Guild Wars 2

This game doesn’t prescribe to that mindset. They focus on ‘action combat" instead of “strategic combat”. Strategic games pretty much give all melee classes snares, sometimes spammable snares, realizing that without it there’s endless kiting. Arenanet wants endless kiting and dodging for this game, so they can’t go that route.

Defense against greifers is Arenanet’s design team’s problem, mostly.

The current supply system is horrible, but when I said this in map chat I got responses about how it was “skill” and that the server with the most people who don’t understand or intentionally screw over supply moves is somehow inferior and deserves to lose.

So I guess first thing is the playerbase needs to understand good game design and what is acceptable and put pressure on the devs to fix the supply system mess.

I don’t think Guardians are overpowered…and imagine what the game would be like without support Guardians. It’s already bad enough that they are the pretty much the only class capable of putting out solid support/heals in large-scale combat….

Warrior CC is overpowered probably, but again…where are we without it?

Lack of a triad has just led to ‘everybody is DPS’…. the few Elementalists and Guardians trying to run support and the CC Warriors are possibly the only thing keeping WvW combat from becoming a DPS-button-mash-off.

Gric.3851:

Zosk.5609:

There is no “zerg” problem. These “zergs” are what most people come to WvW for in the first place…. if they wanted reliable 5v5 or 8v8 or smaller they could join sPvP.

There is a problem that fights over 5 people start to get uninteresting sometimes, but that’s because the combat and classes are designed for 5v5 and there’s nothing to be done about that in the immediate future.

There’s a problem that stuff falls much faster in siege than people can meaningfully respond to it. That’s because of things ArenaNet could fix if you badgered them enough, I guess. Hookpoints for rams, trebs, and golems to limit the number you can use against a structure. Remove superior siege completely? Nerf WvW abilities that increase damage against walls and doors? Probably other stuff….

Perhaps Zerg “problem” is a poor choice of words, but wouldn’t you say the scenario OP describes could alleviate the problem you describe? The one about “anything greater than 5v5 eventually becomes boring”

Keep in mind Zerging would not be eliminated as long as there are people who want to Zerg. Rather the optimal strategic ratio would shift from one Large Zerg and a few Havoc Groups, to something like two moderate zergs and five havoc groups.

Also regular sPvP would not be a legitimate substitute to OP’s scenario because those matches have too much structure.

WvW can offer spontaneity that sPvP cannot provide. Should OP’s suggestion come to light, a 5 man Havoc group may have a typical encounter similar to something in sPvP…..or they could encounter a 6 man group or a 3 man group. This could happen out in the field on their way to attack a tower, or they could already be attacking the tower, or maybe they are defending the tower.

This type of thing may occasionally happen now. But the current system makes it a rarity rather then the norm (and the norm it should be). And one aspect that is definitely not happening now is that while these two small squads are facing off there are several others like them interacting with each other around the map.

No, ‘zerg’ is a meaningless term that just means ‘their side had more than my side’ in pretty much all of these games.

If you want to meaningfully discuss problems with the game, you have to avoid using the word. It is the case that combat and classes designed for 5v5 and smaller fights is a huge problem…. but the answer isn’t to make WvW about 5v5 or smaller fights. What is the point? And how could you even do it? (You can’t, honestly, even if they doubled the number of maps).

I don’t know that there’s any answer when developers and designers seem set on being a MOBA-style MMO game and an e-sport….. but I do know that throwing around fuzzy terms like ‘zerg’ is pointless….

Splitting every ability and aspect of the game into three pieces seems like a non-starter to me.

I’m not a fan of rally, and I’m not a fan of all the downed getaway and movement abilities, but we might be stuck with them….. it’s pretty much all-or-nothing as I don’t think they’re going to split them PvE and WvW.

(And splitting is a horrible idea, anyway)

Zerg is just a word for them having more people than you in a fight.

Until people stop whining about zergs and start considering what is really wrong, we get nowhere.

Wait, we probably get nowhere anyway….because who is going to listen?

(For example, the fact doors on structures go down so fast and nobody wants to upgrade are faults of the siege system and the upgrade system…nothing to do with ‘zergs’…whatever that means.)

There is no “zerg” problem. These “zergs” are what most people come to WvW for in the first place…. if they wanted reliable 5v5 or 8v8 or smaller they could join sPvP.

There is a problem that fights over 5 people start to get uninteresting sometimes, but that’s because the combat and classes are designed for 5v5 and there’s nothing to be done about that in the immediate future.

There’s a problem that stuff falls much faster in siege than people can meaningfully respond to it. That’s because of things ArenaNet could fix if you badgered them enough, I guess. Hookpoints for rams, trebs, and golems to limit the number you can use against a structure. Remove superior siege completely? Nerf WvW abilities that increase damage against walls and doors? Probably other stuff….

Phlogus.2371:

Zosk concise and efficient comms are effective if people are familiar with you as a leader. Jocksys is right though in as much as a non guild member will do as they please and your directions can be short and clear but if they are not followed they mean little.

Nobody has to listen to anybody else in WvW, which is why commanders should not spend a lot of time talking. If your fancy moves require tons of instruction, they’re probably horrible anyway. I’m personally impressed by commanders who pick good targets, know how to drive (looping and porting back to keep people together), and keep things simple and fun…. none of which requires much jibber jabber.

Commanders barely need to talk at all, really. Most should just shut up.

You could never say a single word and be a pretty good commander. Good driving, responding to intel provided in map chat, choosing targets well, playing aggressively….all require few words.

You could probably be a pretty good commander with a handful of macros like “stack on me”, “push”, “pull”, “remember to supply”….honestly.

I’d really only change this, and that’s only based on the long cooldowns:

Shield 4 – Should be 5 seconds everywhere, should either deal more damage or interrupt (daze probably)

Shield 5 – Should explode at end of duration automagically (you can still prematurely explode it and move on). Could probably heal for more, seems to heal about as much as a dodge roll, which requires very little investment…..

These CC vs counter debates don’t have any real impact on large scale fighting because in two large groups, everybody has both of those things.

CC trains in that case are usually just used to slaughter the slower or stubborn members of the side that stupidly decided to run away.

I don’t think you get it entirely, OP.

This game is indeed an attempt to recreate MOBA style PvP with a standard MMO PvE play in the backdrop. That much is pretty clear from the developers insistence from the combat and class design, the focus on 5v5 on maps so active that those 5 people will never really be fighting together .

WvW is clearly not part of this equation. It is a tacked on game feature that doesn’t really mesh up that well with the PvE and PvP combat and design in this game. Why is it there? It’s something a significant portion of the MMO community wants and isn’t really being served since the Mythic games (DAOC and Warhammer) are no longer fully functional and most other games attempts at it have been mediocre.

I hear, however, World of Warcraft is taking a stab at this now…. but will it be good enough to lure these people to an almost 10 year old subscription game? Eh….probably not IMO.

The problem with getting out there and trying is that there’s little incentive. WvW in this game just isn’t as fun as similar experiences in past games, mostly because combat and classes are entirely designed for 5v5 and smaller fights…. It’s really no mystery to me that people are quick to leave when frustrated… cause a lot of the time WvW is kind of boring.

For example, look at the number of fights in this game that are cancelled because one side zergs like woah or because a handful of people are mashing arrowcart buttons…. or the amount of time people spend ganking camps and sentries because there’s not much else they feel they can accomplish. Yawn.

A large percentage of players out there already only care about flips, (because the scoreboard is meaningless) and I have no idea why you think the devs would want or need to encourage it further instead of fixing the scoring system.

Really, I don’t get it. FYI there’s already a lot of roaming and ganking of sentries and camps for the points, perhaps you are just playing on a server that’s overcrowded?

The scoring system could use some serious work to make it more interesting, fair, and encourage fights and minimize the discouragement of losing teams who feel they have zero chance of making any further impact on it.

HOWEVER, with no scoring system and no orbs and no sense of WvW being the ‘endgame’ in this game…. removing it would just mean 95%+ of the players are swapping structures for karma, loot and achievements. I think you’d better promote fixing it, not removing it.

There’s so much in this game that we’d be better off if they just removed it.

Superior Siege is probably at the top of that list for WvW (next is probably Confusion and Retailiation or the supply storehouse in keeps and towers that is a constant source of drama)

Portal should still be removed from this game. It’s still disappointing that they seem totally unwilling to do it, despite it breaking the flow of WvW and allowing skipping of Jumping Puzzle content. I wonder what it would actually take for them to do it?

1) Remove all these confusion, retaliation, and torment barbs from the game as they do not make sense given the design.

Other games were not only more careful with these effects damage wise, they also had more practical options of alternative things you could do… like heal or buff if you can’t attack, or stand still and get healed by an ally if you couldn’t move.

These types of effects are not doing this game any favors….

I agree with the above.

If you’re constantly focusing on siege and running supply and worrying about whether siege is refreshed you’re not only doing yourself a disservice…most everybody else is ignoring you or annoyed you aren’t out there fighting (especially if they have been paired up against people who clearly have more players).

BTW, none of those things you call “faults” are really faults with your server. They are faults with this game and it’s design….another reason people should take focus on the things you have control over…. avoid running away constantly or a siege mentality and try to get out there and have fun fighting where you can.

Xae Isareth.1364:

The only positive thing I can see coming from this is maybe it’’ll proc AH more than it did.

It’s a net positive if you’re ‘stacking’ for buffs Which I hope is unintended, because the very idea of stacking is part of what’s wrong with WvW in this game…

It’s a positive for the overall game and game design…because having buffs that break the rules and aren’t consistent is….well lame.

Other than that, it’s pretty much a nerf for the main use of speed boost while running for Guardians. Even though many people in WvW probably have big symbols…let’s face it you’re not going to get 2 ticks consistently.

I don’t think they are changing it because it’s overpowered in sPvP, therefore your request is kind of weird!

Everybody else needs less mobility, actually.

This game features the most running away of any PvP MMO I’ve played….most require you to avoid or commit a fight and once you are in you are usually in to the death (or a stalemate).

(And it’s not making the game more fun IMO…)

That was working as intended… it was a kludge fix to a loophole they didn’t think through when they made ground-based buffs that stack duration, IMO.

I don’t think they intended you to stand there and get 40 secs of speed, just like I don’t think they intend you to be able to run back and forth through a Mesmer speed buff to gain extra seconds….

(It would be nice if they admitted it, though? ) Then we can just move on to how to fix it….

I think it’s more fair to say that everything in the game is designed and attempted to be balanced based on small-scale fights… 5v5 max.

DAOC has/ had these things…that is the reason that this game has them!

I remember several events that had things popping up in the frontiers bringing extra people out, not to mention there were TWO major PvE+RvR dungeons (a whole expansion revolved around one of them).

Mostly popular, because there were no queues and no real overcrowding.

If you aren’t going to fix population itself, then I would say:

- Structures should automatically upgrade. (Also solves the constant and inane fighting about whether to take supply from structures) ‘Upgrade Supply’ should be generated each time a yak makes it but also there should be maybe X upgrade supply generated each tick that is split among all structures that side controls. This means people holding less will have it upgrade faster.

- Points for kills. A point for every stomp, bonus point if Outnumbered and another if you have bloodlust?

- The number of points in the potential pool for each tick – Add to it based on how many kills happened in the previous 15 minutes, also add to it based on the total points scored so far in the matchup. (This means that things are worth more points as the week goes along AND during periods of more activity)

This is a pretty good topic to cry about. I think the actions of giving out more WXP and allowing you to buy it indicates that even the devs know they messed up here.

And sadly, I think the motivation is PR and to avoid people calling it a grind. An upward curved system like every other game that does this would have been more alt-friendly AND allowed individual progression… but they were afraid because people would say it’s a “grind”. (Because of course, those abilities are so awesome you need them to compete…)

Letting towers fall so you can recapture them isn’t “PvE”… it is an appropriate response to the current state of WvW. You almost always get more ranks that way. You also usually get more points for your realm being on offense than defense, as the only time defense is both useful and fun is if you have the numbers and are in the area…and sitting around waiting for those cases to show up only works during prime WvW times.

(But that’s not what this thread is about….)

Answer: Dark Age of Camelot is clearly a huge influence on the design of WvW. It had these things….

(Anyway, I assume you’re complaining not that it exists but the queues it might create, even though I doubt it will).

Solo Queue for 10v10 (or 8v8). (Although not really a new mode, this could just replace the Solo 5v5 tournament and/or 8v8 servers).

It’s not really going anywhere. It’s kind of been a mess since day 1, but I don’t see them removing it.

Even changing it to have an upward curve, a limit of total # of ranks, or be account bound is a mess and may be off the table….we might just have to live with it?

kingcragus.6810:

So what about the fact that rank is not an indicator of skill, at all, and there is a chance that you on your high rank zergling 1 spamming toon will be taking the place of a more skilled player.

He’s already convinced he’s better than everybody else, so we need to move past that and discuss this horrible idea that the devs would never seriously consider implementing.

It’s sort of disappointing there’s been nothing, especially on Tequatl. We’re getting new dungeon paths but no response to the murder of one of the ‘big events’.

I suppose there could be a valid reason but it feels like content is being just being churned out every two weeks without any care afterwards.

I doubt there’s much significant difference between WvW population trends and overall population trends except on the top servers where people intentionally stacked.

I think it’s a psychological trick and mostly a waste of time, although I’m sure Arenanet already has some way of measuring this so possibly not a waste of significant amount of time.

Maybe they can reveal overall population score and WvW score and we can stop talking about this.

Who knows why you’d skip straight to punishing players when Arenanet hasn’t even nicely asked people to move from Gold to Bronze servers yet.

I mean forget incentives, they haven’t even asked or encouraged the behavior….

They should be picking select (or all) bronze league servers and giving free goody bags or gems to anybody willing to go…. also if they could travel back in time 6 months to do this that would be awesome!

The game would be better if there was no such thing as condition damage, and that conditions were just inverse of boons. (I guess that would mean there was 1 damage condition, poison perhaps, that is the inverse of regeneration).

Is it too late for that?

(Also you can just remove Retaliation and Confusion pairing since they basically do nothing but destroy fun and force people to stare at buff/condition bars… not to mention how Retal basically makes upping the AE cap super-tricky)

Think the game’s combat feel is pretty much set by fundamental design choices (like giving everybody dodges and lots of get-out-of-jail free cards) so if you want something more slow paced and strategic you’re SOL.

The logic that since conditions are overpowered that burst clearly is underpowered is worth a real chuckle…way to derail in such a humorous fashion guys!

We’ve said the whole thing about basing points based on actual activity before…. while it’s kind of a no-brainer (besides the effort to code it of course), it’s also the #2 problem right now.

If they can’t fix the #1 (overall population) and give good matchups, great ideas about how to fix off-hours advantages do not accomplish much.

When people ask me the strengths of this game, I tell them the storyline, the writing, the slick and modern interface and addictive loot-kitten style PvE (think Diablo).

I tell them the weaknesses: the attempt to bring MOBA style combat to an MMO has almost entirely failed to appeal to the fans of MMO PvP, and not brought in very many MOBA players as far as I can tell. While it can still be fun, there’s less overall strategy and tactics in this game then the PvP MMOs I’ve played (WOW, WAR, DAOC) and the MOBAs I’ve played (LoL).

I guess my point is, why would you want them to listen to a tiny majority who is happy with the current design when it appears most players are not. Also, they’d be better off if they just gave up the dream of being an e-sport and tried to be a good PvP MMO (since WAR failed, and all the other games are aging, they have no competition in this space).

(Which, BTW, is why a lot of people are here… WoW is ancient, WAR failed, other games like RIFT/Tera/Aion don’t seem to take PvP that seriously to me and are also showing age)

The community screwed up, but anet has missed many chances to try to help fix the problem.

Why no incentives to move to bronze league servers? How about free transfers now, or transfers that cost WvW badges? Maybe 250 Badges to transfer, but bronze servers get major bonuses (a copy of outnumbered buff that is always on and stacks? double karma/gold/XP from WvW events?) Bronze league is the one that should be getting more rewards for winning, as well.

Also, why on earth did they call the big servers the “gold” league….talk about bad PR. Reinforcing the silly notion that they are more “hardcore” or better or serious because they zerg harder….

It’s pretty much totally redundant. In exchange for a worse experience you get rankings which mean next to nothing…since solo 5v5 on a map designed for 10 people is just a bunch of ganking and running around and capturing points.

Not going to be a sale to anybody except people obsessed with leaderboards.

The Guild Wars 2 WvW community, creating drama out of nothing since 2012.

It’s just a tag and some abilities to help you lead groups that you buy for 100 gold… you don’t really get to tell anybody else what to do. If somebody is telling you to tag down or to follow them instead of asking politely and providing a reason, you will probably better off not listening to them anyway.

“I troll because I care”

Everything you need to know about this post was in the signature.

I was never sure why the solo tournament queue was 5v5, anyway.

We know these maps were not designed for 5v5, and when you join the solo queue you are not looking for a group vs group experience.

I guess it’s a vestige of the classes supposedly being “balanced” around 5v5 as a base point…. but there’s already a place for 5v5 AND the maps aren’t designed for it AND it is almost always one-sided when even 1 person doesn’t show up….

They made a huge error reinforcing the ignorant belief of the “community” that the biggest servers are somehow “better”.

They should be out there demonstrating that there’s more “skill” working with less numbers, more “skill” when you can actually move your troops between zones, and even though skill doesn’t currently matter much when it comes to the scoreboard — at least you won’t have to wait in queues!

But instead they called the biggest servers the “gold” league and reinforced the idea they are the place to be….

I’m kinda puzzled by the dev response to “why a 5th map when the first 4 aren’t filling up” question. I think this is a good opportunity to tell people they don’t get the design and explain it…in accordance with the new paradigm.

I mean, unless I’m missing the mark, this is a design borrowed from Dark Age of Camelot and the idea is you are supposed to have mobility and switch areas/zones to attack elsewhere if things aren’t going your way or the zerg is too big.

Hitting the caps is actually a bad thing! (And that’s just on principle…it’s also a bad thing because of the ability lag whenever all three teams come close to hitting the cap in one area)

This became about the warrior, but really it’s just a bad idea for balance to make classes permanently or near-permanently faster than others.

Fairness aside, what it promotes is ganking and running over fighting, and most people come to PvP to fight.

I think you all kind of gloss over that they probably made the least zerg-friendly thing they ever made in the game…and you’re still finding the zerging realm is keeping all the bloodlust.

To me, this says HORRIBLE MATCHUPS not a problem with borderlands bloodlust… but I guess we’ve given up on non-horrible matchups with the new seasons thing, right?

I think it’s important to note that it was not WXP that caused the problem it was the WvW abilities…

Allowing people to get hundreds of points worth of abilities, no matter how minor they might seem, without even an upward curve was a huge mistake.

It made it seem like a bad idea to play alts (how much of this is reality is debatable). Once that happened they have a problem and now they’re just throwing mad points at everybody as a solution. (A solution which doesn’t really fix the problem, of course…)

I think your experience is atypical or you are going to great lengths to make that happen.

Consider that it’s only going to get worse at this point, not better. Novelty wears off, waiting an hour or more in the zone to avoid overflow is not really worthwhile once you’ve done it a couple times. (You are likely to get more better loot just doing the easier world events).