Guild Wars 2

The Living World is becoming more and more of a player trap than a progression of the game.

And it isn’t even trying to disguise itself anymore.

Yes, there is some background story to what’s happening, and it’s all framed in the context of “gameplay”, but the gameness (this word was the best I could think of) of GW2 is increasingly becoming a pretense to capture players’ time, and less of being a game experience.

Look at the Crown Pavilion. A thinly veiled attempt at trapping players. It’s a tiny enclosed space (tiny relative to what Tyria could be), appearing out of nowhere, filled with all the behavioral tricks available.

The lower layer: a mind-numbing continuous farm for the zerg, with perfectly timed event spawn rates, such that the player will always be thinking “one more champion, one more champion”. Coupled with the new champion reward system, and the never-before-seen mob density, it’s a fantastic incentive to keep going. It’s a giant hamster wheel laid out horizontally. And it’s not even disguised as new open world content (like Southsun was). It’s not even disguised as a “natural” occurrence in the world (there’s no lore associated with the events, they just spawn like clockwork (watchwork ). It’s the Southsun instigator farm distilled.

The upper layer: challenging battles for the player who demands difficulty. Challenging for some, utterly frustrating for some. Again, a trap for players who enjoy a challenge, who are completionists, who want the Liandri minipet, or those who just want that ego boost. There is no dungeon here, no Aetherblade Retreat, no Molten Facility—no illusion of a game, no larger immersion. Just a series of disjointed encounters to challenge/frustrate you, and to make you sink repair, waypoint and gauntlet ticket costs into.

Now, I understand that a game has to capture the attention of players. But a game does that by being a game. ALL games use behavioral tricks to keep players occupied, but they make a game out of it.

I feel that with the Living World, content has become less of a game experience, and more of a stream of unapologetic behavioral manipulations, with very little game.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

axiology.5807:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Sure. I just didn’t think there was anything to really do after completing all your missions. Sure there was grinding for the 15k armor and that stuff, but unless you were a serious PvP’er, there was…well…just farming to do. I just didn’t understand the point of farming in the game other than to amass gold.

I see, so you didn’t enjoy playing around with builds and gear? Yeah that’s a preference thing, most of my points would be irrelevant for you then.

What gear? All you had to do was buy it? And what was the point of playing around with builds in PvE?

That counts as gear too.

And personally, as a personal preference (emphasized in fear of making what I say sound like law), I liked playing with different builds. One day I could go as a Minion Master, the other I could go with Spiteful Spirit, just to name two of the more widely-used ones. That, to me, was fun. So as I said, the points in my OP are not relevant to you if this isn’t what you enjoy.

No offense OP. but it is relevant to anybody who plays this game. If you do not want input from gw2 players, go to the gw1 forums.

Gee, you misunderstand me.

Of course I appreciate Shootsfoot’s point. I’m saying that I have my preferences, he has his. Which I understand and respect. And because he has different preferences, my opinions for replayability would not mean anything to him, because HIS kind of replayable differs from MY kind of replayable.

Ah okay, I think they way you wrote your OP and posts made it sound like you rebuffed differing opinions, it’s clearer now. But for my input, I see the replay ability is gw2 and still do, but its through dungeons and alts and different ways to approach dungeons with different professions. But that’s my opinion

Yes that is how I’m finding GW2 replayable now, through alts and different ways of doing the same stuff. Which is actually hindered by the prices of gear. It’s hard to gear alts fully and with different sets. Gear isn’t through-the-roof expensive, but they’re not exactly cheap to play around with either.

Shootsfoot.9276:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Sure. I just didn’t think there was anything to really do after completing all your missions. Sure there was grinding for the 15k armor and that stuff, but unless you were a serious PvP’er, there was…well…just farming to do. I just didn’t understand the point of farming in the game other than to amass gold.

I see, so you didn’t enjoy playing around with builds and gear? Yeah that’s a preference thing, most of my points would be irrelevant for you then.

What gear? All you had to do was buy it? And what was the point of playing around with builds in PvE?

That counts as gear too.

And personally, as a personal preference (emphasized in fear of making what I say sound like law), I liked playing with different builds. One day I could go as a Minion Master, the other I could go with Spiteful Spirit, just to name two of the more widely-used ones. That, to me, was fun. So as I said, the points in my OP are not relevant to you if this isn’t what you enjoy.

So, in other words, I shouldn’t have looked at a forum post and answered it with a counter opinion.

I’ll have to remember that.

Let me rephrase: my points in my OP are inapplicable to you. You have your preferences (which many share) and I have mine. Thank you for sharing the other preference, the other point of view which I neglected to acknowledge at first in my OP.

In other words, I like apples and you like oranges. My post about the virtues of apples is meaningless to you because you’re an orange person. But thank you for reminding us that that are people who enjoy oranges instead of apples, something I did not mention in my OP.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Sure. I just didn’t think there was anything to really do after completing all your missions. Sure there was grinding for the 15k armor and that stuff, but unless you were a serious PvP’er, there was…well…just farming to do. I just didn’t understand the point of farming in the game other than to amass gold.

I see, so you didn’t enjoy playing around with builds and gear? Yeah that’s a preference thing, most of my points would be irrelevant for you then.

What gear? All you had to do was buy it? And what was the point of playing around with builds in PvE?

That counts as gear too.

And personally, as a personal preference (emphasized in fear of making what I say sound like law), I liked playing with different builds. One day I could go as a Minion Master, the other I could go with Spiteful Spirit, just to name two of the more widely-used ones. That, to me, was fun. So as I said, the points in my OP are not relevant to you if this isn’t what you enjoy.

No offense OP. but it is relevant to anybody who plays this game. If you do not want input from gw2 players, go to the gw1 forums.

Gee, you misunderstand me.

Of course I appreciate Shootsfoot’s point. I’m saying that I have my preferences, he has his. Which I understand and respect. And because he has different preferences, my opinions for replayability would not mean anything to him, because HIS kind of replayable differs from MY kind of replayable.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

Suffice to say Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are very distinct games, sharing basically only the lore between them. Learn this, and take off those nostalgia goggles.

Yes, I agree, I acknowledged that in my concluding paragraph.

Keep in mind that in Guild Wars 1 “Different Builds for Different Situations” meant “One Good Build per Situation per Profession or you’re never finding a group”.

Perhaps for the difficult dungeons, but less so for cooperative missions. The build metagame did create other problems for gameplay and balance. But nonetheless those problems existed in an environment of highly accessible gear.

Shootsfoot.9276:

axiology.5807:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Sure. I just didn’t think there was anything to really do after completing all your missions. Sure there was grinding for the 15k armor and that stuff, but unless you were a serious PvP’er, there was…well…just farming to do. I just didn’t understand the point of farming in the game other than to amass gold.

I see, so you didn’t enjoy playing around with builds and gear? Yeah that’s a preference thing, most of my points would be irrelevant for you then.

What gear? All you had to do was buy it? And what was the point of playing around with builds in PvE?

That counts as gear too.

And personally, as a personal preference (emphasized in fear of making what I say sound like law), I liked playing with different builds. One day I could go as a Minion Master, the other I could go with Spiteful Spirit, just to name two of the more widely-used ones. That, to me, was fun. So as I said, the points in my OP are not relevant to you if this isn’t what you enjoy.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Sure. I just didn’t think there was anything to really do after completing all your missions. Sure there was grinding for the 15k armor and that stuff, but unless you were a serious PvP’er, there was…well…just farming to do. I just didn’t understand the point of farming in the game other than to amass gold.

I see, so you didn’t enjoy playing around with builds and gear? Yeah that’s a preference thing, most of my points would be irrelevant for you then.

This is my opinion on how GW1 was highly replayable without the need for “progression” and grind. Also why max-stat gear for cheap is better than expensive gear. TLDR: Read the headers in bold.

Collectible Card Game-Style Skills
Two professions, each with an average of a hundred skills. Although the metagame, with the best combination of skills, greatly limited the number of optimal builds, there was always room for flexibility and wacky builds. You could play around a lot with the skill bar, and this kept the game fresh and replayable.

Extreme Build Variants
Your secondary profession, your weapon choice, the attributes you invested in (usually specialized in two or three instead of spread out), the skills you chose—your gameplay had the potential to differ greatly from build to build. The Necromancer, for example, could specialize in minions, curses, direct blood damage or party-wide enchantments, just to name a few. Each of these builds felt extremely different, and within ONE primary profession you had a lot of replayability.

Flexibility to Re-Build, Re-Gear, Experiment
Instead of reducing the sense of progression, easily attainable gear actually made you invest more into each character and made things replayable. Today you might want to try a Hammer Warrior, tomorrow you might want to try an Axe Warrior. It’s cheap to go from one to the other, so you experiment. Max stat weapons, armors, runes, all the upgrade components are fairly affordable, so you can re-gear easily. Each time you change your gear, the gameplay changes, and you have the motivation to replay. GW2, on the other hand, has relatively higher-priced exotic gear, sigils and runes. The barrier to experiment is much higher.

Game-Changing Elite Skills
Elite skills were very often the heart of every skill bar. (Admittedly, they were also the heart of the metagame and a lot balance problems.) Elite skills changed the way you played completely. A Ranger bow skill that inflicted a long burning versus one that interrupts on a very short cooldown? Or how about a skill that increases the damage of each arrow significantly? Each elite skill (and there were many) changed everything about your gameplay.

Different Builds for Different Purposes
This is about the metagame. In the metagame, for maximum efficiency, your farming build differed totally from your missions build different totally from your exploration build. True, some were gimmicky, but they were different. And that kept your character and gameplay fresh through the different things you do.

The Synergy of Build and Gear Flexibility
So with the possibility of multiple builds (even with the metagame, there were still many viable builds), the use of different builds for different situations and activities, the ease of re-gearing and experimentation, and vastly different gameplay depending on build and gear, it all came together to keep things novel and replayable.

And that is how, in my opinion, GW1 was replayable without resorting to grind. There are very significant design differences between GW1 and GW2. Maybe this is why GW2 can’t do without having “progression”, because the game isn’t designed to be replay-sustainable with static gear tiers like GW1 was.

Edit: Of course, this all hinges on you enjoying trying out different builds and gears, in a way, assembling different “decks”. Perhaps a better title would be GW1: Replayable without Grind through Variability. Naturally, GW1 game design isn’t the answer that would fit everyone, but it’s a way cheap, static gear tiers worked.

Wonderfully written piece.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

A permanent stat cap is as important to us as ongoing stat progression is to many others; without it, there’s no reason to play the game and no significant enjoyment to be derived from it, regardless of what else might be in the game to do or enjoy.

That sums up my feelings and my sudden drop in interest in the game.

El Hefe.2814:

Logun.2349:

The question were not that hard, Do you like to PvP/WvW , Do you like jumping puzzles? …… and I’ll add one more, Do you like making your character as powerful as they can be?

i find parts of pve, spvp, and wvw fun. which i play depends on my mood. im not overly concerned with gear.

Well, some people ARE concerned with gear, not just because of personal gearing, but for the implications it has on the game as a whole. They care about the fundamental change ascended gear has brought to the game.

Why are you trying to convince these people that they should be as unconcerned as you are with regards to gear?

El Hefe.2814:

Xpiher.5209:

El Hefe.2814:

Xandax.1753:

Xpiher.5209:

El Hefe.2814:

xtorma.1283:

El Hefe.2814:

Fozzik.1742:

We’re TRYING to play the game for fun. ArenaNet is requiring a stat grind of ever-growing proportions in order to reach that fun.

it’s not required. if you don’t find it fun, don’t do it. i guarantee you will enjoy the game more.

Exactly my issue as well.
And it will spill into WvW as well making PvE needed for WvW.
If that’s the case, there was no reason for the stat increase.

the increase is to give those players a reward. they new gear isn’t easy to get. it requires dedication and skill. but it is also not necessary to complete other content.

Its not necessary YET. ANET said it will be in the future. Content gating has been introduced to GW2

still waiting for the required quote.

I already gave it to you.

El Hefe.2814:

phooka.4295:

xiv.7136:

Xpiher.5209:

There isn’t any YET. New content will require you to be geared in agony resistance to do it.

So you’re concerned about something that hasn’t happened, that hasn’t been announced and is clearly not going to happen?

Sigh.

When the new gear was announced, it was said that there would be a point beyond which you won’t be able to advance without it.

for the new dungeon right? if you want to do the new dungeon you can.

If its only limited to one dungeon then its not progression. They already said, as I’ve pointed out in countless threads, that they will be expanding on the agony system in future content updates.

Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later…

So it’s important for us to be able to add an expansion pack’s worth of progression and rewards to support that content[that content being agony system].

This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.

Eventually, you’ll be able to kit yourself out with a full set of Ascended gear and high end Infusions to help give you the edge in end game content.

We are also working on other reward and progression systems for the game that tie into current and new content and features.

That clear enough for you https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

once again. nowhere does it say the gear is required.

I think you are being pedantic in your arguments.

• Yes, you don’t require infused gear against Agony. You will die and you won’t complete the Fractals, but you don’t require it.

• On fun. Of course, you don’t require Ascended gear. You will be missing out on a stats increase in WvW, in PvE, you will find yourself dying again and again in Fractals when Agony sets in, but you don’t require it. Technically, in GW2, only a decent computer, electricity, and a copy of the game is required. Everything else is optional.

There are real concerns about gameplay, about the direction the game is headed towards. You can’t sweep them all under the carpet by saying that it’s not required.

Galen Grey.4709:

Yashimata.2986:

People who play WvW can’t just ignore the new tier. Other players WILL bring it in to the maps, and it WILL affect them negatively if their opponents have the upper hand in stats. Yeah they’ll “eventually” add ascended gear to WvW, but people might be fed up with losing a disproportionate amount of their battles by that point.

I also did the math on my back piece (which I upgraded from rare + exotic jewel to ascended) and it was a 22% increase in the relevant stats. Nothing was lost to magic find or other stats I wouldn’t use. One piece isn’t a huge deal (I gained ~7 toughness and 1% crit) but it adds up very quickly.

but sorry you cheated you jumped 2 tiers

forget the back item because currently there is no exotic back item, check it with an exotic ring -> ascended ring the jump is 7% not 22%
then check the jump from rare -> exotic, the jump is 12% so really this is just 1/2 a tier better!

But sorry your math is flawed.

If you compare the rings shown in this official blog post, you will see that one stat increases by 43%, and two stats increase by 8% each. That averages 20%. The ascended tier stats jump is about 1.5 times better according to your rare to exotic calculations.

The OP’s argument can be summed up thusly:

1. People are playing Fractals,

2. therefore ascended gear is okay.

Hmm, not convinced.

Ascended gear you say? Here’s the general recipe for ascended back items:

• 250 tier 6 fine crafting material
• 1 vial of condensed mist essence (drops randomly from Fractals)
• 50 globs of ectoplasm
• 24 skill points (either crystals or philosopher’s stones)

That’s for ONE item. Pre-infusion.

Other gear are not available through crafting/the mystic forge yet. But assuming they are the same cost, to have Full Ascended, that’ll be:

• 3000 tier 6 fine crafting material
• 12 vials of condensed mist essence
• 600 globs of ectoplasm
• 288 skill points

Again, this is before any infusion.

I’m all for a server without ascended gear. They don’t even have to remove the gear if it’s too much trouble, just put an exotic-level cap across everything.

Luculus.9860:

I’ve seen it time and time again. Sometimes a game really deserves it (SWTOR anyone?) but quite often these types of posts are not from people who play, they’re from people who just hate.

Oh I’m sure, as per your argument, SWTOR players are enjoying that game while haters whine on the forums (and forums of other games).

Mr Crazy Moose.5760:

After yesterday’s event I’ve developer a sudden aversion to bosses with grossly overinflated healthbars to compensate for any real difficulty to them. It’s put me off 90% of the level 80 content.

Maybe it was the masses of champion Karka that did it.

Psh, any aversion can be cured with the chance of Dusk dropping.

Roven Leafsong.8917:

axiology.5807:

Used to be intrinsically motivated to play the game (playing game for the enjoyment of game itself), now extrinsically motivated to play the game (playing game to get loot). Extrinsic motivation doesn’t last, requires continuous supply of carrots.

That’s quite interesting.

If you didn’t need any reward but the enjoyment of gameplay before, and the gameplay hasn’t changed, why does the extra reward matter now? Is it instead your perceptions of the same gameplay or the game itself that have changed, and if so, did they change before or after the patch was released?

Is it possible you were also extrinsically motivated before, which is why changes to ‘maximum’ stats, gear and power levels matter at all?

It is very possibly a matter of perception. However, I don’t think I was extrinsically motivated. Items simply did not exist as an issue in my mind previously—they were so accessible, you could get them by doing whatever you wanted. I didn’t have to consciously think about them because there were no obstacles to acquiring them. Items were not on my mind (if that makes sense).

Now, I perceive them to be something that I have to go out of the way to get, and I just want to get them as quickly as possible so that I can move on. The motivation shifted from being an intangible enjoyment of the game to a specific, tedious, but short-term goal. I hope this makes sense.

Chuo, Crater, you two are too kind!

Sigh, how I wish I was wrong about the Ascended items, how I wish I was too distracted with the game. Instead I just feel strangely reluctant to log in.

I used to play this game for fun.

I play the dungeons for fun. The rewards are great, but it’s not my only motivation to play them. I have thousands of dungeon tokens in my bank now (not exaggerating at all). I don’t find dungeons a chore, I enjoy them, so I keep doing them.

I made time for the Halloween one-time event, all I got was a cut-scene, and it was worth it. I felt good about the whole thing because that was what one-time events should be—a treat for those who came for it, but no loss for those who couldn’t.

I made time for the first two Lost Shores events too, and they were great too. A cut-scene, dynamic events, and typical dynamic event awards. A little painful because of the lag, but it felt good because, again, it was a treat for those who came, but it was okay for those who couldn’t.

Dungeons and events used to be fun. I did/attended them because I enjoyed the experience. I was intrinsically motivated to do them. (Intrinsic motivation: “refers to motivation that is driven by an interest or enjoyment in the task itself” – Wikipedia.) And I would have continued to do them for a long time, because there isn’t an end-goal or a limit to fun.

Now, I do the Fractals for the loot, and I endured the final Lost Shores event for the loot.

The Fractals would have been fun by themselves. But my focus shifted to acquiring Ascended gear (as much as I am against them) instead of the experience of the dungeons themselves.

I endured the tedium of the Lost Shores finale, because there was a chance of getting great loot. I wanted to get it over and done with, and get to the final chest as soon as possible.

All of a sudden, my motivation for the game has became extrinsic (“refers to the performance of an activity in order to attain an outcome” – Wikipedia). I do the dungeons and event for the goal of loot.

This change in motivation has eroded the intrinsic enjoyment I was getting out of the game. And unlike intrinsic motivation, which keeps one going, extrinsic motivation ends with the attainment of the outcome. That is why, in many games, there has to be a continuous supply of new and more powerful item tiers—to keep players extrinsically motivated.

I can already feel the shift in what motivates me to play the game. The last three days have cast a shadow over how I feel about the game, not only about dungeons and events, but over the whole game. I don’t care much for items, and I don’t think this new extrinsic motivation can hold my attention for long.

TLDR: Used to be intrinsically motivated to play the game (playing game for the enjoyment of game itself), now extrinsically motivated to play the game (playing game to get loot). Extrinsic motivation doesn’t last, requires continuous supply of carrots.

Arius.7031:

Edit: Wait, didn’t they say the rewarding scaled the further/harder it got? Doesn’t that mean that we’ll get more the further we get in?

I’m not sure how the reward scaling would work, but to get deeper into the Fractals, you would need some Agony resistance from infusions. This recipe may interest you:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lostshores/Vitality-Infusion-Mystic-Forge-Recipe

And that’s only a blue defensive infusion. What would a masterwork/rare/exotic/ascended infusion would require? What would those fancy omni infusions require?

Wow, they weren’t kidding when they were saying that Ascended and infusion content were a bridge to legendary items. All of that for just a blue infusion?

I’m very excited about the new patch as well! I ran some of the existing dungeon explorables, and it was really cool to see the new drops.

However, may I ask what was the motivation behind you and your friends’ return to the game? Was it “Woohoo new map/dungeon!” or “Woohoo new stuff to existing content!” and/or “Woohoo new item tier!”?

Coffeebot.3921:

axiology.5807:

Coffeebot.3921:

If you’d read what I’d typed from the beginning then you’d have the knowledge that I already said that WvW is the only place this really affects, but the problem with that is the people who want to have the best stats in WvW will do the content regardless of what it is or where it is and the people that think they want the best gear (to “compete”) will try to get it before complaining about the difficulty.

• In other words, people who want to WvW competitively (because that’s what they find fun) will have to do the content so that they can get the gear needed to start on the WvW?

That is exactly what grinding is, and that is exactly what GW2 was against. Let me give you the quote:

“It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee. " – Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto

Really? Because I interpret that as “We won’t require you to grind for levels” but it doesn’t say anything about gear OR levels, it just says a grinding treadmill… and that exactly fits what the legendary gear is… and the dungeons for gear… and the WvW gear (in relation to tokens) so really, it’s a bit late to complain about grinding.

Oh and competitive WvW doesn’t really exist, as there are FAR more factors than JUST gear which people seem to forget.

Legendary gear is cosmetic (until now at least). Crafted exotics are highly accessible to all players; they don’t require grind. Up till now, there have been accessible, no-grind gearing options.

Of course there are other factors in WvW. But you can’t brush off Ascended gear like that. There will always be other factors in everything. But as long as Ascended gear plays a part, it plays a part. You can’t disregard the impact of Ascended items because other factors are involved.

Coffeebot.3921:

I said for a PvE player which excludes WvW (as the person that I was arguing with said they were primarily a PvE player) and the PvE content is basically split into two section, dungeons and world content, world content is already easy with exotic gear, and dungeons can be completed with exotic gear just fine, adding more powerful gear will only make it easier which has no real benefit except for skins.

• Well, now it can be even easier with Ascended gear! Making world content and dungeons even easier IS an impact on PvE. Just because PvE is currently doable in exotics doesn’t mean that Ascended gear has no impact at all.

Coffeebot.3921:

If you’d read what I’d typed from the beginning then you’d have the knowledge that I already said that WvW is the only place this really affects, but the problem with that is the people who want to have the best stats in WvW will do the content regardless of what it is or where it is and the people that think they want the best gear (to “compete”) will try to get it before complaining about the difficulty.

• In other words, people who want to WvW competitively (because that’s what they find fun) will have to do the content so that they can get the gear needed to start on the WvW?

That is exactly what grinding is, and that is exactly what GW2 was against. Let me give you the quote:

“It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee. " – Mike O’Brien, Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto

Katreyn.4218:

I don’t think Exotics will die out anytime soon if ever. The chance of the actual armor Ascended items to have a rune socket and a infusion socket is slim IMO. Making the armor potentially not worth it in larger areas of pve aka outside of the areas with Agony/dungeon. And most people will still prefer using multiple sets of items for different scenarios.

With the availability of the Ascended tier, people would want multiple sets of Ascended items for different scenarios. That will require a lot of effort to get.

Also, Ascended items have rune socket bonuses built into their base stats. But as a higher tier than exotics, they are always better in terms of stats in a one-to-one direct comparison. This could potentially mean that in order to achieve those combinations that you currently get from exotics + runes, you have to grind a lot to get Ascended items with base stats in the combinations you want.

Magiofdeath.2745:

If Ascended gear were exotics with the protection against the new dungeon’s enemy, the majority of you would still complain. “QQ, we were promised we wouldn’t have a mandatory grind to get gear to do everything in the game (except Legendarys)”.

But the impact of dungeon-specific bonuses would be so much smaller. It wouldn’t impact WvW or the rest of PvE.

Also, there are already dungeon-specific bonuses—e.g. those sigils with +% damage to particular enemies found in dungeons. Those don’t get any complaints.

TheIronFistOfDeath.3016:

Terrible suggestion, no offense. If it really were the “only way for ANet to save face” it would be because their player base is a lazy and entitled bunch. Which, I’d like to think we are not, but the past few days have really made me question it.

There’s a world of difference between wanting gear handouts and wanting a game free of a gear treadmill.

From the discussion above, it seems that players would rather the stats of Ascended items be the same as exotics. That’s not lazy and entitled. Players just want to have the game free of gear grind—the game marketed to them.

“Watershed moment” is the perfect term to describe this.

GW2 was supposed to set a new precedent in gaming, a “revolution” if you will. There was even a manifesto! Players bought into the cause, supported the cause, and now three months later, the leaders of the cause have suddenly taken a stand that is alarmingly similar to what the original manifesto was once against.

It’s very heartening to see that players were really for the original principles of the game. As Valhallen said, the fanbase would have “stuck by them through just about anything”, because GW2 was more than a game, it represented a set of principles in gaming.

Now I don’t know. The messages we have gotten so far are very muddled.

Sylv.5324:

Play intelligently, and a tier’s difference in stats is pretty meaningless— it already is anyway.

If it’s meaningless, and if it’s already meaningless (those are your words), why have that tier at all?

Do players that want item progression want a meaningless illusion of progression? Would that satisfy their desire for progression? This alienates both players who want and don’t want the Ascended tier.

Sylv.5324:

The dungeon gear was mostly for its looks, not its stats, anyway, so I don’t see why they’d become obsolete.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are some combinations of stats that are available only through dungeons and hard to get sources (e.g. WvW and named exotic drops). These dungeons would be totally obsolete if they no longer offered an Ascended-tier alternative to those combinations of stats.

I second Zaxares’ suggestion. This will ensure that exotic items remain relevant in the process of item progression and it will reduce grind. Exotic items, after all, are not that cheap (despite the boasts of some players that they can get their full exotic sets in two hours or something).

Also, this will keep existing content related to exotic items (e.g. dungeons) relevant. It would be a waste to see them fall to the wayside because exotic items become obsoleted.

Shuguard.7125:

Cloud.7613:

Wouldn’t it be comical if Ascended item armor pieces don’t have rune slots so the stats are out classed by exotic with runes. Would make sense no?

Infusion slots in every piece.

I came to the same conclusion. Now i’m just watching how far the doom and gloom train can go. Best part is it was one ring to rule them all.

Then why would they even have Ascended items in the first place? To bridge the gap between rares and exotics I suppose.

Mr Crazy Moose.5760:

axiology.5807:

killcannon.2576:

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

axiology.5807:

Oh, but you don’t have to be 26% more powerful!

You do, if you want to participate in the new Fractals dungeon.

And any other new dungeons that will be introduced

You’re right, let me change that:

But you don’t have to be 26% more powerful, and those dungeons are totally optional!

Quite right! Nobody is forcing you to get the best gear for the job, it’s entirely optional!

And it’s not just best gear by 26%, it’s gear that is necessary in the dungeon because of the enemies’ Agony! But still optional!

killcannon.2576:

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

axiology.5807:

Oh, but you don’t have to be 26% more powerful!

You do, if you want to participate in the new Fractals dungeon.

And any other new dungeons that will be introduced

You’re right, let me change that:

But you don’t have to be 26% more powerful, and those dungeons are totally optional!

Oh, but you don’t have to be 26% more powerful!

Penence.1546:

noone is forceing you to do the dungeon. wvw can get the gear also. and really can anyone honestly tell me they would play the game for years with all the current items being it? A few maybe but the rest i doubt it. I wouldve played for awhile and got bored seeing as currently after ur exotic set theres map complete and farming orr to get a legendary, how is that different from running the same dungeon over and over again?

I can honestly tell you I would play the game for years with just the current tier of items. I did that for years with Guild Wars 1. I don’t know how many played GW1, but I’m pretty sure that’s more than a few.

Farming Orr to get a legendary is different, that was an optional cosmetic grind. We’re talking about stats changes now. This is a whole different league.

And adding Ascended actually widens the effort gap, because now there’s another tier to work on.

For a game that claimed to be grind-free or grind-optional, it has just introduced the ultimate in gear treadmills.

The Fractals of the Mists are designed to promote the dreaded gear treadmill. And this treadmill will NOT even give the sense of character progression that some want.

This is why:

1. Player plays Fractals with exotics, but hits wall at say, Round 5, because enemies are too hard by then.
2. Player grinds for the Ascended rings and back item.
3. Player plays Fractals, improved gear allows him to hit Round 8 this time. Player waits for other Ascended items to be released.
4. Player grinds for ALL the Ascended items.
5. Player hits wall at Round 15. It’s impossible to go on without better gear.
6. Player cries for higher tier of items to continue.
7. Higher tier is released, player grinds for them.
8. Player hits wall at Round 30.
9. Repeat crying and grinding and wall-hitting.

And so it continues. This is the ultimate never-ending gear treadmill. This treadmill gives you NO rest, NO satisfaction, because there is never a max you can hit until the next expansion, there will never be a time when you can face-roll and feel good about yourself. By design, the Fractals keep going. And you have to keep grinding.

This is an awful direction that Ascended items have set the game on. And the worse thing? There actually IS a genuine need for gear inspection now.

In GW1 there were times I played the later missions (which required GW1’s version of infusion to protect against the enemy’s infliction of Agony) without infused armor because I got new armor and forgot to infuse. Usually it was only a piece of two, so it wasn’t that obvious that I wasn’t infused. But naturally I was dying more than I should, and contributing less to the party than I should.

Ascended items and infusion are a terrible idea. They bring with them a whole host of other problems.

@Cyferwolf:

But the eventual Ascended armor and weapons cannot be worse or on par with exotic armor and weapons. If they were worse/equal, then nobody would want to get them. Why implement items that nobody wants to get?

Eventual Ascended armor and weapons will have to be superior to exotics in some way (I don’t know how) if they want to keep players working for it. Otherwise it’s a totally pointless addition.

I have to say this though, thank you Moderator for looking through this huge thread and for letting us know that you’re still here. Please, please pass our thoughts and concerns about Ascended items along to the developers. Thank you.

MrLee.6892:

I keep seeing this “Guild Wars 1 has this, Guild Wars 1 has that ect ect”.

This is NOT Guild Wars 1 people! This is Guild Wars 2! Change is going to happen, even if you like it or not! More people play Guild Wars 2 than Guild Wars 1, so ArenaNet is doing their best giving something for everyone to do! From the casuals to the gear progression players.

Posters are giving the example of GW1 to show that gear grinding is not necessary. And you are right, this IS Guild Wars 2, developed on the premise that there would not be grinding.

ThiBash.5634:

We don’t need it. We don’t want it. It shouldn’t be implemented.

That sums it up nicely.

Flynch.6034:

axiology.5807:

Flynch.6034:

Jezath.7395:

Look…. The new gear is maybe 1 or 2 points better than the current exotic level, if yoyu check carefully the items are exotic stats with exotic upgrades already applied. the infusion will not give stat upgrades it is to counteract the agony that prevents you from delving deeper into the dungeon. So please stop all this raging everyone

+1 This needs to be stickied and so much of this forum rage will go away.

You can augment your current gear and you will have better stats than the Ascended gear.

Uhh for the Ascended ring they showed, it was +5 power, +5 precision and +3% magic find better than an exotic ring with its exotic upgrade. And this is before the additional infusion upgrade. Don’t forget that each % of magic find is equivalent to a lot more of other stats.

Now multiply that boost by all your slots.

Currently we don’t know what the infusion stats do though, do we? I might have missed that if they were leaked, but afaik they could be something as simple as an increase in percentage against agony, rather than a physical stat increase. And it’s only the rarer items that will have this anyway.

If it’s a straight up stat increase then i’ll change my stance, but if it’s purely to make the dungeon ‘easier’ (which I truly believe will be the case) then that’s ok.

edit: also they might throw some new craftable upgrades into the mix for current gear.

Even without the infusion stat increase, Ascended items are objectively better than exotic items with exotic upgrades. And not by 1 or 2 points.

I’ll be very glad if they throw in craftable upgrades for current gear. Having multiple options to attain the same tier of gear (like the current exotic system) is always good, and this would keep existing gear and existing dungeons relevant.

Flynch.6034:

Jezath.7395:

Look…. The new gear is maybe 1 or 2 points better than the current exotic level, if yoyu check carefully the items are exotic stats with exotic upgrades already applied. the infusion will not give stat upgrades it is to counteract the agony that prevents you from delving deeper into the dungeon. So please stop all this raging everyone

+1 This needs to be stickied and so much of this forum rage will go away.

You can augment your current gear and you will have better stats than the Ascended gear.

Uhh for the Ascended ring they showed, it was +5 power, +5 precision and +3% magic find better than an exotic ring with its exotic upgrade. And this is before the additional infusion upgrade. Don’t forget that each % of magic find is equivalent to a lot more of other stats.

Now multiply that boost by all your slots.

MrLee.6892:

They are adding 200 crafting recipes btw….

The more you know…………

From the blog post:

Players will be able to acquire Ascended Rings in the Fractals of the Mists dungeon, and Ascended items worn on the back can be acquired through special Mystic Forge recipes.

There is no indication that Ascended items will be available through crafting, other than back items through the Mystic Forge.

saurus.8290:

Wagnard.4027:

Because the core devs that created GW1 without the gear gate content left ANet a long time ago.

you HAD to infuse your armor in GW1 to fight the mursaat so stop telling crap

But that infusion mechanic was different from this. You just had to do a fast and straightforward mission to get it on all the armor you were wearing. This “infusion” is the same in name only.

Norax.2405:

Where are they now?

From Wikipedia: ArenaNet co-founders Jeff Strain and Patrick Wyatt left ArenaNet to take roles at NCsoft West in 2008, and ultimately left NCsoft in 2009.

I’m not sure about the other developers.

wintermute.4096:

axiology.5807:

• The gem store sells cosmetic and convenience items. Presumably players who care about vanity items would be the ones that buy from the store. If gearscores become primary and cosmetics become secondary to the game—gem store loses out. Unless the store starts selling things like infusion boosters or Ascended-item-finder boosters. But this borders on being pay-to-win if infusion and Ascended items are necessary for completing Fractals.

Actually, no. If gear progression means we have to effectively replace our armor every major content update, people concerned about visuals will have to buy a full set of transmutation stones each update as well, just to keep their old looks. Now it does make sense that they did not simply go for the mechanically far superior and elegant solution of appearance slots.

Okay yes that makes sense now. Transmutation stones every update.

Italyguy.4128:

You people just like to complain, you hate the game so much yet you come here and whine. Quit the game, it’s better for everyone else who doesn’t act like a spoiled A…hole

The thing is we were really for this game and the principles it was built upon. Now those principles have changed.