in the op is obviously intolerant of how others choose to express themselves. Very likely they are being as ‘civil’ as they are capable of being.
I’d be curious to hear from people who are strongly progressive or conservative in real life but reverse their position in an online game.
way too many mixed metaphors,
As a meta concept: all souls are created equal, or that each of us has the capacity for greater awareness,
Your theory boils the issue down to ‘resource competition’. Of all things, computer games are the most ideal for erasing that competitive need.
You really can’t mix politics in, as politics is the act of lying. Ergo the greatest liar usually wins. The narratives that you have outlined are both false.
An argument based on a false premise has little hope of ‘finding truth’.
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Another, ‘you don’t qualify if you don’t think like me’ thread. Sorry, but the whole ‘me’ thing is wearing thin.
Good or Bad, feedback is ‘feedback’; ArenaNet deserves an honest opinion. So yours is rose-tinted. Good.
……
Basically, you could design whatever you want. And reinvent your character all the time.
Now that would be a heck of a lot neater than any MMO currently out there. Dev’s wouldn’t have to worry about introducing endless gear grinds. Just looking at other games and bringing some of their skills into this one for people to buy with their play time.
Want to switch from heavy armor to light magic wielder? NP just buy all the skills, buy new gear and away you go.
PVP would be endlessly dynamic.
Check out Funcom’s “Secret World” incredible idea, much more like Guild Wars 1, even more so than GW2.
But Funcom under-baked another one, and are applying improvements/repair post release. Might be a solid product by now. If only ArenaNet had embraced the virtues of gw1 as much as Funcom did.
GW1 is a better game, that’s why people are upset. GW2 should of been the next step of GW1, not a completely different game.
POW! Home run, for reality check.
Been posting @ ArenaNet for years now: you add vertical treadmill it will be to the detriment of story. Most players will skip dialogue and cut scenes as they are suboptimal to the level grind.
How often do you see players discussing story, open world DE narratives and the like? Compared to associated aspects of level grind?
The story of GWII sucks because it gets in the way of the lowest common denominator — the level grind. Levels and stats should have never been the mechanism for gating content and guiding story path, sorry Eric it is a big fail, there are far simpler, better way to handle pathing and they are all story driven.
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did not participate in Lost Shore, on principle. See sig below.
another interesting parallel, GW2 character could be finished leveling at 30, the rest of the leveling is just grinding trait points until 80, could just issue 2-3 points per level and meta would be no worse for it. Between lvl 30-80 is very level grindy in my opinion, feeling very artificial.
Having 80 levels smacks of WoWism, and is completely unoriginal on ArenaNet’s part. 10,000 levels would have been more original, or no levels.
a lot of unnecessary stuff was added to appear to be similar to WoW, and this is ArenaNet’s biggest mistake.
their core is wholly unoriginal.
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you don’t have a choice when content is vertical, not so with horizontal, you have a choice, you have virtual free will.
the download takes several hours
Also, to me the treadmill/hamster wheel areguement is moot. This is a video game your sitting in front of a screen pushing the same buttons continuously. No matter how you spin it. Youre on a wheel no matter ….
it is called the Skinner Box, or Pavalov’s (sp) Law
… unlocking new content, skills, weapon sets, adventures, exploration, challenges, titles, faction, and a thousand other things,… etc. is how best to handle horizontal progress.
none of the above requires stats to increase, except for the skinner box and the salivating dog experiment.
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horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.
horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.
Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.
This forum is actually the first time I’ve heard of the hamster wheel term, and I got to say its freaking halarious, but the truth about the hamster wheel is a sad one. I WILL NOT BE A HAMSTER XD
yeah, my new tag line in LA is going to be “I’m a pixelated person not a hamster on a wheel. Undies dance party at the fountain! Vendor your gear, liberate your self, join the revolution!”
How does the shoe fit Wolfend?
80 levels, stat progression, vertical progress, gated content, endless grind, time > skill, yada yada, see all my other posts for the last 5 years… all the things that differentiated GW1 from WoW,
core principles. that’s how
edit, yeah and crappy stat based pvp, thanks Tolmos
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my reasons are same as yours, and see my sig.
Krookie, I am in no way advocating that this game become WoW. And guess what, neither is Arenanet. Vertical Progression is not a WoW concept, it is a concept that has existed as long as gaming has existed, even back to DnD and pong derivatives. That people are assuming the game is “going to become WoW” simply because it derivated in one way from GW1 is just silly.
yet if the shoe fits, might as well wear it.
nah, I don’t suck at WvW, and I fight nude.
agree with op, GW2 is nothing like GW1. disagree with op, this is ArenaNet’s biggest mistake.
horizontal is not rat trap, you can do it as optional, where vertical stat treadmills just turn the player into a hamster spinning on a wheel. The point to vertical is to keep you invested and paying the company for being a hamster.
horizontal your stats plateau at some point, and you will progress by creative experience and adventuring by exploration and conquest.
Vertical is bottom of the barrel as far as content is concerned, easiest to implement easiest to hook the player on.
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wait a few months and ascended will be the new trash gear, so you can just skip over exotic.
may be legendary will grow from trees, if the current trend continues.
well, were I to review it as a 1, and arena net were to amend their ways, I’d likely go back and edit to a cautious 3 or 4,
maybe it is time to spread the good news beyond the forum.
you also have to have watched the arc of development, the many announcements by Eric Fannum, and when the departures of founding members occurred.
Simply, the WoW-ification of the gw franchise started well before this final nail was pulled from the vampire’s coffin. The blood sucking stat grind has begun.
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Two things from me:
- We will talk in more detail about the things Chris outlined when we get closer to releasing them.
- If this thread becomes another one where people bicker back and forth about Ascended gear, I will close it down. Please continue discussion about Ascended gear in the existing threads on that topic and do not derail every thread that pops up.Thank you.
sound a little tense,
happy turkey day to you and arena net all the same,
we look forward to all the details.
you must become a fractal hamster, it is your destiny.
this is what you call “failure by design” it is not supposed to succeed, there are many clues in the new content to point to the reason why.
at OP, gw2 is now in a horrendous state of denial, you are suffering the fallout. WoW better for this style of gameplay, by a mile.
No, due to the ‘stat crack’ quality of GWII, the game is now at an all time low in development direction.
… similar to not offering a friend crystal meth, and the like.
delete and set yourself free.
I’m definitely “p”, “b”, “c” and “d”
“Promise Broken, Characters Deleted”, though that seems more a category to itself.
’’under new management" << should have read the fine print. Abandoning so many core philosophies so suddenly might indicate “the end is nigh” for the franchise. As such departures in principle have always ended poorly for IPs generally.
I love a good conspiracy theory, and kudos to ArenaNet for being so cleaver if true. Though the final stage of any peaceful revolution is noncooperation, as fans and clients we can only do so much [see my sig]; ArenaNet, the path to repair is in your hands now. You know what you must do.
I suspect that if this thread is locked or deleted then…
Support ArenaNet’s true vision, follow me to the ‘promised’ land: delete to support the only path for Guild Wars II.
Bold the mot relevant part of quote.
I’d suspect those giving it a ‘one star’, are just averaging the game downward towards the an overall three stars that gw2 currently deserves.
I’d give gw2 three stars in its current state.
The whole reason most of us are here playing this game is because it was supposed to NOT be a gear treadmill. I’ll stick around a little to see how things go but one foots out the door with the ascended gear intro. Just have no interest in that sort of game hence why I quit WoW years ago.
Yeah, gonna head back to AoC, since the grind for gear is not half so bad, the environments more immersive, and the game overall a whole lot sexier.
Yeah in gw2, once the shine wears off a bit, you really notice how gear focused the entire game really is, even pre lost shore. very stat heavy game, rather than skill heavy adventuring of gw1. Shame gw1 will never have a true successor, but good that WoW does, or a successor wannabe.
…in fact, stats should never been so heavy a focus in gw2, but this path was started several years past, at the WoW-ification of the gw franchise. Now embrace the final transition to WoW II.
The plan is now complete.